“Release EVERYTHING!” Ted Cruz & Jeffrey Epstein’s Brother + Texas Floods Disaster

23:20Piers Morgan:I COMPLETELY AGREE. SENATOR CRUZ, GREAT TO HAVE YOU ON UNCENTER FOR THE FIRST TIME. DON'T LEAVE US ALONG NEXT TIME. ALL RIGHT. TERRIFIC. THANKS. PLEASE SEND ALL OUR VERY BEST WISHES. I'M HERE IN LONDON TO EVERYBODY INVOLVED IN THIS TERRIBLE TRAGEDY. I LOVE TEXAS. THANK YOU. TEXAN PEOPLE. IT'S A REALLY UNSPEAKABLE tragedy and our hearts go out to all of you. Thank you. Thanks very much. Well, I'm joined on the panel now by Natalie Winters, the White House correspondent Steve Bannon's Warham, commentator and YouTube host Brian Tyler-Cohen, streamer and political commentator Destiny, and Ben Ferguson, the co-host of The Verdict with Ted Cruz.

23:55Piers Morgan:Well, let me start with you, Ben, given that you work with Senator Cruz a lot. A, it was great to have him make his uncensored debut and obviously we focus mainly on floods, but what he said at the end there was really interesting I felt about the Epstein files because this is raging away. You know, the administration having got everybody very excited. You know, I had one of the administration on Uncensored, Alina had. Let's remind people what she told me literally like two, three months ago. It is incredibly disturbing. We have flight logs. We have information, names that will come out. Is it going to be shocking?

24:36I don't see how it's not shocking that there were so many individuals that were hidden and kept secret and not been held accountable. Let's talk about the reverse. I believe in accountability. So you have to now go through your process. Now, I won't say they're guilty until they go through their time in court. But again, now it's time for accountability. We have seen for so many years, Pierce, in this country, many investigations, subpoenas, testimonies in Congress, et cetera, et cetera. But there's a general frustration with accountability. We take it halfway. We don't take it home. And I really believe that now with Cash and Pam, there will be accountability.

25:16Piers Morgan:Now, Ben, that clip has had millions and millions of views this week, understandably, because there's a massive disconnect between what she told me there and what Pam Bondi was saying and what others were saying and what's actually materialized in the THE LAST 48 HOURS. YOU KNOW, SENATOR CRUZ THERE VERY FIRMLY THAT HE WANTS EVERYTHING PUT OUT AND HE WANTS CRIMINAL ACTION TAKEN AGAINST THOSE WHO BROKE THE LAW. WHAT'S YOUR VIEW? I COULDN'T AGREE MORE. LOOK, I THINK THERE'S TRANSPARENCY THE AMERICAN PEOPLE DESERVE, BUT NOT JUST THE AMERICAN PEOPLE, MOST IMPORTANTLY, THE VICTIMS. THEY DESERVE TO NOT HAVE THIS BE COVERED UP IN ANY CAPACITY OR FOR PEOPLE TO JUST STOP LOOKING.

25:55I DON'T KNOW IF THERE'S CERTAIN INFORMATION THAT HAS DISAPPEARED OR WASN'T THERE THAT thought was there. But at the end of the day, all that we do have needs to be put out there in a responsible way. You have to protect the victims. That is something that's extremely important. And so it's got to be done in an orderly way. But there are too many people that have talked about this on the record, saying that there's a lot of stuff out there to then all of a sudden say, all right, well, maybe we don't have it. Maybe it's not there. Whatever the story is, Give it to everyone the same way and make sure you protect those victims.

26:30But they deserve justice. And I don't think this is going to be the end of the story. I think there's far too many people that are asking the questions that you just mentioned, that the senator mentioned, that I'm mentioning. And this should be nonpartisan. This should be nonpolitical. You have children that apparently were sex, trafficked and abused in horrific ways. That has nothing to do with politics. It should come out whether the people that were the perpetrators of this were liberal or conservative or agnostic. It doesn't matter. You need to protect the victims. And we need to make sure things like this never, ever, ever, ever happen again.

27:04Right.

27:05Piers Morgan:Brian Tully-Cohen, I mean, I do think it's a nonpartisan issue. Obviously, nothing is these days. But I do think that it is completely baffling to me, just as a journalist, that you have this extraordinary scandal that rages away for many years. The main perpetrator dies in prison and is believed to have taken his own life, but the only person that's actually been made criminally accountable and is now languishing in prison is Ghislaine Maxwell, his kind of madame figure, who's a woman. So none of the other men who are widely believed to have been involved in this, none of them have been made accountable.

27:43Piers Morgan:What's your view of this? Yeah, I mean, my view is that this was a this is a con job by this administration. All of these people, Kash Patel, Alina Habba, Dan Bongino, Donald Trump, all of them came forward and said that this was a priority for them because they were stringing their supporters along. And then the moment they get into power, here we are in a situation where the whole thing is just closed and we have no further information on this. And yet, you know, look, I think it would be fools to to to be surprised. I mean, this is a guy, Jeffrey Epstein, who Trump himself paled around with for years.

28:17This is a guy who Epstein himself called his closest friend for ten years. This is a guy who Jeffrey Epstein said was his closest friend for ten years. This is a guy who Donald Trump appointed as his secretary of labor, Alex Acosta, who handed him a sweetheart deal, a non-prosecution agreement, where he was out of prison six out of seven days a week. So, you know, look, Trump can say what he wants on the campaign trail in the lead up when he needs to get everybody's votes and pander to the base. But at the end of the day, he's the guy in charge. And suddenly the about face from everybody in his administration, the buck falls to one person.

28:52It's not Alina Habba or Carolyn Levitt or Dan Bongino or Cash Patel. It's Trump himself.

28:58Piers Morgan:Right. I mean, Natalie, the interesting thing in terms of the timeline here is that when Elon Musk fell out pretty spectacularly and suddenly with Donald Trump, one of the things he posted on his X platform was, you know, bombshell. The biggest bombshell is that Trump's in the Epstein files, right? And that was only a few weeks ago. And since then, there seems to have been a concerted effort for this story to just go away. Now, these two things may be completely unconnected. There may be nothing more to it other than Trump obviously was seen around Epstein. They clearly were very friendly for a while.

29:36Piers Morgan:I think he used his plane several times. I don't think that's in dispute. But there does seem to be a weird timeline here of Elon Musk saying that publicly and everything getting shut down a few weeks later. Am I reading too much into this? Well, look, I think this is very quickly approaching. I mean, we've already passed debacle territory, but just outright grift, and that's probably not something that you would expect me to say, but this is just absolutely reprehensible. I think if you look at what really the MAGA base, the people who elected President Trump, what their sort of concerns have been these past few months is that the administration is not moving fast enough, right?

30:19They're not content with the press releases and the tweets. They want to see prison sentences and actual accountability for people that they believe committed crimes. Now we've hit the point where we're not getting, we're not even getting the press releases or the strongly worded letters. We're getting weird, undated, unnamed memos being released over holiday weekends to legacy media outlets trying to bury it in Axios instead of working with all the new media outlets that the White House, you know, pumped and talked so openly and heavily about being in and around the White House. I mean, this is a bedrock issue.

