'He Was EXONERATED!' Michael Jackson Documentary Questioned By His Defense Attorney

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0:30Piers Morgan:On this episode of Uncensored, as a new bombshell documentary reexamines Michael Jackson's 2005 child molestation trial, are there any secret rooms? We gather those who knew him best to ask a simple question. Was the king of pop a sex abuser? Well, the lawyer seen there in that clip was Michael Jackson's defence attorney during his infamous trial. Thomas Mesereau, who convinced the jury to find Jackson not guilty on all 14 counts. He didn't take part in the documentary, but he's agreed to join us for the first interview since its release. Thomas, a long time since I've interviewed you. Great to see you again.

1:09Piers Morgan:Great to see you. It's nice to be back, and thank you for the invitation. It's a kind of fascinating moment, of many fascinating moments in the world of Michael Jackson before, during and after his death, because on the one hand, you have this blockbuster smash hit movie glorifying the wondrous performer, the singer, the dancer, the superstar, and then it stops before any of the other stuff gets involved, the child molestation trial and so on. And now with Netflix coming out with this documentary, that shows that side of it. So you have the two parts, really, of the Michael Jackson story. You didn't take part in the Netflix documentary.

1:53Piers Morgan:Why did you decide not to? Well, first of all, this is a very joyous time for supporters and lovers of Michael Jackson. The biopic is setting all kinds of records. His memorabilia is selling all over the world. His music is streaming all over the world. Even his book Moonwalk is flying off the shelves. I mean, this is a great time to be a supporter and lover of Michael Jackson. So why do we need a biopic in the middle? Excuse me, not a biopic. Why do we need a documentary in the middle of this that goes back 21 years in a case where he was completely exonerated? The jury deliberated for eight days.

2:36Piers Morgan:They had seen almost five months of testimony. They had been in trial five days a week during those five months. They deliberated eight days and they came back with not guilty on every felony count and every misdemeanor count. Fourteen times they said not guilty. He was totally exonerated. So why are we going through a documentary on this? What's the point? I don't think we need a documentary on this. I think there have been enough. And I didn't want to participate in it because we don't need it. He was exonerated. The jury couldn't have sent a stronger message. And let me say this. Who was on this jury, Pierce?

3:17Piers Morgan:We had a white civil engineer who described himself as conservative. We had a retired school principal with a master's degree in counseling. We had a mathematics teacher with a master's degree in mathematics. We had a head of a local social services agency who had been married to a police officer. We had a journalist. We had people in the military nearby at a base very well prominent in that location. We had two women who had experienced molestation in their own family. We had a majority of women. We had no African-American. Nobody could say this was a racially biased jury or a racial verdict.

3:58Piers Morgan:They deliberated. They heard all the evidence. The case is closed. We don't need to revisit this again. And unfortunately, you can't do a short documentary that does justice to all the evidence and witnesses the jurors heard, saw and thought about. You can't do it. So I don't think the timing is suspicious. And I don't think we need another documentary on this case. You know, I had two sort of direct involvements with Michael Jackson, both with him and then with his father. In 1999, I interviewed Michael for the Daily Mirror newspaper when I was the editor over there, and he said this to me. I would slit my wrist before I would.

4:43I could never, ever. I would love to live in London because I love it so much. It just presses so hard on me here, and I try to do so good. I go to the hospital, like a present to the children. As soon as I leave, the next day they go, Wacko Jacko left the hospital, and he ignored all the children. And it hurt my heart. Because I purposely, I flew Minnie Mouse and Mickey Mouse all the way from Euro Disney. I brought them with me to surprise the children. I brought back... Another Crido Crido Mastradio? Yeah, I brought bags of presents and everything. and I spent time with the kid and they made fun of me.

5:23Piers Morgan:You know, it was quite a wide-ranging interview, but he got quite emotional and tearful when he was talking about the allegations against him. I was utterly emphatic. He'd never do anything to hurt a child. And in 2013, when I was at CNN, I interviewed his father, Joe, and asked him outright if he ever had cause for thinking that Michael might be a danger to children. Let's take a look. You never saw anything that concerned you? There's nothing concerning him. We knew Michael. We knew our son. Interesting to hear those again after all these years. But did you just finally, before I bring the other panel members in, Thomas, did you ever have any cause for concern about Michael Jackson and children?

