In short
The episode centers on the murder of 23-year-old Ukrainian refugee Irina Zarutska on a commuter train in North Carolina and a dispute over how mainstream media covered it versus other high-profile killings. Guests argue about whether the delay reflects racial double standards, “selective empathy,” and/or policy failures (decarceration, bail reform, mental-health resource cuts). Christopher Rufo claims the case illustrates consequences of progressive “left-wing” criminal-justice and mental-health policies, citing that the suspect DeCarlos Brown had 14 convictions and reportedly severe mental illness; he also argues media framed the story through right-wing race-baiting rather than the crime itself. Isabel Brown emphasizes the alleged on-video quote “I got that white girl,” arguing that if the genders/races were reversed coverage would differ; she also criticizes media behavior around other controversies. Dr. Alison Wiltz counters with crime-statistics claims (violent crime down in multiple cities) and argues investigations should proceed; she also cites FBI hate-crime victim patterns and wrongful-conviction risks. Mark Lamont Hill disputes “far-right” framing and argues coverage choices reflect what becomes a “window” into broader debates. Notable examples referenced: George Floyd, Daniel Penny, a prior bus stabbing in Tulsa, and an NBC apology/misgendering controversy after a mass shooting.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOThe Murder of Irina Zarutska
0:45 to 5:19
Discussion on the circumstances surrounding the murder of Irina Zarutska and media coverage.
“No, I'd say you're far wrong most of the time.”
Policy Discussions and Public Outrage
5:19 to 8:27
Exploration of the implications of progressive policies and public reactions to the murder.
“Marla Monhill, before I get your response to that, I want to play, this is an audio emerge today of to Carlos Brown talking to authorities, and he was asked why he did it.”
Debate on Racial Dynamics
8:27 to 13:20
Debate over racial implications in media coverage and public perception of crime.
“It's just an awful, terrible story to a woman who I feel great sympathy for.”
Murder on the Train: A Cultural Reflection
14:00 to 18:54
A discussion analyzing media coverage and societal reactions to a brutal train murder.
“I have no expectation of a gang member protecting and serving me.”
Community Response to Violence
18:54 to 20:53
Exploration of societal apathy and the failure to assist victims in tragic situations.
“looking up and feeling completely petrified, trying to work through these emotions, and then we see her accept her fate of, I probably am going to die in the next few seconds.”
Debate on Selective Outrage
20:53 to 23:21
A heated debate on the media's selective outrage regarding violent incidents based on race.
“Alison Wiltz, what is your response to the way this story has been covered by the media?”
Dissecting Crime Statistics and Racial Narratives
23:21 to 28:00
A detailed examination of crime statistics and their implications on racial narratives in media.
“All I can do is be honest in my point and I can show you on Twitter.”
Debate on Racial Crime Statistics
28:00 to 29:50
The discussion analyzes statistics related to homicide rates among different racial groups, sparking a contentious debate.
“Which demographic group has the highest rate of homicide and highest rate of interracial homicide?”
Media Representation and Crime Reporting
31:46 to 40:08
A discussion on how media coverage varies based on racial elements in crime stories, questioning double standards in reporting.
“The question for me, though, isn't that.”
Discussion on Misgendering and Media Apologies
40:08 to 42:03
A heated debate regarding the media's handling of sensitive topics such as gender identity in the context of crime reporting.
“And so we decided to keep this person off the streets.”
Show all 15 chapters
Debate on Misgendering and Media Responsibility
42:03 to 48:49
The discussion centers around the implications of misgendering in media coverage of a mass shooter and the responsibilities of news outlets.
“And it's exactly the problem that we're dead.”
Mainstream Media's Role in Society
48:50 to 50:55
The hosts analyze the current role of mainstream media and its impact on public perception and trust.
“It enrages me that we feel the need as a society to issue clarifications and apologies to dead mass shooters.”
Double Standards in Crime Reporting
50:56 to 56:00
A critical look at the perceived double standards in media coverage of racially charged crime stories.
“Well, I think they all operate from a weird agenda.”
Debate on Media Bias and Double Standards
56:00 to 59:52
Explore the complexities of media representation and racial dynamics in crime reporting.
“Can you explain to us the statistics of per capita?”
Examining Media Responsibility
59:52 to 1:01:26
Discuss the role of media coverage and perceptions of bias in reporting crimes.
“You think the media is biased against white women?”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00Just lash that on. That's what happened. They lash that on. The death of Irina Zarutska is precisely what happens when cities adopt progressive policies. We often tell news stories for particular reasons. Black people get killed every day by black people. It usually doesn't make the news. So when we say that certain stories are being cherry-picked, it's because it's not reflective of the actual data that shows that crime is down. As if you shouldn't care about the death of a beautiful, innocent 23-year-old girl who fled a literal war zone to be brutally murdered, presumably simply because of her skin color and what she looks like.
0:39Piers Morgan:If you understand when you call somebody like me far right, you instantly lose all credibility. Even Mark Lamont Hill wouldn't say I'm far right, I hope. Would you, Mark? No, I'd say you're far wrong most of the time. That's fine. The shocking murder of Ukrainian refugee Irina Zarutska on a train in North Carolina has triggered justified outrage. There's justified suspicion that legacy media was too slow to cover the story to avoid inflaming racial tensions, a level of caution that seldom applies when the roles are reversed. There is justified fury that anyone in America, no matter their race, could face a chahenis attack on a commuter train.
1:17Piers Morgan:There are justified questions about why the killer was free. U.S. President Donald Trump said this. For far too long, Americans have been forced to put up with Democrat-run cities that set loose savage, bloodthirsty criminals to prey on innocent people. Really, very, very innocent people. In every place, they control radical left judges, politicians and activists, and they've adopted a policy of catch and release for thugs and killers. in Charlotte, North Carolina. We saw the results of these policies when a 23-year-old woman who came here from Ukraine met her bloody end on a public train. And here's a picture of it.
2:00This is the picture of it. And this is a picture of the woman, a beautiful young girl that never had problems in life with a magnificent future in this country. And now she's dead.
2:20Piers Morgan:What President Trump did not mention directly was race, but just about everybody else has. And that is where the question of what is justified becomes a debatable point. Commentators, including CNN's Van Jones, accused popular right-wing influencers of opportunism and race-baiting. Why that man did what he did. We don't know how to deal with people who are hurting in the way this man was hurting. Hurt people hurt people. What happened was horrible. No one mentioned the word race, white, black or anything except him. Responsive conservatives have been appointed at a double standard, citing nationwide fury over cases like Daniel Penny and George Floyd.
2:55Piers Morgan:So the narrative we hear from the media is exactly what you would expect. They are infinitely more outraged at the alleged racially charged language of conservative pundits than they are at the actual butchery of an innocent woman by a 14-time career felon on public transportation. It's a vexed and contentious debate, which is why we're going to have it now. Joining me are the host of BET News, Mark Lamont Hill, Christopher Rufo, author and senior fellow at the Manhattan Institute, Isabel Brown, host of the Daily Wire's all-new Isabel Brown Show, and Dr Alison Wiltz, the scholar and co-founder of Writers and Editors of Colour.
