“Most Powerful Person EVER” Piers Morgan Debates American Empire With Historians

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1:00Piers Morgan:Is America the good guy? Is it the global good guy policeman? Or is it something else? The United States is a place that's pulled in two directions. I think the average American really wants the United States to stand for good. But the reality is, of course, is it doesn't live up to its own standards. Donald Trump is the biggest celebrity of our time with the biggest reach. But, you know, when you're 80 years old, you don't live forever. That's the thing about being human. I wouldn't be surprised if the US stops giving military aid to Israel. Many Israelis want the US to stop giving it military aid.

1:32I think it's important when talking about the Iran war to realise Israel is not happy with the way the war has turned out. Well, although Washington founded the nation and Lincoln saved the nation,

1:43Piers Morgan:in fact, it was FDR who saved the world. I think without any question, I have assembled today the Mount Rushmore of historians.

1:54Piers Morgan:It's a measure of the fever of polarisation in US society that even its history is a matter of furious debate. Even before Trump's second presidency, there were competing missions to redefine America's origins, which plunged the past into the present-day culture wars. The 1619 Project sought to reframe US history around the first arrival of slaves. In response, the 1776 Commission said, No, thank you. We know exactly when all of this started and who did it. There are still arguments about whether the new United States committed the genocide against Native Americans, whether it should be taught in schools.

2:27Piers Morgan:On Monday this week, the president launched a new front in his war on the Smithsonian Institute, releasing a report detailing his many complaints about divisive narratives and liberal ideology in US museums. Overarching all of this, of course, in the year of its 250th anniversary, are some pretty big questions about what America is and what it should be. It's the Revolutionary Republic which defeated an empire and then became one itself. But is it now in decline? Bianca Nobolo is a fascinating episode on the US at 250 over on History Uncensored. We'll link to it in our show notes. And we've assembled our own panel of historical heavyweights to set the record straight.

3:03Piers Morgan:Lord Andrew Roberts, the acclaimed best-selling author, professor and biographer of The Last King of America, George III. Douglas Brinkley, renowned historian and acclaimed best-selling co-author of Witness to America. Roy Casagrande, the Golden Narrative Laureate Professor of political science at United Arab Emirates University and history podcasting superstar. Barry Strauss, the professor at Cornell and senior fellow at the Hoover Institute. So I can't think of amassed, probably in the history of the United States, a more highly qualified collection of experts to pass judgment here. Let me start with you, Doug Brinkley.

3:38Piers Morgan:Welcome to Uncensored. I used to interview you a lot when I was at CNN, so it's great to have you in my new incarnation. Douglas, you've obviously poured over American history most of your adult life. Where is America right now? Where was it supposed to be right now? And where should it be? Well, you know, we just had our 250th birthday, July 4th, the Declaration of Independence. It's still a momentous occasion, the signing in old Philadelphia of all the people we consider our founders and including some people that, you know, like John Hancock and Paul Revere and these people that were taught in American schools to be heroes forever.

4:24And then you have the Constitution of 1789, the ratification. And those two foundational documents kind of blaze the trail of what the United States is supposed to be. The idea when you write a line like Jefferson did in the Declaration, all men are created equal. when you find out that unless you're Native American, indigenous, or unless you're a woman, or unless you're a person of color, then you don't get to vote. That eats up a lot of American history just to get to the 1860 election of Abraham Lincoln and the crucible of our country, the Civil War, where hundreds of thousands of Americans die, Americans killing Americans, North versus South, only to get the Emancipation Proclamation from Abraham Lincoln freeing slaves in Confederate states.

5:19And from that point on, I think it's a new America. You have to look at the America where slavery was tolerated and was a boom business in some southern states to the post-Civil War era. And then it's the time of American greatness, particularly because of engineering, can-do, do-ism, innovation. You can't skip what it meant in World War II for industrial mobilization, the miracle of American factories, and then the Manhattan Project with the atomic bomb. But as of late, I always think of the moonshot, Neil Armstrong on the moon is kind of petering out of that great era of the American spirit, can-doism, innovation.

6:04And we've been trying to reboot really since then and have had success in Silicon Valley with AI, with Google, Apple and some companies. But there's a malaise over the land in the United States that the American dream, the idea that every generation gets better, that we're always welcoming of immigrants. It's sort of, it's stalled right now. And that might be being too moderate saying that. It's been jerked backwards where kids aren't sure whether their better days are yet to come or not. And that means, you know, it brings us to the age of Trump. And he's a divisive political figure. He's got 30 to 40 percent of the public that loves him and a lot of people who don't.

6:52But he plays the Electoral College well. And right now he's trying to undo, as you mentioned, Smithsonian Institute and historical displays that don't show a kind of triumphalist side of American history. He doesn't like what he considers politically correct or taking Americans as not good guys.

