'Raging HYPOCRITES!' Should Sports & Politics Mix? With Luke Beasley & Joey Barton

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0:24Management of existing subscriptions may be required to avoid multiple subscriptions and duplicate charges. Third-party built subscriptions continue until canceled. Just because I'm wearing the flag doesn't mean I represent everything that's going on in the US. One, shut up and dribble. And two, Republicans buy sneakers too. These Olympic athletes in many, many regards live in a bubble and are detached from reality. As are pop stars, virtue signaling every time they get a chance, you know, Billie Eilish. What are we doing, people? We're just jerking each other off right now, talking about how, oh my God, some statements people have made about what is a woman's kind of irrational.

0:56Okay, cool, good. We need a safety valve. When they pump out anti-racism messages, it's not that they don't care about racism. They want to take a break from it. I thought that you weren't a big fan of things like taking the knee, the rainbow laces and so on. I started the rainbow laces, Piers. You know that. Many people have been angered this week by the political statements of Team USA stars at the Winter Olympics. Asked about President Trump's deportation crackdown, skier Hunter Hess said, just because I'm wearing the flag doesn't mean I represent everything that's going on in the US. Curling star Rich Ruhonen has now backed him up.

1:39What's going on in Minneapolis is wrong, he said. There's no shades of grey. Well, my reaction, like many Americans, was indignation, not about their views specifically, but about the fact they express them. Sport and politics shouldn't mix. And more's the point, there's no higher honour, surely, than representing your country at a major international sporting event. You're there to represent the hopes and dreams of all of your compatriots. You wear a flag and colours which stand for ideas and values spanning generations of history. It's far bigger than grubby ephemeral politics. So for a few weeks at least, just shut up.

2:21There is, however, always a tweet. This is what courage looks like, said one Piers Morgan, as the Iranian national football team snubbed their national anthem in protest at the Qatar World Cup. I previously called for the England cricket team to take a political stand by boycotting matches against Afghanistan over the Taliban. Once upon a time, I even supported the England football team for taking a knee. And on that subject, there was a sustained campaign in the US, which ordered NFL and NBA stars to shut up and dribble as they spoke out on racial issues. The same people didn't seem to mind when players started doing the Trump YMCA dance after he was elected president.

3:02So we're all probably a bit hypocritical about this. Should athletes have the right to speak their minds? Does it depend on what athlete, which country, which issue? or should they all just shut up and dribble or ski? And like I said, are we all basically just raging hypocrites? Well, joining me to debate this is the commentator of the Times of London and the former Olympian, Matthew Saeed, the former footballer and football manager, now host of Common Sense podcast, Terry Barton, the host of Crane & Company, David Cohn, and host of the Luke Beasley show, Luke Beasley. Well, welcome to all of you.

3:39Matthew Saeed, my team very kindly found evidence of my rank hypocrisy about all this, which I kind of knew was probably lurking there. I suspect most people are tinged with it, that inevitably, if it's a cause that you support, feel passionately about, or it involves a country like Iran, for example, the rules of don't speak out disappear quite quickly. do we need to be consistent or is it actually morally defensible to have one rule for that kind of situation and another for, say, free democratic societies? Well, tragically, I agreed with almost everything you said in that intro, which is a slightly worrying prospect.

4:24I mean, I'm massively into politics. I stood for Parliament after the Olympic Games in Sydney, which was one of my last competitions for Tony Blair's Labour Party. I write on politics. I'm going on Newsnight later today to talk about British politics. I'm so obsessed with it that I was at a dinner last night giving a talk with an audience, John Redwood, a former leadership contender for the Conservatives, Lord Lilly. And I think it's great to be interested in politics, but I do believe that a healthy society needs an opportunity to switch off. And sport for me, largely, is a safety valve. You can relax, get away from the contention.

5:02That's such a healthy thing to have in any society. You know, if everything is politicised, sport, art, private lives, you're moving towards totalitarianism. That's what really dictatorial societies had. I mean, my sport was table tennis, and the table tennis players from China were held up in the 50s as icons of revolutionary virtue. They were playing for the regime. And then during the Cultural Revolution, they were bastions of revisionism. That's terribly unhealthy. And I don't like the armbands and the laces and the taking of the knee. All of these are politically contentious. Even things that might seem politically neutral or something we can all support, like we're against racism.

