36. How Rahm Emanuel Would Run the World

20:18Rahm Emanuel:We needed a banker in the middle of the public square and just slap them silly. Two, because of the financial meltdown, you were more likely to get a bipartisan vote, which both the TARP and stimulus bill did not have. Third is you would fight with the bankers. Now, if you have to have an opponent, I'd like bankers. I thought culturally, politically, holding the bankers and the financial industry's feet to the fire and reforming the system would both garner bipartisanship and be a sense to the public, the middle class, that we're still, their homes are under water. It would be somewhat of a catharsis that somebody upstairs was being held accountable.

21:00Rahm Emanuel:To President Obama's great credit, we had a four-hour Saturday Roosevelt Room discussion. I lost the fight. He made his decision, healthcare first. But what I loved about both President Clinton and President Obama is you were never scared to disagree with them. But once a decision was made, you enforce that decision. President Obama, I gave him advice on financial reform, lose that battle. He decides healthcare. I've been through this movie before, it doesn't look pretty. I said, okay, if this is what we're going to do, fine. I told him up front, you will pass nothing else when you're done. Kaput.

21:32Rahm Emanuel:Because this is not one that gets money back in the account, you're taking it all out. He made that decision. The president wanted it done. Now, did I chase members down, including working out at the gym and being very clear to them how they were going to vote? Yeah. I have no bones about it. Going back to financial reform, as an outsider at that same time watching, I was stunned at how the economists in the administration were just willing to do anything. They were so worried, it seemed, about being held personally responsible for the next Great Depression, that they just didn't kind of care, another$500 billion.

22:11And I challenged some of them later, and I said, you know, as a public servant, shouldn't you have been trying to maximize expected value for society or something, not worrying about your own reputation? And it was kind of like they hadn't thought about that before. And then they changed their tune dramatically after that, said, no, no, it wasn't about our reputation. It was uncertainty and da-da-da.

22:32Rahm Emanuel:So I think we're on the 12-year anniversary of the financial bailout. That was really good policy. It saved the country from a depression, plus the stimulus bill, the two of them combined. Two of the worst political decisions you could ever make. And those two, one-two punch, saved the economy from a depression. So we have argued on this podcast that the president is not nearly as important as people think the president is, has much less actual power. the decisions matter less. You pretty much disagreed with everything I've said so far. Do you disagree with that as well? Yeah. So you think the president is actually really important?

23:11Rahm Emanuel:So yes, big time. If I had known this, I never would have come on this podcast. Who vetted this decision? So I think presidential decisions are major. Otherwise, I wasted a lot of time giving sound advice. So you speak very reverentially about Clinton, and I can't tell whether you feel the same about Obama or not. Really? I think they're both great presidents. No, no, no, opposite. I suppose if there's a slight tinge, you know, I used to say to my mother, you love Ezekiel more than me. She goes, no, I hate you both equally. So let me say this. A, I spent more time with President Clinton. B, it's in my formative political years.

23:47Rahm Emanuel:I revere President Obama. And, you know, we're closer in age. We're good friends. We have a personal relationship. But it was just at a different point in my life. and that's why. Let me just be really clear. If I left any doubt, that's bad on me. Coming up after the break, Rahm Emanuel ponders the central trade-off of this difficult time that we find ourselves in. Public health is dependent on separation and segregation. The economy is built on a premise of integration and interdependence. That's right after this.

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26:31Listening to this episode now, 16 months and 40 episodes later, I realized how easy Ron made my job that day. He's a dream guest in the sense that he has great stories and he's not afraid to make bold statements. He loves to talk, but he also knows when to stop talking. I remember my confidence growing and deciding I would throw out a question after the break that I knew was risky, but I hoped he'd take the right way. A long time ago, Steve Dunn wrote a piece about me in the New York Times that I was this brilliant guy. And when there was some problem, I'd scratch my head, I'd type in the computer and some brilliant solution would pop out.

27:10I've been able to milk that for the last 20 years and it's really been helpful. You have a reputation as being ruthless and foul-mouthed and a tyrant. So to what extent is that sort of a fake thing you've cultivated?

