‘I’m SORRY!’ Kelsey Grammer Apologizes To Piers Morgan! Plus Jennifer Welch ‘Trump Facist’ Debate

20:53Kelsey Grammer:as a comfort. And, yeah, sometimes you can rail at God. And I love to, I think it was Dennis Prager I heard say this once, something about, someone said, well, how did he allow the concentration camps to happen? How did he allow what happened to the Jews to take place? And he said, well, I don't really think that's an arguing point for man to do a better job. Because, I mean, surely that was a man creation, not God's creation.

21:19Piers Morgan:Yeah. Your father, as I said, you were 13 when he was killed. And he was killed by a cab driver. It was a couple of days after, you mentioned this earlier, Martin Luther King was killed. There was a kind of political overtone to it all, you said. And you'd heard years later, they actually drew straws on who was going to kill him. It was an appalling, appalling thing to happen. But one of the many incredibly sad aspects of this was that he never got to see what a massive star you became. You know, one of the biggest television stars in American history. What do you think he would have made of what happened to you?

21:59Kelsey Grammer:Oh, Lord, I don't know. I didn't really know him. So it's an interesting sort of vacancy in my life. I mean, my dad was shot when he was 37 years old, or 38, right in there. And I went through something when I was the same age that was kind of life-threatening. And I thought, well, that's interesting.

22:24Kelsey Grammer:He was really young when he died. I mean, that was my first real sense of identifying with my dad, was that he was just getting started, honestly. He had a new family. He had four kids and a seemingly good relationship with his wife. He was teaching music down in the Virgin Islands, and somebody didn't like him, and they decided to kill him. for whatever set of reasons. So his life was stolen from him in a weird way. He was certainly stolen from me. I don't know if we would have ever developed a great relationship, but my sense of who he is and whether or not he would have been happy for what I became, I think he would have applauded the fact that I made the best I could of the life I was given.

23:11And I'm still working at it.

23:15Kelsey Grammer:This whole thing you mentioned about homeschooling, I homeschool my kids because I want them to grow up being able to read, to have an ability to confront knowledge without a lens or an overlay of political thinking or have some sort of vibration through it. Because, as I said, I'm going to digress for just a second, that the whole notion of our education system has been to leave our children empowered and full of self-respect and self-esteem. And they said, oh, low self-esteem is terrible. But then they tell their kids they come from a crap country. So I always thought, well, that's a really mixed message.

23:57Kelsey Grammer:And we hear, you know, I think it takes an extraordinary amount of arrogance and ignorance in a heady combination for people to say things like, well, Thomas Jefferson said all men are created equal, but he owned slaves. Thomas Jefferson was 33 years old when he wrote what is arguably one of the most important political documents in history. and anybody who thinks he wasn't aware that he was writing All Men Are Created Equal at the same time he understood that there was slavery in his life is just foolish. They're underestimating one of the greatest minds ever, ever, certainly in America, but maybe in the world.

24:41Kelsey Grammer:And the statement All Men Are Created Equal was a poison pill, basically, that said we're going to have to fight this out. And Thomas Jefferson, in his own presidency, introduced legislation saying we have to end slavery. It didn't pass, but in 1803, the notion of ending slavery was active in his mind and part of his legislative body, at least his attempt. And 60 years later, we fought a war to end it. But it could have ended a lot sooner. So Thomas Jefferson is not a person we should point out and say just an old guy in a wig. He was 33 years old when he wrote that.

25:18Piers Morgan:Exactly. It's so true and so worth reminding young people how young these guys were. A couple of just... This is fan questions, really, but Frasier, I loved it, obviously. You were brilliant in this. In 2023, Paramount brought it back.

25:36Kelsey Grammer:Thanks, Piers.

25:36Piers Morgan:But not really with most of the rest of the original cast, although you tried. The show got sort of sidelined in 2025 and may have been, as you've suggested in interviews, I think, a sort of victim of all the CBS, Paramount stuff and stuff sliding between the cracks and so on. Is there any more movement...

25:55Kelsey Grammer:A lot of gunplay going on there.

25:57Piers Morgan:Yeah, is there any movement on that, on Frazier? Do you think, is he gone now or is there hope?

26:04Kelsey Grammer:You don't... You know, you can never... You can never bury that guy because he's a pretty interesting character. He's as interesting as life itself. I think there's still a pathway to resurrecting the idea that Frazier and his son will sort of bookend the relationship that Frazier had with his father, Martin Crane, John Mahoney. There's a great story there still. So as long as there's a story that hasn't yet been told, maybe there's a place where it would find a home. You know, we'll see. I mean, I love Paramount. I've worked at Paramount my whole life. I mean, off and on since... I mean, I walked through the gates of Paramount when I was 29 years old, and I've been working there ever since.

26:51So that's a pretty big deal.

