'FROZEN OUT By Ben Shapiro' Piers Morgan x Jeremy Boreing On Candace Owens, Tucker Carlson & Fuentes

0:00Ben Shapiro, fuck you and the midget horse that you rode in on. I say that on behalf of the world.

0:06Piers Morgan:Ben's a fantastic proponent for free speech. Where does that sit if you do criticize Israel? One can imagine that it's very difficult to hear nuance when nuance itself is being sort of weaponized as a way of masking actual anti-Semitism by so many. How best to deal with people like Nick Fuentes? What he's doing is actually very sophisticated. I'll watch every clip and laugh 90 % of the time.

0:36Piers Morgan:Well, love it or hate it, the fact is that social and digital media are now at the apex of pretty much all popular debates where opinions are formed, values are interrogated, and agendas are set. Kamala Harris diverted her plane to New York for a 90-second cameo on SNL. Donald Trump toured dozens of podcasts and spent three hours with Joe Rogan. You know which one became president. The Daily Wire was ahead of the game in harnessing the potential of digital media and the exodus from the mainstream media. The cost of its success is, of course, significant scrutiny. It's often accused of failing to live up to its own standards on things like free speech.

1:14Piers Morgan:Commentators like Tucker Carlson, and yes, Candace Owens, say it's on the opposite side of a battle for conservative values with an unhealthy appetite for Israel and war. Well, Jeremy Boren co-founded and ran The Daily Wire. He also hired Candace Owens. In a moment, he'll respond to that. But first, a quick reminder of his first and only previous appearance on Uncensored, where he found himself challenging Bassem Yusuf in a clip now viewed 24 million times. I think the sort of lie of the post-World War II, the post-war consensus lie, is that somehow war in which you kill a bunch of people and don't secure victory is morally superior to war where you do secure victory.

1:57I would say that the only way to morally justify a war is to win it. Otherwise, the very argument that brought you into the war, this enemy must be defeated, ends up being proven alive. How can you justify the killing in the West Bank where Hamas does not exist? And if the disproportionate response during all of these years have actually worked, what will be new this time that did not happen before. I just want to, that was my question.

2:27Piers Morgan:Well, I'm pleased to say that Jeremy Boring, the former Daily Wire CEO and director of the Pendragon Cycle, joins me now. Jeremy, welcome back. Good to be back and glad that you're back on your feet. Well, I actually, I'm not actually back on my feet. I'm still on crutches. Glad that you're back on the air. Yeah, I'm back on the airwaves, let's put it like that, which is certainly a step up from where I was last week. Interesting that your only other appearance, 23 million people watched that. In a way, that was the catalyst, actually, that show, because of the response on YouTube, for me to reach the conclusion you had reached many years before, obviously, with The Daily Wire, that the future is not conventional linear television, mainstream media, but that actually, through the medium of places like YouTube, that is where young people in particular are going in bigger and bigger numbers.

3:21Piers Morgan:So thank you for being part of that catalyst. You were at The Daily Wire, I think, was it how long in the end, for 11 years? Just 10 years, yeah. We founded the company in Southern California, actually in my pool house. Right, so I was going to ask you, because you managed to build a business, a billion-dollar business. And I've watched it with great admiration from afar. I've had lots of people from The Daily Wire come and go on Uncensored, obviously, including some who've left you, like Candice, and we'll come to that. When you started The Daily Wire, what was the sort of... What was the dream that you had in your head?

4:02Piers Morgan:Has it manifested how you hoped in your wildest dreams? Or in the end, did it become something perhaps you preferred it not to have become?

4:14Well, I think that, you know, when you start something like The Daily Wire, of course, you're going to make mistakes. Things aren't always going to go the way that you thought that they were going to go. I think we got a lot more hits than we had misses, though. When we first started the company, we saw the opportunity being afforded by emerging social media platforms to really help us get a message sort of around the traditional gatekeepers and directly to the people, a message that we thought needed to be expressed. We were all L.A. guys, so, of course, we also wanted to create culture, not just criticize culture.

4:45And we did all of those things over the decade that I was running the company alongside Caleb Robinson and in partnership with Ben Shapiro. So, yeah, I think I would have to say that we really achieved most of the things that we set out to achieve. And, of course, some of them we achieved beyond our wildest imagination. Of course, you couldn't have foreseen all of the mistakes either. But part of being an entrepreneur is being comfortable with the idea that you're going to make mistakes, that things aren't always going to go exactly according to plan or even according to plan at all. And you're going to have to react and pivot and make changes in the moment.