5:46But why not we're against sexism or we're against autocracy? Whenever you make a choice about the slogan you're going to emblazon on a football match, it becomes political. However, I have to confess to hypocrisy, because as you were talking, Piers, I thought to myself, well, hang on. I've written a number of columns saying that Russia should be thrown out of global sport because of the invasion of Ukraine. So I think you're right. When you're deeply passionate about an issue, and I think Russia's invasion and continuing on sort in Ukraine is one of the great atrocities of the modern world, then, yeah, I think I feel like I should speak out.

6:22But by and large, that importance of having some aspect of our culture as a way to get away from this deeply polarised political debate, I think is vital. You know, it's interesting, I'm a member of the Qatar World Cup when Qatar were getting attacked because homosexuality, for example, is illegal in Qatar. And a lot of people caught in the hypocrisy trap there, David Beckham and others who were big LGBT allies, supposedly, but then took millions to go and work for the Qatar government during the World Cup. But the interesting fact pointed out to me was, actually, of the 32 countries that were in the finals, one in, I think, eight of them, so a quarter of all the countries, it was illegal to be homosexual.

7:08Most of the African nations were competing and so on. So, you know, you've got to be morally consistent here. Oddly, you were sounding a little bit like Joey Barton with some of that, which is not something I ever thought I would discover on the airwaves. Joey, good to see you. You know, when I hear Matthew there, I kind of think he's right. I mean, you've been on this thing about virtue signalism for a long time. Do you think there are any exceptions? And if you're honest, have you yourself, have you ever, you know, found exceptions? Have you ever, as a player or a manager, had a cause you've spoken up about?

7:43Or have you been morally consistent and never spoken about any of this stuff? Well, firstly, Pete, you'd be surprised to know that me and Matthew were once neighbours and spent a lot of time together. So it's no coincidence. We do share a lot of conversations and we've disagreed and agreed on many, many things. And it's wonderful to see your face, Matthew, as well as the other guys on the panel. Look, for me, I think sport is a huge part of certainly our country and a worldwide culture. And, you know, when I think of being a kid, you know, all the different political messages that have been raised through me watching incredible athletes, whether it was the Olympics or sport in other countries, raise awareness to it by taking a stand and saying what they believe.

8:34And I believe in a free democracy, that we have to have the ability for people to showcase their beliefs. Sunlight being the best disinfectant, if people believe in something and they want to raise people's awareness to it, then I do think they should be allowed to do that. I mean, it is difficult, and I do agree with Matthew and how much and how little of it we allow through the gate. You know, sport then becomes, you know, a bit of a pantomime towards the political motives. But I do feel that, you know, if people feel really strongly like the athletes in the Winter Olympics, I don't agree with what they're protesting about because it looks like it's a hot topic in America.

9:18But what I do agree with is their right to protest it and raise awareness to it, because I've paid attention to it more now than I ever would have because of these athletes in America. And the discourse and the discussion around my dinner table is about, you know, the rights and the wrongs. And it does allow people to converse and conversations lead to, I think, better outcomes. David Cohn, I mean, it struck me when I was watching the Team USA athletes in the Winter Olympics. criticising their country and trying to create a bit of a divide between them and what maybe some of their compatriots feel and so on.

9:56That, to me, slightly crosses a line. You know, I was thinking about if it were Team GB athletes, for example, in any Olympics, and they began criticising Britain on an international stage, representing their country with all the flags and all the patriotism that goes with that, I'd be pretty pissed off, I think. I can understand why many Americans have been annoyed about this. What's your view?

10:46legend Michael Owen, who lost£40. AFTV's Robbie, who lost more than£100. To watch their full stories and many more, scan the QR code on your screen or visit OxfordNatural.com slash peers. And here's the best part. Use the code peers and get 70 % off your first order. Get 70 % off with the code peers. Well, Pierce, thank you first for having me on. You hit on some very important issues in your open there. And I've had this discussion many times with my two co-hosts, Jake and Blaine Crane. And inevitably, two phrases come up. One, shut up and dribble, which you brought up. And two, Republicans buy sneakers, too.

11:26Now, I have never been in the shut up and dribble camp. I don't believe just because you are an athlete, you should shy away from voicing whatever opinion that you have, provided that you can accept the responsibility and whatever consequences may come from your employer or your family or your community. Muhammad Ali was a world-class athlete. He felt compelled to speak up on the Vietnam War and various other issues. You know, where I take issue, though, Pierce, is when we are forcing athletes to take a stance, okay? And this really gets to what are you called in this life to do? If you feel you are called by God to speak out on such an issue in addition to your athletic ability, then by all means pursue that.