26:54Piers Morgan:You know, the only thing I have in common with you, Kelsey, career-wise, is my first day in Hollywood working was also on the Paramount movie lot through the Melrose gates because I was a judge on America's Got Talent, and that's where they filmed the first season. So you and I are very similar.

27:10Kelsey Grammer:Oh, my goodness. How about that? Yeah. Yeah, it's a great campus, kind of, isn't it? It's fantastic. And, Pierce, I want to apologise to you personally for leaving that day. There were some things in place that I'd been promised by the producer that didn't pan out, and I said, well, I can't be here.

27:28Piers Morgan:Well, it was funny because you were the only guest I ever had who left before we'd even started. I said, where's he gone? But we met...

27:37Kelsey Grammer:Why stage a big walkout on camera?

27:40Piers Morgan:Well, it was a great walkout, And I myself have been prone to a bit of walking out recently, so I can't exactly take the high moral ground. The other thing I wanted to ask you about is you played Sideshow Bob in The Simpsons. Again, I love that. And they're making a new Simpsons movie. You weren't in the first one nearly 20 years ago now, despite being a beloved character. There are rumours that you've recorded lines for this one or that you did for the first one and they got cut, but you may be in the new one. Any truth to this?

28:12Kelsey Grammer:Got it. Not that I know of. It's like, you may have a more direct line of the truth than I have, but I've been kept in the dark. Would you like to be in it? I have no idea. You know what? I always love to, but I've always thought that if it's, if Sideshow Bob's in it, it's about Sideshow Bob. You know, he sort of eclipses the storyline as a rule with his murderous presence. So, you know, that seems to be his note.

28:44Piers Morgan:Let's get back just to end with this American opus, because it is an extraordinary book. It's 30 kilograms, like I said, 800 pages long, forward by President Trump. It'll cost$250 or$2 ,500 for a marquee edition. Trump has signed the first edition, which we're going to give... ..which we're giving to the First Lady, you said, for her orphan auction, Fostering the Future.

29:12Kelsey Grammer:Right, to auction for a charity, yeah.

29:14Piers Morgan:Yeah, and it'll have a$1 million reserve. I'm sure it'll get that. So it's a pretty special thing to have. When you talk to your kids, Kelsey, just about America, how do you describe your great country?

29:31Kelsey Grammer:The land of the possible. And it enshrines the individual. What you want to try to do, this country will do everything it can to get you online, to get you focused on it and to help you to achieve it. All you have to do is ask and find it and fight for it. I mean, I have in my gym, I work out pretty much every day. I have three photographic portraits of Muhammad Ali. He was one of my favorite human beings. I was so, so grateful to have actually met him finally. I met him at the inauguration of George Bush II, you know, George Bush W. But he was a magnificent man. And, of course, you know, his infirmities had sort of caught up with him by the time I met him.

30:17Kelsey Grammer:But I had such admiration for him and for his stance politically against the Vietnam War and for his adopting his Muslim name, his black man's name, not his slave name, as he said. But see, he did that. He did that, and America embraced him for it. And yeah, they fought him for a while, and there's that great cover on Esquire, which is part of this book, I think. I've requested that it be part of it, where he has the arrows in him. And when he shot the show, he said, you know, this is Dean Rusk, this is the secretary of this or that. They came after him because he spoke out in a way that was honest and true, and sometimes the government wants to stop you.

31:03Kelsey Grammer:And I believe we have to always be very cautious about government getting too big, too powerful. And I like where Donald Trump has gone with it. But this is a great country. What would I tell my children? Dream as big as you possibly can, but be expected to take big action to get there. Don't ask anybody else to get you there. It won't happen that way.

31:29Piers Morgan:That's exactly what I tell my own kids, Kelsey. Great to talk to you again. Always love having a chat. I love this book. I think it's fantastic. I really appreciate your time, Kelsey. Take care.

31:40Kelsey Grammer:Likewise. Thank you, Piers. Good to see you.

31:42Piers Morgan:Well, very few commentators divide opinion as starkly as Jennifer Welch. Media figures have verisily described her as the long-awaited Joe Rogan of the left and a miserable, unhinged, radicalised wine mum. Whichever side you're on, she can't be accused of mincing her words. Welch often refers to the president as, quote, cankles McTaco tits, and to J.D. Vance as the smoky-eyed sociopath. Her viral tirades have provoked angry responses from the White House, but some Democrats believe this is exactly what their movement needs. MAGA Media is a shamelessly savage place, they say, and it's delivered a shamelessly savage president.

32:19Piers Morgan:Candidates like Abdullah Saeed and pundits like Welch are finally fighting fire with fire, they say. Well, not everyone's convinced that Democrats can win with a MAGA playbook. They argue that it's hard to take the high moral ground when you're in the gutter yourself and that America needs diplomacy, not division. Well, Welch has written a new book entitled Not Today Fascists and she joins me now. Jennifer, welcome to Uncensored. Thank you for having me. So, look, you've written this book, Not Today Fascists, which is an immediate triggering, I imagine, to all those who don't consider themselves fascists.

