"Puts Britain In a HUMILIATING Position!" King Charles' State Visit To US | With Jonathan Dimbleby

0:00I'm glad the King is coming. I think it's a great honour that he gets to address Congress as his mother did. I just think it humiliates us that we are seen to be scraping and groveling to a president who frankly doesn't seem to have a lot of respect. This is a supreme moment, the most important moment that King Charles will have in his entire monarchy. Any visit that the royals do, whether it's William and Kate over to America, the King and the Queen, is going to throw up, well if they're here, they're that close to Meghan and Harry. Why isn't there a meeting? It puts Britain in a rather humiliating position.

0:33It makes us look like a supplicant who will do anything to keep a relationship with the United States and with this president, despite what the president says and does. Frankly, we don't need any lessons in how to conduct our business from the folks over in the UK.

0:49Piers Morgan:Well, so far this year, President Trump has insulted the Brits who died in the Afghanistan war. He's really called the British Prime Minister as weak, dismissed the British Royal Navy as non-existent and written off Britain's warships as toys. All of this while demanding Britain's weak leaders sends his non-existent navy and his toy warships to support Trump's war in Iran. Against his backdrop with US-UK relations at the lowest point in 70 years, King Charles will make a state visit to America in just a few weeks' time. The potential of this to heap further embarrassment on the monarchy is obvious, not least because the king's brother, the former Prince Andrew, is still ignoring calls for him to testify in the US of his friendship with Jeffrey Epstein.

1:25Piers Morgan:Prime Minister Starmer famously neutralised Trump with a grandiose invitation to dine with the king on that unprecedented second state visit to the UK last year. It's fair to say he didn't remain neutralised for long. As the US president continues to hurl insults at Britain over the Iran war, many in the UK are angry that the monarch is once again being wielded as an antidote to Trump's tirades. Some say it's inappropriate at a time of war full stop. And Jonathan Dimbleby, the official biographer to King Charles, joins me on Uncensored. Jonathan, welcome. Welcome to Beyond Your Programme. Great to have you.

1:59Piers Morgan:I was watching your brother David last night raging about the fact that this royal visit is going ahead to the United States in three weeks. How are you feeling about it? On this occasion, I agree with him completely. I said my bit about this about two weeks ago when it first came up. I think that it's a mistake. I think the government have made a mistake in sending him there for various reasons. And what are the reasons that you think are the most compelling? I think two essential reasons. One is I think it puts him in a very embarrassing position potentially. And secondly, I think it puts Britain in a rather humiliating position because it makes us look like a supplicant who will do anything to keep a relationship with the United States and this president, despite what the president says and does.

2:47And the offensive way in which he talks about the king, his offensive remarks about NATO, of which we are a leading member, as the US is supposed to be and always has been. And I think that he has a... Trump has. I think Trump is, at best, in my terms, mercurial. Of course, he will treat the king with great courtesy. And of course, the king, on his official visit, will behave with great dignity, charm, and will do his job perfectly. However, I would be surprised, at least there is a serious risk, that having been charming to the king, he will contrast his feelings for the king, for England, for Scotland, the monarchy, with his feelings for the prime minister.

3:32And I think that puts the king in a very difficult position. He'll do that contrast by going on what he calls truth social, which, for me at least, is a violation of terms.

3:44Piers Morgan:I mean, the counterargument to this, and the reason, of course, Keir Starmer will want the royal visit to go ahead, is that the unprecedented second state visit that we afforded Donald Trump last year was a big success, went without incident. I spoke to President Trump the morning after the state dinner here in England the next morning, and he was ecstatic about it. And so I guess if you're Keir Star and you've got this big wobble in the fable special relationship, it may just buy you a little bit more grace with Trump to get things back on an even keel. That's the argument. Yeah, I think it's an argument that if I were sailing in the boat, I would risk getting into the lifeboats.

4:27It would be safer. I think it's a pretty poor argument, frankly, because just go half back to when that took place. And you're right, I'm sure. And the way in which he spoke to you about it, I'm sure it's how he felt. And I've picked that up all round. However, it hasn't stopped him behaving towards Britain in ways which are, as I described, uncomplimentary, undignified and unfriendly. And I think that, therefore, the case against it holds. Of course, the argument in favour, as well as what you've just mentioned, is that the long-term relationship, and this is what the king will, I'm sure, make the most of, the long-term relationship between the two countries goes back a very, you know, centuries, is one that matters and he will be careful not saying anything that suggests that this president is here today, gone tomorrow president, but he will anchor it, I'm sure, in the long-standing relationship.

5:24And that's, I guess, what the king and the people around him will create along with the government in a speech. Fundamental thing is the government asks, effectively says, Your Majesty, will you go? And the king, because of his role, he has to do that. I mean, he doesn't have to do it, but it'd be very difficult not to do it because he knows his role as head of state. And I think he is being put in a very difficult position, which I think it's not wise to have put him in.