3:27Piers Morgan:Well, welcome to all of you. Christopher Rufo, it struck me very quickly that there was an extraordinary lack of interest in this story from most of the mainstream media to the point where I posted on X. Why is this not getting more attention? It's one of the most shocking things that I've heard or seen in a long time. This innocent young Ukrainian refugee in America on a train, just being cold-bloodedly murdered on a train. And yet it was getting hardly any attention in mainstream media. First of all, On that point, why do you think there was such a collective lack of interest? Well, there's the obvious and much discussed racial double standard at places like The New York Times and CNN and the progressive media.
4:16But I think there's a deeper reason. And the reason is this. The death of Irina Zarutska is precisely what happens when cities adopt progressive policies. And so this is actually a didactic tale of what happens when you have a left-wing government, left-wing decarceral policies, left-wing bail reform, a left-wing magistrate judge who has, by the way, a DEI consultant as she moonlights. And this is what happens. You get people that have 14 convictions, that have diagnosis of paranoid schizophrenia. IN THIS CASE, THIS PERSON'S OWN FAMILY, DECARLOS BROWN'S OWN FAMILY, REQUESTED THAT THIS PERSON BE HELD IN A PSYCHIATRIC FACILITY, BUT PROGRESSIVES HAVE DEMOLISHED ALL OF THE PLACES THAT WOULD HAVE KEPT PEOPLE SAFE, AND THE END IS QUITE SIMPLE.
5:05YOU END UP WITH A GIRL THAT IS STABBED IN THE NECK ON A TRAIN. THIS COULD BE PREVENTED, AND THE REASON THAT IT WASN'T PREVENTED IN THIS CASE IS SIMPLY BECAUSE OF THE PROGRESSIVE POLICIES ADOPTED BY CHARLOTTE AND REALLY BLUE CITIES all over the country.
5:19Piers Morgan:Marla Monhill, before I get your response to that, I want to play, this is an audio emerge today of to Carlos Brown talking to authorities, and he was asked why he did it. She's from the Ukraine. She's from Russia. And, you know, they got a war. They had a war going on against the United States. So I'm just trying to understand, out of all people, why her? That's, hey, I don't have nothing. They just lashed out on her. That's what happened. that last died on her. Whoever was working the material that last died on her. I mean, Marlon Monhill, there seems to be little doubt that this was a man suffering from severe mental illness.
6:03Piers Morgan:That much is evident in the horrific act that he committed of murdering this innocent girl. But the fact that he had been convicted 14 times and was still allowed to just be freely operating on trains in any way he saw fit to then be potentially able to commit this crime. That is a scandal. I mean, you may not agree with Christopher Rufo's characterization of it all being a left-wing problem that's created this, but it is a scandal that somebody like that was out free in that mental condition with that number of convictions, isn't it? Yeah, I mean, I agree with Chris that this is a scandal. I agree with you that it's a scandal.
6:48I also agree that it's an indictment on public policy. I don't think, though, that this is the result of liberal or progressive policies. It's quite the opposite, in fact. Unfortunately, for decades now, we have divested from mental health resources. We shut down mental institutions, mental homes, mental hospitals. we take out resources for drug treatment and rehab, and we criminalize everything. And so if we had invested in housing, if we'd invested in health care, et cetera, we would have the structures and systems necessary to deal with someone so that they don't have to use the subway as a homeless shelter.
7:25We could deal with someone whose own family is saying, please give this person some support. If the only thing you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. And in this country, the only thing we have is hardcore right wing policies that try to criminalize everything. And the reason, finally, that this isn't a story or hasn't been a national story, I don't think it's the racial angle of it as much as I think there are clear winners and losers. You know, when you and I debate, and you and I debate a lot, Pierce, about these stories, it's often debatable, an issue is debatable because we're asking, for example, if someone's getting choked out on the subway, is the rider correct to put the chokehold on, or should we be sat with the person who's doing harm on the train?
8:10If it's George Floyd, we're debating it because we want to know whether or not the police went too far, but they do have the right to use some kind of force, but did they use too much force? And here, no one debates that the guy was wrong. No one debates that she was an awful, awful victim of an awful circumstance. And I think that's why we don't see more conversation about it, because it's not sexy. It's just an awful, terrible story to a woman who I feel great sympathy for.
8:34Piers Morgan:Well, it shouldn't have to be sexy, should it? I mean, I would ask you, Mark, you know, you lambasted Charlie Kirk in 2020 online. You said you tweeted nothing about what should happen to the officers who killed George Floyd, white supremacist capitalist logic values property over black people. But I could throw back the same thing at you and say, we did a little check and we couldn't find anything that you'd posted about the murder of this Ukrainian woman on a train at the hands of a black man. And the criticism would be that, you know, by not saying anything about this, even as it was raging around on social media, you're making a calculated decision that you don't care very much about this.
9:17Piers Morgan:And the critics of you would say that that is a racial calculation you're making, that when it was George Floyd and it was a white policeman who was committing a heinous crime, I make no pretense about that at all, I said it at the time and believe it now, but when it was that way round, then you were absolutely steaming in on anyone who wouldn't share your view about it and wanted to be publicly very clear about that. But on this, it was like it hadn't happened. Yeah, I think there's a far more accurate and less interesting answer for that. And the truth is, I didn't hear about the story until recently.
9:54And I heard about the story because of the right-wing, vocal right-wing people who were saying, hey, you guys are ignoring this for good reason or you guys are ignoring this because of a racial agenda. But this story was everywhere. And then we began to talk about it.
10:06Piers Morgan:Hang on, Mark. This story was everywhere. You're a journalist. You're a journalist. You're all over everything, right? The idea that you weren't aware of it at all for three days, come on. It's me you're talking to. All I can do is give you the honest answer. And the honest answer is I didn't actually track the story until I started hearing complaints about the story not being covered. And then I did cover it. But I'm saying on the first day, I didn't know about it. Second day, I didn't know about it. That's the honest answer. But if you also look at my record, and I'm sure you did this because you're a devoted journalist, you know that I've covered many stories of white people who have been harmed by black people.
10:40I've covered many white people who've faced the death penalty. I've covered white people who were shot by police, unarmed white people who were shot by police. But my problem here with this...
10:50Piers Morgan:All right, Mark, my problem with this story, in the way that it's played out, is that it's so easy and so lazy for people to ignore the story in the mainstream media, as they did for several days, completely ignore it, and then only report it through the prism of all these right-wing hate-bangers are trying to play the race card with this story, and that's why we're now doing it, which is what they've been doing. I saw some headlines in New York Times. I saw them on some of the CNN and others. I was like, wow, what, you think that's the only reason? That's the only justification for covering this?
11:27Piers Morgan:Is that because right-wing people on social media are saying it's outrageous that media aren't covering it? You can point to that as the story. That's the nose. That's the peg. But it's not, though, is it? The peg should be that a beautiful young Ukrainian woman had her life snuffed out on a train, and the video is one of the worst things I've seen in a very long time. And my journalist, as you put it, my journalist head, after many years working in the media on both sides of Atlantic, is this is a huge story. Not because right-wing people are saying no-one's commenting on it, but because it's a disgusting, heinous crime that's happened on a train in America.
