"He Did Everything To SMEAR" Epstein's Mearsheimer Plot Revealed in Leaks | With Alan Dershowitz

0:00When you finally find your thing, you want the whole world to know about that thing. So you use a thing called Canva to make it an even bigger and better thing. Whether you want to create flyers for that thing, make presentations for that thing, or design merch for that thing, you can do anything. So people can see your thing, feel your thing, love your thing. The next thing you know, it's a thing. Canva, the thing that makes anything a thing. It's hard to deny that the lobby goes to enormous lengths to skew American foreign policy in a pro-Israel way. This includes people like Alan Dershowitz who work overtime to suppress any discourse that's critical of Israel, critical of the U.S.-Israeli relationship, or critical of the lobby.

0:52Piers Morgan:I'm about to speak to Alan Dershowitz. Do you have any message for him? He'll know exactly what to say. I am not a lobbyist for Israel. I'm not a member of the Mossad. I am an American, a loyal American. You're very aware there have been these ongoing rumours about Epstein. Having an exchange with somebody who I knew and somebody who was pro-Israel doesn't prove either that I did anything wrong or that he had a connection with the Mossad. Almost 20 years ago, John Mearsheimer published a paper and led up a book called the Israel Lobby and US Foreign Policy. It's now considered to be a seminal text on the outsized impact of lobbyists and think tanks who skew US foreign policy in Israel's national interest and not their own.

1:37Piers Morgan:Professor Mearsheimer and his co-author were, unusually, the two unassuming academics, hit with a barrage of negative media stories and accusations of anti-Semitism. Leaked emails now show that one of the people colluding over these talking points to discredit John Mearsheimer was, along with his lawyer Alan Dershowitz, none other than Jeffrey Epstein. The question, of course, is why? Well, for his side of the story and what he believes Epstein's motives were, his renowned international relations scholar, Professor John Mierschuk. Professor Mierschuk, welcome back to Uncensored. Glad to be here as always, Piers.

2:12Piers Morgan:I'm going to get to what I was just referring to in that intro in a few moments. But first of all, just a couple of things I wanted to discuss with you. First of all, this almost unprecedented request by Prime Minister Netanyahu to his own president, Isaac Herzog, for a full pardon involving these bribery and fraud charges that have been brought against him for which he's been standing trial, albeit with multiple pauses because of the ongoing war in Gaza. What do you make of this? Well, I think that Netanyahu faces two big problems. One is a national commission that looks into who's responsible for October 7th, and he wants to avoid that like the plague.

3:00And then there's this trial that's going on where there is a lot of evidence that he's guilty, and he wants to shut that down for obvious reasons. And President Trump has on a number of occasions said that Netanyahu should be pardoned. And by the way, he's making the argument that he should be pardoned before he's even found guilty. And now the president of Israel himself, Isaac Herzog, has been asked to pardon Netanyahu. Netanyahu. And I read Herzog's statement on the issue, and I think he understands that if he pardons Netanyahu, he is playing with fire. This is not to say that he wouldn't do it.

3:45But if you purport to be a democracy like Israel does, you have a deep-seated interest in making sure that people pay attention to the rule of law. And given that Netanyahu has been charged and this trial has been taking place. It seems to me that any self-respecting democracy would want to see the trial play out and see whether there's a conviction or not before you get a pardon.

4:10Piers Morgan:Yeah, 100%, totally agree. The other very contentious thing that came out of the weekend about the situation in Gaza, it was actually on the West Bank, actually. This was video emerging that showed Israeli security forces is shooting dead two Palestinians who had apparently, from what we saw on the video, surrendered in the occupied West Bank. And after they had surrendered, they were then ushered back into this area they had come out from and were shot dead, which many think was a breach of the Geneva Convention, which was a clear execution, therefore a war crime. Israel says it's investigating, but what did you think of that?

4:54Well, I find these cases hardly surprising at all. After all, Israel has been accused of waging a genocide in Gaza. And genocide is the crime of all crimes. And all sorts of people believe that Israel is committing a genocide. A large number of human rights groups have investigated this issue and have concluded that genocide is taking place. The UN has set up an international commission to investigate it and has come to that conclusion. Prominent scholars, including Israeli scholars, have come to that conclusion. So for a country that's committing genocide in Gaza, it's hardly surprising that they're shooting innocent civilians in the West Bank.

5:42I mean, it's just the way the Israelis operate. There's just nothing surprising here at this point.

5:48Piers Morgan:Just turning quickly to Ukraine, a lot of stuff going on here, a lot of push from the Americans to try and get a peace deal. Do you think there's any chance of a peace deal? There's no chance. And the reason is that the Russians have a series of demands that they view as non-negotiable, that neither the Ukrainians nor the Europeans will accept. And in fact, if you look at the Ukrainian and the European position vis-a-vis these Russian demands, they're on the other side of the dipole. They disagree almost completely with what the Russians want. So I don't see any way that President Trump can get a deal that satisfies both the Ukrainians and the Russians.

