In short
Episode topic: South Africa’s accusation that Israel is “cleansing” Gaza by sending Palestinians to South Africa on “bogus humanitarian flights,” and a broader debate over genocide/ethnic cleansing claims, plus a personal dispute about whether Ambassador Ebrahim Rasool is tied to Hamas/Muslim Brotherhood figures.
Guests and backgrounds
Ebrahim Rasool, former South African ambassador to the United States; Emily Schrader, Israeli-American journalist.
Key claims
Rasool argues the flights are meant to pressure South Africa morally, but that “voluntary departure” is limited by Gaza conditions and return is unlikely while Israel controls territory. Schrader says South Africa knew because Israel’s KOGAT approved exits via a third country (named as South Africa), and that Israel’s policy allows people to come back if they choose; she rejects genocide/ethnic-cleansing framing and calls South Africa hypocritical.
Notable examples
prior Gaza flight (Oct 29) bringing 100 Palestinians; Rasool’s past comments on Donald Trump “white supremacist” instincts; Rasool’s alleged praise/association with Yusuf al-Qaradawi and Ismail Haniyeh; Schrader cites Rasool-linked fundraisers and Hamas-linked affiliations; discussion of a UN-adopted 20-point ceasefire/peace plan and skepticism about UN peacekeeping forces.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOAccusations Against Israel
0:33 to 1:50
Discussion on accusations of Israel's ethnic cleansing of Gaza.
“I think it's ridiculous that South Africa is claiming that they didn't know about it.”
Uncovering the Flights
2:03 to 3:21
Exploration of the mysterious flights taking Palestinians out of Gaza.
“Do the people on them know where they're being sent?”
Debate on Voluntary Departure
3:21 to 5:27
Debate on whether the departure of Palestinians is voluntary or coerced.
“That's not, when you're doing that voluntarily, you're paying for the pleasure of doing it, people would argue that's not ethnic cleansing.”
Criticism of South Africa's Position
5:27 to 6:34
Criticism of South Africa's position on receiving Palestinian refugees.
“As Abraham said, you know, many people on these flights would categorize what they're fleeing as being a genocide.”
Accusations Against Donald Trump
6:34 to 8:01
Discussion on Donald Trump's accusations and actions regarding South Africa.
“Last year, he brought in 59 medical students and doctors to South Africa from the Gaza Strip specifically.”
Responses to Accusations
8:01 to 8:52
Responses to accusations of white supremacy related to Trump.
“There's no embarrassment for South Africa.”
Links to Extremism
8:52 to 11:15
Emily Schrader questions Ebrahim Rasool about his associations with extremism.
“And so the point that I'm making is that there's no rational explanation except that there is an instinct at play, and I called it a supremacist instinct.”
Confrontation Over Allegations
11:15 to 14:00
A direct confrontation on the allegations against Rasool and his connections.
“Well, it's probably not unconnected, Emily, to the fact that South Africa has been so strident about Israel, one of America's top allies, of course.”
Israel and Hamas: A Complex Discussion
14:00 to 15:44
Exploring the complexity of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, including controversial figures and statements.
“In the central synagogue of Cape Town mourning with Jews.”
Israel and Hamas: A Complex Discussion
16:02 to 16:55
Exploring the complexity of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, including controversial figures and statements.
“One Skin is redefining skincare with cult favourites like OS1 Body, Face and Eye, built around their patented OS1 peptide, which is clinically proven to target senescent cells, a key driver of skin ageing.”
Show all 17 chapters
Condemnation of Violence: A Faith Perspective
16:55 to 19:53
Discussion on the morality of violence and the condemnation of killing innocent civilians.
“so please support our show and tell them that we sent you.”
Defining Extremism in Modern Conflicts
19:53 to 23:19
Examining the definitions of extremism and legitimate resistance in conflicts.
“I mean, I'm stunned you've evoked the name of Nelson Mandela.”
Genocide and International Law
23:19 to 24:25
Debating the definitions and accusations of genocide in the context of the Israel-Palestine conflict.
