"DANCING On Charlie's Grave!" Dennis Quaid on Kirk & Immigration | Dave Smith vs Officer Tatum

24:09WE HAVE TO START TELLING THE TRUTH. I REALLY KIND OF DON'T KNOW WHAT THE DEMOCRATS ARE DOING EXCEPT FOR DOUBLING DOWN ON THE SAME STUFF, WHICH IS DURING THE THEY DON'T REALLY HAVE AN ISSUE. IT'S ALL ABOUT TRUMP AND TRUMP AND TRUMP. AND, YOU KNOW, I'M AN INDEPENDENT. I WOULD VOTE FOR A DEMOCRAT ONE OF THESE DAYS. THEY ACTUALLY HAVE TO HAVE A STAND ON A DIRECTION FOR THIS COUNTRY, AN ALTERNATIVE THAT'S NOT JUST HATE TRUMP.

24:44Piers Morgan:YEAH, I COMPLETELY AGREE. It's pretty much all they have, and that's why they're polling so badly. I've got to end, Dennis, just asking about your new movie, Sovereign. It feels appropriate, this, because it's based on a true story of a father and son who identifies sovereign citizens, a group of anti-government extremists who get into a standoff with police that then sets off a manhunt. The sovereign citizens believe the government's illegitimate. They can decide which laws to opt out of. what relevance do you think this movie has right now because clearly there are lots of potential relevances but what do you see as being the most relevant part of this to where we are

25:28well this you know sovereign people feel like they are not subject to the laws of the of the United States it's a contract of which they you know were not part of and it's it's a very extreme EXTREME FRINGES. IT'S NOT EVEN LEFT OR RIGHT, REALLY. BUT IT'S VERY, THE FRINGES ARE TRYING TO TAKE OVER IN THIS COUNTRY. AND IT WOULD, IT'S ABOUT IDEAS AND HOW, YOU KNOW, IDEAS COULD DRIVE PEOPLE TO EXTREMES THAT TO ME SEEM RIDICULOUS, OF COURSE. THIS IS A TRUE STORY OF THIS FATHER AND SON. AND THE MOVIE IN THE END IS ABOUT FATHER AND SON. I PLAYED A POLICE CHIEF IN A SMALL TOWN WHO MY SON IS BECOMING A POLICEMAN.

26:24IN FACT, IT WAS THIS KID'S VERY THEIR SON WAS A VERY FIRST DAY ON THE JOB AND HE STOPPED THIS SOVEREIGN GUY WHO HAD HIS SON IN THE CAR. AND IT'S ABOUT HEARTS AND MINDS AND FIGHTING FOR THE SOUL OF AMERICA WITH YOUR SON. AND IT WAS SUCH A TRAGEDY THAT HAPPENED. But the human impact of how ideas can go bad.

27:01Piers Morgan:You've just made me think of a last question, but I've been watching the whole immigration debate in America. I get the sense that most Americans applaud Trump for what he's achieved on the southern border. I think it's been extraordinary how quickly he's resolved that crisis. I think most Americans believe if you're undocumented in America, and you commit a crime, you should be deported. But there is a real battle. You talk about the soul of America over people who may be undocumented but have been in America for a number of years, maybe built a family, paying taxes, contributing to society. And this sort of imagery of ICE agents running into Home Depot and grabbing people like that.

27:39Piers Morgan:Where do you sit with that? Do you feel it's gone too far? Do you feel comfortable with that kind of thing? I've had experience myself. MY HOUSEKEEPER WHO WAS IN THIS COUNTRY FOR DECADES UNDOCUMENTED REALLY BECAUSE SHE HAD HER SISTER'S DRIVER'S LICENSE IN ORDER TO GET AROUND. I FOUND THIS OUT, THIS WAS BACK IN 2016 AND SHE WAS REALLY AFRAID OF TRUMP GETTING ELECTED BECAUSE SHE WOULD BE THROWN OUT OF THE COUNTRY, SHE THOUGHT. SHE LIVED IN FEAR. AND I SAID, NO, WHAT WE HAVE TO DO, JOSIE, IS WE HAVE TO DO THINGS RIGHT. SO I SPONSORED HER. WE WENT THROUGH THE PROCESS AND WE GOT HER DOCUMENTED. WE GOT HER A GREEN CARD, IN FACT, TO BE HERE.

28:34AND SHE'S GOING FOR HER CITIZENSHIP RIGHT NOW. VOTE FOR TRUMP. AND, YOU KNOW, AFTER A YEAR OR TWO YEARS LATER, OR FOUR YEARS LATER, SHE WANTED TO GET HER CITIZENSHIP BECAUSE SHE WANTED

28:51Piers Morgan:TO VOTE FOR TRUMP IN THE END. BUT MOST OF THE LATINO COMMUNITY THAT I KNOW, THEY'RE THEY ARE GREAT, HARD-WORKING PEOPLE. FAMILY VALUES.

