"Flaming HYPOCRITE!" Linehan Arrest For Anti-Trans Posts & Free Speech Feat. Riley Gaines

22:03Piers Morgan:He does do that a lot. ..and cancellation. He has become the poster boy for this stuff for many years. It's ruined his life, it ruined his marriage, it ruined his career. And at the core of his argument was that biological men who identify as trans women should not be in women's spaces. And I agree with him. And Malcolm Gladwell agrees with him. And Wiley Gaines agrees with him. Now, we have... Can I jump in? I was going to bring in Blair, because Blair, you're a YouTube commentator, but you're also... You're trans. What do you think about this? I mean, were you offended by Graham Lenehan's tweets?

22:38Not at all. First of all, I have to say that it was fascinating. listening to you guys talk about free speech as a concept, like as Brits. Coming from an American, you know, when she said that she didn't know that free speech covered offensive speech, that's absolutely what it covers. That's the most important part of what it covers. That's not what I said. And what did you say exactly then? I said that I wasn't aware that it was only people who have particular bigoted views who are protected by the notion of free speech. The notion of free speech should protect...

23:09Piers Morgan:Well, I don't think that's how it's being applied because he was arrested. No-one's argued that. He was arrested, so clearly that's not how it's being applied. The actual point of free speech is you have to tolerate and allow people to say things you don't like. That is the point of free speech. 100%. Unless you're actually... And as far as Graham's... Unless you're actually inciting a crime. And nobody could have read that Graham's tweet and not thought he was just cracking a rather crass joke. I think a lot of people did think that. No, if anything... Well, Blair's a trans woman. Why don't we let her answer?

23:36I'm also transgender. I know. I'm...

23:39Piers Morgan:Go ahead. I'm also offended. Which trans are you? I'm non-binary. What does that mean? I'm a non-binary person. I use they, them, person. Sorry, are we going to spend... Do we really want to spend the rest of this discussing my personal gender journey? You're the one who mentioned it. I didn't even know. Now you know. That's a nightmare. OK, so now I know. I'm just asking you what that means. Do you really want to discuss this? You raised the subject of yourself being trans. I'm simply asking what does that... Can I finish my point? It's always a non-binary person. It's actually really interesting.

24:08Piers Morgan:It's really interesting to me. You raised it, not me. I didn't even know. So now you've raised it. What does that actually mean? What do you mean you're non-binary? Are you really, really just going to... Can you explain it? Are you going to cut Blair off now? I'm just asking you to explain it. I'll come back to Blair in a moment. Well, you were the one that cut me off, sis, but I will say that... Hang on one second, Blair, Blair. Sorry, Blair, wait one second. I just want to ask, what do you mean by non-binary? When I say I'm non-binary, I'm expressing my identity in a way that I have a right to do.

24:40I'm sorry?

24:41Piers Morgan:What's your sexuality? My sexuality. This doesn't have anything to do with my sexuality. Actually, the UK government now says that people are male or female. The British Prime Minister says people are male or female. I don't think the UK government should be... should have the final say on how I express myself... Well, they determine the laws of the country. I'm just curious what you mean by non-binary. What does that mean? I'm curious. Well, firstly... What are your pronouns? Say them. What does that mean? There's only one of you. What does they, them... Actually, they, them has been... The collective they has been used to refer to individual people for centuries and still is.

25:13So, I mean, if you don't understand basic grammar, that's on you. I think you do.

25:17Piers Morgan:I don't understand... I've got to be honest with you, I don't understand the concept of what non-binary means or why you would use a... Neither do I, and I'm trans. Neither do I. ..or why you would use a plural pronoun to describe a singular person. To me, this is the problem with the whole woke thing. It's inexplicable. Nobody really knows what it means. I don't know what you mean by non-binary they them. Is one of you sitting here and you look to me female? You're a female? OK. Are you a female? If you don't understand what non-binary means... Are you a female? If you don't understand what non-binary means...