12:10I MEAN, THE SAD PART IS THAT DISGUSTING, AWFUL CRIMES HAPPEN THROUGHOUT THE COUNTRY AND THEY ALL DESERVE COVERAGE. BUT IN NEWSROOMS, AS YOU KNOW, WE OFTEN PICK STORIES BASED ON WHAT WILL GET RATINGS, WHAT WILL DRAW ATTENTION. WHY DID THE GEORGE SLO, JUST EXPLAIN TO ME, FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE, BUT MARK. THAT'S THE...
12:32Piers Morgan:BUT MARK, FINAL POINT TO MARK BEFORE I MOVE ON TO OTHERS. BUT I'M JUST CURIOUS. why when George Floyd was killed and that video came out was there just this collective mainstream media horror that made this the biggest news story of the year almost instantaneously. And yet here, there almost appeared to be the collective opposite response of just almost pretending it hadn't happened. And I don't buy the story that none of them saw it. I saw it. I saw a lot of people talking about it. I think some people said. And I was like, why is nobody covering this? This is, this is heinous. So I just think there is a clear, there's a clear double standard there, which I'm really struggling to get my head around.
13:19I don't, I don't think that it's a double standard. Again, I think the question is, and that was the third point I was making, is that sometimes when we, when we cover news stories intensely, it's because they become windows into broader debates and issues. In the case of George Floyd, there, there have been longstanding debates in this country about the extent of police power, about the limitations of police power, about police violence, etc. Also, there's something counterintuitive about police killing somebody who is unarmed. I don't have an ex... When a gang member kills another gang member, I don't do a front-page story on it.
13:52It doesn't lead on my news show. Why? Because, one, it happens a great deal, and it's awful, but it happens a great deal at a time.
13:57Piers Morgan:How many innocent young women are stabbed to death on a train? I have no... Let me finish the sentence. I have no expectation of a gang member protecting and serving me. I do of a police officer. So it becomes a counterintuitive and dramatic story. In this case, I am horrified that this woman was killed. I think it's awful. And there are many stories about people being killed on trains around this country. The fact that this particular one didn't get told is unfortunate. But I don't think it's because she's white or because the assailant was black. I think, honestly, it's far more cynical than that.
14:29I think that people don't care, and often newsrooms pitch to what people care about, and people like sexy stories. They like counterintuitive stories. They like stories of corrupt power. And this isn't one of those things. Wow.
14:40Piers Morgan:I mean, it is to me. And it is cynical. Let me bring in Isabel Brown here, because, you know, to me, it is a huge story, and the racial component cannot be ignored, because we don't know for sure what the motivation was, and it clearly is mentally ill. However, however, he was reportedly heard saying I got that white girl after killing her, which, you know, if it was the other way around, that was a young, that was a beautiful young black girl who had been murdered by a white man who'd said I got that black girl. I think all hell would have broken loose in the mainstream media. And I say that as someone who's been in the mainstream media for a long time, right?
15:26Piers Morgan:So, so it's on video. It's on literally on video. I mean, this is I'm astonished, truly, Piers, hearing what I'm hearing today, that it's just not a sexy story. We only cover things that people care about, as if you shouldn't care about the death of a beautiful, innocent 23 year old girl who fled a literal war zone to come to the United States and live a peaceful, prosperous life, coming home from her work shift to be brutally murdered, presumably simply because of her skin color and what she looks like. And we can say we have no evidence or we don't know what the real motive was in this situation all day long.
16:01But the truth is, in an eight-minute video that has now been viewed billions of times on social media, I hope at this point, we hear twice, not once, but twice, I got that white girl coming out of the mouth of the man who decided to commit this heinous crime. This is something that should be a firestorm for our culture. But it's incredibly telling to me that within moments after George Floyd's death, You saw the Catholic University of America instantly put up a mural of the Virgin Mary cradling George Floyd. You saw an Instagram trend that took over every single leading company, brand, influencer, celebrities account, spurring millions of people to post a black square.
16:39And you saw our society change overnight with the rise of the Black Lives Matter movement. But now you can see literal days go by with CNN having 42 plus thousand stories of George Floyd on their website and zero search results for Irina Zarutska within several days after an attack like this happens. And the Wall Street Journal wait to weigh in on this until days later on page five of the newspaper in which their only headline was women's stabbing death becomes MAGA talking point. This is the clearest window into how much the media is doing everything they can to pit people against each other.
17:14And I, for one, am kind of grateful for how disgustingly they're treating this because it's a wake up call for humanity to realize we don't have to live this way. We don't have to expect that this is normal on a train ride home from work in Charlotte, North Carolina, for a beautiful young girl trying to provide for herself and create a better future. And the expectation that this should be a normal response to this outrage is disgusting to me.
17:37Piers Morgan:The only thing I took issue with you about, in terms of what you wrote about this, you said, for almost two minutes, not one person sitting around the arena even called 911 or asked if she was OK. No-one jumped up to try and stop the bleeding. No-one held her hand and prayed with her in the last moments. We effectively removed our common humanity from society. Shame on us. Now, I've watched this video, the whole thing is horrific, but I've watched the full extended sort of sequence of events. I don't think most of the people, if not any of them, really realise what had happened. You know, you just...
18:10Piers Morgan:And it all happens very quickly. She kind of slightly slumps, but you certainly... If you weren't looking directly at what he did, you may have just thought they'd slightly collided as he got up and walked away. So I don't think you can blame automatically the passengers for not being aware of what had happened to her. And it was a black man who first came to her aid, as it turned out. So again, I don't think there was a racial component to the lack of assistance that she received. Oh, I totally agree. And I certainly understand the immediate shock because this did unfold so quickly and it even takes Irina 10 to 15 seconds to really fully understand what has just happened to her.
18:52The image that we see of her in a still of this video looking up and feeling completely petrified, trying to work through these emotions, and then we see her accept her fate of, I probably am going to die in the next few seconds. I'm going to die alone as she puts her head in her hands. I think that's the really telling moment to me about how we respond to situations of tragedy like this. Skin color be damned. It doesn't really matter if you look the same as this young woman or not. 15 seconds is a long time. Think of how much screen time we all have every day watching 8 million 15-second videos in our free time.
19:23It's enough time for people to at least glance in her direction, to realize something is wrong here, to yell out help or to call 911. And yet when you watch this series of events unfold on this video, it's so troubling to me that everyone looks out the window, they avert their gaze, they go back to their phone, someone pulls out their phone to record this, thinking it's more important to have clicks or views on social media about a tragedy than to try to help an innocent young woman in the most desperate moments of her life. And then to see everyone get up and leave from their seats and try to leave the train is so telling to me that we can't even connect with someone who might be different from us or who we don't even know her story in her last few moments on earth to comfort her and provide a sense of community around her last few moments because we're so afraid of something bad happening to ourselves.
20:11And we covered that on my show today, that ultimately we can blame 8 million policy prescriptions for why this happened and what needs to happen moving forward. But I hope this is an interesting moment for America to take a long, hard look in the mirror and say, honestly, shame on us. Because we know what could have happened on the other end of things if someone did have the courage to stand up and do something. We saw it with Daniel Penny mere months ago, and everyone tried to attack him as this horrible, evil individual for society. But he said, consequences be damned. I might end up in prison, but hopefully my soul will receive an award for this in heaven.
