Mom Who Sent F-Slur Texts 'Could Face 10 Years' Jail' In UK | Interview + Debate Feat Andrew Wilson

19:15Piers Morgan:Hence why she used it here, but not in a way that could be remotely construed as homophobic, which then begs the question, why has she been prosecuted for a hate crime prompting hate at gay people? Can I just say, I think that it's almost worse that he was straight. You know, because what she's doing, she's really angry in the moment. I totally get it. And she's thinking, how can I insult this man that has done this terrible thing to me. And by the way, like, you know, I hope he gets convicted too. How can I demean him? I know I'll call him gay because gay is so lower. Gay is so, like, you know, anti-masculine.

19:52And that's the whole point. That that was the word she... There was a thousand other words she could have used to describe him.

19:56Piers Morgan:But she says she's not homophobic and wasn't saying it as a gay slur. OK, but... So you wanted to say that people that use the N-word to describe people aren't racist, it's just their banter between their friends? Well, no, because I think there is a quality of difference in severity of these words. So race is more important than sexuality? Well, it's an interesting arguable point. I mean, Mark, look, I would never use personally that F word. I would certainly never use the N word privately or in public. There probably is a quality of difference between the two, I would say. Most people might think that.

20:28Piers Morgan:Certainly in England, I can imagine a lot of people using it, playgrounds and stuff, and not intending it to be a homophobic slur, not even knowing it is. So it's not as clear cut as you might think it is. But regardless, as Brendan said, regardless of whether you think it is or isn't, the idea that you communicate that word in a private conversation to someone via text message who you know, and the next thing, 11 police officers are charging into your house to arrest you, that can't be right, surely. Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up. So you raised two points. The first one where I disagreed with you wasn't whether or not people saw it as a homophobic slur.

21:11My point is something can be a homophobic slur or a racist slur or an anti-Semitic slur or whatever, even if a person doesn't realize that that's what they're doing. In the United States, I've spent a lot of time in locker rooms as an athlete. I spent a lot of times in fraternity houses. I spent a lot of time just in my neighborhood. And that word was used a lot. And it was often used not against gay people, although it certainly was used against gay people. It was also used against ostensibly straight people, as my colleague just said, for the purpose of demeaning, for joking. Sometimes it wasn't even an intense joke.

21:43Sometimes it wasn't outrage. It was used ostensibly in a playful way. But the idea is if the best way to mock you or to tease you or to make you seem less like a man in a society where being a man is the height of humanity is to call you gay, then it still becomes homo.

21:58Piers Morgan:You'd never be arrested in America for using that word because the First Amendment would protect you. You can be offensive in America in that way without actually treading into criminal activity, because the First Amendment is there to protect that very thing, actually. It protects all speech, including hate speech. So that's the second piece of it, right? I just wanted to address the idea of whether it's homophobic speech or not. But even if it's hate speech, let's say it rises to the level of hate speech. Regardless, I don't think that the surveillance state should be overseeing us to decide when and where we're making those hate speech, even though I deplore hate speech.

22:36And then I also don't think the carceral state should be criminalizing or intensifying criminal penalties for using it. So, yeah, it's awful to do. You shouldn't do it. But I could be the worst piece of human garbage on Earth for using a word or a slur. It doesn't mean that I should get arrested for it. I think there's other ways to resolve that.

22:55Piers Morgan:Yeah. Andrew Wilson, you know, it's very interesting when Tucker jumped me with this because I wasn't aware of the case. So I was doing Tucker's show. We had a 90 minute chat about all sorts of things. The main premise of his conversation was that my country's gone for the dogs. I was defending it vigorously in some parts and agreeing with him in other parts, as I would America, by the way. Good and bad, but two great countries. However, when he went on this rant about this, it took me by surprise. I did not say this F word because I thought I might be arrested. I wasn't aware of the story. I went and did some research, and I discovered somebody had actually been arrested in my country for using that word in a text message.