6:44And I would note to you, Piers, that President Trump came up with, or his administration came up with, this 28-point plan. And there were many complaints that the Ukrainians and the Europeans had not seen the plan, and they were terribly unhappy with it. It was dead on arrival. And it was obviously a Russian plan. I think that's wrongheaded. In fact, the plan, the original 28-point plan that was leaked, was dead on arrival for the Russians as well as the Ukrainians and the Europeans. And what the American negotiators, and this is Jared Kushner and Steve Witkoff, were trying to do was they were trying to sort of find a middle position that would satisfy both sides.

7:24And they couldn't find that. And they couldn't find it because it's not there to be had. And this is why this war is ultimately going to be settled on the battlefield when one side or the other wins.

7:36Piers Morgan:There's also mounting speculation that President Zelensky may lose office because of what's been going on with his number two who's just had to resign over mass corruption allegations. Would that change the dynamic at all if that was to happen? No, I don't think so at all. I think, first of all, with regard to events on the battlefield, which, as I said, are really crucial, I don't think getting a new president or keeping Zelensky in power matters one iota. Now, one could argue that you'll get a new president who's interested in reaching a peace agreement with the Russians, and that new president in Ukraine would go to great lengths to accommodate the Russians.

8:25I think this is extremely unlikely. I hope it happens, but it's not going to happen in my opinion. And the end result is that whoever replaces Zelensky will not look very different from Zelensky in terms of his willingness to wage the war. I get so many headaches every month. It could be chronic migraine, 15 or more headache days a month, each lasting four hours or more. Botox, on a botulinum toxin A, prevents headaches in adults with chronic migraine. It's not for those who have 14 or fewer headache days a month. Prescription Botox is injected by your doctor. Effects of Botox may spread hours to weeks after injection, causing serious symptoms.

9:03Alert your doctor right away, as difficulty swallowing, speaking, breathing, eye problems, or muscle weakness can be signs of a life-threatening condition. Patients with these conditions before injection are at highest risk. Side effects may include allergic reactions, neck and injection site pain, fatigue, and headache. Allergic reactions can include rash, welts, asthma symptoms, and dizziness. Don't receive Botox if there's a skin infection. Tell your doctor your medical history, muscle or nerve conditions, including ALS Lou Gehrig's disease, myasthenia gravis or Lambert-Eaton syndrome, and medications, including botulinum toxins, as these may increase the risk of serious side effects.

9:34Why wait? Ask your doctor. Visit BotoxChronicMigraine.com or call 1-800-44-BOTOX to learn more.

9:42Piers Morgan:Let's turn to what I was talking about with my intro. This is sort of an extraordinary situation. I want to tee it up for viewers by explaining the sort of background to this, which is that in 2006, there was a working paper, The Israel Lobby and US Foreign Policy, published in March of that year by the Harvard Kennedy School. It became the basis for a book published the following year. The book was an analysis of the impact of pro-Israel advocacy and lobbying groups on the US political system and the role of organisations like the American-Israel Public Affairs Committee, AIPAC, in shaping US foreign policy towards the Middle East.

10:24Piers Morgan:And there was a furious and almost instantaneous backlash, very unusual really in the world of academia at the time. A wave of news articles describing the authors, of which you were one, as anti-Semites, the Anti-Defamation League weighing in to denounce what they called an anti-Jewish screed. The pressure became so intense that the Kennedy School removed its logo from the paper and added a disclaimer, distancing the institution from its arguments. All this is with the backdrop of ongoing rumour mill that Epstein was in some way an Israeli asset, maybe even employed by Mossad, which has been roundly denied but continues to be fuelled as a rumour.

11:08Piers Morgan:And against the backdrop of that, it becomes a little more credible to believe it. So, first of all, your reaction to these emails that have come out, which reveal what was going on at the time between Jeffrey Epstein and Alan Dershowitz? Well, I certainly knew at the time that Alan Dershowitz had us, me and Steve Walt, in his gun sights, and he was doing everything he could to smear us. I had no idea that he was cooperating with Jeffrey Epstein in that endeavor. I don't think I even knew who Jeffrey Epstein was in 2006 when the original piece came out in the London Review of Books, or even in 2007 when the book itself was published.

11:55But I'm not surprised at all now that I've seen a few of the emails that Dershowitz and Epstein were cooperating with each other to smear me and Steve. I mean, after all, they were good friends. Dershowitz was Epstein's lawyer. And both of them are individuals who have a passionate attachment to Israel and will go to enormous lengths to defend Israel no matter what. So in a very important way, it's not surprising at all that Epstein was cooperating with Dershowitz.