20:44And I can honestly hit my pillow at night saying I did what I could to protect my community today, no matter who is being hurt on the hands of evil.
20:53Piers Morgan:OK, Dr. Alison Wiltz, what is your response to the way this story has been covered by the media? Well, first of all, I would say that I also first heard about it actually from trolls online who made me aware of the story and they were instantly telling me, why didn't you focus on this? Secondly, I would like to say that the stabbing itself was tragic. And I think that all of us should be sending condolences to our friends and family. I think it's essential to point out that some misinformation has been shared so far. violent crime is actually down 31 percent in Washington, D.C., 29 percent in Baltimore, and 29 percent also in Charlotte, where this crime took place.
21:39So when we say that certain stories are being cherry-picked, it's because it's not reflective of the actual data that shows that crime is down. That being said, also, last month, if we're going to talk about selective outrage, there was a Black woman who was unfortunately stabbed by a white man on a public bus in Tulsa, Oklahoma. And none of the people on this stage so far have addressed that last month. So I think if we're going to call out selective outrage, I think that's fine so we can grow and be better. But I think we have to be honest that the Black woman who was stabbed last month, luckily she survived.
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22:17She was randomly stabbed by a white man. I don't tend to think of this as a racial story. That being said, the investigation needs to play out. If this is a hate crime, it should be acknowledged as such. That being said, FBI data shows that black people are actually the group who are most likely victims of hate crimes in this country. And they're also the most likely to be wrongfully convicted of homicide.
22:40Piers Morgan:But why would you be saying that now? I mean, what relevance does that have? Because I think it's important. But what relevance does that... Hang on. Because it's being cherry-picked, right? But in a way, you're playing a sort of crude form of whataboutery. No, I'm talking about reality. All these statistics you're talking about have nothing to do with her death. It has to do with people saying that it's unsafe. People are saying there's a culture of unsafety. And I'm trying to provide some facts to show that people's feelings... That's not what we're debating. I'm not debating about whether the crime statistics or this, this or this.
23:17So you want to debate whether or not they paid attention to the story?
23:20Piers Morgan:What I'm curious about is why there was a collective refusal to treat this story with the same kind of magnitude that it deserved. Right, but that wasn't true. All I can do is be honest in my point and I can show you on Twitter. The moment I found out is when someone responded to an unrelated post. I was talking about selective empathy because that's something that I talk about frequently. and they posted it and said, well, I didn't hear you say anything about this. And that's when I started to look into the story. Have you said anything about it now on X? Not yet, but I'm preparing a story. I wanted to investigate...
23:57But why haven't you said nothing?
23:58Piers Morgan:I mean, if this... With all due respect, if this was a major story in the national media, as this has become in the last two days, and it involved a white man killing a black girl and being caught on tape saying, I got that black girl, I suspect you would have posted about it. And this plays... And by the way, this works both ways, right? There are people on the other side of this, right, who I would make the same accusation to. Selective interest in stories based on your agenda, your narrative... So what happened about the story last month? In August, when the black woman got stabbed, isn't that evidence of your selective empathy on the far right to not have called out that story in the same way that you're calling out?
24:39Piers Morgan:Are you saying I'm far right? Well, I don't know. Nobody here is. Have you ever watched anything I've ever done? Do you know anything about me? I have. Do you even know who I am? Yeah, you're Piers Morgan. You think I'm on the far right? I think some things... So I'm a progressive, so let's start there. Why don't you tell me one far right thing I've ever said? Well, I feel like you fall into far... One, I'll take one. OK. So I think that your line of questioning, your line of targeting comes from a far-right political perspective, because it's why you're calling out selective empathy for this, but not the selective empathy last month.
25:18Piers Morgan:But do you understand when you call somebody like me far-right, you instantly lose all credibility? Even Mark Lamont Hill wouldn't say I'm far-right, I hope. Would you, Mark? I'd say you're far wrong most of the time. That's fine, and that's a good joke. But actually... What if I'm wrong about your political ideology? But in a way, Dr. Allison, here's the problem. It's a bit like when the progressive left say, Trump's the new Hitler. They're all a bunch of Nazis. When you say ridiculous things to try and distract from whatever the particular thing is, you lose all credibility. You lose all credibility.
25:55Piers Morgan:When your response to me saying, if it was the other way around, and you had a white man on tape saying, I got that black girl after literally executing her in cold blood on a train, If literally your response is, well, you're far right, that's why you're saying that, that's why you're asking me, it is a distracting tool which makes you lose credibility. You're not answering my question. You're just trying to turn it into... The only person who would think that is a far right lunatic. Allow me to answer. No, I don't think you're a far right lunatic at all. I think that there's a certain political ideology that causes you to focus and accuse others of not focusing on this story, when in reality, if we look at just last month in August, there was a similar story where a white man stabbed a black girl.
26:40So if we're talking about selective empathy, I provided a perfect example of if that was truly the concern that could have been brought up. And instead of us having an honest discourse about that, if I'm wrong about you being far right, then my apologies. My intention is not to misrepresent you. My intention is to try to understand to the best of my ability and to communicate with us.
26:57Piers Morgan:Let me bring in Christopher Rufa. Yeah, let me ask a question for Allison. Allison, you have taught us to look at things through a racial lens. You've taught us not to cherry-pick stories that don't reflect underlying statistical and racial disparities. Maybe you can settle this question for us, because under your theory of looking at things through a racial lens, it's relevant in the case of the DeCarlos Brown murder. What demographic group has the highest rate of homicide, and what demographic group in particular has the highest rate of interracial homicide? So for black people in this country, black people are the most likely to be sentenced.
27:38No, no. Answer my question. Which demographic group has the highest homicide rate and which demographic group has the highest rate of interracial homicide? Simple question. Well, white and black interracial... white and black interracial crimes are very similar statistically. Among white people, it's around 80-something percent. Around white people, It's around 90%. Look it up. I invite anyone to look it up. But I'm not asking about intraracial. I'm saying interracial. Which demographic group has the highest rate of homicide and highest rate of interracial homicide? It's a very simple question.
28:11That's white people. White people are the most likely to commit hate crimes. I said white people. White people are the group that are most likely to commit hate crimes in this country, according to FBI data. So that's your answer. That's an answer to a different question. And I provided you the second answer, too. And look, Mark Lamont Hill knows this, you know this, and this is precisely the point that Piers has been making. The reason this story is generating attention, and the reason this story is generating attention in particular after five years of George Floyd hysteria, is that the simple underlying fact is this.
28:46Black men have the highest rate of homicides in the United States by a long shot, and black men have the highest rate of interracial homicides against white people and in particular against white women. This is an ugly statistic. None of us wish it were true. But if we want to talk about disparities, if we want to talk about looking at things through a racial lens, you have to grapple with this fact. This is not an outlier. This is in fact statistically repeated everywhere across the United States. So if you want to talk about statistics, let's talk about the fact that black That's a different statistic.
29:20Piers Morgan:Yeah, but with all due respect... Yeah, but also squirrels are... It's a relevant crime statistic. Look, Christopher, let me... Can we... Let me just ask Mark LeMond Hill to respond to Christopher there, because on those two points at Mark LeMond Hill, do you dispute what Christopher is saying?
