In short
The episode debates whether a “new axis” of China, Russia, North Korea, and (increasingly) India signals a shift away from U.S. dominance, and how much military danger that poses. A major thread is Trump’s tariffs and Russia-oil penalties as perceived affronts to sovereignty, allegedly pushing India toward China/Russia while also drawing India closer to Pakistan. The panel discusses China’s 80th-anniversary military parade as a message of capability (including missiles, drones, “robot wolves”) and whether it’s comparable to past Russian displays. Key claims include: the U.S. has “bully” behavior and “wars of choice” that degrade America; China’s strength is partly economic “debt” leverage; Taiwan is unlikely to be taken by force due to terrain, distance, and Taiwanese self-identification; and Trump may be using transactional “off-ramps” and small-dose force to reduce escalation. Notable examples cited: U.S. troops in Iraq/Syria; sanctions and fertilizer/palladium/uranium trade with Russia; EU buying refined Indian oil; Scarborough/Second Thomas Shoal; and India-Pakistan flare-ups.
Guests
Barker Dutt (Mojo Story founder/host), Cyrus Janssen (geopolitical analyst), Dave Smith (Part of the Problem host), General Mark Kimmett (former U.S. Assistant Secretary for political and military affairs), Gordon Chang (author of Plan Red).
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOThe Rise of a New Superpower Order
0:00 to 0:54
Discussion on a potential superpower world order beyond the US.
“15 or more headache days a month, each lasting 4 hours or more, can make me feel like a spectator in my own life.”
The Rise of a New Superpower Order
0:58 to 3:08
Discussion on a potential superpower world order beyond the US.
“There could be another superpower world order that doesn't involve America at all.”
Debate on American Foreign Policy
3:08 to 8:24
Exploration of America's foreign policy and its implications.
“a new axis of evil and the demise of American supremacy.”
China's Economic vs. Military Power
8:24 to 12:31
Analysis of China's approach to global influence through economics.
“Therefore, building a kind of economic imperialistic power, but not a military one, necessarily.”
Concerns Over Taiwan and China's Intentions
12:31 to 14:00
Discussion on Taiwan's future and China's military strategies.
“Well, I don't think we should ignore it.”
Taiwan's Unique Identity and Defense
14:00 to 16:40
Explore the complexities of Taiwan's identity and its defense capabilities against a potential Chinese invasion.
“And the people in Taiwan who believe they're Chinese in these self-identification surveys is always below 5%.”
China's Perception of Trump's Policies
16:40 to 19:20
Understand how Trump's tariffs and foreign policies are viewed in China and their implications for U.S.-China relations.
“So honestly, I mean, Donald Trump is very popular in China, but he's popular for the reason that Chinese people feel that China's getting stronger with this.”
The Role of India in Global Alliances
19:20 to 22:20
Discuss the significance of India's position amidst rising tensions between China and the U.S.
“But the fact remains is that we went through the Cold War period where China was besties with Russia.”
The Limits of Military Engagement
23:10 to 26:20
Analyze the implications of military strategies and the reality of U.S. global presence.
“Well, I mean, and nobody's added to that list also enough H-bombs to blow up the entire world.”
U.S. Global Influence and Economic Models
26:20 to 28:00
Evaluate the effectiveness of U.S. foreign policies compared to China's global approach.
“And it was really the advice of the founding fathers, right?”
Show all 20 chapters
Trump's Relationships and Business Interests
28:00 to 29:29
Discussion on Trump's connections with Pakistan and India, and his motivations behind trade policies.
“And we know for Trump, business matters.”
Trump's Transactional Approach to Politics
29:30 to 31:10
Exploration of Trump's negotiation style and how it affects international relationships.
“But secondly, I don't even think this is about trade.”
Current Diplomatic Challenges for India and Trump
32:15 to 34:22
Discussion about the diplomatic tensions between India and the U.S. under Trump's administration.
“despite some serious misgivings in India about China's support to Pakistan, tells you that diplomacy is the art of the possible.”
The Impact of Trump's Foreign Policy
34:23 to 38:48
Analysis of Trump's foreign policy and its effects on global relations, especially with Russia and China.
“and who knows, perhaps a frozen conflict, although abhorable, will at least be shorter than the Kashmir problem that Pakistan and India have been unable to solve for years and years.”
Trump's Peace Initiatives and War Aversion
38:49 to 42:00
Discussion on Trump's approach to war and peace, including his views on conflicts in the Middle East and Ukraine.
“Went to Saudi Arabia for the first time back in February.”
The Complexity of Global Leadership
42:00 to 45:53
Explore the nuanced discussions around political leadership and international relations.
“SELIMANI, HE PUT IRAN BACK IN THE BOX AND WE SEE WITH THE TARGETING OF THIS VENEZUELAN DRUG BOAT, I THINK WE ARE GOING TO SEE A BETTER MADURO IN THE FUTURE.”
War Policies and American Interests
45:53 to 49:39
Debate on the impact of U.S. foreign policies and military interventions.
“I think the idea of talking about Nobel Peace Prizes or praising him for what he's done in Iran or Syria or Gaza is ridiculous.”
China's Global Aspiration
49:39 to 56:00
Understand China's ambitions and its role in the global landscape.
“There was, of course, the Libya war spilled into Niger and, you know, we were working with the Ethiopians and all this.”
America's Global Reputation Under Trump
56:00 to 58:09
The discussion focuses on America's waning influence and reputation globally due to Trump's actions.
“There's been so many wars, so many conflicts, so many trillions of U.S.”
India's Stance on Sovereignty and Relations with the US
58:10 to 59:58
Exploring India's response to US pressure and their emphasis on sovereignty amidst global political dynamics.
“but also because globalisation equals westernisation for large sections of the Indian elite or middle class.”
Transcript
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1:04Piers Morgan:There could be another superpower world order that doesn't involve America at all. I'm an American. I don't root for Russia or China or India or North Korea, but maybe it's not the worst thing in the world that this moment is ending. Donald Trump right now very much is acting like a fascist dictator. And I think that China simply sees an opportunity. I think what India is trying to say to Trump with those images in China is Donald Trump, India has options, and you're not our schoolyard bully anymore. The fact remains is the Indian arrogance that's been displayed to President Trump manifests itself in the fact that we are now becoming much closer to Pakistan.
1:45That should actually give India some pause. It's this constant saber-rattling of what the new war is supposed to be, even when it comes to countries like Russia and China, who, Pierce, we both know we can't fight wars with.
1:59Piers Morgan:China's vast military parade today was officially held to mark 80 years since the country defeated Japan in the Second World War. But really, it was about sending a message. And the message was not very subtle. This is the first time that China's Xi Jinping, North Korea's Kim Jong-un, and Russia's Vladimir Putin have ever appeared together. And the world's premier dictators watched a staggering display of military heft, including nuclear ballistic missiles, laser weapons, giant underwater drones and robot wolves. In all honesty, it was probably a bit closer to what President Trump imagined for his own parade in Washington, D.C.
