“So Used To LYING!” AIPAC vs Thomas Massie + San Diego Mosque Attack With Mehdi Hasan

21:56And instead of being 100 percent behind President Trump's agenda, as the voters of Kentucky's fourth congressional district have now shown that they want their representative to be, he decided that he wanted to fight President Trump. He has that right. Marjorie Taylor Greene voted for the big, beautiful belt. Marjorie Taylor Greene. I think it helps Thomas Massey to argue, oh, Israel's against me, instead of pointing out the truth, which is he wasn't supportive enough of President Trump's agenda for the people of Kentucky's congressional district. Marjorie Taylor Greene voted for the big beautiful bill.

22:43She was on Trump's side with every domestic policy issue that you just said Massey impeded. her blasphemy was the same as Trump is more popular and Marjorie, did you listen to me? I know you don't want this point out, I know you don't want this point out but no, because it's bullshit this whole narrative is bullshit this is all about anger at Massey because he voted against the big beautiful bill, he was at least as angry at Marjorie Taylor Greene even though she voted for the big beautiful bill Marjorie Taylor Greene it's not just Israel then why does every US politician make sure Well, actually, hang on, hang on, hang on.

23:19Don't talk over each other.

23:20Piers Morgan:Hang on one sec. Hang on one sec. Clay, Clay, on that last point, on that last point, I would take issue with that because there is some really shocking polling about Israel in America, which is that nearly two-thirds of Americans now have a negative view of Israel. So they're not disengaged in the way that you think. That doesn't mean that Israel is the most important issue in America. I didn't say the most important issue. I don't think Israel is in the top ten most important issues. No, but it's the most important issue. Okay, but the most important issue... Hang on a second, Buckley. I will come to all of you.

23:54Piers Morgan:The most important issue in America, according to polling, is cost of living. And there is a direct line between cost of living and Israel. Because if you believe the New York Times report... And the Iran war. Let me paint a picture for you, Clay, where there is a link, which is that the New York Times reported several weeks ago that it was Israel that basically persuaded Trump to go in on the strikes on Iran. The Iran war has become, I'm afraid, an increasing fiasco, mainly because of the situation with the Strait of Hormuz, not because America hasn't pounded with the Israelis the Iranian military, but the Iranian regime remains intact.

24:34Piers Morgan:They remain in control of the Strait of Hormuz. They remain with a tight grip now on the global energy economy. They are threatening to launch another barrage of missiles over at their Gulf state neighbours, which we know has pretty much, you know, not paralysed, but caused enormous damage to their ability to develop their new business model away from oil to safe tourism and so on. So, you know, this has not been going the way that everyone was assured it would go. And a lot of people, Clay, my point to bring it together, is that they believe that Trump was persuaded to do it by Israel. He's now come out today and said, Netanyahu does what I tell him.

25:10Piers Morgan:A lot of people think it was the other way round with that decision, and that decision, has had a massively negative impact on the cost of living to Americans, which is actually the number one issue they care about. And the interesting little twist, which I want you to explain to me, and then I'll get Glenn to respond to it, is notwithstanding that, Trump appears to still be wielding a lot of political power in the party. And my question would be, could he wield that power on his own, given his own very poor approval ratings right now, without the money from these billionaire Israeli donors? I think it's an interesting question.

25:47I don't think that Massey would have won if Israel had not spent a dollar, right? If Miriam Adelson, if AIPAC had not spent a dollar. Massey lost because President Trump is more popular in his district than Massey is. And as soon as President Trump said, Gal Ryan is my guy, Most of that money was spent to introduce Gal Ryan. Now, to answer your question more direct, that's my opinion. I think the data were reflected. Nobody knew him. They had to introduce him. That's why they had to spend so much money. He's running against an incumbent that everybody in the whole district knew on the Republican side.

26:27Now, on your point, you may remember this, Pierce. I'm going to be vindicated on this. Do you remember when I was on your show in the middle of the tariff wars and everybody, the stock market was down at$5 ,000. and I came on and I told you, Pierce, I will wear a clown nose on your show if within a year the stock market is not massively higher than it is on this day. It's now up 50 % since then. I will make a promise to you, Pierce. If the gas price is right now$4.50 per gallon on average, all 50 states, that's an average. If they are not 75 cents lower by the time of election day, much lower than they are today.

27:08I will come on the day after the midterm elections with a bright red nose for you. I believe President Trump - I think you're going to be wearing a big bright red nose. I believe President Trump knows and understands how to resolve this situation in Iran. No, he doesn't. I think that he is going to do so before the midterm election date. I think by Labor Day, the price of oil and gas will be down substantially in America. And I think America will be safer than it was

27:35Piers Morgan:before. All right, Glenn, I'm not buying that narrative. For the simple reason, I don't think Trump has control of this war. I think the Iranians have been militarily hammered, but in terms of their asymmetric strategy involving the Strait of Hormuz and the Gulf neighbours, I think they still maintain quite a large degree of control over what happens here. I think Trump's desperate to get out of this war, but trying to work out how he can do it, where it doesn't look like actually some kind of surrender or defeat. And it all comes down to this claim he now says the whole war's been about stopping them having a nuclear weapon.

28:10Piers Morgan:OK, but the enriched uranium remains buried away. There's no sign of the Iranians wanting to hand that over. I don't know why they would, because they'd lose all their leverage. The straight-up-almost remains in Iranian control. And so, you know, again, I'm not disputing the military overwhelming superiority of the Americans and Israelis, but I don't see how you can claim at the moment that this war is not just dragging on exactly in the way that Donald Trump said he would always try and avoid. It's just becoming slowly a bit of a forever situation because the Iranians are like, well, we can keep controlling the Strait of Hulmus and keep our enriched uranium buried away until the cows come home.

28:48Piers Morgan:And Trump doesn't want to get engaged again in military strikes, but Netanyahu does, again, comes back to the Israeli element here of competing agendas. What do you think? first of all just quickly on the whole narrative that's been pushed here Marjorie Taylor Greene like I said has become public enemy number one for Trump he drove her out of Congress called her a traitor repeatedly she voted for the big beautiful bill she voted for all of the Trump's domestic issues her blasphemy was that she began objecting to Trump's wars in the Middle East bombing of Yemen arming the Israelis bombing Iran getting a new involved in a new war with Iran so the idea that it was just because Massey voted against a bill that Marjorie Taylor Greene voted for when she got treated at least as badly, if not worse than Massey, is just laughable.

29:35Again, it's the kind of thing that's just designed to insult the audience intelligence that it wasn't about Israel. But on the Iran war, I think, you know, everybody knew that the U.S. was going to have military superiority. We had complete military superiority within weeks in the war in Iraq. Obviously, we had total military superiority over the skies of Afghanistan. They didn't have a Navy. They didn't have an Air Force. And yet we got dragged into these endless conflicts because asymmetrical fighting when you're defending your own country is an extremely powerful way of fighting off larger powers.

