“Tuchel Has Got It Wrong” John Terry, Simon Jordan & Piers Morgan Debate England's World Cup Hopes

18:55Listen, also, I think everyone compares these guys as well. I think we should just be really blessed that we're in a generation where we've got two of the best players ever. We don't need to compare them. I think everyone's got their favourites and their reasons why. We should just enjoy these two because it's probably their last World Cup. Do I think either side go all the way? No, I don't, but I'm excited to see them both at this World Cup.

19:14Piers Morgan:Simon, people say, you know, I understand a lot of players would say that, I think, but we can have a good old tear-up about this. Because it is a great talking point for fans. My argument about Ronaldo is not just that he scored the most goals in history. It's where he's played. It's the fact he's done it in so many countries. That's the point, isn't it? He's won the league in Portugal, he's won it in England, he's won it in Spain, he went to Italy and he won it there. Now in Saudi as well. I agree. I just think it's the fact that he's tested himself again and again in different countries, different leagues.

19:46Piers Morgan:And Messi never did that. He was brilliant. in that Barcelona team. So you and Simon have the debate, but I played against both and I'm kind of ruled out of this one. No, no, I'm going to bring you back in on the pure technical level. I'm going to ask you what you would feel on a wet Wednesday in Stoke, the classic question, because if you think that Messi's... I'll tell you what, before I get Simon to respond, let me just ask you one simple question, John, to tee up Simon. A wet Wednesday in Stoke, the classic question that people always use... I don't know why it's Stoke's fault or why it should be a wet Wednesday, but it is.

20:16Piers Morgan:It's a wet, cold night in Stoke. And you've got to choose one of them to score a goal to save your life in 90 minutes. Which one is it? Peter Crouch. Very good. Come on, Ronaldo or Messi to save your life on a wet, cold night in Stoke? Messi for me every day. It's not Messi because he doesn't do it on wet nights in Stoke. He's only ever done it on warm nights in Barcelona. Chronic migraine is 15 or more headache days a month, each lasting four hours or more. Botox, onabotulinum toxin A, prevents headaches in adults with chronic migraine before they start. It's not for those with 14 or fewer headache days a month.

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21:43Piers Morgan:Really? To save your life? Listen, I'm not sitting here saying, Piers, I love Ronaldo probably as much as you. But I think when you're having the debate as these two guys, I see it the other way for me. But who would you... All right, Simon, go on. If you're asking me who I think is the greatest player of all time, I think it's George Best. So I have a different conversation. If you're asking me between these two players and reducing it to that, then I would say Ronaldo because I think he's more dynamic. I think that, as you have said, he's played in Italian, Portuguese, English, Italian leagues.

22:12and the sound of it. And he played away at Stoke as well. And he played away at Stoke. I mean, John, if you were playing against either one of these, who would you least like to play against? Messi. Messi. Really? Yeah. Listen, they're both a nightmare. You can't get near them. No matter how good you are as a defender, you can't get near them. If those two guys want to perform and want to go and score a goal and do magical things, they can do and they can embarrass you.

22:33Piers Morgan:But I don't even think Messi's the best Argentinian. I genuinely believe Maradona was a better player. He played on rougher pitches. He went to Napoli when they'd never won a dime, and he won the Serie A twice in four years. He won the World Cup with Argentina. He was absolutely sensational, Maradona, and far more physical, I would argue, than Messi. So if it came down to who's the greatest Argentinian, I'd go Maradona. Therefore, automatically, he can't be better than Ronaldo. I think that gets thrown at Messi quite a lot, that he's not as robust and this, that and the other. Believe me, I've kicked him, I've pulled him, punched him in the sides, he bounces up and he's very much up for that fight.

23:13Loves the battle, ideally doesn't want to get into that, but when you give it in, it actually pokes the bear a little bit more. So actually, I later learnt a few more games down the line that you actually ask him for your shirt, Sam, a big fan of yours, and went the softer route to try and get him on side a little bit.

23:28Piers Morgan:Did that work? A little bit, yeah. Because it's interesting, the George Best thing, because when I first interviewed Ronaldo back in about 2018, I don't think it was. And we went out to dinner afterwards. I'd never met him. And we'd exchanged quite a lot of messaging before then. We did the interview. It was great. Very moving about his dad, because I showed him a video clip of his father, which he'd never seen. And his father obviously died really just before he hit the big time. And he was very moved and emotional. So we want to have this dinner. And I said to him, you know, who's the best player you've ever seen?

