Nick Fuentes

27:29But if you view the war that way, even if you're against it, you certainly wouldn't have the same feelings that say I have. You know, one of the things I was thinking about, I'll give this away if we do debate, that I would have asked Crowder or I would have asked, I would ask Andrew Wilson is like, are there any things a president could do that just on moral grounds alone, you'd go, I can't support this anymore. So like, let's just say hypothetically, let's say Donald Trump, all other things being equal, he ordered 20 ,000 abortions. I don't even mean voluntary abortions. I mean, involuntary, I mean, all abortions are involuntary in some sense, but the mother didn't even want them.

28:03They just ordered 20 ,000 abortions. I think you'd all concede, okay, we can't support him after that. And no more of this like, oh, the Democrats are worse. It's like just on basic moral grounds, you can't support. So, okay, that's kind of how I view this. Like I don't think, I'm against abortion because it's murder. I'm also against killing 168 little school girls because it's murder. So there's that element of it. There's also the element that it's fucking treason, dude. Like it's, okay, it's not literal treason. Obama having Jolani at the White House and giving foreign aid to Syria is literally treason.

28:37That is literally treason. By the way, they love bringing up that Iran killed our Marines, which is not exactly true. It was like groups in Lebanon who were friendly with Iran killed our Marines. Iran built all the roadside bombs that killed our boys. And also not exactly true. If you look into them, they were produced in Iraq. Now, they were used by some Shiite groups that were linked, that are like friendly with Iran, although we were partners with the closest to Iran. I know you know this stuff. But, you know, there was also a Sunni insurgency that we were dealing with for the most part. Jelani brags about how he was a member, how he was killing our boys in Iraq, that he was in Fallujah fighting.

29:20He was a member of the insurgency. Trump has him at the White House. Right. Not a peep out of all of these guys who are so mad about this stuff. So there's that like kind of treasonous element. You launched a war of aggression and slaughtered people on behalf of a foreign country. Like there it's not just the practical. I think there's also just like a moral argument that like we can't be a part of that. We can't excuse that away. That's how I feel. For me, to me, it's less about morality only because, and I know probably your audience is going to not love this, but I think that when a president engages in a war, these are things that do happen.

29:57It's horrible. It's tragic. But there is some truth to the fact that if we're going to conduct any foreign policy, it probably will involve military kinetic action. If that happens, then people will die. That's what happens in a war. For me, the question is more about it to the larger point. Who is the war for? And I think that it's not even so much about the morality of people dying in the war, whether they're civilian casualties or military casualties. It's the whole premise of MAGA and America first is America first. And and that is what animated the whole movement at 16. It was in contradistinction to Jeb Bush and the Bush dynasty and the legacy of Iraq.

30:33And to me, those are just the fundamental pillars. And, you know, not to keep going back to it, but Crowder said to me, it's a purity test. He said, you know, what could a president do to win your vote? I'm like, keep the promises they made. They said no new wars. Here's your new war. They said mass deportations. We're not getting them. You know, that's not a big ask. And what's more, let's be honest, the war in Iran is not like some isolated event. People are trying to analyze and they say, well, it's about energy dominance with China. Venezuela and Iran are part of this. We're boxing China in so they don't get their oil.

31:08And, you know, without even getting too much into that, it's complete context denial, which is that we've been conducting a foreign policy for 30 years where we systematically went into Iraq, Syria, Libya, Iran, all these countries to decimate them. And it actually doesn't fit a very clear through line or a narrative for American interest. You had all these different arguments. It's about spreading democracy. It's about chemical weapons. It's about nuclear weapons. The clear through line is these are all adversaries of Israel. This is part of their plan to to terraform the Middle East in such a way where they have no rivals.

31:43And this is, by the way, what they wanted and that no other president gave them. They wanted it under Bush, Obama, Trump. They tried to get it even under Biden. when they provoked Iran a couple of times in 2024, and Trump finally gave them the ideological neocons and Israel, what they've been wanting basically for 50 years, ever since the Islamic Revolution. And so you say, like, not only did you not deliver America first, but you repudiated America first with your allegiance to the biggest threat to it. And all these people are acting like, oh, well, you know, so what? It's not a big deal. It's only two weeks.

32:16It's only 30 days. It's only 15 casualties. And you say that's ignoring the bigger picture. He changed sides like he's with the enemy, giving them everything they ever wanted. Yeah, that's exactly right, dude. I mean, all of the never-Trumpers, all of the never-Trumpers, you know, I saw someone was posting today that National Review never-Trump issue. All these guys, Mark Levin and Ben Shapiro and all the guys who are championing this move with Donald Trump, they were all the people who said they would never vote for Donald Trump for moral reasons and all this stuff. and yeah dude it is pretty hard to ignore that this is the continuation of the clean break strategy we're just watching it they all said it in their own words for so many decades you just go back and read what they wrote um and we're to believe that this is like coincidentally the seventh country on wesley clark's list it happens to be and coincidentally it's the entire israel lobby that pushed him into it i will say it's been i mean look maybe this is a major theme anytime I feel like talking to you.

33:20But it is crazy how much the Overton window has moved on this. Where now, I don't know if you saw this, but both John Kerry, Hillary Clinton, there were a few others, but I mean these are two, the Democratic Secretaries of State and presidential nominees who came out and just said exactly what you said. They go, Netanyahu was always trying to get all of us to do that. Like this is just open now. It's just like, this is the obvious thing. It's like, well, yeah, we all know oh, Netanyahu's trying to get us into these wars, but you don't do it. You give them some, you don't give them all of them, you know?

33:51And then we're to look back at Obama as if he stood up to the Israel lobby or something like that. It's like he gave them Libya and Syria. So like he didn't really stay. But yes, even he did say, we won't do this one. Even George W. Bush stood up to Dick Cheney and the neocons on this one. And it was because of the military realities of going after Iran. It's been interesting to watch. I know like I've seen some of your coverage of this and I think both of us we're trying to be fair about this we were both kind of after the six-day war I certainly was questioning um because well frankly there were some people who I admire very much who did get a little out over their skis um I think Tucker and um uh Jeffrey Sachs and Mearsheimer probably all said variations of like if you attack their nuclear sites they will shut down the strait and they will hit our bases and that turned out not to be true like they so and and you look at that and you go huh maybe maybe they will just roll over maybe they will just capitulate i mean i don't think so but i'd still warn against this war because look of all these potential catastrophic outcomes and then we launched this one and it's like oh yeah we're here now this is what everyone was warning against and i don't know where you see this going but i think you know i'm not saying like Professor Pape is right and it's guaranteed that we're in the escalation trap.

35:13I hope Donald Trump just walks away at some point. It does seem though, at least right now, we're at this very dangerous position where the absolute best thing Donald Trump could do is just stop, just stop it and come home. And the problem is that there's just, that's it. And that's the end of his presidency, man. I mean, there's just no, and so like I saw Joe Kent, you know, he comes on and And he goes, you know, Mr. President, he's the only one strong enough to leave and save his presidency and say it was a win and all this. And I'm like, man, I hope he's listening to him. Like, that's who you should listen to?

35:49This guy who looks like a He-Man doll and is your sir, yes, sir. And OK. But if me and you are just speaking honestly, that's admitting total defeat. His approval rating will be in the 20s in the next couple months. If after this, that's all he has to show for it is that Iran is transformed into a global power who now has this ace in the hole. They can close the strait anytime they want. That's a disaster. And Donald Trump – and that's still his best option. But he has not even begun to accept that that's his best option and that he's going to lose like this. So again, I think this week he's going to escalate again.

36:24Then what's Iran's response to that going to be? So essentially the best case scenario is that Donald Trump's presidency is ruined. That's how I view it. I'm curious what your thoughts are. Yeah, I totally agree. And I do think that we're sort of trapped. That's really always been the whole conceit is that Israel, you know, we talk about it. People think we're using these terms loosely. I use them very precisely. They're dragging us into the war. And that means it's this step-by-step process where each individual step, it becomes more unlikely that we're able to extricate ourselves from it. That's sort of the whole point.

36:56It's like it's sort of slowly and then all at once you're in this conflict. Nobody from the very beginning would say we're going to go into a ground war and fight 90 million people in this huge country. But it starts with the industrial sabotage, the cyber attacks, nuclear assassinations. We're going to shoot down their missiles, engage the proxies. you know and this is how it's gone step by step over two years until now you know the 12-day war became this 60 75-day war whatever we're in and i think that the way it's shaking out if you want to get into the uh the details is there's two sticking points still and that is the first one which has been the one from the very beginning which is enrichment uh and the united states says you cannot have enrichment not at a low level there can never be a sunset clause there There needs to be a permanent moratorium and no enrichment at all.

37:47And why does Trump in particular have to insist upon this? Because he tore up the JCPOA. And what was the problem with the JCPOA? It sunsetted. It allowed them to enrich at low levels. And then after 10 years, it went away. So if Trump were to get anything less than zero enrichment, then he looks like an idiot. He looks like he got a worse deal or a deal just as good after we decimated them. So you go, it's been 10 years of maximum pressure, and we came crawling back to beg for the same deal back. It's a nonstarter. So conversely, Iran says our right to enrich is as sacred as the sovereignty over our soil.

38:24They equate enrichment with sovereignty for obvious reasons because it's their only deterrent against Israel and Washington engaging in this regime change, which is existential for the regime. So there's no wiggle room for either side. There's no coming down from those. And then the second one since the war is the strait. And the United States cannot accept that Iran gains the strait. Again, after we hit them with everything, now they have this strategic choke point. They have five times more oil under their control than before the war. And then Iran, likewise, they can't give up the strait. Why would they?

38:58They can close it. We can't take it back. And that is their deterrent against a future conflict, because that is how they impose a cost not only on us, but the whole world. If we were to try to and the two issues are related, because if we don't get the centrifuges in this go around, Iran knows we're coming back for round three to mow the grass, trim the grass. We're going to come back in, bomb the stockpile, the centrifuges, whatever. How do they prevent another U.S.-Israel crack at it? We got to have the straight under our control so that everybody knows we go back in. It's seven dollar gas.

39:35It's a global meltdown. The UAE, Bahrain, Saudi, they're done. They're finished after that. So those two issues are going to be the impasse. I don't see budging on either of them. It's just irreconcilable, intractable differences. And so I think you're totally right. At least in the short term, there's going to be a return to fighting. and then on a longer timeline look the thing that people never keep in mind unlike the u.s and north korea or the u.s and venezuela or cuba they don't have a country like israel sabotaging diplomacy and and provoking through deception and lobbying for escalation so even if you get someone like trump that says all right we're just going to call it i'm going to take the hit well is there someone you forgot to ask you know we need permission actually and they're always going to sabotage it so i think you're right i think i don't know that it's a certainty but yeah there's very few options where this works out for us yeah i i agree with all that and i think i agree it's not a certainty and and kind of the thing that makes it not a certain certainty is that donald trump himself is such a wild card and like you could see him just spinning it as how great it was but i don't think anyone will believe him but i think you're you're right about that particularly they're like the political incentives for Donald Trump are so bad.

40:51And then the survival incentives for Iran. And you, you could really watch from the 12 day war to this war, how much that you flipped the incentive structure. And it's like, in the sense that if someone comes to my house with a gun and they pull a gun on me and they go, you know, they're like, give me, and I'm like, okay, Hey, just calm down. What do you want? I'll give you my money, blah, blah. And then they go, no, I'm here for your kids. He goes, well, that just flipped the incentives, right? Like the first time my incentive was, let me give you my money. so that nobody gets hurt. But like, if you're here for my kids, then I have to make a move.

41:21And yeah, I might get shot in the process, but it doesn't matter. And it's like, it's kind of been that. Like in a way, we're there for their kids now. There's a parallel to us killing so many of their kids. But I agree with you. I think that there's a real question right now. And I worry about it because I've seen the hubris of leadership in DC is really, it's unbelievable. And it's unbelievable how many of these people, because they have so much power, convince themselves that they're such geniuses and can figure all of this out. But even the damage that this war has done so far, we don't really know.

41:54You know, like the Strait of Hormuz, I know you read the news just like I do. Since the blockade of the blockade, it's only slowed down the number of ships going through, like total number of ships. We've now been like two months of where 20 % of the world's oil and a huge percent of the world's fertilizer have been completely shut down. We probably won't exactly find out how much that impacts the global economy for another month or two. But it already might be really bad. But then the fact that, like, as you mentioned, gas prices here are already up. And it must be something for someone like you who was, you know, a hardcore Trump supporter in 2016.

42:31And not just a hardcore Trump supporter, but you were like a – it was like your coming of age kind of – like I was 18 when 9-11 happened. You were, I think, 18 in 2016. So like right around like that's like the big thing that's going on as you're becoming a man. And to watch some of the quotes that he's had where they ask him about the pressure it's putting on the American economy. And Trump just straight up goes like, I wasn't thinking about that. I'm thinking about this war. I'm thinking they can't have nuclear weapons. I don't care about. And you're like, dude, man, if that wasn't an ad for the Democrats, I don't know.

43:05I mean, you guys could just run that and win the House easy on this. It's pretty wild to say. Yeah, seriously. And, you know, in fairness, I think I mean, it's a horrible, stinking quote. You do have to consider it, though, from his perspective that obviously it's a game of chicken and it's a question of who's going to blink first. And Iran is betting on the fact that they have more leverage over us, more pressure because it's a midterm election year. Gas prices, inflation is going to hurt Republicans. Excuse me. And so I think Trump almost has to telegraph like I'm irrational. I don't care. I'm erratic.

43:41You don't have. So I can be sympathetic to that angle. But obviously, it's not good politics to say, you know, they ask them, they say, did you think about the financial prosperity of Americans? No, I didn't think about their financial security at all. I only care about whether Iran's nuclear. So it's it's a terrible thing. But, you know, with that being said, as far as the damage is concerned, people don't realize it's over after this. I really believe that the day I saw on the news today, they said it could be in the New York Times in the hundreds of billions of dollars, maybe even the trillions of dollars.

44:15And the reason being, especially in America, I talked about this on my show. The only thing that is driving economic growth right now is the AI boom. It is the purchasing of chips. It is the construction of these data centers. That is most of it. Like we're not even doing so much commercial real estate, the conventional stuff. It's all the data centers. and since this war started i think the number was 50 of all planned and in progress data centers had been paused and that is all the real estate boom in the country that's all the construction that's all the development and the reason being is because all the ai runs on electricity that that's what makes it economical is that you have cheap and plentiful energy and so if you have a huge energy shock which we haven't even fully felt the effects of that's something that lags behind because, you know, the oil goes out of the Strait and then it takes time.

45:08I think the last shipment of Persian Gulf oil arrived in Europe and Asia four weeks ago. So there's this month-long delay. Then there's rationing. Then let's say the Strait of Hormuz opens. How many ships go through? There's a lot of ships stuck in the Persian Gulf, and they're not all going to go out at once. It's going to take time even for those to get out and then, you know, for all the supply chains to recalibrate. So it hasn't even hit yet. And then once it does, like you said, there's going to be this ripple effect. It's not just the oil, it's the fertilizer. And then the energy and oil also affects groceries because it all goes on a truck.

45:44It all goes on, you know, transportation. So there's going to then be a following economic correction or a trailing economic correction that follows the energy shock. And then that's just game over. And to me, it's less so that he said the financial security, whatever, because it's like you kind of understand why he says that. To me, it's the he said at the exact same time that this was all playing out in February. In January and February, they were telling the hardcore Republican base, we're done with mass deportations. We're not saying anymore. We're not doing it. The surge in Minneapolis is over.

46:21They said, we're only now going after criminal illegal aliens. And moreover, they got a new DHS secretary. They got Christine Ohm out. And they said the new policy is we're not doing patrols. We're not going to go in people's houses. We're not doing these big operations in the cities. We surge, you know, 5 ,000 CBP and ICE. And they said the reason is too unpopular for the midterms. Way too unpopular. We're going to kill with Latinos. It's like, okay, so then you started the most unpopular war in modern history, which causes inflation and high gas prices. Isn't that what got Biden and Kamala to lose two years ago?

46:57So you say, I see what you're doing for them. Why can't you do that for us? Save Act can't do it. Mass deportations can't do it. All these things that the voters are told, politically impossible. You got to be practical. Think about the political realities of the Democrats. Oh, war with Iran? We need a$1.5 trillion military budget, and we're going to kill the Supreme Leader and we're going to get$6 gas. It doesn't even matter. And that's when you realize it is still the uni party. That's kind of the conceit is like MAGA is dead. Whatever Trump was doing in 16 is over. That like outsider challenge, it's not the same.

47:35He's part of the establishment. So to me, that's like the big picture when you really realize how it all works. Yeah, I mean, look, it's an undeniably great point that you're like, look, mass deportations would have been very messy, very unpopular. And in fact, some people might die, some people might get hurt. It's like, yeah, all of that is true about the war in Iran times 10. And it wasn't even your promise. It was you promised the opposite. So how about keep a promise that's unpopular instead of, you know, and, and, but you know, personally, I actually think there's a way that like deportations could have been done that would have remained popular.

48:09Because in fact, when Donald Trump came in in 2024, that for the first time in my life, super majorities of the American people supported mass deportations. And I remember talking about this on the show a lot. And I was like, look, that is true. But it's also a number on a poll. And if they get messy, that number will go down. And so you got to kind of like, you know, you got to fit factor all of that into it. But I mean, I guess that's part of the reason why I'm so upset about this, too. And why it gets frustrating when people are arguing. But you can't support the Democrats because they're so awful.

48:42And you're like, yeah, I know. that's the whole point man the whole point is that you had this opportunity in in 2024 like a huge opportunity in 2016 but then in 2024 in some ways a much bigger opportunity because well frankly of joe biden and the joe biden years really pushed the country to the right on social issues on immigration issues i mean you know people kind of forget this i think we talked about this last time you were here but like in my entire life i'm 43 the only time the culture's ever moved to the right was under joe biden yeah it has never happened to including under trump's for under trump's first term the culture moved far to the left from where it had been we became the pussy hat march and you know uh safe space country and all this shit and it wasn't until joe biden that actually has a reaction against him but so then donald trump comes in uh wins all the swing states wins the popular vote for the first time uh the democrats have like a 22 approval rating they're just defeated there this was a time when you could have done some awesome shit for the country and really ridden that wave and look as you said this is not it's like the things donald trump has out loud said things that should only be said on your show you know what i'm saying like like donald trump goes the adelson's give me hundreds of millions of dollars and they love israel more than they love america and they come in every day and want me to do things for israel and i always do it.