25:45I don't. Then I'm not sure you're in a position to lead a debate. So just tell me. I'm sorry. But if you can't explain it in simple language, then... What is it? What's the point?

25:55Piers Morgan:Explain what non-binary is. Because I can tell you exactly what being a transsexual is. It means that my gender identity is something other than man or woman. I'm a non-binary individual. But you accept you're a female? I don't think that I'm here to discuss the contents of my... You raised this whole thing. I didn't mention anything about what you were. You did. You said, I'm trans. This has really become uncomfortably personal. Has it? You said it, not me. If you think this is uncomfortably personal, try undressing in a locker room with a 6 '4 naked man. Right, exactly. That's the point of this.

26:29Piers Morgan:It's like, what is uncomfortable. We're having a conversation here and I'm slightly offended because no one asked me my pronouns. Exactly. I think we should get rid of all pronouns. I think they're ridiculous. Blair, let me bring Blair let me bring Blair. Be very patient, Blair. Over to you. You're a trans woman. So let's get back to you. You weren't offended by what Graham Lenehan said, no? No, I'm offended by the phrase arrested for tweets. You know, as an American, before anything else, the idea that that's something that's happening over there is scary considering oftentimes what happens there is only a couple years off from happening here, as is the trans kid issue, which is something I've stood against since the beginning.

27:08You guys are sort of the canary in the coal mine as far as what laws are coming here. And it really makes me value the free speech that we do have here and how, you know, even the most uneducated American typically knows that free speech does cover offensive speech. And for me, I'm disgusted that trans Trans is used by the state as a means to bully people and clamp down on free speech. Free speech is infinitely more important to me than anything to do with trans and certainly non-binary. I'm in the same camp. I don't even know what it means. And for me, you know, I don't know if any other trans people have like publicly stood up for Graham, but I'll do it.

27:44I don't really know much about him. My understanding is he's much more famous across the pond, so I don't know. But I saw the tweets and the closest thing to inciting violence was the joke, like you said, kicking someone in the balls. And so it's kind of like it's scary that this conversation is even happening and trans people are being used as this weapon against people. Like I never asked for that. I feel like here in America, I see it all the time. I feel like there's constantly new laws, new social codes being imposed on people that I didn't ask for as a trans person. no trans people I know ask for that, but it will always be a woman, you know, unfortunately sitting up under a camera calling herself non-binary, trying to advocate for things that should be in place that I supposedly am supposed to be grateful for and that protects me.

28:31But also, I think an interesting point... Which actually just incite more hatred against trans people.

28:35Piers Morgan:Well, and that, I think, is a concern. And, Laurie, I would say to you, I don't give a damn what you want to identify as, genuinely. I don't care. And if you want to use pronouns for yourself, absolutely fine. The problem I have and what I've had in the last few years is me being ordered to say things like they them, which I find preposterous, or me not being able to ask you, what is non-binary? Are you professing to be offended? I don't mind you identifying as all this. I never said I was offended. Please stop putting words in my mouth. You did. You said I'm feeling really uncomfortable. I said it was uncomfortably personal.

29:05I didn't say I was offended.

29:06Piers Morgan:You raised the issue of your transgenderism. I didn't. I didn't even know you were transgender. Honestly. I actually had a conversation with your producers before. I didn't know. I'm just telling you what I knew. I didn't know. I knew Blair was. I didn't know you were. But my point is, though, I don't care. You can identify as anything you want. The debate here is twofold for me. One is that Graham Lenehan has said some comedic stuff that some people find offensive, other people laugh at, and he's now been treated like a serious criminal and being arrested. I think that's an abuse of his free speech rights, which shames my country.

