‘Ukraine Is A Corrupt MESS’ Trump Finalizes Russia Peace Deal | With Bob Amsterdam

29:31And I think that's being missed by the Ukrainians. Because whatever money, whatever assets, whatever arms you want to give Ukraine, they need the people to fight. And dragging people to the front the way it's happening today, while tens and hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians are deserting, is not going to achieve a better result than you may get today through constructive negotiations. Bill Browder, what's your response to that? Well, I've known Bob for a long time. He was actually one of the most avid anti-Putin lawyers in Russia when he was representing Mikhail Hordokovsky, who was sentenced to prison.

30:15And so he's kind of done 180 degree here. every word that he said is words that should be used to describe Russia. Russia is a terrible cesspit of corruption. I believe that Putin and the thousand people around him have stolen a trillion dollars from the Russian state. Russia has sent in to their death or disability more than 1.2 million young men. I don't think those people want to be dying on the front. Russia is the country that invaded a peaceful, sovereign neighbor. And most importantly, and what I think that Bob is glossing over, is what happens when Ukraine gets occupied by Russian soldiers?

31:04Well, it's not a hypothetical. We saw what happened. There are several towns that were occupied that were then liberated. Butcha. Let me talk about Butcha. What happened to the people of Bucha when they were occupied by Russian soldiers? All the women were raped. The men were then taken, had their hands tied behind their back, shot and buried in shallow graves, and the children were kidnapped. That is why, that is the, what happens when Russia occupies Ukraine. And so why are the Ukrainians fighting? Ukrainians don't want to be, or of course, Bob is right. Nobody wants to be at war, but it's a hell of a lot better being at war than to be occupied by Russia.

31:51And he's wrong about Ukrainians' will to fight. And he's wrong about the Europeans supporting Ukraine. Ukraine has asked for help from Europe. And Europe is spending their money. Europe continues to spend their money. And the only reason why we need more money for Ukraine now is because America has stepped out. Donald Trump has stopped supplying money to Ukraine. And so what do we do about that? Well, Russia has$300 billion of frozen assets that are held in the West. Most of them are in Europe. How does Ukraine continue to pay for its defense? Well, some of that money should come from the frozen assets.

32:27And so, I mean, I think the whole thing is sort of twisted on its head. And I'm pretty surprised, Bob, that you would be taking such a anti-democracy, anti-freedom position when you were the lawyer representing Mikhail Hortokoski against Putin back in the day. Today's show is sponsored by Oxford Natural, makers of the Optimum Day and Optimum Night all-natural supplements. Thousands of Brits and Americans are already taking them with incredible results. Optimum Day boosts your energy and supports weight loss throughout the day. Optimum Night helps you relax and get deep, refreshing sleep. They have countless success stories, including from some very familiar faces.

33:06England legend Michael Owen, who lost 40 pounds. AFTV's Robbie, who lost more than 100 pounds. To watch their full stories and many more, scan the QR code on your screen or visit OxfordNatural.com slash peers. And here's the best part. Use the code peers and get 70 % off your first order. Get 70 % off with the code peers. Let me tell you this, Bill. My position's completely consistent. I'm not here saying a word or disagreeing with you about Russia. That's not my point. What I'm saying is you and many others are blind to the reality in Ukraine. I've been to Ukraine. I represent this persecuted church in Ukraine where priests are beaten and churches are seized.

33:54I've been attacked by the secret police in Ukraine because I've been there trying to fight for democracy in Ukraine and freedom of religion. All the freedoms we hold dear. I haven't changed. The West has changed. We have blinded our journalists. Our journalists don't report about corruption. They don't report about... No, no, this has nothing to do... Putin is unjustified. Russia is more corrupt. That's not the point. The point is the reality. It's not a matter of who's better or who's worse. Ukraine is losing an entire generation. If you're ready to have British or American soldiers go there, that's one thing.

34:37But now we are sacrificing Ukrainian. In fact, members of the church I represent are in the front lines, and they're dying. And the point of the matter is, all I'm saying is... And why are they dying? Because Putin is killing them. Well, hold on. But so has been a corrupt, incompetent government in Ukraine that hasn't benefited from the largesse of the West. And we need to audit them, and we need to work with them, and we need to find a constructive solution. Just being naysayers isn't going to do it, Bill. Just saying how bad the Russians are isn't going to do it. We've sanctioned them in Europe 19 times, and they've still taken more money and energy than we've managed to freeze.

