“OFF From The BEGINNING!” Charlie Kirk Shooting Conspiracies With Piers Morgan

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0:28Charlie Kirk:That's an easy shot, 200 yards. As a sniper, which I am, you pick which nostril you want, I'll put it in it. For me, I mean, it was off it right from the beginning for me. Why did his shirt move the way it did? It was, well, he was obviously wearing body armor and it was deflection. No. Why were people being interviewed saying, yeah, they came from my left to right, from his right to left? Official story sounds like it needs to be investigated, but now, you know, the whole crime scene's gone. They paved over it. Nothing to see here. This is some kind of grand conspiracy. You would have to get a surgeon on board that had no idea this was coming, and you would have to get the chief medical examiner for the state of Utah to agree to this.

1:08This is a murder investigation. This is a homicide.

1:12Rob O’Neill:It's accessible. It is a sewer system. And that's where this young individual disappeared into.

1:18Piers Morgan:If you were dismantling this rifle, how long would it take you to do it? It's going to take a solid five minutes, I would guess. That immediately says to me, well, that's a bit odd. It is a bit odd, right? Tens of millions of people saw the horrific video of Charlie Kirk's assassination, whether they wanted to or not. It's a symptom of a culture in which everything is live-streamed and every moment is analysed, debated and often manipulated by people who no longer trust anything. If you've spent any time at all online in the past week, you'll have encountered many conspiracy theories about Kirk's death and so-called evidence that the official story is incomplete.

1:54Piers Morgan:Everyone from Joe Rogan to Candace Owens has speculated with varying degrees of intensity that there's more to this than meets the eye.

2:00Charlie Kirk:I don't necessarily think they know what's going on yet. There's a lot of weird shit going on with this. First of all, there was that one guy who was the decoy. The family says that the photo of the young man that is coming up the stairs, which was shared, that blurry image, is definitively not Tyler Robinson. And let me just say, I never thought it looked like him. Neither did you.

2:26Piers Morgan:All of this is probably quite hard on Kirk's family and friends, but we've learned the hard way about dismissing all theories out of hand or simply telling people they're not allowed to talk about things we don't like. So we're going to look at these so-called Kirk-spiracies in a bit of detail and ask whether there is actually anything to them. Joining me now is the former US Navy SEAL, Rob O 'Neill, Joseph Scott Morgan, the co-host of the Body Bags podcast, and a scholar of applied forensics at Jacksonville State and the former CIA agent Mike Baker, host of the President's Daily Brief. Welcome to all of you.

2:56Piers Morgan:Thank you. Rob, welcome back to our session. Always great to have you. Just from a purely technical point of view, there's been a lot of speculation that a young, non-military trained, it appears, 22-year-old man could be at two football fields 175 yards away from Charlie Kirk and yet kill him apparently so skillfully with one bullet through his neck. Just from a technical point of view, how difficult is that shot to make?

3:28Charlie Kirk:Good to be with you, Pierce. Thanks for having me. That's an easy shot. Even for someone, I mean, they throw the word sniper around almost as much as they throw the word hero around way too often. Anyone with a hunting rifle, a.30-06 like that, that's an easy shot. 200 yards as a sniper, which I am, you pick which nostril you want and I'll put it in it. So that's easy. The issues just for me, I mean, it was off it right from the beginning for me, from do we not guard rooftops anymore? There's been assassinations, assassination attempts all over the world. Why When I was sent the video at the same message where they said Charlie Kirk was just shot, when I watched that horrific video, he was obviously dead before he hit the ground.

4:14Charlie Kirk:But the questions immediately started to come to me. That was not an entry wound that we saw. We saw an exit wound. So where'd that bullet come from? You don't bleed like—and I've shot guys closer than the camera was. And an entry wound doesn't look like that. An exit wound does. Why did his shirt move the way it did? When I've shot people, their shirts didn't move like that. And then the initial reaction was, well, he was obviously wearing body armor and it was deflection. One, no, he wasn't wearing body armor. And two, it doesn't deflect like that off of body armor. Why was his shirt moving from right to left?