29:38Piers Morgan:And secondly, I just think on this whole issue of transgenderism, I look at what Malcolm Gladwell said, and I do wonder how many people now feel that they were bullied and threatened by the trans lobby into not expressing an honestly held opinion about this issue. And that, again, is an infringement of their free speech, because they were being bullied and threatened and cancelled, like Gremlin and others, into not being allowed to say what they actually thought. And I think that's wrong. Okay, so you think there's no distinction between the state actually intervening, the police intervening to police people's tweets, which I'm really not comfortable with, honestly, since you asked, and people being criticised on the internet.

30:18You think that people shouldn't criticise people for saying transphobic things on the internet? Because that's bullying.

30:23Piers Morgan:Well, it depends what you think is transphobic. You see, the argument Malcolm Gladwell, and I think Lionel made in others, and I saw it many times, J.K. Rowling's a good example, I don't think J.K. Rowling's remotely transphobic. I'm certainly not. I want trans people to have exactly the same rights as me. But my problem is where the trans activists wanted to erode women's rights in the process of promoting trans rights.

31:07Piers Morgan:And don't just take their word for it. Here are just a few of their success stories. England football legend Michael Owen lost£40. Robbie, the face of AFTV, dropped over£100. Linda, a top laurel firm executive, lost£50. And Anita, an immigration lawyer, shed£60. To watch their full stories and find out more, scan the QR code on your screen or visit OxfordNatural.com slash peers. And here's the best part. Use the code PEERS, P-I-E-R-S, and get 70 % off your first order. Get 70 % off with the promo code PEERS. Let me bring in Dr Helen Webley here. What did you think about Graham Linehan's tweets?

31:51Well, you called them moderately offensive to some. I think to the trans community at large, Graham Linehan has been exceptionally offensive. And when we talk about inciting hatred, The trans community are four times as likely to be the victim of a violent crime than cisgender people. And that is increasing. And it has increased over the last decade that your other guest was talking about. And so we have a problem. And you call it free speech. But is it free speech when, for example, he is saying that call the cops, because actually you call the cops when someone's committed a crime. So he's inferring that transgender women in a women's toilet have committed a crime, which they haven't.

32:37He's talking about encouraging people to punch them in the balls, which you find amusing, but it's not. Again, it's encouraging violence. So just to be clear... OK, Dr Werber, just to be clear... It's not acceptable online or offline. Just to be clear, though,

32:52Piers Morgan:so you don't think anyone should post stuff which is potentially encouraging violence? It's the long history. He's been doing this for eight years or more. Hang on, Dr Webley. Let me just ask a simple question. As a general principle, that's all I'm asking, do you think it's wrong that people should not incite violence on social media? Is that what you're saying? The general principle that we're very clear on in the United Kingdom is that minority groups, and they're listed, people with a disability, sexuality, race, religion, transgender identities. Inciting hatred against that minority... No, no, that wasn't my question.

33:35Piers Morgan:My question was whether you felt that people should be allowed to incite violence on social media. Towards a minority group, absolutely not. So you can incite violence against other people? What about everyone else? You can incite violence against other people. So you're only protected from violence if you're in a minority group. The law... I don't want it. I'm going to give that back to you, man. Sorry, hang on, don't all talk. Don't all talk, I've got this. I've got this. Dr Webley, it's not the law. The law protects everybody, minority and majority groups, from threats and incitement of violence.

34:09Piers Morgan:And the reason I'm asking you, and you probably are ahead of me here, aren't you? Because yesterday, in the wake of Graham Linehan's arrest, you posted this. Let this be a sage warning to those who think it's OK to have views that are hateful towards trans people. your time is coming. And you had some emojis. A clock, an ambulance and a coffin. Well, actually, Pierce, it's a police car, so not an ambulance. But the coffin... And a coffin. Yeah, well, if you want me to say or not... So you want Graham Lennon dead, do you? That coffin signifies the end of this behaviour is coming. The end of this...