12:04But Michael Jordan was also a world-class athlete. He didn't focus on anything but singularly being the greatest basketball player he could be. He said, Republicans buy sneakers, too, and I am not going to speak out on any issue that I am not an expert on. And I think that most of us have room in our hearts to respect both approaches there, provided that they are done in a genuine, sincere and quite honestly, a respectful manner. It's interesting. It's interesting. Matthew, I was going to actually ask you this, actually, because that's just reminded me of a good example of the kind of moral bullying that sometimes goes on to signal one's virtue in sport.

12:43And the classic example to me, is it James McLean, the footballer who refuses to wear a poppy? Is that his name? Yeah. The Irish footballer, Northern Irish footballer. Yeah. And if people, you know, every year it's the same debate. He won't wear a poppy in the run-up to Remembrance Day. And his argument, if you actually listen to him, makes perfect sense. He's from Derry in Northern Ireland, scene of the Bloody Sunday, one of the, you know, a real atrocity, really, committed by British troops against the people of Northern Ireland at the time. And he comes from one of the very streets that was most caught up in this.

13:20And it would be, in his eyes, a betrayal. And as he pointed out, the poppy represents everyone who has served in the British Armed Forces. It doesn't just mean World War I, World War II. It's everybody, including the members of the parachute regiment who committed that atrocity on Bloody Sunday. And so once I heard his long explanation, I thought, well, who are we to bully him morally into wearing a poppy when that is his reasoning for not wearing it? And I felt the same way about, you know, for example, there have been football players who are committed Christians who, you know, have a problem with homosexuality.

14:02I'm a Christian, I don't happen to agree with them. But they are, and it's a religious-based belief in their case. Should they be bullied into wearing LGBT regalia, for example, when they're playing, even if it's in countries like Senegal, where the backlash against their families could be extreme, right, for doing that. And, again, I don't think players should be bullied in any sport into doing that kind of thing by governing bodies. So that, I think, was a really interesting point by David. What do you think, Matthew? Well, I think the line here is... Joey's talked about sports people having the right to express an opinion.

14:40Of course they have a right to express an opinion. They can do it on a sub-stack or they can go onto a soapbox. but leveraging the cultural collateral of sport, using the sporting arena, the field of play, that's why I have a problem with it. And when governing bodies support the rainbow laces or taking the knee, and then somebody doesn't want to get involved in that, they don't want to be political, that's when it becomes very difficult for them. And one thing I would perhaps say in defence of the American athletes peers that you mentioned, is I think some of them were not expressing an opinion just after the race when a microphone is put in front of their mouth.

15:16They did it in the press conferences after because they were asked specifically of their opinions by the journalists. And then it becomes invidious for them because these are people who are good at hitting a ping-pong ball over there or good at skiing down a slope. They don't necessarily wish to offer an opinion on... We do. That's why we come on the show. But the thing I just wanted to briefly point out is when Michael Jordan was asked to support the campaign of a Democratic senator, I think, who was trying to unseat Jesse Helms, a Republican who was a bit notoriously on the right and perhaps mildly racist.

15:48He said, no, Republicans wear sneakers too. That was a marketing decision. He wanted to use the Nike brand to connect with as many consumers as possible. And Tiger Woods used that too, never said anything controversial, stayed away from it, not because he wasn't political, but because he thought that if he was a billboard for multinational brands, he didn't want to alienate any consumers, Republican or Democrat. I think that has shifted. Gary Lineker was a bit like that. You know, he was a billboard for Walker's Crisps and he was very non-political. But I think the world has changed a bit. And now, you know, Colin Kaepernick and others have leveraged politics in a way that I think makes it actually commercially viable to become quite political.

16:36And it's a very interesting change, that, over the last 15, 20 years. Well, I think that's a really interesting point. Let me bring in Luke Beasley. I want to play a mashup of the Team USA athletes getting political at these Winter Olympics so the viewers who haven't seen it can see it in the proper context. I'm really hoping to show up and represent my own values. Values of inclusivity, values of diversity and kindness and sharing. It brings up mixed emotions to represent the US right now, I think. Yeah, it's definitely a tough time in our country right now. And I think I just continue to represent my values.