30:52I know I agree it's nonpartisan, it's nonpolitical to want to get justice for the victims. But I also think that this is something that is both hyper-partisan and hyperpolitical, because what Jeffrey Epstein was doing, whether it's a foreign intel operation or domestic aside or joint operation, has direct ramifications in probably the policies that we've seen being rolled out, whether through blackmail indirectly or directly, through a lot of the political leaders in this nation. I would just say as someone who has been on shows, co-hosted with a lot of the people, the clips that we've played of people who have called out Jeffrey Epstein for years and made millions of dollars off of it, it is absolutely reprehensible and And it is a complete grift.

31:30And you have now, in their words, probably become the deep state. If you're going to run cover for this and you think that the MAGA audience is dumb enough to not, I don't know, be able to go back two months and see the comments you were making on Fox News. We need to get this right. I don't even know if I have faith in Pam Bondi anymore. But this is a really, really concerning moment for MAGA.

31:49Piers Morgan:Yeah, I mean, Destiny, it is fascinating to see how a lot of the most diehard Trump supporters in the kind of podcast, YouTube influencer world, they've turned pretty vengefully against him and the administration over this. What do you make of it? So here's the reality. The reality is I keep hearing people like Joe Rogan saying the conspiracy theorists ended up being right about everything. They weren't. They were wrong about basically every single thing. There was no massive election fraud. There were no mass deaths from the COVID vaccine. There is no evidence that it was manufactured in a laboratory.

32:24There is no evidence that Jeffrey Epstein was murdered by somebody. The reality is every single thing I said is true, and I will debate you on any platform over that. So please stop, please stop, please stop. The one on Institute of Virology you're saying wasn't true. That's where you always could go. You have no idea. Well, hang on. Destiny, hang on. Destiny, hang on. That's just stupid. Hang on. Destiny, hang on. Let me finish my point. Excuse me. Let me finish my point. The problem is that you guys spent so much time spreading these conspiracies. But when you finally wound up, when you finally wound up, sir, I don't even know if you know, do you even believe that viruses and germs are real?

32:53I'm not actually sure. Please stop. The problem is that conservatives spent all this time, conservatives spent all this time, conservatives spent all, well, if you want to bring me on your show, I'll talk about it anytime, anywhere, okay? Conservatives spent all this time - I don't insult my audience with stupid comments. Well, hang on, let me jump in. Let me just jump in on this point. Can I, wait, hold on, wait, wait. Destiny, let me, Destiny. Let me wait. Well, you made a series of statements there about - And I'm almost in one sentence. All right. Conservatives spent all this time with all these conspiracies.

33:20And then as soon as they got into office and they no longer had a deep state to blame, all of a sudden there was no election fraud evidence. There was no evidence about Hunter Biden being conspiratorial, you know, with Ukraine or Russia. There was no evidence of Epstein being murdered. And that's what's happened. They are now the deep state. They have every part of the government under control and they have no evidence for any of their claims.

33:40Piers Morgan:Here's the problem. You've made a series of statements there alleging that all these things are pure conspiracy theories and there's no evidence for it. And yet it is widely now accepted that actually it is more likely than not that the coronavirus, COVID-19, was started in that lab. That is now widely accepted. That's not a conspiracy theory. It's not. It is. It began as a conspiracy theory. There is, I promise you, there is no scientific evidence. There is no compelling intelligence evidence. That is the case. So you think, Destiny, to be clear. I'm going to throw away all the samples. Hang on, hang on.

34:15You'll say, let me finish my sentence.

34:19Piers Morgan:Here's the thing, Destiny. You think it's literally a conspiracy theory that COVID-19, which was originally said to have started in a wet market one mile from the Wuhan Institute of Virology, where it later transpired they were testing new coronaviruses. You think it is more likely it started with a bat in the wet market next door than it started in the lab where they're literally testing new coronaviruses. You think that's a mad conspiracy? I would say the mad conspiracy is that it's the bat a mile away. I'm going to go with the wet market that was 30 minutes away in a densely populated city where all of the first cases started.

35:02It's 30 minutes away. Chinese Communist Party. Sir, you are an absolute idiot. I can't believe you're saying that. It's like when you do your shows, it's like brought to you by the Chinese Communist Party. Just to be clear, just to be clear, just to be clear, it's funny that you say Communist Party, right? Just to be clear, the residents of Kerr County for the floods that we were just discussing rejected utilizing ARPA funds for years to put up. It's so funny. Ted Cruz talked about an emergency siren system. They didn't want to use money from the Biden administration because of all of these crazy conspiracies that you guys spread about things like COVID.

35:33Because they thought that they accepted the money. I know about that. The transcripts are public. The transcripts are public, sir. I'm sorry, hold on. Are you telling me they didn't say that? Are you telling me they didn't say that? ...kicking your ass and you made up something to try to go back and use kids that have died in a tragedy to cover the fact that you cannot defend your Wuhan point of view because it's made out of Chinese communist propaganda. I think everyone watching can see that now. And I think you realize you stepped in it and you said something that wasn't true. And everyone that has a brain on this panel is calling you out for it because it was such a stupid thing to say.

36:07I'm sorry that happened to you, but you don't use kids dying in a flood to try to cover for your dumbass comment.

36:37The crown is yours.

37:08Terms at dkng.co slash offer. Limited time offer. Nationwide based on sportsbook predictions and free-to-play sports contest availability. Varies by state.

37:16Piers Morgan:Oh, by the way, I want to bring the others in. I want to bring the others in too. Hang on, hang on. Don't all shout at once. So everybody can see who's running from it, okay? Don't all shout at once. Let me bring Brian back in here. See, this is the interesting thing I think, Brian. I read what Joe Rogan put out about conspiracy theories. He was really saying, really what he was saying was, don't just dismiss them all out of hand, was his real theme about this. Because a lot of things are alleged to be conspiracy theories. And the COVID lab one is a classic example. Well, that began as being something that could get people cancelled, if they even dared suggest it.

37:49Piers Morgan:And it's now, you know, the U.S. CIA believes a research-related origin in Wuhan in the lab is more likely than the theory it came from animals. So the CIA now believe that. So it's no longer a conspiracy theory. But, Brian, I think it goes to a wider point. Is that take the Epstein story, right? I don't know whether he took his life or was murdered or whatever. It seems that most people who've looked at this professionally believe he took his life. But there's this weird video with the missing minute and Pam Bondi's torturous explanation for what that may be about. There's also the undeniable fact that he surrounded himself with a myriad number of famous, rich, powerful people who would have a vested interest in shutting him up.

38:34Piers Morgan:That is indisputable. There are also all these rumours flying around. which, you know, even Alan Dershowitz thought there may be some merit to this when I interviewed him on Monday, that he may have been some kind of Israeli Mossad agent of some sort. You put all this together, and again, it's very easy to say, well, it's all a conspiracy theory, to say that he did anything other than he took his life and nobody else was involved, there's no client list, nobody else abused these girls, it's over. I don't think that's the conspiracy theory. The conspiracy that's going on right now, it seems to me, is a conspiracy of shutting this down, of silencing debate about it, wanting to move on, and for actually nobody other than Ghislaine Maxwell to be held accountable when he is...