2:37Piers Morgan:earlier this year. And the U.S. president, who was deliberately not invited, sounded a bit jilted. Please give my warmest regards to Putin and Kim Jong-un, he wrote to the Chinese leader, as you conspire against the United States of America. Well, conspiring or not, the so-called anti-NATO alliance wants the Western world to know that it means business. India's Modi's also been glad-handing in Beijing this week, which many believe was another sign that Trump's trade war and his new bromance with NATO have brought the world's other big powers together. There's excitable talk about a new Cold War, a new axis of evil and the demise of American supremacy.
3:13Piers Morgan:But there's a counter-argument too. One that says America's power should end at its borders and that the people who talk about axes of evil have delivered nothing more than debt and war. So is Xi Jinping the new sheriff of the World Police? And if so, how afraid should we be? Well, to debate all this, I'm joined by Barker Dutt, the founder and host of Mojo Story, by Cyrus Janssen, a geopolitical analyst, by Dave Smith, host of Part of the Problem, by General Mark Kimmett, the former Assistant Secretary for political and military affairs, and by Gordon Chang, author of Plan Red, China's Project to Destroy America.
3:49Piers Morgan:So a stellar panel. Welcome to all of you to Uncensored. Welcome back in most cases. Dave Smith, let me start with you here. It's quite a menacing image, wasn't it, of Putin, Kim Jong-un, Xi Jinping marching together in what appeared to be a pretty big statement to the world that there could be another superpower world order that doesn't involve America at all. Yeah, well, I think that's certainly the message that they're trying to send, that the unipolar moment is over. And, of course, I believe it was Charles Krauthammer who coined the term, and even he called it the unipolar moment. It was never inevitable that forever there would be one lone superpower in the world.
4:36And, in fact, that moment after the collapse of the Soviet Union, what was remarkable about it was its uniqueness. There really hadn't ever been such a dominant superpower that was the lone superpower in the world. I would say that from my perspective, I'm an American and what I care about is my country and the people of the United States of America. And I think that as you kind of laid out the counter argument at the beginning there, the unipolar moment was a disaster for the United States of America. And I think it was like Lord Atkin broke it down many years ago that it was just simply too much power concentrated in Washington, D.C.
5:14The neoconservatives who hijacked our foreign policy wrote very explicitly about this in the 1990s. Anyone can read it for themselves. The Project for a New American Century documents are still available online where they decided that because we have so much power now, What we need to do is fight wars on multiple fronts against countries that pose no real threat to the United States of America. And our country is in a much weaker place now than we were in 1991 in many ways, drowning in debt and have totally lost our moral standing around the world as we just sit on mountains of the corpses of innocent people for these wars of choice that we've decided to fight nonstop for decades.
5:55We still have troops in Iraq and Syria. We're launching preemptive wars of choice on Iran. We're backing a genocide in Gaza. And I don't see what this has achieved for the American people, other than drowning us in debt, getting a lot of innocent people killed, and making the world hate us. So I'm an American. I don't root for Russia or China or India or North Korea, but maybe it's not the worst thing in the world that this moment is ending.
6:22Piers Morgan:Barker Dutt, the interesting part of this to me is not that Russia is cozying up to China or North Korea. It's the presence of the Indian Prime Minister, Narendra Modi, because that follows Donald Trump and obviously the trade war, the 55 % tariff on India, which surprised many people who thought, well, hang on, America was getting on well with India and appeared to be parking that relationship well away from Russia, China, North Korea. Now suddenly, through this economic attack, if you like, on India, it seems to have driven India into the bosom of this new world order. How do you see it from India's perspective?
7:09Piers, I would agree that the unipolar moment is over, but I think Donald Trump has not got the memo. He is still behaving like he's the feudal warlord of the world, that he can wag his fingers at other sovereign nations, tell them to sit up, stand up, do push-ups, there's a good boy, and if they don't, they will be punished. From the Indian perspective, Trump's decision to impose a penalty of an additional 25 % on India for its purchase of Russian oil is basically seen by Indians as an affront to our sovereignty. India's ambassador to Moscow has made it clear that we as a country will buy oil where we get the best deal.
7:52To top it all, America's staggering hypocrisy is on full display. Let me just share a couple of data points with you. The Americans, and I don't know how many American people know this, America continues to import fertilizers, palladium, uranium from Russia. Between January and May, the import of palladium and uranium respectively has gone up by 37 percent and 28 percent the european union is buying refined oil from india that it's you know india's purchasing crude from russia refining it and the european union is buying it up to 15 billion dollars worth of oil imports and guess what alongside all of this india was also the largest supply of diesel to guess which country ukraine in july i think what india is trying to say to move to trump with those images in china is Donald Trump, India has options, and you're not our schoolyard bully anymore, or never were.
8:47Piers Morgan:Right. General Kim, from a military point of view, it struck me just looking at this from afar, that for many years, China's been waging what many think is a kind of economic form of imperialism, particularly in places like Africa, for example, going into African countries, paying off the debt in some cases, providing a lot of infrastructure, bridges, schools, hospitals, and so on, but getting their hands on vast amounts of minerals and resources and so on. Therefore, building a kind of economic imperialistic power, but not a military one, necessarily. How worried should people start to be getting now, given the imagery coming out of this new apparent world order, about China's military power?
9:37Well, first of all, let me talk about India. The fact remains is the Indian arrogance that's been displayed to President Trump manifests itself in the fact that we are now becoming much closer to Pakistan. Field Marshal Mounir has now become and has a bromance with President Trump that should actually give India some pause. Now, back to your larger question about China, you're exactly right. The issue is where we used to roll tanks, China now is rolling debt bombs. You take a look at a number of the nations that China has invested in, and they have brought many of those countries to near bankruptcy.
10:18But I agree with you about China's commercial sovereignty. I'm in the Middle East right now, and you can't swing a dead cat without running into a Chinese businessman. It's very, very effective. China comes on very loose terms and their loose terms are simply, we don't want to get involved in your internal affairs and we will lend you money and we'll build your infrastructure. That's not a bad deal, particularly for the African nations, until those African nations can no longer manage the debt.
10:51Piers Morgan:So just purely on the military aspect, from a military perspective, how concerned are you about the fact that China is now flexing its muscle in terms of these images, in terms of its parades and so on, with Russia, with North Korea, now with India as well? Is this something we should be concerned about or is a lot of this posturing, do you think? Now everybody knows how much I enjoy my tea and I'm very happy to say that today's show is sponsored by Peaks Pure Fermented Teas. These are not your average brews. They're sourced from 250-year-old wild trees in the Himalayan foothills which are untouched by modern farming.