6:08Piers Morgan:Well, when I got into the case, I didn't know who to believe or what to take into account. My mind was clear. I didn't form conclusions. I dug into the evidence. I spent a lot of time with him, and I concluded there is no way this man ever molested a child, abused a child, hurt a child. No way possible. And I still feel that way today. Do you feel there's been a kind of commercial whirlwind around this issue, that people have raced to make money out of it, to be blunt? Well, that's what it is. the media, I'm not including everybody, the media tends to want to glorify salacious allegations. They don't like to spend time on the counter argument.

6:58Piers Morgan:So the media and this documentary spends time on very dramatic, disturbing, salacious allegations and doesn't do justice to the problems with the prosecution's witnesses and the prosecution's case. For example, There's no mention of Chris Tucker, who was our last witness, the famous comedian and actor. He testified as our last witness. He said that he knew this family. He had experience with them. He had concerns about them. And he told Michael to be careful. And he described the accuser as cunning. I called Jay Leno as a witness. Jay Leno testified that the accuser and someone in the background, he thought it was his mother, called him.

7:42Piers Morgan:He got on the phone. The accuser sounded scripted. Something seemed off. He thought they were after money, but they didn't ask for it. And after that phone call, he told his staff to never put them through again. Comedian George Lopez testified that people in the accuser's family accused him of stealing from the accuser's wallet a couple hundred bucks. We had a witness who ran a local newspaper nearby the location where this family was operating. And she said that she was approached by the mother. The mother said they were out of funds. They needed money for their child's health care. And she tried to raise money through the newspaper only to find out that they were using insurance through the Teamsters Union.

8:34Piers Morgan:And she said, I was duped. We had other witnesses like this, they don't appear in the documentary. No documentary, given the time limits, can do justice to the case we put on. And again, I want to repeat, 10 felonies, four misdemeanors, not guilty every time, a clean sweep against the prosecution, total exoneration of Michael Jackson. And just finally, Thomas, obviously, probably the most infamous case that was brought against Michael was from Jordan Chandler, who settled out of court for an estimated$23 million. It was a civil case, a civil settlement. It didn't include any admission of guilt.

9:17Piers Morgan:Chandler was famously able to identify markings on Michael Jackson's genitals. To those who say that's evidence of, you know, there's no smoke without fire and so on, what do you say? I'm not going to comment on that case. As I sit here today, Michael Jackson was never convicted of a crime of any kind in any criminal courtroom anywhere in the world. He was a wonderful person. He was innocent. He didn't deserve to be put through this. It was an honour and a privilege to be his lead trial lawyer. I'm glad we won, and I wish you were still around. Thomas Merzaro, great to talk to you again. Thank you very much indeed for being on Uncensored.

10:00Piers Morgan:Thank you, Piers. I appreciate it. Well, joining me now, a panel met up of people who all had a professional and personal relationship with Michael Jackson. Vincent F. Amen was Michael Jackson's crisis publicist, but now says the superstar was an abuser. Geraldo Rivera is correspondent at large at NewsNation. He's covered the trial and conducted an interview with Jackson before the verdict. And Mark Garagos is a criminal defence attorney and former lawyer for Jackson. Today, he represents some of those who say they were victims of the superstar. So a lot of mixed views here. Let me start with you, Mark Geragos, because Thomas Mesereau was a superb lawyer, did many great trials, and is utterly emphatic to this day that his defence of Michael Jackson at the time was entirely accurate.

10:48Piers Morgan:He never saw any evidence that he molested any children and believes them to be completely innocent. You were of that view initially. Now you represent some of the alleged victims. Why the change? Well, look, I don't disagree with Tom in many different ways. The reason I did not try that case was because when the DA, Tom Sneddon, indicted Michael, he had on count one kind of an obstruction count. that clearly was directed at me doing the investigation of the accusers. And at that point, I knew I would become a witness. And I ended up testifying not once but twice in support of the fact that these accusers in that particular case gave me the, for lack of, I don't know that this is a legal term, but they gave me the willies and we had moved them out of Neverland.