35:28and taking frozen money without a court order is a dangerous breach of international law. You keep wanting to access frozen money, get a court order. Don't violate rule of law and fundamental rights. I don't care whose rights. Don't violate those to get at that money because the European Union doesn't want to spend the money. The sovereignty of Ukraine to take over their territory. I'm not saying that. One wrong... Listen, as a lawyer, one wrong doesn't make a right. You want to go to court, go to The Hague and get an order, that's fine. But until that's done, you've got no justification for taking that money.

36:10Otherwise, it's theft. Of course you do. It's not theft. Russia has caused a trillion dollars of damage to Ukraine. We've frozen$300 billion of Russian money. That money is owed by Russia to Ukraine. That money is Ukraine's money. Says who? Get us a court order and I'd be the first one to applaud it. But until there's some judge somewhere that says you're right, you have no ability to steal that money. What you're doing is destroying the international legal system by just taking money because Bill Browder and like-minded people think that's the way to save the European taxpayer. It's not. Let me bring in General Clark, if I may, to respond to that.

36:49GIVING RUSSIA THAT MONEY, THAT TERRAIN, THAT LAND IN THIS KIND OF AN ARRANGEMENT, YOU REALLY ARE DESTROYING THE INTERNATIONAL LEGAL SYSTEM. I THINK BY NOT RECOGNIZING RUSSIA AS AN AGGRESSOR STATE AND NOT UNDERSTANDING WHEN A DEMOCRACY IS UNDER THREAT, OF COURSE CERTAIN DEMOCRATIC FREEDOMS ARE BRIDGED. IT'S HAPPENED IN EVERY COUNTRY. IT HAPPENED IN THE U.K. IT'S HAPPENED IN THE U.S. IT'S HAPPENED IN EVERY COUNTRY THAT'S UNDER THREAT. And that's necessary to fight back against foreign aggression. And in this case, you have a state that clearly violated international law. And not only that, it violated its own promises in the Budapest assurances to Ukraine when Ukraine gave up its weapons.

37:36So how can you make an agreement and accept promises from a group like this? The answer is you can't. So you're holding the West to a certain standard. YOU DON'T CARE WHICH JUDGE, YOU DON'T CARE WHICH COURT. IT DOESN'T MATTER AS LONG AS IT'S A COURT. NO, WHAT I'M SAYING IS. JUST A MINUTE. THE COURT OF WORLD OPINION SAYS RUSSIA IS THE AGGRESSOR STATE. THEY VIOLATE. LET'S BE CLEAR. IT'S A PATRIOT CRESSION SINCE WORLD WAR II IN EUROPE. YOU CAN'T TOLERATE THAT. YOU CAN'T APPEASE IT. YOU CAN'T ACCEPT IT. AND YOUR STANDARD OF, YES, IT'S TERRIBLE THAT PEOPLE ARE DYING. You know how this war could be stopped?

38:16Instantly. All Putin has to do is say stop. No agreements? Just stop. Stop shooting. Stop launching those people. Just walk away from it. It'll stop instantly. You don't need an agreement. You don't need a court. Just stop. You want your money back, Russia? Stop the fighting. Then we'll talk. This is what the Europeans said. Get a ceasefire first. If Putin wants to deal with international law, he's got to comply with it. Otherwise, he has no right to access international law, in my view. Well, let me ask you a question of Henry again here. What is the mood in Russia? Because Russia's taken enormous losses too, right?

38:56It's become a global pariah in many parts of the world, not all, but many. Is there ongoing large support for this or not? Well, I guess it depends on your optics, how you view Russia. If you, in Russia, we have absolutely no sense that we have a sense of global isolation or whatever was told about Russia in these years because Russia is a place where you have global summits. We have meetings with greatest leaders, both in Russia and Russia's president meets them in different countries of the world. We participate in different diplomatic events. And one of them is meeting with Donald Trump, the president of the U.S.