30:04And the Iranians are obviously enraged that they were attacked by the United States and Israel. They have their own domestic population to deal with. They can't look like they've capitulated either because that will then crumble or erode the entire justification for that regime, which is to protect the Iranian people, keep it a proud Persian nation. If Trump has been lying about this war from the start, saying from basically the beginning, The Iranians are on their knees. They're begging for any kind of surrender. They want to give us everything in exchange for nothing. He announced six weeks ago they agreed to give over the quote unquote nuclear dust.

30:35They agreed to stop funding Hezbollah and Hamas. They agreed to essentially everything that he wanted in exchange for nothing. And of course, that was all false because the Iranians know they have immense leverage. Trump's only choices are to restart the war, which will not only make Will have to come on and wear a gigantic red nose. Well, Will might be.

30:57Piers Morgan:It was Clay that would have to do that. But I'm quite happy to put the same challenge to Will. They both should wear one. We get them both on the red noses. Yeah, they both should absolutely wear one the next time. They come on, give it all this. People made a lot of money if they listened to me and kept their stocks. Stocks were at record highs. To be fair to Clay, you were right about that. The stock market, rich people always do well in the United States. Trump can restart the war and he can get involved into a Middle East conflict like the one he repeatedly promised he wouldn't do. Or he can just stop the war and be humiliated because none of the goals that he set out he was going to achieve will actually be achieved because the Iranians won't cooperate because why would they?

31:39or it could just be this third option where everything stays frozen, in which case there's no oil transiting through the Strait of Hormuz. Gas prices continue to go up. All these massive secondary effects on the world economy continue to cause massive suffering not only around the world, but especially in the United States against the people that Trump promised, whose life he was going to improve. If he had a way out of the war, the war would be over already. The reason the war is not over is because Trump has no way out. We should just let terrorists continue to engage in terrorism and the Strait of Hormuz.

32:12It's such a manipulative way. Iran has control of the Strait of Hormuz, which, by the way, they don't have at all because we put a blockade. But the only reason they have any aspect of strategic capability is because they're threatening to blow up people who are innocently traversing the Strait of Hormuz. That is basically they are terrorists threatening to take hostage the entire global economy. Which is what the U.S. is doing to Cuba. It's what the U.S. is doing to Cuba. Because they are crazy. It's what the Israelis are doing to Gaza. It's what the Israelis are doing for two generations. Let me bring in the two others because you guys have had a lot of air time here.

32:56Piers Morgan:Let me bring in Will Chamberlain. I mean, as Glenn just said, Clay just said the Iranians are crazy. I wouldn't say that Donald Trump's social media posts over the last three months have been exactly the most non-crazy stuff I've read in recent years. I mean, you could say it was even crazier than the Iranians. One minute he's going to annihilate the entire country, 90 million people, and he's going to do it in the next few hours. Next minute he wants a deal, then he's going to annihilate them again, then he wants a deal, then he's going to do this, then he's going to do that. U-turn after U-turn, change the planet.

33:29Piers Morgan:And what it says to me, knowing Trump very well, is that he wants to get out of this thing and he's trying to work out a way of getting out of it. But if at the end, Will, and we've debated the Iran war, so we don't have to re-litigate all that again between you and me, but if at the end of this, and I don't know quite how this ends, frankly, because I think it's in the Iranian interest to string it out as long as possible, but if it ends with the Iranian regime still in place, with the former Supreme Leader's son running the show as the new supreme leader, with the IRGC still in a tight control of its people, with the people not rising up at all, because they haven't done so far in three months, for a number of reasons, but they haven't, and with the strait of almost still having some form of control by the Iranian regime, perhaps even putting tolls on stuff that didn't exist before the war started, where's the victory?

34:21Piers Morgan:And if they keep their enriched uranium, where is the victory? You're right that that wouldn't be a victory in your hypothetical, which is why President Trump won't let it come to pass. I think that's the simplest way to understand that. President Trump is no fool. He understands that a world where Iran retains his enriched uranium and control over the Strait of Hormuz would be a world where the United States, if it withdraws, would have lost the war strategically. So he's not going to do that. Very simple. So there's basically the options available to him that he's actually going to take are, as Glenn put it, options, I think, number one and three, which are escalate, which I think is the most likely outcome here.

34:54I think President Trump is likely going to escalate within the next week or two, or kind of maintain the blockade and try and suffocate the Iranian economy that way. But if he escalates, Will, if he escalates, sorry to jump in, but if he escalates,

35:05Piers Morgan:the IRGC have already let it be known that if there's any escalation again in military strikes, they will launch a barrage again, and they've got still over 1 ,000 ballistic missiles reportedly. They will launch a barrage at their Gulf state neighbours, who are already feeling a very, very hard pinch from this, both economically and, I think, in terms of their alliances and in terms of their security and everything. The last thing they want, when they've already lost a lot of people who've gone home, who migrated there, tourism is obviously on its knees. If there's an escalation again and that carries it through the summer, it's going to be absolutely devastating for the whole region.

35:46Piers Morgan:And everyone knows that because we've seen it already. So how does Trump escalate without the Iranians escalating in a way that just makes this even worse? I think you have to do something like what you did at the beginning of Operation Epic Fury. I mean, there was all sorts of talk that tens of thousands of Americans would die. Well, I mean, if Epic Fury started out and everybody said tens of thousands of Americans would die if we did something like that, actually we lost a total of 13, probably roughly the same amount we would have lost in normal peacetime military operations. I think the United States military is extraordinarily capable in the event that we decide to escalate things and restart.

36:24We will do enormous damage to Iran's ability to threaten both either us or our Gulf Arab allies. And that will be the answer to your question.

36:33Piers Morgan:You sound extremely optimistic about that with no real reason to. I don't see the evidence. I mean, I think I have a lot of reason to be the military, the military success. We were told this would all be over in two to three weeks. I remember being assured this would be over in two to three weeks. Then it was six weeks. We're now three months into this thing. They've launched barrage after barrage after barrage until they stop barraging. And it didn't achieve any of the goals that were supposedly the goals of the war. So doing more barraging is fine. But all that will mean is... Well, that's just not true.

37:07Piers Morgan:Well, it is true. Who controls the state of all moves? The primary goal of the war was the great Iranian military capability. Who controls the state of all moves? That was achieved in spades. Yeah, but who controls the Strait of Hormuz? Actually, I mean, the United States. Oh, come off. The problem is also Iran is threatening to harass shipping, but the United States actually does control the Strait of Hormuz because we have a Navy in Iran. That's complete delusional nonsense. Of course they don't. Well, then why can't Iran get its ships out? Why can't the rest of the world get their tankers through unless it's approved by Iran?

37:38Because they're not willing to take the risk of Iranian harassment. But that doesn't mean that they have, like, meaningful control over the strait. Like, they can harass. Surely the people that actually control what ships go in and out.