11:47And we had asked that Michael have no further contact with him. So I did not see anything in that case. In fact, Tom is now dead. But I had lunch with Sneddon on at least two occasions. And I told him a year and a half before he did this, I was called in because people around Michael Jackson were worried about this family. And we had Child Protective Services investigating it. And we went through that, and all of the accusations, as far as that point in time, were unproven. And this family, I were not great historians, to say the least. So I don't disagree with Tom in the least. In fact, like I said, I testified not once but twice in support of the fact that Michael had nothing to do with the investigation of them and, frankly, getting them out of Neverland.

12:46Piers Morgan:You now represent, I believe, the Cascio family, and there was a 2026 lawsuit, so this year involving them, Dominic and Connie Cascio, along with their children, long known publicly as Jackson's second family, who originally defended him on The Oprah Winfrey Show, but now allege that Jackson heavily groomed and abused four of the children during the 90s. They were recently profiled on 60 Minutes Australia. Here's a little look at what they said. coming up on 60 minutes the movie might be a blockbuster very whenever you are but it doesn't tell the full story you were under his spell it's a monster he's evil michael jackson had a secret family i was groomed since i was born who forever be traumatized this was the worst thing to live with what made you convinced of their uh credibility given the fact they had appeared on Oprah and defended Jackson.

13:45Piers Morgan:And in the backdrop of what many people feel very cynical about, which is that when he died, Michael Jackson's estate was worth$450 million. Today it's believed to be worth between$2 and$5 billion. And that there's now a whole kind of industry of people having revisionist claims about him and what he did, which they didn't have, you know, 20 years ago or so. Well, to be clear, Howard King represents the Cassio family now. I did represent them for a period of time. One of the things that I thought was significant is they knew certain facts about during the time period when I represented Michael that only could have been somebody who had a front row seat, so to speak.

14:31And if you saw from this interview from 60 Minutes Australia, I sat with them for countless hours. They make extremely compelling witnesses, extremely compelling. And ironically, when I was called as a witness during the trial itself, the judge who provided who presided over that case forced Michael. I say forced because I was called as a witness, said, you've got to waive attorney client in order to have Mr. Geragas testify here, and they did waive attorney, or Michael did waive attorney client during the trial. The fact remains that these kinds of cases are so difficult because absent some kind of video, absent some kind of contemporaneous corroboration, it always comes down to people kind of rooting on either side, depending on whose ox is being gored, to borrow the old expression.

15:31that's what makes them so difficult. Here you've got a situation where Michael was revered. I remember in the 80s when he was at the pinnacle of his fame. If you had neurons firing, you couldn't help but be impressed by just the sheer enormity of his talent. And I think that that tends to overshadow, given this documentary, which you were talking about today, comes on the heels of the movie itself. The movie itself has done blockbuster kinds of commercial success to the point where they now want to do a sequel. And the numbers that they're talking about, to your point, I think the gross on the movie is more than his entire estate was at the time he died.

16:18Piers Morgan:Yeah, it is. It is. It's been an absolute sensation. Let me bring in Vincent Amen. You started working for Jackson in 2002. You were tasked with looking after the Alvizo family who returned to Neverland Ranch to ride out the media storm. You're of the belief that he was predatory to children. Why? Well, initially, when I went out there, I knew Frank very well. Prior to going out there, I had a conversation with Frank, and I said, Frank, is there any instance of this occurring, sleeping in bed with children or any child abuse. Frank, I knew, was a world traveler with Michael, and he ultimately denied it.

17:07So I trusted Frank. I went out to work for Michael and his companies. I started off in damage control with Mark Schaffel, and we handled the Post-Bashir special damage control. eventually I was placed with the Arvizo family to assist them in getting readjusted to society from what was done to them and the damage that was done to them. It wasn't until 2004 where I found something very concerning indicating child abuse. I never seen a magazine like that or any person looking at naked children videos with circles to be ordered of the videos. I then went up to Frank and I confronted him. And basically I said, you know, why do you have this and possess this?

18:02He says this was a phase that Michael and him went through watching these videos. And Michael was the one that circled the videos to be ordered and Frank was the one that obtained the videos for Michael. Were you paid? So in 2004... Sorry, yeah.