“And there's nothing legitimate about what happened from October 8th onwards.”
Peace Plans and Their Challenges
24:25 to 28:01
Discussing the potential for peace in the region amidst ongoing violence and challenges.
“We used the kind of work that the definition of genocide that was done after World War II and beautifully accurately...”
Discussing the Disarmament of Hamas
28:01 to 30:02
Learn about the challenges of disarming Hamas and the implications for Gaza's future.
“The Lebanese government has repeatedly failed to disarm Hezbollah.”
The Complexity of Peace and Genocide
30:02 to 31:06
Explore the nuanced discussion around genocide, ceasefires, and the role of political figures in the Israel-Palestine conflict.
“And if Israel is being taken down a line away from genocide to a peaceful resolution, who would you credit with making them do that?”
Debating Trump's Role in Peace Efforts
31:06 to 31:36
Delve into the controversial opinions surrounding Trump's influence on peace in the Middle East.
“Whichever way you want to categorise it, if Trump has frog-marched Israel to peace, why would he not bring up the Nobel Peace Prize?”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00Whatever your thing, it could be anything. Canva helps you make that thing a thing. Canva is a simple online tool thing. It's a way to design with our magic AI tool things. You can social media your thing, generate images or videos of your thing, make decks or presentations to show your thing. Whatever needs to be done for your thing, Canva can make it an even better and bigger thing. Canva, the thing that makes anything a thing.
0:32Piers Morgan:What are these planes? Who is sending them?
0:36Emily Schrader:I think it's ridiculous that South Africa is claiming that they didn't know about it. You can't charter a plane without having those coordinates approved ahead of time. They knew that this was happening. The South African government would act in a way which morally compromises its position on the genocide, but not be party to the idea of an ethnic cleansing.
0:58Piers Morgan:Do you really believe Donald Trump is a white supremacist? I think he has mobilized that instinct.
1:02Emily Schrader:I do find it highly ironic that someone who effectively is an Islamist supremacist is accusing someone else of being a white supremacist. You don't know me. I don't appreciate people who are lying. You don't know me. Who are lying to my face. You are the age shouting does not assert the truth. When you get into that personal zone of calling me a liar, then I know that you are desperate for answers.
1:26Piers Morgan:Israel is ethnically cleansing Gaza by flying Palestinians out of the country on bogus humanitarian flights. That is the accusation made by the South African government after another plane from Gaza landed in the country in mysterious circumstances. Israel hasn't responded formally to the allegation, but it has a strained relationship with South Africa already because it's filed a formal genocided case against Israel at the ICJ. Which will mean to discuss that and more are Ebrahim Rasul. He's a former South African ambassador to the United States. And no stranger to Uncensored, the Israeli-American journalist Emily Schrader.
1:59Piers Morgan:Well, welcome to both of you. Ebrahim, welcome to Uncensored. First time you've been on. What's going on here? What are these planes? Who is sending them? Do the people on them know where they're being sent? Are they willing participants, do you think? I'm not privy to the motives of the people who are on the plane. But I do think that we are beginning to uncover some Albanian connections to Israeli intelligence that have brought those planes. They've not decanted the people in Nairobi, brought them straight to Johannesburg. It was an idea to create a quandary for the South African government.
2:38And hopefully the South African government would act in a way which morally compromises its position on the genocide in Israel. And I think the South African government, after considering it, decided, let us do the humanitarian thing, accept it, but not be party to the idea of an ethnic cleansing by being a recipient of people who will never be able to go back while Israel controls the territory.
3:06Piers Morgan:I'll come to Emily about this, but the argument against the charge of ethnic cleansing is these people have paid money to be on these planes willingly. They may not know exactly where they're going, but they want to leave Gaza. And the fact they're ending up in South Africa for them is good. They want to leave Gaza. That's not, when you're doing that voluntarily, you're paying for the pleasure of doing it, people would argue that's not ethnic cleansing. That's a voluntary thing that you're doing. I think that's why I'm not going into the motives of the people involved, but I do go into the idea that people who voluntarily may want to leave a powder keg will never be allowed to get back.