32:54Piers Morgan:Do you have any limit to what you're prepared to say or do as a political weapon when it comes to rhetoric? I mean, yeah, I would think that the limit would be saying things that are not true. I mean, it's true that the MAGA regime is fascist. I mean, every historian that I've interviewed on my podcast confirms this, their policies confirm this. But with this regime, you really don't have to lie. All you have to do is point out what they're doing, clearly, sharply, with probably a little bit of sass, and with a 30 % approval rating for this regime, it's caught on. My issue would be, not the name-calling and stuff, because Trump does that to all his opponents, and I kind of think, you know, sometimes you've got to fight fire with fire.

33:44Piers Morgan:So let's park that to one side. But my issue has been with the Democrats and Trump, really from the moment he first came on the sort of presidential scene back in 2015. The moment I hear people calling him a Nazi or liking Trumpism to Nazism, they lose me. And you've done this. You know, you said if any chicken shit, pearl clutches get their panties in a wad because we call Trump a fascist or a Nazi, step aside and let the grown-ups fight. I don't think it's grown up to use an analogy of Trump to Nazis. And the reason is Adolf Hitler was one of the most despicable genocidal monsters of modern times.

34:25Piers Morgan:He murdered 12 million people with his Nazis, including 6 million Jews in the Holocaust. You can hate Trump and you can have a lot of issues about the more authoritarian style that he's developed and so on. All those things can be debated. No one can look me in the eye with a straight face and say there is any comparison between Donald Trump and Adolf Hitler or Trumpism and Nazism. And I think you lose the argument when you do that. So when I asked you about the limit, you know, I was hoping you might say, well, on reflection, comparing him to Hitler and the Nazis probably isn't a good idea. Well, I mean, by your logic, Piers, your next guess should be J.D.

35:07Vance, because he called him America's Hitler. And I think he was wrong too. And then your guess after that would be all of the neocons that worked with Trump in Trump 1.0. All of the people who were in the rooms that actually provided a guardrail. Trump famously said, I want generals the same as Hitler. I want generals like Hitler's generals. His ex-wife said he had Mein Kampf on his nightstand. There's no question. I concede the point to you that Hitler is just an absolutely diabolical menace in the history book, should always be condemned. But I agree with J.D. Vance back before he was purchased by Peter Thiel that this man is America's Hitler, that he is stoking xenophobia, that he is scapegoating immigrants, scapegoating people in the LGBTQ plus community to distract from the fact that he is funneling money to all of these morally depraved billionaires that actually do want to come after wages.

36:10I mean, Elon Musk famously said this week that he wants robots to do one robot to do the job of five people. Well, where do those wages go of those five people? They go to the billionaires. Now, I don't think Trump has major ambitions like Hitler did. I don't think he's as organized and I think he's far too narcissistic. But I think that people who are exploiting Trump, these billionaires, Benjamin Netanyahu, who have clung on to him because he is so unprincipled that they can manipulate him. And Trump just likes to hate on people. It makes him feel good. It feeds his fragile ego.

36:46Piers Morgan:But does he hate on people any more than you hate him? I mean, again, one of my issues with the way the Democrats... I'm a podcaster. He's the president. No, I understand that, but I'm more liberal than not. My sensibilities are liberal, really, but old-fashioned liberal, not woke liberal. And one of my big problems with the kind of woke movement, other than the denial of basic science and biology and stuff, is that they would say the very things about Trump that they want him to stop saying about everybody else. They would behave often like the very fascists they profess to hate most, whilst also branding Trump a fascist.

37:20Piers Morgan:In other words, there is an argument, as Michelle Obama always famously said, you know, when they go low, we go high. It seems to me you've made a calculation and many people cheer you on for it, that when they go low, we go lower, and it's a deliberate thing. And you are, you know, you're a podcaster, I get that, and a very successful and popular one. But is it a smart political tactic to go this way with Trump, or is there a better way to defeat him? I wish I lived in a country where we didn't have to speak this way about the president. I wish we didn't have to have this conversation, peers, about the president and the way he speaks about women, the way he speaks about deceased service members as being suckers and losers, but that's where we are.

38:06And the buck stops with him. Now, as it pertains to all of the wokeism and all of that, I don't subscribe to that. Trump's an asshole, and I'm going to call him an asshole. And Trump's name calling is not nearly as offensive to me as his policies are. Right now, we have concentration camps in the United States of America. We have children appearing in front of judges without attorneys. We have people that are being deported.

38:33Piers Morgan:When you say concentration camps, again, that invokes memories of actual concentration camps in World War II where millions of Jews were gassed in gas chambers. Why use that kind of language? Because concentration camps were also used in the United States for the Japanese. I mean, this isn't... You're saying it's happening now under Trump. Where are these... Jennifer, where are these concentration camps in America today? They're all over the United States. Concentration camps where there are literally millions of people are being exterminated, because that's what you're saying. OK, Piers, you were talking about Nazi concentration camps, but historians...