29:08THEY AGREE THAT THESE PEOPLE THAT ARE COMING IN UNDOCUMENTED, JUMPING THE LINE, GETTING THEIR JOBS. THEY ALSO, THEY LIVE IN FEAR OF THE CARTEL WHICH HAS FINGERS EVEN INTO THEIR OWN COMMUNITIES. AND YOU HAVE THE, WHICH TRUMP HAS COME OUT AND SAID THAT ALL THE, OUR SEASONAL WORKERS, FARMWORKERS, WE HAVE TO COME UP WITH A SOLUTION TO THAT, THAT THEY CAN STAY. BUT WE'RE GOING OUT THERE, MOSTLY WE'RE GETTING THE, WE'RE GETTING THE VIOLENT. WE'RE GETTING PEOPLE WHO ARE, CONTINUE TO BREAK THE LAW AFTER BREAKING THE LAW OF COMING INTO THIS COUNTRY. AND WE, IT'S GOING TO BE, WE'RE GOING TO BE TAKEN OVER FROM WITHIN IF WE DON'T.

30:05OBAMA DEPORTED MORE PEOPLE THAN TRUMP HAS. HE DID. HE DID. IN FACT, THERE WAS NO OUTCRY ABOUT THAT. NO. AT THE TIME THAT IT WAS HAPPENING.

30:17AND IT'S REALLY ABOUT JUST BEING I GUARANTEE YOU IF BIDEN HAD BEEN FOR THE SAME THING, THERE WOULDN'T HAVE BEEN A WORD SAID.

30:31Piers Morgan:IT'S ALWAYS GREAT TO HAVE YOU ON OUR SENSE. YOU ALWAYS DO IT WITH AN UNDERPINNING OF HUMANITY WHICH IS SO LOST IN MANY PEOPLE THESE DAYS. IT'S SUCH A SHAME. IT'S GREAT TO TALK TO YOU. SOVEREIGN, STARRING DENNIS QUAKE And Nick Offerman is available now on demand in the UK. Dennis, thank you very much. Thank you. Hey, it's Kelly Rowland. You may not know this, but I have eczema. So I get how it can steal your time. But why let eczema take over when you can talk to your doctor about EBCLIS? EBCLIS, Lubrikizumab LBKZ, a 250 milligram per two milliliter injection, is a prescription medicine used to treat adults and children 12 years of age and older who weigh at least 88 pounds or 40 kilograms with moderate to severe eczema.

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31:55Piers Morgan:Now it's a true testament to Charlie Cook's influence and the power of the movement he led, but his death has sparked intense debate about the evolution of his opinions. How did he reconcile his profound faith with the increasingly intolerable scenes in Gaza, for example? Had he begun to change his mind about Netanyahu's Israel? Many people debating this believe it matters because Charlie Kirk's movement mattered and his legacy matters too. Turning Point has transformed the way many young people think about politics and it's only going to get bigger. Two of our regular uncensored contributors have locked horns on this issue and others.

32:26Piers Morgan:Like Kirk himself, they both relish a debate. I'm pleased to say that Dave Smith hosted part of the problem and Brandon Tatum, better known as the Officer Tatum, both join me now. Well, welcome to both of you. No strangers to the show Uncensored, or indeed being Uncensored, so it's good to have you both. Dave Smith, first of all, there is a sort of growing sense that Charlie Kirk was wrestling with the war in Gaza. He'd gone from a position of being a bit like I did, I think, of being very pro-Israel's right to defend itself, to getting increasingly concerned about the scale of what has been happening in the last few months in Gaza.

33:07Piers Morgan:What is your sense about that? How significant is it? Well, I mean, I think it's significant. I think it's really a fascinating story that maybe it would have been appropriate to wait a few more weeks before we really started getting into, but everyone dove into it, including the Prime Minister of Israel, right away. And I'll tell you what I know for sure, what I think most people know, is that, look, Charlie Kirk was in a different position than, say, just a commentator like Ben Shapiro or like me or you, Pierce. Or, you know, he was organizing a youth movement to, you know, support Republican candidates.

33:49And the youth are really abandoning support for Israel. And so he had a very difficult job as like the movement guy who's trying to keep a big tent going. And so he was attempting to do that. And you could see this at his last big event where I debated there, where he had speakers like Tucker Carlson and Megyn Kelly, who said some things, and I'm sure myself too, who said some things that really upset some of his backers and some of the more hardcore Zionists out there. And he was quite open in his interview with Megyn Kelly about talking about the dynamic that you've experienced. I had a post on Twitter that went viral about you, which I believe you reposted.

34:30I did. But I was just using you. You were the latest example in this trend, which a lot of people have experienced, where people who are generally pro-Israel, in many cases have been pro-Israel their entire lives, have an issue with something that Israel does. They go a little bit too far for them, and they start criticizing them for that. And they're immediately met with accusations of being an anti-Semite and essentially the new Adolf Hitler. And I do think that that's very jarring and often has the effect of just pushing people further away from Israel. Now, I don't think that was happening in Charlie Kirk's case, but I do think he was certainly grappling with how do you keep this movement together when the young people who you're trying to galvanize and organize are abandoning Israel at an incredibly rapid rate.