23:35Piers Morgan:Having, she says, being beaten up by a guy, having treatment in hospital, and texting somebody that she believed had been partly responsible for her getting the beating. And that beating has not been properly investigated. So I don't know enough about that part of it to determine how clear-cut that all was. But regardless, the idea that she could use that word in a text message and the next thing, 11 police are banging on... Not even banging in, they're coming in. She's having a bath, naked. Absolutely extraordinary, isn't it? December is Heart Awareness Month, which makes you think differently about the busy holidays.

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24:53Piers Morgan:All with one dose a day to improve stamina, heart, health and vitality, all without caffeine or stimulants. Try BloodFlow-7 today and feel the difference where it matters most, inside your veins. Visit bloodflow7.com slash uncensored and get 30 % off your BloodFlow 7 order today. Well, it's actually, I'm not even surprised. So the idea here is I guess you could get essayed and if you call your assailant the quote F slur, you go to jail. Some country you got there. Some country you got there. By the way, let's point this out that progressives have for years, as these guys say, you know, hey, we don't want to, you know, put in hate speech laws and have people arrested and this and that.

25:42They've been doing the same type of stuff for years. They do depersoning, debanking, deplatforming, keeping people away from their cash. If you touch on any issues that they don't like, they've been doing that for years to conservatives. So they're doing the exact same thing that the government over there is doing. They're just using private marketplace to do it. So what they do is they will go on these massive campaigns to deperson a human being from society because they have wrong think. Or they say a word that makes somebody else upsetty spaghetti, right? That's what they do. And the fact of the matter is, who gives a shit?

26:20Who cares if this woman didn't care? Who cares if she was like, you know what, I am homophobic. And I said it because I'm homophobic. That's her business. You can say what you want. You're supposed to at least in free nations. And that's not what you have there. And that was Tucker Carlson's point. You don't have a free nation there. You have a nation which is under addiction. Hang on, hang on. Out of interest, Andrew, would you use that word? Sure, you use it all the time. It's one of the best ways to describe friends. Would you use it on a show like this? It's not meant to be... Look, it's not meant to be...

26:55Can I say it? Would you say it?

26:57Piers Morgan:I mean, would you normally use a word like that? Well, I wouldn't say it for the purposes of TOS, but, I mean, if I was allowed to, sure. It's one of my favorite words to say. There's nothing wrong with the word. What happens is this. This word is not even being used as a homophobic slur, and it hasn't since I was a kid, okay? That's the truth. People call each other this all the time, literally for fun, just because it's fun. You know, you've run into a buddy of yours. What's up, F-slur, right? You don't care. You give each other a high five. I don't think that's true, though. It's fun. It is true.

27:33No, I think if you ask gay people,

27:36Piers Morgan:they will tell you it is often used in a derogatory way and offensive way intended to demean them. And it's done all the time. I don't think we can dispute that. But you know what? Everything, you can use any word as derogatory if you want to, or you can use words, and they're not derogatory. It depends on the context. And we're social creatures. I'm tired of people acting like socially everybody's retarded. We know that there's context for words. And when you say, in proper context, this word to buddies and people, you know, whatever, it's not a problem socially and it never has been and mark might shake his head but i bet you in high school he was calling half of his friends that word and they were probably calling it to him back why because it's funny that's why it's funny and it's uh were you so so here's was i no but you've never used any derogatory term at school about anyone as a joke you're asking a different question now then okay a different question his question was that But again, the answer to the first question is no, I didn't use the F word in high school, as he alleged.

28:44Second question is, have I ever used an offensive term? Absolutely. When I was a child. But as an adult, I like to think that I've grown beyond using the words that I used as a child. And I agree that social context matters. And I agree that we should always consider social context. We live in a society where gay people are still abused, where gay people are still slandered, where gay people are still physically assaulted, where gay people are marginalized. and that F word is used very often to do, and it's often accompanied by harm. And so if we know that, I agree, when you walk up to your friend and give him a high five and use that word, you may not be attempting to smuggle in homophobia.

29:19I don't think you are. But what I'm saying is we're normalizing a word that still accompanies harm and still kind of normalizes what we do and how we treat as a society, LGBTQI folk. And so I'm just saying, why don't we pick a different word that doesn't cause all this hullabaloo? All right, the bigger issue... The problem is, is like, cause they're not as fun. And the reason is the more that you try to make these pushbacks, these social pushbacks and tell people what they can and can't say, it makes them want to say it more. And you know what, Mark? Like that's what, that's what happens. The second you start making social pushback and say, Hey, this word you've been calling your friends and you guys have been joking around for years saying this stuff.