12:28Piers Morgan:Do you think there could be merit to the rumours that Epstein was more heavily involved with Mossad, with the Israeli government at the time? Oh, sure. I mean, we have to wait and see. We have to see all of the emails and all the evidence that comes out when the Department of Justice releases the files. But a number of people who have seen big chunks of the files say that one thing that strikes them is the extent to which Epstein was involved with Israel and Israel-related matters. There's just no question that there is a deep interest in helping Israel in all sorts of ways on Epstein's part. But exactly what that means, especially with regard to the Mossad, is impossible to say, given the evidence that's available in the public at this point in time.

13:22Piers Morgan:Do you think the central tenant of your argument in that paper holds water today? Is it better? Is it worse? Do you think that these issues have exacerbated or been reduced? Well, the fact is, Pierre, that when Steve and I wrote the article and then the book, it was one of the first times that anybody exposed the lobby in a very public fashion, in a way that garnered a lot of attention. And it was easy for people to slander us at the time, because so many people didn't know much about the lobby. And one might think, therefore, that what we were saying was overstated or preposterous, however you want to put it.

14:10But now, given what's happened, especially since October 7th, it's hard to deny that the lobby has awesome power. And it's hard to deny that the lobby goes to enormous lengths to skew American foreign policy in a pro-Israel way. The basic argument we made in the book is that if you look at the United States' relationship with Israel, it's a relationship that has no parallel in modern history, or to put it differently, no parallel in recorded history. The United States supports Israel unconditionally, especially with regard to the Palestinians. Almost no matter what Israel does, we support Israel hook, line, and sinker.

14:56So the question is, why is this the case? Is it for strategic reasons? Not at all. There's no strategic case to be made for our support for Israel, especially for unconditional support. Is it done for moral reasons? Heck no. Look at the fact that we're supporting the genocide in Gaza. That's not in our moral interest. So then the question is, why are we doing this if it's not strategically or morally smart to do? And the answer, of course, is because of the power of the lobby. The lobby, and this includes people like Alan Dershowitz, work overtime to suppress any discourse that's critical of Israel, critical of the U.S.-Israeli relationship, or critical of the lobby.

15:40And for a long time, they were very successful at that. But those days are long gone now. And the basic argument that we made in the book looks pretty obvious to most people at this point in time in ways that it certainly did not when the article first came out and the book came out earlier in time.

16:03Piers Morgan:Do you think, I mean, the polls suggest that there is increasing antipathy from many Americans to this ongoing relationship with Israel, as you put it, unconditional. Where do you think that leads? Well, there's no question that Israel is in real trouble. And if you look at how Prime Minister Netanyahu has been reacting, he's desperate to figure out a way to change Israel's image in the West, especially in the United States. But if anything, all the movement's going in the other direction. Before October 7th, most of the criticism that was out in the open of Israel came from the Democratic Party.

16:48It came from the left-hand side of the political spectrum. That's all changed now. You're getting all sorts of criticism from the right-hand side. People like Steve Bannon, people like Tucker Carlson, Marjorie Taylor Greene, and even Charlie Kirk, before he was killed, was clearly moving in that direction. So you have this problem that inside the MAGA base of the Republican Party, there are a substantial number of people who have become profoundly critical of Israel. And I would imagine that with the passage of time, their numbers will grow. And the numbers of people on the left who are critical of Israel, their numbers will grow as well.

17:31So this is a colossal problem for Israel and its supporters here in the United States.

17:37Piers Morgan:And at the same time, I think there's no doubt you're seeing a rising amount of overt anti-Semitism. You know, some would blame the Israeli government for the actions it's taken that's been fermenting that. But others say that this is a genuine issue, that more and more people are becoming genuinely anti-Semitic. Would you agree with that? When was the last time you truly trusted the seafood you brought home? I used to second guess everything. Nutrition, taste, sustainability and provenance. until I found Wild Alaskan Company. And I'm thrilled to say they're now sponsoring the show. Wild Alaskan delivers wild-caught, perfectly portioned seafood directly to your door.

18:15Piers Morgan:No antibiotics, no additives, just clean, nutrient-rich fish, which support healthy oceans and happy fishing communities. Their fish is frozen right off the boat to lock in taste and nutrients like omega-3s. They offer a flexible membership, which makes it easy to keep your freezer stocked with seafood you can really feel great about. And with a 100 % money-back guarantee, there's no risk. There's quality seafood you can trust, all sourced from Alaska. Not all fish are the same. Get seafood you can trust. Go to wildalaskan.com slash peers, that's P-I-R-S, for$35 off your first box of premium wild-caught seafood.