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12:20Piers Morgan:Visit peaklife.com slash peers. That's peak, P-I-Q-U-E, life.com slash peers. Well, I don't think we should ignore it. I mean, you're looking at capability right now on your screen. The fact remains is, though, these look very much like the Russian parades that have been held since 1945, victory in World War II. And the fact remains is that Ukraine has demonstrated that Russia in many, many ways is a paper tiger. Now, you can't deny the scale and the scope of the Chinese military. But three things. Number one, China has never invaded outside of their territory. Number two, if they want to take over Taiwan anytime soon, it would be a disaster for China, the casualties that they would undertake.
13:15Because, number three, let's be candid, China will eventually have sovereignty over Taiwan. It won't be done through their military power. It will be done the way they took over sovereignty in Hong Kong. It's just a natural evolution, and we know the Chinese are patient.
13:32Piers Morgan:Gordon Chang, I think you were shaking your head there. So what is your response to what General Kim has said? The future of Taiwan certainly is uncertain. And there are a lot of reasons that you can talk about why China will not invade Taiwan or take it over in another way. Got to remember that the people in Taiwan, they self-identify not as Chinese, but overwhelmingly as Taiwanese. Self-identification surveys show basically 80 percent or more believe that they are not Chinese. And the people in Taiwan who believe they're Chinese in these self-identification surveys is always below 5%. Now, this is not to say China will never take over Taiwan, but it is to say it's certainly not inevitable because the people in Taiwan are very different from the people in Hong Kong who did believe that they're Chinese.
14:22And indeed, there's also 110 miles of water between China and Taiwan. And about 70 % of Taiwan is mountainous, which is perfect terrain for defenders. I also think that it's going to be very unpopular for China to invade Taiwan because the people in China don't want it for a lot of reasons. If we're going to worry about a country that China invades, think about the South China Sea, especially Scarborough Shoal, Second Thomas Shoal. Those are places where there is extremely belligerent Chinese activity at the present time, and that could spark a war because China cannot de-escalate now. It cannot act with the national community.
15:02Piers Morgan:Cyrus Jansen, you spent a lot of time in China. You're pretty pro-Chinese. Are they looking at what's happening in the United States with what many perceive to be a pretty chaotic strategy with tariffs and so on? Are they looking at this as an opportunity that with America seemingly prepared to damage and fracture relations with even close neighbours like Canada and so on, that there's an opportunity here for China to exploit this? Piers, you're spot on. I think the sentiment in China right now is that there's a great opportunity. I mean, there's actually a saying for Trump. He has a nickname in China, which is Jianguo, which literally means to build the country.
15:44So the Chinese people really feel that Donald Trump, through his tariffs and through his actions as president, I mean, this is very ironic. Right now, China is celebrating the 80-year victory over fascism, and Donald Trump right now very much is acting like a fascist dictator in how he is ruling the United States of America. He is compromising many of the fundamentals of our constitution and doing many things that simply go against what we stand for in the United States or what we're supposed to stand for. And I think that China simply sees an opportunity. And this is what if you talk to people in China, they see that, you know, Chinese people are always willing to open up to do business.
16:20I mean, American businesses have been thriving in China for many, many decades. There's always an opportunity. We talk about Africa. I mean, if you look at Africa, 53 of 54 nations in Africa have pledged their allegiance to China in an earlier summit that was held by Xi Jinping earlier this year. Generally speaking, I mean, this you can look at Western surveys, over 300 surveys. They actually point to the fact that China is indeed actually very popular amongst the people in Africa because they bring real tangible benefits to the continent, not this colonial past that the United States and European allies do.
16:52So honestly, I mean, Donald Trump is very popular in China, but he's popular for the reason that Chinese people feel that China's getting stronger with this. We look at, for example, the sanctions against the tech industry. This has caused China to become faster, to become better. You put China in a corner, they're not going to give up. They're going to invent their way out of this situation. And this is even what was said by Donald Trump. He said, look, we cannot tariff the semiconductor industry anymore because it will only motivate the Chinese to get better at what they're doing. And this is exactly why Donald Trump has this nickname of, you know, the country builder.
17:25And yes, I would say Chinese people are very optimistic about the future. And again, Donald Trump, I mean, you hit the nail on the head, Piers. Look at what he has done to our traditional allies. I'm also half Canadian. My wife is from Vancouver, Canada. It is amazing how he has destroyed the most important geopolitical relationship for the United States. And that's our closest ally, Canada.
17:47Piers Morgan:Let's play devil's advocate here. I mean, has he destroyed them or is he doing what Donald Trump often likes to do, which is chucking things up in the air and seeing what sticks? He's launched a global tariff war and quite a few countries, including my own, the United Kingdom, have rolled over pretty quickly and are now paying a lot more than they were before Trump came in to power for his second term. So there is a method to the apparent madness. He believes that tariffs can be used as a very effective bartering tool, and a lot of countries are prepared to go along with it. The issue, I think, that he may have here is that is the India part of this maybe what is surprising him and taking him a little bit, you know, a pause, perhaps, to think about it, because he's been very vocal about China for 40 years.
18:37Piers Morgan:Every interview I've ever done with Donald Trump, and there's dozens. He'll bring up China and how he believes that they've been aggressively going after American interests. So that's nothing surprising. Same with Russia, same with North Korea. India seems to me to be key to this. If India was to suddenly perceive this new axis together here... And let me bring in General Kimmer here, Ashir, on this. If India was to perceive that their new friends were the new axis, the new world order that we've all seen in these pictures today, How worrying would that be to you as a former U.S. general? Well, first of all, I think India brings a lot of capability to any alliance between China and the Chinese axis that you're trying to describe.
19:26But the fact remains is that we went through the Cold War period where China was besties with Russia. So we understand what it's like when we have China, India, either being part of a Russian access or part of a non-aligned movement. So yes, India has grown. I would offer with a significant amount of American technology, particularly in agriculture, but I'm not necessarily worried that in the long run, a democratic nation like India is going to cozy up and become aligned with a communist Leninist country like China. There's just natural incompatibilities. Just as Donald Trump is trying to use tariffs as a leverage point, I think Modi is trying to use alliances as a leverage point as well.
20:13So in the long run, I think the natural constituency between India, the world's largest democracy, and the United States will eventually settle down because if nothing else, Donald Trump will not be in power forever?
20:30Piers Morgan:Well, he might. We never know, do we? Because, I mean, Elon Musk is building these optimist humanoid robots, and the theory goes that we all might start having failing body parts replaced by robotic parts, so we slowly become robots. And I could quite see, Dave Smith, I could quite see Donald Trump being first in the line to extend his life and his tenure as president for as long as humanly, if not robotically possible. I've seen the Piers Morgan model, and it's not really pretty. Sorry, General Kivit, I missed that. I said I've seen the Piers Morgan model, and it's not very pretty. Thank you.