34:46Piers Morgan:No, it doesn't actually. So your time is coming. clock, police ambulance and a coffin emoji. Well, you realise Graham could say this by... Excuse me, but I haven't answered my question. Dr Weverly, if you don't mind me saying, I think you're a flaming hypocrite because you are clearly inciting violence and, in fact, that's a clear demonstrative death threat against Graham and then. You're urging your followers, your time is coming towards people like him, followed by a clock, and you say it's a police car, and a coffin emoji. So, if you don't mind, I won't take any lectures about language towards minority groups, as you put it, who seem to be so protected, but nobody else is from threats of violence and stuff, because you're literally wanting him dead.

35:33I think you'd say... Hang on, I didn't ask you. I asked Dr Weberle. I'm a doctor. I don't want anybody dead. You literally posted a coffin. What I want the death of... You posted a coffin. This is terrible. Your time is coming. that we have in the United Kingdom and further afield... Yeah, I think it is terrible, but I think your own behaviour

35:51Piers Morgan:is terrible, and therefore you are a hypocrite, aren't you? Well, you've said that before, and it didn't rile me last time. You can say it again if you like. It didn't rile you, but everyone agreed with me. If you were talking about the movement, you would say the time is coming. You were referring to a specific person when you say your. That is like a possessive, like, pronoun there. Your time is coming. I know we... I'm at the pronouns... I'm going to read it to you. I don't know whether you've got it in front of you or not. To all those, all those who think it's okay to have views, okay? Those views are coming to an end, and that time is coming to an end.

36:27And I am absolutely delighted that the police have taken action against somebody who is blatantly transphobic. So should they take action against you? What about the dissenters at the Pride protests who call to kill all turfs? I'm looking at a sign right now. It says every time you punch a turf, a trans kid gets more rights. Would you say this person should be met with armed guards at their front door as well? I don't know who that is. I don't think anything like that. Let me explain what that was about.

36:56Piers Morgan:Hang on. Let me explain what that was about. There was a complaint in Scotland after a sign calling for TERFs, trans-exclusionary radical feminists, which is a ridiculous phrase anyway, to be decapitated. That means have their heads cut off. This was at a pro-transgender rights rally. So the question, Dr Webley, which Riley is rightly asking, is presumably all of those people carrying that placard and laughing with it should all be arrested now for inciting hatred and violence. Should they or not? I don't think inciting violence against any group, whether they are a TERF group or a transgender group, is acceptable behaviour.

37:36What's worse, do you think, decapitating somebody

37:38Piers Morgan:or punching them in the balls? I don't think either is acceptable. Which one's worse? Which one is worse, do you think? Which one's worse? I'm not putting any store on which one. Well, you're a doctor. You should know what is potentially more harmful. Severing somebody's head or punching them in the balls. As a doctor, give me your medical opinion. You're not going out punching anybody or decapitating anybody. From a medical perspective, what is more dangerous, punching someone in the balls or decapitating their head? Well, from my medical experience, I would suggest that decapitating loss, but I don't really think that's...

38:12OK, good.

38:12Piers Morgan:So we're agreed that they should all be arrested by five armed police each, yeah? The armed police, you can say that, right? But I don't know whether you've been through Heathrow. They carry arms in Heathrow. I don't think that they really had the guns for... Actually, there are lots of unarmed policemen at Heathrow too. There's a completely spurious argument. There are many unarmed police at Heathrow. I've seen them, I've spoken to them, and there are armed police who are normally called because people are terrorists, not because they cracked a joke on Twitter. Let me bring Lionel back in. Lionel, my kind of point about all this, there's a lot of hypocrisy.

38:44Piers Morgan:There's a lot of hypocrisy, by the way, on both sides. And there are transphobic people who genuinely hate trans people. But there are people like Riley, like me, who just feel that the trans activism has eroded women's rights to the point where it had to be stopped. And that actually it eroded women's rights to fairness, equality and safety. How big a moment do you think this Graham Linaher moment is? Because I've been struck by the outpouring of support he's had, which he certainly hasn't had in the past, that the overreach by the state here about his right to have an opinion has now struck a chord with people in Britain who are just like, no, we're done with this.