23:57Piers Morgan:And Ronaldo said Messi to me. But he made a point of saying, obviously, I haven't seen myself play because I've been playing. So he was joking. But he said Messi was the best he'd seen. But he said the thing that's differentiating those two, he said, me and Messi, from everybody else, and he started mentioning George Best and Ronaldinho and the other Ronaldo, the phenomenon, and others. R9, yeah. But he said if you look at the number of years they were at their peak, he said it was really about four or five for all of them, if that, right? And he said that it's because in almost every case they didn't take as much care over their bodies and their training and everything else as he and Messi had done.

24:37Piers Morgan:I mean, John, do you think that's a fair argument? Yes, 100%. I think if you're a young kid and you're coming through now, there's one person and one player you look at, and that's Ronaldo. I think the younger generation idolise him. They look at the way he eats. What is he, 41 still in his body? I mean, it's incredible to be doing what he's doing and still playing in World Cups at his age is phenomenal. But also, I think also, John, watching him in Saudi, how much it meant to him to win the Saudi league. when they conceded the last-minute goal, which cost them the league the week before, and then they had to still win another game, which they then did.

25:11Piers Morgan:But he was in tears. This is Ronaldo at 41 earning a gargantuan sum of money in the desert in Saudi. He's revolutionised football in Saudi. But it meant so much to him, even now, after all he's won. I think I've read some of him and Messi have won nearly 90 trophies between them over 20 years. The fact it means that much to him, it can make him cry. It's incredible, isn't it? It's unbelievable. You speak to players at Man United, he used to walk in with the ump, losing a five-a-side game. If someone kicked him, he'd get the ump and he'd hate losing, wanted to score all the goals. Winners like that and players like that don't get to the very top without having that mentality.

25:48So people often ask me, what's the best advice you can give to any young players? The mentality of these guys.

25:53Piers Morgan:Yeah. Let's just talk quickly about a story about you, John, as in the news. because Steve McLaren was talking about you and a certain conversation you might have had on the telephone when you were trying to land in Russia. Let's take a look. We went to Russia, took us ages to land. Why are we circling around the airport? We can't land. It's the Russians. So John Terry actually phoned Abramovich on the plane. Did he? And said, Roman, we can't land. for some reason we are not landing and we're going round and round in circles. And five minutes later, all of a sudden we landed. I thought that's the influence.

26:37Piers Morgan:A, is that true, John? And B, what did you say to Roman? Little bit of VAT on that from Steve, but basically we landed at Russia. As we pulled in the tarmac, it come over the tannoy from the captain that we're going to be a couple of hours and we're waiting for a slot. So I was sitting next to Wazza at the time and Wayne said to me, and the boys, call Roman. Now, I didn't have Roman's number. I called Eugene Tenenbaum, he's number two, and said, Eugene, they've told us we're going to be a couple of hours. We've got a big game tomorrow against Russia. Can you kind of do anything? He went, leave it with me.

27:08And, Piers, it wasn't even two minutes. The phone call come back. You'll be moving shortly. And as I got off the phone, they come over the tunnel and we found the parking spot. We'll be making our way to the terminal.

27:20Piers Morgan:It's incredible to hear that story, But also to remind ourselves, Simon, that Chelsea under Abramovich, very different beast to what they are now. And I'll ask John for his view in a moment. Well, we know how, don't we, in part, because they cheated. Well, that's the question I was going to ask you. Go on, Simon. How can you say we cheated? What do you mean, John? What are you talking about? They've just been fined£10 million, done a deal to overcome all the challenges that they had by doing deals behind agents' backs. You've accepted that deal. Previous owner, Roman hasn't accepted that deal.

27:54It's new ownership that's accepted that. Oh, pack it in, John. Don't be silly. Simon, if Chelsea... The premise of that deal is that Eden Hazard, as we know, was transferred to Chelsea rather than Man United because the agent was paid a back-hander by Chelsea. That's not controversial, that's a fact. And Simon, that didn't go on when you was in charge, no? No, but we're not talking about what I was doing when I was in charge. Oh, I think we might be. We're talking about what Chelsea were doing and how Chelsea have achieved things. It doesn't matter what everyone else is doing. It only matters because it's Chelsea.