27:25Rahm Emanuel:To what extent do you think it's helpful? Well, first of all, I don't care. I mean, here's my thing. I am tough for the things I believe in. One, you should know. All my staff, still people that worked for me when I was President Clinton's senior advisor, stay in touch with me and ask me to be references for their jobs, etc. Now, all I was was a screamer. Would that be possible? We're all more complicated than described. I actually think journalists, unfortunately, for speed, time, etc. You know, did I send somebody a dead fish? Yes, I did it. And I'm not proud of what I did. And I would do it again.

27:59Rahm Emanuel:I wouldn't do it again at this point in my life, but I would do it again at that point in my life. So, you know, look, am I tough? Yeah. Am I passionate? Yes. Am I a caring person who reaches out to people who years ago worked for me for all the screaming and yelling that, quote unquote, I only do? That's all I do. I only have one tool in my toolbox. That's it. Really? Now, is it out there? Does it work for me sometimes? Sure. But like update your metaphors, man. I'd sent the dead fish close to 30 years ago. Okay. But to you, I want to congratulate you taking one article and making all the money you did off of that one article.

28:38So you probably don't remember, but the first time we ever met in person was when you had decided to run for mayor. We talked for a few minutes and I said, you can't seriously want this job. The mayor of Chicago right now is the worst job in the world. The city finances are in shambles. Pensions are unfunded and the crime. and you probably don't remember your answer, but your whole demeanor changed and you got very quiet and not like you're a teary guy or anything, but you said, I love Chicago and I'm the only guy who can save Chicago. I said I'm the only guy? Yeah, you said that. And it really struck me because I'd never met you, obviously, but I'd heard so many stories about how ruthless you were and at that moment, either great acting or like a really genuine sense that you were doing things.

29:30Either authentic or faking the authenticity. Exactly. So you come and you win and you serve two terms as mayor and now you've written a book about mayors.

29:40Rahm Emanuel:Look, the introduction is about my grandfather's journey from Eastern Europe and fleeing the pogroms of Eastern Europe to come to a city as a 10-year-old. And this city made our family. And I do believe it's the most livable big city in America. It's a quintessential American city. And it's the city that welcomed not only my grandfather, but my father. And we put our roots down here. So it's home. And you have, Steve, I think some old shoes you refuse to throw away, right? And when I went to college, I immediately came home. When I left the Clinton White House, I immediately came home. When I left President Obama's side, I immediately came home.

30:21Rahm Emanuel:And so this is home. And the book is about, you know, the center of gravity of our politics. We've had these fluxes between national versus local. We're in the beginning of what I think is a major local breadth or center of gravity and a diminished role for national. That's also true in Brussels and London, etc. When you think about the way you work, where you work, how you get to work, where you raise your kids, etc., the amenities of your neighborhood and community, schools, transportation, libraries, parks, all of those are services your local government gives, which is why 75 % of the public believe in their local government, but only in the 20s for national.

31:02Rahm Emanuel:The national government is becoming more and more like Disneyland on the Potomac. What's different this time also is that local governments are, A, mastering the schools, the transportation, the libraries, the parks, and these investments that are key for the vitality of their city and their residents. And they have to do it, one, because the national government's walking away. Two, they don't have the option of standing still. They have to make these investments. Just take education. Lyndon Johnson, at the height of the belief in the federal government, he creates Head Start. Cities are burning, people are fleeing, and he gives mayors some money for early childhood education.

31:41Rahm Emanuel:And it's to help mayors who can't get it together. Fast forward 50 years later, President Obama, working with John Boehner, the Speaker of the House of Republican, who used to be the chairman of the education committee, tries to create universal full-day pre-K for early childhood education. Can't get it done. So rather than take no for an answer, he pulls together 200 mayors and says, look, I can't get this done at the national level, but you guys are the only ones that can put some points on the board. And you go to New York, go to Chicago, go to Boston, go to San Antonio, go across the country.

32:11Rahm Emanuel:Mayors are now finding the local resources for universal full-day pre-K. The need hadn't disappeared. The government entity that could provide that new service did. Now, Chicago, on the other side of the educational equation, we were the first city to create, with Chicago Star Scholarship, free community college tuition, books, and transportation if you got to be average in high school. No federal government, no state government, nothing. They've never even called, even though 8 ,000 kids have gone through it. 81 % of that 8 ,000 are the first ones in their family to go to college. Boston's copied it.

