‘NOTHING Empowering About This!’ Can You Be An OnlyFans Girl AND a Feminist?

0:00I wrote a little song to remind you, Choice Hotels gets you more of the experiences you value. The Cambria Hotel's got it all. A rooftop bar, have a ball. Cocktails up here feel just right. It's Cambria amazing, alright. Bring a date, your team, or even your mom. Book direct at choicehotels.com. See you on the roof. There's absolutely nothing feminist about what you do. You're basically, you've just cut out the middleman and you're commodifying the female body. There's nothing empowering about that. Here's my question to you. Why is it not degrading to get naked for your husband if it's degrading to get naked for public men?

0:43That's a very simple answer. Is it because you assume your husband's more likely to respect you? Your husband is the man in your life most likely to beat, rape and murder you. Your husband's the man in your life who 58 % of the time is going to cheat on you.

0:53Piers Morgan:My only worry is that what it's become is a kind of genuine career path for a lot of young girls who might look at this and think, all I need to do is set up an OnlyFans account, take my clothes off, and a bunch of guys will pay money to watch me do my thing in a webcam or whatever it is. A British philosopher once said, you can't spread your bum hole on a Saturday and then expect to be treated as a professional on a Monday. The evolution of gender and feminism is a source of endless debate in popular culture. I tackle the issue head-on in my new book, Woke is Dead, which includes some essential wisdom on the subject.

1:28Piers Morgan:I look forward to debating it. One question I admittedly did not think of tackling specifically was this one. Can you be an OnlyFans model and a feminist? Fahad Khalili says you can and that she is living proof of it. Men pay to look at explicit content, blaming the women is just hypocritical. Esther Krakow, however, vehemently disagrees. So when we heard that both Esther and Fahad could be in the same studio at the same time, we thought what a perfect opportunity for a lively debate on this subject. So welcome to both of you. Esther, of course, I know you very well. Baham, we've never met. We last appeared in a debate where you were down the line and we were talking about Lorde's provocative new album, which featured a woman's pubic hair, I believe, on the cover.

2:12Piers Morgan:And you took a screenshot of our exchange. Let's look at the clip first. You can say nothing sexual about it. I don't disagree with some of what you just said, but clearly this is intended to be sexual. I mean, it's not... You know, you don't literally... I don't think it is. I don't think it is. Really? And you now have that as the banner for your ex account. I thought it was a funny screen grab. It looked like you and my father confiding me with something you found on my Instagram. I was looking away coyly. You can also tell I only own one dress. Basically, you're using me to promote your account, so I'm hoping for a share of the spoils.

2:52Of course, yeah. Thank you.

2:53Piers Morgan:You understand that? Yeah. OK, good. Let's get serious for a moment. So OnlyFans is a massive business, generating billions of dollars, a lot of people doing all sorts of different things on there. It's not just about, you know, women doing sex work, whatever they want to call it. How would you categorise what you do on OnlyFans? I mean, my content isn't necessarily that extreme, but I definitely don't want brownie points from people who are eager to slut-shame the women who do more extreme content. So when I go on platforms, I just call myself a digital prostitute because, you know, I want the backlash for it.

3:27Piers Morgan:A digital prostitute? An e-prostitute, yeah. What does that mean? You know, like an e-girl or an e-boy, I just call myself, like, an e-prostitute. Like, it's online, it's not actually physical or in the real world or tangible, but it's virtual. And do you actually have... Do you have sex on your platform or not? No, I'm actually a virgin. Really? Yeah. Wow! And my name is Bob. What, you don't believe her? Absolutely not. Well, why would she lie? Well, I just... I don't know what the connection is between... Again, I mean, that's why I partly... Are you being serious? I'M BEING DEAD ASS. THAT'S PARTLY WHY I DO ONLYFANS.

3:59IT'S BECAUSE I'M TRYING TO POINT OUT THAT YOU COULD BE A VIRGIN IN A WAY THAT ISN'T ABOUT PURITY CULTURE OR RELIGION. YOU COULD BE A VIRGIN IN A FEMINIST WAY WHICH MEANS YOU DON'T WANT TO BITE THE BULLET AND JUST JOIN HOOKUP CULTURE OR PUT OUT JUST BECAUSE SOCIETY TELLS YOU TO. I THINK IT'S REALLY UNFORTUNATE THAT RELIGIOUS CONSERVATISM HAS A MONOPOLY ON ABSTINENCE CULTURE BECAUSE 45 % OF WOMEN REGRET THEIR FIRST TIME. 30 % of women regret a sexual experience in the last 12 months, right? So I'm very interested in carving out a space for secular women, non-religious women, feminist women, to also know that they can hold on to their chastity if they want to in a way that doesn't align with the toxic purity culture.