39:13I'm talking about prisons in the United States are holding facilities where they are concentrating people without due process that they have deemed, through the Kavanaugh rule of the Supreme Court, where you can just say, oh, they look like they might be illegal, and then lock them up. But did you feel...

39:32Piers Morgan:Were you as angry, though... Sorry to interrupt you, but were you as angry when Obama did this? Because Obama, as you know, I'm sure you know, deported more people in eight years, pro rata per year, than any American president in history, way more than Trump. He put loads of people into caged facilities. He spit up loads of families. He had kids on their own and so on. He did all the things which I see my Liberal friends and Democrats raging that Trump does. And I'm like, well, where was the rage about Obama when he was doing it on a far bigger scale? Well, I think that he followed the law. They had due process.

40:08Piers Morgan:Well, they did many of them. Trump's regime is killing Renee Nicole Good. I mean, he deported... Obama deported three million people. I mean, you know, where was the rage? Legally, legally, did he send people back to their... non-country of origins? A lot of people thought a lot of it was not legal. That's the point. Did Obama send people back to their country of non-origins? Did he send people from El Salvador to Africa? Did he? Because if he did, let's have that conversation and let's rip him for it. Well, if you care... OK, let's talk about Obama and the law for a moment. Because, you know, I liked Obama.

40:37Piers Morgan:I thought Obama was a pretty good president in many ways, but I thought he also... He was a shameless hypocrite in many ways, too, as most presidents turn out to be. You know, he was a guy who was a lawyer who campaigned in 08-09 on shutting down Guantanamo Bay, for example, because it was an illegal place, he viewed it. And yet it's still open today. He had eight years to shut that down and never did. He encouraged the continuation of what many people to be an illegal torture chamber, right? Secondly, he weighed a lot of what many people view to be illegal drone programmes, right, killing thousands of innocent people.

41:12Piers Morgan:And again, it's simply about... Trump, when he does stuff, inspires phenomenal rage from people on the left. And I'm always like, OK, but where was that rage, if you're being intellectually honest, with presidents like Obama when they were doing stuff that they were doing or when they were blinking over chemical weapons red lines with Syria and Putin, which allowed him to take power there and so on? There were lots of things which I think, if people were being honest, they should have been rageful about Obama, that they've been saving for Trump. So I think there's a double standard there. Well, let's be honest.

41:47I will critique Obama. I think just giving a pass to the Bush administration for lying and taking us into war with Iraq, not prosecuting war crimes as it pertains to Abu Ghraib, was a mistake. And one could even further argue that that incubated the breakdown in what has incubated this fascism that Trump is governing with. I think the corporate welfare, the government welfare that we gave all of the big banks, set up a government where the Democratic Party services corporations more than they do the working class people. So I agree with you. There is criticism to be had there. And as we look back to a lot of these governments, whether they're Republican or Democrat, after the Citizens United ruling, what we see is a two-party system that first services corporations, first and foremost, and then the people get lost.

42:43And that's why you see progressive candidates popping up all over the place. But, Piers, you're right that when Obama was in office, I didn't have as many critiques. But I think there's been a great awakening to the policies of Trump, the cruelty, the racism, the watching Renee Nicole Good get shot in cold blood and then the guy calling her a fucking bitch. And then people in Kristi Noem's DHS calling her a domestic terrorist. No investigation into that murder whatsoever. The same with Alex Preddy. And I think what you're seeing is an electorate all over middle America that is shifting further to the left, away from this two-party system that services corporations while lying to us.

43:30But do you feel... I don't think...

43:32Piers Morgan:I wouldn't dispute that. I think that is clearly happening in many places. And I know that you're... I think you're a fan of AOC and Polly Market's market on the Democratic presidential nominees for 2028 as AOC and Malid on 20%. I know she's appeared on your podcast and so on. But, you know, many people look at AOC and they say, OK, you've got the rise of the democratic socialists and you've got AOC, who's always been a kind of democratic socialist, I think, now moving very, very fast to the middle, you know, abandoning wokeism, saying woke one was crazy, right? Well, we all called it crazy when it was happening.

44:10Piers Morgan:Now she, having endorsed it all, now says it's crazy. And you see this time and again, I think, with a lot of candidates where I think they're being, again, intellectually a bit dishonest, right? Be true to yourself. But the question then becomes, can somebody who's a genuine socialist, a genuine socialist, can they actually win real power in America? And can socialism actually work in America? Because historically around the world, it's almost impossible to find anywhere where socialism has been a success. I don't think that's the proposal. I think the proposal is to have a system that doesn't prioritize corporate interests at top.