3:46And that, I think, is what is the suspicious matter about it.
3:50Piers Morgan:OK, Emily, interestingly, the Israeli military body Kogat, which controls Gaza crossings, said in a statement, the residents left the Gaza Strip after Kogat received approval from a third country to receive them. It didn't specify the name of the country, but actually yesterday or Monday, it did name South Africa as being that country. So they're clearly saying South Africa knew about this. They presumably agreed to receive these people. Like I say, these people expressed a desire to leave Gaza. What's your view of what's happened here?
4:24Emily Schrader:Well, I think it's ridiculous that South Africa is claiming that they didn't know about it. You can't charter a plane without having those coordinates approved ahead of time. There was a connection in Kenya as well, so they knew that this was happening. It doesn't... The associations with the Israeli government have not been proven in any capacity other than the fact they approved the exit of these people from Gaza. And not only that, but the prime minister's office stated exclusively, explicitly, excuse me, that they are approving people to come in and to come out. They should be allowed to leave if they want to leave, and they should be allowed to come back if they want to come back.
4:55Emily Schrader:That is the policy. And the reason that it's controversial now, especially in the eyes of South Africa, this isn't new. There was another flight on October, I believe it was 29th, of another 100 Palestinians from Gaza. But the reason that it's a controversy now is because the only other agency that was operating, which is Egyptian, has been shut down because they shut down the Rafah crossing. So now because they're going through Israel and because they're getting approval from Israel, South Africa doesn't want to accept them and they're looking for an excuse to blame Israel for something despite the fact that in fact these people are actually being moved out of harm's way.
5:26Emily Schrader:They're paying their own way to exit the Gaza Strip and they will be allowed to return if that's what they so choose.
5:32Piers Morgan:As Abraham said, you know, many people on these flights would categorize what they're fleeing as being a genocide. South Africa has led the global allegation that Israel is committing a genocide in Gaza. What's your response to that?
5:49Emily Schrader:Well, I think, obviously, I object this classification, but I also think that it's highly ironic that South Africa is claiming that, while at the same time claiming that they don't want to let in people who are allegedly fleeing a genocide. So there's a lot of hypocrisy going around, especially when it comes to South Africa. And we've seen that for a very long time when it comes to the Palestinian issue. I mean, the life expectancy of Palestinians is greater than the life expectancy in South Africa. So what they have going on in South Africa, they've got their own country graylisted for terror financing, of which Mr.
6:19Emily Schrader:Rasul here has actually been a part of those agencies. A lot of what the flights that they've been bringing in just in the past two years, his colleague, Imtiaz Suleiman, actually brought in other highly skilled Gazans to South Africa. Last year, he brought in 59 medical students and doctors to South Africa from the Gaza Strip specifically. And when that happened, they bragged about it, how it was something humanitarian and how these people were brought in from what's going on in Gaza.
6:46Piers Morgan:I think there's a few quick things. Well, I'm going to let you respond now. Let me just, for reviewers who know nothing about you, let me just point out, you were the South African ambassador to the United States. who were thrown out of the US in mid-March 2025, so earlier this year, was saying in a webinar that Donald Trump was mobilising a supremacism in MAGA and trying to project white victimhood as a dog whistle. In the early days of his second term, Trump, of course, called out South Africa for taking Israel to the ICJ with allegations of genocide in Gaza. He froze all funding to South Africa and offered asylum to white Afrikaners while calling out what he said was a white farmer genocide.
7:25Piers Morgan:Marco Rubio accused you of hating the United States and President Trump and said the ambassador was no longer welcome in our great country. So first of all, your response to that, to what happened to you? I think I'll get to that. Let me say that very few people were able to leave Gaza over the last two years. Right. And therefore this idea of voluntary departure is a myth. I think secondly, South Africa has never balked at receiving refugees. We were the net greatest recipient of refugees from other African countries. And Palestine is no exception. There's no embarrassment for South Africa. It was crossing the I's and dotting the T's.