35:17Piers Morgan:Officer Tatum, what's your response to that? Yeah, but my response is very similar. You know, I knew Charlie very well, and I know a lot of people that know Charlie. And I think that Charlie was wrestling with this conflict. I don't think that in any way he was changing his perspective on Israel because Charlie's love for Israel goes beyond who's running Israel, goes beyond Benjamin Netanyahu. It goes deeper. It goes to a spiritual level. And Charlie was unwavering on that. But I do think and I know this for a fact that he was getting a lot of pressure because the youth was abandoning Israel to a certain degree.

35:51And it bothered him because he wanted Israel to do better with their PR to try to capture these young minds so they don't fall or be against Israel because Charlie had a deep love and respect for Israel. So he was feeling the pressure and a lot of people can't handle that pressure. And I think that Charlie was in a unique position. Unlike me. I don't care what people say to me. I don't really care. But when it comes to Charlie, he does care about what the young people are saying because that is the establishment of all that he worked for for so many years. So I don't blame him for it, but I do know that it was the pressure that he was feeling.

36:27Megyn Kelly was feeling the pressure. And some people just, when that pressure's on, they try to move to a central point so they don't have to deal with it.

36:36Piers Morgan:Dave Smith, Tucker Carlson made a pretty powerful speech, actually. I thought in many ways. Certainly captivated the audience yesterday at the memorial for Charlie Kirk, but included what he described as his favourite story. Take a listen. Ultimately, he was a Christian evangelist. And it actually reminds me of my favourite story ever. So it was about 2 ,000 years ago in Jerusalem, and Jesus shows up and he starts talking about the people in power, and he starts doing the worst thing that you can do, which is telling the truth about people, and they hate it, and they just go bonkers. They hate it, and they become obsessed with making him stop.

37:19This guy's got to stop talking. We've got to shut this guy up. And I can just sort of picture the scene in a lamp-lit room with a bunch of guys sitting around eating hummus, thinking about what do we do about this guy telling the truth about us. We must make him stop talking. And there's always one guy with the bright idea, and I can just hear him say, I've got an idea. Why don't we just kill him? that'll shut him up that'll fix the problem hey smith what did you make of that um i i don't know i mean i see people freaking out about this on on social media today but i think the what i took from the message was that yeah he's telling the foundational story of christianity and making the point that obviously charlie kirk was you know when you're assassinating someone for the crime of trying to have open dialogue and discussion, the idea is you're trying to silence that guy.

38:16You're against this discussion taking place. And I think the point Tucker was making was that, you know, if killing someone silenced their ideas, then the last several thousand years of Western civilization would look quite differently. And that the idea being that Charlie Kirk's problem, his ideas are now going to have, which is, I think, just factually true, a larger platform and resonate with more people than they even could have in his life.

38:43Piers Morgan:As indeed did Jesus Christ's views after his crucifixion. Officer Tatum, I mean, a lot of people are trying to spin this as Tucker Carlson being anti-Semitic, very predictable, because that's the stick used to be anyone that does anything that may possibly be construed that way. What did you make of that part of his speech? Well, I want to address the anti-Semitic thing. I think that people, and this is my advice to people who are Zionists or people who are Jews, you got to stop with the pushing the anti-Semitic thing every time somebody says something you don't like. You have to stop. I was just talking to a friend yesterday.

39:23They say he just got bombarded with people calling him an anti-Semite because he shared a post of somebody who, you know, may have had a difference of opinion. So that needs to stop or you're going to lose all credibility and respect from good people that love you. Now, Tucker Carlson, when I first watched it, I'm going to be honest, I didn't think none of it. You know, I don't really like Tucker very much, but, and I do think that he has a lot of negative things to say unjustifiably about Israel, but he's entitled to his own opinion. But I can see why some people are thinking that he may have been subliminally saying things that were connecting Israel to this whole thing.

39:58Now, I don't go down the bandwagon because I can't unequivocally prove that, but I did find it interesting that he had made mention as if Charlie was really an attack or attacking the government, as if Charlie's death was directly associated with government officials, when in fact it was really these narcissistic lunatics that are overmedicated, that hate Charlie because he's countering the arguments that we see that's pervasive on campus. The government is not taking in extreme positions as the kids on campus are taking. They're brainwashed. I've been on campus. I've been to probably 40 universities.

40:33The kids on campus don't live in reality. They live in an alternate reality. They don't live like we do. We pay taxes. We have to go to work. We have to be nuanced about arguments and things that we get involved in. They are completely radicalized. So I think that people could take it a certain way. But let me tell you this. It seems as if Charlie was very good friends with Tucker Carlson. And it seems to me that Tucker Carlson can say whatever he want to say, and that may be the way he liked to grieve, but that's the way that he wanted to present himself at a ceremony. And I think people should leave it alone unless you have unequivocal evidence that he was somehow trying to do that.