18:18Piers Morgan:Finish your point, yeah. So in 2004 is when my position changed. Have you been paid to take part in the documentary, Netflix? We were not allowed to get paid for our appearance and telling our story. I was paid for providing information. OK. Let me bring in Geraldo. Geraldo, I want to start... Welcome back to Uncensored. Always great to have you. I want to start with, this is a clip that you got Michael Jackson to make a statement. This was at the start of the chart. Let's take a look. Finally, you know, we studiously avoided the case. We've not talked at all about the case that's pending. You're under this gag order.

19:03I know that you have received the permission from the judge to read a statement. Yes. You know, I hate to end an interview that way, but if you'd like to read that statement now, I think it's important. Sure. In the last two weeks, a large amount of ugly, malicious information has been released into the media about me. Apparently, this information was leaked through transcripts in a grand jury proceeding where neither my lawyers nor I ever appeared. The information is disgusting and false. Years ago, I allowed a family to visit and spend time in Neverland. Neverland is my home. I allowed this family into my home because they told me their son was ill with cancer and needed my help.

19:46Through the years, I helped thousands of children who were ill or in distress. These events have caused a nightmare for my family, my children and me.

19:57Piers Morgan:Arada, just a simple question, really. Did you believe him at the time, in the moment that he was saying that in front of you? I absolutely did. Do you believe to misday that he is innocent of those charges? I do. I do. I spent hours with Michael on camera, off camera, alone, with my wife. At times, when Michael was living in a motel in Santa Monica, running away from the press, in Neverland, recording studios in the Valley, I never saw anything. And I note, just note, I want to acknowledge the presence of wonderful attorney Mike Garagos, a dear friend over many years, and Thomas Messerow, another wonderful attorney who did a magnificent job in defending Michael in the Santa Barbara case.

20:43I never saw any evidence of that. I spent hours, as I said, speaking with him privately and publicly. I believe the film is an accurate depiction of the best of Michael Jackson, who was, by every measure, profoundly wounded by these accusations. I think that it was a cruelty and an avarice. And one thing that no one has mentioned so far is the fact that the mother of the accuser in the principal case in 2005 was convicted or pled guilty to welfare fraud. These were grifters. And Michael was an amazing, lucrative target. And what they did to his reputation, and this fellow sitting to my right, again, you had to pry from him the fact that he was on the tit, that he was working, getting paid for his efforts.

21:47What they did to him was a sin. It happened to Elvis also later, different allegations, of course. But at least they had the decency to wait until he was passed. Michael's case, it's awful how, when you think back, Piers, when did anyone speak with him in a way where you saw him giving his own account of his own life? You know, and you could see how fragile he was in many ways, how suspicious he was. in Neverland Ranch, even Neverland Ranch, you go there and it was a it was a it was a cold place where, you know, toward the last couple of years, he was virtually in exile there. You know, I I I lament we promised each other that at the end of the trial, if he were acquitted, we would get together and, you know, talk about how these people had scarred him over the years, these accusers and the reporters with whom they curried his favor and got him to sit down to be ambushed and torn apart in a way that was really untoward and beyond the pale.

23:08He went instead to live in Bahrain, I think it was, a guest of the Sultan there, living a life as isolated as you could possibly be. And that's why the movie is so wonderful, to remember how historically wonderful his performances were, his music was. This is a man who is a seminal figure in American pop cultural life. They called him the king of pop for a reason. Yeah, I mean, I saw him live in Paris, actually,

23:46Piers Morgan:an open-air stadium, 80 ,000 people. Without a doubt, the greatest live show I've ever seen. I mean, he was at the peak of his powers and it was the Dangerous Tour in the early 90s. He was unbelievable. And as I played a clip earlier, I got to interview him once for about just under an hour, maybe 40 minutes or so. But I just distinctly remember him getting incredibly emotional when he talked about the allegations. And that was 1999. So he lived with that, I think, really deeply. And, you know, I'm curious what you think, Harald. Do you think it hastened his premature death because of the way his life went, that he kept taking more and more drugs?