37:49Piers Morgan:Well, you think America's controlling what ships go in and out. Maybe you're making an argument the United States and Iran currently share control of the Strait of Hormuz. Just to be clear, you think the United States is controlling access through the Strait of Hormuz right now? Yeah, effectively. That's complete nonsense. They have a full blockade on all the Iranian ports. We've almost reached the stage. I'm not singling you out for this. But we've almost reached the stage of Baghdad Bob, you know, old comical alley. You remember him? The guy in the Iraq war in 2003, he was literally standing there going, there's no sign of the Americans.

38:22Piers Morgan:And they were literally blowing things up behind him, right? You've reached the point where you're so desperate for this to be true. Why can't the rest of the world? Well, why can't the rest of the world? That's what he's asking you. Again, I already explained that they're harassing it. But again, I guess we're having a semantic debate about control, right? Semantic. Like obviously Iran still retains the ability to harass shipping. It's the crucial part of the whole thing. The Americans do because they don't have boats. But it's the crucial part of the whole thing. The Iranians have realized they can wage an asymmetric war involving controlling a small stretch of water, which is preventing a lot of the world's energy getting out.

38:56Piers, look, let me... You're saying asymmetric war. Yes. They are threatening terrorism, right? I mean, this is like saying, hey, the... Well, not really. I don't think it miscases.

39:06Piers Morgan:I think they are an appalling regime, very capable of propping up terror groups all over the Middle East. Let me just play out the analogy here. I would say that responding to attacks by the American and Israeli military, I wouldn't categorize Iran responding to that as terrorism, would you? Well, I would. Hold on. I would, because if you respond to the American military attack... Anyone can attack Iran in a war, but if they fight back, they're terrorists. Is that your argument? No, no. Let me explain. Yes. Let me explain. If they fire back in the United States, they are returning fire at us. That's not terrorism.

39:43That's a war, right? If they are threatening to blow up non-U.S. flagged, which they are, international ships, if they happen to pass by Iran, that is terrorism. And, Pierce, let me use an example. You wouldn't say that al-Qaeda controls American airports because we all have to go through the TSA to be concerned about whether they might blow up airplanes. Is that correct? Come on, Clay. That is the most torturous argument I've ever heard. They are threatening.

40:18Piers Morgan:You're comparing the TSA to the straight-up-form-o situation. In the same way the TSA controls an airport, right, because they make sure that there are no terrorists trying to kill people. Right. The United States blockade controls the straight-up-form moves. There isn't a blockade. That's the whole point. They stopped the blockade after about two days because it wasn't working. No, the blockade is there. Iran took their oil out. But tankers are coming through with Iran's permission. That's not a blockade, is it? The tankers that are coming through are with Iran's permission, not America's. Where's the blockade?

40:57Iranian oil is not going out unless the United States allows it. It's crazy that we allowed Iran to continue to pump Even while we're bombing the country, we've allowed Iranian oil and gas to continue to be pumped. What right now appears what they're running into is they don't have the capacity to store all the oil and gas in Iran, which is why their economy is in complete shambles.

41:21Piers Morgan:Well, actually, I've read that that is also a massive exaggeration of the reality, and that they can keep this going for months and months without any problem. I don't know. I'm just reading a lot of counter argument to that point, which has been a point made a lot. And I'm like, I'm not really sure that's true. Let me bring Buckley back in. But, I mean, Buckley, we're almost... I mean, in a way, the war has got asymmetric elements to it. This panel is now a completely asymmetric panel because you've got people who are wanting me to believe that America has full control of Australia foremost, that it's won the war militarily.

41:55Piers Morgan:So I'm not really sure what the problem is. How is it that the rest of the world's looking at this going, where's all our energy? Why are gas prices going through the roof? Why is gas prices a pump in America double where it was? If everything is as you guys are trying to sell it to me, and it's a bit of snake oil stuff going on here, then I don't know what the problem is. The war's been won. I mean, why are the Iranians just handing over the Iranians when we all go home? Buckley. That's why Clay's TSA analogy actually was accurate in that TSA doesn't keep Americans safer. It's total absurd feeder.

42:34People are suffering as a result. Same thing as saying America decimated a year and a half ago, and now we're at war because we're worried about them having nuclear capability. It's ridiculous. We don't have control of the straight-up news. That's just clearly obvious. By the way, if you're going to wear a red nose, Clay, I would say you should, but instead you should go to Kentucky, talk to some of your relatives, maybe buy some gas for some of the people in Massey's district or in Nashville or buy a$5 gallon of milk for them. Let people... But honest question. I have a lot of family that lives in Kentucky.

43:11Why did they not vote for Massey? They were completely deluged with foreign money. I mean, they were... Okay, so you think the people... Let me go back. Actually, let me ask you this question. You said that the money didn't have any effect. This was to introduce an unknown candidate, Gowron, to the electorate. On the fact that the guy, all his constituents' sheep, wouldn't actually debate Mazzie and said he was for a draft, what else is, what's the entirety of Gowron's policies? What's his policy platform that$33 million actually conveyed? It's a fair question. I trust the people of Kentucky's fourth congressional district to pick the person that they think best represents their interest.

43:59They believe, whether you agree or disagree with it, they believe that President Trump represents their interest better than Thomas Massey. And anyone that Trump endorsed, I believe, would have beaten Thomas Massey, just like in Indiana and just like in Louisiana. Trump is the most popular politician in any of these congressional districts that are represented by Republicans. But if that's the case, if that's the case, all right, McClain, I'm not saying you're wrong,

44:26Piers Morgan:but if that's the case, why is Trump's personal approval rating so bad? If he's that popular, how can he be also simultaneously so unpopular? It's a good question, and I would ask you this. Trump is the most popular politician in America right now. Who is a politician nationwide that has a higher approval rating than President Trump? I don't think there is one. There's no Democrat that's more popular than Trump. I think there's just a lot of angry people in America. And maybe the panel here represents that pretty well. Whether you're a Democrat, whether you're a Republican, whether you're an independent, people are just angry.

45:07And if you want my theory on why that is, inflation went up so high. I understand it. Every time I go through a Chick-fil-A drive-thru for my three boys, I have to pay over$50 for a fast food meal. That is lunacy. Things cost way too much because inflation went to 9 % under Biden. Affordability is by far the number one issue that people care about. And people haven't gotten used to how much everything skyrocketed in cost. The problem is, you see, your red nose challenge.

45:41Piers Morgan:The risk, I think, to you in this, and I'm going to include Will in this because he's pretty well launched himself under the same horse, is that you are making a bet that Trump, the great dealmaker, can extricate himself from this Iran war. And I'm not sure that he can. And I think the really interesting issue, which again brings it back to Israel, is I think that Netanyahu is sensing that Trump wants to get out of this and he wants him to do the opposite. wants him to double and treble and quadruple down on the military side to try and destroy the regime, get the uranium and so on. So you're going to have competing national interests there.