29:54You're not allowed to say it anymore because now somebody is going to get too upset about it. It literally gives them incentive to say it more. That's what happens. That's how social, That's how social context actually works. But that's not what I'm saying. You know, if you guys wouldn't make a big deal out of it, if you guys wouldn't make... Hang on, Mark, almost done. If you guys wouldn't make a big deal out of it, we wouldn't have a big deal, right? But you guys make the big deal out of it.

30:16Piers Morgan:All right, let me bring in Brendan, because... So, I'm not... Well, hang on, Mark, I'll come back to you. The bigger issue, it seems to me, here with the UK is that the Times newspaper recently revealed that police officers are making 12 ,000 arrests a year under Section 127 of the Communications Act and Section 1 of the Malicious Communications Act. In other words, similar instances to this. That's 30 arrests a day over offensive posts on social media and other platforms. Thousands of people being detained and questioned for sending messages that, quote, cause annoyance, inconvenience or anxiety to others via the internet, telephone or mail.

30:59Piers Morgan:there's been a 58 % increase in these arrests since before the pandemic. I mean, this seems completely nuts to me. Joe Rogan said they've already arrested 12 ,000 people for social media posts. We've got a clip of him talking about this. They've already arrested 12 ,000 people for social media posts. That's insane. Above and beyond every other country, way above Russia. Russia was like 400 last year. The UK is 12 ,000. THERE ARE ANY CRITICISM OF IMMIGRATION, ANY CRITICISM OF GROOMING GANGS AND PEOPLE BEING RAPED, ANY TALK ABOUT HOW HORRIBLE THIS IS, THEY COME VISIT YOU. IT'S LIKE SOMEONE IS TRYING TO DESTROY ENGLAND.

31:41Piers Morgan:I WOULD SAY, BRENDAN, THAT'S PROBABLY A MISCHARACTERIZATION. IF YOU ACTUALLY WENT OVER THE 12 ,000 CASES, YOU COULD PROBABLY SEE A LOT OF VERY OFFENSIVE THINGS IN THERE. I DON'T KNOW, BUT I'M SURMISING IT'S NOT JUST CRITICISING AN IMMIGRATION POLICY THAT'S CAUSING THE ARREST. But in a country that's supposed to be one of the leaders of free speech historically in the world, this is pretty terrifying, isn't it? It's just Kafka stuff. It's awful. It's like the Stasi. You know, older listeners and viewers will remember the German Democratic Republic and they had the Stasi that would literally listen in on private conversations, that would literally rent out the apartment above the apartment of some dodgy person and listen through the floor to make sure they weren't saying problematic things.

32:24We now have a similar system in the UK. People are being arrested and in some cases punished for things they say. And, you know, it's now December. So any minute now we are going to see the annual controversy about the Pogues great song, Fairytale of New York, which has the famous lyric, you scumbag, you maggot, you cheap, lousy beep. You know, we're not allowed to say it apparently, but that is a great song. That word is often bleeped out. And this is another issue about these insulting words. I actually think what's most insulting to gay people, ethnic minority people, all sorts of minority groups, what's most insulting is actually censorship, because censorship infantilises them.

33:03Censorship says to them, you are such a weak part of society that we need to institute these laws and these rules to protect you from offensive words. It's actually a reversal of the great gains of the civil rights era when we have these kinds of rules that say we must protect these poor little deers from ever hearing an offensive term. So I think these words are actually... The power of these words is less worrying to me than the power of censorship to infantilise minority groups and punish people who want to express themselves.

33:33Piers Morgan:All right, Lewis, as a poor little dear, would you like to respond? Well, yeah, I want to start with the numbers that you just talked about because I think there is a point where we have to look at the reality of the modern world in which we live. Yes, we all want to see more convictions for rape and murder. Those things are very hard to prove, whereas communication, we all communicate, 90 % of it now is online. But why should the police be policing speech that doesn't actually incite specific violence, which is, to me, always the lines you cannot cross, right? If I say to people that you live at a certain address, go round there and attack him, That's a clear incitement to violence against a specific individual.

