'He's a TERRORIST!' Mohammed Hijab vs Jonathan Conricus | Migrant Protests, Iran War, Israel & Islam

24:00When you come on Piers Morgan's show because you know it's a bigger audience, much bigger audience, what you're doing is you are putting your tail, your micro tail between your legs and you're scurrying and running away, running away like you did in the first debate with Mario Naufel. All right, let me put a different question to Jonathan. I'm not even going to respond to you.

24:17Piers Morgan:Yeah, you can, but also, Jonathan, the question I would put to you is what we're seeing and I think you were at one of these events, but seeing the pro-Israeli and what many perceive to be an anti-Muslim lobby making allies in the UK with people like Tommy Robinson and what people think are his thuggish group of supporters, I think I'm right in saying you were at one of his rallies. So there is a rising concern, conversely, about that going on in the UK as well. You know, you supporting people like Tommy Robinson, are you comfortable with that? Yeah, you tried that gotcha the last time I was in studio.

24:55It's not gotcha. I mean, you were there.

24:56Piers Morgan:I'm just asking you whether you're comfortable supporting him. Oh, yeah. You know, as I said, in studio, when we spoke about it, then you had some other clown representing the other side in studio alongside me, who is as laughable as Muhammad is now with, you know, personal insults and all that rubbish. Well, you weren't going to get personal, you said, at the start of this. Yeah, well, I'm responding in kind to the level of conversation here. I'll say this. When I walked on the streets of London in the Unite the Kingdom march, what I heard was a lot of patriotic love for England and the UK. I didn't hear a lot of hate speech.

25:35I didn't hear people say bad things about other people. Yes, you showed me a clip of some lady who said things about Islam out of that house. And we debated it in studio. I don't think we have to go over it again, but I'm happy to do it. But I think the bottom line here is, and I think that what people around Europe are saying pretty clearly, whether it's just two days ago or a day ago in Germany or in continuous elections in Scandinavia and in France, in many other places in East Europe, a lot of people are signalling their frustration with this unchecked and reckless immigration of people who are importing a foreign mindset to Europe.

26:19And I think a lot of people understand... But I would say to that... OK, but I would say to that... Same argument with the British Committee.

26:23Piers Morgan:I would say to that... Why doesn't that apply to... Hang on, let me just make your point. I think there has been clearly a collective failure right across the continent of Europe in how migration, immigration has been managed and handled. Everyone would have to accept that. And I think the rise of a lot of right-wing populist groups and leaders is a consequence of that. And it's a consequence because it's inarguable. You can't look at the failure of border control across Europe and not think it's been a failure. But it's also... I'd say that it's more than border control, Piers. Well, but if I...

27:00It's the underlying ideology. No, I understand. It's the underlying ideology that you can import people. But this comes to my point, though. This comes to my point.

27:07Piers Morgan:which is that I keep hearing from my friends in America who are pumped this narrative all the time that Britain is being overrun by Muslims. They've taken control. We're all living in terror of the Muslim community. And I don't recognise any of that. I live in London for most of the year. There are millions of Muslims in our country and most of them have assimilated extremely well with communities and are not violent jihadists. and I certainly don't feel like my country's been overrun by Muslims. So when you start talking about the ideology, Jonathan, I say, well, what you're saying is it is wrong to allow so many Muslims to be in the UK, for example.

27:52Piers Morgan:And to which I say, well, where's the evidence that the Muslim communities in the UK are causing any more problems than any other communities? I mean, do you have it? I'm happy that you ask. The UK, I think, has the authorities in the UK are doing pretty effective influence operations on the British population and significantly denying people statistics and data about the nationality and background of offenders. I think it's very telling when you look at a rare country in Europe, which is one of the top countries in the world on everything, on quality of life and tolerance and life expectancy and all of the other metrics.

28:38And that's Denmark. Denmark is a country that actually profiles crime, criminals and their ethnic and religious background. and it compiles very interesting data. Now, since societies, we could say that there are similarities between Lutheran or Christian Denmark and the UK. I'd say that there is some level of information that we can deduce from the statistics, and I would urge viewers to have a look at official Danish police data about the identity and religion... You are aware, Jonathan. You are aware, Jonathan.