46:19Piers Morgan:The more that Netanyahu is at war somewhere, and currently he's at war there and in Lebanon, the more he's at war, the more popular he gets within the confines of Israel. However, if you're Israeli, I would say to you, but your country becomes more unpopular around the world as a consequence. So where's the trade-off there? Buckley, what was interesting was that Will posted something that Ted Cruz clearly enjoyed because he reposted it, which is this. We've got a picture of it here claiming that Massey's kiss of death was when he was on Tucker, your brother's podcast. What do you feel about that allegation?

46:58I think it's an absurd claim. Tucker is a journalist who gave Massey an opportunity to articulate his principled stands on things. They've been consistent for the 12 years he's been in Congress. It's in line with the program that Donald Trump has been articulating for more than 10 years as well, and exactly what people expected when they voted Donald Trump into office. So I'd love to see some exit polling from Kentucky. I haven't seen it. I don't believe for a moment that what Will Chambers says is true.

47:28Piers Morgan:So are you pretty convinced, Buckley, that it was the Israeli influence? It was the millions pumped in from the Israeli donors and there was an Israeli component to why they wanted Massey to lose? It was because he was becoming ever more strident in his criticism of the Israeli government. I think it's undeniable. What other rationale would there be for Miriam Adelson, Paul Singer and John Paulson and others who've articulated their loyalty lies with Israel, that they want more, you know, Iran for Israel wars fought by America, and they want more foreign funding. I don't know. I just have to add one point to this because it's driving me insane.

48:13This narrative that, oh, he was mad at Thomas Massey because of the big, beautiful bill. Look at the people who Donald Trump has waged war on who were once his allies. Marjorie Taylor Greene, Tucker Carlson, Megyn Kelly, Alex Jones, all of these people had no problem with the big, beautiful bill. They all have one thing in common. They're infuriated in general about U.S. largesse going to Israel and anger in particular that Donald Trump with Benjamin Netanyahu started the war in Iran. That is what gets you on Trump's angry list. If you can criticize him for his subservience to Israel and for his and opposing the war in Iran.

48:49And that's what all of those people that are now on his list of the evil people that he wants to expel from MAGA have in common. It's not the big beautiful bill. It's Israel and the Iran war. And if we're being honest, that is the only conclusion possible.

49:04Piers Morgan:Well, what's your response to that? Can I respond to this just quickly? Trump wanted Massey out before he ever bombed Iran the first time. In June of 2025, James Blair, who is President Trump's top advisor posted on Twitter, I hope you enjoy your final term in Congress. There may be multiple reasons why Massey lost. The reason Trump wanted him out in particular - That was when they bombed Iran, Clay, in June of 2025. It was before they bombed Iran. They wanted him out over the big, beautiful bill. They said, you're gone. Israel was not even an issue at the point in time in 2025 when Trump said you're out.

49:49And so he does not like Thomas Massey. That was when the Israel attacked Iran. That was a 12-day war. He hasn't liked him for years. Look, I like Massey. The truth of the matter is Kentucky 4th Congressional District members, the voters, they like Trump more than they like Massey. And you can try to make as many different stories about this as you want. But ultimately, the people of Kentucky's fourth, wants somebody who is going to support Trump 100 % of the time. 90 % is not enough from that district. And as a result, Trump is more popular and Massey lost. Now, if Massey has great arguments, I'd encourage him to run for president in 2028.

50:29Maybe the nation will respond better to his arguments. I love the marketplace of ideas. His career as a Kentucky politician, I think is over. It's just so funny when conservatives lose races, it's because of George Soros money and because the media is all aligned against them and all these institutions are against them. When a conservative gets the way they want an election like Thomas Massey's defeat, we go to third grade civics class and it's like a Jimmy Stewart movie. Oh, the citizens of Kentucky listened to both sides and they evaluated who they like best. Every president commands a cult of personality.

51:05I watched Democrats start cheering. Your argument is that the people of Kentucky's fourth who voted for 10 points for gallerine, which is really just an endorsement of Trump, aren't smart enough to vote in their own interest and made a poor choice. My argument is that as conservatives constantly argue when they lose elections, a major factor in why people vote who have full-time jobs, who are taking care of kids, who don't follow the news the way people like us do who are paid to do it that ads and all kinds of being bombarded with media stories people all these things are not people's perception to make the right choice in your opinion no it this is something that conservatives don't just say about people in kentucky people like you say this about everyone in the country when you use elections oh the media tricked them the people of kentucky i think president trump pretty well at this point and i think they want somebody is like a third grade you have a third grade 100 of the time they want it's really like i don't even think in a third grade civics class they would they would descend to this level where they pretend that money in politics is a non-issue that how many ads come on the air to convince people of things is a non-issue this is moronic he didn't have a single those ads were about demonizing massy nobody gives a shit about i don't even i don't even know ball run's name he said the only thing he will do in congress is whatever trump tells him to this had to do with demonizing to his real money you know i have a final question guys we run out of time i have a final question

52:38Piers Morgan:which is that donald trump uh openly admitted he asked for a warm body that could beat massy and my question for you clay is do you think that if it had been a cold body literally a dead cold body could it have beaten massey well i think uh democrats elected a dead man in pennsylvania recently so uh look i think that president trump could have picked any candidate that was a reasonable representative for kentucky's fourth and they would have beaten massey because he's more popular than massey is and the people of kentucky for want a hundred percent support for trump trump knew it and the voters proved it we've got to leave it there i will note, though, that the YouGov latest running poll of most popular politicians in America, of those who are currently still active politicians, Bernie Sanders is way more popular than Donald Trump.

53:31Piers Morgan:Elizabeth Warren is more popular than Donald Trump. I don't buy that at all. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez is more popular. Zoran Mandani is more popular than Donald Trump. Yes, that is not true. But I'm looking at it now, the YouGov most popular politicians in America poll. Most people in America don't know who Elizabeth Warren is. They don't know Mom Dottie. I'm talking about nationwide political candidates. If you are denouncing the rolling YouGov poll of popularity on those grounds, that is for you to do. YouGov is no idea what they're talking about. What are you basing your claim on then that Trump is the most popular president?

54:10I thought it was polling data. Exactly.

54:13Piers Morgan:You did say all the polls show that Donald Trump is the most popular. I don't even know who Mamdani is. So when you said all the polls, when you said he's the most popular guy polled in America, and then we said, but actually in all the polls he's not, you said, well, the polls are liars. So those things can't be true. Just an easy question for you. What percentage of Americans do you think even know Mamdani? Would recognize him in a photo? 100 % know Trump. Focus on Bernie. Bernie is more popular than Trump. Everybody knows Bernie Sanders. Focus on Bernie Sanders. He's more popular than Trump.

54:49And why isn't Bernie president?

54:51Piers Morgan:Why can't he even get the Democrat nomination? You know what? Maybe he will be. That'll be another debate. Guys, I've got to leave it there. Thank you all very much indeed. Three people were killed in a suspected terror attack at San Diego's biggest mosque on Monday. The two teenage suspects were found dead nearby with self-inflicted gunshot wounds. Both are said to be Nazi sympathisers and the FBI is treating it as a hate crime. Many have been quick to draw a direct line between this attack and rising anti-Muslim rhetoric in public life. Republicans in Congress held a meeting on Sharia law just days earlier.