50:06Like, I thought that's supposed to be an anti-Semitic conspiracy theory here. Like, where, and you know, to your point, it's honestly like just demonstrably true, that at every level they're very good. Like, the lobby is very good at getting, because if you remember, you made the point about no nuclear enrichment at all, but Donald Trump, in the negotiations before the 12-day war, when he attacked him in the middle of, or Israel attacked him in the middle of negotiations, who knows exactly what happened there, he started he had made a couple comments about how like no i'm not demanding no enrichment whatsoever and then all of the like mark levin they're very good at this they get on him and they go well mr president if you're really tough and you are so tough then you'll demand no enrichment and that's you could see where trump's like susceptible to that and go yeah that is more badass you know that but that's the poison pill man it's like that little one thing just got two wars out of it because even though it seems like a subtle distinction it's like no that's the biggest distinction in the world because you're telling them they can't have a legal civilian nuclear program.

51:08And then, of course, as you mentioned, that's their deterrent that they're relying on. So, yeah, I completely agree with you with that. Hey, guys, let's take a moment to thank our sponsor for today's show. And this sponsor is very near and dear to my heart. It is Healthy Hibernation, which is the children's book written by my beautiful wife, Lauren Smith. It's a really sweet book. It's very wholesome and light and fun for the kids. And it's just got like a positive message about eating healthy, which is one of the challenges for parents today to navigate a world where your supermarket is filled with poison in brightly colored boxes that your kids all want to eat.

51:43And so the idea of this is a book for little ones to kind of start a conversation about eating healthy. It is available at Amazon. We've been blown away by the response so far. So thank you guys so much. If you have children or you have anyone in your life who has children, please pick up a copy of Healthy Hibernation by Lauren Smith over at Amazon.com. All right, guys, let's take a moment and thank our sponsor for today's show, which is Prolon. A lot of you have probably heard about these fasting diets. That's a big thing these days. People are doing these diets where they give up food altogether for long periods of time, and there's a lot of benefits in them.

52:14The problem is that you have to give up food, which is something I certainly wouldn't be willing to do. But now Prolon has solved this problem. Prolon is a revolutionary plant-based nutrition program that nourishes the body while tricking cells into thinking that they're fasting. So they basically keep your body in a fasting state, but you don't actually have to give up food. And this all starts with Prolon's five-day program. Soups, snacks, and beverages all designed to keep your body in a fasting state. So you get all the benefits of a fasting diet without having to give up food. That's the idea.

52:46To learn more, go to prolonlife.com slash P-O-T-P. That way you can get 15 % off the five-day nutrition program. So that's prolonlife.com slash P-O-T-P for 15 % off your five-day nutrition program. Highly recommend you check it out, guys. All right, let's get back on the show. Now, as far as your point about, well, this is part of negotiating in a war, I get your point. I get where he does have to seem like a madman. I guess the problem is not so much just that he said it. The problem is that he actually did it. Like the problem is that he actually did sacrifice the economic well-being of Americans for Israel.

53:23And not – look, I mean, as you know, the WMD thing is as much bullshit with Iran as it was with Iraq. This was never over their nuclear threat. And they wanted to overthrow them before they were even like – before they even had a nuclear program. This is always just the thing that they know will sell with the American people. They've done focus group testing on this. I think it was Frank Luntz. It was like back in the 90s when they were focus group testing on – Scott Horton taught me about this. He had a great note on this. But so they were doing these focus groups about the war in Iraq and they were like, hey, how do you feel about us fighting this war to liberate the people of Kuwait?

53:55And Americans are like, eh, what? And then they go, what about a nuclear threat? And everyone was like, all right, well, that is something we'd have to go take care of. This is why they use – we all know what this is about and it's not even about Iran. It's about Lebanon. And it's about Iran supporting Hezbollah and Israel wants to take southern Lebanon. Very coincidentally, they've been taking southern Lebanon during this war. And it's like, look, however you feel about that, which I'm against it, but however you feel about that, like you said, it's treasonous in spirit to say in order to help them achieve this goal, we are going to sacrifice our people.

54:32And what could be more the antithesis of the fundamental Trump promise, which was that we don't want to do that. We don't want to sacrifice America on behalf of the world or some global ambition because that doesn't really matter to us. Right. Well, and, you know, I think the original appeal of Trump is this idea that he was going to do the things that were unpopular, but that were necessary for the country. You know, and he would always say that even 40 years ago, there was a famous interview. I think it was in the 70s where he said, you know, I don't know that I would ever run for president because, you know, the things that you need to do would be unpopular and you can't always be the popular guy and so on and so forth.

55:13And it's like, you know, getting back to the generational coalition in 2024 that won this election. I remember the exuberance when we won in 24, when Trump won in 24. They were calling it a golden age. It was RFK Jr., Elon Musk. You had all this political capital to fix a lot of things that would have been unpopular to do, like Doge cutting the deficit and cutting the debt. Mass deportations, building the wall. All those things they promised to do, and they squandered that political capital, the$7 gas, the inflation, unpopular, on the war. And you think about what if in an alternate timeline, they took the$200 billion from the big, beautiful bill for DHS, and they actually did mass deportations and followed through.

55:59Trump's approval rating would go down. People would die. It would get ugly. But the right wing would rally behind him. They would say, because we're fighting for America. They would say, this is existential. Getting these illegal aliens out, it is on some level about taking control back from the Democrats. It is about taking control back from foreigners, putting Americans first. And so you'd say, you know, we feel good about this. We feel good about the conflict. It's ugly. There's going to be a cost. There might even there would have been inflation. The Wall Street Journal was always warning about that, saying you deport all these illegal aliens.

56:31Labor costs goes up. Demand goes down. You're going to get some inflation. But people would have been on board because of what it is. Same thing with the indictments, like you mentioned earlier about Obama with Tulsi Gabbard in June last year or the Clintons, for that matter, or any of them. People really would have been there for it, but they squandered all those things in pursuit of another country's priorities and foreign policy or even domestic policy. And there's one thing that stood out to me when this conversation was happening. When we launched this war in Iran, all the Trump supporters had to defend it.

57:06You know, this cadre of influencers. And I remember there was one line they kept using. They kept saying, I can't believe we squandered this generational coalition. The generational coalition was supposed to be about immigration and all this other stuff. And you almost want to grab these people by the head, by their ears and shake them and say they don't care about those issues. They're not squandering it. They're spending it. This is what it was for. You know, in the mind of like, and I know you're a libertarian, so I think, you know, we can kind of see it for what it is. There are a lot of these heritage Americans, white nationalists, immigration restrictionists, and in their mind, they're on the team.

57:49The Twitter posters are in the White House and Trump is looking out for them so they don't encounter diversity that makes them uncomfortable in their neighborhood. And so this whole thing was about, you know, getting those illegals out and making America a Norman Rockwell painting. And you want to say, no, you were the mark. The generational coalition was banking Tim Mellon, tech, Elon Musk, Andreessen Horowitz. It was the donor class, which was 60 percent of the donations for Trump in 24 in first from 16 to get a 10 percent corporate tax cut, a war in Iran, annexation of the West Bank, southern Lebanon, Gaza, moratorium on A.I.

58:29regulation, bring Palantir and Little Tech and PayPal mafia into the White House and get them all these contracts. that that was actually the purpose of the generational coalition. And then, oh, you're sour grapes and going home. They don't care. They got what they wanted from you. You voted it into office. Now they confer all the privileges on the donors. This idea that it was, hey, get your pitchforks and torches. We're taking the country back. That was a scam to get you to vote for this interest based agenda. So that's the part where to me it's like you just don't understand what politics is yeah yeah no i think i listen as as a libertarian that's exactly right it's just that you don't understand the nature of this game and you've got it you've got this conception of you're on a team or this and none of this is real and and look i do look man i mean i i understand uh people out of out of desperation people wanting to believe in something.

59:27It's much, what we're asking people to swallow is much grimmer than what Steven Crowder is asking them to swallow. And so there's a part where I understand people not wanting that to be the case. I probably was to some degree guilty of this, although I was always very guarded because I knew, you know, the Trump track record. But it was like, hey, look, they actually did try to throw him in jail this time. They actually really did try, maybe even tried to assassinate, you know, who knows exactly. And he's coming in And hey, he's putting Tulsi Gabbard at DNI now. And like, hey, maybe, hey, his son is tweeting at me that we're going to keep all the neocons out.

1:00:01You're like, all right, let's go. But this is almost what's frustrating with some of those guys. Like, hey, I'm down to be on the team. You just got to give me something, like something that's a reasonable, there's something in it for us. But man, when you think back, as you're saying this, it reminds me. I think a lot of people forget this. But one of the huge appeals of Donald Trump, I mean, really, this was up there with one of the things that he said that people loved in 2016. was that he basically made the argument that because he's rich, he's uniquely in this position where I don't need any of these donor monies.

1:00:35Now, this was one of the first broken promises of Trump's. And everyone just kind of let it go because, again, I think people were kind of desperate. They had never had anything like Donald Trump before. And it's very easy to start making excuses to yourself. Yeah, whatever. He'll take some money, but he's still fucking true. He's still pissing off CNN. Yeah, I know he lies all the time, but like whatever. He lies about little stuff, you know, whatever. the kind of coping mechanisms are. But he used to openly say, like, Marco Rubio, he used to say, Sheldon Adelson wants to make Marco Rubio his puppet.

1:01:03I don't need his money. I won't be that guy. And it is kind of amazing to go, he just went from being that to just being like, that's the whole thing. Like, essentially, the whole operation is like an Adelson op. And he openly admits it. And do you remember in 2016 when he did – he said the thing – and I don't even know how like red-pilled you were yet at this point. But he had said – there was one point where Donald Trump had said just like off the top of his head as he typically would do in an interview where they asked him where he stood on Israel-Palestine. And you remember back in 2016 – this was one of the most fun parts about Trump's run in 2016 is that a lot of times they would ask Donald Trump a question.

1:01:46and he would kind of go like... And you could tell that in that moment he was figuring out what his policy was on this issue. Like it was – like remember when Chris Matthews goes like, so you're pro-life? And he's like, I'd have to say I'm the most pro-life there is. And he goes, so should a woman go to jail for murder if she aborts? And he goes, I'd say yeah. I'd say yeah. That's not even the position of pro-lifers in America. You know what I mean? Which is like an interesting thing we could get into. But like that's actually not most pro-lifers. But that's a very, very fringe view even amongst pro-lifers.

1:02:16But he doesn't know. So they ask him about Israel-Palestine. And in his typical Trump way, he's just going on instinct and saying what he thinks. So he just goes, I'd say we should be neutral. We should be neutral and we should stay out of it. We should be friends with that. But saying you should be neutral to the Israel lobby is like saying we should eat Jewish babies. Like there's literally no – saying we should be Adolf Hitler if you say we should be neutral in Israel-Palestine. And then he got a lot of heat for it. And then you remember he went to AIPAC? Yeah. And he gave this speech. This is when I started taking him very seriously politically.

1:02:46because I was like, it's one thing to be able to move a lot of people in Alabama, or it's one thing to be able to talk to red state America, working class people. It is a different thing to be able to get a standing ovation from the Israel lobby. You know, that's like, that means a lot in Washington DC. And so he goes there and how does he win them over? Well, he's Donald Trump. So first he goes, Obama makes very stupid deals. I believe in smart deals. and the worst deal ever made was the JCPOA, the Iran deal. I don't even know if he knew JCPOA, but he said the Iran deal. And they're standing ovation for that.

1:03:20So anyway, just reminding people that originally, at least openly, Donald Trump's instinct was to be neutral and not be involved. That got the Israel lobby to attack him. And to get them off his back, he promised them he would tear up the JCPOA. Which is kind of crazy. And here we find ourselves all these years later in the war that was prevented by that agreement. Well, you're right. And those are two things that I bring up on my show that people forget because people say like, oh, well, Trump has always been pro-Israel. That's always kind of been part of the deal. And it's like, no, it really wasn't.

1:03:51I mean, in 2015, early 2016, you're right. I remember that interview well. And he said, we're going to be neutral. We're going to treat both sides fairly. And he went, I don't know if it was AIPAC or RJC, but like you said, he said that thing about Rubio, I think in December 15, where he said, oh, well, he's going to take your money. He's your puppet. I'm not going to take your money. And I even said this in 24. And at the time, I know a lot of people didn't take it seriously because it didn't sound like real or like concrete. I was saying, like, he's going to bring us to warn Iran. He's not going to do the deportations.

1:04:23But I also said that the prospect is different, like or rather the proposition of Trumpism is different, because like you said, and this is the most important thing. When you go back to 16, Trump said, I'm rich. I'm a billionaire. I'll self-fund my campaign. That is why I can fix America. Like there's a very clear logical chain where he says the system is broken. The politicians are all talk, no action. They never deliver real victories. Why? Because they are controlled by the donors. I alone can fix it because I'm so rich. I'll self-fund my campaign. I will run the government like a business.

1:05:03I'll hire and fire at will. And that's why I can bypass all of the gridlock, all these problems that have prevented real change. And that was another big aspect of it, as he would say, it's not just going to be these like political wins. He said, no, we're going to deliver a real win. He said, I'm literally going to take this country and make it great again. And what you're getting at 16 is totally different than from 24, where they're like, you go to these people and say, well, he said staple green cards to diplomas. He said we're going to bomb Iran, basically. He said there's really no plan to do mass deportations.

1:05:40And people would say, you know, once you get past all that golden age stuff, they say, yeah, well, it's going to be better than a Democrat. And you go, OK, but like lesser to evils, better than a Democrat. Wasn't the whole point that he was going to like break the system? I'll never forget that debate. I don't know if it was the South Carolina debate or maybe the one before that, but there's that viral clip where he goes, you know, we needed tickets for the television audience. You can't get them. You want to know who's in the audience? Donors, special interests. And people, if you watch that clip now, everyone in the comments says, oh, now I get why he got elected.

1:06:15Like now I get I'm left wing. I'm Democrat. Now I see it. And it's like, yeah, that's what created the cult of personality. That's created diehard Trump supporters. And it's like Tucker points us out. It's like Animal Farm. It's like the revolution has betrayed itself. Now he's just like the others. And that's where you say this is now dead. This wave has crested. It's not dynamic anymore. Now we need to look for the next wave because because this will only disappoint us in the future. So that's a very good point about the self-funding. And you're right. Almost nobody talks about it. Yeah, it just kind of went away.

1:06:49But look, I mean, I think that was also, I guess, kind of part of the disconnect of where me and you are on this versus where like Crowder is on this, where it's like, look, let's, it's very easy, especially for guys like us. It's very easy to have your own narcissism, you know, fuck with you because it's just the world where there's a camera in front of us. We're on. You get a lot of people watching your thing and you can feel like you're an important person. But like at the end of the day, the truth is that me and you aren't really going to determine. anything that happens here. I'm like, oh, you guys cost us the midterm.

1:07:20No, the Trump administration cost us the midterm. There's nothing I could say that would change the reality on the ground. You know, like this is what it is. But I think in some way, people also don't understand how uniquely positioned Donald Trump was. Like there are so many factors, so many stars that aligned for Donald Trump to do what he did in 2016 and in 2024. Like he was the most famous guy in the world. He was the rich guy. He was so brash. He was so camera ready. Like there's just like all these things that come together. Like Republicans have won two popular votes in the 21st century.

1:08:01Okay. Like to go back to the third, you have to go back to like when I was 15 or something like that. You know what I mean? Like it's really bad. George W. Bush, they won in 2004, which was if you can, you know, because I'm a little bit older than you. Like if you, 2004 was five years after the 1990s. It was a different country than we are today. And we were in a war. And even though the war wasn't going good, it was like, don't go against the president in the middle of a war. It was still kind of a big thing. Since then, no Republicans have won the popular vote. Donald Trump got it this last time.

1:08:29People do not understand the gap between what Donald Trump has versus what Marco Rubio has, what J.D. Vance has. It was already a huge ask for them to carry this coalition forward. Like, it's over, dude. It has nothing to do with how me or you feel. You know, that's it. None of these guys can win. This administration has an approval rating about where George W. Bush's was after two disastrous wars and an economic collapse. This isn't a matter of me or you. It's like, no, listen, dude. The only option here is that another outsider emerges, which is possible. No one would have picked Donald Trump at this point.

1:09:10We'd be in 2014. no one would have picked Donald Trump was going to be president in 2016. So like there are some, maybe someone will emerge and Cracker kept saying to you, yeah, but that comes with risks. It's like, yeah. Nothing doesn't come with risks. Your plan comes with risks. The risk of your plan is that either Gavin Newsom or AOC will be president. You want to just say, put the blinders on, forget that we just launched a war for a foreign country, which is the most hated country in the world, which is a country that the American people have rejected, do not want this. You blame, You want to blame the critics of it for the loss?

1:09:42Okay. Let's, you know, if we had time machines, let's run a different experiment where me and you both get on board. We stay on board with the administration. We'll just go down in flames anyway. It's not going to change anything. Well, and, you know, I would say he kept saying if we burn it all down, go for the Democrats, et cetera, he said, you know, there's this big risk then that the Democrats are going to win. And I said, well, let's think about possibilities. So if we have someone from the administration run like Vance or Rubio, let's think about what Vance and Rubio would do that Trump would not.

1:10:16If we can agree that Trump is unsatisfactory, he's betrayed many of the promises. And at the minimum, like you even said earlier, to the extent that he's doing anything, he's not solving it. Deporting 500 ,000 people, let's say that's the number. Is that a drop in the bucket even? Even if Biden imported 10 million and you deport 1 million, you're not even like net negative from where Biden was, let alone where we were before Biden was elected. So he didn't solve it. But like you said, Trump has this cult of personality. He uniquely wields the people as like sort of a distinct political force. Rubio and Vance, they don't have that cult of personality.