39:28I have to say all the response I've seen with very tiny exceptions, usually from activists, has been horrified. And that is also in the United States. In some ways, the response in the United States has been even more powerful because it's such a violation of American principles. And these are principles that we got from England, from the United Kingdom. We didn't make up freedom of speech. The British did. Yeah. And therefore, Americans are really upset to see our inheritance being corrupted and, in fact, destroyed. I mean, the United States, yes, does have a First Amendment for freedom of speech, and the UK does not.

40:22So freedom of speech has never been exactly codified in the UK. And unfortunately, that has made it possible for the law to violate the UK law, to violate the prime principle of liberal democracy. And that is equality under the law, that the law is equally applied to a prime minister and a homeless person on the street. Right. We all obey the same laws. Not in the UK anymore. this whole idea of having protected characteristics means that there are special laws for special people. Yeah. And that's the beginning of the end.

41:02Piers Morgan:I totally agree. Let me bring Blair back in. Blair, I mean, you touched on something, and I think it's really important, that most, like, I wouldn't say the word average trans people, because I don't think anyone's average, actually. But, you know, a lot of trans people that I happen to have talked to or discussed this with, that they're not interested in this kind of trans war against women's rights. They think it's put back trans rights. They think it's made trans people the subject of more mockery. It's made their lives, you know, in some cases intolerable because people laugh at them all the time because of this nonsense.

41:38Piers Morgan:Do you think we're going through a corrective period now where hopefully out of this trans people can be let to just get on with their lives, hopefully equally, fairly, safely, but not at the expense of an erosion of women's rights? 100%. I think people are trying to navigate that nuance and understand we're all here together and have to figure out how to coexist. And the idea that the trans movement as a political movement was going to be able to get away with sex changes for children, men beating up women in women's sports, all the unfairness that people like Riley and other female athletes have come forward to talk about, The idea that there was never going to be any sort of swinging back the pendulum from that.

42:22I mean, I've been warning against that for people my entire career saying these are all nonsensical positions. Nobody can meet these expectations. If the expectation to not be considered transphobic is things like child sex changes with men and women's sports. No one is no one's going to meet you there. And I also have to say, you know, no offense to the two women on the panel who are on the other side of this. But with allies like you guys, who even needs transphobes? Who needs anti-trans people? Who needs anyone who hates trans people? The sorts of positions that you guys hold are the exact reason why there is a whiplash, a backlash against trans people.

42:59It's these nonsensical, you know, completely unprincipled positions. I mean, the idea that you guys can't even say, OK, it's not cool that like armed cops arrested somebody for tweets. I did say that. I said exactly that. OK, OK, but you couched it with, you know, being very vague about... No, I said directly, and I will say it again, it is not OK.

43:19Piers Morgan:OK, but let me ask you this then, Laurie, because NBC News in America issued a correction for using the wrong pronoun in identifying the mass shooter who murdered two children and wounded many more during a mass at a Catholic school in Minneapolis. In an article on Friday, NBC News initially used male pronouns to detail how the killer, who was born male and petitioned for a name change in 2019, successfully amassed an arsenal of guns in the years before the attack. Why do we give a monkey's cuss about this person's pronouns when that person has allegedly gone outside of Catholic church and tried to murder as many children as they pray as they could possibly do?

44:05Hey, it's Kelly Rowland. You may not know this, but I have eczema, So I get how it can steal your time. But why let eczema take over when you can talk to your doctor about eczema? Eczema, LBKZ, a 250 milligram per two milliliter injection, is a prescription medicine used to treat adults and children 12 years of age and older who weigh at least 88 pounds or 40 kilograms with moderate to severe eczema. Also called atopic dermatitis that is not well controlled with prescription therapies used on the skin or topicals or who cannot use topical therapies, eczema can be used with or without topical corticosteroids.