39:43in Alaska. So I don't have—I don't think that anyone in Russia has a sense that you are isolated or something like that. Secondary, there were some facts which were told by my colleagues which I would like to comment on. First of all, in Russia, the soldiers are not mobilized in contrast to Ukraine. They are signing voluntary contracts, and we have the hundreds of thousands of them who sign contracts. That's their will. They go to the Special Military Operation by signing an official contract with the Minister of Defense. That's first of all. Secondary, the problem with the corruption in Ukraine's government is not the sort of, as they like to say, of Russian provocation or something.

40:26It was actually talked about and was witnessed by the so-called National Anti-Corruption Bureau of Ukraine, which is an organization which Mr. Zelensky was trying to close several months ago and severe protests started in Ukraine against that. And usually they say, well, there is a rumor that the bureau is financed by the Western countries and that bureau has fixed that the closest allies of Mr. Zelensky are corrupted, But they are not stealing Ukrainian money. They are stealing the American, European money, which was actually dedicated to their country to fight Russian aggression, et cetera, et cetera, as it was said before.

41:16And so that's a thing which not Russia should think about, but the European countries and the United States. And I think that's one of the reasons why the United States are so anti the idea of continuing the financing of Ukraine, because they see that there is no result. And that's the final point I would like to make. People might have any position they want. But, you know, what I usually hear from the European countries in these days, they say, okay, we don't like Donald Trump's proposal. So what we want to propose is that the United States should deploy their troops in Ukraine. Russia should pay Ukraine from their frozen assets, et cetera.

42:00But, I mean, and Ukrainians should continue to die on the battlefield. That's what usually the ones who are criticizing Donald Trump, that's what they are usually saying. Americans should do this. Russians should do that. Ukrainians should do that. But I don't see what Europeans are going to do in this perspective. And each time someone says that this peace plan is terrible, it doesn't have this point or that point or third or fourth, well, okay, what's the alternative? The alternative is the continuation of the special military operation. We're fine with that. If you were attentive enough, you would see that Russia was not the one to try to hold on to this peace proposal.

42:43Russia's president has said that, okay, that's fine, we may try. But if no, we are going to continue the special military operation. So if the European countries don't like the agreement, maybe they should listen to their favorite, Mr. Zelensky, who had a public speech right the day of the confirmation of the main point of the agreement. He has said, addressing the European countries, he told them, please understand that maybe we are made of steel. But even the most strong metal might be somehow, I don't know, distorted or something. He has said that they have a very, very difficult choice here.

43:23And I don't understand why a president of a so-called sovereign country, as they are called, why he has to ask European countries to let him take this or that decision. If he's sovereign, then he should take the decision which corresponds to the national interest of his country most. And I see that Donald Trump, you may like him, you may not like him, but he really tries to find a way to make a deal with Russia as well. Because you should understand that this special military operation is not between the United States and Ukraine. It's not between the United States and the European Union. Russia is part of it.

44:02So I think it's obvious that if you want to sign an agreement, it should also include the national interests of Russia and position of Russia, because otherwise you could make an ideal agreement, which would be ideal for Ukraine, for the United States, for the European Union, but Russia would be against it, and then what's the use of it? Then the special military operation will continue. Okay, I mean, we should just call a war a war, by the way. This special military operation is a load of old baloney. It's a war. It's a war. I just want to ask General Clark, you know, my, as we've discussed before, I've lost a military, ex-military in my family.

44:38My brother was an army colonel for many years. And he said right at the start of this, you know, when I was saying Ukraine have to fight to the finish, they mustn't give an inch of land. I was being very gung-ho. And he just kept cautiously me saying, you realize that Russia won't lose this. However long it takes, they're not going to lose this war. That's the cold, hard reality on the battlefield. Are we now seeing that cold, hard reality slowly playing out? AND THEREFORE, ULTIMATELY, IS A DEAL, ALBEIT NOT A GREAT DEAL, BETTER THAN NO DEAL WITH WHAT MAY FOLLOW FROM THAT? SO YOU'RE ASKING ME? YES, GENERAL CLARK, YEAH.