44:50What I would like to say is I think the Democratic Party needs to return to the party of FDR, a party that really regulates capitalism to protect public safety. Right now, we have killer blueberries. We're buying, you know, contaminated beef. People are dropping dead of measles. It's just a disaster. Unregulated capitalism keeps us less safe. But I like capitalism. I've been successful in capitalism. And I think it's honest to have a fair conversation that this whole free market wealth will trickle down. It's kind of bullshit. It didn't really work. It hasn't worked. It's created massive wage inequality.

45:31And it's getting so much bigger under Trump. I mean, the wealth that these tech oligarchs have made just in two years, the wealth that Donald Trump has made in just two years is really breathtaking. And so I don't see a candidate that is full blown like I'm a full blown socialist. I mean, even I live in New York now. I'm from Oklahoma City. But even Zoran is making reducing regulations to make it easier for small business owners to open up like the red tape that you would have to go through to open up a business. And so I think the best mixture of this for America is to return to FDR, who regulated capitalism in a way to protect it, but more than that, to protect people.

46:14I think the big mistake in conversations like this is that the pitch... I've never heard anybody, any candidate that's running anywhere that has won, pitch a full-blown socialist state. I haven't heard that, nor do I know of a candidate that has won that has pushed that from Zoran to Abdul to AOC.

46:34Piers Morgan:I mean, I think they're all... The three you just mentioned are excellent communicators. You know, I watch them performing. They're young, they're dynamic, They're great talkers. You know, they're very likeable, actually, in different ways, all of them. And I can see why people... Why they resonate with people. I'm just not sure what would happen if one of them got actual federal power, right? If one became president of the United States, if AOC became president, what AOC do we get? Do we get the one that we thought she was or do we get the one who now says wokeism was crazy? You know, I'm a little bit confused.

47:10I mean, I think you're giving too much credit. to her saying, woke one was crazy. First and foremost, if we're going to talk about intellectual honesty, she said, oh, this friend of mine said woke one was crazy. I think what she's talking about, which is something we've all had it with, whether you're on the right or if you're on the left, is this just hyper-policing of what everybody says all the time. I don't think there's a planet in the United States of America where if AOC wins president, that she's going to dismantle capitalism. I just think that is insane. I think it's a scare tactic that's used.

47:44Money talks in this country and it's always going to talk in this country. But how can we form a government that helps people live out of poverty? I mean, the grossest thing about the United States, one of the grossest things is if you'd like take Walmart, Walmart pays its workers minimum wage. They can't live. They cannot afford child care, health care. If you get a cavity, they can't afford to get it filled. So then they have to go get on government stamps to subsidize their pay. And the Republican Party does this whole thing. Oh, these moochers, these people that are mooching on food stamps, you know, it's like they have it so good.

48:22But really the moochers in this situation are the Walton family. They have plenty of money. They have bank accounts that could choke a bull. They could easily, easily pay their employees a livable wage and provide health insurance for them to give them a little bit of dignity. But And instead, the system is set up to where we are really favoring oligarchy and corporate welfare. And that it's just not sustainable. And it created this situation where so many voters, 77 million to be exact peers, felt like they wanted a non-status quo candidate. And they thought, well, Trump can't be bought. He's already a rich guy.

49:04So they fell for it and they bought it. And look at what he's now. He's even richer. It turns out he actually can be bought. And I think the politicians like Abdul, like Zoran, like AOC are reminding Americans that we do not have to beg for wages. It's insane what is happening in the wealth gap here. It's immoral that people have to file bankruptcy for medical bills. And it's even further immoral that so many people die because they can't access health care. But yet these corporations and the Republican Party have the audacity to tell these working class people they're lazy. And that's just a trope that started with Reagan that has continued.

49:49And I think there's a great awakening to address these issues and form a government that delivers for its people in a material way.

49:59Piers Morgan:Listen, I don't disagree with a lot of what you just said. Would you describe yourself as pro-women? Yes. OK, so I want to talk about two women where I would quibble with your claim to be pro-women, because I don't understand why you've gone after them in quite the way you have. One is Erica Kirk. So we have the case against Tyler Robinson moving to trial now. It looks increasingly likely that he's pled not guilty, but all the evidence is pretty overwhelming that he did do this. And you've said things like, you know, I mean, there's a sort here, I want to play you, of you talking about Erica. Let's listen.

50:34I think Erica Kirk is a terrible person. I think Erica Kirk was married to a racist, a homophobe, a grifter, and I think she has picked up exactly where Charlie Kirk left off.

50:46Piers Morgan:Erica Kirk, I don't know her personally, I've never interviewed her, but she's a grieving widow who watched her husband and father of her two kids getting assassinated in front of her. It's one of the most harrowing things of modern times, the assassination of Charlie Kirk. Do you not feel uncomfortable going after Erica Kirk, a grieving widow in that way? I mean, you've done it multiple times. I'm just curious... You know, Candace Owens does it with impunity, and I find that pretty repellent too. How do you equate being pro-women with going after her and kind of going after her because of who she was married to as well?