8:08I think on the issue of accusing Donald Trump of mobilizing, in my words, a supremacist incident, I stand by it. Because what else explains why he would accuse South Africa of a white genocide? Everyone knows. We covered that on this show.
8:25Piers Morgan:I do not believe there was a white genocide against Trump. But Donald Trump doubles down on it. The stats don't show that. Donald Trump doubles down on it. And therefore, what other motive could he have than mobilising white anxiety in South Africa? What other motive explains that you have a net deportation of black and brown from the U.S. and a net importation of white Afrikaners into the U.S. ostensibly as refugees? And so the point that I'm making is that there's no rational explanation except that there is an instinct at play, and I called it a supremacist instinct. I think I'm being proven right.
9:05Piers Morgan:It's a pretty serious charge, though, to make against an American president, that he's a white supremacist. It's a serious charge, but the American president makes serious charges every day of his life. He does. He does. And so, therefore, I think that you can't have such a thin skin that you dish it out. And what is, for me, a badge of honour is that one ambassador out of almost 200 said something, and it was heard in the Oval Office. It hurt the Oval Office. It pierced a very thin skin. And I think that that, for me, is a badge of honour. Would you really believe Donald Trump is a white supremacist?
9:41I think he has mobilized that instinct in the US. I think it's the source of his goal. Well, is there all the intent of supremacist you think he is?
9:47Piers Morgan:No. When he says there's a white genocide and he's proven wrong and he embarrasses or tries to embarrass our president with false evidence of it, shows pictures of the DRC... But actually, in the moment, Johan Rupert and others, a major South African figure, you know, called out the truth and said that wasn't happening. Then what explains that months later he doubles down on it and says, on that basis, I'm not going to the G20, I'm not accepting the baton from you, and so forth. Look, he can be wrong about it without himself being a white supremacist. You never double down on a wrong, even when your own advisers tell you and the world tells you...
10:26Donald Trump often doubles down on things. And therefore he has no right to double down on falsehoods.
10:29Piers Morgan:But it doesn't make him a white supremacist. I think it does. Really? I think what we are seeing... It's a incredibly serious thing to call somebody. It is. Because I am from a nation who was one of the last who stared down supremacism in South Africa. I was put in jail by supremacists. When I hear the dog whistle, I understand it. And that, I think, is absolute... I'm not speaking from a theoretical basis. I'm speaking from a lived experience. No, I understand that. And obviously there was white supremacy in South Africa, and we saw that... And that white supremacy is ensconcing itself. They have free access to the White House.
11:07They have free access to give false evidence, and they have free access to really influence a United States president to boycott the G20 on the basis of a false white genocide.
11:19Piers Morgan:Well, it's probably not unconnected, Emily, to the fact that South Africa has been so strident about Israel, one of America's top allies, of course. Trump has been working very hard to bring peace to the Middle East. I think he deserves great credit for getting the hostages released and the current ceasefire and so on. I'm sure these things are all interwoven as to why he has an antipathy towards the South African government. He doesn't think they should have done that. But on that charge of him being a white supremacist, what's your response to that?
11:46Emily Schrader:I mean, I don't really have any comment about Donald Trump. I don't know what his personal views are. I don't care for him that much personally. I don't agree with his policy on most of the Middle East, certainly not trying to make a deal with the Islamic Republic of Iran. But I do find it highly ironic that someone who effectively is an Islamist supremacist is accusing someone else of being a white supremacist. Mr. Rasool here is someone who has openly praised Yusuf al-Karadawi, who, of course, is a financier or was a financier of Hamas, who openly supported terrorism and Hamas. He has constantly affiliated himself with various figures who are involved with Hamas.