1:10:56They don't have control over the party. They don't have that popular support. and what's more, they don't have that like independent mind. Like Trump created this political revolution. He is an outsider. He does actually even have, you could argue his own ideology, this like pro-protection, anti-war, nativist sort of thing. So are Vance and Rubio going to be better than Trump? And if so, how? How are they going to stand up to the Israel lobby? How are they going to be more immigration restrictionist? I don't think anyone would really believe that. And so you either get a continuation of that, you know, if it's even possible, they win because they're attached to this administration.

1:11:38You either get a continuation of this, which we all recognize is not a solution for anything. The best people say is it's worse than or rather it's better than total destruction under Democrats. Or they say something like, well, it's buying us time, buying us time. It's letting us have some sort of like salutary neglect, like the Democrats aren't killing us with censorship and debanking. That's best case scenario. Worst case scenario is it's a Democrat. And so you say that's a scenario where there's no winning option. Victory is not a possibility on your timeline. So what you're doing is you're playing not to lose.

1:12:13You're hoping that we don't get the worst thing. We don't get the worst defeat condition. But you're not even really concerned about how we win. How do we get mass deportations? How do we get the rest of it? At least if you say we're going to punish Republicans like this administration needs to fail. Everyone in it needs to burn down and be weakened by it. At least then there's a possibility in 28 that the Trump administration alum are so unpopular, even in a primary, that somebody else could actually emerge and then run. Because the biggest concern is that, look, we all know this. The party is consolidating around Vance or Rubio, the money, the actual party apparatus.

1:12:54And what they're going to try to do is make it so there isn't a competition. They're going to make it so that there's one clear guy, probably the Trump backs, someone from the admin like Vance Rubio. That person is going to get 70 percent of the vote. There's going to be a bunch of also rands and they're just going to jam that guy through so he can campaign really without a primary fight throughout 27 and 28. And then, you know, lock it up for the next four years. And so the biggest threat actually is that that candidate will be too strong and suffocate any possible challenger, any dark horse, an outsider.

1:13:29And by the way, if we get an outsider, that might be your victory. That might be your victory condition where it is someone who was from that Trump coalition, saw where it went wrong, wants to fulfill the promises of it without kind of rejecting the fundamental premise. someone like that can emerge and then you know if that person wins then maybe that person can actually deliver the victory but that's why i say you know people are always saying like well who's that person gonna be you don't know if that's even gonna happen it's like we have to create the possibility that we can win otherwise we're accepting defeat like you said earlier either we go on 90 miles per hour or 85 miles off the cliff to be honest i'm not even sure it's 85 this might be just as fast dude it's just a different thing I mean it's like in the same sense like why do I hate the Democrats it's like I don't know because like they I don't know they're fiscally insane they opened our borders this is chaos and destruction they push this trans insanity on little kids this is evil abortion is murder this is death it's like this is all destruction and death it's just this is all horrible I'm not actually sure which one is worse to be honest.

1:14:41They're all very bad. And, you know, I guess maybe one of the things that's kind of frustrating about even having these debates is that it is it's nuanced and it's complex and it's broad. And like, for example, OK, so Pat Buchanan, who is really a hero of mine, I'd imagine like someone you would really admire as well. Brilliant conservative. He would always come back and support the Republicans. Yes. You know, yes. He would eviscerate them. I But he'd always come back and support them. And so he would be totally against George H.W. Bush in 92 because he's furious about the Persian Gulf War. Although he never really made that as central of an issue as I think he should have.

1:15:24But, you know, who am I to pick on a great man like that? But then he'd come back and he'd primary him. But then he'd lose and he'd come back and he'd get that great famous culture war speech from Pat Buchanan at the RNC. Which is, by the way, anyone should go listen to that speech. So beautifully done. I really admire great speech writing. He was a great speech writer. But anyway, so but that speech, the context of it is that he's at the RNC to bring the Buchanan. What did they call it? The Buchanan Brigade back into the Republican Party. And he would make arguments like, hey, look, I mean, look, we feel how we feel.

1:15:59We disagree on all these issues. But whose Supreme Court justice picks are you going to like more? George H.W. Bush or Bill Clinton? On environmentalism, he's better. On tax policy, he's better. on all these days. And like, now I tend to kind of disagree with that. And I loved Ron Paul. Ron Paul would never come back and endorse the candidate. But you know, the thing is that in 1992, I can understand Pat Buchanan's argument. Because if you have a generally healthy country, and we could get into debating whether we were generally healthy or not. But compared to today, we were a much healthier country, you know, much less divisive politically.

1:16:32The demographics were, were, you know, what traditional American demographics had been for most of the time, which, you know, are conducive to less cultural divides, let's say. We were not$40 trillion in debt. We were not like a failing empire. You know, things were – and in a healthy society, it kind of does make sense to go, look, I know there's a wish list of what we want, but let's go for better rather than worse. again when you have stage four cancer and you're terminally ill that's like when you go like no if we just get what is maybe slightly better we die like this nation dies if we do that so i guess part of it is that we're just arguing that like no the situation is actually that dire right now that we have to go for something better than this well that's the nail on the head and you know i would even say something more controversial which is and no one's gonna like this you more controversial than me well controversial for our for people that like us for the fans but they need to hear this i respect pat buchanan he's brilliant obviously off the charts brilliant great writer red pilled me with death of the west and great everything but he is a loser and i don't say that to be nasty but he lost he lost three times right he lost in 92 96 lost for reform in 2000 and you know it's funny sam francis who was a friend of his he wrote an article about his endorsement of bush in 92 and said that was buchanan's biggest mistake i've never read that oh that's very interesting yeah i'll send it to you yeah please do but he and he wrote it at the time and said that that's buchanan's mistake is that he always comes back to support the gop why you're at war with them they're the enemy they're the problem and it's because he is the congenital conservative.

1:18:19And by conservative, I don't mean right wing. It's this risk aversion. He's not revolutionary. He's a reformer. And so in the end, they will always come back to the vomit. The dog will always come back to eat his vomit. They will always come back to endorse the conservative. And I think, by the way, that's now why there's this people are becoming more comfortable with Pat Buchanan because 20 years ago he was kicked off MSNBC for suicide of a superpower, which he was going to call the death of whitey. That was actually the original title. Is that true? Yes. No. San Francisco says this. Yeah. Is that true?

1:18:51So there was a chapter in the book called like the end of white America. It was like close to that. One of the chapters. Great book, by the way. Suicide of a superpower. Highly recommend it. But that was going to be the title. And point being is he was super controversial back then. You know, Shapiro called him a Nazi in 2016. He's all right. Whatever. Now, I feel like people are coming around to his legacy. Some of these heritage Americans, pro-Trump people, they're embracing him. But why? Because he lost. And when you lose, you become inert. You're no longer threatening. And I love Pat Buchanan.

1:19:27However, Francis also wrote a book called Beautiful Losers about the conservatives and basically saying that conservatives are so principled, but they lose all the time. Like we're losing the culture war. We're losing the immigration war. And they would rather lose as the civil principled, whatever, whatever you want to say about them, you know, these kind of like Rockefeller Republicans and actually get dirty and fight and win. And in the end, is it not the paleo cons that were the beautiful losers? Is it not those people that, you know, they kind of went down without a huge, ugly fight? And I think about what is different between Buchanan and Trump in 2016, when Trump was running in the primary, they said, will you endorse the eventual nominee if you don't get it?

1:20:11And Trump said, no. He said, I have a lot of leverage. He said, so I'd like to run as the Republican, but if I can't have the nomination, then maybe I'll run independent. And they said, well, Hillary Clinton will surely win. And he said, well, yeah, then I then elect me as the Republican. Otherwise, I'll tank the whole thing. And to me, that's like and I told them that actually at the dinner, I said, that is when you were at your apex because you were playing to win. That's what I knew you were serious. You weren't just going to say, well, if I win, I win. If I don't, I guess we'll just have Republicans.

1:20:42It's like that burn the boats mentality. That's what we we as the base need to develop that kind of consciousness or that leadership. No, I get what you're saying. I'm sorry to keep picking on Stephen Crowder. It's nothing against Stephen Crowder. It's just that literally this is what I'm thinking of when you say this. But so when I was debating Stephen Crowder, he was very upset that I had called for Trump's impeachment. I had called for Trump's impeachment because of the 12-day war. Because to me, I'm like, yeah, you just launched an illegal war and this is what we all voted against. And yeah, I'm for it.

1:21:14Now, Crowder starts then getting into this argument. He's like, but if we impeached Donald Trump, then Nancy Pelosi has – and I was like, well, first off, that would put J.D. Vance in as president. But then at a certain point I went, Stephen, when I say we should impeach Donald Trump, you realize I'm not a congressman who's introducing articles of impeachment. I have no – there's no point that I believe this is going to result in this process and then the benefit of that process. is that obviously all I'm saying is like, I publicly supported Donald Trump and now I am saying in the loudest possible language that I'm out, I'm done.

1:21:50And I do think there's part of my thinking there was along the lines of what you're saying, where it's like, no, look, dude, this only works if there's like a profit and loss system. Like there has to be like, okay, you promise me no new wars, I publicly support you. You launch a new war, I publicly, not just like don't support you, but like, fuck you, die a million deaths. You'll never get my support again. Because otherwise, like, I don't know. There's just gotta be some type of incentive for like, if you wanna come do this. I don't know, we don't have much, but the one thing we do have is that we can very publicly say, no, Vance, Rubio, none of you are getting this coalition.

1:22:30And therefore, at least there's some political incentive of like, someone wanna come pick up this coalition or not. I do agree with you that, or at least I agree, you know, I don't think Patrick Buchanan's a loser, but politically, I get your point. He did lose. I think that there's something, especially now when super majorities of the American people are against this war. Super majorities of the American people are against Biden's immigration policy. You know, super majorities are against the woke trans insane shit. Super majorities think that inflation is the number one issue. when you have that type of dynamic we should be playing to win like why can't we win this country you know what i mean like there is not it is if there was an open primary right now now don't get me wrong if some like i want to be honest about this if someone were to run on your most radical views or my most radical views they probably could not win with that right but if there was like open primaries on the democrat and republican side right now and someone were to run on a full separation of Israel and America, like we're treating it like church and state, a full separation of Israel and America, dissolving the Israel lobby entirely, if they were to run on closing the border and an immigration moratorium, if they were to run on fiscal sanity, no new wars, like there are major pieces here that that could absolutely be a winning coalition in this country.

1:23:55That was not the case when Pat Buchanan was running. That wasn't the case when Ron Paul was running for president. And so like we do live in a new dynamic with new realities. And I agree with you. I think we shouldn't be we shouldn't concede that. Well, if it's a little bit better than the Democrats, then we support it. And we shouldn't concede that like, hey, you go out there and you completely lose. But you were politically noble and you made some good points. And that's enough, because at the end of the day, none of that saves the country. Right. Well, and think about it. What if Buchanan had not endorsed George Bush?

1:24:28He would have lost anyway. And what would have been the lesson in 92? It's like, maybe we should have been more conservative. Maybe in 96, we run somebody that gets the Buchanan. Well, by the way, just to even strengthen your point here, right? Because when he's given the culture war speech at the RNC in 92, he's already lost. George H.W. Bush goes on to lose to Bill Clinton anyway. So the Buchanan Brigade did not make the difference. But if he had withheld that, it may have been seen as maybe that would have made the difference. Exactly. That's what I'm saying. It would have been ambiguous. And more to the point, we have to think about those second and third order consequences.

1:25:05People say, well, you know, what if a Democrat wins? Yeah, what if? What you're talking about is moral hazard, which is if there's no consequences for your actions, then they will get away with anything. And I said this to Crowder. It's like, dude, we're in a war with Iran. At what point will you stop supporting Trump? What would he have to do to lose your support because if you're willing to tolerate that, you'll tolerate anything. And if you tolerate anything, you will be forced to tolerate anything. That's sort of where we are. And so it's important to now and again, and like I said, I said this to Crowder, like I wouldn't want a Democrat to become the president because I think that's really bad for everybody.

1:25:47But where you can and where it makes sense, you have to impose some kind of a cost just Just so you tell them, like, we will not put up this, put up with this. We will not tolerate it. And I always tell people that's just playing both sides. That's just basic game theory. And by the way, everybody else does it. The donors do it in particular. How many of these pro-Israel people were lifelong Democrats until October 7th? And then they threw their weight around behind the Republicans to get concessions. Same thing with little tech. How many Elon Musk? Was he ever a Republican up until a few years ago when he started getting heat from the Biden DOJ and getting all these problems?

1:26:25No. Tulsi, Bobby. Yeah, exactly. And they will move their money around whoever is going to help them. The donors do it. By the way, the Israel lobby does it. Ben Shapiro in 16 said, you know, let Hillary Clinton win. Trump, we can't trust him. He's not a real conservative. So we just need that kind of leadership and kind of like our mojo as the base to say we need to be in the driver's seat, not people telling us, oh, we'll get them next time. Oh, well, we built 36 inches of wall or whatever. That's how we got to think going forward. Millions of inches. Yeah. Well, no, I mean, a good example of that would, I don't know if you saw this, but when Donald Trump first announced the ceasefire with Iran, Mark Levin was out there like really counter signaling him hard.

1:27:11Right. What do you mean, sir? They still have all the enriched uranium. They're still supporting the proxies. This terror regime still stands. So it's not like they won't flip on a dime. So essentially, why shouldn't I do the same thing? And I do got to say – and I'm sure you feel this way too to some degree at least, right? But there seems like there's kind of a thing where, OK, because of the mix of where technology kind of grew and people's disgust with the regime and the corporate media being exposed for being liars, this whole industry has been revolutionized. And now for the first time, things that are much different than, say, Pat Buchanan's days or Sam Francis's days are that – I shouldn't say – Pat Buchanan's still alive.

1:27:54But I mean the days where he was running for president are like we kind of have a fighting shot in the conversation now. We actually get to get our rebuttal heard as well. So there's – now there's still dynamics where there's certain groups like I think probably you are demonized to a lot of baby boomers and they don't get to hear from you. Like they hear about you through someone else, but they may not like actually hear like what you're really saying. But for huge other swaths of an audience, they get to hear your side also. And this is true for me too. And this is true for a lot of us. And broadly speaking, people, let's say, who have been – because me and you represent different worldviews and different principles.

1:28:35But broadly speaking, let's say the people who are critical of Israel or critical of this war or critical of open borders or critical. We've gotten to be in the debate. We've gotten to have a chance to have big public debates, to have big public shows. And we have just won. We have won the argument with the American people. Like there just is no question. Like who is – if you look at like me and you and then say throw in like Tucker and Candace and Megan or just like broadly speaking, the people who are more critical of say this move in a rant versus Lindsey Graham. Like we've won the argument.

1:29:16I keep doing these debates but at this point I almost say like the debate's over. This is just a formality. When I go on Piers Morgan today to debate a Zionist, it's like I've already won. We know I've won. we know you've like this side has dominated this is a pro-palestinian country at this point like it's and yet we still lose the policy and there is something about that that's fucking intolerable like no fuck you we like and this is this is the most little d democrat i'll ever be in my life but like there is something like hey no we had the open debate we had the marketplace of ideas and you guys got fucking schooled so why the fuck should mark levin still get no one thinks mark Levin got Donald Trump elected, but Tucker Carlson played a major role.

1:29:58So why do we get the policies of him versus him? This is just wrong. And it's not just wrong. It's so intolerable that you're like, I just can't go along with that. It is. It is intolerable. And you realize that there's no relationship between what the public supports and the policies we get, because arguably the country's never been more anti-Israel, and yet the policies have never been more pro-Israel, Right. Like from Harvard and what they're doing, Department of Ed to the visas to obviously what's going on in Israel. There's literally no limit to what they're able to get away with. And you'd never know it if you go on the Internet on the right and the left.

1:30:33You go on Instagram and you're getting like A.I. translated Hitler speeches and like normies from like southern universities that are like, you make some good points. That's the right wing. And the left wing is Hassan Piker, who's like pro-terrorism, like straight up pro-Hamas. And you go, so I wonder what the government looks like. Like, we must have some kind of anti-Semitic regime. It's like, no, we're in a war with Iran. If you criticize Israel, you can't go to the World Cup or enter America. So and that's where I tell people what is enough. What's your limit before you say we're out? because people are still, it's just pure cope.

1:31:12People just say, no, no, here's how we could still win. We could get it back on track. They really want to, but they can't. It's like, we just need, it's not even so much people say, what candidate? It's just about rejection. Like, no, I reject this. I reject this. I know this is not good enough. And moreover, and you already said this, but it's true. We are in such a bad situation. The only thing that will fix the country is radical intervention. Otherwise, the country dies. $40 trillion debt, 50 million illegals, demographic change. The country is already dead. It's just dying in slow motion.

1:31:47Oh, yeah. Not even that slow. I mean, yeah. Oh, yeah, right. I mean, these days, very quickly. But it's like you're either going to have a radical intervention or you're going to die. Are Vance and Rubio radical? No. Are the Democrats going to be radical? They're part of the problem. The only thing that's going to solve it is if you just get a different option. So for me, it's just like, let's just reshuffle and reroll until we get something different. And, you know, that's what a lot of Republicans just can't handle. They don't have the imagination for that, I guess. Yeah. I mean, maybe it was it was I was never a Republican partisan.

1:32:19So it just was easier for me to kind of come to that conclusion. But I completely agree with you on that. Not that I'm saying the Libertarian Party is the answer or something like that. I don't know. But but obviously something else other than this. So I want to talk to you about Thomas Massey's election, his primary, which is coming up, I believe, the day after tomorrow. This is a really fascinating – I think the most fascinating House primary election I've ever seen. It's the more money has been spent on this election than any other. Speaking of intolerable, I mean this is really like quite an example of – so Thomas Massey – I mean I don't have the numbers right in front of me.

1:32:58But he won his previous primaries with like 78 percent, 85 percent. It was just – has been a multiple successful winner, political winner at least in his district in Kentucky. He really angered the Israel lobby, particularly in his Tucker Carlson interview where he exposed that he's the only one who doesn't have an APAC handler. and like was getting, was doing something that, you know, even like guys like say me or you or people who are very critical of the Israel lobby aren't exactly explaining like the nuts and bolts of the logistics of how it works in Congress. And he was really explaining that.

