‘Erika Should STEP DOWN!’ One Year On From Charlie Kirk Death & Candace Owens Feud

23:54Piers Morgan:Well, joining me now is a very close friend of Charlie Kerr, the Turning Point spokesman, Andrew Colbert. Andrew, thank you for coming on our census. Your first time on the show. Yeah, thank you for having me, Piers. It's an honor to be here. You were, I think, listening to some of that interview with Megyn Kelly. Just on, obviously, we're a year on from Charlie's assassination. I can remember it very vividly, but not, I imagine, anywhere near as vividly as you would remember it. Where were you when you heard what had happened? Yeah, I was in Santa Barbara, actually. So I was where I lived. Charlie had me guest host the show that morning so he could focus on his tour stop at UVU.

24:39And so we had a we actually had Nick Shirley on, believe it or not. It was interesting right there in the first hour. And then we had a prerecord with another guest in our two that Charlie had already banked. And then so I was I was sitting at my desk at my my home office and I was actually texting with Charlie and our co-host now on the on the show, Blake Neff, about talking points about 25, 30 minutes before before it happened, actually.

25:11Piers Morgan:The impact on you, on all of Charlie's friends, his family, all his supporters was obviously enormous. A year later, as I said to Megyn Kelly, one of the things I found most repellent about the year has been the way that Erica Kirk has been treated. It's interesting to hear Megyn, who obviously has enormous love and admiration for Erica, but suggesting that maybe she should take some time out from Turning Point. She should go and just have some time with her family and just away from it all. that by attaching herself to a political organization in the way that she's done, albeit very courageously in this year, make yourself a target.

25:57Piers Morgan:What do you think of that? Well, I appreciate Meghan's sympathies and her compassion and love for Erica. I would just say that if you were around Turning Point, it wasn't something we talked about all the time, certainly, because we thought Charlie was going to be with us for another 50 years. But we all knew that that was...

26:47slow when network is busy. See terms. It's kind of the plan that Erica would take over. Something happened to Charlie. Charlie told it to me on at least two occasions. I was at the now infamous, you know, Aspen event where he was asked about it in front of donors. And he said that Erica would do a good job and, you know, she should take over. And I was I'm also aware that that was how he informed the board that he wanted things to go should something happen to him. So he told his financial planners. I mean, everybody sort of knew that Erica was the person that was going to take over. And my viewpoint on it is a little bit unique just because I see it internally, Piers, that my opinion is she was the only person that could have done what she did in that moment.

27:28If you know anything about the inner workings of Turning Point, she knew everybody. Everybody loved Erica. Everybody respected Erica. And we would rally around Erica. There's a real chance that Turning Point unravels in those immediate weeks following Charlie's assassination if she doesn't step in the way she did. And yeah, she, she wants to honor Charlie's legacy. She wants to carry it forward. And I think that for them, it's part of their family legacy and for her kids and peers, I would just tell your audience, you know, I think there's been, you know, I think cheap attacks against her that she's not taking care of her family or something like that.

28:01When I, when she comes into the office here, we've got kids toys all over the place. Her kids are with her when she comes in, you know, uh, we've got, um, a great family environment now these days. And actually, some of our other staff have newborns and kids as well. So they're running around. So we do our best to kind of balance everything. But this is, I think, a calling. I would just tell people, you know, a wife of a husband, a high profile husband has one calling. A widow has another. And she's going to do what she thinks is best. And we have her back 100 percent on that.

28:30Piers Morgan:The person at the center of so much of the conspiracy theory narrative about Turning Point, about Erica, about all of it is, of course, Candace Owens. And it's hard to ignore that reality because she spends most of her time spraying out new theories, ever more absurd ones it seems to me, about all this. You've come in her crosshairs. You know, at one stage she claimed she'd had a dream that Charlie's soul was in purgatory and stated she'd messaged you directly afterward accusing you of betraying him and asserting he knew much more about what happened than he was letting on. And that's, a, you know, if I'm in your shoes and I'm hearing that where almost, she's almost saying you were in on this, on the assassination of your boss, your friend and so on.

29:17Piers Morgan:I mean, I would be absolutely incensed. How do you feel about stuff like that? You know, I think your first reaction is probably right. Your assumption, you're incensed. You kind of can't believe it. But as time's gone by, I will tell you that, you know, I think people talk about peak woke. They talk about other sort of moments that reach a fever pitch and then they kind of subside. And I would just tell you that I feel much better about the state of the country, state of the movement and the online discourse when it comes to Charlie's assassination than I did six months ago. And I expect I'm going to feel better in six months from now.

30:00And so the lines are clearly drawn. And I think that makes it easier. I think what made it kind of reach that fever pitch in the beginning was people assumed that Candace was with us or that she agreed with us on, you know, politics or ideas and ideologies or about who Charlie even was. And I think people have clearly seen just how insane some of these ideas are, some of the new theories. And they constantly are getting debunked. And there's a whole army of people online. No, we don't pay them. We don't we don't even coordinate with them. They do this on their own because they feel like reality is at stake, good and evil is at stake.

30:38And so they're constantly going back and forth. And, you know, we have a mission to do and we're going to focus on the mission. And that's what Charlie did. And I'm borrowing straight from Charlie here, Piers. You know, he didn't get engrossed in the online feud culture. He just wanted to do good work and to move forward. And I think that's the example that we plan on following.

30:56Piers Morgan:Do you think Candace believes the stuff she says? or do you think she just thinks of ever more outrageous conspiracy theories that will get huge amounts of clicks and a ton of money? You know, I don't want to speculate on what she believes, Piers. I don't know anymore. The person that I see online is, you know, not exactly like the person I used to know. So I don't even know where she's coming from anymore. What do you hope Charlie Kirk's legacy will be? I mean, it always seemed to me incredibly ironic. I interviewed him several times, and I always enjoyed talking to him. But above all else, regardless of his own political beliefs, and he had very solid beliefs, which he believed, I have no doubt that he believed his beliefs.

31:43But I also have no doubt

31:45Piers Morgan:that there was this horrible irony that here's a guy that goes into almost the opposition camps again and again and again. He goes to places where most people wouldn't agree with him. And he says, prove me wrong. Literally the mantra which he used to say. And people would line up, and they'd ask him questions, and they'd have open democratic debate, which ought to be at the bedrock of any democratic society. And yet it was Charlie who did that, who got targeted and assassinated by somebody who despised him and his views. And there's a horrible irony there, isn't there? What do you hope his ultimate legacy will be from all this?

32:28Well, the point about the irony, it's really important. I mean, a lot of people understood in the immediate aftermath that he was the best of us. He was, you know, some people described him as a moderate, you know, he was doing politics in the way that we should be doing politics as Americans, as as Brits, that you actually discuss your ideas and you have this collision of ideas in the public square. It's an ultimate exercise of free speech. And Charlie believed that he could correct error and thinking and Gen Z, what they thought about politics, what they thought about President Trump and what they thought about America.

33:07And he was wildly successful. And ultimately, that's why he was targeted, because he was impacting a whole generation. He was impacting the whole country. Charlie was so excited to go back on tour in the fall of 2025 because he could see the movement and some of these fracture lines, you know, emerging, and he wanted to address that and basically be able to message to Gen Z. And yeah, the irony is that Charlie was such a wonderful person. And, you know, you see those videos online, peers where, you know, it's like Charlie Kirk destroys lib or whatever campus radical 90%. I would say 95 % of his interactions on campus were so calm, were so kind and decent.