28:19No, no, it doesn't matter because it's Chelsea. It doesn't matter if it was Man City, Palace, Arsenal, whoever it was. It's the premise of the game. But my point is, we're about to conceptualise an ideal that Roman Abramovich came into English football and changed the direction of travel for the betterment of it. And there's an argument to suggest he didn't. 100 % did. Well, for you guys, yeah, because you got paid nicely out of it. He's been the best owner in Premier League in the last 20 years. Facts.

28:41Piers Morgan:Well, do you care about... Arsenal were dominating, Man United were dominating, Chelsea come in and shook it up to what it is today. And that's facts. Do you care, John, that a lot of, obviously, his money came from being one of Putin's cronies and that's how he made himself so rich? Piers, I'm wise enough to know not to get involved in politics in the last few months. You know, it's interesting because, Simon, we're looking at a situation where Manchester City are still facing 115 charges. Sure. Should they be found guilty of those? You know, what happens to the league titles that they won in that period?

29:16Well, I don't think you can rewrite history and any more than you can take Chelsea back to the situation where they can unwind what they've done to get around the circumstances where they've been able to buy players out of the system and do as they want. Look, it's an unfortunate look for the Premier League. It's an unfortunate challenge. It's taken far too long. It's badly engaged in terms of the Premier League setting a panel together without any timelines as to how long this should have been adjudicated for. But I don't think you can subsequently start rewriting history, taking away Premier League titles.

29:45Then you start talking about teams that could have been relegated or teams that could have been further up the pyramid. all of a sudden you're unwinding the whole fabric of football. Now, some would say maybe it should be that way. But I think, realistically speaking, I have my own views about Manchester City and until these circumstances are found to be borne out one way or the other, I think it's probably wise, given the litigious nature of their position, to keep your own counsel about it. But, no, I don't think you can strip the titles from them. John, what are you thinking? Sorry, John. Simon, do you think there's any reason why Pep's leaving?

30:15Well, I had that thought, John. Because he always said, didn't he? and I always used to get very annoyed with the media when they put him on the spot asking him questions about the finances because he's not a bloody finance director, he's a football manager. And he couldn't answer these questions, but he did say at the time, I'm of the mindset that there's nothing to be seen here, but if there is, I'm off. Now, we must be, irrespective if they write the doomsday book quicker, we must be at the point where these charges are going to find an outcome. And I would imagine pretty soon, so there will be a real irony if it is found that Man City are guilty and we remain to be seen.

30:46Piers Morgan:By the way, if they are, they'll be relegated, right? They will be relegated. No, they won't. If they found good of 115 charges... No, they won't. Absolutely, they won't. 115 charges, Piers, it's not 115 individual charges, it's a replication of the same charge, because if you produce the same information in eight years of different accounts, you multiply it by eight. But it's not really 115 charges, and the Premier League should never have bought 115 charges, they should have focused on five or six. But I very, very much doubt, Piers, because there's too much money involved, There's too much reputational damage to the Premier League for a team like Man City to be bounced out of it.

31:19This isn't Italian football.

31:20Piers Morgan:John, I've had a few Chelsea fans gobbing off about Arsenal not winning the Champions League, conveniently ignoring the state of your own great club that I know you love so much, where you came 10th in the Premier League, won't be playing any European football apart from on a beach in Marbella. It's generally become a bit of a laughing stock over at Chelsea. He spent a billion pounds on players. I don't think any of whom would have got on Arsenal's bench in the Champions League final. What is going on at Chelsea? It's not been ideal, and it's been probably the worst season I've seen since I've retired, to be honest.

31:57And I think ownership and sporting directors went down the role of bringing in players that were young, maybe hungry. But my view has always been you need experience around these group of young players, and I still think we desperately need that. So I'm hoping with Alonso coming in, Piers, after the disastrous season we've had, I think he's a really good signing. And actually, I don't think we could have got any better in the position we're in. So I think he's got a great football brain. I've come across him and played against him for many years. I think he's going to sign some experienced players.

32:28I think if he gets the freedom to go and buy it and sign the players he wants, we could move it in a direction that's better for us. Do I think we're competing for the Premier League? No, I don't. I think we're a couple of years away from that. But out of all the bad signings that there's been, there's also been some really good ones as well.

32:45Piers Morgan:And if you were Arsenal and you've just made, looks like,£850 million this season, our record revenue, and you wanted to win the Champions League next season and retain the Premier League, who are you buying? When you look at Arsenal's squad, obviously amazing depth, but what are you looking for to get us over that final line, do you think?