55:23Piers Morgan:Congressman Andy Ogles recently said that Muslims don't belong in American society, while Congressman Randy Fine said he prefers dogs. And the case for the defence was not helped this week by Laura Loomer, a confidant of the US president, who posted that people who go to the mosque want everyone killed. Well, joining me now is Mehdi Hassan, founder of Zateo. Mehdi, welcome back to Uncensored. Thanks for having me, Piers. I wish it wasn't under these circumstances. Yeah, well, me too. There's been a lot of debate, obviously, about anti-Jewish rhetoric and the impacts of that and incidents, awful incidents in the UK and other places about that.

56:02Piers Morgan:Here we have an attack which appears to be motivated by a hatred of Muslims and Islam. Do you think it's getting the attention it would get had it been an attack on Jews, for example?

56:20That's a provocative question, Piers. I expect nothing less from you. I'll get in trouble whatever I say. But look, I think that the attacks on synagogues and mosques that we've seen recently are both horrific. Does one group get more coverage than the other? Yes. I don't want to play that as some kind of... You know, it's not that I'm saying that Jewish victims of hate crime should get less coverage, but clearly Muslims are treated as second-class citizens in this country, not just by Republican right-wing politicians like the ones you named, and I can name many more, who have said viciously anti-Muslim things, but by the media, by liberal media, by the Democratic Party, by ordinary Americans, and that's a reality, and I think that's the case in the UK as well, Piers, where we just had this rally against Muslims in London, which I know you've covered on your show, and we haven't seen the political establishment come down on that rally in the way they would if Tommy Robinson was saying things about Jews and Judaism in the way he does about Muslims and Islam.

57:11I hope we can agree that, unfortunately, Islamophobia has been mainstreamed in America and the UK in a way that, thankfully, anti-Semitism still hasn't, although there has been an alarming rise in anti-Semitism across the political spectrum. On the subject, specifically of the mosque and the shooters, you mentioned anti-Muslim. I just want to add here, if you look at the alleged manifestos from these two kids, these two teenagers, God help us, that two teenagers carry out this murder, this terrorist attack. If you look at the manifesto, it appears they're anti-Semitic and Islamophobic. The manifesto has horrific stuff in there about Jews and about Islam as well.

57:45So Jonathan Friedland and I wrote a joint piece almost a decade ago pointing out that people who tend to be anti-Semitic also tend to be Islamophobic and vice versa. They're two sides of the same point. That's really interesting.

57:56Piers Morgan:I actually bumped into Jonathan Friedland at the Arsenal game the other night, randomly. I would like to have known that. It's a fascinating part of this. So what does that tell you, that extremism of all kinds eventually kind of meets in terms of a lot of the ideology? Well, I think with a specific type of extremism, which is white nationalists and Nazis, and this is why people like myself have been very careful. I got attacked recently for being sceptical of the left getting into bed with MTG and Tucker Carlson and Candace Owens, precisely for the reason that a lot of lefties admire those people now because they're criticising Israel.

58:34And I worry that how much of that is driven by criticism of Israel, how much by anti-Semitism, how much will Muslims be on the receiving end of the hate once, quote, unquote, they're done with, you know, another community. And I just think minority communities need to stick together right now because the far right hate all of us. The people who claim to be white Christian nationalists and who want this country to be a white Christian nation, they don't want any of us here, Jews or Muslims. And it's interesting to read this manifesto depressing and see these two kids who were clearly radicalized red-pilled online.

59:03They're kids, for God's sake. They got radicalised online, clearly. They turn up wearing Nazi symbols and SS symbols. And, yeah, the manifesto, and I don't know how authenticated it's been, but this is the manifesto that's attributed to them online, suggests that they hated Jews and Muslims.

59:20Piers Morgan:So is it necessarily, then, a political issue? You know, you would, as you have done, you said that a lot of the rhetoric that comes from these Republican, you know, hard-right conservatives has inflamed the mood. But are those two things consistent? Because obviously if they're being anti-Semitic... I think they are consistent. No, I think they are consistent because it's all about what atmosphere you create in this country. And there's no denying the fact that since Donald Trump came on the scene in 2015, we now have an atmosphere in this country that is more hate-filled, with more hate crimes, more political violence...

59:54But there's also a more toxic, more violent, more divisive atmosphere.

59:57Piers Morgan:Right, but in 2025, there was more violence from the far left than there was from the right for the first time in a long time. And I found it incredibly disturbing... Well, the crucial statement is... Well, I found... Look, we'll come to the right part of this, but on the left, what I found increasingly disturbing to watch is the kind of callous inhumanity that a lot on the left show themselves to have when you look at, like, the murder of Charlie Kirk, for example, or the healthcare executive. You know, I saw the front page of the New York Post yesterday with these three appalling women, young women, whose brains were so warped that they just want to be celebrating the cold-blooded murder of a father and husband in the streets of New York.

1:00:43Piers Morgan:So what is going on there?

1:00:48So let me just say two things about that. One is I'm glad you said for the first time in many years.

1:00:52Piers Morgan:Yeah. Because the reality is that for decades, and even now, right-wing violence is a huge problem in the United States, and people are in denial about this. Many of your guests have come on and just lied about the fact that political violence is not a right-wing problem. Sebastian Gorka, who runs the counterterrorism strategy for this government, just put out an anti-terrorism strategy, Piers, from the Trump administration, which did not mention the far right. It mentioned the left. It mentioned Muslims. It mentioned communists. Antifa doesn't mention the right, which is insane when the majority of violence in this country in the recent years has come from the right.

1:01:25So that's one point. Number two, in terms of the reactions, I know you're not going to like me saying this, but I think the evidence is with me, is that the people you cite, the people who do celebrate murder or say dumb shit or act callously, are a fringe, Piers. When Charlie Coe was killed, everyone I saw, mainstream leftists, was not celebrating it, and every single Democrat, from Kamala Harris to Joe Biden to every Chuck Schumer, was condemning it, right? And when any kind of political violence happens, mainstream people on the centre-left, whether it's in the Labour Party in the UK or the Democratic Party in the US, call it out.

1:01:57Can I finish my point? Can I finish my point?

1:01:58Piers Morgan:I'm just challenging that one thing. Can you finish my point? I would challenge one thing on that. There were university professors, there were doctors, nurses, teachers. There were people in real positions of authority and responsibility that were quite happy to post videos of themselves celebrating Charlie Coe's murder. I'm going to dispute that, Piers. No, I'm going to dispute that. If you really want to get into a hold of it, I was there following a lot of this. A lot of the people who were doxxed were not celebrating. They were pointing out that he said horrible things, which is totally a legitimate thing to say.