29:14Piers Morgan:I've said this before on the show. The vast majority of crime in the UK is committed by white Christians. It's a population-related answer, obviously. Not if you look at it percentage-wise. There are populations that are overrepresented. It remains a fact that the vast majority of crime... What you'll never read on Tommy Robinson's social media is anything about crimes committed by white Christians. He's making a deliberate decision to only post information when it's a Muslim offender. And I think that creates... And that is one of the reasons why, in America, they have this ridiculous view that we're being overrun by Muslims.

29:57Piers Morgan:Mohammed. I just want to make a couple of... Because you did speak twice, Jonathan. Let Mohammed respond to that. You have spoken twice. On that point, Mohammed, look, the argument, I guess, what I just said is that when you look at it as a proportion... Yeah, of the percentage. ...of the Muslim population, 5 % of the country is Muslim. in the UK. What do you say to those who say, well, you have a disproportionate amount of offenders in the Muslim community? Yeah, so let's take a look at a couple of things here. The first thing is I asked him to give me evidence that there's systemic infiltration, as he claimed, right?

30:26And then he gave me one scanty piece of secondary source material, which is not even evidence, in Sweden, which is a country which is barely recognisable in the grand scheme of things in terms of population. I don't know how many millions there are, 10 million people in Sweden or something like that. It's a very small country, but comparative to like the US and the UK and etc. So that's number one. He couldn't even find it. If it was so systemic and if it was so obvious and it was glaring, then he would have had so many case study examples of the Muslim Brotherhood in the UK and the US and all these groups that he's talking about infiltrating in a systemic way the institutions that, in fact, the pro-Israel lobbies are doing overtly.

31:02They're not doing, they're not even hiding it. Hundreds of millions of pounds in America. What are you shaking your This is a fact, OK? I just mentioned that you're... I'm checking my head because you're talking nonsense. IPAC is lobbying hundreds of millions of pounds in primaries and stuff like that. That's a fact. You can argue... You're talking nonsense. That's why I'm checking my head. None of it is foreign. It's American money. Let me continue. None of it is foreign. It's not Israeli money. Jonathan, let me continue my point. It's American money. You can come back and respond in kind. But let me just finish first.

31:30The second point that you made was... We talked about per capita, essentially percentage. So let's take a very famous situation, grooming gangs. OK, this is a very famous situation. Now, what is usually presented is what happens in Telford or Rochdale or one of these places. And in those places, admittedly, there is over-representation of Pakistani Muslims in those cases. But when you look at the CSA report, which is the most authoritative report that was conducted in 2025, based on home office data and ONS data, that report on a percentage basis says that there are 83 % white people in this country, as a percentage, and they commit 88 % of the child sexual exploitation offences.

32:13Whereas there's 2 % Pakistanis, you were saying that in Denmark, they have categorisations based on ethnicity and in the UK they don't have that. That's factually incorrect. As I've just cited a source for you, which is the most authoritative source, 2 % are Pakistanis in this country, there are 2 % Pakistanis, and of them 2%, according to this, which is the most authoritative data, commit the grooming gang or the sexually child exploitation offences. So it's actually not disproportionate. White people are disproportionately represented. Pakistani people are not disproportionately represented on a national basis, on the most used example, which is grooming gangs.

32:52Admittedly, once again, I have to be concessionary here. If you look at prisons, for example, there is an over-representation of Muslims. Why is that? There's an over-representation of blacks. You can say, what, is it because of their skin color? Is there something genetic within them? The reason I propose why there's an over-representation of black people or Muslims or Pakistanis or Somalis or whoever it may be in prisons in the UK is not to do with religion, as you're making a cause-based argument, and has to do with socioeconomics. When people are poor in a country, they're more likely to commit crime.

33:22So black people from the Caribbean, for example, or Muslim people that have been colonized before in their second generation and they're poor working-class people are more likely to commit crimes and therefore more likely to be in prison than in prisons. So this is something very easy to understand. And this thesis, which is that socioeconomics is the main determinant for criminal behaviour, is the most compelling thesis, which, if you look at all of the different countries in the Western countries, tells the data the best. The Islamic data thesis, if you look at countries which have got more money, Muslim countries that have got more money, they commit less crimes.