17:09Just because I'm wearing the flag doesn't mean I represent everything that's going on in the U.S. It's been a hard time for the community overall under this administration. I think that as a country, we need to focus on respecting everybody's rights and making sure that we're treating our citizens as well as anybody with love and respect. So Luke Beasley, what do you make of that? Yeah, those are patriots. That is so incredible that they chose to say that. as was referenced, some of them, I think, got asked or maybe all of them and maybe were encouraged to share their view. But we all as or, you know, I'm American.

17:47Americans just watch the world just watched the president come out in his administration and lie about people who had been shot during protests. To me, I'm a little bit disoriented by this conversation because it's like all of this thought and stress you're referencing. I guess some people out there are upset that they're speaking out. To me, I wish that outrage was channeled at the reasons that they feel the need on the world stage to speak out. But I will say a lot of people are misrepresenting what they're saying. It cracks me up because some of them go, I just think we should represent love and kindness and compassion to which MAGA reacts.

18:20They must be attacking us, which no one even named Trump, it didn't sound like, but was just speaking about the moment of division. And then in many people's views, including mine, an authoritarian shift in the United States. And to use your platform to do the most American thing in the world, which is represent your country and your people while being critical of your government, to me is the height of patriotism. And last thing, I do agree. But how would you feel? Okay, but how would you feel? Yeah, okay. All right, but Luke, how would you feel if it was a conservative boating athlete at the Summer Olympics during the Biden administration ripping into Joe Biden, for example?

18:58In other words, if you're honest, you have an intellectual honesty about this that is not based on partisan politics. It's easy to say, well, I love them whacking Trump or the Trump administration, but would you feel the same way? You know, I had the same debate in an earlier debate about the Bad Bunny Super Bowl performance, right? Everybody, it seemed to me, took politically partisan lines and a lot of it was ridiculous because they would have said the complete opposite had it been their gun. In other words, if Kid Rock had been the halftime show, all of those saying Bad Bunny's a leftist activist and shouldn't be allowed to perform, would have said, oh, great, we've got a right-wing activist.

19:35That's fantastic. So my question for you is, would you feel the same way if it was a conservative voting athlete whacking Biden, for example? Okay, hear this out. Hear this out, okay? I would not like it because they would be wrong, and what is being said by the Olympians now is correct, but the reason that I wouldn't like it is not because I don't support the fact that people can and even should, in many cases, if they feel compelled, use their platform and their influence to advocate for what they believe in. So actually you can't go find any clips of me being like, shut up and dribble or people shouldn't talk about politics in this space or that space.

20:11I agree we're all a little bit tired with everything being politicized, but in a sense, it's kind of one of those moments where you're called to. So for me, I am morally consistent on this because I think you absolutely have that right. The reason that I'm critical of Nicki Minaj, for example, is not because I think she should just stick to music. it's just because I disagree with what she's saying and so I'll critical or I'll criticize what she's saying and not the fact that she's saying something okay Joey Barton I mean I was quite surprised by your initial answer actually because I I might be wrong but I thought that you weren't a big fan of things like taking the knee the rainbow laces and so on uh I mean just clarify that I started I started the rainbow laces Pierce you know that all right so you've been very supportive of that?

20:58No, I started it. So it was myself, Stonewall and Paddy Power, the bookmakers in the UK. Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah, that had the idea. It was then taken on by the Premier League. And why I was so vocal in speaking out against it was because I felt I was the one who lowered the drawbridge and what it got taken into and how it became politicised and the virtue signaling that exploded in our country. I felt it was used as a vehicle for that. And obviously, you know, I believe in free speech, even if that is what you don't want to hear. Now, when Mark Gay, the Crystal Palace, is now Manchester City captain, was forced to wear the armband that was rainbow laces, and he wrote I Love Jesus on it, which I referenced earlier, and he was sanctioned for that.

