'He Knows a LOT' Boies Calls For Andrew's 'Safe Passage' To US | With Michael Tracey

19:09Absolutely.

19:09David Boies:I think he's got an obligation to tell what he knows. Now, I also think that if he's afraid of being arrested in the United States, we ought to give him safe passage to come to the United States to testify. because I think we don't want there to be any excuse for him not coming and telling what he knows. But he knows a lot. How much? I don't know myself because they gave up in the litigation we had against them just before his deposition was supposed to be taken. So I don't think anybody knows how much he knows, but we know he knows a lot from his contact. And whatever he knows, Even if it was a little bit, I think he has an obligation to share that.

20:01Piers Morgan:Do you believe that Andrew Mountbatten-Windsor committed crimes? I mean, obviously, you represented Virginia Dufresne. She made very serious allegations of criminal behavior by him against her. Do you believe that he committed crimes? I think that it certainly is something that justifies an investigation.

20:25David Boies:What he knew and when he knew it, what he knew about her age, what he knew about the extent to which he was coerced, she was coerced, I think needs to be decided by investigators, prosecutors, and ultimately by judge or jury. He certainly engaged in terribly wrongful conduct. He clearly knew that Jeffrey Epstein and Maxwell were trafficking these girls. Now, whether he knew that they were underage, whether he knew that there was force and coercion involved, that is something that is a state of mind that I think before I made a judgment on that I'd want to see more evidence. But it's certainly something that was worth investigating.

21:29David Boies:Whether statute of limitations have now passed I think is a question. But I have been, as you know, I have been very disappointed in the authorities in the United States and in the United Kingdom for not doing this investigation in a timely way.

21:51Piers Morgan:There's been a lot of pressure on King Charles in the UK to take more action against his brother. He has removed his titles and Andrew has now moved from a very luxurious home to a much smaller but still pretty luxurious home that will be paid for by the king, including a staff and so on. You know, what should King Charles do? A lot of people are asking that question. In your opinion, what should he do?

22:20David Boies:Yeah. I think that's really hard. Andrew has lost his title. He's lost his home. He's lost almost all of his friends. He's lost the ability probably ever to make a living.

22:40David Boies:He is, after all, Charles' brother.

22:45David Boies:And I think it's a special situation when he's also the king and he's got responsibilities to the nation as well as to his family. But I would not want to be in Charles' position.

23:01Piers Morgan:You said in 2021 that you may seek to depose Meghan Markle, Prince Harry's wife, as part of Virginia's civil suit against Andrew, as she may have important knowledge about the then prince's behavior. Is that something? Do you still think she may have information that could be useful?

23:22David Boies:Well, I think that's I think that's quite likely. Now, whether she has any information that we don't already know, I think is more doubtful. We know so much more now than we did when we started the lawsuit against then Prince Andrew. So whether she has anything to add today, I'd be less certain. But she certainly was in a position to know a lot about Prince Andrew.

23:58Piers Morgan:We've also seen the downfall of Lord Mandelson, who was the UK ambassador to the United States. He lost his job. He's now being investigated by the British police, not least because he appeared to be trading highly classified information about what the UK government was doing when he was a business minister. So he's in very hot water then. But again, he has so far resisted going to the United States to testify in front of Congress. Do you feel the same way towards him as you would towards Andrew, given Mandelson's clearly lied about the nature of his relationship with Epstein and was clearly around him, including on the island and everything, for a sustained long period of years?

24:39David Boies:I'm R.J. Decker, a private investigator, uncovering the Sunshine State's darkest secrets.

24:46Michael Tracey:Tuesdays, it's the premiere of ABC's hottest new crime show. R.J. freaking Decker, as I live and breathe. He's a private eye. It's not a standard murder. It's someone bigger. And a public mass.

24:57David Boies:Trying to get someone back to prison today?

24:59Michael Tracey:You go to prison one time and suddenly it's all the jokes. R.J. Decker, series premiere, Tuesdays on ABC and stream on Hulu.