45:16WHO HAS ALWAYS EXPECTED TO OUTLAST THE WEST? THE RUSSIANS ARE GREAT STUDENTS OF HISTORY. THEY KNOW HOW THIS WORKS FOR THE WEST. BASICALLY, WE GET TIRED AND GUYS LIKE BOB SAY, OH, THE KILLINGS, IT'S TOO GREAT. WE JUST CAN'T, WE CAN'T DO IT ANYMORE. YOU KNOW, I GO BACK TO WHAT WINSTON CHURCHILL'S SPEECH WAS AFTER DUNKERK. HE SAID WE 'LL FIGHT HIM ON THE BEACH, WE 'LL FIGHT HIM IN THE TOWNS, WE 'LL FIGHT HIM IN THE CITIES, WE 'LL FIGHT HIM IN THE FORESTS. CHURCHILL HAD A SPIRIT OF RESISTANCE AND A SPIRIT OF HEARTFELT ARDOR THAT MOTIVATED THE BRITISH PEOPLE. ZELENSKYY HAD THIS WHEN HE FIRST BEGAN TO SPEAK.

45:59BUT HE'S GETTING TIRED AND HE'S THE OTHER THING IS BEING BESET BY THESE CORRUPTION CHARGES. AND THERE ARE OTHER THINGS GOING ON FOR ZELENSKYY. HE'S UNDER A LOT OF PRESSURE FROM THE UNITED STATES. SO, BUT I THINK, I THINK IT'S UP TO THE WEST TO PROVE THAT MR. PUTIN IS WRONG. THAT THE WEST WITH SUPERIOR MANPOWER, SUPERIOR FINANCES, SUPERIOR MILITARY, SUPERIOR THAT'S WHAT WE 'LL BE OUTLAST RUSSIA. AND UNFORTUNATELY THAT'S WHAT THIS COMES DOWN TO. SO AT SOME POINT IF EUROPEAN STATEMENTS SAY, LOOK, ENOUGH IS ENOUGH IS ENOUGH. LET'S JUST GIVE IN TO PUTIN AND WE 'LL WALK AWAY FROM IT AND WE 'LL BE OUT OF OFFICE PRETTY SOON AND WE 'LL LET MY SUCCESSORS DEAL WITH IT.

46:49THAT'S THE STRENGTH THAT PUTIN BRINGS TO THIS BATTLE. AND IF WE BELIEVE IN OUR VALUES AND OUR DEMOCRACY, WE HAVE TO FIND A WAY TO PROVE PUTIN WRONG. THAT HE CANNOT OUTLAST US. HE CANNOT OUT INNOVATE US. HE CANNOT OUT CHALLENGE US. AND WE HAVE TO STAND STRONG ON THIS. IT'S THAT SIMPLE, PEARCE. AND SO PUTIN IS DETERMINED. LOOK, HE'S BEEN ON A 25-YEAR CAMPAIGN TO TAKE OVER UKRAINE FROM THE BEGINNING. HE KNOWS HE HAS TO HAVE UKRAINE. SO HE'S NOT GOING TO EASILY GIVE UP. SO THE ANSWER IS PUT THE MILITARY PRESSURE ON. WHERE ARE THOSE TOMAHAWK MISSILES? WHERE IS THE ADDITIONAL MILITARY ASSISTANCE? WHERE IS THE ADDITIONAL 155 AMMUNITION?

47:37WHERE ARE THE ADDITIONAL SMALL DO WITH SMALL ARMS AMMUNITION. YOU HAVE UKRAINIAN SOLDIERS OUT THERE WITHOUT SMALL ARMS AMMUNITION. REALLY. I MEAN, IT'S TERRIBLE WHAT'S HAPPENED. I DON'T BLAME JUST THE UNITED STATES. I BLAME OUR EUROPEAN ALLIES, TOO. BUT THE POINT IS, WE'RE IN A, WHAT MR. PUTIN CONSIDERS A WAR WITH NATO. HE DOESN'T CONSIDER IT A WAR THE UNITED STATES, THE WITH UKRAINE, AND IF NATO WANTS TO PRESERVE ITS FREEDOM AND ITS SECURITY Umbrella OVER EUROPE, IT HAS TO STAND UP. AND THE MEMBERS OF NATO HAVE TO SUPPORT UKRAINE AND PROVE WRONG. IT'S THAT SIMPLE. OKAY. STAND BY JUST FOR A FEW MINUTES, PANEL, AND GET YOUR REACTION TO A BRIEF INTERVIEW I'M ABOUT TO do with the former Ukrainian Prime Minister and Chair of the Kyiv Security Forum, Arseniy Yersenyuk.