12:24Emily Schrader:He has participated in his organization as well, has even co-hosted fundraisers with organizations that were funded and created by Qaradawi, who I mentioned earlier, Suleiman, his colleague. He also has done, not only brought Gazans to South Africa, but also has bragged about his associations with Hamas officials. He's met with Islamic Jihad officials. He has also posted publicly about how he has a kefiah that's signed by Ismail Haniyeh, the leader of Hamas. And just several months before he was appointed to be the ambassador of the United States, he was meeting with a delegation of Muslim Brotherhood officials in South Africa about how to advance the Palestinian cause.
13:07Emily Schrader:Now, given the fact that he has all of these associations with Hamas officials and with people who have funded Hamas, I would like to know, and I think the world deserves to know, what exactly he meant. by supporting the Palestinian cause when meeting with those Muslim Brotherhood officials.
13:20Piers Morgan:Well, let's give Mr. Rasul the chance to respond. Ooh. I think Emily has come here prepared to speak to a stereotype and not to Ibrahim Rasul.
13:29Emily Schrader:No, I'm talking about your actual record. Anyone who knows who I am would know that I was targeted by extremists because I stood against extremism in the name of Islam. Actually, your exact words were... You've had a good chance. I have given you a perfect chance. You stated that Karadawi was your spiritual guide. Those were your words. You publicly posted it. Karadawi is an important person in the Muslim world. And so let's leave that. He said that the Jews deserved what Hitler did to him. Do you agree with that? I was at the 60th anniversary of Auschwitz mourning with Jews. Do you agree with Karadawi's statement?
14:05In the central synagogue of Cape Town mourning with Jews.
14:08Piers Morgan:But in relation to the statements he has made of the kind Emily is saying, would you now disavow those statements? No, I think that the point is that the Palestinian struggle is the litmus test of Western humanity over that. No, you stated that Karadahwi was your spiritual guide. And the free pass that is constantly given to Israel to do what they can to Palestine. Mr. Rasul, Mr. Rasul. You have said it's unconscionable. You have said it's unacceptable. You have said that starvation is a weapon of war. That's what is faced. Mr.
14:41Emily Schrader:Rasul, is Karadahwi your spiritual guide or not? You also stated that your most memorable days... You put it in writing. My Kardao is not my spiritual guide. You put it in writing. You stated your most memorable days were with him. And the same reason that you would see Netanyahu as a political leader... You praised Ismail Haniyeh. Ismail Haniyeh was the democratically elected president. You participated in a fundraiser in which the funds were given to the Hamas Ministry of Health.
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17:00I think that the killing of all innocent civilians is death, should be condemned, and whether it is from Sabra in Shatila, whether it is on the 7th of October, whether it's on the 8th of October, I think that has to be the litmus... So you would condemn Hamas? I'm not saying that theoretically. What I am saying is that that is what is taught to me by my faith.
Read the full transcript
17:25Piers Morgan:I understand, but just to be clear, you do condemn Hamas. I condemn anyone who kills innocent civilians. I condemn the IDF for doing that. I will condemn even Hamas soldiers for doing that. I will do... We even do that with anyone. It wasn't like a general, who else do you condemn? It's purely... No, it is. After October 7th, I don't know how anyone can condemn. We all have our favourite victims and we all have our favourite aggressors. I draw the line across all people who violate a faith teaching of mine and who violate the way in which we conducted mostly our struggle in South Africa. Do you think Israel had a right to defend itself after October 7th?
18:01anyone has the right to defend itself. Hamas would argue that they were defending himself against 70 years of the Nakba. We cannot have a whole entire struggle based on reprisals and vengeance. That is the great lesson that South Africa has taught. We embraced to the extent that I served in the cabinet of the last apartheid police minister who put me in jail. Vengeance is never the motive for going forward. And when I speak, I speak on the basis of experience and the internal soul searching I've had to do to be able to reconcile with people who put me in jail, who killed comrades of mine on the battlefield.