18:53Piers Morgan:That's wildalaskan.com slash peers for$35 off your first order. And our thanks to Wild Alaskan Company for sponsoring this episode. Getting older hits you like a freight train or so people tell me. Stiff joints, gym recovery, dragging on, loose skin. Aging is cruel, but it doesn't have to win. Today's show is sponsored by Bubz Naturals Collagen Peptides. Collagen is the body's glue, but it starts fading from your mid-20s. Bubz can restore it, delivering stronger joints, healthier hair and nails, smoother skin and faster recovery. It's a high-quality product, no sugars or fillers, Whole30 approved and NSF certified for sport.

19:36Piers Morgan:You can even stir it into your morning coffee. Live better, longer. For a limited time only, uncensored viewers are getting 20 % off at Bub's Naturals by using code PIERS, P-I-E-R-S, at checkout. Just head to bubsnaturals.com and use code PIERS. After your purchase, they will ask you where you heard about them. Well, please support our show and tell them that I sent you. I agree with that. I think the charge of anti-Semitism is oftentimes used so loosely as to make the term almost meaningless. I think that when people call me and Steve Walt anti-Semites, this is a laughable argument. We're not anti-Semites.

20:20We're both philo-Semites of the first order. We're critical of Israel, critical of the lobby, and critical of the U.S.-Israeli relationship. And by the way, many Jews are critical of Israeli behavior, and they're critical of the lobby. And I would also note to you, Piers, that almost all of the people who defended us when the article and the book then came out were Jewish. Almost all of them were Jewish. However, having said all that, there is no question that there is evidence in the body politic of real anti-Semitism, of hatred of Jews and of arguments that say Jews are different than other people and Jews are evil and so forth and so on.

21:03And I do believe the great danger is if events in Gaza continue, if events in the West Bank continue, and the lobby continues to operate the way it's been operating since October 7th, which is to say out in the open, engaging in smash mouth politics, we could have a major crisis in terms of rising anti-Semitism here in the United States and even in Europe as well. And this is deeply worrisome for sure.

21:32Piers Morgan:I'm about to speak to Alan Dershowitz. Before I go to him, do you have any message for him? No, not really. I think he'll know exactly what to say in terms of what I've said here. He has a rich history of smearing me and Steve, and I'm sure he'll be as good as ever, which is not very good, in my opinion, at that endeavour. Did you feel that the smears damaged you?

22:04That's a tricky question. I mean, we're two tenured professors at two of the greatest universities in the world, and there was no way that his smears could get us removed from those positions. At the same time, there is no doubt that it had an effect on our careers. I mean, Steve was the academic dean of the Kennedy School at the time that the article appeared. And anybody who knew Steve, and I think you could ask Larry Summers about this, who knew Steve well, because he was the Harvard president at the time, thought that Steve was a first order administrator. He was terrific. And that he would have been at least the dean of the Kennedy School and probably would have been the provost or the president of a major university.

22:52But that never happened. I mean, not only was he never dean of the Kennedy School, There's a program for security studies called the Belfer Center inside of the Kennedy School. And Steve, amazingly, has never been asked to be the head of the Belfer Center. So in terms of Steve's professional administrative career, this had devastating consequences. And I believe, I don't know if he'd agree with me, that he would have liked to have been dean of the Kennedy School. He should have been dean of the Kennedy School. He would have been a superb dean, but that was ruled out of bounds once he wrote the lobby article.

23:32I didn't have those kind of ambitions at all, so it had no effect on me. I was just interested in being an intellectual or an academic, and so it didn't have that effect. And there were just all sorts of other consequences as well. We had all sorts of talks cancelled then and since then, and all sorts of opportunities to make money or to be invited to give talks or participate in big events are not open to us because we're viewed in some circles by a handful of people as anti-Semites.

24:08Piers Morgan:Professor Mearsheimer, fascinating stuff. Thank you very much indeed for joining me. Thank you for having me, Piers. Well, listening to that, as I said, is Jeffrey Epstein's former lawyer, the author of the new book, The Preventative State, Alan Dershowitz. Alan, welcome back to Uncensored. What's your reaction to what Professor Mearsheimer said there? Well, I'm glad we're having an academic, civil discussion of this. I had challenged both professors, Walton Mearsheimer, to debate me at the Kennedy School, to debate me at the Harvard Law School. and they have declined. I wrote a 200-page analysis of their book, an academic analysis.

24:51It wasn't a smear. It was a very cogent, line-by-line dissection of their arguments and disproof. And they could have easily tried to respond to it by writing a 100-page or a 50-page rebuttal to my 200-page rebuttal. But they didn't. So smear is not the right word. This was an academic dialogue, an academic discourse. And I think there were multiple sides to it. People took different sides. It was very seriously considered. And I was honored to participate in that. I am not a lobbyist for Israel. I'm not a member of the Mossad. I am an American, a loyal American who strongly supports the American-Israel relationship the way many Christian Americans do and many Jewish Americans do.