5:52Piers Morgan:There is another aspect to this, which I don't think we should overlook, which is the royal family's had one of the most torrid years imaginable with the Andrew scandal and all the tentacles that have flown out of there. They've obviously also had, in recent years, the death of Prince Philip, the death of Her Majesty the Queen, seismic, seismic things going on, the Duke and Duchess of Sussex turning rogue and so on. And I suspect that you know, when you wrote the book, he was mere Prince Charles, now he's King Charles, but you know him better than many. That was an authorised biography and you got to know him well.

6:28It wasn't technically authorised. I never had to get authorisation for it. Oh, really? No, absolutely didn't. I never did at any one point. They had the capacity. I had a massive access, just to be boringly detailed, and they could at any point not have given the go-ahead on some of the letters that I printed because you can always, at any moment, as you will know very well, people can pull letters. So I had that. I had no other constraint put on me whatsoever.

6:54Piers Morgan:Well, I certainly wasn't meaning to offend you with that term. Why don't we make it... You had an incredibly well-sourced book. Yes. It was not approved, but it was facilitated. Got it. It's an important clarification. And my point being that you got to know him very well. And I suspect he's a smart guy, he's a wise guy, he's very experienced. And there must be a part of him, Jonathan, I would argue, that is thinking the two most powerful kind of entities in the world, arguably, are the American Congress and the British monarchy. I mean, you can make other arguments for others, but they're right up there, right?

7:38Piers Morgan:And he's got an opportunity to go and not just have a big state dinner, which will get huge coverage in America, where a lot of people will come to this country as tourists off the back of the royals, but also he's going to make an address to the joint Congress. And that's a big thing for any monarch. I don't know. I mean, you will probably know, but did the Queen ever do that? Yes, she has done that. And the King has... I believe I'm right, and I may be wrong about this. I think it's Prince of Wales he may have done, incidentally. But you're right. Of course you're right about the importance of that, whether or not they're equal in the scales, as it were, the elected Congress and the unelected monarchy, if you like.

8:23But they're both very substantively important international institutions. Of course they are. And I think that's what will be in the mind. And I suspect that what is being crafted for him to say, and he will put his own stamp on it, incidentally, in Congress, will go out of its way to demonstrate what we've sort of touched on, the importance of that long-standing relationship. I shy away from the term special relationship. I think you will know better than me. It's not often referred to like that in the United States. No, it's not. And I think it's odd, because I think it's self-deception, to call it the special relationship.

9:04In the end, relations are about self-interest. I mean, I write history books of self-interest, and the United States, as it came into the Second World War, out of enlightened self-interest, under this president, does what he thinks is in the self-interest of the United States. Whether it is, of course, is highly debatable, which is why it is such a contentious presidency. So it won't influence the way in which he acts. And to be honest, the fact that he happens to like the monarchy is neither here nor there in the effectiveness of the relationship between the two countries and whether or not he treats with respect to this country, whether or not he negotiates or allows to be negotiated trade relations of the kind that this country needs.

9:55He's so... I use the term, he's so mercurial. Well, you know it. You know it, Piers.

10:01Piers Morgan:I thought my daughter, who's 14, had the best line about Trump. She kept hearing me say in interviews, he's a unique character. And eventually she said to me, Daddy, you keep calling Donald Trump a unique character. Do you think there's such a thing as being too unique?

10:20It's very nicely put. Very nicely put.

10:23Piers Morgan:I'm told in my ear by one of my brilliant team that Charles has actually never addressed Congress. His mother, the late Queen, did in the early 90s. So he'll be the second monarch who's done this, because obviously before Queen Elizabeth, you couldn't travel to America, so you wouldn't have been able to get there even if you wanted to. So it's a very historic thing. And I think my final point about it is that if you're Charles, you must be slightly thinking, this puts me centre stage on the biggest possible platform, the United States Congress, as the mnemonic of the United Kingdom, and after all the crap he's had to deal with, including a lot of health issues and everything else, this is an opportunity to just be centre stage on the biggest of stages.

11:10I THINK HE'S COOL ABOUT OPPORTUNITIES TO BE CENTER STAGE, TO BE HONEST. HE'S BEEN CENTER STAGE IN MANY WAYS FOR SO LONG. HOWEVER, I THINK YOU'RE RIGHT. HE WILL REGARD THIS OPPORTUNITY TO SPEAK TO CONGRESS AS A SIGNIFICANT OPPORTUNITY. AND THAT IS THE BEST ARGUMENT IN FAVOR OF HIM GOING. AS I SAID, I'M A GINNET, BECAUSE IT WILL COME UP AGAIN. BUT I THINK THAT THAT IS RIGHT. HE WILL MAKE THE MOST OF IT, AND IT WILL GET A LOT OF COVERAGE, AND PEOPLE WILL POUR OVER THE FINE DETAIL, WHICH IS WHY I CAN And imagine that his advisers of the palace and number 10 and the foreign office are all working together like crazy to ensure that it's crafted in a way that does Britain as much benefit as possible and does any relationship with the United States as little damage as possible.