34:12Piers Morgan:That's a criminal offence and I should be arrested for that and there should be no issue of that being a free speech issue. But if I just hate you or want to say derogatory things about you or you do to me, that shouldn't be something that precipitates 11 police turning up at the door. Well, two things. We have protected characteristics, right? We understand that in UK law, it was only 1967 in this country it stopped being illegal to be gay. It was only in 2003 that we got rid of things like Section 28. The law has had a real hand in causing stigma and discrimination against gay people that did not disappear in 20-something years.

34:48So it's right that the law steps in and says, you know what, we've had a hand in this. We're going to step in and protect you because it takes a preventative measure, much like the NHS, where it says, you know what, rather than treat you where you're sick, let's just prevent people from getting sick where we can. And it's the same thing here. Yes, the line is calling for violence. but if you can stop people hating on people for their individual identity, you can say you're stupid, you're an idiot, you've done this wrong, whatever, but if it's targeted, if it's hate on you because of your race, because of your sexuality, because of your religion.

35:16Piers Morgan:Why does nobody get arrested for calling Donald Trump a Nazi? Well, no, but you know what? The Nazi thing is interesting because they do think... It's not just interesting. It's probably the most egregious thing you could possibly call somebody. It's comparing him directly to Adolf Hitler who murdered 12 million people, who gassed 6 million Jews in concentration camps, right? The idea that that is... Maybe the Americans should bring in some speech. But the idea that that is not an arrestable offence by comparison to using the F word against a gay person seems to me to be completely disproportionate.

35:47Piers Morgan:Well, you're absolutely right. Here's my thing. I think the Nazi thing is an interesting thing because actually this proves that it's not a left or a right-wing issue because actually since the assassination of Charlie Kirk and those two attempts on Donald Trump's life, the right has been saying, watch your rhetoric. And they understand that whilst people aren't calling for violence against them, speaking about them as Nazis is increasing the likeliness of someone thinking, oh my God, there's Nazis, I better get a gun and do something about it. So they understand that not calling for violence, but calling them words, starts that dehumanization that leads to violence.

36:22So thank you for proving my voice. This is sick. This is actually sick, what you're saying, dude. What you're saying is that you're calling for people to be arrested for words that make you upset. That's sick. This is the country of John Locke. Hang on. This is the country of John Locke. This is the country that was supposed to. We adopted our constitution based on these principles of free speech. And, you know, you sick bastards are running around actually calling for the arrest of people because they say mean words. What the hell is wrong with you? This is the thing with free speech. You can still make your point.

36:56You can still make your point. What is it that you can't say? It's not my fault that people can't articulate themselves well. You can talk about crime statistics based on gender and sexuality and race, whatever you want. You just can't use discriminatory words to do it.

37:08Piers Morgan:Why should a young care worker who's angry because she's been assaulted and is in hospital and is firing off her angry thoughts while she said she had a head injury, and she uses this F word, and because of that, she ends up with a conviction? Well, hold on, Piers. We only got her side of the story. Reading the articles, it says that there was a series of abusive and homophobic messages. Those were then showed... They weren't homophobic. The friend that she said... They weren't homophobic. Hold on. They weren't aimed at somebody for their sexuality. But so if I go up to someone in the street...

37:45Piers Morgan:So if I go up to someone in the street and start attacking them... Well, OK. By comparison, if I use the N-word against you... I still haven't had a chance to respond to you. Or if I use the N-word against Andrew, Is that a racist slur against him? No. What did it? No. If I go up in the street and saw... There has to be some intent, surely. No, if I saw going up to someone in the street and screaming anti-Semitic things at them, and then it turns out they're not Jewish, the police aren't going to be like, oh, well, like you still, you went to attack someone based on the... Hang on, but that's my point, though.