51:24Well, Erica Kirk, no, I don't. I do not regret it. And oftentimes when I see that, I don't think I go far enough. Erica Kirk and Charlie Kirk peddled racism, homophobia. She has recently been talking about white male men. And she talks about her message to women is have children even if you can't afford them. I go after Erica Kirk because she is an anti-woman woman. She is attacking people at universities. And Piers, I grew up in the buckle of the Bible Belt in Oklahoma City. And so many of my friends were deeply, deeply indoctrinated by their uber-religious parents. They think the earth is 6 ,000 years old, that man lived with dinosaurs at the same time, that Noah's Ark happened for real.

52:15Absolutely no critical thinking. That's of the devil. and the only hope they have to kind of get out of this indoctrination is to go to a university. And how insidious and pernicious is it for these grifters to go to universities and prey on people at a time where they can get out from under their parents' wing and discover and explore who they are. So I will always stand with the LGBTQ plus community, but furthermore, I'll stand with Black Americans. And I might have a tinge of respect for Erica Kirk if she were to talk about what really killed her husband, which is guns. Guns killed your husband, Erica.

52:59And what's so fascinating, fascinating about Turning Point, two people started it, Charlie Kirk and this guy that's like 70-something years old. They talked about vaccines are terrible. Nobody should get vaccinated. And Charlie talked about everybody needs to have access to guns. Even if people die, everybody has to have access to guns. Well, the 70-year-old died of COVID because he didn't get vaccinated. And then Charlie, of course, died of a gunshot wound. If this were a widow that was saying, I want to address the gun epidemic in the United States of America, I want to address this senseless shooting of people on a university, on a bright, sunny day, using the First Amendment, even though I disagreed with everything Charlie Kirk had to say, I support his right...

53:44Piers Morgan:But my argument would be about this, that Charlie Kirk would go to universities, he'd set up his stand, and he would literally say, prove me wrong, and he'd have democratic debate with people who disagreed with him. And I thought that was good. That's how it should be. It's how a democracy should run. He wasn't saying, I'm completely right about everything. He said, prove me wrong. Prove me wrong. I have my position, you can have yours. When I get on an airplane, if the pilot's black, I'm going to think twice. Well, it was more nuanced. It was just over-racism. It was more nuanced than that. And I would say...

54:15Piers Morgan:Not really. My argument, I guess, about you going after Erica Kirk is you're kind of going after, for what you perceive to be, the sins of her husband. And you've also gone after... No. Well, I would add Natalie Hart to this, who you've called a bunny boiler. Oh, yeah. Because I know Natalie a bit, right? Natalie Hart, from my experience, is an incredibly hard-working employee at the White House who works with Trump and, to me, has done nothing wrong to deserve the appalling attacks on her Do you not, again, as a pro-woman person, as you claim to be, do you not feel a bit, like, uncomfortable about targeting Natalie Harbour, who's just an assistant...

54:55Piers Morgan:No, not even remotely. ..working long hours, working for trouble? Not even remotely uncomfortable. Really? Not even remotely uncomfortable. I stand by it that she's a bunny boiler because we have a regime every single day that goes out and tries to erode civil liberties that is tearing down the institutions of this country. They are gender-washing fascism. They are using their gender to send a message to women that we will gender-wash this, this will make it OK. But she is literally just posting things she's told to do by her boss. That's her job. Well, you know what? She has agency and autonomy.

55:32The Republican Party is the party of personal accountability.

55:35Piers Morgan:Did you publicly call Barack Obama's female staff bunny boilers because they publicly... No, because they didn't send batshit crazy... Crazy stalker letters to him. But that's the point I would say you don't... A, you don't know what correspondence went on between Obama and his female... I do. I've seen it. Actually, you don't. You don't, actually. Oh, not Obama's. No, I haven't seen it. Right. So my point is, A, you're making a supposition you don't know the answer to. But secondly, it wouldn't have crossed your mind to attack Obama's female staffers in that way. Listen, listen. But you don't hesitate.

56:08If somebody wrote those letters about Obama, They went bananas about the tan suit for two weeks. If he had an aide that wrote those bunny boiler letters to him, I don't know if the ERs in New York could contain the Fox News blood rates. It would be wall to wall coverage. It was a day or two cover here. You mean everything in the world to me. And then there's the picture of her sprinting after him. I mean, he's a weird ass guy. This is the party that lectures everybody about family values. And Melania, in her documentary, made sure that the world knew, I don't sleep with this man. I say goodnight to him, I go to this bedroom.

56:47She didn't say that. He goes to this bedroom. She didn't say that. She didn't say that. You just made that up. She showed it. No, she showed it in her documentary. Oh, no, she didn't. She went one way. You just made that up. She absolutely did not. I absolutely did not.