39:20Piers Morgan:I mean, look, take Prince Andrew, right, in my country. Prince Andrew paid Virginia Dufresne a reported$11 million, right, but claimed he never met her, right? But there's a photograph of him with his arm round her when she was 17, 18 in a London townhouse. Now, you know, call me a conspiracy theorist, but you don't give$11 million to someone you've never met, right? I don't care who you are. So, again, a lot of the stuff swirling around here doesn't make a lot of sense. And I don't think it's good enough for people just to say, it's all conspiracy theory. So shut up and move on. Your thoughts?

39:59I would completely agree. And in fact, we saw yesterday when the White House posed these questions, Trump freaked out and said, whoa, whoa, why are we still talking about this? Like, can't we talk about something? You've got Donald Trump, who has spent every waking minute of the past almost decade talking about the water pressure in his shower and toilet. That guy suddenly doesn't want to engage in a topic that he's spoken about before. We've heard him go on and on about immigrants being rapists and murderers every day. We've heard him go on and on for the better part of a decade about Hillary Clinton's crimes and the Biden crime family.

40:35This guy repeats himself like to the ends of the earth. And yet on the issue of Epstein, which, by the way, was an issue that his campaign predicated so much of their focus on that they garnered so much support from their audience based on. Now he doesn't want to talk about it. So, yeah, I mean, I guess the expression that would come to mind is a hit dog will holler.

40:54Piers Morgan:Well, also, again, I'll repeat, this follows just literally whatever it was three, four weeks ago. Elon Musk in their big public spat suddenly posting, you know, the big bombshell is that Trump's in the Epstein file. So it might be a move, by the way, that that that started a conversation about deporting Elon Musk in case you were wondering whether there was any there there. So, yeah, I mean, clearly that they he hit a mark by or he hit a nerve by saying stuff like that. But but I mean, for this administration to try and brush it under the rug. And Natalie, I do agree with what you said about there being a lot of grifters.

41:30I mean, we've seen Dan Bongino and Kash Patel focus so much energy, so many resources, so much time on this exact issue only for them to come out and say, oh, well, there's, you know, there's absolutely nothing here. But but I would also caution Natalie to not put the onus because I've been seeing this more and more on the right to not put all of the responsibility on Pam Bondi. Pam Bondi is an appendage of Donald Trump. She is not calling the shots. Nobody in this administration is calling the shots. This entire cabinet, this entire White House, exists to serve Donald Trump. They exist to basically be extensions of Trump himself, and no one will ever act independently of him.

42:08And so if accountability is really what you're looking for here, and I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that this is all being done in good faith, then let's not delude ourselves into thinking that Pam Bondi is the final word or that the buck stops with her when the buck always stops with Donald Trump.

42:23Piers Morgan:I'm sure that there's merit to that. Let me come to you, Natalie, because Elon Musk has also suggested that Steve Bannon that you work with, obviously, is in the Epstein files too. A, what can you say about that? I mean, what's the reaction to that, first of all? Well, I'll always let Steve speak for himself, but I can guarantee you Steve is certainly not in the Epstein files. Perhaps Elon needs to both be deported and sued for defamation. But look, I think, you know, in a rare moment, I probably actually agree with Brian. I think that was why the Trump administration wanted to prioritize transparency, at least in their rhetoric, right, from the first days.

43:02They wanted the American people to be able to decide on all of this. And I think that that sort of compounded with what they were trying to do, right, with the new media initiative, bringing in these other voices to try to, I think, go away from just having legacy media outlets dominate certain narratives are sort of setting the parameters for what stories are of interest to the American people. And I think when you talk about transparency, I don't know if the Chinese Communist Party or right now the Trump administration or whoever it may be, deep state, take your pick, is engaging in more of a cover-up when it comes to whether it's the Epstein files or the origins of COVID, respectively.

43:36I think that's a rather asinine point. But to link it all back to what you were saying, Piers, I think labeling all these things at the offset, at the onset rather, a conspiracy theory compounding with, I think, a lot of sort of the censorship apparatus that we saw spring up under Joe Biden. You sort of get that same reaction to what people had when President Trump was sitting in his cabinet meeting and saying, why are people interested in this? Why are people looking at that? It just makes people double down. So even if you want to be pragmatic, respectfully, Destiny, saying that there's no evidence, I think you can agree that there is at least one piece of evidence that may intimate that COVID-19 developed in the Wuhan Institute of Virology under Shijang Lee.

44:18I just think these draconian statements make people not more likely to sort of entertain the other side of the fence, but it makes people think that there actually are conspiracies going on to cover up information.

44:29Piers Morgan:Yeah, I would agree. And Destiny, I'm going to take you off on... Just to be clear, just to be clear. Hang on, Destiny, I'm going to ask you a question. She said in 2020... Destiny, I'm going to ask you a question. This was under Biden? I'm pretty sure that was under Trump. So if you want to blame anybody for the censorship, it would have been Trump. Let me ask you a question, Destiny. Destiny, I want to ask you a question. So a woman called Kylie Jane Kramer posted on X. I've been trying to wrap my head around how the flooding in Texas became so devastating so quickly. Why not evacuate? Then I saw this.

44:54Piers Morgan:Lieutenant Governor Dan Patrick said the Guadaloupe River rose 26 feet in just 46 minutes around 4 a.m. That doesn't even seem natural. To which you posted, you reposted this, and you put your own words. I heard God killed those kids because they were using NordVPN, promo code Destiny, to get around the Texas porn ban. On reflection, do you think that was a grotesquely tasteless thing to be posting? Absolutely not. The hand wringing here? Oh, my God, stop. If you want to talk about dead children, then you should talk about the residents of Care County who rejected using ARPA funds to build the very siren system that Ted Cruz was over here virtue signaling about now that the kids are dead Last I checked the siren system isn't bringing anybody back to life Okay, the very same system that they could have built for the better part of the last decade They didn't want to touch those ARPA funds because they thought that if they did Biden would go and steal their homes Which is the exact same lie that was told in North Carolina when people were rejecting FEMA funds because they thought that if the the government was giving the money for the houses, they'd steal it.

46:02If you wanna talk about grotesque and ghoulish things that are being said - It's what you put online, I agree with you. It's what you put online, it is grotesque. It's disgusting, but I guess that's what you do. How long have people like you called us that if we spend less money in Ukraine, you guys are gonna spend more money investing in things like infrastructure in the United States? Where is that money going? We just had another massive debt increase, another massive debt increase for more tax cuts, for wealthy people. Congratulations. Thank you so much. All right, let me get a bit. How's that deficit doing?

46:34Don't talk over each other. How's that deficit doing? Is it going up or down? Don't talk over each other.