1:33:38Then of course he made his famous stand to get the Epstein files declassified and really embarrassed the administration and kind of through some political maneuvering was actually able to kind of like get them to tap out and release it. And then, of course, he opposes both the 12-day war and this current war in Iran. And so this has now gotten the – the Israel lobby has poured tens of millions of dollars or at least$20 million I think has been put into the race. And they've made it a much more competitive race. This to me is going to be very interesting to see what happens here. I saw Michael Knowles tweeted the other day when – there's this stuff that's going on, which I'm sure you've been seeing.

1:34:17But it's like obvious op stuff, obvious op. I mean like literally like three days before the election, all of a sudden there's a scandal. All of a sudden there's one woman with no corroborating accounts who says he paid me hush money. Not even alleging criminal activity or anything like that. Then the betting markets start like – clearly people are putting money in and influencing this. So Michael Knowles over at the Daily Wire – I don't dislike Michael Knowles. But his take on this was he goes, man, if Thomas Massey loses, this just shows the iron grip that Donald Trump has on the Republican Party.

1:34:52Oh, brother. And you're like, dude, dude. I mean, I think it shows the iron grip that the Israel lobby has. If that might be a slightly more accurate take. But then I also go – and I'll be interested because I think Thomas Massey is going to win. I think it's close, but I think he's going to pull this off. I wonder what Michael Knowles' reaction to that will be. So if it proves that Trump has an iron grip when Massey falls out, what about when Thomas Massey wins and survives$20 million being pumped into his district? What would that suggest? So I'm curious, what are your thoughts on Thomas Massey and on this race?

1:35:27Well, I like Thomas Massey. I mean, he's a libertarian. Yeah? So what's wrong with us? Well, I don't agree with him on everything. Sure. But I support him only because he has made himself the, you know, this kind of rallying point against AIPAC. Because, like you said, he took that stand on the interview and he voted against foreign aid to Israel in 24, among other things. So it's just a no brainer to support him in the primary and just in general, because it's it's symbolic. He is one of the only Republicans that's consistently gone against Israel. And there's no question that's exactly why they're coming for him.

1:36:04And they did this in 24. AIPAC did against Jamal Bowman and Cori Bush and a few other progressive Democrats. They spent$100 million in the 24 cycle and in particular trying to primary everybody that voted against that foreign aid bill. And I believe it was April of 24 when they greenlit$25 million for Israel when they defended themselves against Iran or whatever it was so they could fight Gaza more. And so that's what they do. They're doing it on the Republican side. And I agree with you. I think he'll win. But it is interesting. That is how they convince themselves that it isn't Israel. I've seen the take from Michael Knowles.

1:36:45I've seen many people say this, that what's the real reason Massey is terrible? Well, it's not because he happens to be the one Republican against AIPAC. No, no, no. It's because he votes against Trump. He's like not a diligent enough Republican partisan. He's not a loyal member of the conference. And it gets back to even we talked about was frustrating about my debate with Crowder. Like it's along that same theme. It's like, so do you really believe that? Like, I know that that's like you can look at any answer and some of them have explanatory power. Like, it's true that Massey's anti-Republican, but is that plausible?

1:37:20Like, do you think that that's actually true? Obviously not. And Michael Knowles, like he went to Yale. So you think that this is really about APEC spent$20 million to buttress Trump's loyalty? Obviously, this is about something else. And so you wonder what's going on with Michael Knowles. Well, he works for Shapiro. That doesn't help. But these are the things they tell themselves about the party. They say the Iran war is about China. They say Massey is about Trump. They say everything is about everything other than what it's actually about. And that's when you want to say, so are you a liar? you fucking liar.

1:37:56Do you see Trump literally after meeting with Xi said we're going to be sending tons of oil to China. Yeah. Tell me this was all about starving resources to China. The levels of cope. But it couldn't be this lobby that's openly lobbied for this for 30 years. Oh the longest serving prime minister in Israeli history said after we launched the war that this was a culmination of his entire life's work. But let's ignore that. You know like that probably has nothing to do with that. No I mean that's I think what frustrated me. You know there was this one time that J.D. Vance was asked about Thomas Massey.

1:38:28And he basically just said, he goes, look, man, he just keeps voting against us. And at a certain point, like, this is politics, man. If you keep voting against us, we're not going to support you. And I remember hearing that and just going, yeah, okay. Because that just basically backs up everything we've been saying. That's right. It's politics. And us never supporting you again is also politics. Right, right. You know? So, like, okay. Yeah, you're not voting with me. Okay, well, you're trying to unseat. Now, obviously, you like Thomas Massey, but you're not a Labor Chant. I like him and I am a libertarian.

1:38:54So to me, it's just like the absolute – you're trying to take away the one guy that I have who represents me in Congress for the crime of telling the truth about some important issues? Like, OK, cool. Go fuck yourself and I'll never support you ever again. I mean that's politics, right? Anyway, it will just be very interesting. They've really smeared the guy. And, of course, the millions of dollars that they're pouring in are being used for these ad campaigns. It's all ridiculous shit. I also hate – I hate when – I'll see this thing like at a conservative sometimes where they just like – they do the same shit the Democrats do after they were just blasting the Democrats for doing that.

1:39:32Like I remember even late great Charlie Kirk. No disrespect. I liked Charlie and stuff. But I remember I used to see this out of him sometimes. It would really bother me. Where like during Obama, you'd see Obama would brag about the unemployment rate. And then he would go, yeah, but the unemployment rate is bullshit because it doesn't – My words, not his. He wouldn't have cursed. But he goes, the unemployment rate doesn't account for people who have given up entirely on looking for work. Which is like, fair point. And then Donald Trump comes in and he goes, lowest unemployment rate ever. You're like, oh, all of a sudden that number is good.

1:40:03You know, they just do this type of thing. So then they start doing the thing where they go, Thomas Massey voted against border security. And you're like, no, he didn't, dude. He voted against a 3 ,000-page bill that spent like$3 trillion. You know what I mean? Like, it's like, no, dude. If you ever put that standalone, he would vote for that. That's not the issue. And so there's just like a lot of dirty tricks that I'm like, I just don't like seeing this against like one of forget even whether you're a libertarian or anything else. Thomas Massey is like one of the few decent guys. He's being honest.

1:40:34He's running on what he believes in. He's voting. His voting track record backs up what he told you he was going to vote when he doesn't go in there like to go after and then not just try to unseat him, but to really try to like ruin the guy's life. I really just I don't know. uh the way trump the way trump's gone after him and joe kent for getting remarried is like i just find disgusting particularly when donald trump in the case of joe kent his wife died in syria under you right like you know i again i'm sympathetic to trump supporters because i think for a long time he was like the only weapon you had and oh my god we actually get a fighting shot against this evil regime and so people forgive a lot of his kind of vulgar you know stuff but you're like dude you really are a piece of shit man like you're really a piece of shit you're the one who fucking cheats all over your wife and fucks porn stars and has had three different marriages and shit you're this guy he lost his wife to a suicide bomber in syria a war you were supposed to get us out of and didn't and now you're trashing him for getting married two years later just so bizarre man i don't know he is he's wicked he's a wicked human being and He's really showed his hand.

1:41:41I mean, because you're right. Ten years ago, I think the way people saw it is that the left was so powerful and so evil. It felt like they were unstoppable and nothing could ever change. It was so oppressive and suffocating. I remember it growing up, the political correctness, the liberal media, and it just felt like Republicans were pussies. Like they could never win and they would never fight back. And, you know, guys like Mitt Romney and John McCain, they're complete losers. They're there to lose, essentially. Like that's the point of them is to lose it. It's like wrestling, like to lose and get this guy over.

1:42:12Exactly. Yeah. They were there to basically it's a fix. You know, they were there to throw. And so you see Trump and he was what he was. But we said, OK, he's kind of he's the underdog. He's fighting for us. He's brash. He's a little unconventional. But maybe he can win. And now you kind of see all these years later. I think that maybe his true self just emerged. You realize, like, he sort of is everything they said that he was, which is he is a liar. It is really all just about vanity and glory and his own, what's the word, self-aggrandizement. I mean, that's really what it was always about. And even these things like comparing himself to Jesus, talking about killing Persia on Easter.

1:42:50No happy Easter, by the way. Not Christ is risen. We're going to kill a civilization tomorrow. Which is fairly inconsistent with Christ's message, from my understanding. From my understanding. Yeah, it's a little. You know what? It is consistent. It's consistent with the message of Purim. the jewish holiday inconsistent a little bit though with easter listen the old testament god was a bit meaner he's a little more hardcore yeah that's true some of the uh marcionites have something to say about that but like um but yeah so he he's a wicked human being and and like you said it's such a good point when it's thomas massey they go yeah well that's politics well that's just how the cookie crumbles oh you're not voting for us in the midterms.

1:43:32Oh my gosh, you're a left-wing Democrat. I can't believe you. And at the end of the day, Charlie Kirk, say what you want, he was on the team. He was with them. And even with Iran, people say, no, he was coming around. He was about to flip. He was really going to be based. When Trump bombed Iran the first time, Charlie Kirk defended it. And they did the same goalpost thing. When it, when Israel started the war, Charlie said, we shouldn't get involved. We need to stay out of this. It's Israel's thing. When we got involved by shooting down the missiles, he said, well, we shouldn't get involved offensively.

1:44:09We can. And then it was, um, well, but we shouldn't, we shouldn't bomb Iran. Then we bomb Iran. Well, we shouldn't do regime change. Then Trump said on true social, well, I think we should do a regime change. And then Charlie Kirk said, well, guys, There's a big difference between a bottom-up revolution and a top-down regime change. We support a revolution. And so it's like anything that Trump would have done, he would have supported. All right, guys, let's take a moment and thank our sponsor for today's show, which, of course, is Body Brain Coffee. And the big news is that the Body Brain Creamer is officially here.

1:44:42I don't know about you, but I like creamer in my coffee. And Body Brain just put out their creamer, which perfectly partners with Body Brain Coffee. It's all good for you. It's not the creamer you get at the supermarket that's sugary and has a bunch of crap in it. In the spirit of Body Brain, it's all good ingredients that are going to be helpful for you. It's stuff that helps with stress and focus and overall vitality. So it's perfect to pair with Body Brain Coffee, which of course naturally boosts testosterone. This way, it's not like a sports drink or some weird health drink. It's a cup of coffee with some creamer, one cup a day.

1:45:13You're going to feel better. I've been drinking this stuff for months now, and I feel great. Go check them out, BodyBrainCoffee.com. Of course, this is the creation of the great Louis J. Gomez, who convinced me to start part of the problem. So if you love this show, make sure you go support them and get yourself a delicious cup of coffee. Naturally boost testosterone. You're going to feel great. Bodybraincoffee.com. Promo code Dave20 for 20 % off your entire order. One more time, that's bodybraincoffee.com. Promo code Dave20 for 20 % off. All right, guys. Let's take a moment and thank our sponsor for today's show, which is Ridge.

1:45:49I love the Ridge wallet. I've owned the Ridge wallet for many years. I don't know if you're one of those people who has a traditional leather wallet. I used to be that guy for a long time, but you're living in the 1980s or something. You don't need all that. Ridge is a futuristic minimalist wallet. They're really cool. They're made with aluminum, titanium, carbon fiber. They're like these cool metallic looking wallets. They hold your card, they hold your cash. They're a real conversation starter, a great gift for like a guy who's difficult to get gifts for. All Ridge products have a lifetime warranty.

1:46:19So this is literally the last wallet that you will ever have to get. It comes with RFID blocking technology, so you don't have to worry about hackers. They have over 100 ,000 five-star reviews. Check them out for yourself at Ridge.com. Ridge.com is the website. And make sure to use the promo code POTP10. That will get you 10 % off your entire order. Check them out. Ridge.com, promo code POTP10 for 10 % off. All right, let's get back into the show. Well, my read on Charlie's motivations here, and just to be clear, I'm speculating. I mean, I knew him and talked to him a little bit, but I'm speculating a little bit.

1:46:54But my read was always that the number one priority was keeping the coalition together. Like, that's what it was about. It's an operation to get Republicans elected, right? And so I think that – I think Charlie did really oppose the 12-day war but not exactly for the same reasons that me or you might oppose it. So like I might oppose it just for moral reasons like that I just look at it as mass murder and I think that's evil and unacceptable. And by the way, I'm not saying like, yeah, people die during war but like I actually think that some of your people did a real good job coming up with that whole just war theory of Christianity.

1:47:30That's right. You know, like there's been great men who have thought about this and like, OK, people will die in war, but you should at least only fight a war when you absolutely need to. Not just like, yeah, let's there's a war of choice. Maybe this will work out. Anyway, so I have big objections for that. We both have big objections because it's done on behalf of a foreign country to the detriment of our country. I'm not saying Charlie didn't even have any of those concerns. I'm saying the reason why this is my read of it. I think the reason why Charlie Kirk was so adamantly telling Donald Trump not to do this is because he understood the political reality that we've been discussing earlier, that this was going to destroy the coalition.

1:48:06He had his finger on the pulse. And he also – listen, he had his finger on the pulse. He knew what had happened in the Kruper War. He knew how – look how much he moved on the issues over the years. He kind of had to. You want to keep this coalition going, this is the only way it's going to work. And so I think he knew that this coalition was going to be destroyed by this move. but again if your primary goal is to keep the coalition together you say hey don't do this then when he does it you go okay let me explain why that's still not destroying the coalition then he does more you go okay no no no this is you know so like it like he was opposed to it but it's a different type of opposition than what what me and you are talking about here um yeah dude i mean look all we can do at this point is vote for dan blazerian and that's that's what'll carry us through he will save us yes should we why why you're fighting with dan wasarian publicly i got why are you always picking on jews it is it's like nick it's not that important you're such an identitarian but you always i found that out yeah yeah that was just too hilarious like i just could like dude this is fucking hilarious well he's weird i mean i guess we could talk about this a little bit so like i got in a thing with him i think like a day before you and him started getting in a thing so then i was like okay good you were my human shield so i could uh i could keep my street credit or whatever but you know there's this um so like i was i'm supposed to i think this is going to happen actually but i'm supposed to debate hassan piker um i was in a back and forth with him where we were talking back and he was saying that i accused him of ducking me and i was like i don't think i ever said you were ducking me and then dan responded to me and he He goes, you've been ducking a good faith conversation with me.

1:49:44And, okay, so this is just, I'll do mine first and then you can do yours. But so it is true that a few different people, Jake Shields being one, but a couple different people, Sneeko was another one, had tried to connect us before. I knew that Dan Blazarian was trying to talk to me. And I just wasn't really that interested in it. You know, that's just like, I don't know. I'm not even trying to be a dick or anything, but from my perspective, all I knew of Dan Blazerian was I was like the boats and hoes guy who kind of turned into what I kind of consider to be a low IQ kind of Jew hater. You know, like now if that's fucked up for me to say, I don't know, however you would.

1:50:22But I just I've seen him on a few interviews where it was just like I kind of felt it's not someone like you who we may have some disagreements. But I feel like you're you're a very smart guy. You're very well read. You're good faith when we have these conversations. What disagreements we have are disagreements. You know, this was to me just like a guy just kind of like crudely denying the Holocaust, kind of crudely going, we should launch a war on Israel, all this stuff. And even the arguments are kind of like, you know, well, they attacked us on the USS Liberty. Like, you do realize that was in 1967, though, right?

1:50:54Like, this is kind of on the level of we should fight a war with Iran because they killed our Marines or something. You know, it's like, yeah. Well, like, I don't know. If we've done business with them for 40 years after that, you really can't, like, still. Anyway, whatever. Debates on this aside. I just wasn't particularly interested. But so he replies to me on Twitter. And he goes, well, you've been ducking a good faith conversation with me. And even the way he said good faith conversation is, you know me, Nick. It got me kind of, eh. You know, I guess. And so I replied and I went, well, I wouldn't characterize it as ducking.

1:51:25But sure, let's have a conversation. I accept it. Let's have a good faith conversation. Okay, fine. And then he goes, I don't know why you're lying about this, man. And I go, well, lying? I mean, that's good. I'm lying? I'm just saying, like, I'm not, no one's denying that you were trying to talk to me. I'm just saying, like, I wouldn't phrase it as ducking. I don't know. There's a lot of people who are trying to talk to you. A lot of people are trying to talk to me. We don't have time to talk to all of them. But then I go, all right, well, I wouldn't say lie. Then he goes, you've told a bunch of people that you're scared to talk to me.

1:51:55And I go, okay, well, now you're lying because that is – yes, what man talks about themselves like that? I've told other people. Like I said to you, Nick, me and you off camera and I went, I'm scared to talk. Who would even talk about themselves like this? so then it goes and then literally the next comment out of his mouth is you're a subversive jew i always knew you were a subversive jew and you're like guys look again me and you have talked about this a lot i i am not a left winger i don't have left wing uh sensibilities about bigotry i don't i'm not allergic to it like if you're a little bit of a bigot i'll still talk to you about that we're all a little bit of a bigot bigotry is something you're always supposed to have a little bit of you don't have too much of it it'll fuck you up but like But it's like, dude, how many conversations with how many different people have I had?

1:52:45And good faith conversations. Like, really, have I not earned at least enough credibility to go that, like, immediately, if we have one disagreement, like, you scratch the surface and right underneath there is your dirty j**t. Again, I'm not going like, oh my god, anti-Semitism. I don't really give a shit. But at the same time, I am kind of, like, is that from your perspective? Is that not unreasonable of me to just go like, all right, dude. So then that is kind of what this is all about. And that's fine. You have a right to feel however you feel. But also I'm kind of have a right to go. This is pretty fucking dumb.

1:53:16Yeah. I'm not really interested in talking about this. I don't know. Yeah, no, I totally agree. And that's kind of his whole M.O. is he's just he's a piece of work. I mean, he is what he is. This whole, you know, and I saw that exchange. I watched it happen in real time and you accepted the talk. OK, so what more do you want now? He's going to go. Yeah, yeah. Well, I don't know why you're lying about. Look, you got what you wanted. you're going to have the talk so what now and then it turns into the ego thing well you're afraid to debate me and then you're a subversive jew you just go how is this productive actually what's actually your end game is the end game to achieve understanding get on the platform have the conversation or is this about something else yeah so yeah i thought that was pretty messed up and then there was this other thing and i think this is more a dynamic that you've commented on too and then i want to get into kind of your uh issue with not just him but like kind of part of that part of the movement or the kind of little mutiny that you put down last week.