33:53And he was so patient with people. And I don't know that those ones go so viral. But that was actually what was happening with Charlie was so willing to meet people where they're at. Now, if you were a troll, or if you came in bad faith, he would he was willing to match your energy if he felt like that. But so often the crowd would say, you know, dunk on this person, dunk on this person, because they couldn't believe something, you know, one of the questioners was saying. And he would always say, calm down, calm down, be respectful, respect this person. And, you know, so it's a tragedy. And it leaves an incredible void for our movement, because on so many levels, he wasn't just the best organizer, he wasn't just keeping people together behind the scenes, he wasn't just an amazing communicator.

34:32But he was the moral compass for the conservative movement. And that's what we have to remember is that Charlie's profound faith in Jesus Christ, his profound courage came from a place of moral decency. And it was obviously inspired by his faith. And Erica had a great part to play in that. Becoming a father had a great part to play in that. But I hope that that's what we remember this week is that Charlie was fundamentally a decent man that did not deserve obviously what happened to him. And as a matter of fact, he deserved all the accolades and more in life. But it is an irony and it is a tragedy.

35:09And I don't know what else to say about it than that.

35:14Piers Morgan:Yeah, I think that sums it up. Andrew Colbert, thank you very much today for coming on the Sensor. Joining me to debate this is host of The Crucible, Andrew Wilson, who, of course, recently debated Candace Owens. John Mappin, a businessman, public affairs commentator and former Turning Point insider. Rob O 'Neill, the former US Navy SEAL, who very appropriately this week, the man who killed Osama bin Laden. And Brandon Tatum, a.k.a. the Officer Tatum. Well, welcome to all of you. A stellar panel to debate this. Let me start with you, John Mappin. You were right in the Charlie Kirk camp, friend of both Charlie, of Candice Owens and of others around the turning point scene.

35:51Piers Morgan:You helped set up the UK wing, introduced Candice to her husband, George Farmer, and you're still friends with Candice. My question for you, which would be a question for Candice, but I haven't had her on the show for a while, is I've looked at all the evidence about Tyler Robinson and it's pretty clear what happened here. Tyler Robinson murdered Charlie Kirk. He didn't like him. And all the conspiracy theory noise, most of it driven by Candace, to me is very cynical. It's just to create a lot of noise, a lot of clicks and make a ton of money. What's your response to that?

36:33Well, I think if somebody watches Candice's show in sequence, there are plenty of anomalies that don't make any sense at all. And all I can go on is my personal experience of what I witnessed personally as a friend of Charlie's and of somebody who helped, as you say, not just launched Turning Point in the UK, but also introduced Charlie to some of his biggest donors and generated many tens of millions of dollars of donations to Turning Point. My wife and I are also friends with Erica Kirk. And I've paid very, very close attention to this. And I suppose the initial worry that I had was when one of Charlie's closest friends and executives at Turning Point, when I was arriving at the memorial, said to me, or actually sent me a text to say, as soon as you arrive, we need to meet to have a conversation, no phones.

37:42And that immediately put me on Twitter. I was turning up to celebrate Charlie's life at a memorial. I certainly believed the initial story. I had no reason to question it. Obviously, I was distraught. I was actually supposed to have been with Charlie that week in Arizona, but I had postponed my trip.

38:07Then I saw the most vitriolic attacks against Candace Owens, really for stating things that are absolutely true and demonstrably documented. What things? You know, the text messages that it... Well, sorry, is that Andrew?

38:31Piers Morgan:Yeah. Yeah, what things? What things are demonstrably true? Well, the text about Charlie's... Well, the fact that Charlie had texted people in Turning Point to say that he was concerned about threats on his life, which was initially denied. The night before he died, he sent a text that said that he was concerned the left was going to kill him, right?

39:02Well, I think... Sure. ..you know, all I can talk about is my personal experience.

39:10Piers Morgan:But, John, you said you met Charlie for dinner when he was last in London in May 2025, and at that meeting you said Charlie was expressing serious concerns about Israel, was talking about his own death, and when he left you had a feeling it was the last time you'd see him. I mean, that's an extraordinary revelation because what you're suggesting there is that his death may be somehow linked to Israel. But there is zero evidence that his death was linked to Israel. There's zero evidence of any link between Tyler Robinson and Israel. I'm not saying there is evidence of that. What I'm saying is that there was, I spoke to Charlie and his position on Israel had completely changed.

39:57I travelled to Israel with Charlie and Erica Kirk, and at that time we were guests, actually, of Imtiritzu, which is the principal Zionist organisation in Israel, and we were their guests. And at that time, in March 2019, Charlie was completely all in and would have supported anything that Israel did. Over time, his position was changing, and when I was in London, he told me about a letter that he'd written to Netanyahu and he told me, frankly, that he considered Bibi Netanyahu to be a psychopath. And that is a long, long way away from the narrative that was being pushed shortly after Charlie's death.

40:47Now, Candice started to point this out and I saw her coming under tremendous attack. So I wrote an open letter to Candace, basically saying, actually, what you're doing is exactly what Charlie would be doing if the roles were reversed. After I wrote that letter, I had a call from one of the most senior executives at Turning Point, telling me that he thought my letter was fantastic, that it was extremely well written, that he supported it entirely. He thought it was great. And he asked me to give Candace a message to double down on his investigation into Turning Point, specifically naming a very senior executive at Turning Point.

41:33But you're not going to tell us who any of these people are, right? You're not going to actually tell us who any of these people are, right? So none of this can be verified, of course. well i can verify it but the yeah how though if you won't tell us who these you're not yeah you're not going to tell us who these people are we just gotta you just we just gotta believe you right we just always have to believe you this happened there's no evidence that it happened you can't actually demonstrate your sources that it happened for all we know you just made the entire thing up how would we know the difference well and also listen andrew i'm not going to debate we haven't We've been going around in circles for, I don't know, 10 minutes now hearing you drag this on.

42:15What does this have to do with Charlie's death?

42:20Well, I think it's very important to get to the truth of who killed him. Yeah, but that's why the trial is going on right now.

42:26Piers Morgan:OK, but John, the truth is, and I will come to you, Brandon, the truth is Tyler Robinson killed him. All the evidence has been laid out. It's very clear, right? He had his grandfather's gun. There's video of him going to the rooftop. He takes the shot. He kills Charlie Kirk. There are text messages of him omitting it to his flatmate, lover, whatever. None of this is... I mean, I've studied crime for 40 years as a newspaper editor. I've presented many crime documentary series about serial killers and psychopaths and so on. This seems to me very straightforward. And the rest of it is just conspiracy noise designed to get people to tune in to Candice Owens' YouTube channel and make her money.

43:12Piers Morgan:But the victim in all this is not just... That's not my interest. I mean... I know, but you are friends with her. I've said it to her on here. It's like, I don't know why you do this. And I think the way she's treated Erica Kirk is unbelievably cruel. There's a grieving widow here, right, who for the last year has been grieving the appalling murder of her husband and a father of her two kids. and the constant attacks on Erica Kerr by candidates, I think, are disgusting. But I look at the evidence of this case. It's straightforward. It's up and down. There's no lawyer or police officer in the country who's looking at this going, oh, I wonder if Israel were involved.

43:49Piers Morgan:It's just... It's bullshit, isn't it? Well, that's your opinion, and, you know, I completely respect your opinion. It doesn't happen to be my opinion. I think there are many aspects of what we've been told that don't make sense to me. Maybe I'm an illogical person or maybe I'm a logical person, but what I've also discovered is that people that have really followed the detail and have actually got into and followed Candice's episodes and have actually watched them in sequence, which I have, tend to feel that the official story does not stack up. OK. OK, let me bring the others in. Andrew, look, you had an infamous debate with Candace Owens.