48:30Thank you very much indeed for joining me. What is your response? Well, my pleasure, Piers, and you have an amazing panel. Yeah, it's been a fascinating conversation, actually. It covers all the issues, obviously. What is your reaction as a former Ukrainian Prime Minister to both the original 28-point plan, but also the European counter plan, and now Russia's reaction that even that plan doesn't work for them? Well here is the thing. This so-called peace plan it's not a peace plan. It's a con plan, it's a ploy plan, it's a sham plan, it's a deception plan and this is the same playbook that designated work criminal Putin always applied.

49:09So it has nothing to do with the peace. Initially this was a completely non-starter and dead on arrival. Period. Because this was a kind of crawling capitulation plan. And it's crystal clear for me that the author of this plan was the Russian asset of Ukrainian descent, Kirill Dmitriev. That's another spy. And well, we do have traitors in Ukraine too, and he fled Ukraine a few years ago. And no doubt that he traveled to DC, then he He was, as far as I remember, somewhere in Florida. And with the deception, he tried to sell this special military operation under KGB agent Putin to the entourage of President Trump.

50:01This is a copycat scenario. Look, the same happened in Anchorage. Completely the same. And that's the very reason why Putin is always insisting that there is a so-called mood of Anchorage, which is another BS, you know. So this kind of plan envisage only one thing, how to take over Ukraine. But as of now, as far as I see, after Geneva meeting, we are back to square one with our American allies. Let me reiterate once again, because I still believe that Americans are allies to Ukraine. And we got along with both Rubio, and I expect that President Trump will dig into details, and he will change his mind.

50:46And as of now, he's more flexible, he's more soft on these deadlines. It is important, Pierce, it's so important for all of us to be on the same page. I mean, Americans, Europeans, and Ukrainians. And I fully share the take of General Clark. We know each other for quite extensive period of time. So it's not just about Ukraine, Pierce. This is about the global security and Putin and China, they are going after NATO and Ukraine is a battlefield. We are at the forefront of this war. We are defending ourselves, but we are defending your security, your way of life, and we are actually defending an entire NATO.

51:31That's my answer, sir. What would you like to see happen?

51:41Look, there is no other way rather than to exert an additional pressure on Putin. In the best case scenario, we can be on the same page with Americans. Because I mean we, Europeans, the European Union, Ukraine, and the US, as we are allies, and we represent the free world. So if we hammer out a joint position on the realistic peace plan, the next step would be to press on Russia, because there is no other way to convince Russia, to accept this kind of so-called peace deal. And my God feeling is that this designated war criminal, he's just playing for time. He's dragging his feet. The main idea appears of that plan was first to circumvent sanctions and to postpone the decision of the European Union to use Russian sovereign assets as a collateral for this reparation law.

52:40And actually, as of now, they've achieved some progress. I mean, Russians. But once again, if we are on the same page, and it seems that the situation is much better than it was a few days ago, if we craft a new peace proposal, a real one, and if we press on Putin and China, and I want to reiterate once again, China, because Putin is just a ram, you know, he's just a puppet in this big, very huge game of a new geopolitical shift that China is trying to manipulate. So in this case, we can get durable peace. But it all depends on our political will, and we have a lot of tools, I mean, we as a free world.

53:35Ammunition, financial support, long-range capabilities, secondary sanctions, very strong economy, very strong military, very strong financial system. So everything is on the table. What am I seeing is the lack of political will and consistency. I APPRECIATE YOU JOINING ME. THANK YOU VERY MUCH. THANK YOU, PIERCE. LET ME GO BACK FOR A QUICK REACTION FROM THE PANEL. ROBERT AMSALAM, WHAT DID YOU MAKE OF THAT FROM A QUITE RECENT UKRAINIAN PRIME MINISTER? LISTEN, I TOTALLY EMPATHIZE WITH HIS, WITH HIS VIEWS. I DON'T THINK THEY'RE, AGAIN, I'M GOING TO SAY BLUNTLY, I I don't know how realistic it is that we have to continue to sacrifice Ukrainian lives and dismiss a discussion of peace.