33:57if money and crimes are related somehow. When you have less money, you commit more crimes. When you have more money, when you're poorer, you're more likely to commit petty crimes. That's it. It's not to do with skin color. It's not to do with your religion. It's not like they're looking at the verses of the Quran and saying, yes, now I'm going to implement this on the people. There's not even one example of that in the grooming examples. No one says, yeah, I'm going to intoxicate this woman over here, which is haram, religiously, not allowed, prohibited, to give her alcohol, which is a prohibited Islam, and groom her, give her drugs.

34:27No one says, yeah, I'm doing this because the slam tells me to do so.

34:30Piers Morgan:OK, let me get Jonathan's response to that, then I'm going to get a proposition too. Jonathan. Yeah, I think what we should be looking at is what needs to be done. And, you know, we can spin around in circles and... You've got to respond to what I've just said, Jonathan. Talk nonsense. I mean, you don't respond to me, so I'm not going to respond to you. So you don't have an answer then, do you? Of course I do. I have many answers. OK, go ahead. I don't want to be sidetracked by your nonsense because that is essentially what you want to do. I think now you just concede the debate. You've lost. You have no response.

35:01You want to divert the core issue at hand here. You are trying to divert the core issue at hand here. And that is the threat to Western civilization. And what I think people in the West should be cognizant of is that this is the biggest threat that that civilization is facing. And no fancy talk and smoke screens and mirrors that you will provide Many of them factually wrong, by the way. If you look at data in Denmark... If you look at data in Denmark, Muslims, Algerians, Moroccans, Palestinians, Syrians and Afghanis are overrepresented by a factor of 10 and 15 in violent crime, in rape, in heavy assault and in murder.

35:47And those are facts. No, according to who? Give me the source. I'll ask you to stop interrupting me. No, no, give me the source. You've just made a very... I'll ask you to stop interrupting me. Muhammad, stop interrupting me. I didn't interrupt you. And I want to focus on the real issue here that is at hand. You just want to lie. Okay, go ahead. There are examples of countries around the world who, without saying so, have a clear policy of minimising Muslim immigration into their countries, whether it's Japan, South Korea, Denmark, three countries in Eastern Europe, Hungary, Czech Republic, Poland, and other examples of countries that silently, because it's not politically correct to say it, and it offends, and it kind of goes against the grain of a lot of basic beliefs in Western society, but what they're doing is effectively, one, limiting the amount of people from Muslim countries that are eligible to come to come in and if they are eligible to come in, what they do, and this is very important, because there is hope that people can adopt.

36:54There is hope that also Muslims who come with a mindset that is basically medieval and with intentions of taking over countries and waging jihad against the non-believers... OK, OK. OK. All right, listen, listen.

37:12Piers Morgan:You're not equipped for this. Just for time purposes, I want to be fair to both propositions. Let's move to proposition two. Israel's influence on Western politics, especially US foreign policy, is now the greatest threat to global stability and must be reversed as soon as possible. Mohamed, you go first on this. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, think about what just happened with Iran. I mean, according to John Misham, who you've had on your show as well, he is probably one of the most recognised political scientists, scholars in the Western world today. I mean, America signed the surrender document, okay, which is on the 18th of June.

37:47And now they've lost the war. They've actually cost the taxpayer. According to Mark Zandi, who's an economist at Moody, he says that the average American household has to pay$1 ,000 per annum to fund this war through groceries and interest rates and other things and through petrol and gasoline. So imagine you, who have been on the record trying to get people to go to Iran, American people, white people, to die for you. Maybe you see them as subhuman. I don't know because already you've justified civilian deaths, so maybe you do see them as subhuman. I don't know what the situation is. You want them to die for you.

38:30You want them to spend their money for your war, which brings about absolutely no benefit whatsoever for the UK, for the US, or for any of those countries. And in fact, the major beneficiary is obviously Israel. And at the same time, I'll ask you one question, Jonathan, just to show you this. You don't want to have a reciprocal relationship. You don't want to have a reciprocal... The reason is because 18 service people, American service people, died for this Israeli war that Netanyahu is bragging about. Name me one Israeli that has died for an American war. You want to have an asymmetrical, non-reciprocal relationship with the American and British public.