44:36Piers Morgan:You know, to me, like I say, this is straightforward. And you pushed her for the evidence that she does what she does very well. She kind of obfuscated and deflected and talked about other things and created a sort of, you know, sort of, well, it's all, you know, nudge, nudge, wink, wink, blah, blah, blah. But no actual factual evidence to contradict the overriding, very straightforward narrative that this guy, Tyler Robinson... Which was the, and that was the purpose of the debate from my end, was to demonstrate to the world that she had absolutely no foundational evidence for any of her claims.

45:06And she doesn't. And she backed away from each one that she's made. I went through also looking at the episodes in sequence, just like Mr. Mappin did. There's no good evidence for her claims at all. Just almost none. It's basically hearsay. They rely very heavily on my source said this, my source said that. Won't reveal who these sources are. so we can't ever make a determination if that's true. For all we know, they make their sources up. How would we ever falsify that? The biggest issue with this entire thing is that, logically, if you're going to go after something like this, you should go after it attempting to falsify your own claim.

45:42And if you can't falsify your claim, that is when you enter into the belief section of this thing, right? These people don't do that. They don't try to falsify the claim. Rather, they try to fit the puzzle pieces together to fit their view. That's the wrong way to go about it.

45:59Piers Morgan:Okay, Officer Tatum, welcome back to Uncensored before we go any further. But, you know, you were friends with Candice. Do you hear that? That sound, right? That means that summer's officially here. It means that grown adults just sprint into the street for a frozen dessert shaped like a cartoon. But this summer, Mint Mobile has a better treat. Every plan, including unlimited, is$15 a month. And unlike ice cream, it won't drip down your wrist or look nothing like the picture. Does anyone have any cash? Give it a try at mintmobile.com slash switch Upfront payment of forty five dollars for three months ninety dollars for six months or one hundred eighty dollars for twelve month plan required Fifteen dollars per month equivalent taxes and fees extra new customer offer for initial plan term only greater than 50 gigabytes May slow and network is busy see terms.

46:36Piers Morgan:I still get on personally I get on well with Candice I like her personally, but I don't like the way she's gone about this because I don't like the way she's treated Erica Kirk I think it's been extremely cruel But notwithstanding that the theories that she keeps putting out there which are completely unsubstantiated What do you make of what she's doing here and the effect it's having on public opinion? Because it is resonating with public opinion. Yeah, I mean, Candace is still my friend, but I disagree with her. I don't agree with anything that she's doing or saying. None of it makes sense to me.

47:12Me and her have had private conversations on the phone about this, and I just flat-out disagree. You know, I did this for a living. I did investigations for a living. I know how to look at evidence, and I know how to get to the bottom of things, And I love Charlie. Charlie was one of my good friends. I'll fight somebody over Charlie. And there's no way in the world that I want for the person who killed him to be walking free. So if there was some possibility whatsoever and evidence presenting that there's another person other than Tyler Robinson that killed Charlie Kirk, I would be on it. But it is no evidence that anybody else did it.

47:45Everything else is all bullcrap and shenanigans. There's no evidence Israel did it. There's no evidence Egypt did it. There's no evidence Turning Point did it. Erica Kirk had anything to do with it. And our reasonableness, I understand people have questions that's fair. We live in America. You had a freedom of speech. You can question things. But your questions don't lead you off a cliff. If you do not have evidence, you don't have evidence. We have cell phone records, text messages, confessions. He turned himself in. His father was there. His mother was there. A family friend facilitated the turning him in with turning him in.

48:18His DNA is on the gun, on multiple areas on the gun. His DNA is on the towel, a screwdriver. We saw him on camera in court. I was there. 30 hours of testimony. The defense is not even arguing some of these things that are pushed out here by conspiracy theories. The exploding microphone, nonsensical. And I do not understand why people who say they love Charlie is still pushing this stuff. It's OK to have questions, but you better doggone have some evidence if you're going to be out here shaming the legacy of Charlie Kirk. It's about his life. It's about what he did. And now it's conspiracies.

48:53Piers Morgan:Right, and shaming his wife. And, of course, what worries me is whatever happens with this, Candace will just continue to... I've got an ongoing bet with her about whether Brigitte Macron is male or female. A$300 ,000 bet to charity. And I can bet you that even if Brigitte Macron wins that case she's taken against her, which she will, Candice will find some reason to disbelieve it and just not accept it, as she will with this one. And she'll do that, and her supporters will just go along with it. I'll be bringing Rob O 'Neill. Rob, welcome back to you. And obviously... Thank you, Pierre. ..particularly relevant to have you in this week as we commemorate the 25th anniversary of 9-11, and I'll come to that a little later.

49:34Piers Morgan:But during the debate between Candace and Andrew, one of the main bones of contention was how the bullet that killed Charlie acted on impact. Let's take a look at the clip first. I also want to say that you're saying this can happen and Rob O 'Neill is infinitely more qualified, I think, to speak on that. Why? Well, because he's actually shot and killed people. Why would that have anything to do with anything? Well, because... Did he slow down all the videos of the people he shot to see if their clothes moved? Well, why are you able to assert your position as a fact? Because I'm going to tell you how projectiles work.

50:09He's not even going to – I guarantee you this guy is not even going to disagree with what I'm about to say. If it is the case that you have energy and you have mass and the mass is moving in the air, the air has to go somewhere. It doesn't have a choice.

50:21Piers Morgan:I think you're like totally BSing right now, Van. Well, Rob, I mean you're the one to ask. Do you agree with Andrew? well i mean the thing with ballistics is any time any time you fire a shot is fired anything can happen and that's just how it goes and yes there's a shockwave that follows it uh the projectile and generally it goes into the body and it forms a temporary cavity that's actually what kills you not the projectile itself uh can it happen a different way yeah i mean it can happen a lot of different ways but the reason that i'm brought into this is because the first time i saw it it was i did not like it no one liked it it was sent to me my initial reaction as someone who has killed people within feet was I've been involved in bad shootings too.

51:04My initial reaction was that didn't look right. How are they going to explain this? Something's off. I'm not saying I know who did it or what happened. I'm saying the way that looked right. There's not someone that got shot and that looked like an exit wound on his left, the left part of his neck. It just doesn't look like, um, I, you know, I didn't know what was fired at him. I don't know what hit him. I don't know what killed him. I don't know any of that stuff. Knowing later it's a 30 odd six, I would say 99 out of 100 times it's going to blow someone's head off one time it might not and again you're dealing now you start dealing with the court where i wasn't there at the time i'm not uh particularly fond of the case very closely i wasn't in the courtroom i wasn't as close to charlie clerk as as anyone on this panel i'm saying as a seal team six sniper who's been a sniper since 1998 and killed a lot of people up close when i saw it that's bad how are they going to explain it and then you i mean you get stuff because you get the conspiracies fortunately for all of us.

51:56We've all experienced immediate response from anything you say or do. And then when word flies, Israel's involved, they say they didn't do it. Now you're saying, well, Israel said they didn't do it. Then they're in the conversation. And we know this too. A lot of people get involved for clicks and that's how they make their money. And I'm not saying anyone here is doing it. It happens. We've all seen it. It does it. I get involved. My name is brought up because of my past. The one thing I want to say to people is I was not there. And I'm just saying what I think.