33:11Piers Morgan:As if he cares. Well, I want him to pretend to care, at least. I think he's frozen. I lost you there. He froze just at the right time. I thought you'd frozen in horror, the idea of us winning everything again. But if you were... Who should Arsenal be looking to sign? I actually feel you guys are missing out on a top striker. That's right. That's going to get you 25, possibly 30 goals a season. You look at all the best sides over the last 20 years. Omri done it. Rooney done it. Drogba. Every team had that one player up front that produced those goals. Who would you try and get if you were Arsenal?

33:42Piers Morgan:Harry Kane. That would be unbelievable. Yes, Harry Kane. What a signing. He would be the best in Saul Campbell. I'm actually not sure. I'm not sure who would want to go to Arsenal. I think that's more of the issue. Well, I would imagine everybody wants to join the champions, John. I think the problem is going to be more at your end, Sunshine. Worryingly, I think you guys for the next two or three years have got an opportunity to dominate. I agree. I actually think if we get a great... I think we need a great left-sided attacking player. I think we need a great quick striker that's the type you're categorising.

34:17Piers Morgan:And I actually think... And I'm interested in what you think. I thought the best midfield pairing Arsenal have ever had was Petit and Vieira. And if we got a left-sided version of Petit to go next to Rice, we could be just completely dominant. Yeah, I agree. How good is Declan Rice? He covers every plate. He's incredible. Yeah. He's incredible. He played, I mean, we played 61 games, I think it was, in the end, which was something like 30 % more than PSG. Never mind anything else. Someone like Rice, who played in pretty much every game, has played so much more football than anyone else on that pitch in that final.

34:51Yes, you see all the thoughts with this generation. It'll probably be they're not robust enough. They're not a little bit old school. Declan is that in a nutshell. And I think he gives you that. And playing those games, I think he should be Arsenal captain for me. I think he's the man that needs the armband. I think Arsenal are moving in the direction. We'll be better for it with him in charge.

35:10Piers Morgan:It's very interesting you say that, because I have said that. And I like Odegaard as a person. I think he did, obviously, a massively important goal when he laid on Trossard. In fact, if he didn't have that, maybe he wouldn't have won the league. So I've got a lot of time for him. But I think Declan Rice is the next captain of Arsenal and England. And it is surprising to many Arsenal fans he's not already our captain. Yeah, I think both will happen in the next couple of years, for sure. Before we let you go, John, because you've got a flight to catch, and we're going to have many more of these to viewers who are watching our first World Cup Uncentred, two questions for you.

35:44The first one, I want to compare,

35:47Piers Morgan:and I'll get your input as well on this, Simon, I want to compare the golden generation of which you were a part, the 2016, I want to compare it to today's team, England team, and see how many of today's might get in a combined 11. So let's go through it quickly. Paul Robinson against Jordan Pickford. Pickford. Ashley Cole v Nico O 'Reilly. Ashley Cole. You against Mark Gahey. Me. Rio Ferdinand against Urzi Konsa. Rio. Gary Neville against Rhys James. Rhys James. Owen Hargreaves against Elliot Anderson. Elliot Anderson. Joe Cole against Marcus Rashford. Joe Cole. Frank Lampard against Declan Rice.

36:38You've done me bad. I wanted Dex in the team. Well, pick him then. He'll understand.

36:45Piers Morgan:Put your friendship to one side. Come on, go Dex in my team. Are you going Lampard? I'm going Lamps. Stephen Gerard v G. Bellingham. Stevie G. David Beckham against Bakaya Saka.

37:04Beckham.

37:05Piers Morgan:You hesitated. Yeah, I thought about it, yeah. It was worth the thought. This is a great one, actually. Wayne Rooney against Harry Kane. I actually think Wayne's the best ever England player for me. I think Harry can surpass that. So I'm going to stick with Wazza for now, but I think Harry's got an opportunity to go and surpass that. Very interesting. Simon, would you deviate from anything you've heard there? Not especially. I think if you were actually watching me, I was mouthing the same answers a lot of them you'll get from John because they're his Chelsea mates. But also, in amongst it, are sensible decisions.

37:39I don't argue with football players about what happens on the field. I argue with them about what happens off it. So I don't think there's anything particularly controversial. I think you can debate about Beckham because Beckham doesn't just bring that wonderful right foot. He brought a leadership quality onto the field. No-one could have scored a goal like Beckham scored against Greece at Old Trafford. Only Beckham could do that sort of thing. he brings that sort of value into a side. So I think most of what John has said, I would concur with. John, who's going to win the World Cup? I'm going to go France or England for me.