46:38Piers Morgan:But just to be clear, Destiny, you don't... There are no answers. Just to be clear. Just to be clear, Destiny... I'm going to talk... Please stop talking. I'm not going to sit here and argue about jokes when these guys are spreading lies... You don't joke when children are dead, dude. ...that are leading to the actual destruction of these... Oh, except you guys do when it happens in L.A., when it's about the wildfires. I don't. I'm not a sick, vile person like you. Go look at my ex account. Just the rest of your party is? Just the rest of your party is? Don't talk over each other because we can't hear you.

47:01All right.

47:01Piers Morgan:Yeah. Okay. All right. But Destiny, just to be clear, you don't regret posting, I heard God kill those kids because they were using NordVPN to get around the Texas form ban. Well, you allow the very same misinformation to spread on this program that leads to people not putting up siren systems, okay, because they think that Biden is going to go steal their homes. That wasn't my question. I think it is absolutely insane. I think it's insane that you want to go and hand-ring liberals over jokes that are not even half as crazy as some of the things these conservatives say. Okay, but just to be clear, you don't regret doing it.

47:33There's no tweet like that out there. Absolutely not.

47:36Piers Morgan:Just to be clear, you don't regret posting it. No, absolutely not. Ben Ferguson. Here's a couple of things here that I think there's proper information that should get out there. This is an area that I go to often. It's an area that I've taken my kids dozens and dozens of times. It's a very small rural community. When it rains there, there's always flooding because there's a lot of rock in the ground and the water doesn't absorb in the ground. So you have flash floodings that happen very quickly. I've been there when this happens. This was a once in a lifetime 100 year flood. If you want to know about the funding for the system, it's an extremely small community.

48:10And the price tag for it is very, very big compared to the tax base that they have in this small community. It is not because of the Matt Boone stuff this guy is talking about. That is not why the community decided six years ago to not do it, even though they wanted to. It was a cost issue. What's going to happen now is you're going to have state funds and federal funds, and that system will happen. But go back to this once-in-a-lifetime flood that took place. No one could have prepared or thought this was going to happen. People bought homes on a river where there was constant flooding, where they're built high enough up that flooding has never gotten there before in the history of their lifetime.

48:49So this is a tragedy that took place. And by the way, this is personal because I know people who lost children. There are funerals that are taking place in Houston. Can I just finish talking about a funeral for a second? Let him finish, Destiny. So you're saying there are no citizens saying that they don't want to use the American Rescue Plan funds. They didn't want to use their money because they thought Biden would take their homes. I'm going to go back to what I said. That transcript doesn't exist? Can you let Ben finish given he was talking about the funerals of dead children? Please let him finish what he was saying.

49:23He doesn't care. As long as he doesn't give a fuck about the dead kids. You know what, Destiny? You don't give a fuck about the dead kids, do you? Admit it, I do. Because you thought it was funny. You thought it was funny.

49:33Piers Morgan:You thought it was funny to go on X and talk about, I heard God killed those kids because they weren't using a Nord VPN to get around the Texas porn ban. That is disgusting. You're the one using dead children in a grotesque manner. Jokes on Twitter don't kill people. Let me just lay that down for the record. Just to be clear, let me lay it down as well. How many people did my joke kill? No, it's just disgustingly peaceful. You're a sick man. And then how many kids died because there's no siren system? Because people like this guy over here made up the lie that Biden was going to steal your homes if you accept American Rescue Plan.

50:08If you accept American Rescue Plan money. Exactly. I never made that up. I would like to hear Ben. finish the story he was telling us

50:17Piers Morgan:where he was talking about the funerals of dead children. Let him finish that, please. What do you mean? I didn't have the funerals? Can we mute him? Rather than you talking about why you were right to crack a sick joke. Ben. Okay. I go back to the point here. This flood did not ask if you were a liberal or conservative, rich or poor, black or white or anything else in between. People lost their lives and many people lost their lives trying to save kids. in an unprecedented flood. If we could go back, I'm sure this community would have said, we'll figure out a way to have the money. You're dealing with an area that has a lot of volunteer, first responders and firefighters.

50:56Can I finish, please? Like maybe you'll learn something and not be such a tool. You just lie. You just lie. You don't live there. You don't know. You've never been there. I've been there. I've talked to you. You don't know anybody that died in this flood. You're a POS. That's who you are. I would like to finish my point, Piers. Finish it, Ben. Thank you. There are people that died in this flood helping try to save the lives of others. There are elderly that died. I know people that lost children in this flood. They would love to go back and have a different warning system. By the way, we don't know if the warning system would have changed anything at all.

51:30The warnings came out early. Unfortunately, there's spotty cell phone there. Everyone's talked about this. I'm sure there's people in the community that wish they would have maybe done something different in the past. Hindsight's 20-20. But to say that the community decided not to do this because of some insane theory you've come up with, which is not true or based in fact. It was based on a small rural community with not a lot of tax base and a very expensive price tag for something. And for you to sit here and to somehow decide that this is a place to say something so sick. I'm assuming you don't have kids.

52:04I have six-year-old and eight-year-old kids. If you talk to parents that are planning their child's funerals that are happening tomorrow and the next day here in Houston, I think you would have a little bit of a soul and a heart for them. But instead, you're out here putting this crap out there. And it's really sad. I hope you get help.

52:20Piers Morgan:Let me bring in Brian. Brian, I want to talk just about a wider point connected to what Destiny posted, for which he shows no regret at all, which is entirely his choice, but I can say my feelings, which I have. A former appointee to a Houston city board said that Camp Mystic, where most of these poor young girls were at the time, was white-only conservative and Christian, said Sade Perkins, a former member of the Houston Food Insecurity Board, said in a TikTok video, so take a look. I know I'm probably going to get cancelled for this, but Camp Mystic is a whites-only girls' Christian camp. They don't even have a token Asian.

53:05They don't have a token black person. If this were a group of Hispanic girls out there, this would not be getting this type of coverage that they're getting. No one would give a f***. And all these white people, the parents of these little girls, would be saying things like they need to be deported.

53:20Piers Morgan:A, I think that's completely untrue, what she said. B, it's completely disgusting to say that in the aftermath of this when these poor girls, many of them are still missing, presumed dead. But then there was a paediatrician called Dr Christina B. Probst who's been fired after posting on social media. She's a paediatrician, this woman. May all visitors, children, non-MAGA voters and pets be safe and dry. Kerr County MAGA voted to get FEMA. They deny climate change. May they get what they voted for. Bless their hearts. And my question, Brian, putting that together with what Destiny posted, which, again, for the record, I thought was disgusting, Destiny.

53:59Piers Morgan:I've told you. You can defend it as much as you like, but it was just a sick, awful thing to post. And if you had any humanity about you, you would delete it. But that's entirely your decision. But, Brian, I've seen this on the other side too. I've seen this during the Biden administration when terrible things happened, that there's a race for people to get political, to play a race card or play this card or play that card, or just show a shocking inhumanity. And it's the very worst of society when that happens. What do we do about this? I think it's fueled by social media. People wouldn't be able to get the audience for this kind of thing without TikTok, without Facebook, without X and so on.