21:14Piers Morgan:Thank you for that little sidewinder. Yeah, I mean, Dave Smith, I mean, I think that if I'm... I'm not Donald Trump, but if I'm sitting there and I'm Donald Trump, This tariff war, I don't think, has been going nearly as badly from his perspective as a lot of other people would like it to be going. He's doing quite a few deals. He's getting better trade deals with a number of countries, like I said, including the United Kingdom. He will say win, win, win, win, and we'll keep going here and see how we end up. But China is not an average country. You know, population 1.45 billion people, active servicemen around 1.48 million.
21:54Piers Morgan:reserves, 1.15 million. Second largest standing army in the world. This is not a trifling matter, I don't think, what is going on here with India and the United States. What do you think? US national debt is more than$37 trillion. These are uncertain times for the global economy. It's enough to make you think, maybe now would be a good time to buy some gold. Whether it's a hedge against inflation, peace of mind during global instability, or just sensible diversification. Birch Gold Group believes that every American should own physical gold, and they've created something special. Until 30th September, if you're a first-time buyer, Birch Gold is offering a rebate of up to$10 ,000 in free metals on qualifying purchases.
22:42Piers Morgan:To start the process, request a free information kit now. Just text PIERS, P-I-E-R-S, to 989898. Make right now your first time to buy gold and take advantage of a rebate of up to$10 ,000 when you buy before the end of September. Text my name, Piers, to 989-898. Claim your eligibility and get your free information pack. Again, just text Piers to 989-898. Well, I mean, and nobody's added to that list also enough H-bombs to blow up the entire world. And so I think oftentimes we we think about these things almost as if there's going to be another World War Two style conventional war. But I think on some level, we all know that we simply can't risk that.
23:31I mean, there's not going to be a direct war between America and China or America and Russia. And if there is, that will quite possibly be the end of civilization. I think that another big missing piece from all of this is that, you know, essentially it was the policy of Joe Biden that pushed Russia into China's arms. Putin essentially had no other option than to cozy up with with the Chinese. And, you know, look, I would say, and as I've made this point many times on your show, Pierce, right, like the American people never had a referendum on empire. We never decided we wanted to be the global empire, the policeman of the world.
24:08And in fact, if you look at U.S. elections, George W. Bush in the year 2000 ran on a humble foreign policy, rejecting nation building, rejecting being the policeman of the world. I know it's hard for people to believe that now, but like that actually was what he ran on in the year 2000. Obama in 2008 ran as the peace candidate and people overwhelmingly voted for him. Donald Trump in 2016 and in 2024 ran as the peace candidate and won both of those elections. And, you know, it's just it's an outrage that our government in D.C. goes around bullying the world. I mean, imagine asking the Indians, you know, it's a similar thing happened a few years ago when Joe Biden went to the Saudis and asked them to lower the price of oil because he was dealing with price inflation from his policies over here.
24:54On what ground do we expect these other countries to do things that hurt their own people to benefit our empire? It's a ridiculous request. And so while you're right, while China's going around and offering these sweet deals to people, we do the opposite. The IMF comes in and offers loans and demands incredibly difficult things for countries to follow. You essentially have to be our sock puppet if you want to be propped up by the U.S. And this isn't about Donald Trump. This is what the U.S. government's been doing since the end of World War II, and then it really exploded after the collapse of the Soviet Union.
25:30But look, we already figured out, Pierce, and we know this on a theoretical level. If anyone wants to, I highly recommend read the book Socialism by Ludwig von Mises. Socialism does not work. But if the theory wasn't enough for you, you could just look at the empirical examples. I mean, we've had examples now with, you know, East Germany and West Germany of the same people, same culture, two different economic models in Korea as well. If you zoom out at this, we know what ends up winning the economic war. It's capitalism. Socialism doesn't work. And so if America really wants to be prosperous, then maybe we should think about drastic cuts in government spending and cuts in regulations.
Read the full transcript
26:10We know what will unleash the American economy. And it's never been tariffing every country or bullying every country around. And it's certainly never been starting stupid wars. And we have dramatically weakened our own standing in the world. We know what to do here. And it was really the advice of the founding fathers, right? Be friends with other nations. Trade with them. Get along with people. But instead, it's this constant saber rattling of what the new war is supposed to be, even when it comes to countries like Russia and China, who, Pierce, we both know we can't fight wars with. You know, one of the points that you've been making a lot over the last year and talking specifically about your military family is that, like, there are the logistics on the ground.
26:52There's reality that we bump up against. We can't retake Crimea from Vladimir Putin, even if we think it ought to belong to Ukraine. And so much of the time, you know, when these conversations about China taking Taiwan, it's like, well, then we'd have to fight a war with China. It's ridiculous. It's on the level of imagine if there was the political will and there was the political desire for the U.S. We decided we were going to take Juarez, Mexico. And then China said, we won't let you do that. How ridiculous does that sound? They can't stop us from doing that. And as the general, I'm sure will tell you, run the war games.
27:31We lose that war. So I think everybody should we should calm down. America has been fighting wars and spending ourselves deep into debt. China has been going around and doing business with people. Maybe that's a better model.
27:47Piers Morgan:Barkadar, I can see you nodding repeatedly there. A very unusual experience for Dave Smith, I think, when he's talking. But you were agreeing with what he was saying. Well, the essence of it, yes, about America being a big bully and that not working with many countries, including my own general kimmet uh made a point about the new cozy love fest between pakistan's field marshal asin mounir and the trump administration and said india should take pause india has noticed this so first of all if you want to make an argument about authoritarians on display at the china military parade well pakistan's field marshal was there as well pakistan was the only country where the army chief had to actually attend all the meetings alongside the so-called elected prime minister because we basically know pakistan's army runs pakistan so that's not a great point about authoritarians and democracy secondly i'm not sure how many people know that trump's family has a business link with the crypto council in pakistan and many people in india and there's been a lot of american reporting on this as well believe that trump's newfound love of pakistan in his second term has something to do with business dealings.
29:01And we know for Trump, business matters. The third point I'd like to make that none of you have spoken about, we're all acting like this is all about trade. It's only about trade. Listen, India has been slapped with a punishment, right? The 25 % of the 50 % is a penalty because India buys Russian oil. China buys more oil from Russia than India does. China hasn't been slapped with that penalty because China has choke points with the United States of America that clearly Trump believes India does not. So first, this hypocrisy there. But secondly, I don't even think this is about trade. I think Trump is having a massive sulk because Pakistan thinks he should get the Nobel.
29:41He wanted India to make the same point in public. India refused. He wanted India to say, thank you, Trump. You helped India end the war, the four-day military conflict with Pakistan. India said, look, you made the phone calls, but we did our own thing. We ended this on our own terms. He made the point about credit for ending that war about 40, 50 times till Indians were so bored with his claims, we stopped counting. So is this about Trump's ego being bruised, or is it about trade? You've got to ask that question.