44:39Don't use if you are allergic to EpGliss. Allergic reactions can occur that can be severe. Eye problems can occur. Tell your doctor if you have new or worsening eye problems. You should not receive a live vaccine when treated with EpGliss. Before starting EpGliss, tell your doctor if you have a parasitic infection. Paid partnership with Lilly. Respect your time. Ask your doctor about EpGliss and visit epgliss.com or call 1-800-LILLY-RX or 1-800-545-5979. Well, I believe that holding any group collectively responsible for the actual crimes that one member, the horrible crimes that one member of that group commits or anything any member of that group might do in the future, I think that is the essence of prejudice.

45:23I think transgender people are increasingly all treated as... So was it correct for NBC News to apologise

45:29Piers Morgan:for using the wrong pronoun about this mass shooter? I honestly haven't been following this story. I'm not as online as you. The person identified as... The person who the mass shooter identified as a trans woman, right? And was apparently misgendered by NBC News. My point is, have we not moved to a place where this is just garbage? Where a major news network has to issue a public apology for getting a personal pronoun wrong for somebody who decided they want to identify in a different way? I think it's ludicrous. Riley? It's worse than that. It's getting personal pronoun right. I mean, I actually did my spectator column on this.

46:12This tradition and the BBC follows it, as well as the New York Times, of using people's so-called preferred pronouns, even in instances where they are mass murderers, is, you know, it's cloaked in deference. It's supposedly being nice to them. But it's worse than being nice. It is implicitly an endorsement of transgender ideology so that it means, oh, we're not going to acknowledge this person's real biological sex. We're going to defer to their delusion. And that is to embrace an entire way of thinking which is unhinged and separated from reality. And so it's not a neutral thing to do, and it's not just a nice thing to do.

47:02And the same thing happened with NPR when they were interviewing Senator Amy Klobuchar. And she referred to this deranged killer as he, and the interviewer corrected her and said, we don't know the sex he is. We we we're not sure. Well, actually, we were very sure it was already on the record that that he was born male. And one of the things that one of my problems with this whole movement is the way that it is imposing requirements on us to, you know, in using the pronouns that this person prefers, that we are being forced to lie. It is, you know, you look at this person, he's a man, but you're required, this is compelled speech, as Jordan Peterson would point out, you're required to call him a woman, and you will be arrested, you will get police at your door in the UK if you observe biological reality in public.

48:15Piers Morgan:Yeah. Dr Wembley... This is extremely offensive. I just want to put a line... It is extremely... I'm glad you agree. These views are extremely offensive. I'm glad you agree. It is, yeah. I don't care. I agree. I agree. You mean it's offensive that NBC News felt the need to apologize to an alleged mass shooter? I think it's offensive that one of your guests is really openly denying the existence of people who reassign their gender. Okay, what about the topic, though? What about the topic, though? They're not being respectful of that person's gender identity and their pronouns. Yeah, Riley. I just want to put a line in the sand to say that I find that extremely offensive.

48:51Oh, my God. And many people...

48:52Piers Morgan:Do you find shooting lots of children in a church offensive or not? That crime is something that that person did. And like you were saying at the beginning of your program, we have alleged and we have, you know, we have court cases to come. So I think we need to apply the same standards. Sure, I just did. Denying transgender identities is a very offensive thing to do. And this is... Oh, my God, we're talking about kids being murdered and we're talking about misgendering being offensive. This is the disgusting... Do you believe that the shooter in this case is a victim? Oh, for goodness sake. Sorry?

49:26No one believes that. Sorry? Well, let's... Some people do. Some people do. Do you believe that the shooter in this case is a victim? That's stupid. Hold on. Hold on. Just... It's really simple. Yes or no. Do you believe the shooter in this case is a victim? A victim of what? A victim of what? Sorry. Just a victim in general. I would like to hear your thoughts on this. You need to be a little bit more specific. This isn't a yes or no answer until you give me a victim. Do you think that victimization ultimately drove someone to commit this crime? I have no idea why that person that we think committed that crime committed that crime.