25:11David Boies:I believe that everyone who has information ought to share that information. You still have, as you saw earlier on your program, people who are denying the existence of the facts that are in front of all of us. And I think particularly in that context, it's important that everybody who has information come forward and provide that information honestly. As I say, I think that I would feel the same way about Lord Mendelsohn as I do about Andrew, that if they're prepared to come to the United States and testify under oath, they ought to be free to do that without worrying about that the United States is going to seize them at the border.

26:03David Boies:But I do think they've got an obligation to come forward. And perhaps they could even testify if they didn't want to come to the United States. Perhaps they could even testify in the United Kingdom. I believe Congress would send representatives over to the United Kingdom to take their testimony. But one way or another, I think there is no excuse, none, for them not providing the evidence that they have, not providing the information that they have about the sex trafficking.

26:39Piers Morgan:No, I completely agree. I had Alan Dershowitz on the show a couple of days ago, and he went to great pains. He was obviously Epstein's attorney for a long period of time. He went to great pains to try and defend Epstein's original conviction as not being a confession of being a paedophile. He said that in the end, Epstein only pled guilty to soliciting prostitution from a girl of 17 years and 10 months and a 21-year-old young woman and said that's not a paedophile. What is your reaction to that? And is he telling the whole story there?

27:28David Boies:I don't know why Alan Dershowitz continues to try to defend what is just indefensible. He ought to take responsibility for his actions. He ought to take responsibility for what he told the British press back at the time when he was representing

28:00David Boies:Epstein. I've had my own issues with him, and I really don't want to go after him more than I already have. But I don't think it's reasonable to say that he only acted as a lawyer. He acted as a publicist dealing with the press, telling the press incorrectly that Epstein had passed a lie detector test, which he didn't.

28:36David Boies:And I think that everybody who is involved with Epstein needs to step up and take responsibility responsibility for their role. And I think the more that they deny, I think the worse it is. However they thought at the time, they now know what the facts are. And whatever justifications they thought they have, they know those justifications are false. I think that everybody ought to take responsibility for what they did and for their support, assistance of what was going on. So I think Mr. Dershowitz, like a lot of other people, would serve themselves a lot better by coming clean.

29:42Piers Morgan:And finally, David Boyes, Ghislaine Maxwell refused to give any answers to questions before the House committee last week, but said she may testify in exchange for clemency from President Trump. What's your response to that? There is no basis, none, for clemency.

30:10David Boies:To give clemency or pardon to a person who played the role that she did in the victimization of dozens, hundreds of young girls and young women would be a travesty. I think that the chances that President Trump's going to do that are small. But I think if that were to happen, it would be an outrage. She has no position or right to try to bargain for her evidence.

30:49David Boies:The people of the United States, the people of the United Kingdom, the people of the world have a right to know her evidence. And although she has a right against self-incrimination, she can be granted immunity for her testimony. That is, she can be granted immunity for the testimony in the sense that the testimony cannot be used against her. But she's already in jail. Nobody needs to use that testimony to convict her. And if she fails to give that testimony after being granted immunity, she can be held in contempt. And she can be held in contempt and in prison for just as long as necessary. And the special treatment that the administration has given her, taking her out of the ordinary prison, putting her in a much more comfortable prison is an act of grace.

31:53David Boies:It's an act that I think itself was a terrible mistake. But there's no reason, none, to try to coddle her and bargain with her for her testimony.

32:11Piers Morgan:I just took a quick look at the prediction markets. Polymarket currently say there's just a 17 % chance that anyone will be jailed over Epstein disclosures. Would you agree with that?

32:27David Boies:Oh, I hope not. I think that is illustrative of the cynicism that people have about our justice system and the prosecutors. I think that's a reflection of the cynicism that people have about our Justice Department today. The cynicism that more than four out of five people think that our Justice Department is going to give a pass to people because they're rich and powerful. I think that's a tragedy.

33:04Piers Morgan:Yeah, it is. David Boyce, thank you so much. It's great to have you back on our census. I appreciate it.

33:09David Boies:Thank you. It's good to talk to you.

33:13Piers Morgan:Well, let's go back to the panel there. We bring in John Kiriakou. I mean, David Boies is always extraordinarily impressive. He's one of the great criminal lawyers in modern American history with an extraordinary track record. What did you make of what he was saying there?