1:02:28They were not celebrating his death. That was a right wing propaganda line. But we don't have time to get into each individual case. Can I make my broader point, which is when a mosque is attacked in the U.S., Republican politicians are either silent. I pointed this out that Ted Cruz did not condemn it until I called him out on it. Multiple Republicans have still not condemned. Elise Stefanik has not condemned it. She's busy condemning some Democratic candidate in Texas who said something awful. They have not condemned a terrorist attack in the United States. That's one point. You can't find Democrats who do the saying when there's a synagogue attack or anything equivalent.

1:02:59And then, of course, there's no one on the Democratic side who's talking like Laura Loomer. There just isn't. Find me one person. Imagine, Piers, I said this on Twitter. Imagine if an advisor to Joe Biden, a close friend and ally of Biden, when Biden was president, after a synagogue was attacked, had said the synagogue was evil and that all Jews should be removed from the U.S. It would have been the end of the Biden presidency. You would have been on a roll loop for seven days straight. We know this. And yet Republicans get away with this stuff. You mentioned Andy Ogles. It's not just Andy Ogles.

1:03:28It's Representative Brandon Gill, who said Islamic immigration is killing us. Chip Roy, Representative Chip Roy of Texas, who said no more Muslims, he said in March in a tweet. You have, of course, Randy Fine, who you've had on this show, who said mainstream Islam, not Islamism, not jihadism. Mainstream Islam is an evil death cult, he said. If you're telling me that doesn't contribute to an atmosphere where people might want to pick up weapons and attack Muslims and mosques, I don't know what to say to you.

1:03:52Piers Morgan:Well, yeah, I mean, I had this debate with Jonathan Conrickus yesterday, the former IDF spokesman, because at the Tommy Robinson March, there were speakers brazenly talking about removing Islam from all aspects of politics and authority in the UK. They weren't saying Islamists or extremists or anything. They were just basically... And, of course, you know, Islam is followed by Muslims. They were basically just saying, get the Muslims out. And Jonathan was trying to defend this and happy to say he attended the march and, you know, wasn't phased by what he heard. And I was like, but imagine if it had been about Jews there.

1:04:28Piers Morgan:Imagine if they said we're going to get all the Jews out of Parliament, all the Jews out of local-level politics in the UK. All hell would have broken loose. Now, conversely... By the way, by the way, can I just add to that, Piers? I'm glad you pushed Jonathan Conricus on that. And you know what he said to you in response? He said, oh, it wasn't about Muslims, it was about Islam, which is this kind of very lazy distinction. Well, Islamism, he called it. Because it's interesting that in the shoot... Well, no, he tried to disagree with him from the fact that the speaker who you referenced said Islam and not Muslims, as if that's some kind of get-out.

1:04:57I would point to the Shooter's Manifesto in San Diego where the shooter specifically says, Piers, at the manifesto, I don't hate Muslims, I hate Islam. It's the same get-out that even mass murderers are using.

1:05:08Piers Morgan:Yeah, because my point is always I hate extremists. I don't care if they're Muslim extremists or Christian extremists... So do I. ..or any extremists, or Jewish extremists. Some of the activities we're seeing on the West Bank right now are the worst kind of extremist terrorism. The Israeli finance minister said yesterday he's going to ethically cleanse an entire Palestinian town. Yeah, I saw it. You know my view of Ben Gavir and Smodrich. I think they're genuinely evil people. You know, when someone is given, as Ben Gavir was recently, a 50th birthday present from his own wife, which has a noose on a cake, right, you're dealing with psychopathic mentality.

1:05:42Piers Morgan:And I don't care who doesn't want to hear that. You are. And if it was the other side, if you were seeing Hamas commanders do that, people would say, look at them, they're psychopaths. So I think you've got to be intellectually honest about this. Talking of which, we did a bit of research into hate crimes targeting people for their religious beliefs. In 2025, the FBI said that nearly 70 % of US religion-based hate crimes targeted Jews. So, and in October 2023, FBI Director Christopher Wray in the Biden administration warned the US was reaching historic levels of anti-Semitism. So although Jews make up only 2.4 % of US public, they account for about 60 % of all religious-based hate crimes, which was nearly a 10 % increase at the time.

1:06:30Piers Morgan:And in the UK, the Home Office said hate crimes against Muslims are almost twice as likely to result in prosecution than those against Jews. So there's a lot of statistics here, which, when you take them together, would suggest that there is more hate crime against Jews than there is against Muslims. What would you say to that? Yeah, I'm not trying to play a victim Olympics. I think there are far too many hate crimes across the board. I'm on the left, Piers. I don't like hate crimes in general. I'm worried about the rise of the far right, and I'm worried about hatred and bigotry. I'm not happy that Donald Trump pardoned a guy who wore a Camp Auschwitz T-shirt to January the 6th, and now that guy might be able to get millions of dollars of tax money from a slush fund that Donald Trump just created.

1:07:15So I'm against pardoning anti-Semitic rioters. I'm against being soft on anti-Semitic criminals. I don't think two things are inconsistent, though, Piers, which is to say, number one, there's a lot of anti-Semitic hate crimes out there, right? I've written about them. There were two horrific synagogue attacks under Donald Trump's first presidency, if you remember, by far-right activists, not by far-left activists. But at the same time, we should also acknowledge gladly that at least we take anti-Semitism seriously as a society, as a media, as a country. No one would say that the governments of the countries are not taking it seriously.

1:07:49Donald Trump has set up multiple anti-Semitism investigations, task forces. Republicans in Congress have held like I think a dozen hearings on anti-Semitism. Do you know how many they've held on Islamophobia? None. Not a single specific hearing on Islamophobia. So it's not about who's prosecuted more, who's attacked more. We agree that many communities are taking the brunt of it. Jews, the oldest hatred, are facing lots of anti-Semitism. What Muslims are upset about is that anti-Muslim hatred is mainstreamed and normalised in this country in a way that anti-Semitism or anti-black racism or homophobia is not mainstreamed and normalised.

1:08:20That's what people are upset about.

1:08:22Piers Morgan:There's also a kind of weird campaign I think to dispute that Islamophobia even exists as a thing. I haven't heard anybody argue about anti-Semitism or racism or any of the other things. It's almost like there are up to 2 billion Muslims on planet Earth. Islamophobia is a thing. I see it all the time on social media where people don't object to parts of the Islam faith or teachings. They hate Muslims and they make no bones of it. That is Islamophobia. And my argument with someone like Tommy Robinson, who says, well, I've got Muslim friends and so on, but he only ever posts on his social media feed crimes that are committed largely by Muslims.

1:09:08Piers Morgan:That's his thing. So he's telling millions of people all the time that there's just this big problem with Muslims committing despicable crimes. And yet when I have people on who want to support him, I say, yeah, but the vast majority of crime in the UK, for example, including sex crimes against women, is perpetrated by white men. Statistically, it's just a fact. And then they get into, you know, percentages and pro rata and all that kind of thing. And it's not an illegitimate... Well, there's a... These aren't illegitimate things to point out. There's a bigger issue. There's a bigger issue even...