52:20Piers Morgan:Well, what's interesting, Rob? And I'm actually enjoying listening to everybody else because I want to get their side. You're being very honest about this, and you're eminently qualified to talk about sniping. Obviously, the authorities of ballistic data placed the distance of the fatal shot at roughly 140 to 200 yards, so about 122 metres. They have established he used his grandfather's scoped bolt-action.30-06 calibre rifle. Yeah. No evidence was presented that Robinson was a highly skilled or trained marksman. And I guess the conspiracy theories, if that's what they are, as caveat it, because he's not been convicted yet.

53:00Piers Morgan:But let's just talk this through. The fact that he took one shot and was immediately successful in his mission to assassinate Charlie Kirk, if that's what he did, as people believe. You know, in your experience, from that distance, with that kind of weapon, how likely is it that somebody with no specialist marksman training could perform that one shot. That's not a far shot. I mean, even when you get into the taking the gun apart or taking the scope off, if you do take it apart and reassemble it and it looks the same, your cold bore shot, you might not have the dope that you had at, say, 100 yards.

53:36And for example, if you're on at 100 yards, but now you're not because you put it together, you aim for the head, you might hit the neck. It could happen. A minute of angle at 100 yards is one inch. And that's how you start to measure it. So a missed shot at 100 yards could be seven inches off. So, again, anything could have happened if I was not there filming it or looking and talking to people. I'm just saying from my experience, what I have seen, I saw this on television, which, again, is another false flag because everything we see on television, you've got to take 50 percent of that away.

54:05Andrew, what's your response to that? Yeah, I mean, he's right. The other issue that you have is that I don't even think that Robinson took the scope off. He brought a screwdriver with him. Usually the type of scope that you would see on that would have Allen wrench. You would need an Allen wrench to take it off. What he likely did was he just removed the stock. The scope was still fixed on the rifle, and he just put the rifle back on. I'm just saying because I don't know the full story of how much he took apart. I'm just saying that even if he took it apart and took a shot, it wasn't behind it.

54:35It's not unusual to hit that shot. Yeah, to be fair, nobody does. We don't know if that's the case. This is speculation, but it's not a difficult shot to even open sight at 140 yards with a.30-06. Not a problem at all. Right, right. And if he had a scope, even less of a problem. And it doesn't appear that he actually, he got lucky. Hang on, real quick, just let me follow up with this. I'll just, I just want to follow up real quick. The U.S. Army has done tons and tons of research into this particular caliber because we've been using it since World War I. We used it in World War I. We used it in World War II.

55:06We used it in Korea. We used it in Vietnam. and you still have some.30-06 rifles which are in service today, I believe. And it is one of the most researched rounds around. And it is, in fact, the case that we have tons and tons of examples of a.30-06 full metal jacket, which is not even a soft point round, entering into a body and not penetrating all the way. It happens. With a full metal jacket, it happens. With a soft point, it also happens. This is not unheard of. It's just rare. In the case of Martin Luther King, he was shot with a.30-06, and it didn't over-penetrate like you would expect.

55:41That's a bad example because it entered into the jaw, penetrated, and then hit again. That's why you shouldn't use that example. But there are two living soldiers. I don't necessarily think it's a bad example because a.30-06 would normally— Who have had that happen to them, where they were hit with the equivalent of a.30-06. Brandon, let me ask you— Let me explain. I don't think it's a bad example because normally when you look at a.30-06 being shot at somebody, it'll blow right through you. And so the fact that it didn't overpenetrate like one would expect even with Martin Luther King and then also with Charlie Kirk, it's not that odd.

56:15You know, it's rare, but it's not impossible. And when you look at the forensic evidence that they extracted the round from his body and the shrapnel, And they did all of the investigatory things that they needed to do to determine that he was shot with a 30-class round, which is a 30-06. Well, he also had hemorrhaging. What they're saying is that there was also a lot of hemorrhaging around the chest area. So it's likely that when this cavitation was formed and the round broke up because they pulled it out in pieces, that tons and tons of the actual soft point round moved down into the chest area, which is common in a cavitation like this.

56:49So especially if you have a round that's a soft point. So, like, all of this is not only plausible and possible, but it's even likely. The only thing that you would even be able to say is a rarity is that there was no full penetration in the neck. But that does happen.

57:07Piers Morgan:Okay. Well, we're going to get to the bottom of all this, I suspect. I just want to talk back to you, John. Officer Tatum posted on X this. You can't truly be Charlie Kirk's friend if you're tearing down his wife. The sudden wave of hatred directed at Erica is completely backwards. Why didn't any of these cowards have a word of criticism for her while Charlie was still alive? If we're going to honour Charlie, we need to show some respect to the family that he left behind. And I feel that strongly, that the way Erica Kirk has been treated has been disgusting, frankly. Trampling on the grief of a young grieving widow.

57:45Piers Morgan:Well, what do you feel about it? I think it's much more nuanced, Piers. My wife and I are very close to Erica. We love her very much indeed. And so did Candice and so does Candice. I've just spent a week with Candice and she absolutely had no intention whatsoever to be unkind to Erica in any way. there are what? what are you saying? can you speak faster? what are you saying? you saying now or before? you saying currently? when Charlie was killed when Charlie was killed you're saying before what we see today yes for nearly I think it was nearly a month after Charlie was killed it was prior to the time at which they met They had a private meeting and in that private meeting, something happened between Charlie, between Erica and Candace.

58:53And she tells the story better than I can tell it. But this is much, much more nuanced. Candace is extremely sincere. I mean, you know this, Officer Tatum. She's an extremely sincere person. And this idea that she somehow is pushing a conspiracy rather than genuinely trying to get to the truth about what happened to our friend is a total lie. She is completely sincere. She is not doing it for clicks. She is not doing it for money. She doesn't need money. Her husband is more than capable of taking care of her for the rest of her life. She claimed Erica Kirk is complicit in Charlie Kirk's murder, man.

59:36She's claimed it publicly many times that she's complicit. The TPSA is complicit. When I asked her what that means, what does complicit mean? She says, well, it just means that you believe that Tyler Robinson, who she thinks has a 0 % chance of actually having murdered Kirk, that she just believes that. You don't use the rhetoric of you're complicit. You're part of this. You don't use that rhetoric if it's the case that that's your friend and you just want good things for them. Can I just make one point? Yeah. I've that that's your interpretation of what she said. I have never heard her say that.

1:00:14And that is not you know, you do have a habit of altering things. But I do have to thank you for something, Andrew. I missed the part there. You did pay for a fantastic dinner that we had in Iceland. You're saying that she doesn't need the money. Hang on. Remember, she doesn't need the money. Hold on. Wait a minute. Are you saying that Candace Owens doesn't have any vitriolic feelings towards Erica Kirk? Not at all. Are you... You're lying. I talked to Candace. I talked to Candace. I talked to Candace the other day. She cannot stand Erika Kirk. I'm fully aware of your conversation and I'm fully aware of the content.

1:00:52She does not like Erika Kirk. By the way, not only am I aware of your conversation... She does not like Erika Kirk since the day they met. Not only am I aware of your conversation with Candace. Why are you not being honest? Since the day they met, she had no... Let me talk. She had no issues with Erika Kirk, and this is what she told me. until they met and she despises her. She thinks she's a terrible person. She talks about her every day on the show. So be honest about it. You don't have to lie. I'm very aware of the conversation. Candice will get on this show right now and tell you she despises her.