39:16Your foreign minister was just saying, threatening the UK, saying that if the UK does this and that with the settlements, that we have tools, they said. They're threatening the UK. They are threatening the US. They're lobbying. They're paying hundreds of millions of dollars to try and get them to go into wars so they can influence politicians undemocratically in a way that's not in the interest of the populace, not in the interest of America, not in the interest of Europe, not in the interest of the United Kingdom, and kill... You want them to fight on your behalf because you're a coward. You run away from things just like you ran away from the debate.

39:49You only have fights with militia groups which you can't even defeat because Hamas is still... You're still negotiating with them. You said you were going to defeat them three years ago. You're still negotiating with them. You couldn't even finish them. You lost the war. You should be ashamed of yourself. You're an embarrassment. You're telling these people to die for you. Go and you fight yourself. You go and fight yourself. Israel, go boots on the ground, Cog Island. You fight yourself. Who says Halloween only lasts one day? With Wayfair, one night of Halloween becomes a whole season at home.

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40:48Piers Morgan:All right, let him respond. Jonathan? Well, if your way of trying to tell a story about Israeli influence is to speak on behalf of the Iranian regime, which brutalizes its own people, which is the biggest international state sponsor of terrorism, which fires ballistic missiles and kills civilians and drones around the Middle East and oppresses its own people under the power of radical Islam. If your best argument to speak about so-called Israeli influence in the West is to bring up Iran, then I thought more of you coming into this interview than I do now. And none of the nonsense that you're trying to rage bait me with is going to work.

41:37I've been through more qualified debaters than you, and I'm not even going to respond to it. What I would say is the following. What I would say is the following. I would say that, unfortunately, you know, I'll acknowledge the fact that Pete Hegseth and various American generals, commanders of CENTCOM, and even the president have said that Israel is a model ally. Why have they said that? They've said it because before we ask anybody to fight for us, we fight for ourselves. And of all of America's allies, perhaps except for the UK in the Second World War, Israel is a country that first asks its own people to fight, its own service members to fight, and unfortunately has its own civilians.

42:23When was the last time an Israeli died for a US war? When was the last time an Israeli died for a US war? In the last round of fighting... Of course you're going to ignore that one. In the last round of fighting when Iran fired ballistic missiles at Israel, sadly, we had 98 Israeli civilians that were killed and one off-duty Israeli soldier who was at home. So it's a very clear situation. And unfortunately, I can give a lot of examples... I'm asking you about American war. Do you understand the question? Where things are very different. Do you understand? I'm trying to make this conversation, Jonathan.

43:00Look, with all due respect, this is going to get boring if you just keep talking and not engaging. You're not engaging, you're not tracking, you're not engaging or interacting with any question. You're not interacting with anything I've put on the table. You're not interacting with anything at all. Do you want to finish off? Hurry up, because we're getting bored now. We're getting bored of this. By interrupting, you make no points. Make no point, hurry up, because we're getting bored. You're not going to be allowed to speak over me. Hurry up, we're getting bored now, hurry up. I didn't interrupt you, even though you speak nonsense and you're way out of your depth, but I allowed you to speak and you try your personal insults, which are actually quite ridiculous.

43:39But I can give a long list, unfortunately, of factual examples of why U.S. policy significantly differs from Israeli interests and policy. One example would be the situation in Syria. The Syrian regime under Bashar al-Assad was under severe American sanctions, the Caesar Act and many other sanctions. The Americans have taken them off the sanctions list, and it has come at exactly zero benefit to Israel, even significant threats to our national security. Another example would be Turkey. As Erdogan speaks about waging holy war against Israel and marching on Jerusalem, our capital, and as his minister of the interior speaks about being the governor of Jerusalem in the future, the U.S.