1:09:37Piers Morgan:But it's exaggerated for a reason. You and I have debated the rape issue. You and I have debated rape, and one thing I would say without wanting to relitigate all of that is what's even worse than the whole argument about are you overrepresented, underrepresented is even when we talk about rape gangs, we say Islamic rape gangs, Pakistani Muslims. Which other crime do we define by religion? Imagine if I came on this show and I said Bernie Madoff, the Jewish financier who ripped people off during the financial crisis, you would say that's anti-Semitic. Legitimately so. We don't, we never define crimes by religion except when it's a Muslim.

1:10:09Well, it's true, because if I ask Tommy Robinson... The Muslim terrorist.

1:10:12Piers Morgan:You know, I agree. So if Tommy Robinson came on here, and he won't, for reasons that are obvious, because he doesn't want to have to repeat his lies which got him into prison, because he knows I'd test him, and then he'd go back to prison. But if he did, I'd say, look, of all the white male sex crimes against women perpetrated in the UK each year, how many are perpetrated by white Christians? He would have no idea. He wouldn't know. So that's to your point. When you start talking about any crimes perpetrated by Muslims, he'd have all the statistics he could possibly want to have. In other words, he's willfully blind to the fact that there could be any crime committed by Christians.

1:10:53He's a bigot, Piers. You're being very polite. He's a bigot, and when you're a bigot, you focus only on one thing. When you're an anti-Semitic bigot, you focus on Jews. When you're an anti-Muslim bigot, you focus on Muslims. By the way, can we just deal with this issue that I hear guests on your show often say, oh, Islamophobia. You can't have a phobia. That's a fear. It's a made-up word, even though we're totally fine saying homophobia. That doesn't mean you literally fear gay people. I mean, it's insane the double standards people contort around language to try and justify their bigotry. People say, well, I'm not against Muslims.

1:11:20I'm against Islam, the religion. Yet people I deal with, they never want to debate the prophethood of Muhammad with me. They never want to debate theology with me. They want to debate, as you say, gangs in England or suicide bombings in the Middle East. It's never actually about Islamic theology. Let's just be clear. This is racism. And then they say, well, it's not racism because Islam is not a race, it's a religion, even though they pick on people who look visibly Muslim. Did you know, Piers, the first person to be killed in the United States of America after 9-11 in an anti-Muslim hate crime was not Muslim.

1:11:48It was a Sikh man in Arizona who was wearing a turban, had a beard. And so the racist man thought he was a Muslim and killed him, Balbir Singh Sodi. Did you know that the other day in the UK, a man raped a Sikh woman? And as he raped her, he attacked her for being a Muslim. The headlines in the British media just mentioned that she was a Sikh woman, didn't mention that it was an anti-Muslim-motivated hate crime by an idiotic bigot who thought she was a Muslim woman, the poor woman.

1:12:11Piers Morgan:Are you concerned about the fact that there are apparently approaching 100 unofficial, because they're not legal in the UK, but Sharia courts operating in the UK? Does that concern you? No, because, number one, I don't know about those numbers. In the past, when I looked into this subject myself, A, the numbers are exaggerated. B, a lot of what these Sharia courts do is personal civil stuff, which is not criminal, does no weight of law. It's a way for married couples to also get an Islamic divorce, not just a civil divorce. And by the way, again, not wanting to play the double standard game, but I can't help it here.

1:12:50I mean, I find it astonishing that a lot of right wing Jewish people who hate Muslims now because of Israel are going on about Sharia courts and ignoring the fact, you know, Melanie Phillips comes to mind. The Beth Din, the Jewish community in the UK, has religious courts called the Beth Din. If you're going to ban all religious courts, fine with me, but just be consistent.

1:13:09Piers Morgan:What about the issue of mass migration generally? I mean, it's indisputable, for example, that we now have millions more Muslims who've come into the country than were here 30 years ago, right, for example. And obviously then the Muslim population in the UK will grow exponentially as a consequence of that. And, you know, we can... I'm not going to debate the fact that successive governments, left and right, have completely... had a sort of fiasco, a series of policies about immigration generally, I think, which has created a lot of the tension and problems in the country, which then get exaggerated and used for political reasons.

1:13:46Piers Morgan:But in terms of mass migration, many people I speak to, very smart people, who don't really have a horse in the race, right, who are just trying to look at this dispassionately, say that this issue of mass migration and the issue of millions of Muslims, for example, along with other groups of people, that inevitably that will have an impact on any society that they go to. Do you accept that argument? I mean, the argument being if you suddenly put, you know, five million Christians into Saudi Arabia, for example, it would obviously have an impact on the society, on the country, on the way it operated.

1:14:26Piers Morgan:It would probably lead to a lot of fear and resentment from Muslims there and so on. Do you understand that argument? Do you accept it? Do you think there are reasons to be sensible about this? I understand it. I don't accept the premise because five million Muslims did not just land in the West. This happened, you know, immigration happened over time. And, of course, you're not counting the fact that many of the millions of Muslims who live in the West, like myself, are born and raised in the West. Many are second, third, fourth generation now. You know, I have friends who are grandparents who were born in the UK.

1:14:59Their grandkids are now born in the UK or the US. So this idea of making it about migration is kind of absurd. You look at some of, you know, you look at the mayor of London, who attracts so much hate and attention, partly because of your old pal Donald Trump, who's targeted him, and now Tommy Robinson and others, and Elon Musk. Sadiq Khan is born in London, raised in London, is the mayor of London, three-term mayor of London. That's something to be proud of. That is integration and immigration and, you know, at its best. And I can list a whole host of British Muslim politicians who have done the same.

1:15:30You look at Hamza Yusuf, who was first minister of Scotland, Muslim born and raised there. You look here in the U.S., Rashida Tlaib, member of Congress, Muslim born and raised, representing the state where she was born and raised. So I think, you know, this idea that it's just about migrants, first of all, we should put to bed. And number two, you know, you look at someone like Germany that did take in a million Syrians, Angela Merkel. I was no fan of Angela Merkel, but that was a big, bold move that may have eventually cost her her political career legacy. But there are many people in Germany who would argue that many of those Syrians were well integrated.

1:15:59Now, people on the German right say, oh, there's an increase in crime and this and that. There's a big debate about those statistics and who is perpetrating those crimes. Is it newcomers? Is it single young men from countries in the last few years? Actually, was the Syrian diaspora actually well integrated? Did Angela Merkel do a good job? But, you know, the idea that in the U.K. or the U.S. there's been some flooding of Muslims. I mean, Piers, we're talking about, look at Texas, for example. There is a moral panic, a hysteria in Texas about Muslims taking over the state. Muslims make up a tiny, tiny percent, less than 5 % of the state of Texas is Muslim.

1:16:30Meanwhile, Republican politicians are running on, we must ban Sharia law, we must stop Muslim mosques. How am I supposed to take that seriously? That is sheer fear-mongering, hysteria-mongering. That is a creation of a moral panic around a minority community that is already demonized, already facing attacks on its mosques. And I think the key point is to push back against the lies that surround a lot of this debate.