30:11Piers Morgan:Well, it could be a bit of both, couldn't it? Let me bring Gordon Chang back in here. Yeah, but who is Trump to punish India? Like, who is Trump? Well, you know, I just think that when people say punish and so on, What Trump is doing is what he always does. Everything to him is a deal. He's a very transactional human being in his own life, in his professional life, as a politician, as a business guy, when he was selling real estate to now running this tariff war. And, you know, I've always said to people that you can massively overreact to Trump. You can underreact to him too. A lot of people overreact to Trump rather than focusing on what's actually happening in real time rather than what comes out of his mouth.
30:55Piers Morgan:A lot of it is just negotiating. And it wouldn't surprise me at all if the next image we see is Prime Minister Modi and Trump laughing and joking and hugging each other and the 50-odd percent tariff coming crashing down again. Would it surprise you, Parker? Today's show is brought to you by Oxford Natural, makers of the Optimum Day and Optimum Night, all-natural supplements. Thousands of Brits and Americans are already taking them. with incredible results. Optimum Day is designed to boost your energy and support weight loss throughout the day. Optimum Night helps you relax and get deep, refreshing sleep.
31:34Piers Morgan:And don't just take their word for it. Here are just a few of their success stories. England football legend Michael Owen lost£40. Robbie, the face of AFTV, dropped over£100. Linda, a top Laurel Firm executive, lost£50. And Anita, an immigration lawyer, shed£60. To watch their full stories and find out more, scan the QR code on your screen or visit OxfordNatural.com slash peers. And here's the best part. Use the code peers, P-I-E-R-S, and get 70 % off your first order. Get 70 % off with the promo code peers. You know what? The fact that Modi is in China after seven years, despite some serious misgivings in India about China's support to Pakistan, tells you that diplomacy is the art of the possible.
32:25So no, it would not surprise me, except there's one problem here with your theory. There's enough reporting, enough sources in both countries that suggest that a phone call between Modi and Trump went particularly badly on the 70th of June. Trump wanted Modi to come to Washington on the same day that Pakistan's army chief was there. The Indian prime minister said no, as any Indian prime minister would. Trump wanted a certain amount of credit for his role as he assigns himself that role. Modi said there's no room for mediation in these military conflicts. And that conversation went south. The problem is not to take away from the deep bipartisan support for a good India-America relationship.
33:06And it has been there in both countries. The problem is somebody needs to come up with a way to break the impasse. And that route is not visible. Had he walked away with the success from his Alaska summit, maybe he'd have no context to impose a penalty for buying Russian oil anymore. But he's failed on that as of now. And so things are kind of stuck. But yes, in the long run, it's all possible.
33:31Piers Morgan:And General Kimmy, let's talk just quickly about Ukraine here and repercussions for what's going on there with the war. A, do you see any immediate repercussions from what we're seeing with this new world order gathering for Ukraine? I mean, answer that question first. Do you think there's any significance to this if you're Ukraine in this scenario? No, I think right now Ukraine is a bit of a one-off in the sense that that is a European conflict. It goes back to the days of NATO. We can argue all day about whether NATO enlargement should have gone up to the gates of Moscow. But the fact is that right now, the issue that's going on between Ukraine and Russia is a European problem.
34:22And I think we're starting to get in a position where there's some proposals out there that might bring this thing at least to a ceasefire. and who knows, perhaps a frozen conflict, although abhorable, will at least be shorter than the Kashmir problem that Pakistan and India have been unable to solve for years and years. So the fact of the reason is I don't think that there's anything...
34:46Piers Morgan:Yeah, how much credit, out of interest, General Kim, do you give Donald Trump for resolving the recent flare-up between India and Pakistan? Well, first of all, I think what Donald Trump is trying to do is notch up his rhetoric with some numbers. He now is walking around saying he is the guy that stopped seven conflicts, and now he's going to try to do that as he did in Azerbaijan and Armenia. He's going to try to do that and try to take credit for that in the recent flare-up between Pakistan and India. Now, again, you are exactly right. Those that know how to talk to Donald Trump know that the answer is not to say to him, no, you had nothing to do with it, as Modi did.
35:36But on the same time, when Field Marshal Mounir goes, Mr. President, if it wasn't for your intervention, the war would still be going on. Look, that's no way to run foreign policy. But the fact remains is, as you said, Donald Trump is a businessman. He not only conducts his foreign policy transactionally, but he also conducts his foreign policy and his domestic policy personally. Now, whether that's right or wrong, I think most people would prefer that's not the way that America is seen around the world. but he's the man that America elected and unless he's either forced out of office or elected out of office, I think we're going to see more of that because I don't see Donald Trump changed at any time soon.
36:29Perhaps Gordon Chang may feel differently about that. No one ever wants to argue against Gordon Chang but that's the way I see it.
36:36Piers Morgan:Well, let's get an argument with Gordon Chang. Gordon? Well, I think the important thing here is that we need to put Donald Trump in context. Yes, he's transactional. Yes, he's very personal. And I don't like that. But on the other hand, I think he has some long-term goals. So, for instance, with China and certainly with Russia, I think he's giving both Moscow and Beijing off-ramps because he's trying to settle these things with a minimum loss of life. And that's an important thing. Trump has a generous streak in him because he is a business person and he doesn't see the geopolitical aspects of this.
37:16But at some point, I think you will see Trump start to actually impose severe costs on both Moscow and Beijing, and we very well may see some good results here. The thing about Trump is that he's actually been very successful. You know, China 14 months ago looked like it was going to take over the Middle East. Trump in May does that three-nation tour, and the region has changed. We saw this with Thailand and Cambodia recently, where Trump was able to stop a conflict, which was very close to China, and China had almost no role. China did have – Trump did have some role in India, Pakistan, maybe not as great as he thinks.
37:56But we are seeing Trump change the world. For all the talk in China about how they are dominant, Trump is changing the world. And one more thing, Tears, on trade, which you talked about, with these trade deals, especially with the ones with the EU and the one in Britain in May, Trump is redirecting trade away from China. And that is important because China right now is extraordinarily trade dependent, probably more so than it's been in this communist period. And so Trump is doing a number on China right now at a time when China is actually quite fragile. So, you know, maybe Trump fails, but let's give him a little bit more time because I think we're going to see some of these initiatives actually work out as Trump tries to start to impose those costs on others, which he needs to do.
38:48Piers Morgan:Yeah, you know, very interesting you mentioned the Middle East there, because I've been to the Middle East a lot this year. Went to Saudi Arabia for the first time back in February. I was at the Emir of Qatar state dinner for Trump in Doha. I went to Dubai. There is a real dynamism in the Middle East there, in those countries in particular, which Trump has tapped into. And Trump's speech, I felt, in Riyadh, just before he went to Qatar on that week-long trip, was really significant. I don't think he got nearly enough credit for that. He was like, you know, we spent years, you know, the sort of neocons bombing the hell out of the Middle East.