24:26Piers Morgan:I absolutely do. I absolutely believe those people in their greed killed Michael Jackson. They went after him. They ate pieces of him. They destroyed him and spit out the pieces. And then, you know, when they hear how the state has grown, suddenly, you know, things that weren't true become true 25 years later. You know, it's been 20 years. I haven't. You know, Piers, I never spoke to him again after the acquittal. I promised amusingly just a pop cultural moment that if he were convicted, I was so convinced of his innocence. I said that I would shave my mustache if he was convicted. And I remember we didn't have cell phones in the airplane in those times.

25:12I was in L.A., landed in New York just in time as the wheels touched down to hear that he had been acquitted. So aside from relief, I cheered. My brother Craig, who was producer, cheered. You know, my cameraman, Greg Hart, cheered. Everybody else in the plane was kind of, you know, because they believed the allegations because they didn't hear the other side of the story. Well, Geraldo... He passes the plane.

25:36Piers Morgan:I'm very relieved to hear the task survive because it's about as iconic as the moonwalk. Yeah, thank you. But let me ask Vincent, I mean, the question I've asked the others who believe him, you know, is I asked Thomas Mesereau, now, are you absolutely sure? And he was completely certain. And I would flip the question to you a different way, which is, how can you be certain that Michael Jackson was guilty, was an abuser? You know, I had been friends with Frank since he was a child. Michael was taking him on trips where the parents would let him sleep in bed. There was one instance during the trial where he had a conversation with Harvey Levin.

26:21of Celebrity Justice, now TMZ. And he explained to Harvey how he slept in bed with Michael on hundreds of occasions and had graphic sexual conversations about women. After that, I had questioned Frank, and I said, is this true? And he said, yes, this is true. And Harvey went on the media and exposed that. And he reported it. It just kept piling on top of each other. and it was an indication that there was something occurring with children. In 2007, and I have been very outspoken about this, in 2004 I actually met with Tom Sneddon and the Santa Barbara prosecutors to provide information to them of what I saw.

27:07If you see an instance of child sexual abuse, you are to come forward. And I also came forward in 2007. I walked into an FBI building in New Jersey, New York FBI. Wait a second. Why didn't they use you as a witness if you were so believable in 2004 on the eve of the trial? Why didn't they use you? Why didn't anyone else believe you then? Why should we believe you now? I don't think it was a question of believing or not believing. I think it was a question of I didn't fit the case. I didn't fit their narrative. And you see, I was accused of many things, holding them hostage. and when that was just totally, absolutely false.

27:50So when I went in there, I didn't fit their narrative because in a trial in the United States - You didn't fit their narrative or they did not believe you. They did not believe you. You were an incredible witness. I didn't fit their narrative. I was the one that's being accused and I went forward. Listen, it's not about believable and unbelievable. You want to look back. TAKE A LOOK AT THEM. 20 YEARS LATER I 'VE BEEN STILL TRYING TO CLEAR MY NAME. WHY WOULD IN A TRIAL SYSTEM OF YOU BEING ACCUSED OF SOMETHING COMING FORWARD PROVIDING TRUTHFUL INFORMATION AND DOCUMENTS AND PICTURES, WHY WOULD THEY NOT USE YOU AS A WITNESS?

28:30LET ME SPEAK. Let me speak. Why would you silence me? That's our question. Why would you silence me? That's what we have to ask Ron Zoning, Gordon Archencloss, and Tom Sneddon. Because they did not believe you. Do you think Janet Arvizo is more believable than me? No education, just a hustler. Isn't she the mother of the accused, you mean? The mother of the accuser accused me through Tom Sneddon of... nefarious behavior. I don't know. So I went in to provide information and tell my story. A liar than a liar. Let me bring Mark Garagos in.

29:14Piers Morgan:How would I be a liar? Let me bring Mark Garagos back in. Maybe you can shed some insight on why they didn't use the testimony of Vincent. Well, I think he's right. I think he did not fit their narrative. Because remember, When I referred to that, I believe it was the count one. That was this whole idea that somehow Michael had orchestrated like the Wizard of Oz, some kind of a effort to silence the Arvizo family. Geraldo is right. Geraldo mentions the one, I believe it was welfare fraud. I don't remember as I sit here. But there was another incident that we had discovered related to, I think it was a J.C.