4:43Charlie Kirk:Why were people being interviewed saying, yeah, they came from my left to right, from his right to left, immediately shut down? And then did they tear the crime scene down immediately? Just right off the bat from seeing it, knowing he was dead, saying a lot of this is bad, not even getting into the soliloquy of text messages that 22-year-olds don't send their trans lover. So immediately, it's just, the official story sounds like it needs to be investigated. But now, you know, the whole crime scene is gone. They paved over it. Nothing to see here.

5:12Piers Morgan:It's really interesting that you think that, given your extraordinary experience. Obviously, you're the man who shot and killed Osama bin Laden. You were a Navy SEAL for 15 years. He's served in some of their most high-profile missions. So you think that there may well be some substance to some of these conspiracy theories?

5:29Charlie Kirk:I'm just saying, especially in my experience with the Bin Laden raid, if you don't see it happen, people are going to say it didn't happen. So unfortunately, we're in a state of affairs where if I'm not there, I'm not going to say it did or didn't happen. I'm just saying what jumps out at me with AI right now, with everything that can be made up. If you don't see it firsthand, you don't know what happened. Videos can be made. It's just immediately it seemed off to me. Plus, as a sniper or a hunter, you don't take a neck shot. You take a next shot because you missed.

5:56Piers Morgan:Let me bring in Joseph Scott Morgan. You're a forensics scholar. What do you think of what you just heard there from Robert Neal? Yeah, I think it's a fine assessment. One of the problems is, is that at this point in time, from a medical legal perspective, we don't have any data to go on. All we have are the speculative things that are floating about the Internet. By the way, not doing anybody any good here. We have a surgeon who was hands-on there that treated Charlie, and he even made reference, I believe, to, he said that Charlie was a Superman, Man of Steel. In other words, what he's saying, the round passed through, and it didn't strike anybody else, that the round he's implying, at least, did in fact embed itself in his body.

6:45Now, what the status of that round is, I don't know. We don't have an autopsy report yet either, which is a huge problem. if you want to speculate on wound tracks and these sorts of things. And there are people out there that are actually saying that there was not an autopsy performed, even though it is required by Utah state law. The state medical examiner is put into that position where they have to do the autopsy. So if this is some kind of grand conspiracy, you would have to get a surgeon on board that had no idea this was coming, and you would have to get the chief medical examiner for the state of Utah to agree to this, which seems very fanciful at the very least.

7:27The autopsy thing is totally baffling. Why would there not have been one? Yeah, it's... First off, let's stop using the word assassination. That's one of the problems we ran into with Kennedy. From a death investigator's perspective, a forensics guy's perspective, this is a murder investigation. This is a homicide. All right. You politicize it when you say assassination. Let the Utah State Police and let the medical examiner do their job in this particular case. Let them work this case as it is as a homicide and draw upon the physical evidence. And the reason we don't have these documents right now is this kid's going to be prosecuted.

8:10They're going to take him to court and they're going to prosecute him and they're going to seek the death penalty. So don't be shocked if we don't see an autopsy report for some time. And don't be shocked that the Utah State Medical Examiner keeps their mouth shut in here. Because there have been other cases where people have run their mouths in advance, and it winds up getting in far more trouble.

8:32Piers Morgan:But does your gut tell you, Joseph, that this is most likely to have been the shooter we saw on the roof, who is this 22-year-old who's obviously facing the charges on the death penalty? Yeah. Yeah. You know, at this point, I have no other reason to believe that it was someone else, you know, some phantom that may have snuck up behind them that had popped off some kind of round from some other type of weapon platform that would have been in his rear. It just seems it seems to me. And look, I agree with with Rob relative to relative to the round. This is a very easy shot. I'm older than most of you guys.

9:16I had to qualify with iron sights at 300 yards in the army. I'm not a very good shot. But way back when dinosaurs roamed the earth, that's even an easy shot with a steel sight. So, yeah, I'm not, you know, with a telescopic sight from that range, yeah, I think it'd be a walk in the park.