39:25Piers Morgan:and actually what these countries want to do now, they want to drive out to us. They want to give us their stuff. They want to be creators and be dynamic, and that's what they're doing. And we should let them do that, and we should encourage them and work with them. And I thought that was a very significant speech by an American president. I also think you touched on there about his aversion to war. I don't think Trump gets nearly enough credit for that. And it's not to say Trump is a perfect human being. He's not. He's very flawed in many ways. But for a Republican American president in modern times to be so clearly against warfare, because he believes, A, it's a terrible loss of life, that B, it's a terrible waste of money, and that C, America has its own problems it needs to sort out without having wars all over the place, personally, I find that very refreshing.
40:14Piers Morgan:You know, I compare that with the rhetoric of someone like George W. Bush, for example, and it's chalk and cheese. You know, I opposed the Iraq war when I said it's of a Daily Mirror. And I think I was vindicated with that. So I just think that Trump, because of his personality, you know, you talk about him being transactional and wanting these relationships as being an issue. I kind of like it. And maybe I'm being naive, and maybe it will all blow up in his face. But if ultimately the end of this, Trump somehow barrels his way to peace between Ukraine and Russia, peace ending the terrible Israel-Hamas war, which has reached this awful quagmire too, If he could manage to do that, then I'd give him a Nobel Peace Prize.
40:55Piers Morgan:And if on the trade front, America ends up with better trade relations with most of its trading partners and they haven't all fallen out, they're all meeting for a nice little, you know, whatever he has, Big Mac and a nice Coca-Cola to celebrate. Well, you know, yeah, OK, I'll put up with a bit of rough and tumble along the way. Now, Gordon, am I being naive? CAN BELIEVE? NO, NOT AT ALL. BECAUSE WE DO SEE IN TRUMP THESE THEMES, AND THESE THEMES ARE IMPORTANT ONES. SO, YOU KNOW, WHEN WE TALK ABOUT, YOU TALKED ABOUT THE MIDDLE EAST. SYRIA. HE HAS TURNED SYRIA AROUND. THIS IS UNBELIEVABLE. AND THIS IS TRUMP AT HIS BEST.
41:37TRUMP UNDERSTOOD THAT AMERICAN THE PEOPLE WHO ARE GOING TO SANCTIONS ON SYRIA WERE BASED ON ASSAD. ASSAD WAS GONE. SO HE SAYS I'M GIVING SYRIA A CHANCE TO JOIN THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY. THIS IS REALLY IMPORTANT. THIS IS A THEME THAT WE ARE GOING TO SEE. THE OTHER THING, PIERS, IS THAT TRUMP IS WILLING TO USE AMERICAN POWER. HE DOES IT IN SMALL DOSES. FOR INSTANCE, HE KILLED SELIMANI, HE PUT IRAN BACK IN THE BOX AND WE SEE WITH THE TARGETING OF THIS VENEZUELAN DRUG BOAT, I THINK WE ARE GOING TO SEE A BETTER MADURO IN THE FUTURE. NOW, I COULD BE WRONG, BUT THE POINT IS WITH THESE PINPRICKS OF FORCE, HE HAS BEEN ABLE TO MOVE THE WORLD IN BETTER DIRECTIONS.
42:20AND THAT'S ANOTHER THEME THAT WE DON'T GIVE HIM CREDIT FOR. Yeah.
42:24Piers Morgan:Can I respond to that a little bit, Pierce? Yeah, sure. Then I want to bring in SARS. But Dave, yeah, go on. Yeah, I mean, look, I liked some of the stuff you were saying there at the beginning. And I do think that speech was one of the best speeches of Trump's life. And I do love that Donald Trump does at least seem to think about the human cost of war. It kind of exposes what monsters some of these other leaders are that doesn't even seem to come up. And Dave, on that point, I have literally had a phone conversation with Donald Trump several times now this year where he has talked really powerfully about Ukraine and the loss of life on both sides, comparing it to kind of the First World War, Flanders, you know, these terrible scenes of open fields, thousands being gunned down on a weekly basis.
43:08Piers Morgan:He feels this is... I've never heard him talk like that about human life. Yeah, but at the same time... So it's a real thing. It isn't the same in public. I agree, and that's, you know, an interesting element to it. But look, as I've said on your show before, ever since Barack Obama won a Nobel Peace Prize, they just mean absolutely nothing. I mean, if the guy who escalated the war in Afghanistan, launched a war in Libya, launched a covert war in Syria, launched a back the Saudis invading Yemen and continued the war in Somalia, his whole presidency, if that guy can get a peace prize, it's just ridiculous.
43:43But I'm sorry, nobody should get a Nobel Peace Prize if they're back in the genocide, completely facilitating the genocide of the Palestinian people. It's an outrage that we'd even discuss that. And to say that Syria is in a better place now, like as a New Yorker and as an American, I just find it so unbelievably offensive that we would say having the emir of al-Qaeda running the country is somehow an improvement over a secular dictator who wore a suit and shaved his chin every morning. I think it's just absolutely outrageous. Hang on, hang on, hang on, hang on. On that point, I mean,
44:16Piers Morgan:I mean, Assad was a lot worse than that characterisation. Assad was an absolute... He was an absolute monster. So I think it's an arguable point whether the people of Syria are in a better or worse place now. I think it's very arguable, and Trump has made this calculation, that actually they are better off investing some time and effort and hope with this guy who seems to be a changed guy, seems to be more moderate now in his outlook. Now, again, Trump might be wrong, but is he ever going to be worse than Assad was to Syrian people? I find that hard to believe. Well, I think, Pierce, I'm going to send you a couple books to read on this, but it was the CIA who started that civil war in Syria.
44:59And I'm not saying Assad didn't fight it brutally, but this was a policy of the Obama administration up to committing literal treason by sending weapons to al-Qaeda and ISIS knowingly. So, I mean, we could do this on another show, but no, I don't think that this was a wise policy or an improvement. And it absolutely destroyed that country, led to hundreds and hundreds of thousands of people dying in Syria. And look, our mutual friend, Patrick David, just had Benjamin Netanyahu on the other day. And what was he saying? Oh, what a success the 12-day war was and that's over? No, he was saying Iran's still working on nuclear weapons and intercontinental ballistic missiles and they could hit Florida.
45:38And so we're at halftime of that thing in Iran. And so I'm just, I do, I like the fact that Donald Trump actually seems to be moved by babies dying, not enough so that he'll stop sending Benjamin Netanyahu money and weapons. But it's nice that that's at least a thought there. But I'm sorry. I think the idea of talking about Nobel Peace Prizes or praising him for what he's done in Iran or Syria or Gaza is ridiculous. And they're all disasters that America doesn't have to be involved in. They're all wars and conflicts of choice. None of these countries pose a threat to the United States of America.