38:07Piers Morgan:You can't have two. One or the other. And we will play this back at the end. I know we will. OK, I'm going to go France. Simon? No, Pearce, because I think that's a bit reductive. Come on, you big wuss. No, no, no, it's not getting sitting on the fence. You're literally sitting on the fence? No, because the circumstances in which England play, and I'm more interested in England performing in this tournament and beating sides that we haven't beaten previously. The reasons why he brought a Thomas Tuchel in is not to do what Gareth did, which was to fall at hurdles where we couldn't, on paper, potentially beat these sides.

38:40I want to look at it and say, when we play the French, like we did in 2022 when we could have beaten them, but we weren't bold enough to stick it on them when we had them on the back foot, I'm more interested in seeing that. Now, if we get into those sort of shapes, then I think we can win the World Cup. And I think Tuchel is the difference between us potentially winning the World Cup and not having a particularly significant one.

39:00Piers Morgan:You've just spent about five minutes trying to answer a simple question. Because it's more nuanced. John was just unequivocal. I realise in your little click-baity binary world, we have to go down this compare and contrast stuff. No, I just know mine. I'm also agree with Simon's points there. Yeah, you agree with his points, but he's sitting on the fence. It's nuanced. No, I don't have to. Are those splinters hurting you? No, not at all. I'm quite happy to have a nuanced perspective on it. Give me even a range of teams that you think. I think it will be either the English, the French or the Spanish.

39:24I don't think it will be the Brazilians or the Argentinians or the Portuguese. I'm happy to go there. Now, if the English get the Mexicans in Mexico, which is likely to happen in the quarterfinals, that's a hell of a game. And John will speak to that. And obviously, these are big players. They play in pressure, but the heat, the temperature, the attitude, all of these things come to pass. But the best version of England, I think, can achieve winning the World Cup. But it's got to be the very best version of England, Piers, with maybe the French or the Spanish 10 % off. If you've got that, then you've got your nuance, and then you've got your opportunity for England to win, which is what I'm focused on and what I'm interested in.

39:55I'm not interested in anybody else winning.

39:56Piers Morgan:I would love England to win. I'm actually going to go for Brazil. And the reason I say that is I think Ancelotti is, for me, the most underrated, greatest manager candidate of all time. I think his record for so long has been unbelievable. Well, he paid for him. Of course, I was going to ask John. Yeah, I mean, you know, we've obviously... I want to talk about Mourinho as well, but, you know, you talk about Ferguson and Benger and all these top managers, Mourinho and so on. Ancelotti's record is incredible. And if any man could actually become the first foreign manager to win a World Cup for another team that's not his own country of birthright, I think it could be him.

40:36Piers Morgan:And if you look at that Brazil team, they've got so much talent and the conditions are going to suit them. They won in Mexico, didn't they, Brazil? Listen, they've got a great squad. More importantly, you touched on it, they've got Carlo. They didn't win in Mexico? Yeah, 56 years ago. That's all right. Oh, that's relevant then. I stated as fact and you've just shaken your head. No, I'm just saying that's relevant 56 years later. I'm just saying... Carlo and Jose are the best two managers. Certain teams in the altitude, altitude will kick in. Go on, John, what's your thought? Carlo and Jose are the best two managers I've worked with.

41:06Carlo's man management skills, and I think, looking at that Brazil side, there's big personalities. We see the Neymar scenario recently. I think if there's anyone who can deal with that and handle that situation, it's him. The rapport and the relationship he has with his players is the best by a mile. And I think, listen, regardless of his tactical cuteness and awareness and being at the big stages in Champions Leagues and coached all over the world, I think he offers something hugely, especially to that Brazil side.

41:36Piers Morgan:I also think, you know, you've got great attacking players, obviously, but you've got the likes of Gabriel at the back with a massive point to prove. Because even though he's joyous at winning the league, you know, he's gone through what you went through, John, and I don't say that to be glib. but you've been through the agony of missing a penalty that decides a Champions League final. What is that moment like? Horrible, Piers. I felt for him after the game. I'd done something on my TikTok and kind of mentioned him and stuff. And it's a horrible place, to be honest. It's really lonely. I think the best thing for him now, he's got the World Cup a couple of weeks after that where he can fully focus on this and stuff.