41:08Because you cheapen the love and respect and dedication that all of the people who spoke at the ceremony had for Charlie Kirk's life. People got to stop trying to go too deep on both sides. Let the man be loved and appreciated by everybody who was on stage and quit trying to conjure up controversial conspiracies. could i uh yeah could i just just add to that because i do think there's something kind of interesting like um because like you know having a black conservative and a jewish guy who's like a critic of israel there's always like some parallels that i see between those two positions and i think maybe we could like across the board on all of these things people got to just stop making accusations of bigotry based off of what you're guessing the other person was dog whistling.

41:58Like you're saying that there was a, you know, that there was a secret message hidden somewhere in what the other person said. This, listen, if they say what you will about Tucker Carlson, I know Brandon said, he's not a big fan. I love the guy of all the things you could criticism, criticize him for. He'll tell you how he feels. I promise you. He'll tell you how he feels. If he has a controversial view, he'll say it. He's not hiding some view embedded in his story here. And people got to get over this, man. There's just like, if we couldn't take one lesson away from the last 15 years, that making these accusations of bigotry to shut down conversations and making these accusations where there's no tangible evidence that they exist, they do not solve the problem of real bigotry.

42:41They make the problem much worse. And everybody should back off of that. Now, I do want to ask, though, I got to say, because as you mentioned there, you said that, you know, your friend was being called anti-Semitic for sharing the clip of what someone else thought. And listen, man, we don't know each other, but literally the only interaction we've ever had is you called me, I think, a devil and one of the worst people in America the other day, also for sharing the clip of somebody else. No, no, no. I'm glad you brought it up because there's a reason why I said that. It's not that I somehow mentioned something about you just in passing.

43:17You shared a post of one of the most disingenuous, evil individuals that I've ever seen online. Nick Fuentes shamed Charlie. Ever since 2017, he would come out, harass, accost Charlie at events. He would harass his wife. Him and the groupers would harass my wife because she's white. And this guy said, Charlie is a fake Christian and he's disgusting and he should never be able to be on campus without being shouted down. And then he comes out and makes a fake apology. And I felt like you supported that. And then also, my art with you, I had never met you before. I disagree with you on Israel, but I respect that you come with your opinions.

43:59But when you were on stage at SAS and you chastised those young people and said they can never claim to be pro-life ever again because they support a genocide, I thought that was the most disgusting thing that any adult man could say to young kids who was just seeking the truth and openly listening to a debate between you and another individual. So the only reason I said that is based on those principles alone. I don't know you personally, but I thought that that was disgusting. Anybody who support that Nick Fuentes guy who shamed my friend who's now dead, it bothers me to no end. Dave? Okay, well, look, I mean, again, I said I give him all the credit in the world for this.

44:40And what was this? This was after Charlie Kirk was killed, him saying that he was a good man, that he's praying for his soul, and urging his supporters not to be violent in response to this. And I got to say, you know, I thought, as I think many of us did immediately after Charlie was killed and immediately after your first reaction of feeling so horrible on a personal level for his family, you realize this is a very dangerous situation. And I got to say, for for Nick Fuentes, you know, being who he is, to have him telling his audience, hey, if you respond at all with violence to this, I completely disown you.

45:17We need to be Christians about this. We need to be peaceful. We should be praying for him and his family. I give him credit for that. Whatever other beef you got with him, that's between you two. I didn't say I agree with the guy on everything he's ever said. Well, hold on. Let me just respond. I didn't endorse everything the guy's ever said. I said I give him all the credit in the world for this and then shared the clip of this. Pretty clear what I was saying. And by the way, I didn't chastise the kids at Charlie Kirk's event. I warned them. I warned them that if you're supporting the destruction of a captive stateless people in Gaza right now, that you will never be able to claim to be pro-life again without being rightfully viewed as the biggest hypocrite in the universe.

45:59That's an opinion that I will gladly defend. And I noticed in there, you're not actually taking on that argument. You're just telling me how disgusting I am for having it. So listen, man, I think that if there's one thing Charlie would have wanted, it probably would have been for us to have this conversation without devolving into insults. You can say it's disgusting if you want to. I think there's a pretty strong argument for my point there. I think it's kind of undeniable. There's a real conflict between being pro-life and then also supporting a policy, the price tag of which is tens of thousands of slaughtered babies, children.

46:35Piers Morgan:Well, on that point, Officer Tate, I will let you respond, but let me just put that directly to you, because one of the reasons I've become increasingly critical of Netanyahu's government, and you interviewed Netanyahu a couple of weeks ago on your YouTube show, and we'll play a clip from that in a moment, but one of my... And he won't do my show, just for the record, since the war started. Because I think one of the reasons he won't do me is because I would say to him, you're not achieving any of your war aims. You know, you're not getting the hostages released. In fact, if anything, I'd say you're imperiling their lives more every day as this goes on.

