Captain Steeeve on Cheating Death After Almost Flying 9/11 Plane, 25 Years On

0:00Piers Morgan:It was First Officer Tom McGuinness who took your place. Do you know how that happened, that he came to be the one that took over? Tom just made a decision at the last minute to take Flight 11, which in the airline business happens all of the time. And it's no big deal unless the next day is 9-11 and Flight 11 is the first airplane that gets hijacked. It's still a moment, right? There's still, there's a place inside where a feeling belongs. and I don't... It's just empty. Even after 25 years, I still don't know how to feel about that moment. 9-11 is the most consequential event in world history since the Second World War.

0:41Piers Morgan:Almost 3 ,000 people died that day. Many millions died in the wars that followed. And from surveillance to security and to society itself, nothing has ever been the same again. For that reason, we know an extraordinary amount about it. There are stories of amazing serendipity, like Seth MacFarlane missing one of the flights because of a hangover. Others are grimly ironic. The FBI's top Bin Laden investigator took a new job a couple of weeks before 9-11 as a chief of security at the World Trade Center. Some stories are infuriating, like the decision to effectively ignore the erratic and suspicious behaviour of the hijackers and their flight classes.

1:16Piers Morgan:My next guest has a personal story that is as extraordinary, frankly, as any of them. At 7.59am on 9-11, American Airlines Flight 11 took off from Boston Logan International Airport. 47 minutes later, it hit the North Tower of the World Trade Center. Captain Steve Scheidner was supposed to be flying it, and he joins me now. Well, Captain Steve, great to have you back on Uncensored. I didn't know this story about you, and it's a quite extraordinary story, because you were supposed to be flying that plane. Why, in the end, did you not fly it? Well, I was a first officer at the time based out of Boston, and I was on what the airlines call reserve, which means I'm a pilot that's ready to fill in for another pilot that, for whatever reason, can't make it.

2:03And it was the right seat of Flight 11 that was open. It had been open for about four or five days prior to 9-11. And no senior pilots filled in the seat. It stayed open until the day before, on the 10th, when then crew scheduling at the airline will call you up. And if you're on reserve, they go down through a pecking order. I was the only guy on reserve on call on the 11th. So the computer automatically assigned my name to the trip. I had looked at it on the computer. I saw my name on the manifest. I told my wife I'm going to LA tomorrow. I packed my bags, put them in the back of the car. And they finalized the assignment via a phone call, usually within about 30 minutes.

2:42And they never called, which was very unusual. I can count on maybe three fingers the amount of times over the years that I got assigned a trip and then they never called. Somebody else ended up taking it. And it ended up that I got bumped off the trip by a more senior pilot at the very last minute. And that's why I didn't make it onto that trip. But I was originally scheduled. Somebody else bumped me. It's incredible.

3:05Piers Morgan:It was First Officer Tom McGuinness who took your place. Do you know how that happened, that he came to be the one that took over? Yeah, Tom was a line holding pilot. So I was on reserve ready to fill in. Tom held a regular line. So Tom can go in and if he's got space in his schedule, can fill in with another trip if he wants to just make some more money. And so Tom had been looking at the trip for a few days, apparently didn't pull the trigger on it just yet. He was celebrating his 42nd birthday on the 10th of September with his wife and his children. And then sometime around three o 'clock in the afternoon when they normally proffer the trips, Tom went and looked at it one more time.

3:47And he saw that my name had been assigned to the trip, but there's a little code next to my name that says they haven't called and confirmed the assignment. So it's a little blurry at this point, but I think Tom called and said, hey, can I still get that trip? It's up to the scheduler at that point. They can say no to him. But the scheduler said, yes. Tom talked to his wife, said, yep, I'll take the trip. And so at that point, then they erased my name off the trip. They put Tom's on it. That's his prerogative. But that's how I get bumped off the trip. Tom just made a decision at the last minute to take Flight 11, which in the airline business happens all of the time.

4:20And it's no big deal unless the next day is 9-11 and Flight 11 is the first airplane that gets hijacked.

4:26Piers Morgan:Well, where were you when you first heard that that plane had crashed into the North Tower? So since I didn't go flying for the airlines that day, I was working three jobs at the time. I was a pastor of a church up in Maine. I was also a Naval reservist, and I was working on a leadership project that I had written for the Navy. And so I went into the Navy base that day. It was in my commander's uniform. It was in my boss's office. And just like everybody else on the planet, all of a sudden we're watching the TV. And, you know, you mentioned the airplane took off at 759. 846 is a moment that for me lives in my, is seared into my memory.