5:18And I think we successfully did that, too, which is why, as you say, we grew a billion dollars worth of revenue over that 10 years and deployed all of that money in pursuit of those fundamental values that we had when we first established the company.

5:31Piers Morgan:You've created some massive stars, or taken people on and made them much bigger stars, and people have come and go. Ben's still at the top of the pyramid, and we'll come to him. Candice Owens was one of the people that you brought into the Daily Wire family, and then she had a spectacular falling out with everyone, notably over Israel. What's your view of Candice? I mean, my view, for what it's worth, I've had her on uncensored many times. I know her a little bit away from the camera. She's unbelievably smart. She's a brilliant debater. She's compelling. She's great on camera, all of these things.

6:10Piers Morgan:But I've watched her in the last couple of years, drifting to a place where I really, really have reservations about whether she believes half the stuff that she's putting on her show, whether it's Brigitte Macron being a man or all the Charlie Kirk stuff or whatever it may be. I do think she's now gone down a path of deliberately promoting conspiracy theories for cash. What is your assessment? Well, the problem with trying to wield cynicism for clicks is that cynicism ultimately wields you. And I think that's true of a lot of the sort of mistakes that we make in life. We We always think that we're too clever for the sort of, you know, the sort of evil that exists in the world to ever touch us.

7:01I've asked Candace on two separate occasions what she actually believes. On both occasions, she said, I believe what the people believe. I am the voice of the people. And, of course, both times, I don't know what that means, Candace. I've come to understand, though, at least from my point of view, I think she's articulating the idea of audience capture and expressing it as a positive value. Does she actually believe the things that she's saying? I don't know. I do know that if you say things long enough, you come to believe them. The most convincing voice in the world is our own voice. To your point, though, Candace is a genuine superstar.

7:33I mean, she has it, the thing that we talk about in show business. She has it in spades. I've never met anybody with any more of it. The camera absolutely loves her. To your point, she's whip smart. When she's using those powers in service of the true and the good and the virtuous, I THINK THERE'S NOBODY BETTER. BUT LIKE YOU, I'M VERY CONCERNED ABOUT THE DIRECTION THAT SHE'S TAKING IT RIGHT NOW.

7:55Piers Morgan:WE 'VE GOT A LITTLE MASH-UP OF THINGS SHE SAID ABOUT THE DAILY WIRE AND ABOUT BEN. LET'S TAKE A LOOK AT THIS. I'M TERRY. THAT IS COMING FROM DAILY WIRE MANAGEMENT, DAILY WIRE COMMENTATORS, REGARDING THINGS THAT I 'VE SAID, POSITIONS THAT I HAVE OR JUST APPEARANCES THAT I AM MAKING. AND, YOU KNOW, I WOULD LIKE TO REALLY LEAVE THE DAILY WIRE IN the rear view mirror. Like when you break up with someone and you have a crazy ex, that was how it felt like being fired from the Daily Wire. Andrew Klavan of the Daily Wire released a one hour video essentially accusing me of many things, but referring to me as antisemitic, trying to link me to Nick Fuentes.

8:35This one is so fully off of the mother effing plantation. Truly Ben Shapiro, fuck you and the midget horse that you rode in on. And I say that on behalf of the world. What's your feeling when you hear that? Well, she says it on behalf of the world, so it must be true. Listen, it's funny to hear Candace, who will do literally now, you know, over 50 episodes on the Charlie Kirk assassination, talk about other people fixating. This is... It's ridiculous. Candace is very good at what she does. She makes very compelling television, and that's all you're seeing in those clips. Here we go again.

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10:07Piers Morgan:He was, you know, to his supporters, he took me down. And it became a big viral thing, and people keep sending it to me now and so on. I watched his rise then from a very young guy, very sort of firebrand, young conservative commentator to somebody who is one of the most dominant figures in this space in the world. There's no question about that. I have a lot of admiration for Ben. But he was coming on my show a lot when I was very pro-Israel's right to defend itself after October the 7th and we were texting each other quite regularly. But when I became more critical at the start of last year in particular and through last year about the scale of Israel's response and what I perceived to be the disproportionality and so on, he just stopped, A, stopped coming on and then stopped replying to any messages of mine, completely froze me out.