50:04I'm looking at a tweet that you put out right here, and it says, shame on anyone centering the gender identity of the person who shot people dead in Minneapolis. The focus should be on what drives someone to such horror, the abuse, the hate, and the victimization. Ask yourself, have you abused, hated, or victimized? That feels like you are trying to guilt trip someone like me into believing that I have blood on my hands because this person went out and shot a bunch of kids. And I will not be victimized or made to believe that I am a morally guilted person in this case because of the crime of what someone else did.

50:39That's a tweet that you thought, Dr. Beblin. Nobody thinks you are. Nobody's saying that. What she just said in her tweet is, ask yourself, have you abused, hated, or victimized? Yeah, yeah. And I'm a doctor, and I've met many, many people who have been abused and victimized and harassed. And it causes difficulties. Sorry? Sorry? You said you're a doctor. It's the third time you've said that. If that's the qualifications to speak on a certain subject, then guess what? I'm a woman. That would disqualify, I mean, people from this panel, peers from talking about this subject. Sorry, I thought you were asking me about the effects of bias, hatred, harassment, prejudice on the human psychology, which is what my tweet was about.

51:21And yes, they hurt, they cause pain, and sometimes they cause severe end result. But you don't even know if, first of all... Well, let me just look. We've run this again, guys. You don't even know if that's the case. You're inventing a narrative about this person before they did what they did, that it involved some sort of bullying. And even if so, in what world were these young Catholic children the perpetrators of that? Absolutely not. Absolutely not.

51:47Piers Morgan:Okay, look, we run out of time. Well, then what is the implication of your post? Because it's not making sense, so make it make sense. It sounded like you were making a victim out of the shooter. I'll explain. The implication of my post is that people who incite hatred, incite violence, harass, show bias, prejudice, they have effects. It hurts. And at the moment, which is the topic we're talking about, is it hurts transgender people, and that's not nice. OK, let me ask... But how is that even on your mind? Hang on, hang on. Hang on. Hang on. Unlike everybody else on the panel, Laurie's been putting her hand up very politely, I have to say, and I have to recognise the inherent politeness in your activity on this panel.

52:30Piers Morgan:I've got a question, though. So is your position that anyone can identify as whatever they want? Yeah. Why not? And it has to be respected by everybody else? Well, I prefer that it was. It's good manners and being a basic, decent human being. So if I said my personal pronouns are hot, hotter, hottest? I would think you were silly, but sure. OK, well, that's a bit bigoted. But if you did know they were my pronouns, would you now feel compelled to call me that? I would probably struggle to keep a straight face, but sure. Because you think... If you really wanted that. Because you think it's ridiculous.

53:04Do you want that?

53:04Piers Morgan:Is it because you think it's ridiculous? Should I call you hot, hot? Well, you call yourself they then. Hang on. Is there any more or less ridiculous? I think people should be able to identify how they look. And I think we're here to discuss a serious... You were mocking my choice of personal pronouns, weren't you? Oh, is that actually your pronoun? Hot, hot. Yeah, it's in my Twitter bio. Hot, hot. Hot, hotter, hottest. Why are you laughing? No, no, no, I think that's great. It's funny. It's my pronouns. I think it's fantastic. You're openly mocking me. You see how easy it is to fall into this trap.

53:33Piers Morgan:My point being, the moment you go down... If you're offended, please, I'm really sorry. I'm not offended. Of course I'm not offended. It was a joke. The whole thing's a joke. But to me, this is the problem with the personal pronoun thing, is that it works right to the point that someone goes, oh, right, you can identify as anything you want. OK, I'm a giraffe and my pronouns are hot, hot, hottest. And people go, well, now you're being ridiculous. And I go, well, yeah, that's the problem, is that if you allow limitless self-identity, limitless personal pronouns, and you get offended when people don't call you by what you think you should be called, and it's mandated on people, that, in the end, has the opposite effect to what you think.