7:18Piers Morgan:Yeah, I mean, Professor Cassie Grandin, welcome back to Uncensored. I guess one of the big debates about history and historians, Trump thinks that to be patriotic, historians should sort of gloss over the negative stuff, hype up the good stuff, stop focusing on bad things. Because, you know, if you want to be a true patriot, then you should really, as historians, do your job, which is, you know, making everything out to be fantastic. Obviously, that's not the job of historians. But when you look at... I mean, how do you think history will judge where we are now with America? Because, obviously, there are two ways of looking at it.

7:57Piers Morgan:Everything that Douglas just said is true, and yet America remains the most powerful country in the world with the most powerful military. with the most successful economy and so on. There are still lots of big ticks in the boxes, which many other countries would give their eye teeth to have. So it's flawed, obviously, but it has many great qualities, America. I mean, I've lived and worked in America for over 20 years, and I can see it firsthand. It's a remarkable place. You know, what do you feel about where America's got to? I mean, you're right. The United States is a remarkable place. I lived there three quarters of my life, and I don't regret having spent that time there.

8:42The United States is a place that's pulled in two directions. On the one hand, I think the average American really wants to do good and really wants the United States to stand for good. And that's Bennett's rhetoric, especially in the post-World War II era. But the reality is, of course, is it doesn't live up to its own standards. records. You just look at it and the types of wars that it chooses to get involved in, right? These aren't wars that it was forced into. And when you look at that record, it's really hard to look at it and go, oh, that made a lot of sense. I'm so glad we killed 3 million Vietnamese for no reason, 2 million Iraqis for no reason.

9:21And so the United States has this strange tug of war that it's involved in. And I think, at least for a while, there was this hope that it would get pulled in sort of a better direction. And the 60s and 70s, I'm sorry, the 50s and 60s certainly believed that. I think in the 70s, people sort of tuned out and listened to disco and did a bunch of cocaine and forgot that there was a 50s and 60s. But there was a struggle that the United States went through where it tried to figure out what kind of a country it wanted to be going forward. And in the end, I think the election of Donald Trump showed that there was a portion of the population that thought, no, that was really the wrong direction.

10:02We didn't want racial equality and we didn't want gender equality and we needed to roll the clock back. And the facet, right, make America great again is really just make America 19th century again. And so the fascinating thing is that there's a portion of the public that didn't like this better, more inclusive of the United States, this United States that wasn't necessarily imperialist for the sake of being imperialist, that, you know, we were trying to do good for the world. And I think that's a disappointment for the world. Like, historians looking back will probably judge the United States and go, what was with this reactionary backlash that put it back decades?

10:41Piers Morgan:Well, you know what I would say to that? It's interesting. I hear your argument, but But what historians may look back and say is, well, one of the reasons why somebody like Trump not just won one term, but then was four years out of office and then won bigger the second time. And actually, it may well come down to some of the progressive moves that were made by the left. And I'm thinking particularly, look, I'm a more liberal than not kind of guy. but I certainly think history will look back for example at the issue of trans athletes and women's sport as one of the catalysts for how trying to be doing the right thing trying to signal your virtue trying to be inclusive all these things can sometimes lead a party as it did with the Democrats into a mindset of complete insanity I really do think history will look back and go wait a minute You let biological males compete in women's sport.

11:43Piers Morgan:How did that go? And obviously the answer is very badly, until Trump stopped it. So, you know, let me bring in Barry Strauss. I mean, I think there were lots of strides made, but when I think of that particular issue, I mean, Trump made a big deal of it, and it was obviously very popular. You know, one of the most popular political ads in history was the one that he ran in the last election campaign of Kamala Harris supporting trans athletes in women's sport. And it was devastatingly effective for Republicans, that commercial. So I just think it'd be interesting how history views the progressive wave and whether it feels it was a force for good in the end or began to eat itself alive.

12:26So, you know, I'm a Roman historian. I'm a historian of the classical world. So I tend to step back and take the big picture. And, you know, what I think I would say about the United States is that it's a remarkably regenerative society. It has this ability to remake itself over and over again. And one of the reasons is the success of immigration to the United States. I mean, American history is partly the history of these waves of immigration, and most recently since 1965. And the contributions of the immigrants to American society are fantastic. reshaping America. And yet what we learned from Rome is successful societies have an ability to keep what's good about the past and yet make changes that are necessary to adapt to the future.