5:05because 846 was that moment that the first airplane, Flight 11, the one I was supposed to be on, hit the first North Tower. But we're watching it on TV. It's transpiring. We saw the second airplane hit a few minutes later. At that moment, on the Navy base, we're thinking we're going to war. I mean, we really don't know what's going on. And people show up with guns, and we're running around. There's a lot of running around going on that day. I got locked down on the Navy base that day, all day, making contingencies. Fortunately, it was only four airplanes and not more. I think if you remember the news reports that day, the initial reports were as many as 10 airplanes have been hijacked.

5:42And so it was only four, two American, two United. We know where they all ended up now, looking back at it. It was later on that night when I finally got released from the Navy base, I went home. I had looked at the flight the day before and I know how to log in at the company to find out who would be on any particular flight. And I thought, well, I must know. the crew members on that flight because Boston is a very small base. I've flown with everybody. So I went back to the computer. I logged in to try to find out, bring up the manifest. And when the manifest came up, it was the exact same screen I had looked at the day before and where it had my name written in.

6:19But now they had erased all the names and all it said on the screen was sequence failed continuity, which at the airlines means the trip never made it to its destination. and you talk about an understatement. And when I saw that screen visually, it just hit me like a ton of bricks. I thought, I packed my bags to go on that trip and they never called. And a few minutes later, my wife came around the corner and she said, what are you doing? I said, honey, remember, I told you I was going to LA today. And she said, yeah, I said, that was the first airplane they got hijacked this morning.

6:54And here's, it's still, it's still a moment, right? There's a place inside where a feeling belongs. And I don't, it's just empty. Even after 25 years, I still don't know how to feel about that moment.

7:10Piers Morgan:What was the actual moment when you realized it was that flight? Was it the moment you've just recounted? Or was it soon after you first saw the plane crash? In other words, how quickly had you done the math about it being that flight? Yeah, it was actually that moment I just described. I had been on the base all day watching it, but I never connected the dots. So you went through the whole day. I find that an amazing thing that you went through a whole day without actually realizing that was the flight you should have been the first officer on. Right, correct. And again, all day long, they were trying to verify which flight it was, where it came from, and where it was going to.

7:48There was a lot of confusion in those first 24 hours. And I was on the Navy base. We're talking about moving airplanes. are we going to war? What are we doing? So my focus was in a different direction. Besides, on the 11th, my phone was ringing off the hook. Everybody I knew on the planet wanted to make sure I was alive and I was okay. So I was distracted by all of that on that day. But yeah, I never connected the dots. The most bizarre part of the September 11th for me was, remember, I talked about crew scheduling a minute ago, and they should have called me on the 10th?

8:19Piers Morgan:Yeah. They called me on the 11th. So on the 11th at three o 'clock in the afternoon, and the phone rings. And I answer it. And they said, it's American Airlines scheduling. I go, yeah. They go, we got a trip for you tomorrow. I said, what are you talking about? I said, I thought we were grounded. Well, we're grounded, but the FAA wants us to man the airplanes for tomorrow. And so we're giving you a call. Oh, I said, well, what's the trip? They said, it's flight 11 to Los Angeles. Wow. And I was dumbfounded. And, you know, a lot of things go through your mind at that moment. And so I said to her, I said, well, I'm not sure I'm okay with that.

8:53And I can remember what she said to me just as, as kind of forceful as possible. She said, well, you know, you have to take the trip. And I said, lady, I don't have to do anything. I'm not sure I'm okay with where we are right now. You know, those first 24, 48 hours, we had no confidence in the system at all. And I want to make sure we got good answers. And it ended up, they didn't fly for another four days anyway, but even so that, that, that first shocking, you know, you have to take the trip. No. No, at first I was like, no, I don't. I want to sort out what's going on with the air traffic system before I get back in an airplane.

9:29And I'm on there with any other passengers going anywhere.

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10:48Piers Morgan:That's coveron.com slash PEERS. It must have been an incredibly emotional moment for you and your wife when you said to her, that's the flight I was supposed to be on. Because in that moment, you both realize you've cheated death. I mean, you cheated death. You would have died had you been on that flight, right? I mean, 99.9 % certain the same thing would have happened. And you would have been in the seat that Tom McGuinness was in. Just what was it like for you, you and your wife, in the few minutes after you realized? Yeah, well, there was that moment where we just kind of held each other for a little while and no words were spoken.