1:54:09I've been watching that. It's kind of interesting to me and I don't exactly understand it. But then he goes like after the subversive Jew that, you know, I'm like, oh no, the boats and hoes guy thinks I'm a subversive. Yeah, I'm subverting society. Okay. Like, what do you, what do you think that means? Like anyway. But so then, and then he does this and because I have been around libertarian party politics for some years, I'm not as involved now, but I was very involved at a time. I've come across this. But he goes, well, you just sit there podcasting. I'm actually doing something. And you're like, wait, what?

1:54:47Like, okay. Like, so wait, wait, you're doing something? What are you doing? You're primarying one of the absolute worst, most grotesque, just utterly disgusting members of Congress in a district that you have absolutely no shot of winning. Like you're talking about – there's a reason why he's the guy who won that district, right? What does the voting demographic – okay, yes, it's old boomers and a lot of Jewish boomers. Okay, Dan Blazarian who doesn't even live in the district because you lived there as a kid or something like that. Like, you're not doing – but there was – this was a thing I found all the time in the Libertarian Party where there'd be some guy who's running for something who's like, we're on track to get 3 % and the last LP guy only got 2.5%.

1:55:38But they'd still have this attitude of like, I'm actually doing something. What are you doing? Just talking into an artist and you're like, I don't know. I'm reaching more people with your message than you could ever hope to reach. And so, like, yeah, I think it is actually doing something. And I don't like what is this like air of superiority that just running a losing campaign is somehow really contributing. This is really getting out there. This is preposterous. Yeah, well, it was a group of them that said that to me. They did this whole conference the week before him and I fell out called America First United.

1:56:15And the whole premise of it is we're out here doing something. We're running for office. We're holding a conference. And I want to say, OK, so you're running a shitty conference with production issues that makes us all look like idiots and you're losing primaries. I'm like, please stop. Like, you're doing something. Stop. Stop doing what you're doing because it's a waste of time and money. And it's actually hurting us. Like it's a liability. But you know what it is? It's like a lot of these people, if we're going to if we're going to act like they're in good faith, let's presuppose they are. Sure.

1:56:46A lot of these people get into the movement and they act like they're the first people that ever got red pilled. Were they OK? Now the reinforcements have arrived. All right. What are we doing to defeat the Israel lobby? What are we doing? Seems like we're not making a lot of progress. Guess I got to take matters into my own hands and run for office. And you want to say, OK, do you know anything about politics? Are you going to win? Are you going to, you know, and I talked to Dan about that. And I talked to Aaron Baker, who's running in the same district. He talked to their campaign manager. They got no plan.

1:57:15There's no strategy. I want to say, Dan, the average age of the Republican primary voter in your district is 57 years old. Trump carried that district by 30 points. You're running as an anti-Trump, exterminate Israel candidate from Las Vegas. You don't even live in the state and you have no money in the primaries in three months. What's the pathway to victory there? And, you know, what they say is like, well, I don't know. We're just going to go in and we're just going to win. I'm like, see, that's the difference. It's like haste and energy, enthusiasm, whatever fanaticism is no substitute for, you know, it's actually doing something, raising money, learning how politics works, doing the hard work.

1:57:57But I really think it is just that zeal of the convert. That's what it comes down to. I think you're right about that. And I've seen, you know, there's a thing, and I know you can relate to this because there are just things, there's, look, like, like you read books and that is actually something that separates like the wheat from the chaff. There's actually a lot of people who like talk about politics for a living who like just don't know anything about this and there's a thing when you when when you do like when you're obsessed with this and you read books and you're there's a thing that i already know without ever talking to you about this i was talking about this with mike and natalie earlier today but you're always 10 books behind you're all there's always a stack of books that like i should have read all of this and i haven't you know what i mean and and authors that are like great authors that i know i want to read their book but god damn i just got to read this other thing and then i got to read the news all day and then you and there's this thing that happens my buddy lewis lewis j gomez hilarious comedian and he's um he has a bit about this and his acts really really funny but he was always like a big tough guy like my whole life you know he was always like the guy like if someone says like why don't we go outside and see who the fuck's up now and then he started learning how to fight he started like taking jiu-jitsu and boxing and he was like i am so much less confident in my ability to fight now that i actually know how to fight because as you know how to fight you also learn how many people know how to fight better than you and you become a blue belt and then you realize every purple belt can kick my ass.

1:59:15And then if you're in some confrontation with a guy at a bar, you'd be like, I really hope he's not a purple belt because this guy might fuck me up. But anyway, likewise, there's this thing where like the more you learn, the more you're aware of how little you actually know. You know, you read one book on a subject and you feel like, you know, the whole subject. I just read 300 pages on a subject. Then you read 10 books on it and you're like, oh fuck, I don't know anything about this. So you're constantly in this world where you're like, fuck me, man, I don't know anything. Sometimes I reread a book that I read once and And then I forget shit that's in it.

1:59:43And I'm like, God damn, I don't even know what I know. Forget all the shit I don't know. And then someone comes by who's read no books. And they go, you don't know what you're talking about. And you're like, motherfucker, I know I don't know what I'm talking about. But you really don't know what you're talking about. And, dude, I got a lot of this when I was in the Dan Blazerian thing. Where you do, you see, it's people who were red-pilled this year. Yep. Lecturing me about how you're just unwilling to have conversations about the JQ. Like, motherfucker, I have taken no end of shit over the years.

2:00:12for being super willing to have these conversations. You don't know what you're talking about, you know? And so I do think that's a lot of it is that it's just like, look, I understand there's this rush for everyone. You learn something. It's like this new power. I got information. I want to go tell it to everyone. But there is a bit of a responsibility to like actually do your fucking homework. Like this isn't that easy. You got to work at this. And a lot of them, it just seems to me, are like really operating on like the most base framework of like, it's about the Jews and you won't admit it's about the Jews.

2:00:45And you're like, listen, dude, I remember there was one, I saw a show you did after our last podcast. And I had said at one point there on the last show that I was like, you know, I've never completely been convinced on the JFK or the 9-11 conspiracy. Like, yeah, I've read enough to like ask some questions, but I don't know. Like there's 50 different theories about who exactly had JFK killed. No question, him and Ben-Gurion were beefing and he was trying to get nuclear inspection. No, look, maybe that's the answer. 9-11, the dancing Israelis, if you look into it, it's pretty fucking shady. High-level Saudi involvement.

2:01:19Anyway, I'm just not completely convinced. Maybe it is Israel, but I'm not convinced. And then someone was saying to you, like one of your super chats, was like, he's clearly controlled opposition because look, he doesn't believe this. And obviously that's his role. And you went, either that or it's a difference of opinion. Like that's also possible too. And so you just have a lot of this kind of low order thinking. People are very excited with this new idea, But the problem is, like, you actually don't have the background on all of this information. Like, you don't really know the details here.

2:01:45There's a lot of that. That's exactly what it is. And, you know, that was part of how him and I fell out is because I met him a couple of years ago and he was all gung ho, wanted to talk about Hitler and the Holocaust and all this stuff. And we started to have this divergence, let's say, around the time of my debate with Dinesh D'Souza, which is about a year ago. I think it was June last year during the war. I remember. Yeah. Yeah. And and I remember I debated Dinesh. Everybody loved the debate. They all said I did a good job. You know, I remember Steve Bannon loved it. He wanted to play it on his channel on Rumble and everything.

2:02:18And Dan texted me and said, well, you know, it's all just about fucking Israel. Israel is the one that caused a war. You should have just said that. I'm like, well, you know, I did say that. I said, however, the argument that people are making is that Iran is this like nuclear breakout state. I said, so in order to convince people about this, we have to sort of address that. We have to deal with that intellectually. He's like, well, it's just fucking Israel. I got it. And it's like, OK. And then and then it was on Tucker Carlson and a few other interviews. I did these interviews and he texts me and says, are you controlled opposition?

2:02:51You never talk about the Jews anymore. I'm like me. I'm like, what are you talking about? He's like your last few interviews. I said, I believe we touched on that in Tucker and on the Jack Neill podcast. he goes yeah but you didn't talk about it enough i'm like so am i supposed to sit there and just the entire thing is going to be it's the jews it's the every interview the entire time and and for them the answer is yes and even about running for office he said you know i want to run for office i said oh yeah what are you thinking i want to run for governor i'm like what are you going to do about israel from the governor's mansion i said that's a statewide office that doesn't deal with foreign policy i said you should run for a federal office because that's where you deal with those things?

2:03:32Well, I don't know. I just think it's like a good platform, blah, blah. And I would always tell him whenever we get in a fight, I would say, you know what, Dan, call me when you're ready to get serious. You know, I said, because you don't know what you're talking about. You're not even interested in knowing what you're talking about. You just want to go on Twitter and tweet the same thing every day. And even when he'd call me on the phone, he was always giving me the speech about how the Jews did 9-11 and JF. I'm like, Dan, I know I I red-pilled you. I red-pilled a lot of people. Like, you're preaching to the choir, man.

2:04:01What are we doing here? So, yeah, it's a very frustrating phenomenon, this red-pilled yesterday thing. Well, it's – and, yeah, look, I mean – look, I feel like even when me and you have these discussions, sometimes I feel like we're talking past each other. And sometimes they'll be – I've felt that way a couple times when you've, like, responded to things in our ceasefire, in our loosely held – in our ceasefire has held for the years. It was tested a few times. I feel like we're talking past each other. But with these guys, I'm just like, what are you even saying? They're like, no, you keep saying it's Israel lobby.

2:04:34It's the Jews. He said at one point to me, he goes, I think it was him, maybe it was someone else. But they go, Nazi, you blame the government of Israel and the Israel lobby, but you don't blame the real culprit, which is Jewish supremacy. And I thought, you know, And okay, so like when someone says, oh, it's Israel. No, it's the Jews. It's just like, well, what do we mean? Like, what exactly are we saying here? And when you say it's Jewish supremacy, I mean, I go, look, Jewish supremacy is certainly a thing. There's really no denial. Go listen to some interviews with some settlers in the West Bank and like, yeah, okay.

2:05:11So like, there's no question that's real. You look at some of the Epstein emails, you could say he certainly had it. That is a real thing. I'm not denying that at all. Now, every group has some supremacy in it. And then there's kind of like light. I don't know. This is what I kind of meant about like bigotry being a spectrum. And you always have a little bit of it. There's always someone who's just like, you know, my grandma makes the best meatloaf in all of the town or whatever. And obviously, just with any religious view, there's always like a tinge of supremacy to a view. because like if you're a christian then you kind of inherently believe that you have it right and other people have it wrong and that they're kind of going to face some consequences for having it wrong and you're and so like but there's also like you could have a healthy amount of it where you're not looking at other people like they're animals or like they don't have now when it gets to a level like a settler on the west bank who's going no these are animals and the idea of discussing palestinians having rights is is like if someone were to tell me or you that like this rabbit has right.

2:06:14What are you talking about? This is like ridiculous. Okay. That's a really big problem. However, to say it's not about Israel or the Israel lobby, it's about Jewish supremacy feels a lot to me like a, um, like kind of the, a left winger, like going like, well, no, the problem isn't any of these policies. It's racism. And you're like, yeah, but now you're kind of just fighting like a ghost. Like, you know, like how about it's about the policy, You know, like if we were alive in 1845, we should be against slavery, not against white supremacy or whatever. Like who cares what thought someone has in their mind in the same sense?

2:06:53Like who cares if Dan Blizzarian just doesn't like Jews? Like whatever. That's your right to have that. But I do think and tell me if you think I'm wrong about this. I do think that that level of Jewish supremacy like that I've seen out of Settlers in the West Bank that you read in the Epstein files. This is something that I've never encountered amongst Jews like in my life. Like the average Jew that I knew in Brooklyn or whatever growing up, like maybe you would have like a little bit of a tinge of like some pride that Jews did this and Jews did that. But never a like, oh, and this person who's not a Jew is not human.

2:07:26That they are like, I don't know. So I actually don't really think that's the main problem. And then also, as we talked about last time, I mean, look, there's obviously lots of – first off, there's lots of Jews who are atheists who are involved in all of this. And there's lots of at least self-identifying Christians who are involved in this too. And it's not because they believe in Jewish supremacy. It's because they believe in a whole lot of other things that we wouldn't disagree with. But does that make sense? Yeah, no, I agree. And what I would say, because I always disagreed with him. He would always say, the fucking problem is Jewish supremacy.

2:08:00And like, you know, they can't even find the words for it. They can't even find like the right. Conceptually, they don't fully understand it. And so he would always go back to, if you watch any interview, it's the same speech. Well, you know, in their fucking Talmud, it says that, you know, fucking blah, blah, blah. And that's why Israel wants to kill everybody and whatever. And it's like, yeah, I know that article that you're talking about. And I kind of know the premise. And I would say that, you know, what makes Judaism different is that, one, it's an ethno-religion, you know, because it is based on that maternal lineage.

2:08:36So that's one aspect of it. And the other aspect of it is that it's not universal. It's exclusionary. So Christianity and Islam will both say, if you're a Muslim, all you have to do is say the Shahada, which is, you know, God's the only God, Muhammad's his prophet. You're a Muslim. If you're a Christian, it's baptism, Eucharist, whatever, you know, your sect is. It's one of the sacraments or it's the baptism or it's even saying Christ is my Lord and Savior. I'm saved forever. So they're universal. And they're not ethnic. So anybody can be Christian. Anybody can be Muslim. Jews, however, have that ethnicity, and there's no conversion.

2:09:09And what's more, there's different prescriptions. For Jews, they have to follow the law. For non-Jews, they have the Noahide laws. And the non-Jews don't have the same expectations because Jews don't believe they're capable of agency. Like the religious Jews don't think they really have culpability in the same way. But to your point, not every Jew is religious. And even the religious Zionists, or rather the early Zionists were not religious Zionists. They were secular Zionists, which is a very important distinction. And so what I would say is the religion is a very important part of Jewish nationalism, Jewish culture, Jewish identity.

2:09:45Even, for example— Well, that's why even the secular ones used it. Exactly. Yeah. Well, and Leo Strauss is a perfect example. Strauss was a follower of Baruch Spinoza who said, you know, the Old Testament's all fake. But Strauss said that, like, in Israel they should teach the Old Testament because that's, like, who we are. There was like this deep contradiction that at once he was a secular humanist, but also he really believed in the importance of like Jewish tradition and sort of saying that you believe it, even if you don't really. And I would really say the real problem to pinpoint it, it is something to do a Jewish ness or Jewish nationalism in the sense that it's the self-advocacy for a separate and distinct tribe.

2:10:24It's this competing identity that, you know, like, let's say, for example, Israel. Israel is actually a project of American and European Jewry. It's spawned from the organized Jewish groups and money and political influence of Jews in New York and Jews in London and Jews. Yeah, no question about that. Sure. And so to me, there's like a superstructure where Israel is just a part of a larger umbrella that is transnational. And what binds them together is that they have this Jewish identity. And I saw there was something from Bill Maher the other day. Bill Maher. Yeah, I saw this. This is crazy, dude.

2:11:00But he kind of vindicated on me in a certain way. And maybe Dan, for that matter, he goes and he's obviously a liberal, atheist, degenerate, pervert. I mean, he's he's as progressive as it gets. No, not religious in any way, shape or form. And I don't even think he's a Jewish supremacist per se. However, he says, you know, Hassan Piker, Nick Fuentes, they're all crazy. Dan Bilzerian is an exterminationist. Tucker and Canis, Nick Fuentes, they're terrible. He goes, the professors at Harvard, they say things that would make Hamas blush. He said, and Israel exists because anti-Semitism will always be around.

2:11:35And you sort of see how like there's a self-reinforcing thing where like Jews feel like they're under attack. So then they become more insular and more tribal. That's why we need Israel. And so that's sort of the tension that's always existed is in an open society. can the jews really be entrusted with tons of influence because they act as this group and they're they're never going to see themselves as part of this propositional identity like well i'm just american or i'm german or because they're always going to say yeah but my grandma was jewish and we were persecuted so that i i agree with everything you said up until that last sentence up until they're never going to see that because i actually are unassimilable well i don't think that's true and i think actually that it's already drastically changed i mean if you just look at like a lot of that stuff almost like in the same way like if you saw with thomas massey was a good example of the poll where they showed by age it was so crazy because like 70 to 80 he's like negative 55 and then like 20 to 30 is plus 55 and it's and just so much of our politics almost breaks down by this age group and it's even it might even be 50 and under although like it changes with but the young jews have like totally rejected almost all of this shit and in the same way as young people around the country have rejected Israel over Gaza and their influence on the U.S.

2:12:55government. I mean, dude, Mamdani won here. That's true. And, you know, he took like 40 percent of the Jewish vote. Like for the I don't know. You know, I know we talked about this last time. I know on the war in Iraq that Jews were one of the leading demographics against it. But that's not really the thing you're talking about here. But I'll say the the kind of the the connection to the Holocaust, which is just in general kind of true just gets more and more distant with with the years and there is a huge huge gap between like even my parents generation and my generation and how like kind of emotionally attached to that trauma they are and then of course from that trauma comes all of the you know kind of propaganda that's built on like that's why we need israel and that's why the lesson forever is world war ii no matter what so i do i disagree with that i do think there's like Like where I guess I would agree with you is that I do think – and I think I – I mean I call this out pretty regularly on my show and on other very big platforms that you can't do that, Jews.

2:13:58Like that's kind of my message to you. You can't be 2 percent of the population and have like hostility against the majority of the population. You can't like have this game where it's like, hey, we got to all like let down our tribalism but I'm going to keep my tribalism. And so I agree with you on that. And there is a degree of that. But at this point, I guess, like at this point in time, right, like, and you're absolutely right that like organized Jewish groups were the ones who were pushing Zionism and pushing for the creation of the state of Israel and organized Jewish finance and, you know, things like that.