4:32Piers Morgan:How old do you know? I'm 26. 26? Yeah. So, Esti, why would you not believe her when she says she's a virgin? I don't know many virgins that strip off and call themselves e-prostitutes. I think it's quite rare. It doesn't mean she's not. I mean, it's definitely a unique perspective. Can I just ask why? So it's empowering to take your kit off, and I'm assuming... I don't know how extensive your portfolio is. What kind of thing do you do on your... I mean, to categorise for those you've never seen it. I mean, you've just got to subscribe and see. I would say, you know... Absolutely not. That's a good marketing, though.

5:06Subscribe and see, but... Subscribe and see. I mean, I offer girlfriend experience. You can come on and I'll pretend to be your girlfriend for a little while, pretend to not be repulsed by you. I offer slutty photos and videos. And, yeah, I just don't know what the connection is to virginity, you know? There really is no connection.

5:20Piers Morgan:Well, I guess if you're massively sexualising yourself, there'll be a presumption that you've had sex. And it's quite interesting to me that you say you've never... You've never had sex. Yeah. Well, that's kind of the whole point, right? That's what I'm saying, is, like, people are unable to conceive of virginity outside of just wanting to appeal to the male gaze and being attractive to men. And I'm not a virgin because I think it'll make me more appealing in the dating market. I'm a virgin because most women regret their first time. They regret betting the bullet. and our dating pool is full of horrible men, and I think women should wait more so that they're not just going through that ringer of sexual regret.

5:50Piers Morgan:Esther? I'm rarely speechless, Piers. You are? But I think I'm actually speechless. She doesn't have a response. Well, no, it's not that I don't have a response. First of all, this ideology. I mean, look, it's your personal belief, and you can obviously do what you want with your body. I'm just confused what you find empowering about showing pictures of your anus on the Internet. Can you explain that? I can. Well, first of all, I just want to point out that, like, it's really interesting to me that the first time the culture and men specifically are interested in talking about, like, the morality of sex work and how it's degrading to women and its effects on, like, the social fabric and namely its effects on relationships.

6:24It's conveniently once women like me started turning a seven-figure profit off of it, right? Up until the advent of OnlyFans, it was exclusively feminist. It was exclusively women. But there's nothing feminist about what you do. You do realize that. As I was saying, it was exclusively women. It was exclusively feminist who were the sole critics of Pornhub. It was exclusively women who would protest things like Playboy, like Andrea Dworkin put out a book on porn saying men possessing women and in response playboy churned out these uh cartoons depicting her fucking other women basically calling her a dyke and a man hitting bitch right anytime women protested pornography men said that you are vilifying male sexuality and men were so eager to make uh porn synonymous with male sexuality right and i just think it's interesting that's exactly what you do like your your customer base are men you sell the girlfriend experience is it to other women um i do have some lesbians on there yeah okay but it's predominantly I DON'T THINK THERE'S ABSOLUTELY NOTHING FEMINIST ABOUT WHAT YOU DO.

7:13YOU'RE BASICALLY, YOU 'VE JUST CUT OUT THE MIDDLEMAN, BUT YOU'RE BASICALLY WORKING IN THE PATRIARCHAL ECONOMY AND YOU'RE COMMODIFYING THE FEMALE BODY. THERE'S NOTHING EMPOWERING ABOUT THAT. I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOUR DEFINITION OF EMPOWERMENT IS, BUT EMPOWERMENT IS NOT MOMENTARY AUTONOMY, WHICH IS BASICALLY WHAT YOU DO. I CAN DO WHAT I WANT. EVERY HUMAN BEING SHOULD BE ABLE TO DO WHAT THEY WANT. BECAUSE THAT'S BY VIRTUE OF YOU HAVE A GREAT THING. YOU HAVE A GREAT THING. YOU HAVE A FREEDOM OVER YOUR BODY. EMPOWERMENT IS COMPOSED OF THREE THINGS. ONE, EXERCISING AUTONOMY WHEN YOU WANT. TWO, BEING ABLE TO MAKE THOSE CHOICES RESPONSIBLY AND TO LIVE WITH THE CONSEQUENCES WHICH I DON'T THINK YOU ACTUALLY CAN OR REALLY HAVE CONTEMPLATED.