18:44I've mourned at many graves and I've had to overcome all of that to make the South African experiment work. So when we spoke to our white community, everyone applauded. When we speak to other aggressors in the world and say there is a better way, everyone says, how can you associate with him? Why is it acceptable and laudable that we speak to our white oppressors and come to common terms, but you can speak to no one else to share the South African example?
19:11Piers Morgan:But to avoid any ambiguity, when it comes to what Hamas did in October the 7th, you wouldn't argue that was self-defence or justified in any way? I think that in the same way that a Nelson Mandela, right up till his 90th birthday in the USA, was on a terrorist list until he was taken off. You're not really comparing Mandela to Hamas, surely. I am saying that anyone who fights for freedom always believes that it has a moral... Massacring people on a Jewish holiday inside of their homes is fighting for freedom. And anyone who opposes that freedom feels that they have the right to be able to... to condemn things.
19:50So what I am saying is that...
19:54Piers Morgan:I'm actually very... I mean, I'm stunned you've evoked the name of Nelson Mandela. Nelson Mandela is the litmus test. Nelson Mandela is the litmus test of how long it takes a Western community to take a man of a terrorist list. Just to be clear, though, what we saw on October 7th was not freedom fighting. It was a grotesque act of mass terrorism. And that's what I'm saying, that all such loss of innocent lives must be condemned. Well, why can't you just kill him on his own? Why invoke Mandela's name? No, because I'm saying that the same reasoning that Emily brings to it, that those are terrorists and the IDF must have a...
20:34Not only are they terrorists, they're terrorists. Emily, your response is...
20:37Emily Schrader:You have decades of supporting, you have decades of involvement with, you are a known Muslim Brotherhood affiliate, you have participated in fundraisers that went directly to the Hamas-run Ministry of Health. that are murdering Palestinians. In 1984, we formed a new organization that affiliated to the liberation movement. The South African government sent a delegation to the Islamic Republic of Iran. I don't appreciate people who are lying to my faith when I know that you have participated in fundraisers for Hamas. And shouting does not assert the truth. What we are saying is that I had in 1984 already seen the limitations of an Islamist viewpoint.
21:25We formed our own organization, the Call of Islam. We affiliated to the liberation movement, the United Democratic Front, and to Archbishop Desmond Tutu's interfaith movement. And that is the way in which we have carved out a democratic Islam. That's how we participated in the struggle and in the transition. That's categorically false. And so you are speaking to a stereotype, and I know that's very neat for you. No, I'm not. I'm speaking about your statements in recent years on your social media. And I am saying that a lot of what we do is you can hang all your cloak on Qardawi and so forth. You're lying through your teeth.
22:00Emily Schrader:The evidence is there for everyone to see. The fact is that when you get into that personal zone of calling me a liar, then I know that you are desperate for answers. What I am saying is you've got to judge me by what I have done. and you can go and ask your own people in South Africa, in the Jewish Board of Deputies, where have I stood? When there were terrorist groupings in Cape Town bombing synagogues, I was the one, as the leader of the ANC there, later as the Premier, who had to understand that I needed to be the bulwark against extremism in the name of my religion, and I needed to do that.
22:40And that put me on a death list, and I've had to manage all that.
22:43Piers Morgan:Would you categorize what Hamas did on October 7th as extremism? I think it's any killing of innocents is extremism. Sometimes extremism is informal, like Hamas has done, and sometimes extremism finds itself in a prison. As you put it, you're fighting for freedom. Is it justified? I think that there must be limits on the methodology of fighting for freedom, but there is no limits on the legitimacy for fighting for freedom and against occupation. But then you're implying what they did was legitimate. I'm saying that everyone who fights for freedom will justify. We've had many threats. But there was nothing legitimate about what Hamas did that day.
23:19And there's nothing legitimate about what happened from October 8th onwards. You have said it yourself. It's unconscionable. It's unacceptable. Starvation is a weapon of war. Here's the difference.