54:40Piers Morgan:But it's a sick thing that this goes on when these terrible tragedies happen. Look, I obviously can't speak for what some random person on the internet tweeted about Camp Mystic. All I can say is, look, I try to have some sense of the fact that there are as many Republicans in California as there are in Texas, and there are as many Democrats in Texas as there are in major big blue bastions. And so I try to, you know, focus on that and recognize that a lot of these people are, you know, a lot of these people are fighting against the same system that I would be fighting against. And I wouldn't, you know, obviously not attack folks in Texas.

55:23But I would point out that, you know, Ben said that, Ben said that these storms aren't partisan and that we have to try. I can't remember what Ben said, but the reality is that while the wildfires were raging in California, Ben and Ted had a podcast where they just attacked Governor Newsom and Karen Bass. That was while the fires were still raging. And so spare us the grandstanding and the virtue signaling about how this stuff It doesn't get partisan. That was, this was, this was, here's Ted Cruz's tweet. Right now, everyone is horrified watching the LA wildfires. In today's episode of Verdict, we break down the catastrophic policy decisions made by Gavin Newsom and LA mayor Karen Bass.

56:09While the wildfires were still raging in Los Angeles, while I was standing on my roof in LA, spraying down my house with a hose to make sure that my house wouldn't set on fire when the fire was down the street within one mile of my house. Did you listen to the show? And so, and so Ted Cruz decided to come out and make his entire episode, which by the way, there is not. So I'll tell you what we said, because I was on that show. Excuse me, let it finish. You're crying so much about people in the room. Let it finish. I know. Ben is like arguing for like, for destiny. You said we did a show. You're putting words in our mouth of something we didn't say.

56:41I read the tweet verbatim. Did you listen to the show? No. Did you read the book? Did you watch the Lifetime movie? Did you see the documentary? What we did was we talked about the decisions that were made. in favor of... Well, let Ben say what he thinks he said.

56:56Piers Morgan:Let's listen to that. I'll redo the show in a very quick form. What we talked about were the decisions that were made with underbrush not being cleared out and the massive warnings that were coming. We also talked about what the fire chief said about those warnings. We talked about the lack of water pressure. We talked about them cleaning up some of the holding tanks. We talked about also the fact that there were certain things that were done to save fish over having the ability to fight these types of fires and everything that went into it. We talked about the decisions that were made that then made for a poor response that made you have to be on your roof, as you described it, spraying down because there wasn't adequate decisions that were made with those winds that came through with the underbrush.

57:36You think the reason that I was on my roof was because while the Santa Ana winds were ripping through LA at 100 miles per hour and 50 ,000 acres of LA were burning, that some bogus fucking story about the smelt, about Delta smelt is why LA was burning. You're a joke, bro. You have no idea what you are talking about. You have no idea what you're talking about. I'm quoting the people in your government in California. There is no, Ben, there is no amount of water pressure in the world through these hydrants that are going to be able to put out 50 ,000 acres of fire. Yes, you did. You're talking about smelt and you're talking about no water pressure.

58:13I didn't say that. But let me, let me, let me, let me, let me grant you. You know this. You lose water pressure. That's not what I said, by the way. Let me grant you the larger point, though. And I think the point that you're trying to make, I'll grant you this even though you don't deserve it and you're just going to spew a bunch of bullshit about smelt and water pressure. Please don't give me any charity, okay, brother? But let me grant you the larger point and say that there are still things that people could do. And I'm not here to argue that California did a perfect job or does a perfect job with regards to how they manage all of this stuff.

58:42But to that point, then, do you think it's maybe a little stupid that Trump would fire 10 % of NOAA's workforce, which is about 1 ,300 staffers and researchers. Do you think it's a good idea then that Trump called for reducing NOAA's workforce by a further 17%, which would be another 2 ,000 staffers and researchers? Do you think it's a good idea that Trump slashed 20 % of FEMA's workforce? Do you think it's a smart idea to phase out FEMA completely? Do you think it's a smart idea that 25 % of NWS's stations lack a meteorologist? All this stuff is planned. So let's go back to the basics here. If you're asking about the size of government and the president making a decision to reduce the size of government when it makes sense, I have no issue with that.

59:27By the way, the staffing and the lies that were put out by many on the left and the media was that there was understaffing when it came to the warnings that were coming out from the National Weather Service. That was a lie. They were staffed above normal staffing levels. They held people over the day before and the night of the storm in Texas. They had double the staff on staff when the storms were hitting. There's a timeline of all the texts that were going out and the warnings that were going out. And so you're acting as if Donald Trump caused a problem with the flood and the response to it in the warning system, which is a lie.

1:00:03When you have double the staff, which is the protocol, by the way, under Obama, under Biden, and under George Bush. So this is nonpartisan and everyone showed up for work and people were held over. You're now just trying to score political points on the lives of dead children for political reasons.

1:00:22Piers Morgan:I said, let me bring in Natalie because she should be waiting patiently. Natalie, when I read out what Destiny posted there, what was your feeling about that? Well, I think that's probably the textbook definition of what it means to be a grifter, trying to profit off of dead children by pumping NordVPN and your promo code. It's reprehensible. Just to be clear, that's not my promo code. You're an atheist. You don't believe in God. You certainly don't believe in traditional marriage. So I would expect nothing less that you would double down and defend it. Blows my mind. I mean, I agree comedy is important, but I don't think, no offense, maybe shouldn't be a stand-up comedian if you want to start your career by posting about dead children.

1:01:07It's really not all that funny. And it really wasn't even a joke. You were trying to profit off of it. So I think that's sort of a compounding evilness to what you did. What do we do, Natalie? So real quick, real quick, for compounding evilness, just so I could read this because it's entered into the record. Okay. I'm just curious if Ben wants to say, is this quote fake? OK, so there's hundreds of these quotes. All right. At a county meeting, OK, where the citizens are giving feedback on whether or not they should use the American Rescue Plan funds. All right. Citizen Mr. R says there is a there's not just a lack of transparency, but the Biden administration is pulling the wool over our eyes.

1:01:40If we see what's actually written, we make a clear decision. This is wrong. Texas has been going in the right direction. I moved from Washington state a year ago. Washington is just falling lockstep with whatever this admin wants to do. and we're watching with clarity the damage. As far as COVID and the recovery money, the majority of the damage has been caused by the government. We're doing well. I'm a retired firefighter, EMS, I love law enforcement. Do no harm is going by the wayside. Let me finish one more sentence. Do no harm is going by the wayside from, we're all familiar with that and it's heartfelt, but it's going by the wayside.

1:02:07For now, what would be money that would go against everything that we believe? Whatever good is in it, I don't want it. Are you telling me that that comment and the hundreds of others like it are fake? Can you give me a yes or no before you ramble about whatever irrelevant stuff? Are those comments fake? I'm gonna go back to what I want to say you said what you said I'm gonna say it Number one I'm answering the damn question dude Like just chill for a second Drink whatever hemp juice or that is Okay Keep going Alright so number one That's one person Number two If you weren't so dumb If you weren't so dumb If you weren't Good you found two If you weren't so dumb Go google the size You think they don't exist?