54:28I want to go back to something that's very important. The EU is not meeting with Putin. The EU has, in fact, delegated everything to the United States because they're in this position of not recognizing Russia, not talking to Russia, treating them as an outlaw state. How is that doing? My view is it's not doing well. All of these sanctions, everything that we've done, only further weakens Europe's leverage with Putin. And in fact, before this latest initiative, Trump went to see Xi Jinping to try to apply pressure on Putin from the Chinese side. I think Trump is ahead of all of us in terms of trying to play the game.

55:10And it's not that I disagree with the general one bit about what I'd like to see as an end result. What I'm saying is to the West, put up or shut up. Right now, we can't keep sacrificing brave Ukrainians in a war which we're not really interested in fully supporting and just have them continue to sacrifice. In Churchill's case, it was the children of England who were going to fight that war. In this case, it isn't the children of Europe. It is the Ukrainians who are fighting that war. and they're completely outmanned and outgunned. And the point of view is to stare reality in the face. This is no leader of a democratic Ukraine.

55:57This is the leader of an autocratic Ukraine, deeply, deeply compromised within his own people. He's got Yermak negotiating. He's chosen a man who everyone knows is going to be indicted in Ukraine. And he's put him to head the negotiations TO TRY TO PROTECT HIM, JUST LIKE WHEN HE TRIED TO DESTROY NABU BEFORE THEY COULD CHARGE ALL OF HIS FRIENDS. WE 'VE GOT TO START BEING REALISTIC ABOUT WHAT'S HAPPENING IN UKRAINE AND STOP FANTASIZING ABOUT WHO THEY ARE AND WHAT THEY ARE. THIS ISN'T NECESSARILY ABOUT NATO. THIS THREAT OF RUSSIA IS INTERESTING. RUSSIA HAS SPENT YEARS AND HASN'T GOTTEN NEAR KYIV.

56:38But all of a sudden, they're viewed as this giant threat to Europe. I think the point is, let's get realistic about a peace plan or step in with Ukraine and go to war if that's what the West thinks. But this drip, drip, drip of support, which just further sacrifices the Ukrainian lost generation, is not doing anybody any good. OK. Bill Browder. I don't even know what to say. IT'S ALL JUST LIKE ALICE IN WONDERLAND, ALL OF THE STUFF THAT YOU 'VE JUST SAID. UKRAINE IS BEGGING US. WE'RE NOT SACRIFICING UKRAINIANS. UKRAINIANS ARE FIGHTING FOR THEIR LIVES. THEY'RE FIGHTING FOR THEIR TERRITORY. THEY'RE FIGHTING FOR THEIR FREEDOM.

57:22AND WE JUST HEARD THE FORMER PRIME MINISTER BEGGING US FOR HELP. I DON'T SEE WHAT... IT'S JUST AN ABSURDITY TO SAY THAT SOMEHOW WE'RE DOING THIS TO THEM. WHAT WE'RE DOING TO THEM, YOU'RE RIGHT. We should, as the general said, we should be giving them everything that they're asking for militarily. We should be cutting off Russia's ability to sell its oil. We should be confiscating the Russian Central Bank Reserves and giving that to them to buy weapons to fight off the Russians. The Ukrainians are an unbelievably effective fighting force. Russia's not winning. Russia has been at this. They're supposed to win in the first three days.

58:00AND HERE WE ARE, ALMOST FOUR YEARS INTO THE WAR, AND EVERY DAY THEY'RE LOSING A THOUSAND MEN AS THEY TRY TO GET A FEW METERS OF TERRITORY. THIS IS A STALEMATE. IT'S A STALEMATE THAT PUTIN, HE'S THE AGGRESSOR, UKRAINE IS THE DEFENDER, UKRAINE NEEDS WHATEVER THEY CAN TO DEFEND THEMSELVES. YOU'RE RIGHT, WE'RE NOT GIVING THEM WHAT THEY SHOULD BE GIVEN. WE SHOULD GIVE THEM MORE, WE SHOULD ALLOW THEM TO DEFEND THEMSELVES. AND ALL THIS TALK OF TRYING TO FORCE CONSESSIONS ON UKRAINE SO THAT THEY CAN, THEY ARE EFFECTIVELY NEUTERED. THEY'RE NOT A SOVEREIGN COUNTRY. THEY DON'T HAVE A PROPER MILITARY. IT'S ALL COMPLETE AND UTTER, IT'S JUST TERRIBLE, IT'S A TERRIBLE IDEA.