46:11This is, I think, when books are written by historians decades and centuries from now, this will be viewed as a time of just war hysteria, where the American people committed suicide, fighting war after war after war for no reason. And look, all of these countries that you just showed at the beginning there, why is it that they're all uniting together? IT'S BECAUSE THE U.S. BECAUSE THE U.S. BECAUSE THE U.S. BECAUSE THE U.S. BECAUSE D.C. IS A WAR HUNGRY, PSYCHOTIC, YOU KNOW, ORGANIZATION. I MEAN, KIM JUNG UN IS ONLY THERE BECAUSE KIM JUNG UN WAS PUTTING ON THE LIST. OH, HANG ON THERE. COME ON. NO, YOU KNOW, PUTIN AND XI JUNG PING AND KIM JUNG UN WERE ALWAYS SEEING THE WORLD IN THE SAME TERMS.
46:51THEY VIEWED THEIR INTEREST IN THE same ways. They identified the same enemy, which was the United States, even though we didn't think that way. So, no. When did we not think that way? Trump didn't push them together, and Biden didn't push them together. I didn't say Trump pushed them together. They were together from the get-go. George W. Bush. George W. Bush pushed them together. Yes, he did. What do you mean? When was this period where we didn't see any of them as enemies? When we put North Korea on the axis OF EVIL, EVEN THOUGH THEY HAD ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH 9-11? WAS THAT US REACHING OUT AN OLIVE BRANCH TO THEM?
47:25NO, OF COURSE IT WASN'T. BUT NORTH KOREA HAS FROM THE VERY BEGINNING IDENTIFIED THE UNITED STATES AS ITS ENEMY AND IT'S ACTUALLY KILLED SOME AMERICANS, LIKE 36 ,000 OF THEM DURING THE KOREAN WAR. SO, YOU KNOW, IF WE WANT TO START TALKING ABOUT THAT. BUT THE PERIOD HERE, THOUGH, IS THAT PUTIN AND XI JINPING, WHICH IS REALLY THE IMPORTANT STORY, were together from the very beginning because they identified the world in a very different way. They calculated their interests in a very different way. And, you know, it's not Biden pushing them together. It's not Trump pushing them together or previous presidents.
48:00This is the way the world was, and we refuse to acknowledge it. I also think... It's absolutely removed from reality to say that Joe Biden did not push that relationship closer together. But I would have two observations, Dave, about what you said.
48:15Piers Morgan:One is, I believe I'm right in saying, and General Kim, it may correct me, I believe I'm right in saying that there are fewer wars today raging in the world than there have ever been in recorded history. So this concept that somehow this is the war era that we're living through, actually, the planet's always been pretty full of war. And secondly, I think there's a naivety, Dave, and I say this with great respect because I love you, as you know, but there's this idea that none of these foreign conflicts at all have any impact on American security, I think that's for the birds. I think there are many people around the world who are fundamentalist in their view, who view America as the epitome of Western evil, who would, if they were allowed to walk around unchallenged, would do very bad things to America and Americans.
49:06Piers Morgan:So I just don't think it's possible. I'm not making the claim, but I'm not making the claim that this doesn't affect American security. I think American security is greatly degraded by the war on terrorism. And look, Pierce, yes, there have been horrible times before. We fought two world wars in the 20th century. I'm not saying there haven't been periods of greater war. But in the last 25 years, the United States of America has fought aggressive wars of choice against Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Libya, Somalia, Yemen. There was the drone bombing campaign in Pakistan. There was, of course, the Libya war spilled into Niger and, you know, we were working with the Ethiopians and all this.
49:45And every last one of these conflicts, which has cost the American taxpayer $8 trillion, has led to 30 ,000 of our bravest young men blowing their brains out and has led to millions and millions of innocent civilians killed, were all done to countries that posed no threat to us. If you want to argue that Adolf Hitler's Nazi Germany or Joseph Stalin's communist Russia or something like that posed a threat to us, fine. But come on, Pierce, the Houthis in Yemen, were they going to overthrow the United States of America? Now, I'm not saying that none of these people are bad actors or there couldn't be acts of terrorism.
50:24In fact, I would argue that most of that terrorism is blowback that is caused by our foreign policy or at least contributed to by our foreign policy. But let's get real here. These aren't nations that threaten in the United States of America, and there was no need for us to fight wars against any of them.
50:38Piers Morgan:General Kimmett, I think, and Saras, I haven't forgotten you. I'm going to come to you in a moment and let you have a proper contribution here. But General Kimmett, your response to what Dave Smith just said? Well, I think there's a little bit of truth to what Dave says, but I think when you start putting things in the wrong context, you might come up with the wrong conclusions. He is right that these nations, such as Yemen, and do not pose a threat to the United States. But these are nations that provide sanctuary and safe haven to transnational threats, such as al Qaeda and ISIS and others, who, as you would say...
51:15But I thought we're supporting al Qaeda now. I'm not sure we are, but that's an assertion. But I think the more important argument is we flare off into litigating the last 25 years. In the current situation, it has to be recognized that no American soldiers were killed during Donald Trump's first administration. And there have been none killed in his second administration. And that, to Donald Trump, is the only metric that matters. How many American soldiers, sons and daughters, you're putting into the grave. And that's what drives, in many ways, this war policy that you have indicted the entire America for policy for the last 25 years.
51:59And that's where you have Donald Trump, who, like you, completely rejects these wars of choice, these optional wars against nations versus transnational threats. No American soldiers have been killed. And that's all that matters to Donald Trump.
52:16Piers Morgan:Yeah, I think that's very well worth pointing out. Cyrus, let me come to you. You've heard a lot of opinion here. At the core of this, you've got the two superpowers. You've got the United States of America, you've got China. They are both huge superpowers. Historically, America has been number one. It's very arguable now that that is still the case. We may not know the full extent of China's power, but you know China well. What do you think China's actual aspiration is for the world? It's a great question, Piers, and I think it's very simple when you look at how China has transformed over the last 40 years.
52:54I mean, let's not forget that over 800 million people in China have been lifted out of poverty into the middle class. I think when you go to China and you spend time there, Piers, you know this firsthand. You made an amazing documentary of your time in Shanghai.
53:05Piers Morgan:Honestly, on that point, I went to Shanghai for three weeks and I was amazed. It was nothing. In a way, I haven't been as amazed until I went to Riyadh and discovered how different that was to the preconceived perception I've been led to believe it was like. But, yeah, I was stunned by China, actually. Well, let me put it this way. I was stunned by what I found in Shanghai, which is not, I know, the wider China. Fair enough. But what's interesting, you know, I mean, you went to Shanghai, which is the most cosmopolitan, most advanced modern society, you know, in China, the biggest city. But go to the fifth tier, sixth tier cities, go to villages that have been transformed over the last 20 years, you'll be able to see continuous progress throughout all of China, you know, from the big cities down to the small cities.