7:46THE THIRD THING IS MAKING CHOICES THAT DON'T LIMIT opportunities that you have in the future. There's nothing empowering.

7:53Piers Morgan:But it seems to her best to play devil's advocate, it seems like she ticks all those boxes you would say, right? I mean, you know what you're doing. You're taking responsibility for it. I agree with what she's saying. I'm not a choice feminist. I think choice feminism is intellectually lazy. I think the choices you make... Okay. What? There's choice feminism now. That's an interesting intellectualisation. Please continue. No, no, I say I'm not a choice feminist. I thought you were saying you were against choice feminist. Like, you were just saying that, like, okay, me saying my body, my choice isn't morally interesting enough.

8:20I'm saying there's nothing feminist about what you do because it has nothing to do with female empowerment. All you've done is cut out the...

8:27Piers Morgan:Why is it? Isn't the whole point of feminist empowerment that actually a woman can do what she wants with her body? No, I actually don't even agree with that. No, it's not. It's not. Wow, I've been let up a garden path. Here would be my question to you. Why is it not degrading to get naked for your husband if it's degrading to get naked for public men? That's a very simple answer. Is it because you assume your husband's more likely to respect you? Because it's in the context... Your husband is the man in your life most likely to beat, rape, and murder you. Your husband's the man in your life who 58 % of the time is going to cheat on you.

8:55Your husband's the man in your life who 50 % of marriages and a divorce, and women cite that they felt disrespected, right? So why are you assuming that by sexualizing yourself for your husband, you're reserving a seat of respect from a man versus sexualizing yourself for the public domain? Because you're not sexualizing yourself for your husband. You're engaging your intimacy in the context of a committed relationship that has... One in which he's 50 % likely to cheat on you. 50 % likely to end a divorce. Of course everything comes with risk, but I'm sorry. Treating yourself like, treating your body like a bunch of orifices for hire is not more empowering.

9:23Women that are in committed relationships that are married are much less likely to be in poverty than women that are not. There are actually societal benefits of women being in committed relationships and also not commercializing loneliness in men, which is basically what you're doing. A man paying you a virgin, which I'm assuming is because you've never had a relationship, for the girlfriend experience is laughable. It is ridiculous. I don't believe in the male loneliness epidemic. Did you know that Sony found 89 % of OnlyFans subscribers are married? The male loneliness epidemic is absolute bullshit.

9:50That's pathetic. But the point is...

9:51Piers Morgan:Let me ask you... I don't have a problem with what you do. Let me just try and get my head around this. So I'm curious about the economics of this, because I'm told that... I mean, for instance, there's this woman, Sophie Rain, said to be OnlyFans' biggest earner, with estimates of up to$50 million a year coming from her business. I mean, how much are you making? I don't know the specifics, but I've made over a million dollars. Over a million dollars? In what period of time? In two years. In two years. You did train to go to law school, right? I was initially planning on going to law school, but I started doing TikTok full-time straight out of college and then was doing social media, I guess.

10:29Piers Morgan:What do your family make of what you're doing? Honestly. Well, my father's dead, and my mom is tolerant of it, I think. She was more opposed to me even putting myself out there on TikTok when I was just doing, like, very casual skit content and stuff, right? So to her, this is just another extension of that. An extended family? Do you have any siblings? I do have siblings. I think they just find it cool. Not necessarily the OnlyFans specifically, but I think they think it's cool that I do social media and do stuff like this. I'm interested in this whole feminist empowerment thing because I assumed, falsely it appears, that that meant the whole point of it was men shouldn't be telling a woman what to do with her body.

11:09Piers Morgan:She has power over what she does. She has power over her idea of femininity. She can do what she wants. If she wants to show off on her OnlyFans account to people prepared to pay to watch it, and it's all legal, why do you care? I don't care, but I think the idea of calling it empowerment and somehow feminist is completely ridiculous. And this is why definitions matter. This idea that having momentary autonomy over your body is somehow empowering. I'm sorry, gorillas do that. Like, everyone, every living being should and does ideally have autonomy over their body. That's a pretty low bar. You're not comparing it to the gorilla.

11:47Piers Morgan:I'm not. I'm just saying every living thing objectively has some sort of autonomy over their own body. We're talking about empowerment, which is what feminism was supposed to be. Feminism was supposed to be about autonomy, obviously, and having choice over your body. It was supposed to be about allowing women to make choices that give them the dignity and independence to pursue their own lives as they see fit. And also, in pursuit of that, with the responsibility of making the choices that you're making, knowing that those choices will actually give you more opportunities in the future. None of what you do qualifies for that, other than the momentary autonomy.