9:35Piers Morgan:Let me bring in Mike Baker. I mean, Mike, whenever there's a high-profile shooting like this, there's always raging conspiracy theories, and that's been massively exacerbated by social media. And by a lot of, you know, people probably in the world of debating these things, sometimes acting in deliberate bad faith, where they're just running with the conspiracy theories because it's getting loads of views and making money and so on. And I'm not going to be a hypocrite. We're running a debate here about the conspiracy theories to try and get to some reality. But I certainly don't want to promote stuff if it's outlandish.

10:08Piers Morgan:With all your experience as a former CIA agent, What is your overview of the Charlie Kirk killing?

10:16Rob O’Neill:Yeah, look, things, most of the time, things are as pretty much as simple as they seem. And the other truism here is social media and the internet, I don't want to sound like a Luddite, but pretty much destroys everything it touches. So the social media conspiracy theory started literally within a couple of minutes of people becoming aware that Charlie had been shot. You know, everything from this is a professional hit and the unwarranted confidence of people on the Internet and in social media to push forward their ideas is astounding. One minute there are there are Russian criminologists. One minute they're a pandemic expert.

10:56Rob O’Neill:You know, the next minute they're they're an expert on assassinations. And if you combine that nature of human tendency along with AI and deep fakes, it's no wonder that you disappear into social media and it's accessible. It is a sewer system. And that's where this young individual disappeared into. So the idea, again, you always have to be careful. Well, every investigation has to be built on facts, right, on evidence, on information. And our tendency, because we want an immediate answer, because we've all been trained for that and everybody's got ADHD, is they don't have the patience. And as was just pointed out, I agree with everything that was just said.

11:42Rob O’Neill:You've got to give these investigations time to sort themselves out. But that's not what people want. They want an immediate answer. And if you don't fill that void, they're just going to make crap up.

11:52Piers Morgan:Everything that you've read, though, from more authoritative sources, is there anything ringing alarm bells? I mean, people have been talking about why did he leave the weapon wrapped in a towel? You know, a lot of coverage about him running across the rooftop. Would he be able to dissemble the rifle as fast as he apparently did, throwing it down his pants and jumping off the roof and so on? Is there anything about any of this which, to you, rings alarm bells or not?

12:19Rob O’Neill:him uh no no i mean i again that's that's you know it's a simplistic answer and yes the investigation is still ongoing never say never right you never you know there's always going to be something that that could surprise you but look this guy obviously looked at uh butler as an example rob said it himself at what point do we do we look around you could have scattered that perimeter and without really any formal training and said, I think I see a few problems here. And I would look at this from more of an operational perspective as how do you prevent the next one? How could you have prevented this?

12:58Rob O’Neill:Well, look, it's hindsight and that's a terrible thing to go on. But at the same time, they should have locked this down a long time ago. Charlie was getting death threats. He talked about them. He shouldn't have been doing events out in the open. You'd put them inside where you could lock down the perimeter. You could screen people. You put up metal detectors. You just provide a more secure environment. But again, I don't want to armchair quarterback this thing, but that's where I typically go. I don't disappear down. Well, I think...

13:27Piers Morgan:Right. Let me bring Rob back in, because you raised a really interesting question, Rob, which is Donald Trump was nearly assassinated by a young guy around the same age as this shooter on a roof about the same distance from somebody speaking in public. Charlie Kirk was an extremely high-profile conservative, you know, representative of the conservative movement. You know, going into big open-air areas with roofs everywhere, it does seem quite staggering to me. And it was staggering to me when the Trump one happened, that someone like that could get that close on a flat roof with a clean shot at the President of the United States.

14:06Piers Morgan:And then even more extraordinary, eight weeks later, somebody hid in a bush at a golf course and nearly killed him there. You know, I just, again, I'm not a big conspiracy theory person as a rule of thumb because most of them turn out to be nonsense. But you haven't got to be a conspiracy theorist to think, what is going on here?