21:44I thought that's just where it overstepped. It was something that was used to raise awareness, which I think sport can do brilliantly. I disagree with the guys that you should just play football and shut up or play basketball and shut up. the world's changed that's the old world you know everybody now is a business on their own they've got their own social media they've got their own you know um business beyond should should right but should but should sportsmen and women be compelled to do it in other words if a sporting decision shouldn't it if you vote as a team if you say as a team right we're going to wear that or we're not going to wear it i think you should have the ability you know based on religion and whatever man in the sky people believe you should have an opt-out and they shouldn't you know james mclean point in case you made a great point he obviously doesn't align himself with the poppy lots of people in britain do he he doesn't he's an irishman um and he you know some irishman roy keen for instance will wear the poppy on when he does his punditry on sky sports but james won't and obviously there was atrocities in cork in the troubles and with the British Empire and obviously the latter day one that James takes umbrage to because he knows people in court directly in the problem there and how it affected the lives, he rightly opts out of the poppy and I totally agree with his stance on it there should be no sanction, he shouldn't get the authorities or anybody looking badly on him for it and that's where we have to be careful with it because sport, I remember all across my journey, certainly being influenced by sportsman Robbie Fowler wearing a Dockers t-shirt, many, many different ones, as we spoke about the athletes at the Olympics where they held up the hand with the black glove.

23:31They're historic moments where sportsman Muhammad Ali, the greatest sportsman ever, gave up his career to stand up for people. He says, I haven't been called a bad word by anybody from kind of Vietnam, and I'm not going to go there and kill those yellow people or whatever he said at the time. They've done nothing to me. And when you think about the impact that had, it would have been easier for them to say nothing. And if all sportsmen say nothing, and whether you disagree with it, I don't agree with what these guys are saying. When you look at the Winter Olympics, it's already a niche population of freestyle skiers from Colorado or Aspen, man.

24:10so they aren't going to like some of the policies that are hurting the working people of america you know these olympic athletes in many many regards live in a bubble and are detached from reality as are pop stars as we've seen at the grammys or movie stars as we see you know the virtue signaling when every every time they get a chance you know billy eilish um living in a in a house that's on native land or whatever so that's where it's wrong but i do believe you know we should allow the sunlight of that to be the best disinfectant and show people how to be hypocrites and there's also other people like in our country for instance kevin sinfield who should but should have got a knighthood and we've got mps getting knighthoods and kevin sinfield's just gone and done the business for his friend raised loads of awareness and that's the way to do it that's a sportsman using this platform correctly yeah yeah matthew say you've recently pointed about I got behind that Hillsborough petition, which I think you joined along late, which helped get the families, the names read out in Parliament.

25:14And that's where the sport, you know, that's just one thing, but sports can be huge for that. And I think we've got to protect people's right to express their opinion. That is, even if you disagree with it, even if you don't agree with where they do it or how they do it, you know, footballers used to lift the tops up and have something written on the top and jump into the fans. And they've sanitized all that because they don't want it. They don't like where it goes and it might hurt viewers and it might hurt money getting made and sponsorship and the right look. Well, the right look is not allowing these atrocities to take place.

25:44They don't have to worry about control and the speech of people and players. Right, well, Matthew, you touched on this when you said that it's become commercially viable for people to take positions now. I was struck by Pep Guardiola, the Manchester City manager, because I was a little bit cynical. I love Pep Guardiola, but he came out with an extraordinary political rant the other day. Let's just take a look at it first. This episode is brought to you by Fox One. Watch all 104 matches of the FIFA World Cup live in 4K for just$19.99 a month with three days free. Build your own multi-view, choose up to three streams and follow player spotlights.

26:26Stay on top of every moment with live stats, highlights and instant replays. The FIFA World Cup, streaming live on Fox 1, offers a subject to change. See fox.com for complete terms and conditions. When I see the images, I see the images. I'm sorry, it hurts. It hurts to me. That's why in every position I can help speaking up to be a better society. I'm not, I want to change anything, but I tried. I will be there. Look what happened in the United States of America. We are René Good and Alex Pretty. so have been killed. One in the infirmary, a nurse, NHS. Imagine NHS, you know, five, six people around him go on the grass, ten shots.

27:10Tell me how you can defend that. Now what was, the reason I was slightly cynical is I don't think he ever does that when Manchester City are winning everything. I think he, it may have been a distraction tool. I'm not saying for a moment he doesn't believe it, but it kind of plays into what you were saying that there's, There's no kind of big backlash now when someone like Guardiola does that, for example. And also, there's hypocrisy there because he earns his money from a regime that uses Labour who have their human rights abused. You can, whenever, I mean, the thing that I think is perhaps interesting as a former sports person is that we often deify these people.