In short
Episode topic: Sir Ed Davey’s decision to boycott Donald Trump’s UK state dinner during Trump’s state visit, framed around Gaza/hostages pressure, plus debate on trans rights and women’s sport, and a wider argument about free speech and political “principles.”
Guests and backgrounds
Sir Ed Davey (UK Liberal Democrats leader, former senior minister; previously argued Trump should be invited but later declined the dinner). Panel includes Ben Ferguson (US conservative commentator, co-host of The Verdict with Ted Cruz), Winston Marshall (host of The Winston Marshall Show), and Louise Mench (former Conservative MP and Trump critic).
Key claims
Davey says he boycotted to pressure Trump to call Netanyahu and Gulf states to secure ceasefire, food access, and Hamas hostage release; he argues he respects King Charles III and wrote privately to him. He also claims UK law (Gender Recognition Act/Equalities Act and Supreme Court ruling) should be upheld and supports debate in Parliament. Ferguson/others argue Davey is evasive on whether women can have penises and that Labour/UK politicians become sycophantic when in power.
Notable examples
Davey cites Gaza images of starving children and “emaciated hostages,” and says he’s never been on the “top table.” Panel references Yvette Cooper’s “11-second” handshake with Trump and past Labour/Liberal Democrat criticisms of Trump’s “red carpet” in opposition.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOContext of Trump's State Visit
1:30 to 2:30
Discussion on the significance of Trump's state visit to the UK.
“You're not the first Liberal Democrat leaders to do it.”
Sir Ed Davey's Reasons for Boycott
2:30 to 6:30
Sir Ed explains his decision to boycott the state dinner and its implications.
“He could not only just ring up Netanyahu, but he could ring up the Qatari government and the other governments of the Gulf states and say, get Hamas to release hostages.”
Debate on Engagement with Trump
6:30 to 9:30
Piers and Sir Ed debate the pros and cons of engaging with Trump at the dinner.
“I mean, I think what's happening in Gaza...”
Gaza Crisis and Trump's Influence
9:30 to 12:20
Discussion on the Gaza crisis and the potential influence of Trump on it.
“Now I'm stuck down a rabbit hole filled with images of alarmingly graphic sores in various stages of ooze.”
Critique of Political Responses
12:20 to 14:00
Critique of the reactions of Labour leaders to Trump's visit and the implications.
“because he has the power to get the hostages release and to end the humanitarian crisis.”
Debate on Trans Issues and the Law
14:00 to 22:56
A heated discussion on trans rights, women in sports, and legal definitions surrounding gender.
“has put tariffs on our country and hit our country economically.”
Reactions to Ed Davey's Interview
24:00 to 28:01
Panel discussion analyzing Ed Davey's performance during the interview and its implications.
“are Ben Ferguson, the co-host of The Verdict with Ted Cruz, Winston Marshall, host of The Winston Marshall Show, Louise Mench, former Conservative MP and Trump critic.”
Debate on Trump's State Visit and UK Politics
28:01 to 32:50
Discussion centers around the implications of Ed Davey's criticism of Trump's state visit and its political ramifications.
“Listen, I've made it really clear that if people, the vast majority of people will have the same gender as their biological sex, but a small number won't.”
Shifts in Public Perception of Trump
33:00 to 39:38
Exploration of changing attitudes toward Trump in the UK and the importance of free speech.
“Ben, my apologies for misrepresenting at the start there, Louise.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00That refresh you've been putting off until the right deal came along? It's here! Wayfair's Black Friday in July sale is happening now, so you can finally get the style you've been waiting for for less. Get up to 80 % off area rugs and up to 60 % off outdoor and bedroom furniture. Shop Wayfair's huge selection of styles and find the piece to fit your style, budget, and space. Plus, free shipping! Black Friday in July ends July 27th. Shop today at Wayfair.com. Wayfair, every style, every home.
0:30Piers Morgan:I have not stopped the king. But the invitation came from the king, right? Let me take you through my thinking process. Yes, of course it is. So you have stopped the king. Do you believe that women can have a penis? I've explained that I think the vast majority of people have the same gender as... Not people, women. Well, there are men who want to change and women who want to change. Can women have a penis? So what I'm saying here is... Well, can they all not? Listen, I'm... Why are you squalling me? State visits by world leaders are a ceremonial exhibition of the very best the British state can mobilize.
1:00Piers Morgan:There's palatial grandeur, royal pomp, a military tribute, or cat-by-glory a state banquet with the king to cement alliances and mutual respect. Well, Donald Trump's visit this week is steeped in historical significance. He's the first leader to receive the honour twice. You might wonder who on earth could possibly choose to miss out on playing a role in such a momentous occasion. The answer is Sir Ed Davey, leader of Britain's third biggest party in Parliament, the Liberal Democrats, who rejected the invitation and joins me now. Sir Ed, great to have you. Your uncensored debut. Been a while since we had a chat.