53:47Pierce, there was a 10-year Harvard Business Review where they actually polled Chinese citizens and actually wanted to see the level of support for the government. But when you go down to these rural areas, these villages, this is where you find the biggest amount of support for China's government because they see the tangible results. I think that to answer the key point of your question is, you know, what is China's vision for the world? What does China want to achieve? You know, the first thing is, is they have to take care of 1.4 billion people. Right along with India, China has one of the most populous nations in the world.
54:16It has a tremendous amount of responsibility. Yes, there's economic downturn right now, real estate crisis. I mean, it's not all, you know, roses over there in China, but they're learning to deal with that. They're adapting, they're changing strategies. Again, they're moving forward, renewable energy, things that are completely transforming the future of our entire world. When you look at the global south, And this is why the BRICS organization and the global south is thriving right now and why there's so much momentum in this movement because a lot of people around the world. And again, you have to remove yourself from this Western media bubble and people that want to fear monger about China and preach to you that China wants China hates America.
54:53China wants to take down America. That couldn't be further from the truth. Chinese people, when you go there and connect with them, they want to do business with America. Chinese has always been welcome to American business. And the simple fact is, is that I think China wants to have a multipolar world. They're never going to say, hey, we don't want you to work with America. We don't want you to work with the United States. In reality, China has been very, you know, appreciative of America. They've been recognizing, hey, look, you're a superpower. We're a superpower. Why don't we, you know, if you're a developing country in Africa, why don't you do business with both of us?
55:22We're not saying that you should only do business with China. But unfortunately, that is not the same case for the United States, which we continually go to Africa and we don't provide any investment. We don't provide any tangible benefits. We simply say you should not be doing business with China because they're not a democracy like we are. But yet look at the state of democracy in the United States. The vast majority of Americans would not agree that we are a democracy right now. So, again, it's looking into that mirror and looking at how we can improve ourselves. This is what China is doing.
55:48They're looking at how can they improve, how can they advance, and how can they take care of their society. The stark contrast between the two is you have a government that is looking forward, looking, taking care of their society. I couldn't agree more with what Dave's analysis today. Spot on. There's been so many wars, so many conflicts, so many trillions of U.S. dollars that has been wasted for the American public. This is the biggest problem. And so, and again, what I see right now is a big problem. I'm a U.S. citizen. I'm a proud American. I love my country. But I see us being isolated on the world stage because of the actions of Donald Trump.
56:20And I've never seen America's reputation amongst the world, you know, at the lowest point it is right now. You're a European. You understand this. Go to Europe. What is Americans' perception in Europe right now? Go to Canada. Go to Asia. People perceive America completely different.
56:34Piers Morgan:Well, you know, I actually think it's more complicated, because, I mean, take my country, the UK. Well, I'm in London at the moment. A lot of people this time around with Trump, they've kind of got to know him. They know how he operates. They actually find him quite entertaining. They find him less scary, because they think a lot of it is just noise. And I would say he's more popular here than he was. certainly first time round. His trip to Scotland recently was marked very noticeable, very few protests. Last time there were loads of protests everywhere. I suspect when his state visit comes to the UK in three weeks, we'll probably see a few protests, but it won't be the same.
57:11Piers Morgan:A bit like in Manhattan a week before the election, when I went to his rally there, first one I'd ever been to, and there was no protest. You know, so the liberal world in New York just couldn't be bothered to turn out to protest. against someone they kept calling the new Hitler. So I do think that with Trump, hysteria is always a mistake with him. I think he uses that as fuel. But I also think he's not perfect. And he throws things up in the air and he sees what happens and he seizes on things that he thinks work and he can be quite, you know, along the way chaotic. I want to leave the last word to Barker as the lady of the panel.
57:51Piers Morgan:And it's this. Would you rather be mates with America or China? Look, I think India was leaning towards the United States of America quite clearly without being an ally. And that would be where the natural affinity would have lain because of a shared sort of set of democratic values, but also because globalisation equals westernisation for large sections of the Indian elite or middle class. You know, I myself studied and grew up in New York. And there are many, many sort of people like me. But that said, peers, despite my skepticism about China, despite my natural affinity with America as a nation state, I think my sense of pride and self-respect as an Indian is offended by any country and any leader assuming that it has the right to tell me and my country what to do, how to conduct ourselves, and so on.
58:49And I think what Americans are not getting about the Indian response is this. For us, this is not about tariffs and trade. And you can have a whole argument about this. For us, this is about sovereignty. We are still emerging from our history, you know, with the British. We're still emerging from our history with the empire. We're a new nation that had to fight for our autonomy, our independence. And I think for India, it is about that. I just want to make one quick last point. I don't know, we didn't mention that the Americans are actually taking a 10 % markup on weapons that they're now selling to Europe that are then being sent to Kyiv.
59:29So for Trump, everything is about business. So let's not pretend that this has a lot to do with morality and ideology, point one. Point two, unless Trump can cut a deal with the Chinese, and it's possible, anything is possible, The old American calculation that India was somehow going to be the counter-wailing force to the rise and rise of China in the Indo-Pacific, Trump has challenged and upended American calculations there. Forget what we're thinking. And somebody's got to think about whether that's smart.
59:59Piers Morgan:OK, I think that's a very good point to end on, because we don't know the answer yet, and we shall see. My guess is Trump will do a deal with India and there'll be all smiles at the end of all this, but I might be completely wrong. Thank you. Excellent panel, excellent debate. Much appreciated. Piers Morgan Uncensored is proudly independent. The only boss around here is me. If you enjoy our show, we ask for only one simple thing. Hit subscribe on YouTube and follow Piers Morgan Uncensored on Spotify and Apple Podcasts. And in return, we will continue our mission to inform, irritate and entertain.
1:00:35Piers Morgan:And we'll do it all for free. Independent, uncensored media has never been more critical and we couldn't do it without you.
From the publisher
China marked 80 years since Japan’s defeat with a huge military parade - but the real goal was to send a message to the West.
For the first time, Xi Jinping, Vladimir Putin, and Kim Jong-Un appeared together, overseeing nuclear missiles, underwater drones, laser weapons, and even “robot wolves.” Donald Trump, not invited, accused them of “conspiring against the United States.”
Adding to the show of strength, India’s Narendra Modi was also in Beijing this week - fuelling talk of an “Anti-NATO Alliance,” a new Cold War, and the decline of U.S. supremacy.
Is this just propaganda on parade, or a real shift in global power?
Joining Piers Morgan to discuss is Host of Part of the Problem, Dave Smith, former Assistant Secretary for Political-Military Affairs, General Mark Kimmitt, Indian journalist and TV anchor, Barkha Dutt, and geopolitical analyst Cyrus Janssen.
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