42:10But it's a moment that I had in 2008 against Man United that still haunts me today. I still wake up in the middle of the night and kind of go, oh, yeah, it did happen. It's one of those moments... Really? Even now? Honestly, many years later, I've got all these lovely trophies behind me. It's often the ones that get away that really hurt you.

42:30Piers Morgan:Yeah, it's so fascinating, that. Because, you know, you hear everyone is an expert in penalties suddenly, but I always say to them, I said it to them, my sons were raging about it, why was he taking one and so on? And they love him, they love Gabriel. But I said, because you've got to understand, every top professional footballer can obviously score a penalty, right? They're obviously highly skilled on a ball. But no one can quite factor in until you have to do it what that walk is like when you're about to take a penalty with maybe a billion people watching. And if you score, you're a hero for life.

43:03Piers Morgan:And if you miss for that, you're a villain for life. And the pressure... I mean, when you were walking up to take that penalty, what was going through your mind? It was like I was in an empty stadium, that the stadium just goes silent. It's really weird. And then I was very confident walking up and then I obviously slipped because of the rain and stuff like that. But you just can't replicate that situation no matter how many times you do it. And also there's circumstances that happen. Didier got sent off with eight minutes to go in our Champions League final. Didier would have been the one taking that fifth penalty.

43:37There's also, you see it after the game as well. When the players get together, you'll see the manager asking the players who wants to take a penalty. There'll be one or two within that group who will go. I'm not keen to take one here. So they come off the list straight away. So maybe a Gabriel, that didn't happen with Chelsea, but maybe a Gabriel then has to come from number seven to number five.

43:57Piers Morgan:Well, he apparently, according to Arteta, he volunteered to take it. But I could see the problem emerging through extra time because all our main penalty takers were getting substituted because they were knackered. So Saka came off, Odegaard came off, Havertz came off. And I was thinking, if this goes to penalties, we're going to be in trouble. I've seen it over the years where managers ask the players and the players go, I'm not too confident here. And at the time you go, that's a bit weird. But after retirement, you can fully respect that because you're seeing how much pressure is on these guys to do it.

44:28Looking at England, though, we've got some great penalty takers. So if it does go that far, I'm very confident in the group we've got in terms of attacking players coming on the pitch as well.

44:37Piers Morgan:And John, you've got to go. You've kindly said a bit longer than I hoped you would. I don't want you missing a plane. But just quickly, Mourinho is going to be announced as the Real Madrid manager today because Perez has won the election to remain as president, obviously. Massive return for Mourinho. You won eight trophies under him. Is he still as good as he was, Mourinho? 100%. I'm not sure if he's as active on the training pitch, but in terms of the meetings and the debriefs he does on the opposition, I don't think there's anyone better in the world. So you speak to players as they get older, these managers, they come away from being on the grass a little bit more.

45:18I think Ferguson always said that over time as well. So in terms of his presence on the pitch, on the training day-to-day, probably not, but believe me, and I've felt it a few times, Thursday, Friday, two days before game day and game day, you do not want to be on his bad side, that's for sure.

45:34Piers Morgan:Have you messaged him at all in the last day or so? I have. We've had a few exchanges. Anything you can share with the group? Not particularly, no.

45:47Piers Morgan:What's his general mindset like, would you say? I think excited, Piers. I think excited to be back at a top club. Ben Fico was probably a step away from that. And also, there's some big characters. These managers love to deal with these big characters. And everyone's kind of going, is Bape going to be in trouble with Mourinho? They could hit it off. They won. They could hit it off. And he could find something in each other that just kicks him on, maybe. John, we'll let you get your flight. Thank you very much for doing the first World Cup Uncensored. We'll be back doing many more of these through the World Cup.

46:21Piers Morgan:It's going to be a lot of fun. We've got everyone going. I think your insight is almost unparalleled, so thank you very much. Cheers, guys. Thank you. Simon, me and you now, just to round things off, because what I didn't want to get into with John necessarily was the sort of politics of it, because he's already said he doesn't like talking about the politics. It's going to be hard to ignore the politics. One thing that struck me, and I remember that... Because a friend of mine, Gary Danica, when he did his little homily at the start of the BBC coverage in the Qatar World Cup, did a little speech on air at the start about human rights record of Qatar and so on.