32:45Rahm Emanuel:Denver's copied it. San Francisco's copied it. Oakland's copied it. But nobody expects Washington will do anything about this. What I admire about what you did in education was you were incredibly pragmatic. You looked at the situation, you said the school day in Chicago and the school year is short. The kids are getting something like two or three less years of education over 12 years. and you did what Clinton taught you to do, which was to fight doggedly at whatever cost with the end in mind and succeeded in doing that. I would not be sitting here across from you if it wasn't for two things, the love of my parents and a good education.

33:26Rahm Emanuel:And in government, you can affect one, you can't affect the other. So I believed in that and I made a pledge in the campaign of 2011 that our kids in Chicago had the shortest school day and the shortest school year in the United States of America. That is an unbelievable condemnation. So before I was mayor even, I was mayor-elect, I changed the law so time was not in a contract negotiation in cooperation with the teachers union. And remember, 84 % of the children that go to the Chicago public schools are from poverty or below. If you were starting with a blank sheet and you want to end the cycle of poverty, Would you draft a five and a half hour day?

34:06Rahm Emanuel:So that was one. And then two, that same negotiation in 2012, we ended up producing the resources for full day kindergarten for every child. So I've studied education for a long time. And in the end, I got discouraged because I actually think that we are asking too much of our schools because absent not just the love of the parent, but the focus on education of the parent and whatnot, I think sometimes we think the schools are somehow going to make up for deficits that they can't. So I'm a big believer in education, but I also think that people should be realistic. First of all, you're right and wrong.

34:42Rahm Emanuel:The whole debate, which is what drives me crazy, no one teacher for 45, 50 minutes can push back against all the social, economic, cultural deficits that walk into that room. It's impossible. Impossible. Now, the principle creates the culture in that building, and it needs the entire building, not one room out of that building to work. Number three, we're going to have to be honest. Parents play a role in the child's education, and we do have to ask our schools to take on more responsibility, especially for kids of poverty, because not every parent has the agency that Steve and Ram have and our partners, let's be clear, to deal with the education of a child.

35:27Rahm Emanuel:And so the discussion should be fulsome. Think about it as a parent and then back up all the things Steve and Rahm, Amy, I don't know your spouse's name, we do. And then what are the policies we can do that allow a child who doesn't grow up in the Emanuel rule home have the same opportunities, the same capacities. And if you then put those in place, look, one statistic to illustrate this point. In the United States, 44 % of all high school kids go to college. In Chicago, it's 44%. We don't have the same completion rate, but we do have the same acceptance rate and attendance rate. Everything that would say, not that child, not that zip code, not that income, not that race, not that gender, we have proven the cynics wrong.

36:13Rahm Emanuel:do we have challenges absolutely are we done no but to you that are depressed but are passionate about studying it i would tell you it can be done you'll get your head beat in i was six two when i started this job i'm five eight now but you can do it it can be done so it's not that you're saying that the city or the mayor is necessarily the right way to get things done you're saying with the current dysfunction of the federal level, we're just completely screwed unless the mayor step and do this. Is that the right way to think about it? I would love a federal partner. I don't want to do this on my own.

36:52Rahm Emanuel:You don't have an option as a mayor to wait. And I think when you look at it, if you think the federal government is distant, your local government is pretty, I mean, you said before I ran, you and I had a conversation, pretty intimate. The economy is global. We're seeing it right now with the virus, but all politics is local. And I think the residents want a government that they can influence, that influences their lives. And that's more local than it is national. And why do you think the mayors are becoming more important now? You think there's more talent flowing into that job? Without a doubt.

37:30Rahm Emanuel:Just take politics nationally right now. So Mayor Pete wins Iowa in New Hampshire. Joe Biden runs this ad. ridiculing streetlights, cobblestones when I'm dealing with Iran and healthcare. And people go, well, I don't know, streetlights and cobblestones sound pretty good at me. That would be like, as the governor of Michigan said, just pave the damn roads. If you feel so alienated from your government, what is the one political government that still has legitimacy to say X or Y? And that's your local government and your local government official. And I think mayors today, for a host of reasons of leading the efforts on education, leading the efforts on infrastructure investment, leading the efforts on quality of life, all the things that touch your life is your local government.

38:20Yeah, that's true. And I have to say, I was highly skeptical of your premise when I started reading the book, but it was surprisingly persuasive. So I walked in with a C and got a B minus. I mean, it's an unusual book in a lot of ways. It's part memoir. It's part policy, wonkish or deep thinking.