23:29Piers Morgan:I am completely unambiguous when it comes to what Hamas did and what that made them. In that moment, they identified themselves as a terrorist organisation. that the innocent lives lost on October 7th is unconscionable, unacceptable. Are they terrorists, Hamas? They are extreme. Are they terrorists? In the same way... Are they terrorists? I would say that you cannot have an elected government simply being called a terrorist government. Even when they murder 1 ,200 people, kidnap, 250... There's 60 ,000 people murdered and starved to death. As you know, as you reference, I have been very critical.
24:09Piers Morgan:I've been very critical about the proportionality of Israel's response. However, I've never questioned their right to defend themselves. And I've always been unequivocal that Hamas are a terror group. Let me tell you that when South Africa launched its case against Israel in the ICJ for genocide, we did not use our own imagination of what is a genocide. We used the kind of work that the definition of genocide that was done after World War II and beautifully accurately... Let me ask you a question. How many countries and states ever have been convicted of waging a genocide?
24:48We've had the genocide in Bosnia. No, no, no. We've had it. I don't know what we had. Let me ask you a question for you.
24:54Piers Morgan:It's none. No country or state has ever been found guilty of waging a genocide. The conviction is none. Individuals have been, and groups of people have been, not a country or a state. It doesn't matter. Well, it does matter to this. It doesn't matter. Listen. If there is a genocide, and it's based on a definition of genocide that was crafted by the survivors of the Holocaust, that is the case that we are making in the ICJ.
25:19Emily Schrader:I just think it's ridiculous that, first of all, you cannot admit that the people who were murdered on October 7th were completely innocent. I've said that. Number two, no, you didn't. You didn't say that. You didn't say that Hamas is a terrorist organization. And you know why? Because two weeks before October 7th, you were posting on your social media talking about how Ismail Haniyeh is a hero of the Palestinian people and bragging that you have a kifia that's signed by Ismail Haniyeh. I have said that he was an elected prime minister. It doesn't matter what kind of person about Ismail Haniyeh praising him on social media.
25:52And you talked about 1984 as if you've changed your limitations
25:55Emily Schrader:on the views of Islamism. It's not true. It's flat out not true because in 2019, you participated in a fundraiser, You deserve the gift of the giving of your friend, Imtia Soleimani. I know you're skipping to your speaking points. But don't shout it out every time, louder and louder. And that money went directly to the Hamas-Ren Ministry of Health.
26:13Piers Morgan:You've made that point forcefully. I want to end by talking about where we are now in Israel. There is a ceasefire. The hostages have been released. There is this 20-point plan, which Donald Trump and his team have put forward. It's been adopted by the United Nations. Are you supportive of this plan? Any plan that takes us towards peace, imperfect as it is, is a step in the right direction. Whether it is a peace or a ceasefire that's moot, we will see as it goes. Whether it is the demand for a surrender on the one side or whether it is a genuine coming together of hearts, that we will see. And again, having lived through the transition and being in the leadership during a transition, We know that those are fraught with all kinds of dangers, even if you have perfect angels negotiating on both sides.
27:00But at the end of the day, the best peace comes out of when opposing people speak to each other. We need to see the proof will be in the pudding. And that, I think, is what is being awaited. A ceasefire with incursions from Israel is not perfect. But I think at least we hope I've been in Amman. I've seen warehouses full of food. And if any of that food can simply move in, it will be an improvement. We have seen the amount of deaths, thousands a day. If only that even slow down, it is important. But I think we must end belligerence on all sides. And we must have a genuine and sincere effort for peace.
27:46Okay, Emily.
27:46Emily Schrader:I think that the peace plan is a positive step. I hope that it's successful. I definitely have my doubts. And the primary reason for that is that we're talking about an international peacekeeping force, which, if we're looking at history, is very problematic, especially in the Middle East. If you look at UNIFIL in Lebanon and UN Resolution 1559 and also 1701 that called for the disarmament of Hezbollah, they haven't been successful. The Lebanese government has repeatedly failed to disarm Hezbollah. It's a huge problem for the country that's ongoing. And still they're supposed to be being disarmed.