47:08Piers Morgan:You're not defeating Hamas, that much is clear. You're causing endless more devastation. Your cabinet right-wing members like Smodrich, Ben-Gavir and others, they're talking openly about ethnically cleansing all the Palestinians. Are you not concerned, Officer Tatum, with a fair-minded head about this, that actually it is no longer about a retaliatory, self-defensive strike for what happens on October 7th, but part of a much bigger plan, which many on the hard right in Israel have harbored for a long time to displace Palestinians from their home in Gaza and from large swathes of the West Bank?

47:53Piers Morgan:Does that not concern you? Okay, great question. Let me address a few things. I think that Nick Fuentes is disingenuous, and I felt like Dave Smith is intelligent enough, and I'm not challenging your intelligence, but I believe that you can see through the bull crap on so many other people, And I felt like you should have seen the bull crap through Nick Fuentes because he's just saying that to save face now that Charlie is dead. And all the way up to his death, he shamed him. When it comes to the pro-life situation, there's a very big difference between articulating whether a person believes that life starts at conception, not perception, versus a person disagreeing with urban warfare and the way that Israel is carrying out their attacks in Gaza.

48:30That's two different things that should not be conflated. When it comes to my concerns for Benjamin Netanyahu and his tactics in Israel, I mean, or his tactics against Gaza, There's a few things here. I think that Benjamin Netanyahu, and because the interview, the nature of the interview wasn't really a debate, it was more so me asking them questions that my audience wanted me to ask him, and him putting the answers out there, and people can debate that. But I think a lot of people that I know in Israel, including myself and others that are staunch Zionists, think that he is prolonging the war too long and is causing too much damage and irreversible reputational damage.

49:06He should have ended it sooner and he should have went harder. In America, if we had faced such brutality, rape, people getting their heads cut off, I saw videos of people getting their heads cut off. We would have been swift within 48 hours. We would have caused the most damage that you've ever seen to a country in world history. And Netanyahu, for whatever reason, is capitulating, in my personal opinion, to his own personal image. and that he don't want to look bad. He don't want to be shamed. He don't want people to say that he's committing a genocide. So he's playing in the middle for too long.

49:43Two years of this war is too much. He should have eliminated Hamas immediately. And he should not worry about the naysayers. He's darned if he do, he's darned if he don't. He is not committing a genocide in Gaza. I think that's disingenuous at best because no one committing a genocide would be giving food or aid to a people that they're trying to kill, they would not be sending leaflets and advising people of buildings that they're going to tear down. The population has grown in Gaza from 1948 all the way up until today. 500 ,000 they started with, there are 2 million at this point. When did the genocide start?

50:21There is no genocide. People can argue the tactics that Netanyahu is displaying in Gaza, but you cannot be superfluous and add these arguments that seems to, in my opinion, be anti-Semitic in many ways. It's not, these people are terrorists and not the Gazan people, the regular everyday individual, the terrorist group that came into a country and attempted to commit a genocide against Israel. They would have committed a genocide against Israel to a large proportion if it wasn't for the IDF and if it wasn't for the Iron Dome. Let's not forget, they shot 4 ,000 missiles into Israel. They tried to kill everybody.

51:00The IDF is going in strategically. I wish that people had not died. I wish that they could end the war so there's no suffering. I wish that Hamas wasn't stealing food. The U.N. confirmed that 96 percent of all the aid is being looted. I wish that Hamas wasn't doing those things. I wish that Hamas would take the approach of Israel, which means when the rockets go flying into Israel, the people go into bomb shelters. When rockets go flying into Gaza, the terrorists go into bomb shelters and they make their people stay above ground to be the blunt force of what they received in a war that they started for no reason.

51:34Hamas knew they could never beat the IDF in Israel. Why did they start the war? Why did they initiate conflict? Why did they rape people and do things like that and videotape it? Why do they still have hostages and they never released it?

51:46Piers Morgan:You know the unpalatable answer, Officer Tatum? I'll come to Dave Smith as well. But the unpalatable answer to that, maybe they did it precisely to goad Israel into a massive overreaction, which would then make Israel and its government in particular hugely unpopular around the world to the extent that the United Nations is convening today with the UK, declaring a state of Palestine. They're going to be followed by other countries. Only really America and Israel is opposing this. But it may well be that Hamas, being a bunch of evil terrorists, thought if we do this, Israel will massively overreact.

52:25Piers Morgan:They don't care about their own people dying. That's completely obvious. And it could well play into our longer-term game plan. Who knows? But it could be that. In which case, they've fallen for a hideous sucker punch. Dave Smith, your response to... A lot to unpack there, but your response. And also taking in this news today about countries like the UK, you know, declaring there is a state of Palestine. Sure. Well, I mean, I don't know. I think Brent kind of almost hit every single talking point there. So I don't know. I mean, I've been knocking all these down for years on your show here. The bottom line is just that it is just look to sit here and say that even as you say, obviously, Pierce, it's not like Hamas had to be rocket scientists to figure this out.