33:30Michael Tracey:Oh, I agreed with everything he said. You know, it's like we never learn from history, Piers. We didn't learn from Watergate or from Iran-Contra that the cover-up of the crime is almost always worse than the crime. It's always better just to be honest, because the truth will out eventually anyway. So just be honest. If there are three million more documents, by God, release the three million more documents. Let's let justice run its course. And I want to agree with another thing he said. I thought that Ghislaine Maxwell was already given her gift when she was transferred from a low security prison to a minimum security prison.

34:15Michael Tracey:There's an internal Bureau of Prisons policy that prohibits people convicted of child sex crimes from serving their time in a minimum security prison. Because minimum security prisons have no bars on the windows, no locks on the doors. You're free to come and go as you please. you're just on your honour not to abscond. They can't be sent to maximum or medium security prisons because they'll be killed there in many cases. So they have to go to low security prisons, which are secure, but not minimum. She's in a minimum and she's the only child sex criminal in a minimum security prison. It's just wrong.

34:56Piers Morgan:It is completely outrageous. And on the other point that I discussed the other day, and Alan Dershowitz vehemently denied this, but there's growing evidence from these leaked documents that Epstein was working with Israel in some capacity. Do you believe he was a full-fledged Mossad agent?

35:17Michael Tracey:I've said from the very beginning, including right here on the show, that I've always believed he was a Mossad access agent. Maybe not polygraphed, formally recruited, but he was working on behalf of Mossad, I believe, to get them access to important people and closely held information that they otherwise would not have had access to. But now we also know from the latest tranche of documents that he had actively sought contact with the CIA and the FBI and that he had sought contact with MI5 and MI6 and possibly even the Germans. So he was out there as what we would call in the intelligence community an intelligence broker, somebody who has a little bit of information or access to information and is looking to see who is willing to pay what for it.

36:14Piers Morgan:Mike Bench, thank you for your patience in waiting so long to talk. You're a former US State Department official. You served in the first Trump administration. You've become more critical of the government since then. First of all, your reaction to David Boies and that interview we just did?

36:34Michael Tracey:Well, I think it's generally right. There's the question of, I'm more concerned about, as John pointed out, the cover-up. I think it's been...

36:48Michael Tracey:I'm not sure what the point of trying to contest the sort of evil nature of what was done, that to me matters much less than the protection of it by institutions in our government, whether they be the Justice Department, the FBI, intelligence services, or oligarchs on the outside who want to hide their own relations. That, to me, is really what the heart of the scandal has moved to in the seven years after his death and the absence of questions. What I would add is that Congress can actually take an additional step. I'm reminded of the George Bush 2003 speech, mission accomplished after we invaded Iraq.

37:33Michael Tracey:This is kind of what this feels like to say, we've turned over everything, mission accomplished. By the way, there's 3 million more files. We have zero information from the Central Intelligence Agency or the State Department. The State Department actually leased Jeffrey Epstein a five-story mansion that he stayed in for free for extended periods after it seized it from the government of Iran. While Jeffrey Epstein's own personal history in the CIA and foreign intelligence adjacent spaces date back to the 1970s and the kind of Iran, Middle Eastern and Latin American operations there, it seems very obvious at this point that there are entire troves both within DOJ and CIA and state that need to be turned over.

38:18Michael Tracey:What can be done right now, I think, to move the ball forward in both what David was saying and what folks like John mentioned here, is in 1992, after the outpouring of anger that happened after Oliver Stone's JFK movie, there was a bill passed by Congress. It was called the John F. Kennedy Records Collection Act that forced the CIA to turn over or to set up an independent auditing board to begin the process of reviewing and declassifying documents. You can do the same mechanism here. If the Justice Department is saying there's three million, we're not turning over. Pass another bill. Who's going to be on the other side of it?

38:58Michael Tracey:This one passed 427 to 1 in the House and 99 to 0 in the Senate. Pass a bill and force them to be reviewed by an independent auditing board. And don't just make it DOJ, FBI, extend it to the intelligence services the same way that both chambers of Congress passed in 1992 around JFK.

39:17Piers Morgan:Fascinating. Michael Tracy, was there anything David Boyce said giving you pause for thought?