13:19And one of the paradoxes of the United States is that we have this written constitution, albeit with some amendments, that's supposed to stop the clock. But of course it can't, and you can't stop the clock. And it only works if we have people interpreting it through the courts and above all through the Supreme Court. So I think that the future will look back and say, yes, the United States has lots of bumps. There are lots of bumps on the road. But Americans' ability to remake themselves while having one foot in the past and yet looking towards the future, I think that's one of the things that's really going to mark us historically.

13:58Piers Morgan:Very interesting. Andrew, welcome back to Uncensored. Lord Roberts, you wrote a great book, The Last King of America, The Misunderstood Reign of George III. The narrative, of course, has always been he went completely bonkers and it cost us the entire continent of America, which is why I never celebrate July the 4th. I obviously mourn it deeply. Things have been different. In fact, I sent President Trump a text I can reveal on July the 4th saying, happy 250s, Mr President. I said, you know, do you think maybe that it might be time to bring back the British monarchy and perhaps even install King Piers I?

14:36Piers Morgan:He just replied, how cute. But he didn't reply. And it wasn't necessarily a no. But, Andrew, you actually said the sort of cartoon villain impression of George III was wrong, has been kind of mythologised. He was actually a wise, humane, quite entitled, enlightened monarch. So therefore, I guess the obvious question, Brit to Brit, is the whole premise of America therefore founded on a lie? No, not a lie. They were ready by the 1770s to have their independence. They got a population of 2.5 million. They got 5 % year-on-year growth. There were more bookshops in Philadelphia than in any other city of the empire apart from London.

15:26And they were ready to have their independence. And naturally, of course, it being a war, you needed propaganda on your side. And Thomas Jefferson penned the most brilliant propaganda wartime declaration that's ever been penned. And the first third of it is incredibly uplifting and it makes us all proud to be human. It's just the next two thirds, the ad hominem attack on George III, which doesn't hold water at all. only two of the 28 clauses make any sense historically. But those two are enough, the one about taxation and representation and the idea of self-government. Those two are enough to justify their revolution.

16:10So although, yes, they did, and especially Thomas Paine, who called George III a brute, although they did have to, because of the exigencies of wartime, exaggerate their position, them, nonetheless, it was the right time for America to become.

16:56Piers Morgan:I mean, there's a kind of irony, because I've known Trump a long time, and there's no doubt if he could be king, I mean, he would make himself king tomorrow. I mean, I think he would absolutely love the whole concept of monarchy. It's why he loves the British monarchy. You know, his mother was a big fan of the royals. He's had two state visits. I spoke to him again the morning after the last state visit when he'd been at Windsor Castle. He was at the castle, and he was absolutely just blown away by the pomp, the pageantry, the ceremony, the history of the royals. He loved the splendour of the castle.

17:29Piers Morgan:You know, I mean, he really just couldn't have enough of it. So there is an irony there. You've got a president right now in America who is probably the nearest thing in his head to a king that America has had. Well, actually, he has greater powers than George III did. In his setting tariffs, for example, which George III needed Parliament to support, He has all sorts of powers, especially with regard to peace and war and so on, that he uses without reference yet to the War Powers Act in the case of Iran, for example, which George III could only dream of. So it's sort of better than that, in a sense, for him.

18:11Piers Morgan:Let me bring Douglas back in, because last week President Trump shared a post attributed to presidential historian Dave King. Now, my first question would be, were you aware of Dave King's historical works? No, I was not. It's not surprising, as it turned out to be a long-time caddy and business associate for the South African professional golfer, Gary Player. But the significance of Dave King was that Trump cited this presidential historian, stroke caddy, claiming that Trump is the most powerful person that has ever walked this planet. The Post went on to say, this is the post by the historian stroke caddy, Dave King, Historically, powerful people were characterised by brutal conquest and the fear that they instilled in the populations that came under their influence.

19:01Piers Morgan:Common names that would come to mind are Alexander the Great, the Caesars, Genghis Khan, Antilla the Hun, Timurlain, Napoleon and more recently Hitler, Mao and Stalin. him. The overwhelming difference between each of the above what compared with President Trump is their lack of global reach. Now, it's an interesting point because I've had this debate with a few people that I genuinely believe Donald Trump is the most famous person that's ever lived. And I base that purely on the fact he's the most famous person in the world at a time of social media. And social media means your reach as a celebrity is exponentially greater than it could possibly have been, however good or bad you were in history.

19:45Piers Morgan:And if you, you know, so I just think logically, there was a survey, I think, in his first term, so never mind now, which said that he has more media attention, Trump, globally, than the next 1 ,000 celebrity stroke public figures in the world combined. So there is an argument that Trump is, you know, certainly on that, to have a global reach, the biggest star we've ever seen in the history of planet Earth. But he wants it to be slightly different. He would like it to be framed as the most powerful to ever walk the planet. Now, again, Douglas, from a historical point of view, is the current President of the United States, whoever it is, actually, is there an argument that that person, Trump or otherwise, is the most powerful person that's ever lived.