38:36Rahm Emanuel:So I describe it as a third political science, a third of rethinking urban policy and politics. And as you remember, Winston Churchill, towards the end of his tenure, they said, how do you think history would treat you? And he goes, very well, I plan on writing it.

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40:16I would say one of the most surprising things I've observed is the liveliness of cities. I mean, 30, 40 years ago, cities were dying. I mean, it was like everything was going against some crime, poor financing, bad schools, and technology, which was making it less and less important that people be face-to-face. and who would have ever predicted the turnaround? My dad and mom left BUNL.

40:45Rahm Emanuel:I was in fourth, fifth grade. We moved to the suburbs. That's not happening today. All the things that drove you out are driving you back in. And so that's a pretty unique social, cultural, economic alteration. So what do you think happened? Because it's something I think about a lot. How did that happen? My own pet theory, probably wrong, but my own theory is that it's not just about jobs, but stuff has just gotten so cheap, right? So it used to be like when we were kids and the TV broke, it was a big deal, but now a TV broke, so you like buy a new one. You just watch it on your telephone. So I think stuff got so cheap, and as people got richer, services became much more important in terms of the way people consume.

41:25And the cities are the only place to get those kind of services that people want. And that, I think, has been really important.

41:31Rahm Emanuel:A lot of people want the services or the benefits that come with city living. The lakefront, the museums, the theater, the restaurants, the bars, in the same proximity of work. And that's put pressure on cities to improve schools, improve their public transportation, improve their parks, their access, what parks offered. And I'm proud of this as a former ballet dancer for a hundred reasons. We came up with this thing called Night Out in the Park. which was cultural attractions in our parks from Shakespeare theater to Joffrey ballet to the Chicago symphony. You know, if a family wanted those amenities, they're like out of reach even for a middle to upper middle class family.

42:15Rahm Emanuel:And so making sure that you could still have culture and all those things accessible and affordable. And then there's a massive race across the globe that will never slow up for talent. and Chicago has an incredible institutional strength in this. GE Healthcare left London for Chicago and McDonald's years ago left for the suburbs, realized that they can't find the talent they need, staying where they are, the campus structure they have, the university they have, and they took it here to Chicago. Now, there are other things you got to do to make sure that everybody's a winner at that, not just some people, but companies are chasing talent and where you have talent, you'll have success.

42:58These days, Emmanuel is a contributor for ABC News and an advisor for Centrifew Partners and Investment Bank. Given his lengthy experience in public service, I wanted to ask him one more question about how history will view the COVID-19 crisis. Is this going to be seen as a blip? Is this going to be seen as fundamental? No, no, no.

43:16Rahm Emanuel:History will see this as a pivotal point where not only are we globally interdependent, but we're going to start to try to find ways to unlock that interdependence. I don't think our supply chain 10 years from now will look like it is today. We are not going to be this reliant on China for medical supplies, pharmaceutical supplies. Just won't happen. And, you know, public health is dependent on separation and segregation. The economy is built on a premise of integration and interdependence. Those two principles are in conflict right now. and we have to figure out how they can't be in conflict, but more collaborative and cooperative.

43:59Rahm Emanuel:We're going to have future pandemics and we're not going to be able to survive as a society where you're picking one or the other. Those are wise words, Ram, and I hope that we won't let this crisis go to waste. Can I say the quote was, never allow a good crisis to go to waste. It's the opportunity to do the things you never thought possible and make them possible. And so the emphasis was always not having a good crisis, not letting it go to waste, but what are you going to do that you thought, oh, would love to do that, but I can't for, you know, these 20 reasons. The impetus then is to identify what are the key things in that crisis that have to get prepared for then the future.

44:40Rahm Emanuel:And that maybe makes us all, to quote you, better data scientists.

44:50So let me make a confession. I asked Ram that last question about COVID being a blip because on March 2nd, 2020, I really believed COVID would be a blip. How wrong was I and how right was Ram? I guess that's why presidents ask him for advice and not me.

45:12people I mostly admire is part of the Freakonomics Radio Network and is produced by Freakonomics Radio Morgan Levy is our producer and Jasmine Klinger is our engineer all of the music you heard on this show was composed by Luis Guerra thanks for listening

45:34D.D.

45:35Rahm Emanuel:Myers described me as Alan Alda with an Uzi.

45:45The Freakonomics Radio Network, the hidden side of everything.

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