39:39Michael Tracey:I have to say, Piers, I'm a bit disappointed that you didn't ask him a single challenging question. I invite you to ask me any challenging question you'd like. And you'd think that given David Boyd's stature and him being hailed as this legendary criminal attorney, that maybe he could tolerate one or two probing questions that might be outstanding, such as among these files that have been produced as of January 30th are a memo that memorializes internal deliberations amongst prosecutors in the Southern District of New York, in which they frankly convey that they are stunned as to how outlandishly non-credible Virginia Roberts Gouffre was when they interviewed her in September 2019.

40:26Michael Tracey:This memo is December 2019. David Boies represented Virginia, including as to the lawsuit that was brought against Prince Andrew. And yes, it was an extortionist lawsuit, but the British royal family is incredibly feckless. They are not going to challenge any of the premises that are being marshaled against him to foment this mass hysteria and moral panic. and therefore everybody takes the resolution of that lawsuit to mean that there was some concession to Prince Andrew's guilt. Even if we want to stipulate that he did have some sort of sexual contact with Virginia Roberts Goufray when it was alleged to have taken place, she would have been above the legal age of consent in England.

41:13Michael Tracey:And yet we're told this is a giant pedophilic sex trafficking crisis. But you know what the files show us? that the government investigators who were on a war path at this point against Epstein and then Maxwell discovered no credible evidence of any pedophilic sex trafficking or any sex trafficking at all to any third party individuals, which was the crux of the mythology that Virginia Roberts Gouffre incubated, that Tara Palmieri amplified so lamentably, credulously, and that David Boies actualized in the legal filings that he carried out on her behalf. This is outrageous. This is a fraud that's been perpetrated on the public by a conspiracy.

41:58Michael Tracey:You know what the conspiracy is? The conspiracy is this unthinking, brainless hysteria combined with journalistic credulity, combined with an unwillingness to do any actual research as to the facts and evidence and to treat David Boies like you just did. Now, why didn't you ask him about the 30 % in attorney's fees that he convinced Judge Rakoff in the Southern District of New York to reward him for his almost$350-plus million lawsuits against Deutsche Bank and J.P. Morgan that he's now trying to extract even more from Bank of America, which is why he's... Can I ask a question? You've made your speech.

42:37Michael Tracey:Because he doesn't want to undercut his page.

42:38Piers Morgan:Do you know what? I'm hearing...

42:40Michael Tracey:Can I ask a question?

42:42Piers Morgan:I'm hearing a lot of conspiracy theories, but they're all coming out of your mouth. Let me give the final word to Tara, because he keeps... What conspiracy theory did I postulate? When he's not lecturing me about my interview skills, he's lecturing you about your journalistic skills. So your response to that, And to what David Boyce had to say.

43:03Michael Tracey:Please, Tara, go ahead. Defend it. I don't know, Michael. Have you ever actually listened to any of the tapes at the Palm Beach, you know, the police in Palm Beach, the detective? Have you listened to any of the girls that they interviewed that were as young as 14? Yeah, and you think that they're not credible. I've listened to it all, Tara. You don't think that entire pyramid scheme in a high school? Do you think Virginia Roberts-Goufray is credible? She had nothing to do with that initial Palm Beach investigation. We're talking about your former journalist, the collaborator, who had to recant allegations against Dershowitz, had to recant her allegations.

43:35Michael Tracey:Let her speak, please. Let her speak. Recanted against. Let her speak. John Luke Brunel. So you defend the credibility. Let her speak. You're all caught your mind. Your journalist, the collaborator. Go ahead. Do you work? Do you work? Who do you work for, Michael? Because I've never met anyone in my entire life who would so. Yeah, like who's paying you? Who do you work for? I think a lot of people are wondering this because I've never seen anyone quite like you going after victims of sex crimes and attacking them like this. So you must be being paid by someone in power who does not like these accusations that have been made against them.

44:12And I think I think it's fair to ask, are you being paid by any of the men who've been accused by Jeffrey Epstein?

44:23Michael Tracey:I'm having trouble hearing right now. I wish I could respond to whatever nonsense she just blurted out. I'm asking you if you have ever been paid by any of the men who have been accused of crime. Maybe somebody can... Astonishing...