1:32Piers Morgan:You're boycotting the state dinner. You're not the first Liberal Democrat leaders to do it. I think Vince Cable and your predecessors did the same thing last time. What's the point of your boycott? Let's be clear, I actually think the state visit of Donald Trump should have happened. Indeed, I argued it. I think I was the first British politician, even before that famous moment in the White House when the Prime Minister gave the invitation from the King to Donald Trump. So I'm absolutely pleased that he's here because we need to influence him in any way we can, whether this is a pomp and ceremony that you were talking about.
2:06And I had every intention of going, partly because I respect the king so much, and I've had the huge honour of going to these events on a number of occasions before. But I also know from those events you don't get to talk to the visiting head of state unless you're on the top table. And now here's a secret, I've never been on the top table. and what changed my mind was over the summer when I kept seeing what's happening in Gaza with the children who are starving and you can see the skeletons with the children who were killed queuing for water and indeed with the emaciated hostages paraded by the appalling Hamas and I just kept saying and talking to my wife and saying I've got to do something and I've been raising it at Prime Minister's questions because I think our government's not done enough but Donald Trump is the one man in the world who could do something.
2:55He could not only just ring up Netanyahu, but he could ring up the Qatari government and the other governments of the Gulf states and say, get Hamas to release hostages. Have you? Well, I'm not President of the United States. Have you rung them? Well, I'm not sure they take my call. I think you know that... Well, you were at the state dinner for the Emir of Qatar, weren't you? Yeah, but they had... No, it's actually quite different. What's the difference? I'll tell you. And I've been to a number of state banquets because I believe engaging. As I said, I actually wanted him to...
3:24Piers Morgan:So why wouldn't you want to engage with the most powerful one? As I said, you don't get to talk to them. So why go to the others? Well, because I support the king, right? And I respect the king very much. No, you don't support the king. No, I've written to him privately. I've slightly struggled to follow your consistency. You know you don't ever get to talk to them. Let me help you. But the only person you're not going to go to and you want to publicly boycott is the President of the United States, who, by your own admission, is the guy that can actually most affect change. Yeah, because I'm on your show.
3:51I don't think you'd have me on your show or would have had me today if I hadn't done that. And that's because I want to talk about his power. And he probably watches your show. You're probably the one British show that he watches. And I think he, and indeed the wider public, and the pressure on this government is why I did this. He doesn't know who I am, right? I'm humble enough to know he's not thinking, oh, where's Ed Davey? No, but you have snubbed the king. No, I haven't. Well, who did the invitation come from? No, I've written to him privately. Who did he come from? The invitation. He came from the king.
4:22And what did you say in your letter of rejection? As you know, it's private matter. But was it specific about Gaza? Yes. OK. And has he replied? No, I wasn't expecting to reply. Listen, I think he knows, because I've been very privileged to have a number of one-to-ones with our monarch. First when he was a prince, and then now he's head of state. And I think he's someone who respects people's different views and is engaged in the politics. I don't expect him to say anything publicly on this Of course not. But I think he will respect my decision. And, you know, I respect him. But I do think the issue is this, Piers.
5:01Question. How do we get Donald Trump to do the right thing? I think you will agree. Maybe disagree.
5:07Piers Morgan:Well, I can tell you, and I've known Donald Trump a long time. We've had ups and downs, we've fallen out, we've fallen back in. I texted him with him this morning. Very cordial. I can tell you one thing. The leader of the Liberal Democrat Party in the UK publicly boycotting the steak dinner... He won't care. He won't care. No, no. The only thing he'll think when he sees it is, well, A, he'll say, who is that guy? Then he'll say, he's boycotting me, it's all about me, he's whacking me, big negative tick against the UK. That's all he'll think. A top UK politician is trying to make a name for himself, getting on the media...
5:41Piers Morgan:You've just said, you're on here because of this, getting on the media to make a point against me, Donald Trump. You know what he's like. Everybody knows what he's like. I would have absolutely... If you'd said to me, how should I do this, I would have said, go to the state dinner, right? Engage with him and his team as much as you possibly can. You may not get to talk to Trump, but you can certainly talk to some of his team. Well, that's an interesting point. My experience of statement is certainly someone in my area doesn't get to even speak to the senior. I went to the state dinner in Qatar for Donald Trump and I had a long chat with him, Elon Musk, Scott Besant, the Emir of Qatar.