2:14:31But at this point, we're well beyond that. And at this point, the Israel lobby, like it doesn't really matter that Ted Cruz isn't Jewish or isn't a Jewish supremacist. Like it doesn't matter. He's still perpetuating the whole system. And then you have a lot, you know, there's a lot of Jews who are against that whole system. So it just seems to me that like this leads – yes, it's very complicated and obviously as you said – I remember speaking of talking past each other. I saw this one clip where you were responding to Tucker Carlson. I want to talk to you a little bit about that because you guys had the show.

2:15:04I thought it was a great show. Full disclosure, I like both of you guys. But so you were basically responding to him and you go, yeah, Tucker, like you're making this point that like, oh, we can't believe in blood guilt. We can't believe that in clay. And you're like, yeah, no kidding, dude. I'm Catholic. Like, obviously I know this, but then you go, the point I'm making is that you can't remove Israel from Jewish identity or from organized. But then my response, what I just thought was like, yeah, but who amongst us is denying that? Like, I don't think so. Like, I think in a weird way, you kind of guys are both agreeing.

2:15:38Like, I don't think obviously it has something to do with Jewish identity. Like, I certainly wouldn't sit here and argue that like the neoconservative Jewish identity had nothing to do with why they wanted to support Israel. Obviously it does. What happened with you and Tucker? Because you guys had the show. It seemed like you guys were kind of at least reasonably cool. He got, I mean, mountains of shit for having you on. And then it seemed like you were offended in kind of the way he handled the aftermath of all that. Is that right? Well, he was calling me out. I mean, we did this thing. I thought we were cool.

2:16:17and maybe not even cool, but I thought we sort of understood each other. And then he started going around and saying the same thing in every interview, which is, well, I went out there to confront him. I don't agree with his anti-Semitism, and I tried to get him to see the light because I told him about blood guilt. And I said, well, that's not really true. Like, you did not bring me out to confront me on anti-Semitism, and I don't believe, I told you at the conversation, I don't believe in blood guilt. And he would say, oh, and I failed. He tried this intervention and I went away still hating Jews for being Jews.

2:16:49So I said, that's not really true. And then this little speech kept getting worse because he would he was doing the rounds and all these interviews. And it went from like that to then it turned into, well, I wanted to let him talk so he could expose himself. You know, some people, if you confront him, you're going to make him look good or, you know, give him an opportunity to defend themselves. He said, I wanted to basically give him enough rope to hang himself, let him talk. And then you could see how bad he is because he beats up on women, hates women, and he believes in blood guilt. And I want to say, dude, we had dinner for hours and hours.

2:17:22It was nothing but friendly. We had the interview, super friendly as he was attacked for. You know, he didn't give a lot of pushback. And then he texted me the next day saying, hey, man, great interview. It was really interesting. I really enjoyed it. I said, so that's just kind of two-faced. and so then I just responded and said that that's just a lot of BS and I think that's dishonest yeah now look I get I get what you're saying you know if I'm trying to be fair about this I do because I get it too also I've believe me I've had a lot of uh situations where if I feel like someone's kind of slighting me and then also there's this weird thing that we have in in our world of like having shows we're like because like sometimes I've I've had things like say where even like someone who's an enemy I don't think you consider Tucker an enemy really I think you're no maybe okay fair enough but someone who like like dave rubin will be talking shit about me and then i'm like well now i got to talk shit back about you because that's the way this game works it's like you're saying this publicly it does feel sometimes when you're in that position where you're like hey you're kind of like weaponizing an audience against me now and my only tool in my toolkit is to do the same thing and try to send them after you i guess i would say that maybe, maybe this is where I think you were being a little bit unfair, but tell me what you think.

2:18:36I saw that you were upset that he referred to you as an anti-Semite after the interview, but I've also seen you refer to yourself as an anti-Semite. And so I guess sometimes there's like a little bit of a thing where, you know, even like when I, like whenever I say Dan Blizzarian, I go, look, this Jew hate thing is like blah, blah, blah. And then they'll go, what are you supposed to mean Jew hate thing? I'm like, well, what was the term? Like you, I thought that's what you said it was does that make sense to you so i i think i would say this tucker is a i'm a different generation than you and you can tell that that that influences the way we see the world like what generation you're born and really does you know have it and there's things that are like blind spots for me that you can see and there's things that maybe are blind spots for you that i can see because we just kind of have different perspectives tucker's a generation older than me by definition we're kind of playing different games and i think that like for someone like tucker when he's getting in this this mountain of you know like shit for having you on when he says that i at least the way i took it was he was going like look i just want to delineate like what i believe in compared to like does that make sense that it's like if you you kind of already now look the thing that makes it tricky with you and i think i've come to understand you better over the years, is that, look, there's a lot of sarcasm in what you do.

2:19:52There's a lot of humor in what you do. There's a lot of like even when I saw you clarify the statement of why you said, I love Stalin. And once you clarify it, you're like, that's not even anything controversial about what you're saying. But you did say it in the most provocative, controversial way, right? Like, so you said, and you kind of like to do that. I don't think there's anything wrong with that, but you like to do that. You kind of get a kick out of being like, I'm going to provoke. And part of the business we're in here is that we're doing shows. We're entertaining people. So that's also part of it.

2:20:19But when you have made all the jokes and you have referred to yourself and you have said things like, what happened to this movement? I thought it was about hating Jews and hating women. That's what I signed up for. Now, I get that that's funny. But I think once you have said a lot of things like that, it's a little bit harder to then get offended if someone characterizes you as hating Jews and hating women. Well, it's not that I got offended. Okay, sorry. Whatever word. To be annoyed, let's say. Well, I think he's a liar. I think he's a liar and a two-faced because that's just not. And what's more, I think he knows exactly what he's doing because he would go around.

2:20:50He said other stuff, too. Like he comes out and he goes, well, I had him on because he was attacking my dad and my wife and my kids. And it's like, no, I didn't attack your dad, your wife, your kids. I just said, you called me a fad. Like, let's get that clear. He went on Candace Owens or had Candace Owens on his show and said, I think Nick is like David Duke. He's a CIA agent. He's a fed. And all I said was, oh, really, I'm the fed? your dad ran voice of America for the CIA. He was a Reagan appointee. So, so that turns into you attacked my family and that's why, and it's like, so that's a fucking lie.

2:21:27And then he goes into, it wasn't just like, well, he's an antisemite and I'm not. It turns into, it was this intervention slash I was going to expose him by letting him talk. It was this like little trick where I'm going to let him talk and sell this controversial stuff. And then he's going to look like an asshole and then he goes and says i'm irrelevant you know then last week did he say that yes in the new york times why are we talking about oh yeah but i don't relevant i don't think he meant i don't think he meant that you're irrelevant as if as in you don't have i mean looks i don't think anyone would say you're irrelevant at this point i mean i guess we're all we're all irrelevant i think he was maybe i'm wrong but i did listen to that interview and i had a different takeaway i think he was making the point that like this is a giant distraction now which is a fair point that like guys you want it is ridiculous that there is so much talk over like Tucker had Nick Fuentes on I mean it was just like a ridiculous especially when like there's a war going on right now and you're talking about like whether you talk to the wrong people I guess listen I get your point I can't listen I don't know maybe I would feel the same way if I was in your shoes well I just want to say I think he knows what he's doing people like to think it's like we're two people.

2:22:41We're not two people. We're two political actors. He's a political actor with his own agenda. And I think everybody recognizes he's an operator. He plays dumb on his show. He's smarter than people give him credit for. He talks to the leaders in the Gulf countries and UAE and Saudi and Qatar. And he's an operator. And I think, let's be honest, I think he brought me on the show to do something to neutralize me either to hurt my reputation or to bring me on side to whatever him and Vance are doing or something like that it didn't go the way he thought and now I think he's sort of resumed where he has been for years with me for four three four years which is he wants he thinks that I'm preoccupied with race religion to anti-semitic whatever and so now he wants to be dismissive towards me so I think it's like it's a little more strategic than maybe you think perhaps i mean i've listen i i've spent time with tucker and had long conversations with him i i think he's a genuine guy i really do um again i could be wrong about that but that is my perception like if he's acting he's doing a really good job of uh he's doing a bad job he asked me what is porn i'm like you're asking me what no but he does but that's the thing he he sets up questions like that that's almost like an old interview style in a way i think that i will say this where i agree with you and i said this last time you were here which was before i knew you were going on the show.

2:24:03In fact, I believe you told me after we recorded that you were like, I'm going on next week. I was like, oh, shit, I didn't realize that. But he was wrong to call you a Fed with Candace there. And I just think that that really is our N-word. You know what I mean? Yes. You really shouldn't throw that out unless you're coming with some type of receipts or some type of proof of that stuff. Literally, I don't know. All I know is I'm not a Fed. That's all I know for sure. That's all – you know, like all any of it, we always don't know and we kind of wonder. But that is – there is something about that accusation which is it's fucked up because it's the same thing that like leftists would do where they go at your intentions instead of taking on your argument type thing.

2:24:47Like if you were to start making – if you went to any college today and just started making an argument about like average IQ statistics, they're trained to – not even hear what you're saying but to immediately hear what your motives must be. The only reason you could be saying this is because you are secretly some type of Nazi who wants to – you know what I mean? And so like there's – the point of the accusation of bigotry is to get people to dismiss you without hearing what you have to say. I think it's also the, you know, whether it's the intention or not, that's what accusing someone of being a Fed does too.

2:25:21And so I don't think people should make those accusations unless you've got some reason for making them. Or, you know, like, no, this is why I really think. Now, Tucker obviously was a figure of the establishment. And, yes, his father was in the government and all of that. No question. And, yes, he goes and meets with leaders around the world. But also, you know, he's been the number one rated cable news show for many years. and now one of the biggest podcasters, debatably the biggest kind of conservative voice in the country, that doesn't really seem to be evidence of anything to me. Like, yeah, maybe they would.

2:25:53I'm sure they would like to meet with anybody on that level who was advocating against a U.S. war or something like that. No? Am I being hopelessly naive? Well, I would say it's a pretty big story with Tucker. The dad was at Voice of America. Tucker's nephew works for Palantir. The son works for Vance. and i don't think anymore no not as of a couple months ago yeah um tucker got 15 million dollars for tcn from 1789 capital which is uh is that true is that real yes from omid malik and that's and chris buskirk who's a teal guy that was like teal's main guy which is an offshoot of rockbridge network which is a vance project and tucker said he consults peter teal before every major life decision he's tight with joe kent who's a cia officer everywhere you look there's and listen i'm not trying to say he's a fed i'm just saying he's he's something more than he lets on he's he's more of an operator he's in other words let's just say he's not just some dude fly fishing with his fucking dogs in maine hanging out with this checkered shirt well he does do that too sure he does it but like he makes it out like uh like he's just one of us and some some kid at the turning point thing said, your net worth is$50 million.

2:27:11Like, what are you talking about? And he's like, don't believe everything you read on the internet. It's like, sorry, your net worth is $20 million. Like what, what's, it's a difference without a distinction. So I think there's something going on there. And I will, I will add to that. You say about the fed thing. Yeah, it is like, it's bad faith and it's dismissive and it's a, it's aimed at your credibility. It's like, don't listen to this person. But he also came back in the New York times piece and said kind of the same thing he said to meghan kelly also which is nick fuentes is a useful tool of the regime why he said because there's a right and left consensus that the economic and foreign policy of the elites is not working he said and the only thing that matters is economics those are going to be the most impactful resonant issues in the future among the the younger generations he said more so than immigration race or religion he said so someone like nick fuentes is a convenient diversion, because if everybody's talking about him and his ideas, which are race, religion, demographics, whatever, he said that no one's going to talk about why investments are taxed less than labor.

2:28:16You know why the capital gains tax is lower and more easy to manipulate than the tax for like a W-2 person on income. And it's so this is like an actual ideological political divide where he really believes that if only the white identitarians would get out of the way, If only the so-called real anti-Semites would get out of the way, then the sort of like left-leaning economic populists like Tucker and Anna Kasparian and Cenk Uygur and all these people could get together and we could elect some kind of like populist ticket or something. And so there's something very specific he's saying. It's very precise.

2:28:54And I think it lines up with he is 100 percent behind the political trajectory of Vance. They're asking about Vance, and he goes, they say, when's the last time you talked to him? I don't know. Days, weeks, months, I have no idea. Why'd your son get fired? I don't know. Ask him. Really, you don't know? I don't know, and it's not cool that you're asking me that. People are out to get J.D. Vance. Really, who? I have no idea. And moreover, he said, I'm not going to answer these questions because I don't want to hurt J.D. And my interview with Nick is going to hurt him, blah, blah, blah. He's 100 % behind Vance.

2:29:28And I think that Vance going to NatCon, being a part of that thing, he represents this kind of like left economic populism, populist nationalism thing that he thinks I'm in the way of, which is convenient because I'm against J.D. Vance as well in particular. So to me that it's like a there's a real battle going on. It's not a misunderstanding. Well, I'll say this without, you know, like I don't like to give away private conversations, but I'm not saying anything Tucker said. I'm just saying what I said. But I was very clear with him the last time we hung out that I was like, well, I go, and I maybe said this partly because I wanted to kind of see his reaction to it.

2:30:08But I was like, well, the JD project is over. And I went, no, there's no way. I mean, come on. None of us can support him now. And it doesn't even matter if you wanted to because he can't win. It's over. And he didn't bat an eye at it. It didn't seem like it was like a problem for him. Now, again, that doesn't really prove anything because maybe that's still his plan for down the road. And he's like, OK, well, that's the issue right now. So I will say this. Yeah. Fuck J.D. Vance. There's no. Well, I'm just saying, like, that's it, dude. You can't be the. Listen, it was already a long shot that J.D.

2:30:39Vance would ever be capable of doing this, to be honest. Just like as we were talking about before, on a pure charisma level. Yes. J.D. Vance just doesn't really have it. I don't get me wrong. He's smart in a way that Donald Trump isn't smart. You know, like he's good at like in a more substantive way dealing with like a hostile CNN, you know, host or something like that where he can actually kind of make points. Donald Trump would just have slogans and dismiss them and win with bravado, but he can actually get in and argue. But he's just not a charismatic figure, which is kind of a prerequisite for leadership.

2:31:12You know, like it just kind of is what it is. But being attached to this administration, I think that's all over. I think that it is possible here that you and Tucker are kind of talking past each other. And I think that there is, again, keeping ages in mind, there is something where, look, I was like, I am, I guess, to some degree an economic populist, but with a very different economic program than, say, a left -leaning populist would have. um i think that there is a point a real point to be made that the the regime doesn't like focusing on economic realities and that that really is at the heart of a lot of what the problem is in america now those economic realities are a reality because of other problems so it's complicated but you know like the fact that the average first-time home buyer is 40 is death to a nation Like that's – if you have that, then me and you talking about social conservatism is just a fucking exercise in futility.

2:32:11It doesn't matter, dude. If 25-year-old guys can't afford to get a house – like you have to be you in order to afford to get a fucking house at 25. Maybe not at 25, but now you could. Whatever. I don't know when you were allowed to make money again. But I'm just saying like – so I do think that like I understand the perspective of thinking that like look, these kind of like racialist issues and culture war issues and all of these things, they do distract from the fact that the entire economy is rigged on behalf of the powerful and is absolutely just devastating young people. And I do think that that's I think you speak to a lot of that.

2:32:46I think it's part of the reason why in this time a voice like yours is so popular and powerful is because like, yeah, like a lot of the people you're talking to, I think you're talking to older people as well at this point. But a lot of the people you're talking to are the ones who are dealing with this economic reality. And so I get his point in from his perspective, perhaps thinking that like, yeah, talking about like race and stuff like this is a distraction. I also think that there's a desire that I also share. This might be part of my generation too. But there's a desire that I have. And of course, I'm Jewish.

2:33:20So it's hard to ever be the one. I'm not going to be the one who will ever convince people of this. So I accept that. But there's a desire to be like, hey, dude, you can really oppose Israel. You can really oppose all these wars. You can really oppose all this shit without getting into some ugly shit where it's just like directed at people. And I understand that that's not what you're saying. Like you're not saying like this – in fact, I've heard you without being asked just say on your show that I'm not saying it's all Jews and I'm not saying there's anything like – and you shouldn't be – I don't know.

2:33:50You shouldn't be shitty to any person because of an immutable characteristic and you've made very clear that everyone should be protected under the law and things like that. But there is an energy to your movement that I think it just – like you talk about low IQ anti-Semitism. That's not unique to you or your audience. All of us have our low IQ portion of our audience. There are low IQ libertarians. Believe me. I've met them. I've called a lot of them out. There's low IQ Democrats. Most of them are low IQ Democrat, low IQ Republicans, all of this. But there is something about – and I'm not blaming you for this.

2:34:23But there's something about the low IQ anti-Semitism that's a bit more dangerous than the low IQ libertarianism. You know what I'm saying? Like it's not just going to be someone making goofy arguments about whatever. it's you get into this thing where it does seem like the energy is being built and it is against a group of people rather than like a group of powerful people does that make sense well i mean i would say that um we fight pretty to me and the groipers are very much not low iq anti-semites i think that's true but by and large yeah because and even with this uh schism in the past couple weeks.

2:35:00I mean, I don't know that any of my supporters went with Dan Bilzerian and Jake Shields. Like, you know, for example, Dan said on Sneeko stream, we're going to exterminate Israel. That's something I would never say. That's something that my followers, I don't think, would ever say. And if they believe in that, then they could go and support him. But I will say that it is a clash of civilizations. I do believe that on a fundamental level, it isn't just about a power disparity, like this kind of Martian lens. It really is about identity. And, you know, for example, you got guys like Shabbos Kestenbaum.

2:35:33He's not powerful. He's that kid that's suing Harvard, that Jewish kid who spoke at the RNC. It's like there's a lot of these guys. Yeah, I know who you're talking about. Yeah. And I would say even further, like as long as there's that element in the coalition, there's always going to be this expectation that we're paying lip service to that. There's always this expectation. To me, it's kind of like an all or nothing proposition. Is it America first or is it not? And in any case, I don't know that it's even I don't know what the danger is. I haven't seen any Groypers go out and do anything. No, I guess I guess.