56:57Piers Morgan:And again, that's not very pro-women to make that up. So your argument is that as a pro-woman... My argument is you're attacking Erica Kirk, you're attacking Erica Kirk, a grieving widow. That I can't attack... Well, hang on, no, no. You can't attack women, but attack women's right. My argument is, listen, I happen to think you're great and I like watching your podcast and I agree with you about some of the things you say. But when you say you're pro-women, I don't think it's very pro-women to target a grieving widow because you don't like her husband or what he said. And I don't think it's pro-women to target a female staffer of the president for stuff that he's doing or saying that she just happens to post on social media.

57:35Piers Morgan:And I don't think... You just... Popper Melania, making up a fact that you don't know that's true at all. Let me clarify. But she doesn't sleep with her husband. So there's three women you're targeting because of their husbands or bosses. That's not pro-women. Let me clarify, Piers. I do not like Erica Kirk because Erica Kirk sends a message to women that is dangerous for them. It is dangerous to tell women to breed immediately, even if you can't afford it. I think that is a dangerous message for women, while at the same time they are trying to lessen the rights that women have to divorce women in certain states, particularly red states.

58:17I don't like Natalie Harp because she works for a man who appointed the Supreme Court justices that have taken the rights of women away in my own home state to where if they are raped right now, if you were raped in the state of Oklahoma, you have absolutely nothing you can do privately with your body. You have to go in a car and drive out of state to go try to receive medical care. And I think that's ridiculous. I think it's... And so women that are carrying the water for the patriarchy often are the first to drown. And so I do not support women that carry water for the patriarchy. Period. Full stop.

58:55You want to call me a hypocrite? That's totally fine. But I triple down, quadruple down. And as far as these women... No, I wouldn't call you a hypocrite. I would just say, I think next time I ask you... For the patriarchy.

59:04Piers Morgan:No, I'd say next time I say, are you pro-women, you should say I'm pro-some women. That's fair. OK. That's fair. I'll give you that. OK. I'm pro-pro-women. How about that? No, you're pro-women that you like. No, no. Yes, you are. No, I'm pro-women that are pro-women. Now you're making shit up, Piers. Let's leave it on that note. It's been good talking to you, Jennifer. Come back. I enjoyed it. Your book is Not Today Fascist, and your host of I've Had It. Good to have you. Jennifer Welsh, thank you very much. Thanks, Piers. Well, joining me now is Isabel Brown, host of The Daily Wire's Isabel Brown.

59:46Piers Morgan:So, Isabel, you were shaking your head quite violently, I'm told, during some of that exchange. So, your reaction to that interview? It certainly was fiery, Piers. I wish that I was sticking around to have this conversation with Jennifer, although I hear maybe there was a lack of propensity for an open dialogue or an honest debate about what it really means to be pro-woman. So, perhaps we'll have to have that one in the future. Look, I've had it ultimately with the poisonous garbage that women like this spew all over the Internet, insisting that we're trying to run away from a fascist culture and that a Nazi president has created a fascist regime in America that's taking away all of women's rights.

1:00:24I hear this every day from Jennifer Welch's podcast and thousands of other women who have very prominent followings on social media, when it is these people who consistently are saying the actual violent rhetoric that is tearing our society apart across Western civilization. Look, you heard Jennifer just say a few minutes ago she's so concerned about public safety in the United States of America, and yet this is a woman who is repeatedly spewing the same violent garbage rhetoric that's feeding into physical manifestations of violence. You played a clip of her calling Erica Kirk some pretty nasty names.

1:00:56On a separate episode of her show, she called Erica the most evil woman alive on the face of the earth and the devil incarnate and said that Charlie's horrible rhetoric that he spewed throughout his career justified his assassination that so tragically took place almost exactly a year ago today. It is because of normalization of that violent rhetoric that we've seen people take to the streets celebrating Charlie's assassination and impact so many other parts of American culture. Look at the last two weeks in America online with thousands of liberal white women trying to justify a woman violently strangling her own three children to death because of feminism.

1:01:33I don't want to live in a society that says that is pro-woman, and I hope that more women in my generation feel the same way.

1:01:39Piers Morgan:What you're seeing with people like Jennifer Welch and others is where they perceive President Trump and the Republicans going low, they're prepared to go as low, if not lower, in terms of incendiary rhetoric. You know, do you have any concerns about the way Donald Trump talks to and about women, for example? Or just generally about when he trash talks people? You know, I've known him a long time. I like him personally. We get on very well. But I wince quite a lot when he goes after people in a very personal way. You know, there is a sort of sense that it's trickled down from the top, this stuff, and that you're going to get people like Jennifer Welch returning fire with fire if the President of the United States is the one doing most of the trash talking.

1:02:25Yeah, Piers, I lost you in those last couple sentences there. I hope our team can fix the audio on that front. But as for going low and going lower, look, this is the new reality of the Democrat Party and it's not just people with podcasts and platforms on the internet, although that certainly is the case with what we're seeing from the Jennifer Welches of the world. This is also coming from people running for public office. Look at my home state of Colorado, where a leading candidate for the United States Congress has said on stage that the United States of America deserved the 9-11 attacks, which we will celebrate the 25th anniversary of this week.