44:37Piers Morgan:An astonishing coincidence that you suddenly lost your hearing when you were asked a very difficult question. I swear to God. I'm not saying you didn't get cut.

44:49Michael Tracey:If he can hear you, can you ask him that question? because he can't hear me, but maybe he can hear you asking that question. I think it's a fair question to ask.

44:57Piers Morgan:Michael, can you hear me?

44:58Michael Tracey:Can you hear me, Michael? I can hear you very faintly. Did you just allege that I'm somehow implicated in the Epstein criminality, or did I mishear you? I asked if you were being paid by anyone.

45:10Piers Morgan:No, Tara asked if you're being paid by anybody to smear the victims of the Epstein scandal.

45:16Michael Tracey:See, rather than defend the merits of her journalistic output, which she can't because it's indefensible, what does she do? She tries to impugn me personally, tries to imply or... You're not answering... What's the answer to the question? Of course I'm not being paid by anyone. I'm paid by my readers on Substack, you idiot. You just can't engage on the merits, Tara. You are a disgrace. I mean, I'm happy to go through all of my reporting, which is back-checked. You are going to be remembered as somebody who is integral in fomenting this moral panic and mass hysteria that's led to mass defamation like you just tried against me.

45:46Michael Tracey:You know how Ro Khanna and Thomas Massey got caught a few days ago accusing a random auto mechanic in New York and a random IT manager of having been complicit in pedophilic sex crimes? You're just following on in that tradition, which is so emblematic of how this issue has functioned in the popular mind. I'm going to give Tara... Now it's being weaponized politically. So no, of course, Piers. I resent the implication. I resent the question. I asked her straightforward questions about her own journalist... Yeah, okay. I'm going to Tara now. A single aspect of it... You don't just get to talk ad infinitum.

46:21Michael Tracey:Instead, she tries to do her whole little defamation song and dance because she can't actually engage in an intelligent way because there's no defence to what she's done. Tara, let me... No, there is. Nor for David. I can talk about my reporting on the Broken Jeffrey Epstein podcast. Tara, let me ask you.

46:33Piers Morgan:Tara, you don't need to justify your reporting. It's been excellent on the whole scandal. Why not? Tara, let me just ask you. I'll justify mine. Let me ask Tara. Tara, what was your response to David Boies' interview, finally?

46:45Michael Tracey:You know, I think David Boies has done a lot of incredible work. And I know that to go after the crown was a really big deal, especially for his firm. They're obviously one of the biggest firms in the world. And so to target the monarchy is a really big deal when you have offices in London. And that can affect, as anyone would know, as a lawyer. So and I think it's great that his partner, I'm blanking on her name right now. She's really earned the trust of the victims. And it's they're really hard cases to pursue. I mean, when you go after the most powerful people in the world, you can't represent them either.

47:26Michael Tracey:And when you have a talk, when you have a white shoe law firm, it's like, how are you supposed to do? How are you supposed to do that? So I think it's incredible. I think it's very commendable. Excuse me. Um, and I, you know, there, there's still so much more to do though. There's still so many more places to go. And unfortunately I just don't see it coming from the Southern district of New York. Like in particular with Leon black, I mean, the man who was picked to replace Leon black by Leon black himself, like he picked his own successor and that man is Jay Clayton. And now Jay Clayton is running the Southern district of New York.

48:03Michael Tracey:He is the lead prosecutor and it's, he really going to do an investigation into the guy who picked him to succeed him at Apollo Management when he had to step down, when Leon Black had to step down because of an Epstein investigation, found that he paid Epstein$150 million to do estate planning? It's just everything is so incestuous. And how are we supposed to trust that power will police itself? We can't. And that's where we are.

48:30Piers Morgan:Well, that's where journalists like you come in and where lawyers like David Boyce come in. I've got to leave it there. Thank you all very much indeed. Thank you. Piers Morgan Uncensored is proudly independent. The only boss around here is me. If you enjoy our show, you can ask for only one simple thing. Hit subscribe on YouTube and follow Piers Morgan Uncensored on Spotify and Apple Podcasts. And in return, we will continue our mission to inform, irritate and entertain. And we'll do it all for free. Independent Uncensored media has never been more critical, and we couldn't do it without you.

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