1:16:52Piers Morgan:One of the reasons, like, a lot of the people that go on these marches with Tommy Robinson, look, some of them are absolute Neanderthal thugs. Of course they are. You can see it when they post stuff. But there are other people there for perfectly well-intentioned reasons who feel like they're losing the identity of their country. You know, they would have grown up in families believing that England, for example, was predominantly a white Christian country and they feel it's changed very rapidly and that there's a possibility, the way things are going, that in 50 years' time it could be a Muslim-majority country and that you would lose the identity and the...

1:17:27Piers Morgan:So this is a genuine concern that they have, right? Would that be a concern to you? Should England be ever a majority Muslim country? Not through some conspiracy, but, you know, Last time I checked, it's a free country. So it depends what happens to... America obviously is different. There is no established church. It's a very, very secular country with a separation of church and faith. Despite what the rights say, the founders did not bill this country as a Christian country. Anyone can be American at any time. It's one of the great virtues. And I have become an American myself. The UK, obviously, you could argue established religion, Church of England, etc.

1:18:06And by the way, when you poll people in the UK, Piers, Do you know who supports the monarchy and the Church of England more than, you know, above average? Muslims do. Yeah, I know. Muslims like the idea of established religion. It gives them great, it gives their faith great protections. And a lot of Muslims are fans of Charles, who's been a great defender of faiths, as he famously put it. But on the numbers, I just want to go back to your point about the concern. People do, I'm not saying that everyone on the march is some crazy racist thug, but they have all been misinformed and brainwashed and propagandized.

1:18:34You look at the interviews that were done with some of these marches. They believe crazy numbers. They believe that Muslim populations are bigger than they are. They believe that immigrants are getting special treatment that they're not getting. And I think we have to deal with, Piers, with our industry. The media has played a huge role, right-wing newspapers in particular, but the media as a whole, in lying to people about immigration, in lying to people about the numbers, in demonizing immigrant crimes. And you mentioned about people saying, well, you know, they're used to a white Christian country.

1:18:59Have you ever noticed, Piers, that the people, the places the far right often do best are places with no immigrants in them? Why is that? Isn't it interesting that people in areas where there aren't many immigrants, where there hasn't been much demographic change, they're the most hostile to immigration because they see on TV and in their papers, this is happening in London or Birmingham. And in London and Birmingham, people are fine about it. You live in London, you know people get along great in cities where there are migrants. So I find the polling shows, and it's shown this for years in the UK, that the most anti-immigrant people in the UK tend to live in places where there are very few immigrants.

1:19:30And therefore, most of their information about migrants and immigration is coming from the media.

1:19:34Piers Morgan:I actually, one of the things, I think conversations like the ones you and I have regularly are really important for the public to be able to listen to sensible conversation about it. Because one of the problems with the Tommy Robinson phenomenon, other than he goes to America and just lies to his back teeth about everything, including himself, and spells this sort of doom-laid and apocalyptic view of England being run over by Muslims and so on, which is absurd. But, of course, if you look at the grooming rape gang scandal in the north of England, it was a genuinely horrific scandal. It was perpetrated by predominantly Pakistani British Muslim men against white young girls' women.

1:20:18Piers Morgan:And it was covered up at all branches of authority and the law out of a fear that if you had the conversation out loud and said what had been happening, it would inflame enormous racial tensions. Every part of that is wrong. And it seems to me the only way that you can cut through that is to have genuine, open dialogue with people, like we've just been having, right, where you talk about these things in a way that maybe people can listen to, and it's not driven by violent, extremist rhetoric that everything's about to end if you don't do that. And, Piers, look, can I add something to that, which is, of course, what happened was horrific, Those communities need to have long, hard discussions about what happened.

1:21:03The police, I've come on your show before and talked about the role of the police in that cover-up, horrific, which wasn't necessarily driven by political correctness. There was a lot of corruption and crime involved there, a lot of money exchanging hands there. But without wanting to relitigate that, I would make a broader point, which is I get that I want to be able to talk about crimes committed by people in my community. I've been someone who's been condemning al-Qaeda and terrorism for years. You can see my journalistic record goes back 15 years on this stuff. But the problem I have is I can't do it if all of that stuff is always weaponized by the Tommy Robinsons and the Elon Musks and the Donald Trumps of this world.

1:21:36And the classic example is the rape story, because you want me to believe that Tommy Robinson and Elon Musk give a shit about women and rape. Don't make me laugh. They support Donald Trump, a man who was found liable for sexual abuse. They support all sorts of other people who have been involved in also that don't even get me started on the Epstein affair and who was involved in that. So it's very hard for me to believe that this is being driven by good intention people. These are people who are, they are vultures. They come to the scene of a tragedy and they try and take it to weaponise it for their own preconceived racist political agendas.

1:22:07I think we need to be able to say that while also acknowledging we're not downplaying the crimes that were committed.

1:22:12Piers Morgan:Finally, Mehdi, you're a Liverpool supporter. I understand. You've obviously had a terrible season. I'm an Arsenal supporter. We've obviously just won the Premier League and probably about to win the Champions League. I just wonder whether you want to take this opportunity. I wouldn't have agreed to come on the show if I'd known we were going in this direction. Well, I just thought if you just wanted to make a statement of how, you know, congratulations to Arsenal on their triumph. I don't really want to, but I will if you expect me to. Congratulations to you, Piers, and to Arsenal. Look, I grew up in the 1990s, and most of my period as a Liverpool fan was seeing Liverpool win nothing.

1:22:53I basically became a Liverpool fan after the glory years of the 80s. I spent much of my life seeing Liverpool win nothing. My daughter is now a mad Liverpool fan. She gets to see them win two premiership titles. I didn't. So, in a sense, them not winning this season has just kind of returned to form for me.

1:23:07Piers Morgan:Well, I had the opposite, because my sons, who are 32 down to 25, they spent 22 years waiting for us to win a league after we'd won it five times in 15 years. I got spoiled. My kids got deprived. So last night, my eldest boy went up to the Emirates Stadium. It was like a scene out of Fever pitch, the movie. And there they were, the Horde, the thousands. A very multicultural group at Arsenal as well, I might add. Jews, Muslims, Christians, white, black, brown. The best of British. The best of London. I made the point that, ironically, I think there were more people outside the Emirates Stadium last night at midnight who were genuinely uniting the kingdom than to take part in Tommy Robinson's rather divisive and polarising Unite the Kingdom march.

1:23:55Piers Morgan:And if you want to see multiculturalism at its best, go to someone like a football stadium when a team's won. Nobody cares who you are or what you are. They just looked around and saw fellow Arsenal fans having a great time. There's a message there for everyone. There is a message for everyone. Can I just say one thing on that, since we talked a lot about Islamophobia and we talked about communities? One of the great studies, my favourite academic study, is the study that found that when Mo went to play for Liverpool, Islamophobic hate crimes went down in Liverpool. Yeah, it says it all. Mehdi, always good to talk to you.

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