1:02:56You have people coming from families who actually donated financial support to terrorist organizations running for office for the U.S. Senate and being literal terrorist sympathizers. This is a very dark place for the political left in America to be progressing. And as we continue normalizing far, far left radical socialism from an authoritarian perspective, you're also seeing the normalization of political violence alongside that. The Department of Health and Human Services just put out a fascinating study this last week that said the more you tend to agree with authoritarian left wing policies and the more you tend to personally identify with pro LGBTQ plus messaging, the more likely you are to say that political violence is justified in America, which is how we arrived at a time where one in six Americans support the Luigi Mangione assassination of the UnitedHealthcare CEO.

1:03:48and you've seen so much of this radical violence become normalised online. I hope it's a wake-up call for people because the only thing that's pushing us further into a fascist authoritarian society is a world where you're not allowed to think for yourself and you're not allowed to have open dialogue and debate, which I'm only seeing perpetuated by the political left, not the right today.

1:04:09Piers Morgan:I mean, I see a lot on both sides I don't like. I do think, though, it's a particular aspect of the hard left this sort of lionisation of people who've done terrible things. You know, whatever you think of a Lindsay Clancy case, I think it's complicated. I do think there is this postpartum depression, psychosis. I think it's a real thing. I don't think she could have been acting rationally. What mother would kill her three children that way? But nor do I think she should be hero worshipped by a kind of fan club cheering and saluting her outside a courtroom. What happened was a terrible tragedy, but it was also...

1:04:51Piers Morgan:It ended the lives of three young children. And I've got four kids myself. This is a terrible thing that happened. And no-one should be hero-worshipping the person who did it, notwithstanding it may be that a jury eventually concludes that she was acting beyond her rationality. And we'll see. But I just think it's the secondary part. And the same with Luigi Mangione. The way that he got hero-worshipped. We saw it with the Zanaev brothers who perpetrated the Boston Marathon bombing. I remember being on air at CNN and being disgusted. I think Rolling Stone did a cover on these guys, making them look like rock stars.

1:05:28Piers Morgan:And what is happening to society when people blow up innocent people or murder husbands and fathers in the street because they don't like the jobs that they do running healthcare companies? or, you know, they kill three children because they're disturbed. What makes people want to hero-worship them? I don't get it. Yeah, I think with the Lindsay Clancy case, Piers, it's important for us to zoom in here and look at the fallout of the cultural messaging that's coming from the court of public opinion because now you're starting to see this impact a court of law as well. Just last night, a middle-aged woman was arrested for trying to intimidate the jury by taping videos of the jurors coming out of the courtroom, presumably so that she could dox their identities if indeed they convicted this woman of first degree murder, which I know there's been a lot of controversy about.

1:06:19I actually think it's been a huge disservice to an honest conversation about postpartum depression and postpartum psychosis because Lindsay Clancy was never once diagnosed with postpartum depression or psychosis from any of the multitude of doctors that she was seeing. So it's a masterful skill in messaging that from her legal defense team that's garnered a lot of sympathy and public support for this particular defendant in this case. Unfortunately, that has now twisted the meaning of what postpartum depression and postpartum psychosis actually means. And it's preventing us from really helping women who actually need our help and certainly is not delivering justice to these three beautiful children.

1:06:54But I can just tell you anecdotally what I'm seeing in my comment section on social media and the posts that I'm seeing on TikTok, Instagram and Twitter are thousands upon thousands of women saying same Lindsay. That could have been me. I could have been in the same situation. I too sometimes think about killing my children. And I have to know that this is a symptom of a much larger societal disease that is encouraging us to devalue human life, not just in the people that we disagree with, certainly in the realm of political violence, but even for our own innocent babies. And I don't think we can continue living in a culture like that and still call it a functioning society.

1:07:30Piers Morgan:No, and I also think there's a big issue with over-medication in the United States. I mean, I said yesterday, and my American I can guess was shocked when I said it, but it's a fact that 80 % of the world's painkillers get consumed by Americans. I mean, that fact alone should horrify Americans. It's like, why are we taking so much medication just on painkillers, never mind everything else? And she was medicated with all sorts of stuff. I just don't think that helps an already disturbed mind. It just makes things a lot worse. I think in her case it's clear. On positive news, Isabel, I'd like to end by congratulating it, because you announced this week you're expecting your second child during the winter, a little brother to your first child, your daughter Isla.

1:08:11Piers Morgan:Many congratulations to you. Thank you, Piers. We're so excited and just can't wait to welcome this blessing into our family. Well, I wish you all the very best to all of you and thanks for joining me on Our Censored.

1:08:22Kelsey Grammer:Thank you.

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