11:30I don't think there is a word at that moment because you're conflicted. You know that at the same time that you know that your life was spared, Somebody else got the phone call or somebody showed up at their house and gave them the worst possible news you could ever possibly get. And that was repeated a lot of times with all the air crews and all the people that were in the buildings. What a horrible day. But my wife, they made a documentary out of my story for the 10th anniversary. It's called In My Seat. And In My Seat's been out for about 15 years. We just released one on the Captain Steve channel yesterday, the 25th anniversary.

12:05and my wife, she tells her side of the story in both of those documentaries. But one of the things she said in the new documentary is she said, I can't watch the original documentary. Just going there, every time I go to some public event and I show that film and I tell a story about living on borrowed time, she gets up and leaves the room. I watch her every single time. She can't, it's just too much for her because it's like Groundhog Day, right? You're living it over and over and over again. And I think at some point, You just got to say, that's enough. I can't do it anymore.

12:38Piers Morgan:Yeah, you know, there was a very poignant moment where Tom McGuinness's widow talked about, obviously, she had the converse to you guys. She had the worst possible news. And the irony being that he'd wanted to get home to her, to Cheryl, his wife. Let's listen to what she said about it. My phone was ringing off the hook. My children were calling from school to find out if dad was involved in this in any way. And then I remember going to the front of my house and looking out the window, and there was a black car at the end of the driveway. And it was the chief pilot from American Airlines. Not only had the airplane been hijacked, but it had been flown into the World Trade Center, and there were no survivors.

13:26Piers Morgan:And it was the most horrific day. I just broke down when I heard that and I just started screaming, no, God, no, God, please, God, don't let that be true. No, please don't take him. Just crying with everything I had inside of me that he wouldn't take my husband home. Incredibly poignant and desperately sad, of course, for her. You've met Cheryl. The first time that you met each other, what was that moment like for you? Well, I've spoken to Cheryl on the phone. I didn't meet her in person. And I have to admit, it was kind of an awkward conversation because back in the early days, maybe the first year or so after 9-11, I didn't know all the details about Tom's side of the story.

14:10I collected those over the years. And I wanted to verify that. So I got Cheryl's number and I called her and she didn't know my story. And it was still very raw for her. And for me to introduce myself and then say, hey, I was originally scheduled to take your husband's place and he bumped me off the trip. It's just, the only word I can use, it was awkward. She was very gracious. You can tell she's a lovely lady. She was very gracious as she was recounting that. But when you see the heart of a widow, it just breaks your heart because the anguish that she had to go through and continues to go through, even all these years later, is really obvious from her testimony there.

14:48And it was really true for me when I was talking to her on the phone. She filled in some of the details for me, which was very nice, but we kind of ended the conversation in sort of an awkward kind of way, I guess that's the only way to put it.

15:00Piers Morgan:Had you ever met Tom McGuinness? I met him once or twice. Now, generally speaking, as a first officer, I'm going to know more of the captains at the airline because I work with them. First officers don't really know each other. I met him a couple of times in operations, going one way or another. I wouldn't call him a friend. I'd call him an acquaintance. I know much more about his story and his life now that I recount it over and over again. But from everybody that's ever talked to me about Tom McGinnis, they loved him. He was a great guy. He was a top gun trained pilot, Naval Academy graduate, just the ace of the base in every way you can think of it.

15:35And what a tragedy for him and the others. John Oganowski was the captain on that Flight 11. All of those folks were just incredible people and people that I account as friends or close acquaintances. Steve, how hard was it to get back the control of a plane after this?

15:53Piers Morgan:I mean, talk me through the first time you did that. I think you said it was four days before they got you back in the air. But how hard was that moment for you? Yeah, so there was that first 24 hours where we weren't sure about what the system was doing and whether it was secure. By the time we started flying again, which was Friday after 9-11, American Airlines flew their first flight. At least I got called for a flight because they were taking all of the reserve pilots at that time and filling up all the available flights. I was itching to get back in the cockpit. I think all of us were. If you remember, you know, at least on this side of the Atlantic, all right, everybody wanted red meat.