12:18Your options are not going to expand because they're pictures of your bumhole on the internet. It's going to be a lot harder if you want to be a politician, for example, or a CEO, or a lawyer. What if she doesn't want to be? That's fine. By the way, that's fine. But part of empowerment is also being able to make those choices responsibly and live with them. Are you in a relationship? Hold on. Yes. With a man? Yeah.

12:37Piers Morgan:How long has that been going on? It's pretty new. And what does he feel about what you do? He's supportive. Really? Yeah, he's actually been on this show. Really? Hang on, who is it? Do you know Dr Jack Symes? Yes. When did I interview him? About... Does he know that he's being... No, hang on, I'm trying to remember who he was. No, he doesn't know I'm on OnlyFans. No, does he know that his relationship... Wait a minute, I need to get to the moment. So what was he on for on Uncensored? With Natalie Winters talking about, like, the Quran and sexual violence or something. Yes, I remember this, yes.

13:11Piers Morgan:So, did you meet him through this show? Through this show? Yeah, was it after you saw him on the show that you... I think I'm sure he saw more salacious content elsewhere. Yeah, he subscribed to my OnlyFans. He couldn't get enough. No, I met him at another, like, philosophy event we were at. But he knows what you do. Of course. And he's fine with that? Yeah. Oh, OK. Yeah? Yeah. You seem a little bit, like, unsure. Well, it's not like he's going to be ecstatic, jumping for joy about it. Really? But are you empowered? He's not... Yeah, like, he's supportive, for sure. Would he rather you give it up?

13:44I don't know. We haven't talked about it yet. It's a pretty new relationship.

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16:39Anyways, why is it degrading for me to just have vanilla? If I were to just show myself just naked, nothing degrading, I'm not getting shot on, I'm not getting pissed on, I'm not doing Why is that even degrading? But why do you assume that even just being in a state of undress there's nothing degrading about it for random people that don't know you? Why is it not degrading to do it for your husband? Wait a minute. Wait a minute.

16:58Piers Morgan:Now, I'm going to call you up on this. Because you, on your Instagram, do often post videos of yourself pole dancing. And you're very good at it. But you're often quite scantily clad. What's the difference? Well, I need skin contact. First of all, I will tell you why. I have a photo. I need skin contact with the pole to actually grip the pole to do what I do. That's just the nature of the sport. And I certainly don't do it for the male gaze. No one pays me for it. It's just a form of cardio and sport. Really? Yeah, it is. That's really difficult. You only do it for cardio? Yeah, I only do it for cardio.

17:32Really? I promise, yeah. But a British philosopher once said, you can't spread your bum hole on a Saturday and then expect to be treated as a professional on a Monday. And this is my colleague right here, Esther Bacow. Why post it? Why post it? Why not just do it privately? Because I want to. I've never even been upside down on camera. I'm sure you've done other things on camera.

17:53Piers Morgan:I do think you do. But you can subscribe and find out. Why is this okay? Why did she have to post it? Why did she have to post this? Because I was in a poll club. Oh. And I did a move that I'd been practicing. Oh, this is worse. You did it for free. Oh, so I should get paid. I'm retiring my parents. I should get paid. Oh, okay. Here's the thing. But why did you post this? Here's the thing. Were you teaching people? Because I wanted to. I've actually taught as well before. Oh, but I thought it has to be empowering. You can't just be your body, your choice. I'm not the one sitting on the internet, spreading my legs open, telling people to pay me for it.

18:22Yes, you are. Yes, that's worse. Telling people to pay me for it and then saying that's somehow empowering to women. If you know anything about poled up... Okay, so you're posting this and saying, I'm not saying this is empowering, I'm degrading myself, but I'm posting anyway. How is that degrading myself?

18:35Piers Morgan:Well, she's a very highly skilled poledancer. Oh. Well, it is a... I was going to ask what can you do, but I'm sure you'd have to subscribe to find out. But the point I was making is, you do realize there are gradations between domestic abuse and online prostitution. Do you recognize that? Wait, explain what you mean. Well, you keep saying that what is the difference between getting naked for my husband, who's 50 % more likely to beat me up, and 50 % more likely to rape me in order... He's the man in your life most. I could have killed you, so I'm asking you, why is it more degrading? Yeah, but that's domestic violence, and actually what you decided is murder.