10:59Piers Morgan:And I've had no more contact with him. And so a little part of me is like Ben's, you know, he's brilliant and he's a fantastic proponent for free speech. but where does that sit if you do criticize Israel? I've never criticized Jewish people. I'm not remotely anti-Semitic. I think he probably knows that. But I do believe I have a right to criticize the Israeli government when they're waging a war of the kind they've been waging in Gaza. Now, regardless of whether you agree with me about that, it doesn't really matter. I'm surprised that he's cut me off like this and I don't really understand it other than he has a little bit of a blind spot about Israel when it comes to the free speech debate?

11:47Well, I think Ben's been a great champion of freedom of speech. Of course, Ben, as probably the most famous religious Jew on earth, has very strong opinions about Israel. And, you know, I can't speak to him not texting you back or appearing on the show during that period of time. and I haven't been in daily contact with Ben in the last 10 months because of leaving the Daily Wire and all the changes that have happened as a result of that. But I can say that I think one might understand why when so many voices in the media have gone so far in their, you know, quote unquote opposition to Israel, which was a very thin veneer on actual anti-Semitism.

12:31I think as time has gone on, we see what's behind that mask more and more from so many people in public life. One can imagine that it's very difficult to hear nuance when nuance itself is being sort of weaponized as a way of masking actual anti-Semitism by so many.

12:51Piers Morgan:But isn't that ultimately what the whole free speech debate comes down to? It's the ability to listen and tolerate people's views you don't like, even if you find them hateful. There is nothing I've ever said which could be remotely construed as anti-Semitic or any dislike or hatred of Jewish people. And he knows that. He really doesn't want to engage with me at all simply because I became more critical of the Israeli government. And I think that's inconsistent with his stance about free speech. Well, I don't think it's inconsistent with a broad support for free speech to not engage with people who say things that you don't like.

13:32Free speech says that you have the right to say it. It doesn't say that I have the obligation to continue to engage with you when you do say it. So I'd be careful about that. But then, of course, we're getting into fairly personal territory here where only Ben could speak for himself. I would only again point out that I think that over the last few years, a lot of people have said, I'm only criticizing Israel. Don't I have the right to criticize a foreign government? Which, of course, you do have the right to criticize a foreign government and your own government or any government. But because that was used as a kind of Trojan horse by so many who have since exposed real anti-Semitism, You know, one can imagine that if you were in the position of Ben Shapiro or other very prominent Jewish figures in the political debate, you know, that that would be a tough, a tough thing to hear when it's been weaponized by so many.

14:30Is that what he's doing? I don't know. Again, I can't, I can't speak to it.

14:32Piers Morgan:I don't expect you to speak for him about it. I was just curious because I know Candace fell out with him over the issue of Israel. I think she has said things which are certainly borderline could be construed as anti-Semitic. So I think it's a different situation. But I'll leave her to have that argument with him. Did you fall out with Ben at all personally towards the end?

14:57Well, certainly neither of us set out to see this kind of separation, right? When you get married, you don't think too much about divorce. And Ben and I had a long and very productive partnership over the last 15 years, I mean, really going back before The Daily Wire. I was on the phone with Ben as he walked out of the studio from that infamous, when he handed you the Constitution, that infamous appearance that you referenced a little bit ago. So we had a long partnership. And when something like that comes to an end, of course it's going to leave a mark. But we fought in a lot of battles together.

15:31We were in the trenches alongside one another for a long time. I think that probably creates a bond that isn't easily broken. As I like to say, if Ben ever needs a kidney, I've got one. I suppose if Caleb needs a kidney, I've got two. If they need a kidney at the same time, they'll have to duke it out because I'm keeping one for myself.

15:50Piers Morgan:When did you last talk to Ben? Ben sent me a message on the day that Charlie Kirk was shot. Obviously, Ben and I met Charlie at the same time, at the same event, at the Breakers in Florida when Charlie was a teenager. So we both had a very long relationship with Charlie. And Ben sent me a very kind message, just checking on me and the kind of things that would be expressed between two brothers in a moment like that. One of Candace Owens' accusations has been that Ben was jealous of Charlie Kirk's success and influence. and he wanted to bring down the Turning Point organization, you would be better placed than most to know if that was true.