1:01:23Officer Tatum, I'm very aware of your conversation with Candice the other day. She had it when we were in Iceland together. She told me the entire contents of the conversation you had. and I'm not going to do you a disservice of repeating it because you know exactly what you discussed. Yeah, yeah, we could repeat it. What do you want to do? Are you trying to say it was some secret conversation? It was not a secret conversation. Me and her had a conversation about this case and other things. No, it wasn't a secret conversation. It was a private conversation. But I'm just telling you that I know what you discussed.

1:01:54Hang on, hang on, hang on. You're here acting as if Candace loves Erica Curry. Hang on.

1:01:59Piers Morgan:John Mappin, just to be clear, it sounds like Officer Tayton's perfectly happy for you to reveal whatever it is you're suppressing. So why don't you just tell him, just say what you're talking about? Yeah. No, I'm not going to get into a private conversation. Because there's nothing. You're making it sound like a thing, but he's having me to reveal it. Is that Candace Owens... What are you talking about? Candace Owens has nothing more than a pure Christian love for Erica. No, she does not. And as does my wife. Is that why she made the documentary Wife on Charlie Kirk? Let me put this in perspective.

1:02:35Let me put this in perspective. To being a sex trafficker, John? Can you explain why she tries to link Erica Kirk to being a sex trafficker if she thinks that Erica Kirk is just, you know, it's just Christian concern? Let me put this in perspective. Let me put this in perspective. You hung out with her in Iceland. I talked to her on the phone in Iceland. Now, I'm not saying anything that Candace Owens is not saying on her own show. and I love Candace. She's a friend of mine. I disagree with her though. And I appreciate Erica Kirk. I talked to her not too long ago. She don't like Erica Kirk. It is very clear to you and to me, but you lie and I'm telling the truth.

1:03:16And Candace wouldn't be mad if I said it because she said on her show every day, she said she needs to be taken to a precinct and investigated for the murder of Charlie Kirk. That means I don't like you. If Erica Kirk killed Charlie, I wouldn't like her either. But the truth is, Erica had nothing to do with it, and there's no evidence presented. And you don't have to lie. You don't have to be fake on the show. You can just tell the truth. And there's nothing... People are entitled to their own opinion. Candace don't have to like Erica Kirk. She don't have to like Erica. That's fine. That's her decision.

1:03:49But don't get on here and lie. I don't Obstetium, I'm not lying to you and it may be a little bit too deep of a concept for you to fathom but you know friendship takes many forms and being a true friend She told me flat out that after she talked to Erica Kirk that she couldn't stand her because she lied She told me that Erica Kirk lied about too many things about Charlie Kirk and she cannot stand her She thinks she's covering up Charlie Kirk's death what are you saying can i ask you a question officer tatum that i've been wanting to ask you why is it when you know that owens has done everything possible to destroy uh everything that charlie kirk left behind including tp usa his wife that and then by proxy of that his children why the hell are you still friends with this chick can you explain that to me because i actually don't understand that like what you're talking about her doing and what hang on hang on and What you say publicly that she did is literally evil.

1:04:50It's the epitome of evil from your view. That's a good question, actually. Good question. Why the hell are you friends with her? I think that's a great question. Hold on. I think it's a great question. The thing is, is that me and Candace go back a long way. So our friendship means more than her disagreements and her feelings towards Charlie Kirk. Charlie, she's not coming after me. These aren't just disagreements, though. No, no. Let me finish. Let me finish. You ask the question. You claim that this is an evil worldview. She's doing evil things. Let me finish. Let me finish what I'm saying. You asked the question.

1:05:18Go ahead. Me and her go back from 2017. I knew her before I knew Charlie Kirk. I knew her before I knew Erica Kirk. Candace and I have been best friends for a very long time. She has been always good to me. So you're saying she's an insincere person. Let me explain. Are you saying that she's an insincere person? But are you saying she's an insincere person? Hold the phone, and I will finish, and then I'll let you talk. We have been friends for a very long time. It has been recent that she has come out and done this, and I disagree with her. Two people can still know each other, be friends with each other, and disagree.

1:05:54Now, if she was coming at me, that'd be a story. Are you saying that she's insincere in the purpose? This seems like bet hedging. Real quick, let me just get in. This seems like you're just hedging your bets. You speak out of both sides of your mouth. I don't have to hedge your bets. Nobody's talking about me. Hang on, hang on, hang on, man. Hang on, man. Let me get it out, and then you can respond to it. This does not have anything to do with me. How is it, on the one hand, you're like, this woman is perpetuating horrible evil on a family of a murdered man who is a widow, doing these horrible things to him.

1:06:22But she's my friend. You know, she's my friend, though. Because friendship don't mean you have to agree with people. Friendship don't mean you have to agree with people. That transcends disagreement. Friendship don't mean you have to agree with people. If I had a family member that I disagree with, somebody that I think is doing horrible things or saying horrible things, they steal my family. I just disagree with them. Candace can change. Things that she said may change. The question is why she's doing these supposedly horrific things to people you claim to love, you're just like, yeah, we're still friends, though.

1:06:58I'm speaking out about it. You just disagree. I'm speaking out about it. Your mind is not complex enough. Maybe you don't have real relationships. Maybe you don't have real friends and relationships in your life. I can be your friend and disagree with you. I can be your friend and disagree with you. This transcends disagreement from your view. What is the difference between me saying I'm her friend and not her friend today or tomorrow? Did that change what she say every day on the television? Does that change anything? It would show us at least who you are. It would show us who you are. It don't show anything.

1:07:32I can say I'm not a friend. That don't change anything. They don't change the reality of what you say. Let me ask Officer Tatum. What I'm saying, she's super sincere and you can trust her. And you're like, well, no, you can't, but she's my close friend. And so he's pointing the consistency out. You guys are debating this enough.

1:07:52Piers Morgan:Let me ask Officer Tatum. So John Mappin won't reveal the contents of the call that you had recently with Candace Owens. in the contents of that conversation you had, is her position still, as you've suggested, that she believes Erica Kirk has something to do with Charlie's death? She believes that Erica Kirk is covering it up or no more than she's presenting to the world. That's what I got from the conversation. And I'm going to be honest with you. I think she really believes what she's saying. Everything that I mentioned to her, she has a response to it. So she is sincere. John Mappin, just to be clear, is that what you were reluctant to put in the public domain?

1:08:35Piers Morgan:But now, obviously, Tatum has said it. No, there's other material that I wouldn't put in the public domain. But the truth of the matter is that Candice is 1 ,000 % sincere. And what she is doing is she's doing out of the deepest possible love. She is doing this out of the deepest possible Christian love for Charlie Kirk, for his wife, and for America. The consequences to the soul of America... I think she's wrong, and I think she's doing more harm than good in this situation. Well, that's your opinion. But that's your opinion. All I'm saying is she's sincere. Did Candace tell you she's still my friend?

1:09:14Is Candace still my friend? Does she still respect me enough to be my friend? She didn't discuss that. Okay, obviously she is because we talked on the phone. But two people can be... That's the one thing I want people to understand. Two people can be friends because we go back way back like two flats. But I just disagree with her and she disagreed with me on this topic. There's been other things that I agree with Candace on. There's been other things that me and Candace have been through. We started a nonprofit together. We've done a lot of things together as two individuals who know each other.

1:09:44Our families are connected. I know her father. I visited him when he was in the hospital. We celebrate him on Father's Day. There's more to it than a disagreement on a certain topic. I know that. I know that. Well, that's why we're still considered friends, but we disagree. All I'm saying is, Officer Tatum, all I'm saying is, I acknowledge that you're sincere about your opinion. She is completely sincere in what she is doing, and she's doing it out of the deepest level of patriotism for America. You know, the price that America will pay for incorrectly... And that's fair. If that's what you believe, that's fair.