44:29is pondering providing that autocrat with F-35s, the pinnacle of American weapon systems. And a lot of fighting had to be done in order to prevent that from happening. That's another example. A third example would be Saudi Arabia or the Khutis. The Khutis, the U.S., made a direct deal with the Khutis over Israel's head and left Israel out of the calculations and basically green-lighted the Khutis to fire missiles towards Israel as long as they didn't fire them at the U.S. And I could go on with a long list of actual examples, not nonsense and cheap propaganda, but actual examples of real world politics where U.S.

45:11policy always takes primacy over Israeli interests. And I think that if you try to convince the world that bringing down the Iranian regime is a bad thing that doesn't serve the purposes of the free world, man, you really have got it wrong. And I think you should reevaluate where you stand because that regime is evil incarnated. It oppresses people. It doesn't allow people to have any civil rights. And I think that even just aligning yourself with them and saying that that is a regime that shouldn't be touched and shouldn't be held responsible for their aggressions, I think speaks very poorly.

45:49Piers Morgan:Well, let me ask Mohammed this. So the argument that Israel is a threat to peace, the biggest threat to peace, some people on your side of this argument would say, is countered by the fact that the top 10 designated terrorist organisations in the world right now are all Muslim. ISIS, Al Qaeda, Boko Haram, Taliban, Al Shabaab, Hezbollah, Hamas, Lashkar al-Tabi, Islamic Jihad movement in Palestine, the Tariq Taliban in Pakistan, which prompts the question, why are so many Muslims clearly drawn to terrorism with these groups, do you think? Well, let's start with his non-answer, because I asked him a question, which in the beginning, he decided to, for some reason, he's not engaging with any question that I've put to him.

46:37I'm engaging with every single question, and people can see this. I asked him, give me an example. We've got 18 people that have died in America, American service people that have died for Israel. Give me an example of one Israeli that has died for an American war. And he went here, there...

46:51Piers Morgan:OK, well, look, viewers can see... Yeah, they can see that. Viewers can see. So they can also see I've asked you a question. You've asked me a question right now. What is the answer to that? Why are so many Muslims gravitating to these groups? Of course, there is an issue with Islamic terrorism. I mean, if someone is not concessionary with this issue and says that there is something called radical Islam, there are people who actually believe in killing civilians, there are people who believe in these kinds of things, then they would be obviously trying to fool the public. We're not trying to fool the public.

47:17But the designation of terrorist groups would fall into the legalistic fallacy. I mean, just because the West designates a certain group as a terrorist organisation, in those cases, I don't have a problem with that, but it doesn't do so, OK, with other groups, like, for example, Israel. This man here who I'm speaking to, who's a spokesperson, or a former spokesperson for the IDF, literally, and he's trying to run away from it, was justifying the targeting of civilians to the point where the interlocutor was astounded with what he was saying.

47:47Piers Morgan:Well, OK, but he... OK, what I would say to... What I would say to that... Hang on. Hang on. Hang on. Hang on a second, Jonathan. I'd like to answer here. Hang on. I know. I know what you're going to say, which is that the IDF did not deliberately target civilians. We've had that debate. He was saying that you should... He was telling the Americans should target civilians. That's not the point I'm going to make. The point I'm going to make is we've literally just had the American ambassador to Israel, Mike Huckabee, categorise some Israeli settlers as terrorists for what they're doing on the West Bank.

48:15Piers Morgan:Now, Danny Danon, Jonathan, who I interviewed earlier, the Israeli ambassador to the UN, he denied that categorisation. He said that is not right, it's wrong and not terrorist. What would you say? He's a terrorist himself. Well, I ask a question. He's an extremist himself. He's a radical. Jonathan's not a terrorist. I ask it in the context of you making a concession that you believe there are a number of terrorist Islamist organisations. So you've made that concession. My question for you, Jonathan, is in light of what Huckabee said, do you accept that there are Israeli terrorists? Very clearly so.

48:58and I've said it long before our good friend Huckabee said so. And, you know, you call a spade a spade. The behavior of some, a small group of people in Judea and Samaria, is despicable, condemnable, shouldn't be allowed, should be dealt with in a much more effective way by Israeli authorities, is not representative of the overwhelming majority of Israelis who live in Judea and Samaria. and very simply put, these are people that are acting outside the law and I think they should face the consequences of the law and they shouldn't be allowed to do what they're doing. And what about people like...