54:10Piers Morgan:It doesn't lead to more respect. It actually leads to more open mockery. It sounds like people here are very, very keen to be victims of, like, trans-bullying and trans-harassment. I'm not a victim of anything, ever. I don't think anybody here is a victim of that. Who is? I'm sorry. Who's a victim? I don't think anybody on this panel is a victim. How do you know? Actually, no, I don't know. Go ahead. That's an amazing presumption. Apparently the shooter is a victim, according to the doctor here. Well, isn't that just about the end? That is not what she said. That's not what she said. Nobody is defending that.

54:44That's what I heard, so maybe it could be, you know, re-communicating. It is reprehensible to deliberately misrepresent people who are just trying to say... All right, but Laurie, do you think NBC News

54:59Piers Morgan:should have issued a public apology for misgendering the mass shooter, who's now dead? I do not care and nobody does. Well, then why did they do it? I've got no idea! I've got work for NBC! Should they have been compelled to do it? I don't care! What's your view? I don't know. I think my lack of thinking that this is an important subject is my view. Fantastic. So you... My view is that we should... So you actually agree with me? You don't care about personal pronouns! I'm sorry, I just don't think this is the fixation. You seem to care when I question you calling yourself they them. You got very upset then.

55:32Piers Morgan:So my point is, if you don't care about personal pronouns, I'm with you. I care about the fact that kids got shot dead. That is important. Are you suggesting that I don't? No, I'm just saying that you cared about your own personal pronouns, but you don't care about this other person's fight. You think I should care about how a killer feels? I think you've got to be consistent. You either think personal pronouns... This is mad. This is absolutely mad. You either think personal pronouns are a sacrosanct thing and NBC News was right to be bullied and shamed into apologising for misgendering a mass shooter, or you don't.

56:00That's a nonsensical argument.

56:02Piers Morgan:No, no, it's completely logical. The logical is pronouns are either sacred or they don't matter at all. There's only two things. People should either be mandated to use them or not. NBC News only apologised, only apologised because people kicked up a fuss that they had misgendered a mass shooter. OK, look, what is happening here is that Mr Morgan is having a conversation with himself about... Actually, I'm having a conversation with millions of people. On one side you're saying that you're inventing people who are mandating and bullying you and then you're asking me whether or not I agree with them.

56:37I don't even need to be here because you've already decided what people like me think.

56:42Piers Morgan:I don't know what, well, we haven't even established what people like you are. Never mind what you think. I'm so sorry to confuse you, but people like me exist. There are hundreds and thousands of transgender people. You know what, Laurie? I respect you to live the life you want to live. Thank you. Just don't bully everybody else into using language. If you don't care, then stop telling people to use pronouns. Simple. Who have I bullied? Am I bullying you? I felt victimised, yeah, but I've got over it. I'm glad. Thank you for coming on. I appreciate it. And thank you to all my panellists. It's an interesting debate.

57:15Piers Morgan:Lots of nuances. As with all these debates, it's complicated. No one presents it as easy. But I do think the reaction to the Gremlin and fallout has been fascinating. You know, this is a guy who no one was supported a year ago, and now everyone is racing to support him, with a few exceptions, two of which are on my panel. But that's why we have people with different views on this show. Thank you all very much. We'll see. Piers Morgan Uncensored is proudly independent. The only boss around here is me. If you enjoy our show, we ask for only one simple thing. Hit subscribe on YouTube and follow Piers Morgan Uncensored on Spotify and Apple Podcasts.

57:53Piers Morgan:And in return, we will continue our mission to inform, irritate and entertain. And we'll do it all for free. Independent, uncensored media has never been more critical and we couldn't do it without you.