1:10:23No, no, let me finish. Let me finish. The Communist Party in the USA is super sincere too. So what does that mean? That doesn't mean anything. Your sincerity doesn't mean anything. Oh, I truly believe. The communists truly believe in communism. So what? That doesn't mean anything. I'm not interested in whether or not she's sincere. I'm interested in the amount of damage that she's doing to the right and the horrible things that she's conducting on people, which is life-ruination. I thought the thesis was that she was doing it for clicks and money, Andrew. I thought the thesis was that she was doing it for clicks and money.

1:10:53Thesis is both. You can be sincere and want clicks in money, can't you? The thing I would say, the thing I would say is really... Andrew, hang on, hang on. Let me just say something. Andrew, hold on, hold on. Andrew, but you did the most ridiculous thing. Andrew, you did, and I like you, Andrew, but you did the most ridiculous thing I ever heard of in my life. I don't like you. How in the world did you pay her$300 ,000 to do a debate? No, no, I want to say thank you to Andrew. Hang on, hang on. Andrew, Andrew, Andrew, Andrew paid. Now, let me just say, Andrew, you paid for the most fantastic dinner in Iceland.

1:11:25Yeah, I know. I heard you the first time. It was a great joke, bro. We went out for the most slap-up dinner. I know. It was great. I know. Fantastic. I'm glad that you had a wonderful meal for once that wasn't on the Lolita Express. Now, that aside, I would like to just talk to Mr. Tatum. So what? I get paid a small fortune to do debates all the time, all over the country. Tons and tons of cash. Hang on, hang on, hang on. I don't have an issue with somebody requesting an appearance fee for a debate and somebody who has one of the top podcasts in the world, that was never a question of me, for me.

1:11:57I don't care about that. It's not relevant to me. What's relevant to me is actually getting at the facts, getting at the truth and exposing that for the world to see. That's what was relevant to me. And I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is. Well, here's the thing. You say that Candace Owens is doing such evil and harm, but you gave her$300 ,000 to do more of it.

1:12:16Piers Morgan:Well, Andrew, let me ask... You're trying to criticize me for being her friend, but I vehemently disagree. Guys, if I can get a word in Edgeways on my own show, I'd appreciate it. Guys, guys, guys, let me ask a question on my own show. Let me ask a question on my own show. Guys, let me ask a question on my own show if I can. Andrew, a couple of things. One is there's a rumor that you were paid by Turning Point to do that interview, and that's how you recoup some of your money. Is that true? No. OK. Secondly, you know, there's been lots of polls and stuff that came out of it. Some said you won, some said she won, whatever, whatever, whatever.

1:12:56Piers Morgan:I saw you both scoring points with each other. You became a subject of some memes like this one called the debate tricks. Let's take a look at this. This is your last chance. After this, there is no turning back.

1:13:15You take the blue pill and you can just keep saying, so what? You take the red pill. You learn everything about the Tyler Robinson case.

1:13:38So what? So what? So what? So what? Positive evidence? So what? So what? What? Appeal to emotion. So what? Burden of proof. So what? So what? So what? So what? Appeal to emotion. So what? Burden of proof. So what? Positive evidence. Positive evidence. Positive evidence. Positive evidence. So what? So what? So what? Appeal to emotion. What? So what?

1:14:03Piers Morgan:What did you make of that, Andrew? I don't care. People meme on people all the time on the internet. She has a much larger audience than I do. There's nothing that I can do about that. But on almost every exit poll before she was able to get the swarmers in while it was live, I won every single one of them in that debate. Also, any of the AI algorithms point out that she had nothing substantive to say. But she has a larger audience. There's literally nothing I can do about that. But memes, stuff like that, that doesn't bother me. That's part of internet culture. And I think it's healthy, right?

1:14:38That's a healthy part of criticism. It's a healthy... Like, you can't laugh at other people if you can't laugh at yourself, Pierce.

1:14:44Piers Morgan:Yeah, I agree with you. Robert Neal, you've been waiting very patiently. But can I ask you something, Andrew? Andrew, why... Sure. Can I ask you something, Andrew? Why do you think that one of Charlie's most trusted friends and top executives at Turning Point and one of Erica's most trusted friends and top executives at Turning Point called me and asked me to tell us, John? Yeah, who is it? You've got to give us a name. I know everybody at Turning Point. Here's what you understand about protecting sources. Come on, can I want to know now? Let's do this. I don't think you can just say some anonymous person called you.

1:15:13Piers Morgan:OK, but hang on, hang on. If you're going to make a serious charge on that... Hang on, let me just grant it. Let me finish the question. Let me just grant it. Why would that happen? If everything was all hunky-dory, and this person told me that there was a power grab shortly after Charlie died, that a group of people were trying to get hold of the control of Turning Point, and he specifically asked me to let Candace know to specifically keep on investigating. This is one of Erica Kirk's best friends. You don't think there might be something going on behind the scenes that is slightly more nuanced.

1:15:49Okay, hang on. I'm going to grant that this happened and that your source is being legit and all this. What in the hell does that have to do with whether or not Tyler Robinson shot Charlie Kirk? Can you explain that to me?

1:16:03Well, I think with any investigation, you start pulling strings and you start looking into things that don't make sense. And that actually does not, hang on, hang on, hang on, hang on. Do you realize that that doesn't actually answer the question? Great. We want to pull threads. Great. Can you explain to me why, even if this top executive did call you, did say all of this to you, what in the hell does that have to do with whether or not Tyler Robinson shot Charlie Kirk? Can you just answer that directly? I think what it might speak to, and I don't know, because I don't know exactly everything that Candace has discovered.

1:16:39What I do know is that she's discovered a lot more than she has already revealed. And I think the next few months will be very interesting. I think they will be. Okay, but hang on, hang on. Can you just answer the question that I asked you? What does that have to do with whether or not Robinson shot Kirk? The answer is nothing, right? Has nothing to do with it at all? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. Nothing. Yeah, exactly. So who cares? Who cares if a top objective called you to whine? I'm not saying Robinson did you, Charlie Cook. Why should anybody care that a top objective called you to whine and cry and bitch about the inner workings of Turning Point USA has nothing at all to do with anything with your obfuscation?

1:17:20He wasn't whining. He wasn't whining. How about you tell me who it is? He wasn't bitching. How about you tell me who it is? Because I'm headed down to Turning Point USA tomorrow. And I want to know who this person is that told you this so I can have a conversation with this person. And maybe Erica should know who this person is. Does she know who it is? I'm sure she does. I'm sure she does. Okay. Are you sure or you know? I'm sure she does. You know for a fact or are you guessing?

1:17:48Well, because this is a game I don't want to play. I really do believe in Charlie Kirk and his message and his legacy. I really do believe in Turning Point USA. And if there's somebody that's a rat or somebody who's doing something wrong in Turning Point USA, I need to know. Well, how about if it's a good person? How about if it's a good person that wants to expose evil? Well, come on, let's work together. I'll work with that person. Well, how about me and them get together and find out evil? How are you telling you we want to discover evil, but you hide the people that can disclose it? And that's what Candace begged Turning Point to do after Charlie was killed.

1:18:27Well, put it out there right now. That they share truthfully the information that they have. Well, let's put it out here now. That's what she was begging for. So we can shut the place down. We'll shut the place down if they're doing something in the fairies against Charlie Cook's legacy. Put your cards on the table. Let's put all the information on the table. Good, do it. Who is the source? It's not my privilege to disclose. OK, look, he's not going to give us a name.