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31:07Piers Morgan:And don't just take their word for it. Here are just a few of their success stories. England football legend Michael Owen lost£40. Robbie, the face of AFTV, dropped over£100. Linda, a top law firm executive, lost£50. And Anita, an immigration lawyer, shed£60. To watch their full stories and find out more, scan the QR code on your screen or visit OxfordNatural.com slash peers. And here's the best part. Use the code peers, P-I-E-R-S, and get 70 % off your first order. Get 70 % off with the promo code peers. No, I think that the data speaks... I think the data... I won't say it speaks for itself.
31:51No data speaks for itself. But I think the data is clear. The numbers are clear. The question for me, though, isn't that. The question for me is why Chris jumps to the conclusion that that's why it wasn't covered. I actually think the data actually supports a different conclusion. Black people are more likely to kill... to be killed and to kill, right, in the country. That's Chris's fundamental point, right? We could get into all the sociological and structural factors for why it's not black pathology. And I'm not saying Chris said this. It's not black pathology. It's not that we're more prone to kill.
32:24We're not naturally or biologically evil.
32:25Piers Morgan:He didn't say any of those things. He simply mentioned two statistics. I just said that Chris did not say that. Pierce, Pierce, Pierce, Pierce, Pierce, Pierce, Pierce, Pierce, Pierce, Pierce, I just said I didn't say that Chris is saying that. Chris did not say that. Just listen to me. We don't always have to disagree. We agree on that point. What I'm saying is, is that news stories and news coverage often does not or do not cover the most prominent victims of a crime or the most prominent purveyors of a crime. We often tell news stories for particular reasons. For example, black people get killed every day by black people.
33:02It usually doesn't make the news. Why? Because we understand why. There are clear winners and losers. There are clear good guys and bad guys in how we tell the story. I'm not saying it's accurate in terms of how we tell the story. and it doesn't make the headline. Oftentimes, the stories that make the headlines are the ones that are counterintuitive or the ones that force us to examine relations of power. That is why we often, for example, if a police officer gets shot by a citizen, if a gang member shoots a police officer, it doesn't usually make national news and stay on the news for two months.
33:33Not because we don't care about the police officer dying, but because there are clear good guys and bad guys. There are clear understandings of what should happen. And no one is disputing what the justice outcome should be. When it's the other way around, it gets more complicated. And so we talk about it more on talk shows. That's all I'm saying. It's more complicated than that. And my sister's point a moment ago was an important one. And you focused on the right wing part and ignored the bigger point she was making. Because it was a ridiculous comment. You showed... Somebody calls me far right.
34:04They obviously know nothing about me. Some people that I know have referred to you that way. Piers, Piers, Piers, Piers, Piers, you're not far right. Nobody's called me far right in my entire life.
34:16Piers Morgan:Until now. I'm sure you've been called far right before. It's the first time forever. No, I've never been called far right by anybody ever. But Piers, even now you're not allowing me to make the other point, to focus on the other point. You're still focused on not being far right. We all agree you're not far right. Now let's move to the actual point. Earlier you were saying that if the tables were turned, we would be covering it. And she was pointing out an example of when the tables were turned and we, in fact, did not cover. We as a media group, we as journalists, and even on the show, we don't cover every story.
34:47Piers Morgan:OK, but was there, in that case, let me ask Dr. Allison, to be fair, was there a tape which had a clear potential racial motivation to that murder in that other instance? No, it wasn't filmed in the same way. OK, so they are qualitatively different in terms of what could be reported. As a former newspaper editor, the moment you have someone on tape saying after they have murdered someone on a train, I got that white girl, there is a clear potential, and I accept the guy was mentally sick, but there is a clear potential racial motivation. And I'm simply saying, and I think I'm saying this from a position of some strength here based on recent history in the way American media cover these stories, had it been the other way round, had it been a form of the George Floyd story and you had someone on tape in the instance you're talking about saying, I got that black girl, I think it would have been a completely different ballgame in terms of how the media covered it.
35:49Piers Morgan:And so there, to me, is a clear double standard. And that is why I now resent... I now resent... I'll bring Isabel in here. I really resent the way the mainstream media, having ignored it, are now feeling that the only way they can cover it is to focus on the MAGA influencers trying to make it a race story when actually there is a tape there. There is a clear motive apparently there on tape of a racial motivation that may have inspired him. It may not be... From a potentially mentally disabled person. OK, fine, fine. But I don't think you would have... I mean, obviously... Hang on, hang on, hang on.
36:26Piers Morgan:I don't think, Alison, with all due respect, I don't know you, for all I know, you might be far right too. But I know, laughable, right, isn't it? When you call people far right when they're not. I know, absolutely laughable. Well, I'm sorry, if I knew you were not far right and that that would have offended you, I would have never said it. So just keep that in mind as well. Right, when you go on somebody's show called Piers Morgan Uncensored, it might be a good idea, just an FYI, a journalist to journo, right, if you just do a little bit of basic fact-checking about who the host is. I did, but we have very different political ideologies, And once again, the way you're approaching this story, it does, to me, seem on the right.
37:07If not on the far right, it is not a center. But you are, in a way... Because if it was a center...
37:11Piers Morgan:Alison, in a way, what you're doing right now is exactly what I'm talking about, right? What you're doing is you're trying to frame this whole thing around the prism of I must be far right because I'm trying to make a race element to this story which doesn't exist, and that's because I'm far right. I never said that a race component did not exist. Wait a minute. So please don't misrepresent what I say. Let me explain before I ask your question. As I've tried to explain to you multiple times now, and I'll do it one more time, but please listen this time, there is a tape of this person saying, I got that white girl.
37:48Piers Morgan:That suggests to me that there is a potential, not definitely, but a potential racist motivation to his execution of a beautiful young Ukrainian refugee on a train in America. And I'm sorry, that is a huge story. And if it was the other way around... And I never said... Other way around... And it was the other way around last month. If the other way around, you wouldn't be racing to make excuses for this killer. There was no coverage. You wouldn't be saying, oh, but hang on, hang on, he was mentally ill. I don't think you would, right? No-one has made an excuse. You have brought up his mental...
38:19But no-one has made an excuse. So allow me to respond very briefly. Very quickly, then Isabel.
38:24Piers Morgan:Very quickly, respond. OK, thank you. OK, so essentially, I never said that there was no racial component. I agreed with you that we do not know that. And the video, the audio, if that is accurate, does point to that. However, what I do in my writing is I focus on stories that are reflective of broader patterns. And the fact of the matter is, even if this is a hate crime, Black people, do not interrupt me. Thank you very much. Black people, do not interrupt me. Black people are the group that are the most likely to be killed from hate crimes in this country. That's a statistic that has not changed since Jim Crow.
39:05It is. Look at the FBI. I invite anyone who listens to this to look for yourself. You do not have to believe me. This is precisely the problem. You want to maintain the fiction that America in 2025 is Jim Crow America, same as always. When the fact is that that's not true anywhere. Charlotte has a black mayor. It has a black police chief. It has aggressive DEI policies. It has a black judge in this case who let this person to Carlos Brown go. You cannot blame white people for this situation. You cannot blame systemic racism. You cannot blame obscure statistical misrepresentations. This is a story that matters.