16:28They wanted revenge. And we felt helpless. Americans help. They hate feeling helpless. And for four days, we felt helpless. And I was itching to get back on an airplane. So they called me up and said, hey, you're scheduled for flight 25 to Los Angeles. By the way, flight 25 was the former flight 11. They just, they retired that number forever. They renamed it 25. So the very first airplane I flew on the Friday after 9-11 was a Boston to Los Angeles flight that I would have flown on the 11th. There was about 17 people on the whole airplane. I went and shook everybody's hand and thanked them personally for having the courage to come out and get on an airplane.

17:08Piers Morgan:Incredible. What an incredible moment for you. How do you feel? It's the 25th anniversary of 9-11 this week. Today, in fact, Friday. How do you feel about the hijackers? You're a man of faith. Can you feel any forgiveness for them or not? Boy, that's a great question. That's a mixed bag of things. The Osama bin Laden was shot a few years ago. And I got a bunch of calls to comment on what my thoughts were about him being killed. And my first thought was good riddance. You know, I'm glad, I'm sorry it took so long. But at the same time, you mentioned I'm a man of faith. I believe in God through faith in Jesus Christ.

18:01And Jesus Christ went to the cross and died for Osama bin Laden as much as he did for me or for Tom or for you or for anybody else. That's hard to fathom. A lot of us can't accept that. But it puts in perspective for me how fleeting life is, how humbling life can be at times, and how important it is to just hug your family, take care of the things that you've got some control over, and not worry about the stuff that you don't have control over. But I think for me, the bigger deal is, can I forgive those terrorists? Yeah, I can if God can, then I ought to be able to do that as well. But am I conflicted about that?

18:45Sure I am. Yeah.

18:47Piers Morgan:Yeah, I bet you are. It's an incredibly difficult thing to do, but you're right. If you're a man of faith, a woman of faith, you've got to think about this very deeply, right? About what God would do, what he would do in the same situation. Let me just move on to some of the other questions that came out of what happened. Just some of the conspiracy theory stuff again, but relevant, I think, to your expertise, is that many people were like, how did these hijackers manage to pull this off, given the relatively limited amount of training they'd had? Were you surprised when you learned all about what had happened?

19:26Piers Morgan:Were you surprised that they were able to execute this so brutally effectively? Yeah, I was shocked. I mean, I think the sheer audacity of it is what caught everybody off guard. When I'm doing incidents and accidents analysis on my channel, I talk frequently about the Swiss cheese model. There's lots of holes in a piece of Swiss cheese. If all those holes line up, that's when you have an incident or an accident. So something like this on 9-11 was no accident, but all of the Swiss cheese holes had to line up. So the CIA wasn't talking to the FBI. The FBI wasn't talking to the CIA. Things were, you know, and this was going on and there were whistleblowers.

20:09There were people that are trying to raise the flag. Hey, take a look at these guys. They're down in Florida. All they want to do is fly at altitude. They don't want to take off and land. All of those messages were being communicated, but they weren't connecting to the right people to make the right decisions. Many times those things get taken care of because they do connect with the right people. And we never see that in the news. the stuff that the FBI and the CIA do behind the scenes. On 9-11, it was a classic failure of all of the institutions simultaneously all at the same time. Now, that's this side of the equation.

20:42The other side is you've got somebody, you've got a group of people with hate-filled hearts that are financing the cold-blooded murder of thousands of people at one time. And how do you stop that? You can't. You gotta catch it. You got to nip it in the bud. You got to see it developing. But at the same time, evil has been around since the beginning of the planet. And it's going to be around for some time longer. Just the sad part is 3 ,000 people-ish went to work that day. And the hardest part for me about 9-11 was watching the Twin Towers. And you could see on the screen people jumping from the buildings.

21:25Remember that, Piers? I do remember. I remember watching it.

21:27Piers Morgan:I remember watching it and we suddenly realised what we were seeing. And I was in a newsroom of a newspaper and we were transfixed and completely horrified. And then we realised the, I think journalists realised pretty quickly, the enormity of what we were dealing with. Because for people to do that, jumping to their certain death, it made you realise immediately just how horrific things must be inside these towers. right if so many people were jumping out to their certain death how awful was it inside and i think that was the moment of realization i mean just just beyond wasn't it yeah nobody should have to go to work to provide for their family then two minutes later have to make a decision about jumping out of the a skyscraper to their death or burning to death that that the horror of that should never escape us.