1:18:51Piers Morgan:So, look, I'll respect you not revealing the source. It's fine. Look, I want to move on to one thing before we finish, and that's to bring Rob O 'Neill to be sitting very patiently. Rob, thank you for your patience. Of course. 9-11, 25th anniversary. I mean, we talk about conspiracy theories. There are raging conspiracy theories to this day about 9-11 in all different aspects of it. You know, some about you, you know, that you weren't the guy that killed Osama bin Laden, even though you obviously were. What, Piers, where did you hear that? How do you deal with that, though, Rob? I mean, on a personal level, when you know you're the guy that killed bin Laden, and it's been verified by a number of the guys that were with you, but you have some who say, no, no, it wasn't him.

1:19:33Piers Morgan:It was me, whatever. How do you deal with that? Well, Andrew Wilson just said, you know, it's part of it. I don't really care. That's just how it is. I mean, with me, it's not like a story. I'm just telling you what happened. And with the truth, it's like either believe me or you don't. And something else with the truth, it takes no, there's no effort. You don't really need to prove over and over the truth. When you're covering something up, you really need to get emotional and fire stuff up and really, really yell about things. And that's just not, that's not where I am, you know, and it's, uh, I know there's conspiracies everywhere and we see it with every major event from, uh, 9-11 to October that we had a years ago.

1:20:08Um, you know, everything from the Gulf of Tonkin, there's always stuff like that. And if you weren't there, you don't know exactly what happened. But the thing is with stuff like 9-11, October 6th, or even going to war, even if you don't believe in why it happened, it comes down to who's next to you in combat. We never lost a fight toe to toe. And I was fighting for the man next to me. That's it. It wasn't about George Bush. It wasn't about Barack Obama. It was never about that. And the same thing with the conspiracies. Look, people jumped out of the towers. And all I'm saying is I would much rather have another 9-12 than I would another 9-11 because it happens.

1:20:38It doesn't matter why we got here or how we just are here. And that's where we are. I mean, even right now, getting together and having a lively debate, but cordial. That's what it's all about. The one takeaway I take from all of this is I never travel or go to sleep at night angry with anyone in my family because you don't know what's coming tomorrow. What you're worried about in life never happens. It's the random lockdown on a Thursday when you're thinking about a primary in the 2020 election, stuff like that. So master the basics, be good to your family and your community and just, you know, take it as...

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1:22:20The way we called it was technically three shots and a splash. Okay, yeah. But I appreciate that. That's awesome. I did quit drinking, but I'd love to meet up and do that. I'll think of something else that would be lively and fun.

1:22:33Piers Morgan:Rob, I talked to Megyn Kelly earlier about the fact that New York obviously has its first Muslim mayor, Mamdani. and there's a debate driven by Rudy Giuliani saying he shouldn't attend the memorial service on Friday because of his alleged association with people connected to 9-11 hijackers. He should 100 % show up for that. He's the mayor of New York and he was elected. And again, it doesn't matter how we got here, we did. Some New Yorkers say, well, the New Yorkers didn't vote for him. Yes, they did. He won the election. He's a New Yorker. He's the mayor. 25-year anniversary. He should 100 % be there.

1:23:05And do you have any problem with him being there personally?

1:23:08Piers Morgan:I don't at all, no. Yeah. Well, I can attest, Rob, I've interviewed you many, many times. You were the hero who killed Osama bin Laden. And on the 25th anniversary, I'd like to once again. I certainly worked with a lot of heroes. Yeah. And I'd like to just thank you and all the Navy SEAL Team 6 guys that did that. I was on air. I remember I was at CNN at the time, went on air after it happened. It was an amazing moment in American history, in the world's history. And you did us all a massive favor when you did that. It was the greatest honour to be picked to be part of that team. Nothing can take that away from any of us.

1:23:43Piers Morgan:Yeah. We'll end on that very positive note. A very interesting debate, I have to say. I thank all of you for today. That was really fascinating to watch, I have to say. Thank you all very much. Thank you, Piz. Thanks, Nick. Well, joining me now is a true crime legend, Nancy Grace, the host of Crime Stories. Nancy, great to talk to you. Likewise, Piers. Nice to see you. It's been a while. We used to have a lot to do with each other. When I was at CNN, you were at HLN. It's great to see you again, looking so well. So much happening in your wheelhouse of expertise, isn't there? On this huge story of the Charlie Kirk murder, there are myriad conspiracy theories raging around, many driven by Candace Owens and her followers.

1:24:30Piers Morgan:What is your assessment on all the evidence being presented so far? What is your assessment of this case? Conspiracy theorists will always be with us. And I wonder where that comes from. I think people simply do not want to believe the facts because I find them very straightforward. And let's just start with the fact that the alleged shooter, Tyler Robinson, had access to his grandfather's Mauser, 006. So what am I supposed to think? That someone else got Tyler Robinson's grandpa's shotgun, his gun, and then sneaks to the event to gun down Charlie Kirk? Well, who? Who would that be? Let's just start with that straightforward argument.

1:25:20Because very often, and you and I have talked about this before, when you get into scientific theories, let's just go with Top Mom Casey Anthony for a moment. A lot of scientific evidence was brought on that there was decomposition air in Top Mom's trunk where the body was kept. Now, that's hard to explain to a non-scientific person that the air itself can contain particles of decomposition. And it got very, very intricate. And sometimes it's just too much for the jury. It's just like a tidal wave. But the thought that who else is going to use Grandpa's Mauser beside him? It ain't the mom. It ain't the dad.

1:26:04So it's him. And then, of course, there's the video showing him going up and down to the sniper's nest. There are his confessions. There's tons of forensic evidence, yet somehow there are still conspiracy theories that he didn't do it.

1:26:22Piers Morgan:I suppose the only unanswered question after that is, well, did anyone put him up to it? And that's, I guess, one thing which may or may not emerge. Piers. Well, listen. Stop. My view is there's no evidence of any of that. Put him up to it. Piers, under the law, that would be some type of coercion. And he looked pretty happy-go-lucky to me as he was going up those steps to a sniper's den to murder Charlie Kirk. And what about all those scouting trips where he would go and look around the scene and pick the location of the perfect sniper's nest? Who was making him do that? Who made him go get his grandfather's gun?

1:27:09Who made him say, I had my chance to take Charlie Kirk out and I took it? Who made him do all that? Sounds like bragging to me, not coercion.

1:27:18Piers Morgan:It does. And, you know, one of the problems here is it's interesting. If you look at the early part of your career, there was no social media, right? And you couldn't have this kind of groupthink flooding the airways of the internet because none of it existed. Now, with all these cases, we see it and we saw it, you know, with the Lindsay Clancy case, right? Exactly the same thing, where somebody starts a mad conspiracy theory, and before we know it, everyone's leaping on this and saying, well, maybe that's what happened. How problematic is that becoming, do you think? For example, to the minds of jurors or potential jurors, when you have this kind of trial by public jury going on at the same time.

1:28:03Well, number one, I like it. I like social media theories because it gives me an idea where the defense is going to go. And you know, Pierce, when I would prepare any trial, I would not only prepare my own case, but I would try to anticipate what is the defense going to do so I can shoot it down before they even get it in the air. And I always like to just hit them in the opening statement and shoot down all their theories and turn around and look at them and they look really like deflated balloons. So I like to hear that. I like to research what people are saying online. I like to listen and read the live chats while Crime Stories is airing so I can see reaction and where people's minds are going so we can be prepared for the defense.