46:54Piers Morgan:Do you think anyone from the BBC is going to do the same about America's human rights record or Mexico's in particular? No, not about the human rights record. Is there a double standard there? Well, yes and no, because if you're comparing human rights records, then you're arguing about the current state of the affairs inside America and what they're doing with their immigration policy and making that the overlaying aspect. What we were arguing about, and I thought you did it very well, excellently, I might add, when you debated Emily Maitlis and put her back in her box because of her particular brand of nonsense, in my view, about the hypocrisy, about the double standards.

47:26And that's what was being exhibited by the Gary Linekers of the world. It's very easy to virtue signal. And this is the same people that were working for Al Jazeera back in the day. So the hypocrisy knows no bounds. The people that were becoming offended and affronted by what the cultural differences between one country's viewpoint and another's. Every country, as you know, and you've rehearsed this many times in other shows that you do, are at different stages in their curve. And we are in a position to be sitting there judging people, because in 1966, when we had the World Cup, homosexuality was outlawed in this country.

47:52So we can all have our little opinions. Now, as far as the Americans are concerned, there will be opinions, because that's the nature of the beast. The media will want to turn the World Cup into other things rather than just football. And football often gets hijacked anyway. So it makes itself a sort of a passenger vessel for other people's opinions. So no, to answer your question, Piers, I don't think we'll see the same challenges in terms of what I consider to be. I know it's much overused expression and we both use it virtue signaling. It was a very low hanging fruit to take moral outrage about the outlooks and dispositions of the Qataris.

48:26And the players had the same view, except, of course, when it came on top and they had a consequence for it, then they fell away, which is often the case. and no, I don't think we'll see the BBC stopping a broadcast, not showing the opening ceremony and all of this sort of stuff.

48:37Piers Morgan:Right. President Trump is bound to put himself in the thick of things. Yeah, your friend. Yeah. And, you know, he's bound to because it's a massive global stage and he's a president of the United States. Because he is what he is, yeah. That's what he does. And he is the beast he is. Gianni Infantino has, I think, played Trump pretty well. He's done stuff which has got a lot of criticism, giving him a peace prize and so on. But you kind of have to slightly play the game with Trump, don't you? Has Infantino done this correctly? Well, I think so. It's like, you know, when, with due respect, and this observation might cause outrage amongst people, I thought Zelensky going into the White House and dictating to Trump at that particular time what he will or won't do in front of the cameras was a fool's errand.

49:12You might want to do that offline, but you don't do it to the most powerful man in the world in his own front room. And I think Infantino has looked at it and gone, whilst I have my own views about the opaqueness and the lack of transparency and what kind of organisation FIFA is, I think you're in America, and the biggest noise at this moment in time is Trump. however he divides opinion, whatever the state of the American society is, you're there and you cannot get around Trump. So you might as well try to bring him with you. You might as well carpool with him. And if he is, you know him, you can speak to him more eloquently than I have.

49:42I've met him a couple of times at boxing matches over the years. And if this endless sort of observation of him is he's an eternal narcissist, I think it's a bit more complicated than that. It is. I think he's a far more nuanced character than that. and I think that Infantino, who I have mixed emotions about, I think his most recent understatement is the size and scale of thought, but we talked about it being an industry that's five trillion, I think it's bigger than that. So I think when you've gone into America...

50:05Piers Morgan:I actually like him, Infantino, and I like the fact he's trying to make... Well, I don't like his organisation. No, but I think he's tried to make it and has been successful to a degree... Maybe. ..in making it a lot more transparent. Maybe. No, I'm not sure that's right, Piers. You don't think so? I don't think there's any evidence for that. I think the same as before, and if you look at the organisations that are spending their time watching FIFA, they'll see something different. But it'll be interesting to see when he trots out... What he trots out is his opening speech, because last time it was, I'm an Arab, I'm gay, I'm this, I'm this, that and the other.

50:29Piers Morgan:Which I thought was quite funny. I mean, I got the point he was doing. But was he going after irony or that? Or was he playing to all the angles? He was just saying, look, we're all things here. We're an open book. Why not say that? Maybe, maybe. I think you have to... It's a unity speech, really. Well, yes and no. I think there's an element of hypocrisy behind it and an element of making statements that didn't need to be made. But clearly you aren't all those things. But the fact is that FIFA are a better organisation than they were under Sepp Blatter, but that's not going to be very difficult, is it?