38:16Piers Morgan:If you're, you can't be anti-Semitic against somebody who's not Jewish. But we go back to, I think it's worse, because the gay slur was made to make him seem like less of a man, to sort of dehumanize it in that way. She didn't intend it like that. And I think intent does matter. Mark, you wanted to jump in about the Nazi thing. What was your observation about that? I don't think, by the way, I don't think people should be arrested for either, but it just seems to me an extraordinary disparity between you could just casually call somebody a Nazi and compare them to Adolf Hitler, and there's no accountability.

38:45Piers Morgan:But if you use the F word in a private text, you get arrested by 11 cops. Yeah, we're in, like, seven directions here, so I'm going to just try and in like 10 seconds deal with each one total. First, I agree that no one should be arrested for any of this speech. Let me say that. So this is not a defense of arresting people because that keeps being said. I'm not defending that. I do think the Nazi piece is different, but it doesn't mean that it should be responded to differently. For example, you may say to me, Piers, because you're policing my speech around not using the F word or the N word or whatever, that you're a fascist.

39:22that would be a reasonable criticism I think you'd be wrong but I think that'd be a reasonable criticism but you'd be saying that my behavior is actually similar to that of a particular thing when people are looking at Donald Trump's behavior it's not casual at all they're saying the extraordinary and maybe historically unprecedented way that he is undermining American democracy is reminiscent of the Nazi regime you may disagree I'm not telling you to be wrong or right you don't honestly think that you honestly think Donald Trump is a Nazi. Piers, if you allowed me to finish, you'd understand that I'm not saying that.

39:56Just allow me to finish the sentence. My next sentence was, it does not matter whether you agree or disagree with the claim. The point is, I'm allowed to have a political ideology. And I wouldn't make that claim, by the way. I wouldn't call Donald Trump a Nazi. But my point is, if I believe that...

40:11Piers Morgan:Is it a slur against Donald Trump? No! Wow. That's my... Piers, I'm the one saying no. So it's not a slur to call somebody... It's not a slur to call somebody a Nazi, but it is a slur to use the F word about somebody who's not even gay. Explain that. No, I can't explain what you just said, because that's not the point I'm making. You've recharacterized what I said. I'm not sure what the point is you're making. What I'm saying, allow me to finish and you will. What I'm saying is, if you are making an analysis of somebody and you in good faith believe that their behavior, similar to if you call me a fascist, I don't think I'm a fascist, but you have a right to say that.

40:48And I wouldn't call that a slur. if my behavior is reminiscent of that similar to the Nazi or any other argument that you make, I'm not going to call it a slur just because I disagree with you where it becomes different is if I'm attacking somebody for their identity where I'm insulting somebody for their identity that becomes a slur and in the last example you gave, Pierce where somebody calls somebody the F word or somebody high fives their friend as my other colleague said, gives them a high five and they're not even gay and they don't mean it that way it may not be a slur but you're still trafficking in homophobia you're still trafficking racism all right hang on this isn't illogical this is actually illogical listen i'll tell you why the reason that this is illogical is and then allow me to respond because every time you respond i don't get to respond hang on i understand but the foundation of your argument is these words cause harm based on social stigma and the social stigma is caused because you're using a harmful word calling people nazis and fascists would create this exact same stigma that you're saying these other protected classes deserve.

41:49Your argument is a contradiction. It's P and not P at the same time. It's contradictory. So either it's one or the other, Mark, either the social stigma needs to be argued against. Hang on, hang on. And in the UK, people are getting arrested for calling Donald Trump a Nazi as much as they get arrested for calling somebody the F slur because the social stigma is the thing that you're after. So you have to pick one, dude. Pick a lane. This episode is brought to you by Fox One. Watch all 104 matches of the FIFA World Cup live in 4K for just$19.99 a month with three days free. Build your own multi-view, choose up to three streams, and follow player spotlights.

42:32Stay on top of every moment with live stats, highlights, and instant replays. The FIFA World Cup, streaming live on Fox One. Offers a subject to change. See fox.com for complete terms and conditions. All right. Now allow me to respond. Again, you have mischaracterized my argument. My point is not that social stigma is the predicate for deciding whether or not someone can say something or not. If it were, then you would be right. All words can have social stigma. I could call you a conservative and you could have a social stigma. Then what determines it other than stigma? Please allow me to finish.