1:02:47Go Google the size of the Comfort Texas City Hall. You can't fit hundreds of people in any meeting there, you moron. You found one, you act like there's thousands that showed up. They did not show up and say that on the record. Are there people that sent things on the internet? There are some. But if you look at how small the community is. If you see a room that can only fit 10 people, did you know that 100 people can fit in that room of 10 go in and 10 leave? I do. Are we looking again again if you understood the size of the town which you don't because you don't care because you're literally trying to make money off the dead people You're the one who's getting kids killed and I can't wait for the next once in a lifetime disaster in Texas The next time the power grid freezes the next time another flood happens and dipshoots like you were up here saying Could we have ever seen it coming?

1:03:35But hey you know what? At least Marjorie Taylor Greene is out here proposing legislation to stop the Jews from putting clouds in the sky So thank God we have you guys working hard on the problem, okay, to start the weather modification program from Bill Gates. Thank God, thank you. You stay up till 3 a.m. and watch the internet? Thank you, God.

1:03:50Piers Morgan:Thank you, God. Okay, Brian, let's just talk on a bigger picture about, because it's interesting to me, the whole Epstein thing, for example, I think has been fueled, the sequence of events, by what Elon Musk put on X. And he's now creating a third party. he says he is, the America Party. It's never worked before, but we've never had somebody with his money or social media firepower to drive it. So I don't think it should be dismissed out of hand. How dangerous an enemy can Elon Musk turn out to be for Donald Trump? If, for example, in the midterms, he decides to aggressively support, you know, anti-Trump candidates, for example, and is successful in doing that, and get some resonance for this party, this third party, and then that moves forward with some momentum to a general election.

1:04:46Piers Morgan:I mean, you know, how big could this get? What's your feeling about the Musk-Trump meltdown? I think it could go both ways. You could make the argument that the reason Trump is president right now is because Elon Musk gave him$300 million and campaigned relentlessly in Pennsylvania, for example. So obviously there is a lot of weight that can be given to a candidate by virtue of endless funds. Elon has that. On the flip side, look, I mean, he put forward this threat that he was going to make sure that whoever voted for the big, beautiful bill was primaried. They all voted for it, except for Thomas Massey and, you know, Tom Tillis.

1:05:26And so they were not going to vote for it anyway. I'm sure that they're... I'm sure that Elon's tweet... And Rand Paul. Had... And Rand Paul, Elon's tweet had no bearing on any of those three. And so you couldn't also make the argument at the same time that that that his that his influence is waning in the Republican Party. I think what's what's the broader picture, though, is that, you know, this is this is a Elon is somebody who has, you know, Elon himself is no white knight here, especially as relates to Democrats. This is somebody who, you know, predicate so much of his focus on eliminating waste, fraud, abuse, which, by the way, so do the Republicans.

1:06:03But everyone is full of shit here. Elon had carte blanche, full reign of government with Doge. And instead of going after the biggest agency in government, which has failed seven audits, which is the Pentagon, he goes after USAID, which is one half of one percent of the budget and affords us soft power without firing a single bullet across the world. He goes after the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, which which saved, you know, billions of dollars for 200 million consumers. That is a fraction of the budget. He goes after the EPA, the NLRB, the Department of Labor, the Department of Transportation.

1:06:35Every single agency that had enforcement or fines levied against him are the ones that he focused on. And instead, the Pentagon gets a raise to a trillion dollars. So spare us on the grandstanding about reigning in a deficit, reigning in the federal deficit. But the same goes for this Republican Party. All of these people, House Freedom Caucus included, predicated so much of their identity on this idea that they were going to that we have to stop this existential threat that is that is overspending and and saddling our kids and future generations with all of this interest that we're not going to be able to pay off.

1:07:13All these motherfuckers voted for it. All of these people are completely full of shit. They string their people along just like they did with the Epstein situation. They strung all their supporters along with these promises that they're going to be the fiscal responsive, that they're going to be the fiscal conservatives, that they're going to be the adults in the room. They get into office. They explode the deficit because the only priority they have, not Epstein, not lowering costs, not adding jobs, none of that stuff. It is giving themselves a tax cut. That's the only longstanding principle they have.

1:07:43It's all they did in 2017. It's all they're doing right now. Everything else is window dressing to con their supporters, their marks into thinking that they're going to help them. All right. Let me say this about him real quick, Elon Musk, and how this could be an issue. You go back and you look at guys like Jesse Ventura, you go back and you look at Schwarzenegger, you go back and you look at Ross Perot. There is a history that when certain individuals see an opportunity and a third party comes about, that you can be a disruptor. If Elon Musk just wants to be a disruptor in the midterm elections, there's no doubt he can pull it off.

1:08:20If he's smart about where he plays. If he tries to play nationwide, I think that would fall apart. But look, there's a tight majority in the House, a tight majority in the Senate. The Senate is leaning more towards the Democrats in the upcoming midterm election. It favors them in the election map and who's up. Yeah, I think Elon Musk, if he wanted to go in there and be a disruptor to Donald Trump, he certainly has the money to do it. And it's not just money.

1:08:43Piers Morgan:It's not just money. It's influence. He also has 200 million followers on his own social media platform. Sure. And I think that played a big part in how Trump won. I think he got a lot of people to, on a daily basis, Elon Musk was all in on Trump. Yeah, but at the end of the day, I think Elon Musk is a really smart guy. I've spent time with him, interviewed him. I think he's probably going to look at this and say, hey, I want to rein in some of these things. I want you to hold true the Republican Party to what you claimed you were going to do, going back to the point that was just made a moment ago by the guests.

1:09:17He wants to make sure that the people that he helped get this power continue to do the right thing more often than they go and do other things. And so this is that shot across the bow. I understand why he's doing it. It does concern me that you end up blowing up the entire thing and the progress you've made. We'll have to see how it plays out.

1:09:36Piers Morgan:Destiny, is there anything intrinsically wrong in the concept of a third party? Would it help break the kind of, you know, very long running intransigent nature of the American political system. I mean, with most people, the math problem is that if you create a third party, all you're doing is siphoning votes off from another party that you're more likely to agree with. But Elon might have a special advantage because in 10 or 15 years, it's projected that 50 to 100 ,000 of his children could vote for him in an election. So maybe that'll swing things a different way, you know. That's to see. That is a funny joke.

1:10:08Piers Morgan:Destiny. You've got it in you. Natalie. The Republicans have it their way. If all those kids are in Texas, who knows how many will be gone to natural disasters that could have never been prevented or screened for or anything else. So there you go. I'll make it offensive for you. You know what I felt about the debate part of that was what Senator Cruz told me I thought was a good way of describing it. He said, look, actually, probably the big problem here, the only thing that might have made any difference is if more people had been able to heed an alarm faster, it might have saved some lives because it happened so fast and was so devastating.

1:10:43Piers Morgan:And the truth is, It's in an area of Apache cell phone. A lot of people wouldn't have got the messages. And had they had a siren system, it might have saved some lies. I imagine they will now all get siren systems. Pierce, can I ask you a question on that point? And that is, look, notwithstanding the fact that Republicans have spent so much money handing themselves a tax cut, but ICE now has a bigger budget than the IDF, than Brazil's military, than Netherlands' military, than Italy's military. If ICE was a military unto itself, it would have the 16th biggest budget in the world. And so think about all of the things that we can do in, I mean, you want to talk about America first?