1:28:49It's going to be really hard to claim coercion or Assad defense. Some other dude did it when we got Tyler Robinson on video going up to the sniper's den. There's ballistics. There's just so much evidence. There's DNA. And it goes on and on and on. In fact, the towel that was used to wrap the murder weapon has DNA from the roommate, Lance Twiggs. And I'm not suggesting that he had anything to do with the murders. I'm saying it came from their home. So some other dude went into their place, snuck a towel, got Grandpa's gun, and then planted the defendant's DNA. That did not happen. Sorry, all you conspiracy theorists.

1:29:33Piers Morgan:There is evidence that this sort of what they call the Candace Owens effect is having an impact on the public. Polymarket shows that the number of people who think Tyler Robinson will be convicted of homicide has fallen from 59 % to just 30 % today. Only a third of people, according to these latest numbers, believe this guy is guilty of the crime of murder. What do you make of that? Not very much because they're not going to be sitting on the jury, so don't care. simple. As simple as that. Just as simple as that. Come on. You know what I found out? You know what I found out, Piers? I found out that people were taking bets on the Clancy trial.

1:30:15That is sick. What ghoul is doing that? I mean, three dead children. Piers, this is something I normally would tell a jury. I don't really talk about it on air, but now I feel like I've been forced to in the past few days. Those strangulations of those three children, Cora, Dawson, and Callan, were so ferocious, partially because of the ligature itself. They were exercise bands, which are stretchy, like a bungee cord. So, Lindsay Clancy, who admits she killed the children, and that's not up to discussion, had to pull and pull and readjust tension, as experts call it, translation, pull even harder, which means these children's necks had to be deformed, shrunk down like that with their head on top of a little neck like that by the time mommy was done with them.

1:31:14I mean, let's just think about that for a moment.

1:31:18Piers Morgan:But is that the action, Nancy? Now it's all about Lindsay Clancy. Right. I mean, I had that debate with Megyn Kelly earlier because is that the actions of somebody of sound mind or could it be she was genuinely suffering from a psychosis which compelled her to do this? And it remains just as heinous a crime, but did they charge her with the wrong thing? Should they have charged her with something which rather than first-degree murder, where you'd have to make a calculation of this was cold-blooded, premeditated and so on, that actually she lost her mind, did this despicable crime and she'd be incarcerated in some institution for many, many years but not convicted of first-degree murder because, as it turned out, 11 of the jurors just wouldn't accept that's what happened.

1:32:04Really? Is that what you think, Piers? Because I have been listening very carefully to what the jurors are now unbundling. One of them said, well, we had to do not guilty by reason of insanity. or else she wouldn't get the treatment she so desperately needs. In other words, we were worried about the sentencing. That juror also said she would never get therapy in prison. Irrelevant to guilt or innocence. They are not to concern themselves with sentencing. And so much more, another juror has just come out, the fourth juror, and says, maybe I still believe she's guilty. What? So my point is, yes.

1:32:47You're stating that, is it possible she was insane for 18 minutes? Because she Apple mapped her husband's trip on the errands she sent him on. She mapped how long he would be gone from the home. She called the CVS store manager to make sure they'd have pediatric Miralax. So the husband, Patrick Clancy, wouldn't call her in the middle of killing her children. But yet he still did call her. and she sounded perfectly normal, a tiny bit distracted because she was busy killing her children, but completely normal. That very morning, Piers, she had gone to Cora, her daughter's pediatrician, and interacted with nurses and doctors.

1:33:31And they said she was normal. She took the children to the park that afternoon, just a few hours before murdering them and sent pictures to her husband and her in-laws of them playing in the park. He spoke to her. He communicated with her. And she says, oh, yeah, by the way, when you go pick up the food, can you stop at CVS and get this Miralax? She had been researching that since 4 o 'clock, but she made it seem like an afterthought. So to you, that door slams, suddenly a voice comes in her ear and says, kill the children. And she says, oh, okay. She had never heard it before, never heard it again.

1:34:07that is not, in my experience, and I have tried, not guilty by reason of insanity before, how auditory hallucinations start. They normally start up to a year before, telling you to do this evil thing. You don't hear them for 18 minutes of your life and then never again.

1:34:24Piers Morgan:Nancy Grace, so good to talk to you. Can't think of anyone better qualified to talk about this kind of thing. Wait, we're over? Aren't you going to argue with me a little bit? Well, no, because I look at what happened here and my view is not that there's any doubt that she committed a despicable crime and killed her three children. But 11 of the jurors were prepared to acquit her of first-degree murder and one guy held out. And so the judge ended the trial as a mistrial. But if he hadn't held out, then she would have walked free. And my argument is... No. They were going for not guilty by reason of insanity, not acquittal.

1:35:07Piers Morgan:Right, so my point, though, is... NGBRI. I understand. But my point would have been, if they had charged her with something else, not first-degree murder, they might have all found her guilty. In other words, it may have been a cleaner piece... Such as what? Well, in England, we would call it manslaughter on grounds of diminished responsibility. There was that charge, Piers. Yeah. They were charged. the jury had that option. They had murder one, voluntary, involuntary, NGBRI, not guilty by reason of insanity, and not guilty, a walk. They had the alternative to go with voluntary and they didn't.

1:35:46And this morning we hear a juror say, I still think maybe she was guilty. It's just these jurors are all over the map. They should just stop talking.

1:35:54Piers Morgan:Well, I agree with that. We don't really get much. We don't get that in England. The jurors don't do media afterwards. It's a very interesting American thing, which is always fascinating and quite unsettling when you hear them. I've been listening to the same interviews as you have, and it's unsettling. Their stories are moving around all over the place, and actually I think in the end quite a few of them felt really sorry for her. I don't feel sorry for her. I think what she did was a despicable crime and snuffed out the lives of three young children. It's just I think the fact it's ended in a mistrial is extremely unfortunate, and there might have been a better way legally to handle this.

1:36:28It is. But one more thing, Piers, is in America, as you well know, because you've covered so many cases here, intent. Intent to commit a crime can be formed in the twinkling of a moment, the blink of the eye. The time it takes me to pull a gun and put a gun and pull the trigger is enough time under our jurisprudence to prove intent. It does not require a long, drawn-out plan, such as poisoning Piers Morgan with a little bit of arsenic every day until he kills over six months from now. It can be formed just like that. In the time she slams the door behind her husband, one hour later, he comes back.

1:37:01All of his children are dead. He comes to her. She says, I tried to kill myself. She didn't mention the children. When she comes out of it at the hospital, her first words, some of them are, do I need a lawyer? And I need to call Patrick and see where we stand. Not anything about the children. That's disturbing. And that was no longer under the influence of the voice.

1:37:27Piers Morgan:Nancy, great to talk to you. Thank you very much indeed for coming on. Don't leave us along next time. Likewise. Please invite me back. Bye, buddy. I'm a bit concerned you're giving my team ideas about arsenic in my tea, so I'm just going to go and change my mug.

1:37:44Piers Morgan:OK. Bye, Piers. Great to see you. Piers Morgan on Sensor is proudly independent. The only boss around here is me. If you enjoy our show, we ask for only one simple thing. Hit subscribe on YouTube and follow Piers Morgan Uncensored on Spotify and Apple Podcasts. And in return, we will continue our mission to inform, irritate and entertain. And we'll do it all for free. Independent, uncensored media has never been more critical and we couldn't do it without you.

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