50:55Because if you set yourself a low standard... I agree, I agree. How difficult is that? So, for all intents and purposes, to answer your question, yes, I think, you know, playing to the Trump gallery in the way that you can achieve the outcomes that you want to make sure that the world's biggest show, and be under no illusion, despite what the Americans want to have us believe, that the NFL is the world's biggest show, when the World Cup comes into town, It is the biggest show. It will dwarf any audiences that any other sport has around the world. And with that will come Trump. With that will come opinions and observations.

51:27So if Infantino can manage that and then sail off into the sunset with$15 billion, job done, right?

51:32Piers Morgan:It will be the most lucrative World Cup ever. A lot of ordinary fans are saying they've been priced out of this World Cup. Yeah. Well, I mean, look, what is the objective of FIFA? It's a not-for-profit organisation, right? Well, that's an interesting question, where they are deliberately trying to make as much money as possible. But what is their purpose, Piers? Well, they feed it back into the game. So, obviously, they do that. But if you price out the ordinary fan in the process, is that not a self-defeating argument? Well, it depends if the supply is exceeded by the demand or vice versa. We don't have any evidence of that, that that's going to be the case.

52:05Now, we'll see challenges where you'll see empty seats when you've got Saudi Arabia paying Cap Verde, right? But that's the nature of expanding a tournament to 48 teams. You're going to get some rubbers in there that no-one wants to watch and the broadcasters couldn't give a monkey's a bell. But the bottom line is, if you look at it and say, there's 6.5 million tickets, the world's population is 9 billion, 6 billion of football fans, so 0.01 % of the people around the world can watch football in a World Cup. It's already a rarefied beast. And we know, what did you expect? I'm a pragmatist, Piers.

52:31I'd like to live in this idealistic world where we all have rattles and the factories come out at 3 o 'clock and everyone can go and watch the football, right? But it's moved on. These players are flying around and play private jets. Football is a business perpetuated by finance. And so why would you expect anything different? You put...

52:44Piers Morgan:And if the grassroots do benefit enormously from this... But this is the question. That is the bigger picture. Well, I mean, you should be all for this, because your former mentor, albeit you turned on him, once upon a time, Arsene Wenger, is a major acolyte for the World Cup and all it brings into play. And also using FIFA's money to build around the world, because he believes that if you get more money from FIFA and you proliferate it around the world, you can open up other parts of the world that can develop players, it will make the cost of football potentially more economic, because there'd be a greater proliferation, as I said, of players coming into the ecosystem from the Africas and places of that nature.

53:18Whatever that quite bears out, we'll see.

53:20Piers Morgan:It's going to be exciting, though. Should be. Should be. I mean, you've lived in America. I've lived in America. I think everything about America. I look at America when I was over there a couple of years ago, and when I put Palace in there in 2006, I thought it was interesting. When I was a business over here that I sold for 100 million quid, I went over to America and thought, if I'd have built this business in America, I'd have made 500 million quid. And the one thing I loved about being in America last time I was there was the fact that the owners are more important than the bloody players.

53:43Piers Morgan:And I like that one, Piers. Do you know what? The thing about the Americans is they do stuff well and they do big stuff really well. They do it to scale. And they will want to show to the world that they can do this bigger and better than anybody's ever done it. And they probably will. I'm excited about it. And there'll be some purists that don't like halftime shows. There'll be some purists that don't like certain aspects of it. But like we now know, Piers, this is an entertainment business as much as it is a sport now. I agree. And you know what? I went to the Terence Crawford fight in L.A. last summer when Eminem did the halftime show.

54:12Piers Morgan:And I didn't know he was going to be doing it. And I thought, Eminem is fantastic. I did half an hour, loved it, then watched a great fight. I see no problem in being entertained by music and then having a great sporting event as well in conjunction. Why not? So, given that you really admire the way Madonna looks, are you going to be that happy that she's sashaying around at 107 years of age in the halftime show? I think she should be put out to Christ. Yeah, absolutely. Simon, we've run out of time on our first one. You and I are going to be meeting again in New York next week. Indeed we are.

54:42Piers Morgan:For another episode of World Cup Uncensored. I hope you've enjoyed it. If you have enjoyed it, there'll be plenty more where this came from. We are going to be the most opinionated show on the airwaves through the World Cup. But I think you've probably heard that we're going to be fair and considered about it as well. And respectful to each other's right-up opinions, even if Simon is invariably wrong with it.