14:26Charlie Kirk:Yeah, I agree with you. I wasn't with the security team, and I don't want to pass judgment on their decisions that were made, but it's like it almost seemed like in the aftermath, too, everyone's shifting the blame where we had personal security, where there should have been local cops. Well, the campus security had this. It's like, look, man, give me five dudes, tier one guys, we'll lock it down. And the first place we're checking is the rooftops. Then we're checking the bushes. You're looking for little stuff like perfect circles and squares, perfect circles, perfect squares, perfect lines don't exist in nature.

14:56Charlie Kirk:So you're looking for scopes, you're looking for lines of a barrel, stuff like that. It should be locked down. And then, I mean, just even, you know, even going back, speaking of conspiracies, going back to 9-11 with the plane hitting the pentagon we have one camera on the most secure area in the world why is it now in 2025 we got grainy footages of a dude who might not be the dude where's i mean you got people with with this technology all over the place everyone's got a camera in their hand why is it we get one grainy footage of a dude that looks like someone's son it just doesn't make sense to me it's i mean you go back to uh you know was jack ruby just a great american because he killed leah harvey oswald while he was saying he's a patsy or was he a patsy who's involved and why And it's again with, you know, and just because of I'm talking here next to my phone, the algorithms listening to me, it's going to start shifting all this conspiracy stuff so I can look at it when I'm scrolling through my phone.

15:40Charlie Kirk:So it's very important to realize what's real and isn't real. But it seems to me like, yeah, nobody's really been fired or gotten a lot of trouble for stuff that's happening that, I mean, look at the Secret Service detail. Look at the cops that were in that town. What have the counter snipers done? Is there any accountability other than the people who get shot? I mean, at some point, there's got to be truth-telling and accountability. I'm seeing none of that except, you know, conspiracy series and everyone, myself included, is an online lawyer that has all the answers. Let me get straight to the point.

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17:36Piers Morgan:And it's not just talk. One Skin Scientist did a clinical study showing that after six months, participants had significantly thicker and denser hair. If you're ready to give OS1 Hair a try, you can get 15 % off your first three-month supply with the code peers at oneskin.co. Yeah, I mean, let me bring Joseph back in here. When we look at stories like this, one of the other aspects is that a lot of people come out, particularly on the left, and my views about this issue are well known. I'm not going to legislate those again, mainly because I'm not American. But I think on this one, many people say, well, obviously, if there was more gun restrictions, gun control, that these young, unhinged people wouldn't get their hands on weaponry.

18:27Piers Morgan:But it seemed here he just took his grandfather's old rifle. I'm not sure there's any new gun control law you could bring in that could stop that happening. I mean, what do you think of that part of this debate? No, there's not. What are you going to do? Go to every house and get Papaw's old hunting gun? Because that's what this comes down to. We're talking about a Mauser 98 bolt-action, 30-06 rifle. Look, I live in the South. I can tell you the lion's share of people have at least a bolt action in their house, all right, and a shotgun. And, you know, what are you going to do? Go door to door and seize all of the weapons?

19:03That ain't happening. I can tell you that. So the idea that this can be some way interdicted, I think, is quite an interesting consideration. But on the other hand, we've got an entire generation that's out there that has little or no help for mental health issues. And I think a lot of this goes back to that. You know, you begin to think about the road this guy was on. And I don't, you know, I don't personally know him, but I do know that he's disturbed enough, at least at this point, it appears that he's willing to take out Charlie Kirk in front of hundreds of other people. And by the way, if you just track that round from where he fired from, if he was off just a couple of inches, that round would have been powerful enough to have passed through maybe a couple of people en route.

20:02He had a very small window that he was aiming through. If you look at the top of that tarp and then the top of the heads below, that guy had to get that shot off through there. If he had miscalculated in any way, it could have killed other people. So you've got somebody that certainly is not risk averse here. And the big question is, why would that be? Why would this be normalized behavior? Because I got to tell you, it kind of seems like it is sometimes.

20:27Piers Morgan:Yeah, I don't disagree. Mike, one of the big sort of conspiracy theories raging, Joe Rogan was particularly skeptical about this one, was the role of a guy called George Zinn, somebody who acted irrationally, erratically at the scene and was initially arrested. Let's listen to what Joe said.