53:10This is what terrorism is. It's asymmetrical warfare. The action is in the reaction. Osama bin Laden didn't think he could take down the United States of America by taking out our towers. He thought he could lure us into a war in Afghanistan and that that might bankrupt us. us. It was the plan that our CIA coached him through in the late 70s and early 80s with luring the Soviets into Afghanistan. And so the idea that, and look, we did it. We blew$8 trillion in the Middle East since then. And so that's the idea here. And Israel's completely fallen into the trap. But of course, the reason why people are, that Israel has done irreversible reputational damage, the reason why people are abandoning supporting this is really just twofold.

53:54Number one, it's clearly not in America's interest. And number two, this is just indefensible. Even if you say that, hey, look, Hamas goes down into the bomb shelters and leaves the civilians up there to be bombed. OK, but then ain't there a moral question about whether it's the right thing to do to just drop those bombs on the civilians when you know the terrorists are down in the towers? Hold on, You had a chance to go through all this stuff. So I'm going to. Hold on, hold on, hold on. You just went off on every talking point. Just explain what they should do and I'll shut up. No, just explain that too.

54:25I'm just going to finish. Yeah, I'm going to finish what I did. Well, what they should do is embrace a two-state solution ultimately. They should stop occupying a people as they've been doing for 16 years. They've done it five times and the Arabs rejected it. No, they haven't. Okay, now I get it. Five times and the Arabs rejected it. Yeah, I get it. I know you're going to hit every Hasbro talking point. That's not true. I'm hitting facts. There's been lots of books. No, it's not. It's a talking point. It is not true. The Palestinians have never once been offered a full-fledged state. There is not one of those five times that they were ever offered a full state.

54:55By the way, that's not even your own Hasbro talking point. You're supposed to say 97 % of what they wanted, which also is a lie. The point is that no matter what you're going to say here, Israel propped up Hamas for years to keep them in power so that Netanyahu could thwart the creation of a Palestinian state. To then use them as a justification for mass slaughtering a captive people that you have kept stateless for 60 years is morally indefensible. And I'm sorry, I didn't realize I had to like actually paint the full thing out. When I was talking about the pro-life analogy, yes, being pro-life is about believing that life begins at conception.

55:39But baked in there is also the assumption that you think it's wrong to murder kids. Like the point is that, yes, if you're pro-life, then you also - Nobody thinks it's right to murder kids. Yes, but you're supporting a policy that is doing just that. There's no policy to murder kids. It's urban warfare. Unfortunately, people die. There's no policy. So call it a different name. So call it a different name. You should murder kids in this. Yes, I'm sorry. Yes, that is, look, when you drop, when you make a decision to drop a bomb on a building where you know there are children inside of it, yes, morally speaking, you murdered those children.

56:16You've given leaflets. You've given phone calls. You've told them to evacuate. Okay, so the leaflets make it not murder. Okay, okay. So how about when they don't? There's no intent. How about this last attack? There's no intent to murder them. Hold on. Hold on. Let me ask you a question, follow up. How about when they don't? What about when they don't drop leaflets? What about when they don't have evacuation orders? They just did this in Gaza City yesterday. How about that? Is that now murder? I just took away your excuses. No, no, no. I could give you an example. They don't have to drop leaflets and give phone calls if they're operating out of military.

56:43So then why are you bringing that up? I'm saying when you're shooting weapons and Hamas is firing weapons and using it as a military base, they don't have to give leaflets to give evacuation. situation is that if it's a civilian uh building or something where they can eliminate having casualties they will do that to the best of their ability but there's some instances where they can't give notification because the mosque is operating out of these hospitals operating out of uh mosques and they have to do what they have to do in this warfare they have to no they don't they actually don't have to what should they do then what should they do by the way i love what should they do i I love the I love Pierce.

57:20I think it was Aaron Matei who coined this phrase. I could be wrong about that. But someone said the entire Israeli case rests on you saying that nothing justifies October 7th. But October 7th justifies anything like nothing. You're sitting here. Yes. What should they do, Dave? Look, you can pick one side or the other. One second. You can pick one side. I'll answer that question, but just interrupting my point with that question over and over again is just so I can't make my case. There is no – you can go tit for tat here. There's been terrorism on both sides. Israel has been occupying Gaza and the West Bank slash and or controlling Gaza and the West Bank since 1967.

58:02There's going to be resistance to that. And then for you to say that resistance now justifies us slaughtering people by the tens of thousands, destroying all of Gaza is just there's no logic in it. There's no morality in it. What should Israel have done? Number one, Benjamin Netanyahu should have resigned on October 8th after his plan to prop up Hamas being this genius right winger that I'm going to keep Hamas in power because, in his words, he could control the height of the flame. and this will balance things and thwart a Palestinian state. When that blew up in his face, he should have resigned in disgrace that day.

58:37They should have had a real investigation about what actually happened on October 7th. Our late friend had some questions about that, didn't he? Yeah, he did. They should have really looked into that, which we've never gotten to the bottom of. Then they should have done surgical strikes, targeted assassinations, as Israel has always done throughout their entire history with the terrorism problem. They have never, until Netanyahu, treated it as a problem for the regular old army, and it should have culminated in a real peace process. They should have said, we are going to take out the people responsible for this by targeted strikes, and at the end of that, we're ending the occupation.