1:11:24Think about all the things we could do in this country. Like, I don't know, giving a warning system to these folks in rural Texas, for example, who could really benefit from that. But I don't think, yeah, but I don't think they're missing. But Brian, hang on, hang on, hang on, hang on. Let me finish my sentence. Instead of fucking brown people out of their homes.

1:11:39Piers Morgan:I don't think they're mutually exclusive. A country like the United States of America is still the number one superpower in the world, right? The idea you can't do two things at once or ten things at once or a hundred things at once is nuts. Of course, I... Excuse me. Why is Ben saying that's insane? The Republicans have spent the last five years telling us that. You can't spend money in Ukraine. You have to spend it here. You can't spend money on food stamps. You have to spend it on your American people. If you understood what we thought about Ukraine, you would understand what the point is. When it comes to cutting programs, you guys are okay with cutting some programs, but you never want to spend any money on anything else.

1:12:15Will you admit that the budget is out of control and that Trump did absolutely nothing? Will you admit that? Will you admit that? That the budget is out of control and Trump did that he failed completely on the Big Beautiful Bill? Piers, how long have you and I been doing TV together? A long time. How many times have I complained about government spending? I know. It's not government spending, it's Donald Trump. Your party has a moral failing that they're allocating budget appropriately. You're talking about trying to find kids in Texas. Well, you've got horses galloping across MacArthur Park.

1:12:46Paid for by the federal government, Donald Trump's federal government. Well, you meant that they failed in controlling the budget. I'm in favor of getting out 20 million illegal immigrants. Did they fail at controlling the budget? Did they fail at controlling the budget? We wouldn't have to spend all that damn money. We wouldn't have to spend all that money if you guys were securing the border. Do you know the truth?

1:13:04Piers Morgan:Do you know the truth? Do you know the truth from across the pond, if I may? raise a hand, is I think the debt was, in 1980, was a trillion dollars, and now it's heading towards$40 trillion. And in that time, last time I checked, in that time, there were a lot of Democrat presidents and a lot of Republican presidents. So it may just be, Destiny, this is a problem which both parties... Excuse me? Bingo. Which parties... Wait, wait. Which parties have contributed to? Who had the last budget surplus? It's got to be Trump. Trump's been president for 50 years. You didn't even know how time worked earlier.

1:13:41It's 50 years of Donald Trump being president. It's all his fault.

1:13:44Piers Morgan:All right, I didn't hear a lot of anything. I want to give the last... Bill Clinton. It was Bill Clinton. The answer is Bill Clinton for anybody listening at home, OK? Enough. I want to give the last word to Natalie. He's been waiting very patiently. Natalie, last word to you about this issue of Elon, Trump, the deficit, where this all goes, another party. Your quick thoughts. Well, Elon failed at doge, not just the$2 trillion to$1 trillion to$9 billion. There should have been criminal referrals and indictments for all of the scams and schemes that they were talking about, and there wasn't one person, maybe one random USAID contractor sort of on a separate path.

1:14:20Good luck if he wants to start a party with, what, I think a foreign-born COO of it. He might be getting deported imminently, so it'll be tough running the America Party from South Africa.

1:14:32Piers Morgan:OK, on that note, we will leave it. I'm going to go and have my ears treated by an emergency medic. But thank you all very much. I appreciate it. Thanks. Thanks, Pierce. Cozy season is ahead and you'll be spending way more time inside. Is your home ready? Don't worry. With Wayfair, you can upgrade your space without breaking the bank. Score up to 70 % off during their Labor Day clearance on furniture, area rugs, mattresses, and more. Plus, surprise flash deals you can't miss. Whether it's one room or the whole house, Wayfair has pieces for every style and budget. Shop Wayfair's Labour Day clearance now through September 7th at Wayfair.com.

1:15:11Wayfair, every style, every home.

1:15:13Piers Morgan:What drew me on the phone now is Mark Epstein, Jeffrey Epstein's brother. Mark, good to have you back on Uncensored. Thank you. Good to be here. If I could, we spoke about a year ago. If I could just ask you, first of all, your reaction to the Trump administration effectively saying it's now shutting down any ongoing investigation into the Epstein files, as they put it. What is your reaction to that? Well, you know, I've never really been that much involved with or cared about the Epstein files as far as the charges against them. I had nothing to do with that. I wasn't part of it. As I explained last time, my concern is the fact that he was most likely killed in prison.

1:15:55That's what I'm concerned about. And the fact that they're trying to hide that or trying to shield that and trying to put it off as a suicide where everything else points against suicide. That's what I'm concerned about. There's been a lot of every time they say something or do something like release this video, they're just digging themselves deeper into the hole. It seems like the lies are closing in on them.

1:16:18Piers Morgan:So explain to the viewers exactly why you believe your brother didn't take his own life and somebody else took it. OK, well, first of all, when I first heard that he was dead from the parent's suicide, I had no reason to doubt it. I figured, well, you know, he's in prison, what he was facing. You know, he didn't have children. A lot of parents are gone. I figured, OK, if he decided to take himself out, I would just respect that. But then, you know, we did the autopsy the next day and the city pathologist who did the autopsy with Dr. Barton there, they both came out of the autopsy room, and they said that they couldn't call it a suicide because it looked too much like a homicide.

1:16:58That wasn't my suggestion. That was them, the professionals. And then you get all the things that went wrong in the prison, you know, the cameras weren't working on the maximum security tier, the guards weren't checking. There's just a lot of things that went wrong in the prison. And then Jeffrey was trying to appeal his bail decision. And he had a hearing coming up, and it would have been an extremely large bail that he was offering. And that hearing was coming up soon. Now, I know Jeffrey, and I thought that if he had a chance of getting bail, he would wait to commit suicide to see if bail was denied.

1:17:38It would make it more plausible that he killed himself. But why would he kill himself literally days before he had a chance of getting bailed? That doesn't make any sense. That's another thing. And then when you hear the statements that come out, like when Bill Barr first said he saw the videotape and he saw that nobody went in or out of the tier because the camera outside of the tier was working, he said no one went in or out of the tier. That convinced him it was a suicide. Well, that was a blatantly naive statement from the top war enforcement official of the United States, because there were 12, 11 or 12 other prisoners on that tier that could have killed somebody on the tier.

1:18:15And also, conversely, to think somebody could get to that door, go inside, kill somebody, and leave through that door completely undetected is just asinine, because there's six levels of security before you get to that door. So that, if he was killed, it wasn't by somebody going into the tier and coming out of the tier. It was somebody already on the tier, or he was killed when they locked up the tier at 10 o 'clock at night or 10.30 at night the night before.

1:18:40Piers Morgan:Let me just remind viewers, we had this conversation a year ago, but just for the record, do you believe that your brother was guilty of very serious sex crimes? The only thing I know he was guilty of is that he was with girls that were too young. All the other crimes and accusations, I have no clue. I wasn't involved. I wasn't there. I hadn't seen Jeffrey for a number of years before his death. And we were always in communication via phone or email. But we lived two separate worlds. So I had no idea what he was doing. So that's the only thing I could say. I know he was guilty of. The other stuff is not my business.