6:16Piers Morgan:I can go on. You're very special. Not really. Everyone was having a chat. But you've already told me that you've been a big mate of his for years. I've never met him. And the point is, not being on your programme, lovely though that is, it's great to be on your programme. Of course. But the issue is Gaza. And what I want to do is I didn't want him to come to this country, and we talk about tariffs and other things and the pomp and ceremony, and not know that British people, and I think there are very many, feel that he ought to act. I mean, I think what's happening in Gaza... What do you want him to do?
6:48I want him to pick up the phone to Netanyahu and I want to say, stop the attacks, get the food in, get a ceasefire. I also want him... Do I agree with you? Yeah. Well, I think most bright people would that he should make that call. I think Netanyahu's abused the relationship that he's had with Trump, frankly, and in an outrageous way. But I also think Trump has the power to influence the Qataris and other Gulf states who have a lot of influence on Hamas. So he's uniquely placed in the world to talk to both sides, to get action on both sides? I don't disagree with any of that,
7:21Piers Morgan:and I don't disagree with what your view is of the current situation in Gaza. I'm just curious why, knowing how thin-skinned Donald Trump could be, why would you want headlines? You know, Sir Ed Davey, leader of the Liberal Democrats, snubs the King and Trump. First of all... The King, by the way... The King, who, by the way, is currently battling cancer. So you've chosen a moment to snub the King when he's very sick, but he's still getting up there to go and do this. and you're snubbing Donald Trump, and that's the only headline that's going to come out. And I don't think it's going to have anything like the effect you think it is.
7:53Well, first of all, I'm humble enough to know that he doesn't know who I am, doesn't care, and the fact I've got Liberal and Democrat in the name of my party probably means he knows I'm not one of him, right? So that's fine. But I have to question you on snubbing the king. I have not snubbed the king. But the invitation came from the king, right? Let me take you through... Didn't it? It did? Yes, of course it is. So you have snubbed the king? But as I told you, I've written to him in private, And I've had the real honour of meeting him on a number of occasions. Did you apologise? Let me... Did you apologise?
8:22I did say sorry. I wanted to come. Let's be clear. But for the reason I set out, that I didn't feel I could accept the invitation this time. But here's the point. I really, really wrestled with this one because of my respect for King Charles III. I talked to my wife about it over the summer in detail. I prayed. I'm happy to be a Christian. I prayed about it because it was one of the more difficult decisions I've made. I don't rush to these sorts of decisions. It's not the way I do politics. I actually advocate for him to come, right? So quite different from, I think...
8:55Piers Morgan:But that's what I don't quite understand. Again, you're happy he's come. You're happy that Keir Starmer arranged for him to have this state visit. That's all right. That's correct. You're happy with all this. That's all correct. Absolutely. But when he comes, you, Ed Davey, your contribution to the UK welcoming the most powerful man in the world with all the machinery, has all the pomp and ceremonies rolled out by the Royal... I've never seen the royals do this for anyone quite the way they've done it for Trump today. Your only contribution is to stick a massive two fingers up at it. Amazon Health AI presents Painful Thoughts.
9:28Why did I search the internet for answers to my cold sore problem? Now I'm stuck down a rabbit hole filled with images of alarmingly graphic sores in various stages of ooze. I can clear my search history, but I can never unsee that.
9:46Piers Morgan:Don't go down the rabbit hole. Amazon Health AI gets you the right care fast. Health care just got less painful. Well, let me take you through the argument again, if I may. I know the argument, but that's how it's going to be portrayed. I've agreed with everything you've said, right? Everything you've said about my permission, but this one thing. I know, having gone to a number of state banquets, that I wouldn't have had a talk with the president, where I wouldn't have talked to his senior entourage. I'd have had a nice time. It's lovely. I really enjoy them. But I'm saying that I don't want to go to that because I want a debate in this country, a debate with you, a debate in other media that I've had...
10:23Piers Morgan:Can I throw a quizzical spanner into these words? You're bound to. In opposition, I remember Keir Starmer, 2018, Trump does not understand the words humanity and dignity. David Lammy, who is, you know, obviously was Foreign Secretary recently, wrote in 2017, I will be on the streets protesting racist and KKK neo-Nazi sympathiser Trump. Yvette Cooper, our new Foreign Secretary, said on X in 2019, so appalled Theresa May has given this man a red-carpeted platform to do this. Doesn't help Britain to be lavishing pomp on a president so determined to be divisive, childish and destructive. Now, last time I checked, Keir Starmer, David Lammy and Yvette Cooper have been competing in a sycophancy competition that we're now looking at, grasping the evil man's hand and doing the complete opposite.