39:42This is a story that has a significant... Hang on, hang on. Everyone's talking.
39:47Piers Morgan:When you all talk, no one can hear her interview. I want to bring Isabel in. A black woman was stabbed last month. Alison, all due respect, if everyone talks, we can't hear a word. So, Isabel, to you. We're rushing to provide whatever explanation we possibly can to excuse the actions of this depraved young man. And we can say he struggled with mental illness, and that certainly is a conversation our society needs to be having. But to say, oh, no-one's letting him out of prison, he was let out of prison 14 separate times, including after serving a five-year-century armed robbery, where he went out of his way to prove to society he was willing to kill someone in the process of committing a crime.
40:26And so we decided to keep this person off the streets. We need to build more prisons. No, we live in the mass incarceration capital of the world. Let Isabel finish her point.
40:40Piers Morgan:Let Isabel finish her point. Please speak one other time, otherwise we can't hear. Isabel. Alison, you say we're focusing on these broad societal patterns and the big cultural topics that purvey every single instance in the umbrella here. Let's just look at the last few weeks of how the media has treated the subjects that they don't want to talk about. When an evil individual who potentially was struggling with mental health problems, I believe he was, decided to shoot up a Catholic elementary school with notes all over his journal detailing the evil behind all of this. and within hours the mainstream media went out of their way to say, oh, well, we shouldn't feel really that bad because prayers don't work, prayers don't work, prayers don't work.
41:21The only thing that works is pushing a left-wing agenda. This, to me, is indicative of the exact same behaviour where we conveniently ignore something.
41:28Piers Morgan:Well, actually, it was actually worse. Well, prayers alone can't stop the sound of problems. It was actually... Hang on, Alison. About to make a point. It was actually worse than that because what mainstream media did there in the guise of NBC, I think it was, they issued a public apology for misgendering the trans murderer who was dead. We apologise for not using the right pronouns. Oh, piss off. Seriously. Exactly. I mean, what is the mainstream media doing when they think the most important thing... And you wonder why I call you far right. ..the most important thing in the world is to issue a public apology to a dead mass shooter for misgendering them.
42:04Piers Morgan:It is preposterous. It is. It is. And it's exactly the problem that we're dead. By the way, Mark Lamont Hill, if you think that's progressive, you need to get out more and ask average Americans whether they think that's progress. When you have a mainstream network apologising for misgendering a mass shooter. Well, to finish this point, to finish this point, look. The problem is, this is... Hang on, let Mark respond. Let Mark defend the apology for the misgendering. No, no. Piers, you set up an entire debate that I didn't... I haven't said a word and you've already disagreed with me, argued me down, and now you're wedging more space so I can defend a position that I never took.
42:43Let's say it's about talking, then I'll tell you what I actually think. Which sex was the shooter in Minneapolis? Was the shooter in Minneapolis a man or a woman? Which is Minneapolis? It was a trans person, correct? The shooter at Annunciation Catholic Church, the recent shooting in Minneapolis. Was it a man or a woman? Oh. For both of you. Allison and Mark, was it a man or a woman? I don't remember. I'd have to look up to the story because I don't know if it was a trans man or a trans woman. I do not know if it was a trans man or a trans woman. I do not know if it was a person in the trans community.
43:14That are theoretically involved in the news. You guys certainly have your head in the sand on every major story of the last month. I think that everyone should be called the gender that they represent as. I don't understand. Unbelievable. Why is that? Why is that important? Why is that being put at the time? I'd like to respond to that. I would like to hear why Montemont Hill jumped in.
43:36Piers Morgan:when I was berating NBC for that ludicrous apology. Why did you jump in there? I wasn't. Hang on, let Mark Lamont Hill explain why he jumped in. Okay. Hang on, Isabel. Let Mark Lamont Hill respond. First, Chris, you may not know this, but I took a vacation for the last three weeks or so from my show and from doing most news shows because my child was hospitalized and because my mother was sick. And so, no, I actually have not been following this very much. I actually agreed to come on this show, and I read in on this story specifically to do the show. So, no, I haven't been. It's not... I'm not feigning ignorance.
44:11I'm saying I don't understand. Well, I'm sorry to hear. I'm sure we disagree on the trans issue. I'm sure we disagree on the trans issue. I'm not ducking your question. I genuinely just wanted to give you an informed answer. Well, is a trans woman a woman or is a trans woman a man? A trans woman is considered a woman. They're a trans woman. They're a type of woman. Do some women have penises? Oh, my God. A trans woman may. But see, and you wonder why y 'all said no far-right people were on the show. And y 'all are trying to gaslight me and make me think I'm wrong. You sound like you're far out on some psychedelics.
44:46Hold on. Can you listen? Can I say one sentence? Hang on.
44:52Piers Morgan:I'd like to take Mark Lamont Hill back to the moment he interrupted me when I was berating NBC for publicly apologizing for misgendering a mass shooter. So you jumped in there. I wasn't sure why. Right. Yeah, I was jumping in to respond to a different point, but to answer your question, I do disagree with you slightly, in that you said they were apologizing to a mass shooter, and I was simply saying they weren't apologizing to a mass shooter. They were. They were apologizing to the public. Wait, I thought you didn't know anything about this story, Mark. It seems like now you know all about it.
45:28Chris, allow me to finish. Okay, you know what? You're right. I would assume that NBC is not saying, hey, Mr. Mass Shooter, I'm sorry for misgendering you. I was going on what the information peers just provided, which suggested that they apologized for misgendering the shooter. Why would a mainstream...
45:46Piers Morgan:Please allow... No, I'm going to ask you a question. Journalistic integrity. No, Alison, I didn't ask you. I'm asking much. I'm trying to answer your question. Why would a mainstream media company in America today issue a public apology for misgendering a mass shooter? Explain to me. OK, so I feel like I've heard your question. I'd like you to allow me to respond. Just 10 seconds without interruption. My answer to you is, again, based on the information you provided, because, again, I didn't see the announcement. I'm only based on the information you just provided me. So, again, I understand, but Chris was saying, I got you.
46:27You said you didn't know, and now you know, and I'm saying, I still don't know. I'm only basing it on the information you're providing me right now. Forget that. Explain to me why. So to answer... No. I'm trying to. I am trying to. You don't have to... Spit it out, man. You don't have to impress me. I'm answering it. I'm happy to answer it. Sir, for someone who spent 10 minutes arguing why you weren't far right to a straw man, you can certainly allow me 10 seconds to breathe. What I'm saying to you is... Just answer the question. As a news outlet, as a news outlet, you have a responsibility to your audience.
46:55If you misgender the person you're talking about in the story, whether it's the good guy, the bad guy, the good person, the bad person, the correction and the apology is given for the audience's benefit, not for the assailant's benefit. Do you know why the Democrats... Hang on, hang on, hang on. Don't start shouting. You know what, Mark? I wasn't done responding. Do you know why the Democrats... I have not given my... I have not completed my answer. You have not heard my answer yet. I've tried so hard to hear your answer. I would like you to allow me to finish the answer. OK, one way to do it is to not talk while I'm answering.