58:40AND I'M GLAD THAT THE WHOLE 28-POINT, BY THE WAY, COOKED UP IN THE KREMLIN, TRANSLATED FROM RUSSIAN QUOTE PEACE PLAN. I'M GLAD THAT'S BEEN DISCARDED AND THERE'S AT LEAST SOMETHING BETTER ON THE TABLE BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, THAT WHOLE THING WAS A NONSTARTER FROM THE VERY BEGINNING. AND, BILL, HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN THE DEFECTIONS AT THE FRONT? 10 ,000 A WEEK LEAVING. HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN THE HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF UKRAINIAN YOUNG MEN WHO ARE LIVING IN EUROPE WHO HAVE FLED THE WAR? LET'S JUST BE REALISTIC. BECAUSE THE DESERTIONS IN UKRAINE ARE KILLING THEIR FIGHTING FORCE. A LOT OF PEOPLE DON'T WANT TO FIGHT IN A WAR, BUT THEY ALSO, AT THE MOMENT, ARE FIGHTING OFF THE RUSSIANS ARE KILLED TO THE RUSSIANS.

59:26THEY ARE KIDNAPPING PEOPLE TO GET THEM TO THE FRONT, BILL. AND SO THEREFORE WHAT? UKRAINE SHOULD JUST LAY DOWN THEIR ARMS AND BE RAPED AND THE MEN. STOP IT. LET'S BE REALISTIC. NO, THEREFORE WE SHOULD HAVE AN INTERNATIONAL PEACE KEEPING FORCE. NO, WE SHOULD HAVE IT. STOP IT. LET'S TALK ABOUT AN INTERNATIONAL

59:52PEACE KEEPING FORCE. I WON'T STOP IT. I WON'T STOP IT.

59:58THE BUDAPEST MEMORANDUM IS IT'S NOT BEING OFFERED. THERE'S NO PEACE KEEPING FORCE. IT'S NOT BEING OFFERED. THERE'S NO PEACE KEEPING FORCE. AND ANY AGREEMENTS THAT ANYONE HAS MADE, WE SAW WHAT HAPPENED WITH THE BUDAPEST MEMORANDUM. IT'S NONSENSE. HAVE YOU LOOKED AT THE WORDING OF THE SUPPOSED SECURITY GUARANTEES? THERE'S NO GUARANTEE THERE AT ALL. IT'S COMPLETELY NONSENSE. THE POINT IS TO NEGOTIATE, BILL. NOTHING IS ETCHED IN STONE. BUT AS LONG AS WE JUST HARDBALL AND EUROPE WON'T MEET PUTIN. NOBODY IS HARDBALLING ANYTHING. NOBODY IS HARDBALLING. THE RUSSIANS HAVE PUT THIS COMPLETE NONSENSE PLAN IN FRONT OF THE UKRAINIANS AND SAID TAKE IT OR LEAVE IT.

1:00:39AND THE UKRAINIANS ARE SAYING I 'LL LEAVE IT. THAT'S WHAT'S HAPPENED. AND THE UKRAINIANS ARE. ACTUALLY I DON'T THINK THAT'S WHAT'S HAPPENED. RUPIO SAID YESTERDAY THEY 'VE MADE THE BEST IS THE BEST IS THE AMAZING PROGRESS. YOU KNOW WHAT? THE REALITY IS THIS IS MOVING SO FAST EVEN AS WE ARE HAVING THIS DEBATE, IT HAS BEEN FASCINATING BY THE WAY AND THANK YOU ALL OF YOU FOR YOUR CONTRIBUTIONS BUT EVEN AS WE ARE TALKING I SUSPECT THINGS ARE CHANGING QUITE FAST ON THE GROUND OF THESE NEGOTIATIONS. I HOPE WE CAN GET SOMEWHERE. I, you know, as always, I hope for the best. I have to say I'm quite cynical about Russia's willingness to do any kind of deal right now, but we'll see.

1:01:17Thank you all to my panel very much. I appreciate it. Thank you.

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