11:16Piers Morgan:I mean, last night, Yvette Cooper, look at this. I mean, 11 seconds with Yvette Cooper, fawning like Baldrick. I mean, it was one of the most excruciating things I think I've ever watched. Watch. I mean, it goes on, watch, count. This is the Yvette Cooper who said, I'm appalled Theresa May has given this man a red carpeted platform, et cetera, et cetera. So my cynical part of me says, all very well, Sir Ed, because you're not in power. But if you actually were in power, would you just be another one of these turncoat toadies who would suddenly abandon all their thoughts about this and say, oh, President Trump, let me grovel for you?
11:59That's why I'm not here to defend the Labour government. It was nauseating, don't you think? Well, they can speak for themselves. 11 seconds? Here's my point as leader of the opposition party. My job really is to influence the government of the day. That's my job. Right. Because they're the ones who have the conversations, the meetings with President Trump. And I want them to raise the issue of Gaza. I want them to raise the issue of the hostages because he has the power to get the hostages release and to end the humanitarian crisis. And therefore, this is my way of trying to put more pressure on the government.
12:30I've done it at PMQs, I've done it in Parliament. I think in the media, coming on your show and other things, helps ratchet that pressure on our own government. That's the way I think opposition parties, responsible opposition parties...
12:43Piers Morgan:And to those who say it's just an opportunistic PR stunt, Sir Ed? Well, I disagree with them entirely. If they knew me and knew how hard I wrestled with this, they wouldn't say that at all. Do you like Donald Trump? No. What do you dislike about him? Well, I don't know him as a person. You're the one who knows him as a person. The bits that I don't like are his policies. Particularly, you know, I'm a British politician. My job is to look after my constituents and our country. Which policy don't you like? Well, three major ones. Well, let me just throw some at you. Tariffs. He believes in strong...
13:20Piers Morgan:Oh, hang on. Tariffs. OK, but strong... I'm giving you one. Hang on. I'm also giving Ukraine. I'm also giving Gaza. I've got three major issues. You can meet others. I actually like an American president who wants to forge peace, not war, personally. He's not done that, though. Do you agree with strengthening a border? Yes, of course. Do you agree with fewer foreign wars? Hang on. Do you agree with fewer foreign wars? I've opposed wars in the past, absolutely. So you basically agreed on some big stuff. Did you agree on the Iraq war, by the way? No, I opposed it. I'm glad we agreed on that one.
13:49Absolutely. So I'm not being inconsistent at all. What I do disagree, as a British politician looking after people who vote for me, is a president of the United States who, unlike any of his predecessors, Republican or Democrat, has put tariffs on our country and hit our country economically. Surely, Piers, surely it's my right and my duty to speak up for my country. So that's why I don't like him.
14:14Piers Morgan:What do you feel about the issue of trans women and women's sport? Because he's banned it. Yeah, I think it's up to the sporting bodies. What do you feel personally? I think it's up to the sporting bodies. Do you agree with it? Well, I can imagine some sports where it's very, very difficult... Can you imagine a sport where it isn't difficult? Chess. That's not a sport. It's a board game. Can you imagine an Olympic sport? Let me ask you... But I will leave... This is my answer to you. What's your answer? I will leave it to the sporting bodies to make their decisions. I think politicians who get involved in all that sort of stuff are arrogant, frankly.
14:47Piers Morgan:Well, in May 2023, you told LBC that women quite clearly can have a penis. Well, actually, I didn't say that. What did you say? I was responding to a question. What I actually said was that the vast majority of people identify with the same gender they had at birth, but there are a few who don't. Do you believe, for the record, do you believe women can have a penis? For over 20 years, we've had a Gender Recognition Act which has said that people who want to change their gender can do so. And that's been cross-party. And I think this is a difficult issue. It's actually not that difficult. No, no, I think there's a lot of toxicity...
15:25I'm sure there is, but do you believe that women can have a penis? I've explained that I think the vast majority of people have the same gender... Not people, women. Well, there are men who want to change and women who want to change. Can women have a penis? So what I'm saying is... Well, can they or not? Listen, I'm... Why are you squirming? I'm not squirming at all. I'm giving the answer that I actually gave on LBC, and the answer I gave on LBC was this, that if you have a different view of your gender from your biological sex at birth, then the gender recognition act gives you that right. But the vast majority of people, as you know, penis, have the same gender as a biological...
16:05Piers Morgan:I don't believe any women can have a penis. You seem to think that some can. Well, I go back to what the law says. The law is really clear. It's one of the reasons why, when the Supreme Court made its ruling, which some people didn't like, I said we accept that ruling. So you now accept women can't have a penis? I accept the ruling of the Supreme Court really clearly. I expect the gender recognition... Notwithstanding what you feel about Trump, do you understand people watch this kind of exchange and they go, what is he talking about? And they understand... I'm talking about the law. And Trump just goes, actually, men are men, women are women, and you know what, no more trans athletes in women's sport.