28:17Emily Schrader:That's not happening. And unfortunately, I think that's probably what we're going to see in the Gaza Strip as well. And that's something that's unacceptable. Hamas is a terrorist organization that, for the sake of both sides, needs to be destroyed. right, certainly disarmed and removed from power, and they should have no role in the future governance of Gaza. And that's going to be very, very difficult with an international peacekeeping force. We haven't seen any country step up and say, yes, we're willing to actually force Hamas to disarm. Certainly Hamas has said they're not going to do that under any circumstances.
28:45Emily Schrader:And so there's a lot, there's a lot still unknown, but it's a definitely step in the right direction.
28:50Piers Morgan:The reason I've held off using the word genocide, I've categorized a lot of what I've been seeing as a form of ethnic cleansing, particularly when I hear Smodrich and Ben-Gavir and these very far-right members of that government talking in openly ethnic cleansing manner about wanting to get rid of all Palestinians from the Gaza Strip. But the reason I've held off is because if Israel was waging a genocide, and that was their clear intention, as many believe they are, why would they do a ceasefire? it's the one point that i think that they are also being frog marched to a ceasefire in the same way that hamas is being frog marched to a ceasefire the belligerents in the war don't easily give up the the the weaponry of that war but if they were genuinely wanting to get rid of all the palestinians i think that they wouldn't surely stop killing them they would carry on wouldn't they?
29:51I think it is carrying on. That, I think, is unfortunate. And every pretext allows an incursion. And so that's why I'm saying that it's an imperfect one. It's a step in the right. It gives breathing space.
30:02Piers Morgan:And if Israel is being taken down a line away from genocide to a peaceful resolution, who would you credit with making them do that? I think that there is fatigue. I think that the influence that some of the Arab states have begun to exercise in conjunction with Donald Trump takes us into a point like that. But it's a Trump plan. It is the only plan that is on the table. It brings relief, but it does not bring a solution because it does not end. The key question will be, will the peace be on the status quo ante, where things were, probably in 1967, or will it be the status quo as is, with Israel even retaining two-thirds of Gaza?
30:46Piers Morgan:If it is a lasting peace, should Trump get the Nobel Peace Prize? I don't think that... I come from a country that has contributed for Nobel Peace laureates, and I think they all deserve it, and they set the criteria. But Trump wouldn't deserve one by that? I don't think he does. And yet you think he's brought Israel to heel and stopped the killing? I'm not saying he's brought him to heel. I've said he's frog-marched together with the... Whichever way you want to categorise it, if Trump has frog-marched Israel to peace, why would he not bring up the Nobel Peace Prize? Because I don't think... I think the permissions that went up till that moment will disqualify.
31:20Piers Morgan:Isn't it because you think he's a white supremacist and you don't want to say he deserves it? And I think that supremacism doesn't need rewards. It's odd behaviour for a supremacist to try and forge peace. Not if he's striving for a peace prize. OK. We're going to leave it there. Thank you very much for coming in, Emily. Thank you very much for coming in. I appreciate it. Piers Morgan on Sensen is proudly independent. The only boss around here is me. If you enjoy our show, We ask for only one simple thing. Hit subscribe on YouTube and follow Piers Morgan Uncensored on Spotify and Apple Podcasts.
31:55Piers Morgan:And in return, we will continue our mission to inform, irritate and entertain. And we'll do it all for free. Independent, uncensored media has never been more critical and we couldn't do it without you.
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From the publisher
Israel is ethnically cleansing Gaza by flying Palestinians out of the country on bogus humanitarian flights, according to the South African government.
Planes from Gaza have been landing in the country in mysterious circumstances - and Israel has not responded formally to the allegation.
The nations have a strained relationship, with South Africa filing a formal genocide case against Israel at the ICJ.
Joining Piers Morgan to discuss this further is former South African ambassador to the United States, Ebrahim Rasool and Israel-American journalist Emily Schrader.
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