20:32Well, look, I don't... It's sort of the Andy Warhol version of history that celebrity is what matters. And if you add social media to the equation, then you can argue Donald Trump is the biggest celebrity of our time with the biggest reach. But, you know, when you're 80 years old, you don't live forever. That's the thing about being human. That's what demagogues and authoritarians don't always understand. Is he going to hand his power down to his sons so it's the reign of Trump forever? Look, you could put your name big on buildings. In Chicago, there's a building, Trump. It'll be gone someday.

21:14You know why? The biggest building in Chicago was John Hancock's building, and they took John Hancock, the the Revolutionary War heroes name off. They end up on Route 66, big Trump letters on some roadside stand where people will pay to go eat, you know, Cracker Jacks and feed a goat. You know, it's a fame in this world comes and goes, ebbs and flows. The question is whether his leadership was great. Did he move the world in a proper, new and smart direction? And you get a lot of zeros coming out of Donald Trump, an issue like climate change, our whole July 4th ceremony here with 100 degrees sweltering heat coming, people dying in the East Coast, people dying in England from climate.

22:07And here's a president who's a denier of climate change. Nothing to do. We got to stick to fossil fuels. Well, that might look good now. well, that really looked good 100 years from now. I'm just giving you an example. And he was going to end the war for day one in the Ukraine and ended in the Middle East. And these things continue to go on. So at the end of the day, when you leave office, there's a ledger. What did you accomplish? What you didn't? Will he be always Donald Trump's name in gold? Yes, in Las Vegas, Atlantic City. They'll be selling Trump t-shirts in Gatlinburg, Tennessee, in Tombstone, Arizona.

22:45But whether he deserves to be in a league of something like Abraham Lincoln in America or Franklin D. Roosevelt, I sincerely doubt it. I can't see how that could be the case. But to your argument, any American president now could be called the most powerful person ever.

23:03Piers Morgan:Yeah. Because of the weapons we have. Yeah. AI. So to that point, it's true. That means Joe Biden was just a couple of years ago the most powerful person in the world. Yeah, that's what I think. I think the current occupier of the Oval Office actually probably is the most powerful person in history. So in a way, if all Trump said was, I'm the most famous person the planet's ever seen, probably true, and I'm the most powerful person as President of the United States the world's ever seen, that's probably true as well. He doesn't actually have to overhype this one. Right. Let me bring in Professor Casagrande back.

23:44Piers Morgan:I'll quote you actually from Andrew Roberts here, who was among many of his talents, the most brilliant biographer of Winston Churchill. And he said that America was always considered the good guy by Churchill. He knew that America was key to defeating Hitler and the Nazis and taking on Soviet communism and so on. And I'll come to Andrew for whether he still thinks that now. But what do you think? I mean, people talk about the special relationship, for example. Obviously, there's a lot of attention on that because of the 250th anniversary of America breaking away from British rule. But, you know, has America been the good guy?

24:26Piers Morgan:When you look particularly at the foreign policy since World War II, you know, quite hard to find an example where America's taken military action pretty much anywhere, where it's turned out to be an unfettered success. It's normally ended up being quagmires and a lot of dead people, a huge amount of money being spent, and no one's quite sure what victory looked like or was supposed to look like. And you look at Iran now. The Iran war is a classic example of that. Is America the good guy? Is it the global good guy policeman, or is it something else? So I don't want to completely dismiss everything the United States has done that is positive, so let me just start with that.

25:09The security arrangement that the United States created for Europe post-World War II, I think, can be categorized as good. At the end of the day, Western and Central Europe were obviously worried about being sucked into the Eastern Bloc. The Soviet Union definitely started off as more of a defensive thing, the Eastern Bloc, but as time went by, it definitely became more aggressive. And so I can see how you could see it that way. I think Prime Minister Carney of Canada kind of said it best recently, where he said, the United States misbehaved on a regular basis. I'm paraphrasing. I don't remember his exact quote.

25:48But it's something to the effect of the United States misbehaved and we're willing to turn the other way because we thought at the end of the day, the United States was providing the world with a good. And that good was enough that we could ignore Vietnam. We could ignore Iraq. We could ignore the debacle in Afghanistan. The problem is, is once you stack, you know, overthrowing al-Kawadli in Syria in 1949, and then you throw in overthrowing Mossadegh in 53, and you throw in overthrowing Arbenz in 54, and Salvador Allende in 73, and I forgot Patrice Lumumba. Like if you just keep stacking all those democracies that the United States destroyed and train wrecked and then throw in all the nasty wars that we did and then all the proxy wars that we supported and were on the wrong side of.