11:55Piers Morgan:What they should do, they should take you and or your brother because Donald Trump told me once, not so long ago actually, after the last state visit, that he had watched the coronation of Queen Elizabeth on his mother's knee in New York when he was six years old. And that was when he saw how much the royal family meant to his mother. And he then inherited this love of the royal family. And, of course, that broadcast that he watched would have been the one that your father, Richard Dimbleby, anchored for the BBC. It was one of the first big things that was ever broadcast. And changed the world of television, incidentally.

12:32It dramatically changed because people started to buy televisions in very large numbers. Yes, they did. And we know where it's taken us, for better, for worse.

12:41Piers Morgan:Well, a dimblebee started it, and a dimblebee is with me now. I told you about it, so dimblebee's going to finish it. Jonathan, great to have you. Thank you very much. Pleasure. For joining me to debate all this, journalist and Vanity Fair Royal correspondent Katie Nicholl, host of the News Agents and former Washington correspondent for the BBC, John Sopel, Sir Anthony Seldon, historian, author of The Architecture of Diplomacy, and the host of the Sean Spicer show, Sean Spicer. Well, welcome to all of you, all friends of the show. Anthony Seldon, welcome back. Let me just... From a historical point of view, I think I'm right in saying, because King Charles is going to address Congress, I think, on the Wednesday of their three-, four-day visit.

13:21Piers Morgan:And I think the only other person that's done that from the royal family is his mother, the Queen, in 91-2, when she went over there and addressed Congress. Otherwise, this has never happened. Absolutely right, Piers. And it's an incredible moment. And I think it's why he should go on this trip to remind the American people what democracy is all about. Now, look, the 250th anniversary, America broke away from the monarchy to create democracy. Who now has the better quality of democracy? The country with a king, with a monarchy and with a separation of powers and individual rights and respect for elections and all the rest of it.

14:05Or America, which is seeing those go down the sink. So I think this is a supreme moment, the most important moment that Prince King Charles will have. in his entire monarchy to get a world stage to speak about values that are eternal and which speak of deep enlightenment, respect for truth, the dignity of each individual and a restricted power of the state. So I think he should do it. I think he should seize the opportunity. And I think it will be the most powerful moment. And nobody else, I think, can do that.

14:46Piers Morgan:Just before I go to the other three, I mean, the problem is, and this is not King Charles' fault because it wasn't him that did anything wrong, but at the same time that he might be preaching about the power of dignity and trust and all the rest of it and all the things you've just so eloquently espoused, there's this ongoing sitting time bomb of Andrew, Mountbatten, Windsor, stripped of all his titles, who refuses to give evidence to the same US Congress about what he knew with Jeffrey Epstein, the convicted paedophile, despite paying millions to a girl he says he never met, who we now know the picture which he said wasn't true was true, because that came out in the emails.

15:33Piers Morgan:You've got this all simmering away, which is the complete opposite of what you've just said. How difficult will that be, do you think, for King Charles? He's already been in a walkabout in the UK where people have shouted out about his brother. It's going to be intensified a bit in America, I would think. Tricky, Piers, but this is what greatness is all about, isn't it? I mean, we have the very worst of humanity and the very worst of human behaviour in what Epstein did. And that should not trump, no pun intended, what is an opportunity to remind the world, as well as the United States, what this country founded 250 years ago, broken away like a rib out of the chest of Great Britain, to set up a country that believes in human dignity, human rights, in liberty, in limited government, in truth and in elections, to remind them about what the very best in humanity is.

16:43So the very worst of humanity should not be an excuse for this opportunity, which, if he does it well, as I'm sure he would, will totally, totally knock off the front pages, whatever problems could come up by association with Andrew Mountbatten with Windsor.

17:03Piers Morgan:OK, well, there is a man to your left and your right both pulling quite dramatic faces. Let me go to the American one first, who's been gurning away in incredulity at what he's hearing. Sean, welcome back to Uncensored. Apparently democracy in America is crashing into oblivion as we show the world what real democracy is about. I would also point out you're about to celebrate the 250th anniversary of your supposed independence, which if you hadn't gone down that route, you could have had King Peers by now, which would surely have been a better bet for you Americans. I think we're doing just fine, thank you.