1:19:22I wasn't involved. I don't know what the charges are. So I'm only concerned with the circumstances of his.

1:19:28Piers Morgan:Yes. And had you been in contact with him when he was in prison? When he was in prison, no. The last contact I had with him was the night before he got arrested. He was in Paris. He called me from Paris that night, just a normal brotherly call, you know, check up on each other. And then the next day he flew home to Teterboro Airport and he was arrested at the airport. His attorneys called me and told me he was arrested. the last conversation I had with Jeff was the night before he was here. He was obviously convicted of a pedophile crime many years previously. Did he ever... He was convicted of prostitution or involving prostitution or something.

1:20:12That was in Florida in 2006 or something.

1:20:14Piers Morgan:With an underage girl, though? Yeah, I believe so, yeah. Yeah, so that's a crime. I mean, that made him a pedophile. Yeah, he spent the year in jail for that, yeah. So I guess my question is, as his brother, after that, did you have any discussions about that criminal offence that he was found guilty of? I told him to make sure there's any in the future with girls that are not underage. What seems very clear is that he ignored that advice and carried on having all these girls, many of whom... Wait, I've got to stop you there. I don't know about that because from what I understand, what he was being charged with more recently was stuff that took place back then.

1:20:59I haven't heard of charges since that 2006 or 2008, whatever he got out. I haven't heard of charges that he was with underage girls after that. I haven't heard that. Maybe he was, but I didn't hear charges about that. The charges I was aware of took place back then. And I know part of his defence was going to be that when he made that deal back in 2006, he had a non-prosecution agreement with the government after that. So it seemed like they were trying to prosecute him for things that he was supposed to have been safe from. So, like I said, I don't know if there's charges that he was with underage girls after 2006, that episode.

1:21:42Piers Morgan:But obviously you will know the same things that we've all read about your brother, which is that he had this island. He took a lot of underage girls there. A lot of them have made very serious allegations about being raped and sexually assaulted and abused. And the other rich, powerful people, men, were also involved, none of whom have been brought to justice. What do you feel about that? Well, I think if that was the case, that we would have heard about some of these men. Why aren't these, quote, victims, why aren't they naming names? Well, the suggestion is... The suggestion is, Marl, there's been a big cover-up to prevent those names being released.

1:22:29Well, but, you know, people know who these victims are. The attorneys know who these victims are. They could come out and say it.

1:22:38Piers Morgan:I mean, the Trump administration now says case closed. Do you think it should be closed, or should there be further investigation to establish exactly who else may have been involved? Well, again, I'm not concerned about that, to be honest with you. I mean, if wrongdoing was done, people should be punished, but I don't know that wrongdoing's been done. I know that I'm concerned about my brother's likely murder. The Trump administration is also making it very clear that from all their investigations, they believe it is indisputable and 100 % certain that your brother took his own life. Well, yeah, because who are they protecting?

1:23:23Look, when Bill Barr made the statement about, you know, it was a suicide because no one went in or out, when Kash Patel makes a statement saying that, You know a suicide when you see it. My question to him was, how many suicides has he seen? Okay, where you take Dr. Roman and Dr. Biden, who did the actual autopsy, and they came out of the autopsy, and they said this looks more like a homicide than a suicide. Then how does the Trump administration say overrule that? Dr. Biden has done about 500 autopsies on prison suicides over the last 50 years. You know, there's very few people with that kind of experience.

1:24:00And he's saying that to him, this was not a suicide. It's a homicide. So, yeah, anyone in the Trump administration could say, I don't think so. But what's their backing? Like, like Cash Patel said, you know, a suicide when you see it, how many suicides has he seen? Is he a forensic pathologist? Is he a doctor? You know, it's a laughable matter that he can come out social. Where months ago he was saying that it wasn't a suicide. What is your message, Mark, to President Trump? Let me finish. You got Bundy, you got Patel, you got Barr. All of these people work for Trump. OK, so if they're covering up for somebody, who do you think they might be covering up for?

1:24:49Piers Morgan:So you think they're covering up for President Trump? Everybody is looking at little pieces of this and coming up with kind of theories. But people really take the time, because there's a lot of facts, there's a lot of information. People take the time and really investigate this thoroughly all come to the pretty much conclusion that maybe Trump was behind this. Wow. Maybe Jeff was killed to quiet him. You think President Trump has something to do with Epstein, your brother, being killed? I wouldn't write that off. Because if you look at all of the evidence we have and all of the facts, not opinions, and all of the facts, that wouldn't be something I would dismiss.

1:25:37Piers Morgan:I mean, that's an extraordinary thing to say, but there is zero evidence that Donald Trump had anything to do with your brother's death. Well, somebody did. Again, if you look at the... It sort of may be circumstantial, But if you look at all the people trying to make it look like a suicide, look, they just released a video of the door, you know, to the tear. And they're trying to make people think that that was the door to the cell, showing that nobody went in or out of the cell. The video that was recently released was a door to the tear, the one that Bill Barr referred to. Now, here's an interesting fact.

1:26:11I asked years ago for the videotape from that very camera from 10 o 'clock at night to the night before until noon the morning that he was found. Because that would show who the last people on the tier were when they left and locked up the tier. And it would also show the condition and the circumstances when they took his body off of the tier to the infirmary. I also want to see the video from the infirmary. I haven't been able to get anything. I was initially told that I couldn't get it because it was an active investigation, so I couldn't get access to it. After the investigation was over, I asked again.

1:26:51And I have in writing a letter from the door to the tier, the footage that Bill Barr referred to. They told me the cameras that were working don't show that area. And then a few days ago, they released the footage of that very area and the very camera I was referring to. So first I couldn't get it because it was an investigation. And then they were telling me it doesn't exist. And now it shows up. They release it. So it's just too much. You know, if this was purely a suicide, if this was really a suicide, this would be easy to say that this was a suicide. They wouldn't have to go through all this machinations or this cover-up.

1:27:37and all this, frankly, bullshit.

1:27:39Piers Morgan:So what is your message, finally, Mark? What is your message to President Trump? I don't have a message to him. Do you want him to reopen the investigation into how your brother died? My message would be, let me give you a list of questions that we can get people to answer under oath, and then we can maybe come to some conclusion. OK, Mark Epstein, thank you very much indeed for joining me. You're welcome. Bye.

1:28:34Piers Morgan:be more critical and we couldn't do it without you.

1:28:41Cozy season is ahead and you'll be spending way more time inside. Is your home ready? Don't worry. With Wayfair, you can upgrade your space without breaking the bank. Score up to 70 % off during their Labor Day clearance on furniture, area rugs, mattresses, and more. Plus, surprise flash deals you can't miss. Whether it's one room or the whole house, Wayfair has pieces for every style and budget. Shop Wayfair's Labor Day clearance now through September 7th at Wayfair.com. Wayfair, every style, every home.