59:10We're giving all of East Jerusalem, all of the West Bank, and all of Gaza to the Arabs. It's their decision what they want to do in the future, but if we are attacked, we will treat them as a foreign nation and go to war with them. That's what the response to October 7th should have been.

59:23Piers Morgan:I think the biggest mistake Netanyahu has made, of many, actually, in terms of tactics and strategy, was the attack in Doha, which failed. It didn't kill any of the Hamas commanders. but the amount of fury that that has created amongst the Arab countries, from Saudi Arabia, the UAE and others, but also apparently, according to Haaretz, amongst Mossad, who are absolutely furious about that attack on one of America's main allies in the Middle East, someone with 10 ,000 American troops in a base there, to just attack with impunity Qatar and to attack people who were at that moment deliberating over a potential peace plan and then to fail anyway.

1:00:11Piers Morgan:So you cause all the mayhem without achieving the goal. It seemed to me symptomatic of where Netanyahu's got to. He's not achieving any of the goals here. He's just making things worse and worse. I think that one could argue that. I'm not disagreeing. I think that there needs to be an investigation into it and figure out what should we do and what should we not do. America knew that he was going to do the attack. There's no way in the world Israeli jets can fly through airspace without America knowing about it and do that attack. So America is what gave the green light pretty much. And then we go, I want to go back to some of the things that Dave Smith said.

1:00:46You know, it sounds cute to act as if they're just indiscriminately bombing people. They're doing strategic strikes. They have to get approval to do strikes. We know that they're doing it. People don't like it. It's ugly. I get it. I hate that it's happening. I would have ended the war 48 hours and it would have been a mass casualty situation. However, we would have been done quicker and it would have been two years. The two-state solution idea. Why are we lying to ourselves? They don't want a two-state solution. They want Israel to be absolved. They do not want a Jewish state. They made it clear, I don't know for how many years.

1:01:15Netanyahu, they removed Jews from Gaza and gave it to them. And what did they do in return? They elected a terrorist organization that extracted funding and resources from them to build tunnels to create terrorism against Israel. They cannot live in peace with these people. They continue to fight against Israel in a Jewish state. And I don't understand why we're acting as if that's not so. They've given them their own sovereignty to a certain degree. Imagine if they had their own state.

1:01:44Piers Morgan:Do you think, Officer Tatum, that Palestinians should have the same rights, human rights, as Israelis? Let me put it in perspective. It's a yes or no. I will answer it. You either believe that or you don't. The reason I'm asking you, it's so central. Let me start with your, let me answer your question first. It's so central. Let me answer your question first. Yes. Okay, good. The answer is yes. Let me articulate that there was a war fall and Israel won the war. So they don't have to do anything for anybody. Wait, what war are you talking about? 1948. Was that not a war that was fought? They got attacked on all sides.

1:02:26There's been many wars since then. After they rejected the two-state solution. After they rejected the two-state solution. a war was fought they won every war that has been fought israel has won they've been victorious they don't owe palestinians anything but they are peaceful people which war gave them no war they don't owe them they don't owe palestinians anything right yeah yeah no no actually i mean they only owe them what we all owe each other i i suppose but what i mean you can make that you can make that argument but that's not it's not a real argument yeah it is What war did Israel win that gave them the right to occupy the Palestinians in perpetuity for all of history?

1:03:05Let's bring into it. But first of all, I don't know why you think it's the occupation. Jews have lived in Israel and since the beginning of time, never ceasing to exist in Israel. They were the majority became a minority. They never cease to exist in Israel. Those two things are not related at all. Let me finish. Let me finish. What I'm saying is that you're acting as if Jews don't have a— occupation. Jews, what I'm saying is that Jews have entitlement to the land. Palestinians don't have exclusive entitlement. So when a war is fought, the Jews can make the decision what they do with Palestinians or not.

1:03:36Just like in America, we can say what we want to do with the Native Americans or not. Let me finish my point and I'll answer your question. Just real quick, it'll be a couple seconds. But because we have humanity and dignity, we allow for Native Americans in America to have reservations and we support them and all of the above. Because Israel and Jews have dignity, they allowed them to have swaths of the West Bank and they allowed them to have Gaza, where they elected their own government system. Now, do Israel have control? I see why. Can't you see? If they had absolutely no control, they had no idea what was coming in through the southern border, through the sea, how much more of a terrorist attack would we see in Israel?

1:04:16It would be even more massive. So I understand that. But when they were offered a two-state solution, why did they reject it? All right, Dave. Again, I don't know what period of time you're talking about, what war you're talking about. But so here's a major difference. You might notice this, Pierce, between Native Americans, say, in the United States of America, you know, they have citizenship and voting rights. And so at a certain point, if you're going to say, we okay yes that's right now how about the palestinians living under israeli control in the west bank they do not have citizenship or voting rights and so they don't have citizenship right they do have elections don't listen brennan think about think about what you're advocating for that's not that you're you're not addressing the point here they don't have citizenship in that you just said that, hey, you understand why Israel is going to control these areas because in your estimation, there'd be more violence if they didn't control these areas.