17:44Look, all due respect... Really? Our former government... Really? Really. Yeah, really. I love it because here in America, we had these no kings protests, which is ironic from the sense that there seems to be an overlooking of the last election where Donald Trump won the popular vote. He won all seven swing states. We had a very robust democracy. It's like when the left and the folks in the media don't get their way, somehow democracy is under attack. If you look, ironically, it was the left, it was Kamala Harris that was coronated. Maybe we should have had a no Queens rally because it was Kamala Harris that didn't have to face the primary voters in the Democratic Party to become the Democratic nominee.

18:25It was Kamala Harris that lost an election very profoundly to Donald Trump. We went through our own exercise, which is called an election, which is the cornerstone of any republic, which is what we have, just to give you guys a little lesson in what form of government we actually do have here. And frankly, I'm looking forward. No, thank you, because that's what it is. I know you may not want to call it that, but technically it's true. But I'm looking forward to the King coming. We have, as we like to say, a special relationship with Great Britain. And on our eve of our 250th anniversary, regardless of what president's in office at the time, I think it's very fitting for the King in particular to come over and to discuss the relationship, the formation of our country, and the current relation that we have.

19:18I think it's great that he's coming. I know that there's a ton of side issues, and there always will be. At some time or another, it won't matter. There will always be something outstanding. I'm glad the King is coming. I think it's a great honour that he gets to address Congress, as his mother did. So I'm looking forward to his visit. I'm looking forward to celebrating 250th years. But frankly, with all due respect, we don't need any lessons in how to conduct our business from the folks over in the UK.

19:43Piers Morgan:OK. Well, a little warning card there. Let me bring in John Sopel. John, is this a good idea? for King Chelsea? Because the argument is that while there's a war raging, that's inappropriate. And particularly when the President of the United States appears to have gone rogue against this country. He's been very negative about our prime minister, about the country, about our military, about the way our military served in Afghanistan, which is somebody who had a brother who served in Afghanistan, I found particularly objectionable, I have to say. But is it right, do you think, that in three weeks,

20:23I think the thing is very, very awkward and uncomfortable. I was really struck by the statement that came from the palace yesterday, which started on the advice of His Majesty's government. Like, nothing to do with me. I didn't want to go. But honestly, the government is telling me that I really ought to. And I've had it on good authority that, you know, those in Buckingham Palace, before the second state visit when Donald Trump came back to Britain, thought that it shouldn't go ahead, that he was going to be up in Scotland, he could go and visit his golf course and then pop in for a very nice dinner at Balmoral and that should be it.

21:05And that it was too soon to give Donald Trump an unprecedented second state visit. I remember interviewing Keir Starmer. He said, well, this is unprecedented because Donald Trump is an unprecedented figure. I said, yeah, he's been impeached twice and has got a criminal conviction. As for the democracy point and Sean's point about, you know, don't lecture us, the 2024 election, Democrats don't seem to like it when they don't win. I 100 % agree with you. The 2024 election was entirely fair. Donald Trump won it, all the swing states, absolutely no question about it. What about the 2020 election when Donald Trump lost and there were 63 court cases and the head of election security said it was absolutely fine and the Attorney General said it was absolutely fine and the General Counsel in the White House said it was absolutely fine and one person couldn't accept it, Donald Trump.

21:57He doesn't have a great record when elections go against him, I would just gently say.

22:02Piers Morgan:I mean, I will let Sean come back on that in a moment. What I would say about that is I settled with Trump's face in the last interview we did and things got very acrimonious. I guess the argument is that in defence of America's democratic process is that Donald Trump did leave the White House, notwithstanding the fact he said the election was reed and I didn't lose everything else. He did leave when he was supposed to leave and democracy was seen to be done. So it may be that he doesn't. I mean, you know, I can remember. I'm old enough to remember when Hillary Clinton was questioning the result of the 2016 election.

22:36Piers Morgan:She used different language about it, but she was certainly suggesting that there. She didn't mount legal challenges. No, no, no, it was different. She was at the Capitol for the inauguration. She certainly was suggesting that this wasn't a fair fight. And I think the bottom line with, I guess, the American system, I would say, if I was an American defending it, is, well, Trump did leave. He may not have wanted to, and he might have disparaged that election and said it was rigged and so on, which it wasn't. But he did leave. So, in real dictatorships, they don't leave. Let me bring in, Katie, lovely to see you.

23:08Piers Morgan:from a royal perspective, putting aside the politics of it, because I think politically this is going to be good for Keir Starmer because right when he's under the cosh himself as a leader, he's seen an opportunity with this war to get back on the front foot a little bit and to show how big and strong he is and he didn't go into this illegal war and so on and so on just because the Americans wanted him to. I think he made some fundamental errors. I think he should have allowed the Americans to use our bases, for example, at the start. I think we are a NATO country. I think that you've got to do something.