16:33Piers Morgan:What do you say to that? No. Well, listen, in public life, we all have little rivalries at times and little jealousies at times. There were times when I got on the wrong side of Charlie or Charlie got on the wrong side of me or where any of us in the space for whom that may be true. But to say that Ben was engaged in a project to take down TPUSA that's absurd. Ben and Charlie had a very lengthy relationship. You know, one of Charlie's last guests on his show was Ben Shapiro. And I think that's just indicative of the long relationship that they had. And for the, you know, as far as I ever saw, and I think I had a lot of transparency into it, Charlie would stop by anytime he was in Nashville and check on us at the Daily Wire.

17:21So I don't think there's any truth to that.

17:26Piers Morgan:It's very interesting to be watching from the sidelines, if you like, about how it always used to be the case, the conservative right in America would line up full square behind Israel, for example. But now that's not the case. Now you see people like Tucker Carlson, you see Candace, you see Dave Smith, you see a very outspoken against Israel. And you're seeing a real split, I guess, there. What do you make of that? Have you noticed this? Do you feel concerned about it? What's your feel about the way this has gone? Well, I'd be careful not to conflate Candace Owens, who is sort of the queen of the grift industrial complex, with Tucker Carlson, who, like him or leave him, is engaged in an actual political project.

18:18You know, as far as I can tell, Tucker is trying to create a new American majority out of a sort of amalgamation of left-wing economic populism on the one hand and right-wing social populism on the other. He's actively engaged behind the scenes at the White House and staffing decisions. He wields his influence to try to effectuate a political end. I happen to disagree vehemently with him about what I perceive to be the political good. but at least what he's doing is fundamentally political. I don't think what Candace is doing is fundamentally political at all. I think that she's engaged in a kind of self-aggrandizement and click chasing, audience capture, economic, cynical economic play.

19:01I don't perceive that about Tucker.

19:05Piers Morgan:How best to deal with people like Nick Fuentes? You know, I had him on the show recently. I think five, six million people watched it. There's no doubt there's a huge interest in this guy. I think I challenged him pretty robustly over all his views. But, you know, his technique was to kind of brazenly just admit most of it. Yeah, I'm a racist. Yeah, I'm this. To mock the Holocaust and so on and so on. You know, it's quite hard to have a serious conversation with somebody that does that kind of thing. His groipers, his followers loved it, of course. Nobody ends up, you know, they just declare total all-out victory, whatever.

19:42Piers Morgan:I didn't feel I got much out of it, to be honest with you. But, you know, people like him are increasingly popular. I know that you had quite strong views about him. I don't think he appeared at The Daily Wire, certainly not in recent years. What's the best way to handle people like that, who are phenomena out there? If you don't platform them, they go unchallenged. If you do, they kind of use it to fuel themselves and become ever more popular. What's the best way, do you think, to handle this? Small businesses drive our economy, but securing capital is a constant struggle. Of the 36 million small businesses in the United States, over 70 % report needing additional capital at least once per year.

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21:07Piers Morgan:Again, that's cardiff.co slash peers. Real growth, vast funding. Well, I do think that it's a flaw in the immune system of popular media that we don't have good tools to deal with people who aren't playing by any sort of rules that we identify. You know, I think The Daily Wire's position during my tenure was to ignore Nick Fuentes and not have him, not to give him any exposure. The problem is, of course, that Nick engages in enormous amounts of irony. You know, his fans understand the plan. They trust the plan. They don't even see the same interview that your average audience member sees. When they watch you talk to Nick Fuentes, it might as well be a completely different show that they're watching because Nick isn't having the surface level conversation.

22:04What he's doing is actually very sophisticated. It's incredibly funny. I mean, I have to admit, I have to mute Nick on social media because I'll watch every clip and laugh 90 % of the time. He's very, very talented. And if you see what he's doing, listen, I despise what he's doing. Again, I think that he's also engaged in a true political project. And so I don't want to completely, I don't want to discount him or be dismissive of him. I think that what Nick Fuentes is doing will have actual political resonance for the rest of our lives. And I think it's a thing that has to be opposed. And as someone on the right, I believe that it's my job to oppose it.

22:42But I don't think that it does any good to engage in conversation with him as though the conversation is of the sort that you and I are having right now, where we're just exchanging ideas in good faith. Nick Fuentes is not exchanging ideas with you in good faith. When you have a conversation with him, you are a prop. And he is wielding you to make all the jokes and get in all the points that he's hoping to get in for his very select initiated audience.