47:33I thought you just answered it. But just let me finish. And I'm telling you I haven't. Please allow me to finish. OK. Every news outlet issues corrections. And any news story that has been given in my 20 years in news, and I'm sure in your 74 years in news, you know very well that if anybody is misgendered, even if they're not trans, you issue a correction. So it is not uncommon to issue a correction. What is uncommon that you're correct about is that they don't typically apologize. I am simply saying that the apology wasn't, as you suggested, to a mad shooter. I can only imagine that the apology was to the audience because there are many people who are offended by that.
48:11And that's why they did it. Is that a political choice? I couldn't give a... I could not give...
48:15Piers Morgan:Here's my point, though, Mark. Apology for my language. I couldn't give a fuck if they're offended. Offended. I couldn't give a fuck. Why would I care about them being offended about a mass shooter being misgendered? The problem's with them. This is the problem with the progressive left. You've all lost your minds. You've forgotten what ordinary people think. This is why the Democrats are now polling the lowest they've polled in recorded history, because they say absolute nonsense like that. It's nonsense. Nobody should ever apologise to a mass shooter for misgendering them. I've got a few things I'd like to call that person, which don't involve his gender, right?
48:53Piers Morgan:Oh, I misgendered him. I couldn't give a fuck. Sorry. But this really enrages me. It enrages me that we feel the need as a society to issue clarifications and apologies to dead mass shooters. It's preposterous. Anyway, I just want to give the last word to Isabel, because you've got to go, then I'll just have one last roundup with the others. So, Isabel, where does this leave us? Now that mainstream media's caught up with this story and is now giving it plenty of attention, but all through the prism of, look at these right-wing lunatics all making them as a race story, which I just think is so ridiculous, notwithstanding the fact there are right-wing lunatics and there are left-wing lunatics.
49:35Piers Morgan:We've just heard one. But, Isabel, where does this leave us? Yeah, it's a great point, Piers, and it's important to bring this home because ultimately, you know, people are going to walk away from this taking what they did from this debate, but this is precisely the problem with the society that we live in today. We are receiving information through the prism of an agenda of powerful elite people who are doing everything they can to pit people against one another, the masses, who just don't know any better and who need our programming to tell them what to care about, whether it's apologizing for the mispronunciation of pronouns of a dead mass shooter, and I noticed we referred to him as Mr.
50:12Mass Shooter a few minutes ago, so perhaps we need to apologize for that now, or telling you that you shouldn't care about this incident on the Charlotte train, even though it's evoking a visceral response in you. And you know that this is wrong because it doesn't really fit the agenda of the race conversation we're trying to push in this country and in Western civilization. Good people are waking up though. And I think this is precisely why trust in the mainstream media is at an all time low and the people are the media now. This is precisely why young people are getting news from TikTok and Instagram and YouTube channels rather than tuning in to MSNBC, CNN, and the like, because we can no longer reasonably trust that the people who are the educated journalists in our society are actually going out of their way to tell us the truth.
50:56Well, I think they all operate from a weird agenda.
50:57Piers Morgan:I mean, Alison, I mean, Alison, like my son, my son's 32, 28, 24, right? And they were very, you know, when the George Floyd thing happened, they were very keen that I do and say the right thing. They were like, Dad, you've really got to come down hard on this, it's disgusting, the videos are... I said, I don't know, don't worry. And I was. But today they're all like, Dad, why has this story not got more attention? It's one of the worst things we've ever seen. Why did it not get the same attention as George Floyd? I said, I honestly don't have a rational explanation for this. It is one of the worst videos I've seen in a very long time.
51:29Piers Morgan:And yet, for some bizarre reason, a load of newsrooms and American media looked at that video and decided it wasn't a story, even though there was then an audio that came out that had the killer saying, I got that white girl. And my only point and observation about this is I'm absolutely certain that if it had been the other way round and it had been a white guy killing a young, beautiful black girl and saying, I got that black girl, it would be of leading the news within minutes. And that's the difference. And that is a problem. And it's not to say, Alison, you can shake your head, it's not to say there aren't many...
52:02Because of last month.
52:04Piers Morgan:There are many examples the other way round. I accept that and I call them out when I see them. I don't have a horse in this race other than I call it all out when I see blatant double standard. And on this story, there's been a blatant double standard exacerbated by the way that mainstream media is now trying to report this story only through the prism of MAGA people playing the race card. And I think that's reprehensible. I really do. Alison. I think it's very unfortunate. I think it's unfortunate that a lot of people want to cherry-pick the story, but as somebody who studies statistics and studies patterns in behavior.
52:41I can say that crime is down in Charlotte, 29%. We can walk and chew gum. We can mourn the loss of life of this beautiful Ukrainian immigrant woman who should have been protected here, right? And at the same time, we have to be careful not to stereotype, not to overgeneralize, not to fearmonger, because what we need is systemic solutions to systemic problems.
53:06Piers Morgan:But everybody raced to generalize about police officers in the Derek Chauvin story. The statistics show that. So that's the part I mean. Okay, so you're generalizing. With all due respect, no, no, with all due respect, this is the part I think you're missing, and I want to bring a scientific lens to this. The reason why George Floyd was a big story is because black people in America are three times as likely to be killed by the police. If that statistic was not true, I do not think it would have been that story. But, Alison, Alison... And I think that this... But, Alison, you've steadfastly ignored Chris Rufo's two statistics he gave you, which show that there is a pattern...
53:42Piers Morgan:I haven't. I addressed them. ..that there is a pattern in this story, which you're not interested in. You're not even prepared to accept your statistics, which Martin and Martin Hill has accepted are correct. No. What I said was, literally, white people are the group that are more likely to commit hate crimes... You're talking about another statistic. Let me finish because other people were allowed to finish. But you won't answer Chris Rufo's statistics. I am, I am, but you will not allow me to get to that point. Do you admit he's right? I admit that he's right. His interpretation is wrong. Black people are also seven times more likely to be wrongfully convicted, so when you talk...
54:17You're giving another statistic again. When you talk... You're playing Whataboutery. I'm sorry, but you are. No, I'm not. You're playing Whataboutery, and your justification for the coverage of the George Floyd story... All you have to do is let me finish. It'll take less than ten seconds. But because you're trying to push a narrative, you won't let me finish. I'm not pushing any narrative. Let me respond to the point that she's raising. Because I just looked it up. You're wrong on actually all counts. For someone who studies, supposedly studies statistics, I would recommend that you find a different line of work.
54:46Because not only are you willfully blind to the two statistics I've raised, which group has the highest homicide rate, which group has the highest interracial homicide rate. But according to FBI statistics, STATISTICS. ACTUALLY, PER CAPITA, BLACK AMERICANS HAVE A HIGHER RATE OF COMMITTING HATE CRIMES THAN WHITE AMERICANS. THERE'S A STATISTICAL DISPARITY THERE. THAT'S NOT SURE. THAT NOT IN ABSOLUTE TERMS BUT IN PER CAPITA TERMS. EVEN YOUR PRIZE STATISTIC THAT YOU'RE USING AS A SHIELD TO IGNORE THE REALITY ALL AROUND YOU INDICATES THAT YOU DON'T EVEN UNDERSTAND THAT STATISTIC. YOU CAN'T EVEN SAY THE STATISTIC.