1:05:18Now, I disagree with that estimation, but whatever. Okay. But then you're saying Israel has control and these people don't have citizenship or voting rights in Israel. If Israel is controlling Gaza and the West Bank and they've got millions of people there who don't have citizenship or voting rights don't have any say in that government what would you call that by the way we could maybe i mean i could make the argument that there'd be less crime if we just occupied high crime black neighborhoods in america stripped all the people of their voting rights of their civil rights of their natural rights and we just had a military occupation but i think we would all accept you're not allowed to do that to people because we're like if you're living in the post enlightenment your argument is not a real argument they don't keep saying that but you can't take it on listen okay let's give it if they actually control gaza no no if they actually control gaza okay let me answer if they actually control gaza the way you're saying it they would have never elected hamas and they would have never built tunnels and they would never stole funding and manipulate the people and they would never treat women the way they do and they would never throw people off buildings if israel if israel controlled them they don't control them.

1:06:28They left them to their own devices. And in the West Bank, the PLO has manipulated the people. That's why they have a separate election in Gaza, because the PLO had manipulated the people in the West Bank, and they didn't want that governance. So they are governing themselves. However, you will never see, I've been to Israel, you will never see Jews in Palestine, or what you call the West Bank. You will never see them in Gaza. But there are hundreds of thousands of arabs and palestinians that worked in israel i was there i saw it i'm even surprised nobody's denying that no yeah everybody knows israel what i'm saying is that israel is not israel is not treating palestinians the way that people are acting like they are okay i want to they gave them freedom okay i've got to wrap things yeah i've got to wrap things but i wanted to ask dave one question

1:07:20Piers Morgan:before we wrap it. It's just this. This decision by the UK and other countries to declare a state of Palestine has been, you know, ridiculed by Israelis as simply playing into Hamas's hands, giving them a reward for October the 7th. Is it meaningful to you at all? Well, I mean, yeah, I think it's somewhat me. I mean, look, it's obviously a gesture more than anything else. But I do think it's significant that there's at least the feeling that there's a need to make the gesture, I think, is a result of public opinion shifting so greatly on this. But, you know, I got to say to this, look, first of all, I'll just say a couple of things.

1:07:59Number one, right after 9-11, it was Colin Powell, the wisest member of George W. Bush's government, which is not saying much, who went to George W. Bush and said, you got to do a two state solution now. Like you have record high approval ratings. 9-11 just happened. This is time we can get it done. And the reason Colin Powell said that was not because he wanted to give the Palestinians something, but because he knew that this was right at the center of the cause of why there's so much hatred for Americans in the Muslim world. And that we had every single president of my lifetime, with the exception of Trump, wanted a two state solution.

1:08:35None of them could ever get it done. None of them could ever get it done in large part because of the enormous power of the Israel lobby in the United States of America. The Arabs rejected it. Israel agreed. I know, I know. We heard you say that. Anyway. No, no. You need to talk about that. Israel agreed to every single two-state solution. Okay, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Right. Okay. You're telling me I'm wrong? I actually, you know, I... For the 15th time, you're 100 % wrong. Benjamin Netanyahu, the longest serving prime minister... Benjamin Netanyahu, the longest serving prime minister in Israeli history, has made at the center of his entire career thwarting a Palestinian state.

1:09:13He has said this in his own words over and over and over again. You don't know what you're talking about if you think that Israel has just been trying. No, you're just dumb. You don't know what you're talking about, dude. You call me a liar. Yeah, yeah, yeah, because you're calling me a liar, dude. And you're full of shit. You don't know facts? I'll tell you, I'll tell you, I'll tell you. Wait a second. Wait a second. Wait a second.

1:09:36Piers Morgan:I actually think... I did what? I did an idea tour? I wasn't there with ideas. Listen, I'll tell you. I've interviewed Bill Clinton a number of times, and he was emphatic about the fact the closest they came was when he says Arafat walked away from what many people now see was probably the best deal that was ever going to be on the table. I also think the assassination of Rabin was one of those moments from which I don't think anything has ever really recovered from that. killed by an extremist on his own side. By a Netanyahu fan. Right. And that may well be one of the reasons Netanyahu doesn't want to go down the same road.

1:10:09Piers Morgan:We just don't know. He acts in self-interest and everything else. Look, I've got to leave it there. I've got to leave it there. I'm sorry. It's been a great debate. You guys have been great. I really appreciate it. But I have got to move on. Thank you both very much indeed. Piers Morgan on Sensor is proudly independent. The only boss around here is me. If you enjoy our show, we ask for only one simple thing. Hit subscribe on YouTube. and follow Piers Morgan Uncensored on Spotify and Apple Podcasts. And in return, we will continue our mission to inform, irritate and entertain. And we'll do it all for free.

1:10:41Piers Morgan:Independent, uncensored media has never been more critical and we couldn't do it without you.

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