2:36:08Listen, I'm not trying to overall. I think the Groypers have been very fair to me over the years. You know what I mean? And so like I my feeling about generally speaking is like, yeah, generally like they're cool. I mean, you know, the group is a huge group at this point. So it's impossible to like completely characterize, you know, all of them. I guess it would just be like, well, I know I saw – listen, I don't know. I just don't understand. Again, this is my age. Like there's some things where I feel like someone like you, I kind of like, okay, I'm kind of interested in you. I recognize that you're important and you're smart.

2:36:40And I'm kind of like, okay, let me kind of figure out where you're coming from. But then like I see guys like – okay, I can't remember his name. But the guy who – the look smaxing – Flavicular? Yeah, I don't understand how this is real. Like, I just can't even wrap my head around. Like, this actually exists? It's not made by AI? You're telling me this is real? And then, but, okay, so leaving that aside, that was kind of not the point. But who's the guy, the builder? Bob the Builder? Chud, Chud the Builder. Chud the Builder. I'm sorry, I'm fucking real. I swear to God, I'm not, like, acting like I don't know.

2:37:12I'm just, I'm sorry. I'm old and I don't understand this shit. But that was one, and I did see your take on this, which I very much appreciated. This was one of the things that people, I really gave you a lot of praise. after Charlie Kirk died. And you really had this very serious message on your show where you were like, hey, dude, if any of you out there are thinking that, oh, I'll go do something violent, I totally reject you. I denounce you. I thought it was really important to have a guy who's a radical, politically speaking, being like, hey, guys, no, we're not going down this path. And I did appreciate that you also kind of called this out.

2:37:47I think these are things, listen, I give you credit for this because I think it's an integrity move. I think sometimes it goes against your incentives. like it'd be easier for you to just not have to deal with that and go yeah fuck you it's free speech bro right if you want to go call black people the n-word to their face that's your god given right or something um now i'm not even commenting on the actual criminal case because my understanding of this is that it wasn't when he was doing a video it was like some other time and he didn't actually provoke this guy i don't know we'll see but there is i don't know there's Something worrying.

2:38:20Forget making about you were the Groypers. Something worrying about like society more broadly when you're kind of like, guys, what are we doing here? Like you're going at first of all, like even whatever opinion you have of black people, like how about just an opinion on like manners and decency? And like, why are you creating a situation here? I also I could infect me and Mike, our producer, we were talking about this earlier. I actually can make like an advanced libertarian theory argument for why I think the black dude has a right to punch him for saying the N-word. And I don't mean to be a dick.

2:38:56Like I believe in the non-aggression principle as a libertarian. But like I genuinely – if I walk up to a man with his wife on the street and I walk up to the two of them and I go, hey, sir, your wife's a whore. I believe that I have consented to a fist fight with that guy. Like in the same sense that if you go to a restaurant and eat the food, you've made an implicit contract that you have to pay them now for this food. Right. Like in the same sense, I do kind of look at like I don't think you're a free speech warrior. If you're going, oh, are you going to ape out? Are you going to chimp out on me?

2:39:26You're kind of calling this dude an animal to his face in front of an audience. To me, that's a challenge to a fight. Right. You know, I don't know. Do you? How do you? I do. Yeah. And and that's where I think me and the Groypers are actually I and I have said this for a very long time and for a long time, people didn't even have a clue what I was talking about. They thought it was ridiculous. But we actually are a moderating force in a very good way in the sense that, you know, people do look to me as the radical, the dissident, the guy for those issues. And I am a Christian. I am Catholic. We are against that stuff.

2:39:58And so like, I think, for example, last time we spoke, there were those Goyim Defense League guys in Florida. They were shooting Jewish people with water guns. And I said, that's not going anywhere good. And now it's this situation with Chud the Builder. And yeah, I'm getting a lot of hate for this. I'm getting shit on for it. You're right. People are saying, oh, he's a free speech martyr. He's a warrior, whatever. And you want to say, yeah, I mean, do we want to live in a society where everybody's a public nuisance, live streaming, challenging everybody to a fight. And it's just not nice. I mean, the, the hill we want to die on is that if people commit crimes to get arrested and people are considerate and polite in public, you know, we just have, like you said, decency and manners, not that we're going to like, yeah, I could say the N word to a person's face.

2:40:44And if you get mad, that's your problem. It's like, I don't think that was ever actually the struggle. Like that's not actually the civil rights battle of our time. It's more like, just don't freak out at spirit airlines, you know, like just use an indoor voice. Well, by the way, I agree with you about you being a moderating force in a lot of ways, you know, and not always, but like in a lot of ways. And that's kind of the point I was making about the Charlie Kirk thing. I think it's, there's a real dynamic there, right, with like, even with Trump, you know, when people would make this argument a lot in the first term, where it's like, he's not the river, he's the dam.

2:41:14Right. He's not, he's here because there's this, you know, this environment that's rich for him. And I do think, yeah, it's like people who want to, you're like, oh, we should take out Nick Fuentes. You're like, yeah, wait till you get the Nick Fuentes 2.0 who's not a Christian. Right. You know what I mean? And they're out there. And really might be ready to be like, yeah, I don't care. I don't have any of these restraints on me that like you're not allowed to be violent or something like that. No, I agree with you. And in fact, by the way, with this one, with the Chud the Builder guy, I said libertarians also taking a hard line around it.

2:41:47Because it may not be like they love him because he's racist, but they're the free speech absolutists. And of course, they're libertarian autists. So everything is black and white and either you're for free speech or you're for this. And that's my role as the libertarian day walker is to be like, well, actually, guys, there's I know you've got your theory on paper down front, but there's also this thing called like human nature. And that's also very important to deal with. I think. Yeah, I mean, I think you're you're right that there's just with a lot of these things. Also, some of it can just be reduced down to like, guys, what is productive about this?

2:42:22Right. What is going to help? Like this actually doesn't make things better. And yeah, getting in people's faces, squirting water guns at people, whatever it is. It's like this does remind me a bit of even say like the left wingers. Remember when it was throw a milkshake? Yes. And they would kind of, they would very intentionally make it like, what are you mad about a little milkshake? And you're like, dude, first of all, you fucking throw something at me. Like I might assault you. I don't know. Like, but, and, and also then you don't know what's in the milkshake, like all these things. But you're like, yeah, this is a really dangerous game to start playing.

2:42:55And it does feel like we almost – we got a little bit away from this threat of like woke leftism. Part of this is I think it's because the wars are more distracting to them. So now they're like against the genocide and it makes it harder to be against Nick Fuentes when you're against the genocide. And he's also against the genocide, but he's the bad guy. You know, like it confuses them a little bit. But yeah, I just think it's a really, really bad path to go down. And I don't know anything else about this guy. I don't like root for him to go to jail for a long time. I hate the fact that his life's ruined over this or something.

2:43:25This is just bad all around. But at the same time, you also, and I think this is something you get that some of the others do not, is that, well, first off, there's like being righteous. Like be the good guy. Be the one. Be right. And then you don't have to, you know. And then there's also just optics where you're like, dude, how do you think this looks to everyone else in the fucking room? You know, like if you've got an argument about like Jewish supremacy or the Israel lobby or whatever, like make your compelling argument. But as soon as you're the guy who's doing that shit, it's almost any decent person who maybe otherwise would have heard your argument is going to go, dude, this is just not for me.

2:44:03I want no parts of this at all. Yeah. Well, yeah, I like what you said. Just be the good guy, you know, like and I said it on my show, like these scenes that are being created are not good. like these protests, the public nuisance live streaming. It's just like this big circus. Everybody's yelling at each other. Everybody's in each other's faces. Everybody gets arrested. I said, ultimately, who is this good for? Because Chud the Builder himself, his life is over. He's destroyed. I mean, who knows? Maybe they'll let him off with some of these charges, but he's got a baby mama and a kid. Their lives are destroyed.

2:44:36Everybody around him is annoyed by this. If you go in public, you ruin everybody's day. And then, you know, it just turns into this big, ugly public spectacle that divides people. And look, you're going to divide people no matter what. But I think that you got to do it by doing the right thing, you know, and I'm an advocate for especially my young audience to just simply rise above. Just be the best version of yourself. Be an ambassador. Be a representative of your views. Be Christian. You know, go out and be forgiving. Be benevolent. Be return antipathy with kindness. Like, that's how we actually make the world better.

2:45:09I don't think we make the world better by becoming worse or resorting to lowering ourselves to the level of our enemy, our worst impulses. That's kind of my message. Well, I love that. I think that's a great message. Okay, there's a couple more things that I want to ask you. Mike, how long have we been going for? 240? Okay. You good to go a little longer? Okay, great. Okay, so I wanted to ask you a bit about – okay, I want to ask you about Sneeko. because you and him are kind of like the two guys I know in that world. Like, well, I don't know, in my conception of that world, whether this is accurate or not.

2:45:45And I know you guys have had like a little bit of a falling out. I haven't seen the whole thing. But now, again, I don't know Sneeko super well, but I like the guy. He seems like – I think I met him in person once, and then I've been on his show like a few times. But we text occasionally and stuff. He was one of the guys who was trying to connect me with Dan Blazeria. That didn't work out. Uh, but so like, oh, I knew that, um, I, you know, I don't know all the details of like your guys' friendship or falling out or any of that stuff, but it did just cause I know you both. And I kind of like both of you.

2:46:16And I was just like, oh, that's almost like kind of a little bit of a bummer that you guys aren't friends. I thought you guys were boys. What happened? But I don't know. I guess maybe there's been more to it, uh, than, than what I know about, but are you guys cool? Are you not friends now? I don't know. I don't know where we are right now. We're kind of off and on. We're always fighting. It's always over stupid personal stuff. And the latest thing is I was supposed to come out here and I was going to do a collab with him, or at least I thought I was. But he doesn't want to collab with me because he doesn't want people to think he's taking my side over Dan and Jake.

2:46:48And I said, bro, I'm not even asking you to take my side. I said, let's just do a collab. But he doesn't want to alienate all his other friends. I said, well, ouch. like if you were he was fighting with the Tates not too long ago I saw that yeah after the club of cost I would have went on his stream after that but so but so it always turns into something like this that was dirty though dude I mean yeah the Tates did to him was fucking dirty and I got just full disclosure on what did you call it club I was gonna call it club of cost that's great club of cost okay so here's by the way my entire take which I think, I believe I texted this to Sneeko.

2:47:30I said something like, I said, Adam from PBD and the Tates are being gigantic f***s. Clubs are gay. Don't ever go to them again. The song is funny. Like that was my take on the whole thing. It was just like, I don't know what you're doing in a club, Nick Fuentes, but like don't go to clubs, dude. Like what are you doing? It's the worst place on earth. It's the dumbest thing. Listen, again, I didn't like clubs even when I was young. But whatever. I do I will say this this is my perspective on it I uh I I don't give a shit all about playing the Kanye song the fact that that's a controversy has got to be one of the dumbest controversies ever like first of all it's Kanye West like I don't know it's Kanye West he's a fucking icon like it's not like also the song is clearly hilarious like it's just it's almost like what world are you living in where you think like this was a real like I don't know it's it's a hilarious a song that is clearly like, it's almost, it's the equivalent of, well, maybe you won't like this comparison, but it's the equivalent of like Marilyn Manson ripping the Bible on stage.

2:48:37And in some ways there's something kind of interesting about it because you're kind of saying, no, this is the real religion. You know what I mean? Like this is the real religion that you actually worship. So I'm just like tearing up your holy book because I believe it's bullshit, you know? So I thought that was, also it's whatever. So I didn't care. But there was something that I saw in the little bit of that stuff was when there was like a – it was like Andrew Tate and his guys. And they were like – so from my perspective, I look at this. I look at you and Sneeko, who I like. I look at the clav, who I don't believe is real.

2:49:11And I just go, you're young. I don't know. I don't fucking understand exactly what your culture is. It's a different culture than when I was young. but then I see these like 40 year old guys they are with you first of all 40 year old guys being at a club at all is just the lamest thing in the world if you ask me my humble opinion but then I literally see them like trying to school the 20 year olds about how you should never listen to a woman what are you doing having a conversation with them and I actually so just from my perspective I don't give a shit about the Kanye song I think that's pretty funny actually I think that is fucking disgusting dude i think it's fucking disgusting to be a man in your fucking 40s a glorified pimp essentially and what you're imparting to the young guys is like yeah dude we don't listen to these bitches like what are you 17 dude this is how i talked when i was 17 like then you grow up and you're like yeah actually i do listen to my wife yeah like we actually have conversations and stuff like that i know it's so cringe it's gay i know but like i don't and listen i know you're young and you don't have a wife and a family yet, you know, I hope you get one at some point.

2:50:14I also understand, like, your life is a particularly wild one and so, okay, fair enough. I would still highly recommend it because it's the best thing you'll ever do in your life, is like, get married and have a family. But, like, there is something about, like, older men kind of, like, discouraging that in younger men that I do think is, like, profoundly wrong. Okay, so that's whatever. That's my little rant on that. I thought it was really fucked up the way they threw sneaker under the bus on uh patrick bet david's show uh not i shouldn't say they i guess it was just andrew who was on the show but then i think his brother did the same thing where you're like dude once you go there and do it you just gotta own that you did that you can't come back and go well i didn't think it was a good idea to play the thing it was sneaker who did it and i just thought that was really fucked up like either you're gonna all go down for the not go down no one's being affected by this but either you're gonna all take the week-long controversy or you're not, or you can apologize.

2:51:07And if you feel like you did something wrong, but to throw the other guy under the bus, no, I thought that was fucked up. Well, yeah, I would just say to Sneeko that he should just try unifying with them. I think he should, because that's, you know, when Dan Bilzerian called me a Fed, Sneeko texted me and said, you know, you just need to focus on unity. Charlie Kirk was a unifier and that was his strength. So I'm going to say the same thing to Sneeko. I think he should just unite with Andrew Tate. And, you know, it's kind of his fault that Andrew attacked him because he's looking for leadership.

2:51:37Sneeko needs to step up and be the leader. All right, so you're mocking Sneeko's hypocrisy on something here. But about the club, here's what I will say about that. And about Andrew Tate in particular, you know, it is true, though, that there is just this epidemic of simping that's going on. That's the only reason. No question. Because, you know, as a Christian, I'm also in favor of having a family. And, you know, Christians are pro-woman on some level, I guess. You know, they're more more pro woman than like, let's say, pagans on some level. But, you know, they say that in an environment where all the women are whores, they all gaslight, all lie.

2:52:14And so men do need to kind of wisen up to this. So, you know, I do. And what's more about the club, I mean, the way it came together, we're all just hanging out. We're at this party and we're like, wouldn't it be funny if we brought Nick to the club? like wouldn't because it's like me and i'm like kind of hilarious autistic person whatever so like we're gonna take him to the club for this first time fuck it let's just go and we went and yeah i hate the club the club's like an evil place satanic like just destroy all clubs den of whores you know like i hate i really you know so um so yeah i will not be returning i don't see the appeal i go i don't get it um or i went i suppose i i don't get it i don't but I don't drink.

2:52:56I don't. It's for dumb people. The club is for dumb people. Oh, for. Yeah. Yeah. It's like to meet someone without having to talk to them. You know what I mean? Like, it's just, it's inherently a kind of like, just like a weird sport. Like if you're at all a guy who like, even back in my single days, if you're a guy who like your game relies at all, I'm like, I'm going to be witty or charming or funny, or I'm going to be interesting. Then the club's the last place you want to be like the club's like, I got nothing to say, but I got abs. So you want to like rock with me? I don't know. No, listen, I get the point that there's no question, right?

2:53:30There's an epidemic of simping. I completely agree with that. I guess part of this, and I think this is almost a generational thing too, is that I think about 90 % of like the like, let me blow your mind with this take of the manosphere is what in my day was just common sense to all 15-year -olds. Yeah, you don't wife up a whore. We all knew that. Like, yeah. She's a hoe. Like she's for hooking up with. She's not for taking seriously. You know what I mean? So like maybe this is, maybe this ancient wisdom has been lost and it must be like given back to the young men. But like it doesn't, it's just like with all this shit, man, it doesn't have to be this cartoonish overcorrection where it's like, therefore we should all be pimps.

2:54:13Like, all right. I know, I know. How about this? How about like, yeah, if a chick's done OnlyFans, don't be in a relationship with her. That's a deal breaker. her she can't be a prostitute okay yes again i don't know whatever jesus was cool you can forgive her don't marry her okay that's my advice um but also like the cartoonish other i i see this a lot with like the trad con kind of thing where it's like you're not really doing the traditional thing you're almost doing like a funhouse mirror version of the traditional thing and i think that if you want to have a movement that's like pro-white and pro-traditional conservative values or things like that it's like okay but they're they believed in things like chivalry and decency and they would have never talked the way that you talk never like to a woman they would have never talked that way now look it's a different time it's a different age different techniques are going to be necessary but i just think the the idea of like i don't know that just it really offended me like the idea of trying to convince young men to be like, you fuck all these bitches.

2:55:18It's like, why isn't it like, find a good woman? There are still good chicks out there. They're not all whores. There's good chicks out there, dude. Sparing, sparingly few, sparingly few anymore. It's rough out, you don't know what it's like out there, Dave. You don't know what it's like out there. Well, look, I mean, there is some degree of that, but I don't know what it's like out there. It's the same thing with Tucker. It's like, Tucker gave me shit for that, and it's like, bro, you married your high school sweetheart in like the 80s, like that's crazy. but it's a fair point well it's a fair point i mean i haven't been i've been with my wife for a decade about we're married will be eight years this year and then we're dating for a couple years before so like i've been with her for like a decade so like yeah i have not been a single guy since kind of a different time i had pre me too pre donald trump or the very beginning of donald trump or whatever like i don't know it is a different culture and i was not on dating apps and Instagram wasn't a thing.

2:56:09And like, believe me, I had not, even when I was in high school, like even the slutty girls, I feel like never would have been like this. Like the idea of like, they would just like post pictures of their ass. Yeah. It was like, that was not a reality in my, like you had to hook up with a girl to see her ass. Like you didn't just get to say, so granted it's a different world. I will say I can understand you being like pissed off about Sneaker being like, I don't want to have you on the show. That seems like a strange position from him. But I also think that he was done dirty in the club of hosts.