49:36Piers Morgan:By the way, it's an important thing you've just said and I think that both of you have made consensus, which I think viewers will look at it and go, good, all right, we're getting somewhere in this debate, we're getting some intellectual honesty. But let me ask you, Jonathan, my question is this, though. The Minister of National Security in Israel, Ben Gavir, criticised Israel's recent drawdown of strikes in Gaza by saying, I think targeted assassinations should be carried out in Gaza, taking down 30 to 40 every night. Not just those who pose an immediate threat. There are people there who are not worthy of life.

50:11Piers Morgan:They shouldn't live. They're not even people. He has the same view. I'm asking the question. He has the same view. I'm asking the question. Is that the language of a terrorist? I'll say this. First of all, we can see what Israel does. It does not conduct targeted... That wasn't my question. Yeah, but it's an important part to recognise the big difference... It's what he wants to do, and he is the national security minister. ..between talk of a politician that is, in my mind... But is it the language of a terrorist, Jonathan? No, it is reckless, it is ignorant, it is, I think, not really conducive to winning the war.

50:53If a Palestinian politician said that about Israelis,

50:59Piers Morgan:I think you would frame it as terrorism. If, Piers, they say it every day and night. They say that they will do October 7 again and again and again. But my point is... My point is, though, if the Israelis... Rather like with Danny Danon, who tried to draw a distinction between what Palestinians do on the West Bank to Israelis and what Israelis do to Palestinians. One is terrorism, one is not. I think, again, you're trying to make this distinction. And viewers will be like, well, how can it be any different? No, I'm not making that distinction. And I think I was pretty clear with my answer, the first answer, where I draw a very clear and distinguishable line between what is unlawful, vigilante, and in some cases, terrorist behaviour, and the fighting done by the state of Israel against an internationally recognised terror organisation, which is Hamas, which you just pointed out.

51:51And it's interesting to mention, you know, you said all of the long list of some of the Muslim terrorist organizations that exist and have been blacklisted. There are, of course, many, many others just in Gaza. There are many others and in Judea and Samaria and in Syria and Lebanon and in Yemen and in Iraq and many other places. It's full of extremist Muslim organizations that are terror organizations. and when you ask the question of why do so many of these why are all of these organizations muslim it is because in part they are implementing the obligation of jihad they are interpreting their religious teachings and they say well if we are obliged to conduct jihad and yes there are different types of jihad there's spiritual jihad etc etc but these lot these people are interpreting and saying, I'm going to do the very literary understanding of jihad, which is holy war against infidels and against people who think different than me.

52:54And I will show no mercy, not to civilians, not to women, anybody who is a non-believer, a kuffar, doesn't have the right to live and we shall strike them down. And if someone agrees to subjugate and become a second If we can't be a human class citizen under Islam, then we can allow him to live. How benign. That is the ISIS ideology. And by the way, coming back full circle to how we started this, many of those teachings come out of the Al-Azhar university. Many of the people who are the idealists... What I'd like to address this...

53:30Piers Morgan:Honestly, look, it's been an interesting debate. You've managed to keep it reasonably civilised with a few lapses into personal adhominations. Can I just respond to that? The point I would make is this, though. To me, it's an important concession by both of you that there are extremists on both sides who are committing acts of terrorism, right? What we need to do as a society, whether UK, whether it's America, wherever it is, Israel, Palestine, right? You need to eliminate extremists, right? That really is the challenge for where we find ourselves in the world right now. The big root problem of all of these situations is extremism.

54:08Piers Morgan:And I like the fact that both of you have conceded that you have terrorists in your mix. It's just an important concession to accept that there are limits beyond which certain members of your communities are going and committing acts of terrorism. So for that alone, I think this has been an interesting and important debate. Thank you both very much indeed. Piers Morgan, our sense that is proudly independent. The only boss around here is me. If you enjoy our show, We ask for only one simple thing. Hit subscribe on YouTube and follow Piers Morgan Uncensored on Spotify and Apple Podcasts. And in return, we will continue our mission to inform, irritate and entertain.

54:48Piers Morgan:And we'll do it all for free. Independent, uncensored media has never been more critical and we couldn't do it without you.

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