55:22SO LET'S ADDRESS THIS. Let's address this before we move on. Because you keep pushing a narrative. We're going to address it. Black people in this country are more than seven times more likely to be wrongfully convicted of murder. So when you only focus on the arrest, when you only focus on the arrest and not on the fact that many of these black people are exonerated, you are pushing a narrative and that is not reflective of the data. And I have never denied that black people are the more likely to be accused of committing violent crimes. But you have to take into consideration that a lot of those convictions don't stick.
55:57And if you don't take that into consideration, you're simply not being honest and dealing with good faith. I never denied that. Hang on. Hang on. Can you explain to us the statistics of per capita?
56:08Piers Morgan:Okay, I want to give a last word to Mark. Well, first of all, I want to ask Mark Monhill, how's your mother doing, first of all? because I didn't ask you in the moment. Much better. She's recovering pretty well. OK, good. That's good to hear. Thank you for asking. I appreciate it. And let me just, I'll give you the final word here because it seems to me, Mark, the reason I'm exercised about this story is I think there is a clear double standard and I don't like the way that the only time mainstream media felt the urge to report this is because they can use it as a way to bash the MAGA right.
56:46So here's my response. I think you put us in an impossible position. And I mean us, I mean people who are arguing the opposite. If you say there's a double standard, the only way to prove that there isn't a double standard is to cite counter evidence. When we cite counter evidence, you then say that's whataboutery or whataboutism. There's no way to prove that it doesn't happen in the converse unless we point and say, well, look at this black person who also got ignored. And in which case you say it's whataboutism. I think it's important to point out the disparities here and the differences here.
57:17My point here is that they're not necessarily reducible to race. I actually find Chris's point more interesting. And one more point. Again, I have not heard the audio saying that I got the white girl. I've heard the claims that that was said. I did not hear. I'm not saying you're wrong. Again, I read it on the story very intensely. I believe you. And I think that changes the dynamics. If that is, in fact, true, and again, I have yet to hear the audio, but if you two say you've heard the audio, I take you at your word. If that is, in fact, true, I think that does add another layer to the story.
57:50But to me, the more important thing about this story is not necessarily whether or not we talk about race in terms of why we don't, or the role of race in why we don't talk about this story. For me, what's more interesting is all the other stuff that gets the person here. Why is this person out of prison but not in a mental institution? What are the circumstances under which they got supervised or didn't get supervised? Why do they have access to weapons? Why is the subway a place where they're able to frequent so often? There are lots of policy issues that I think play into why we're talking about this.
58:24And if I were to have to choose between your analysis and Chris's analysis, I would lean more into Chris's, even though I disagree with his conclusion. The problem here isn't liberal policy. It's the fact that we don't have enough progressive policy and all we have is a carceral state that does not seek to heal or invest or protect or educate, but instead only wants to incarcerate. So that's where I think we end here. And I think he was let out of prison 14 times. We don't have enough of a carceral state. He was let out of prison 14 times, sometimes immediately. We actually should have had him in prison.
59:00That would have been the solution to this problem and prevented this senseless death. And, Chris, again, I think that's missing my argument here. You said, like, he was led out of prison a bunch of times. Yes, but remember I began by saying all we have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. I'm saying he was led out of prison, but he wasn't led into a mental institution. What would a secure confinement mental institution where he gets actual treatment and care look like? Well, look, there's no... I'm going to wrap things up, but there's no doubt... There are other options here, other policy options here.
59:31Piers Morgan:Look, there's no doubt there was a series of failures at almost every level here. but I include the mainstream media. And I think they let themselves down here and I think they exposed a bias. And I was hoping we were moving away from that because it's so obvious and so easy for social media to blow up and expose it and say this is clearly biased. Anyway, we're going to leave it there. Very interesting debate. I appreciate you all coming on. You think the media... You think the media... I just want to be clear. You think the media is biased against white women? No, I think the liberal media...
1:00:02Piers Morgan:Just so I'm clear. I think the liberal media is skewed in a way that they cover these types of stories. And had it been the complete reverse of the story, then I think it would have got a lot more attention, a lot more quickly. Last month, it didn't get any attention. Yeah. And again, she just shows, she offers you the counter evidence. It's different. She proves you wrong with that. And then you say, well, what about it? Let me ask you. Piers, you and I worked at CNN. Let me ask you. Was there a video? Piers, Piers, you worked at CNN with me. Was there a video? And when you and I worked at CNN.
1:00:27Let me ask Alison. Because I don't know about.
1:00:29Piers Morgan:When you and I worked at. Hang on. Let me ask Alison. Was there a video? Was there a video of the killing? And was there an audio where it suggested a racial motivation? Yes or no? The crimes were not the same, so no. Okay. So if that's all you, if that's all, because you want to ask a leading question. And it didn't result in a death eye there. So go ahead, you got your answer to your leading question. It's not the same in any way. Okay. It is, because the only reason you think it's not the same, now you're exposing your bias, because when a black woman's throat was slashed by a white man, suddenly that's not worthy of covering.
1:00:57But you're here trying to discipline us and school us and school black people. and journalists on what you consider the left for not covering a story when you yourself were guilty of the same thing last month. The only thing I want to school you about, Alison,
1:01:10Piers Morgan:is the fact that I'm not far right. Other than that, you are entitled to your opinions, and I respect them, and I respect the fact - I don't know, Pierce. Huh? After this conversation - The trans debate kind of made me question that. All right, I've got to leave it there. I'll take my little far right skin - Thank you. On to the next debate. Thank you all very much.
1:01:35Piers Morgan:Hello and welcome. We're beginning with some breaking news. Woke is dead. The war on common sense is officially over. Canceled celebrities are emerging from Twitter jail. Virtue signalling has been outlawed under punishment of mass ridicule. And we are finally free to call a spade a spade. So what was the cause of death? How did the silence majority finally win? and what exactly is going to take its place. Woke is Dead is my definitive story on the rise and fall of woke, as well as the common sense heroes and PC villains who have dominated news and culture across 10 years of madness. It's also my personal roadmap back to a less divided world, a world where we can agree to disagree, where debate triumphs over censorship and where common sense is king.
1:02:23Piers Morgan:You will be shocked by how much you agree with me. Thank you.
From the publisher
Editor’s Note: This panel discussion was recorded earlier today - before the horrific news of the Charlie Kirk shooting.
The shocking murder of Ukrainian refugee Iryna Zarutska on a train in North Carolina has triggered justified outrage.
Furthermore is the suspicion that legacy media has been slow to cover the story to avoid inflaming racial tensions; a level of caution it seldom applies when the roles are reversed.
The response of conservatives has been to point out a double standard, citing nationwide fury over cases like Daniel Penny and George Floyd.
Joining Piers Morgan to discuss this is BET News host Marc Lamont-Hill, author and senior fellow at the Manhattan Institute Christopher Rufo, host of the Daily Wire’s all-new Isabel Brown Show, Isabel Brown andAnti-racism scholar Dr Allison Wiltz.
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