43:06You insisted on being allowed to finish. Let me do the same. Yeah, I know. I just want the answer, though. What could it be other than stigma? Do you think it's easy to get the answer if you let me talk or if you don't? Yeah, go ahead. What I'm saying is, again, all words can potentially have stigma. If you call me a bleeding-heart liberal, I may find that to produce stigma for me. I'm not saying that stigma alone is the issue. Stigma is not the predicate for me. And again, I'm not making the case that anybody should be arrested for any of it because it's so gray and slippery. I'm saying don't arrest anybody for any of the slang or any of the slurs, any of the language, any of the words that have been used against people.

43:39I'm saying don't arrest anybody for any of it. But the distinction I'm making here is not one of slur versus or stigma versus non-stigma. What I'm saying is, is that as a social, as a community, we can certainly agree that assessing someone's behavior, even if it causes stigma, is OK. You not liking it isn't enough for me to stop saying it. What I'm saying is if we as a community decide that, hey, this particular word, this particular framework has historically caused harm to people, not based on what they believe, not based on anything they've done, but based on a particular identity category, I'm saying we can make different decisions.

44:11We may not agree on what the decision is. That's stigma, though, Mark. That's stigma. You are making a foundation. Let me jump in.

44:18Piers Morgan:I want to hang on. Stigma is not the foundation for my concern. Stigma is not the foundation. You just don't realize it, but it is. It's not. Let me ask Andrew a question. You don't realise that... Let me ask Andrew a question. Just repeatedly shouting it is doesn't change the fact that I'm not saying stigma. Let me ask a question. Let me ask a question. I'm stipulating that it can all have stigma. Mark, let me ask a question of Andrew, which is about free speech, but it's a different twist on it, because it's all been very anti-the UK, this debate, as indeed the debates raised in America about our free speech issues, which are legitimate.

44:53Piers Morgan:I agree. But a Reuters report recently said that more than 600 Americans were fired, suspended, placed under investigation or disciplined by employers for comments about Charlie Kirk's assassination. That was after a review of court records, public statements, local media reports and interviews. Some were dismissed after celebrating or mocking Kirk's death. 15 were punished for allegedly invoking karma or divine justice, nine others for discipline, for variance on good riddance. Other offending posts appeared to exult in the killing or expressed hope of other Republican figures. We'll be next.

45:31Piers Morgan:And we just had the president-elect of the Oxford Union in the UK who was sort of de-president, removed from his presidency, which was about to take over, because he had reacted in a sort of celebratory way when he heard the news of Charlie Kirk being shot. Now, in its way, is that not the very kind of censorship that you're talking about? Or do you think there's a line between accountability to your employers and to police criminal activity? No, the left has been depersoning and cancelling people for, I mean, my whole lifetime. And it has whipped up into a fervor since Trump's election, but even pre-election.

46:14They don't just deperson you. They debank you. They deplatform you. You're not allowed to say anything. They run massive harassment campaigns. The first time I've ever seen you poke the bear, poke the bear, poke the bear, they finally did something. And all that happened was some people lost their jobs. They weren't depersoned. They weren't completely ostracized from all of regular society because they said a no-no word. These were people who were celebrating in the streets a horrific murder, which they likely contributed to through their own rhetoric. Right. That's what actually happened there.

46:48Oh, wait. Language causes problems? Hang on. Hang on. All that happened here, right, was for once the right actually pushed back after you poked us enough time. So, like, look, am I saying that people should get fired from their jobs? No, of course not. But what I am saying is this, is that there's a clear difference between depersoning and debanking people and ostracizing them from society completely and an employer saying you don't represent my company very well, so you're fired. Okay. And that's the distinction.

47:17Piers Morgan:All right. Got to leave it there. I'm going to leave it there, Mark. I'm sorry. We're running out of time. A fascinating debate. Thank you all very much. Pierce Morgan on Sensor is proudly independent. The only boss around here is me. If you enjoy our show, we ask for only one simple thing. Hit subscribe on YouTube and follow Piers Morgan Uncensored on Spotify and Apple Podcasts. And in return, we will continue our mission to inform, irritate and entertain. And we'll do it all for free. Independent, uncensored media has never been more critical and we couldn't do it without you.

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