2:56:46Yeah, I do agree with that. I just say that because I'm just trying to repay it. I'm just trying to pay it forward. Fair enough. I do agree with you. All right. There's a couple other things that I wanted to talk about. Okay. Venezuela. I think we really disagreed on this one. Yeah. So I was curious about that because I was surprised. Now, I don't know exactly what your take was. I was kind of told by people that you were for the war in Venezuela, and I was kind of surprised by that. So what is your position on that? I'm all for it. I believe in the Monroe Doctrine. I believe in hemispheric defense, and I think it's legitimate.

2:57:21I think it was a low cost, low casualty, brief intervention that in the end is a huge strategic victory for a few reasons, which is we're going to be able to go in there, increase their oil output and then take the oil. And then we also get Cuba to boot. John Ratcliffe was down there negotiating with them. And I think that's all legitimate. If you were fighting in Iran, that's on the other side of the world. And they've been preparing for this war for 30 years. They got 190 million people. Venezuela, Cuba, that's our backyard. And that's where all our shipping occurs. Mexico's our number one trading partner.

2:57:58That's the Gulf of America. And Russia and China are spying on us there. China's building all this dual use infrastructure in Latin America, the Caribbean. Russia has military partnerships with these countries. So I think that's one of the few instances where you can say that's legitimate use of American power. But what is the connection to the Monroe Doctrine exactly because i see a lot of people invoking donald trump kept invoking it but i don't really see how it's even consistent with the monroe doctrine i mean number one we're not there were two parts the monroe doctrine everyone seems to forget the second and the second part was that then we won't interfere over there so we're certainly not following that part right but the monroe doctrine essentially said that there can't be any more european colonies here that you can't colonize any more of of our hemisphere there were already european colonies at the time but they were like no more but that's a lot different than just maybe they do some business with some people we don't like or maybe there's some you know like loose you know I don't know connection to a foreign power that doesn't seem like the Monroe Doctrine said we can invade any country whatever we can go to war with any country we want because it's in our backyard so I don't I don't think that's exactly right also but it's not like the Monroe Doctrine is law it's something a president said a long time ago but I don't know i don't think it's consistent i would also add um you know if you're gonna say venezuela was low cost i think you gotta add the iran war into that cost on some level no way i i think there's no question that the venezuela strike being such a success is a big part of why donald trump was primed to be convinced that he could have another big success in iran and i think coming off that big success it did seem to really encourage i'm not trying to remove blame from anyone else but But it did seem to encourage him that like, yeah, you can do this.

2:59:44You can be great. You can be tremendous and awesome with the military. I don't know. I guess when we said earlier, when we were talking about the war in Iran, and I said, look, part of it's a moral issue for me. You can't get murdering people like this. How is it, and I don't like to be the guy, I'm not a Christian, I don't like when non-Christians try to lecture Christians about Christianity or something, so I'm not lecturing. but I guess I don't see like how is it consistent with Christianity to almost like if you have a view let's say look some people died in the war in Venezuela or Cuban bodyguards or something I don't know not that many people died but some people died and if it is like let's say something's in our hemisphere it's good for us we could go kill them and take their shit and then we'll have their shit you get like how is that consistent with Christianity yeah well can we get into the Monroe Doctrine stuff as well sure sure whatever you want so So, you know, as far as the Monroe Doctrine is concerned, if you look at it, it has evolved over time.

3:00:43And it seems that it has evolved as America has become more powerful. When it was promulgated originally, we really had no Navy and so no ability to enforce it. And there was a corollary added to it in the late 19th century when we became the preeminent superpower in the Western Hemisphere that basically said we are the sovereign of the Western Hemisphere. Our edict is the law, like whatever we say goes. So it is consistent with that. What's more, Venezuela and Cuba are effectively influenced from Russia and China in the same way that a colony from France or Britain would be in the 19th century because they produce missiles.

3:01:18They have spying posts like intelligence operation. They've got dual use infrastructure. And so it does actually represent Chinese and Russian influence in our sphere of influence. So I would just say that as far as the Christian angle is concerned, I don't think it's very clean. Because in the era of strategic weapons and intelligence and all the modern technology, it gets a bit convoluted what constitutes national defense, because there's there's really is convoluted layers, as you know, strategic thinking about nuclear weapons and how they're delivered and then cyber weapons and intelligence agency.

3:01:56So you could say, like, reasonably speaking, if Cuba has some kind of Russian Chinese spying post on it in preparation for some future global war, it is theoretically in self-defense to try your best to neutralize that. Now, that doesn't give you carte blanche to go in and like, well, let's just kill everyone in Cuba because we could do it. But I think within reason, you're able to conduct these kinds of extraordinary operations that are outside of what would be considered like a just war in the Middle Ages. Like we're going to war with this kingdom because whatever. And in the case of Venezuela, it was so limited.

3:02:32So it's really we I wouldn't even call it a war, even a military operation. We just extradited one person who happened to be running a country that is a criminal enterprise. You know, Venezuela is a socialist dictatorship. And arguably they they are like a criminal regime. Socialism's against the Catholic Church. But what's what makes a criminal, you know, from my perspective, runs on traffic, they're all criminal regimes. But yeah, so but like, well, I mean, it's a different there. Some are worse than others. But like what makes them a criminal regime? Like they make money off of kidnapping is huge there.

3:03:03Like people get kidnapped all the time and pay to release the hostages. No, but I mean, you mentioned dictatorship, but you don't believe in democracy. So like that. I don't say dictatorship to me. It wouldn't seem like that would be a bridge too far for Nick Cuentes. There's good dictatorships and bad dictatorships. Point being is like if you want to use the moral angle, it's not like this was some kind of like decent humanitarian regime. Like this was a corrupt regime. Listen, I'm the libertarian. So you've got me convinced. I am no fan of like the Maduro regime or the Chavez regime or anything like that.

3:03:33I guess like the updated just war theory that you just laid out just seems to me to be vague enough for the Israel lobby to drive 10 wars through. You know, like there's the, well, they're in connection with another country. They could. I mean, the nuclear issue is not an issue with Venezuela or Cuba. I mean, to me, I think Donald Trump has celebrated how wonderful this is, claimed it was a regime change, claimed we're in control of the oil now. Now, of course, for other factors, but Americans have only seen an increase in oil costs since then. What seems to me to have been accomplished by the war is a pretty brutal energy blockade of Cuba.

3:04:15I mean, this is a little island that's been destroyed by communism for many, many decades. It poses absolutely no threat to the United States of America in any reasonable way. The Soviets aren't bringing nuclear missiles to Cuba. They're trying to get a ship full of oil. It's a Russian submarine off the coast. Well, they were trying to move oil in which Donald Trump allowed them to do, which I think was a good move. Not worth starting a war with Russia over. but I just again I think that like again these are your people who came up with the just war theory right like these are all catholics yeah I think if I'm not mistaken I think it was all catholics who came up with this but the idea of at least having some like I understand the um like when Thomas Aquinas and those guys when they're coming up with just war theory they're clear and they were very well aware of this that they're balancing different things right like you're you're balancing christian ethics and then war which is a very difficult thing to right there's like the worldly realities of these wars and they're doing they're attempting to go look obviously christians can't accept killing someone and taking shit from them so like here is the only way that it could be justified is if it's a defensive war you're attacked you fight it proportionally something like that i just think saying that like this regime ran off of like you know criminal activities i mean it's certainly true but i don't know it just seems like a justification to start a war anywhere at any time.

3:05:37And I do worry about that because that's, you know, those justifications are almost always used in very bad ways. I would just say that, you know, again, it just gets to be a bit convoluted because the nature of warfare has changed because of strategic weapons. You know, like when I say nuclear weapons, I mean, Russia and China are nuclear armed. And that means that we're kind of engaged with them in every way at all times. As long as those weapons exist, we're always going to be spying on them. We're always going to be in some virtual state of conflict with them. And that is global because the whole basis of the Monroe Doctrine is nobody can touch us because of the oceans.

3:06:17Well, what our adversary is going to do, they're going to try to get on our side. Cuba, Venezuela, Nicaragua, Bolivia, whatever, or even building the dual-use stuff in every other country, Argentina, Peru, Jamaica, Haiti, whatever. So I would classify that under something like self-defense and with proportionality, like I said, we're not saying like, and by we, I mean me, I guess. I'm not saying like we can go to war with Venezuela and like invade their country and take their sovereignty, take all their supplies. I'm saying though, that if they're aligned against us in our hemisphere in a way that's threatening, we should be able to go in and change that.

3:06:55If they want it to be better, they should just align with us. You know, you say, well, Cuba's this tiny defenseless island. Okay, well then you better submit to Washington because you're right next to the superpower and they're playing games. Saying you better submit to Washington is how we've got the whole situation in Cuba for 60 years. You know, I mean, that was the, that was what they said initially. You better submit to Washington. And if they want to avoid that, if they want to avoid a war, then they could always choose a diplomatic option. So could Iran. So could all Israel's enemies though, you know?

3:07:22But Israel can, I would say that's a different story. Okay, but that is true about both of them, you know? I mean, I don't know. I guess I just think that, I think, you know, Essentially, my take on all this shit is that – and I think this is right. I know this is kind of like a boring – there's just not the energy to some of my views that are to yours because this is just – but I think that the bottom line here kind of is we can't afford the government we have or even close to it. You just can't afford this. We're living under the biggest government in the history of the world. I mean by orders of magnitude.

3:07:56It really is – you just look at how much money Washington spends every year. And, you know, we can't afford the entitlement programs, let alone the world empire. And so we're$40 trillion in debt. And that's not even representing it because even the four, even our entire tax base plus the$40 trillion in debt couldn't pay for this size of government. And so we just have to print the money to make up the difference. And we've printed, I know you might even know some of these numbers better than me, but it's, what is it? Since George W. Bush, I think we've created like 80 % of the money that's ever been created.

3:08:27We're just printing trillions and trillions of dollars. This is how we've essentially band-aided over this bullet wound of an economy. And because of this, this is what's destroying essentially the currency. It's what's making life unaffordable for young people and working class people. And if you're going to continue to debase your currency, you're going to continue to see life like this where it really does destroy any hope at having a conservative country. I don't mean just conservative like in decent values if you can't – if young people can't afford to start families. And all this stuff about like kind of looking for another war and another war when they're – even as you describe it, this isn't a war of necessity that you're describing.

3:09:12You're describing a war of choice. Like maybe things would be better if we fought this. I just think it's really bad policy to allow our government to always be in search as John Quincy Adams would say of another monster to destroy. You know, these people do not – and I think this is one of the fundamental problems with government in general and it's one of the problems with the Trump administration and all of this is that these people, as you've said at the beginning, they are not on our team. They're not working based on our incentives. They're working based on their incentives. And if you give them that type of power, I mean, to just kind of say anywhere anyone's interfering that maybe could be strategically bad for us, we can go fight a war there.

3:09:53I mean, man, I just the military industrial complex is going to be like, OK, we got some thoughts. I'm saying that from a moral point of view, from a moral point of view, as long as because I think the case could be made. Like, for example, you know, in the Cuban missile crisis, I mean, would you say something like, well, Cuba is a sovereign state. They're allied with Russia. So they're putting nuclear missiles to defend themselves. You would say, no, that threatened us. It's too close. And the same goes even, you know, for other conflicts that have happened in the world. I think morally speaking, it just gets a bit more complex because of the nature of how things are.

3:10:28And I would take it a step further and say, when it comes to, you know, this being a war of choice, if you actually look at the strategic situation, we've been losing the Western Hemisphere for 15 years. China's become the number one trading partner of basically all of Central and South America and the Caribbean. And what this does is it allows them then to go in and build all this infrastructure. And that's part of a very concerted play. Like they are trying to increase their influence. They're building this stuff and they're building this stuff in anticipation that they're going to put their Navy there.

3:11:02They have 400 times the ship building capacity as us. They're building deep water ports everywhere eventually to put their ships. And like, for example, there's a new technology. They put a missile launch system in a container like a shipping container so they could get their biggest container ships, load them up with shipping containers that may or may not contain all missiles. Or like an Operation Spiderweb last year in Ukraine, they could contain all these drones. So if there's a future conflict, let's say in Taiwan, do you want Venezuela and Cuba to have Chinese spying posts? And do you want a Chinese deepwater port in Peru?

3:11:36And they've got all their shipping there and it's simultaneously surveilling us, but also loaded up with weapons. That obviously puts us in a big disadvantage. So, you know, it's like that other expression. If you want peace, prepare for war. How do we check China? We I don't think it's a war of choice. I think this is we're kind of getting our act together because we let it go in the Western Hemisphere. Yeah, well, Taiwan's going to have to submit, I think. To China? Yeah. By the way, I mean, I say it kind of tongue-in-cheek, but I actually agree with you on that one. I think that – so you brought up the Cuban Missile Crisis.

3:12:07It was a good example. And I would certainly agree with you that, no, that is something – that is totally reasonable to go like, no, we can't – I understand you haven't bombed us yet. But I can't be expected to sit here with a knife at my throat and go on with life as normal. This is intolerable. But of course, the solution to that, as you well know, was for Jack Kennedy to get on the phone. And that was not solved by invading Cuba. In fact, when he invaded Cuba, it was an unmitigated disaster. But this was solved by getting on the phone and making a deal and saying, listen, we can't live with this.

3:12:41So you got to move these back. And in exchange for that, we will pull our – was it from Turkey? I think we moved our nukes back. Just seems to me like with all these problems, that would be a way better way to solve them. And of course, the U.S. does have tremendous leverage if it were willing or able to use it. Now, this is one of the interesting dynamics with our government is that it's this giant organization, but it's not exactly like the guy at the top just runs the whole organization. There's many factions within it. And if the guy at the top is going with the wind, he's very powerful. But if he's going against the wind, like, in other words, if the president of the United States of America is the most powerful position in the world in some respects, If Donald Trump wants to start a war, he can start a war anywhere he wants to.

3:13:26There's really no more congressional authorization or even war powers or anything. And honestly, does anyone believe – even if they did, if this War Powers Act had passed and Donald Trump just went, suck my dick, does anyone think anything would have changed? So if he's starting wars, he's very powerful. Now, if he wanted to destroy the military-industrial complex, he basically has as much power as me or you. So if you're going with the grain, you're very powerful. But going against it, you're not. um but like for example if you wanted to end say like the war in ukraine a little bit tougher now at the beginning maybe would but we have enormous cards we could play we could say hey look we'll we'll leave nato the u.s will leave nato it'll be just a european alliance you can come in and we'll leave but you all work out like you could get putin to stop but you'd have to give him something you know and even as you say this i i don't disagree with like some of the um potential issues that you're talking about and it is a very new world and look even as we're watching in Iran um you know I've been at this for for 20 years now and drones in war were just not a thing like it just wasn't a thing it was a brand new thing when we had them now all of a sudden this is a new reality totally changes warfare now when they can essentially close the Strait of Hormuz if I think if need be just with cheap drones but again China's been doing over the last 20 years while we've been fighting endless wars and spending trillions of dollars.

3:14:49They've been doing business with everybody. And like, perhaps then maybe that would be, if we want to get into that strategic fight, that it would be to, okay, yeah, let's do diplomacy. There's a lot of shit that the rest of the world really hates that we do. China, when Donald Trump even just went over there now, right? Like he wants them to stop helping around in whatever logistical intelligence way they've been. And they want a whole lot of things from him. like we can get things you know what i'm saying like it's just even things like big military mobilizations in in in asia or something like that they have a real problem with that and so us arming taiwan or stuff so i guess my point is just that like we could rather than like launching wars over this stuff and look the venezuela one didn't turn into like a catastrophe but you risk that every time you launch one of these wars and um i think we would be much better off at just like being smart, being much more restrained.

3:15:44You know, saying, what was the phrase you used in order to end a war? You got to, or whatever. It's a peace through strength, essentially. I mean, I've been hearing peace through strength out of the Republicans since Ronald Reagan. I was too young to remember Ronald Reagan, but I know he said it. They've been saying it my entire lifetime. And all we've gotten for it is permanent militarism, forever wars, crushing debt. And so don't get me wrong. I guess maybe where we could agree and then we could leave it at agreeing to disagree is that I'd rather I'd prefer we be more involved in our backyard and not around the rest of the world.

3:16:19I'd prefer it be in our national interest rather than in some other country's interest. Or by the way, I don't even really think any of this shit is in Israel's interest. I think this is in what the Likudniks perceive as the interest of greater Israel. I think they've gotten Israelis killed and probably made them more of a hated pariah state than ever before. But I also think in the same sense, it doesn't really seem to be the way D.C. works. They're not really working in the interest of the American people. I agree. I mean, I think diplomacy is preferable where possible, but sometimes it's not possible.

3:16:51And it sounds like a lot of this root causes, you know, it's like when you go to these Democrats, they say, well, the reason these these kids are committing crime is because they don't have like after school programs. And it's like, dude, they need to go to jail. Cops need to beat the shit out of them and take them to jail. And with Venezuela, it's like, look, Rick Rennell proffered a deal with them. They didn't take it. I mean, because they wanted Maduro to stay in power. And our sticking point was you got to realign with us and Maduro's got to go. And they wouldn't agree to it. So we had to go in and take care of them.

3:17:23And I agree with you, though. I'm a restrainer. I believe in restraint. You know, I think that we should be very selective in our engagements, keep him in our backyard, preferred diplomacy but sometimes you got to kill people sometimes you got to do it i i wouldn't necessarily disagree with that but also i think there's a lot going on that we don't know about there and i think maduro was all tied in with the cia and a whole lot of stuff going on that that we're not aware of okay i'm glad you prefer diplomacy first nick fuentes i uh very much enjoy our diplomacy um i've i hope this doesn't break into a hot war again ceasefire is intact The ceasefire is still in tights hanging on by a thread.

3:18:00It's a lot stronger than the ceasefire in the Middle East right now. Dude, I really always enjoy talking with you. Thank you so much for coming back on and look forward to doing it again. Likewise, man. Thanks for having me. All right. Thanks for listening, guys. Have a good one. Peace.