16:40Piers Morgan:That's it. And they think, if you were running the country, what would you do, Ed David? I don't think politicians should get involved in something. You do get involved in it. Listen, I think there should be debates on the laws. And one of the things I've said after the Supreme Court ruling, which I've said, is because of some of the issues that are raised in that, because it actually says transgender people's rights should be protected. I've read the 80-paying ruling of the Supreme Court. Do women in your family agree with you, that women can have a penis? Listen, people in my family agree with the law, and the law, whether it's gender recognition, out of the Equality Act or the Supreme Court's ruling on how those two acts relate together.
17:19My wife's a lawyer and she believes I'm holding the law. Have you ever met a woman with a penis? No. There we go. What does that tell you? But the point I'm making is, as a legislator... My only point to you for doing this...
17:35Piers Morgan:I'm not trying to got you. It's just, I just feel like this whole woke thing about particularly on the trans issue, And I support trans people's rights to fairness, equality, safety. So do I. We're in total agreement. 100%. You have to start from a position of understanding biology and basic science, which is men are men, women are women. Women don't have penises. It's interesting you say that, because actually that's the answer I've given you. I've said you start with the biology... So why can't you just be bold enough to go, you know what? I've thought about my answers. Like Sakir. Sakir went from saying the same kind of stuff as you, then he went to 99 % of women don't have penises, and eventually he agreed none of them do.
18:16Piers Morgan:You seem to be still hesitant on the exact percentage of women who have penises. Quite the contrary. What I'm telling you... What percentage do you think do? What I'm telling you is the law of our country, and I uphold the law of our country. It's one of the reasons why some people didn't like... The law of the country is now that men are men and women are women. The law of the country is what the Supreme Court says on the basis of the Equalities Act and the Gender Recognition Act. and having read their ruling, I think we should stick to their ruling. So what does that mean, though? But it does actually leave a number of issues which the regulators are going to put right.
18:50I've actually said we should have a full debate about this in Parliament because the Supreme Court... But what's the debate, Ed? Well, in how you make sure that transgender people and people, women and men who don't... whose biological sex is the same as the gender they have, that their rights should be debated to make sure we uphold all people's rights. One thing I'm sure you agree with is we want a society where we don't have toxic debate, where we look after all people fairly. Just as you said, and I completely agree with what you said about...
19:24Piers Morgan:Do you know what creates toxicity, though, when you think that it's OK for biological men to compete in women's sport or go into women's spaces? Well, I think... That is toxic to many women. Women are like, hang on, no, hang on. But I also think you should bring in the sporting bodies, don't you? No. I think you just do... OK, well... I think there's a reason. Why do you think we separate the sexes and the Olympics? Well, I think the Olympic authorities with the sporting bodies should make the decision... But why do you think we separate them? The sporting bodies do, and I uphold that. But why is the Olympics men and women?
19:54Because they have different attributes, and the point is...
19:58Piers Morgan:So, what, what? The point... Do you accept that men have a superior physical advantage? Of course they do. Well, isn't that the answer? Well, sporting bodies sometimes say... But if you were Prime Minister, why wouldn't you just tell the sporting bodies, this is what we're doing? See, what people want and why people gravitate to Trump, they may not like him personally, they may not like the way he says things, but they quite like Trumpism in the sense of the common sense kind of view he has of these things, where he just goes, this is obviously ridiculous, men are men, women are women, and no, you can't have trans athletes in women's sport.
20:29Piers Morgan:And people voted him... But here's the thing, people having thought about Trump for four years out of office, then voted him back in bigger numbers. Because actually that kind of went, yeah, that makes sense. And I look at you and I think, here's a guy, a career politician, desperate to be Prime Minister one day, or why bother? And when I just ask you a basic biology question... I talk about the law. You really... You sound like you're, like, floundering over it. No, I'm not floundering at all. I'm just talking about the law. And I thought, surely, that's what you would expect a lawmaker to do.
Read the full transcript
20:57But the law is clear now in this country. It's settled. Yeah, and I've said I would be supporting the Supreme Court judgment. But when I say to you, can women have a penis, you should just say no. Well, the Supreme Court judgment actually has different interpretations and we need to make sure that in Parliament...
21:12Piers Morgan:But the interpretation I make from your refusal to say that is that you think they probably can. No, I think that's wrong to draw that. So they don't? It's wrong to draw that conclusion. What I have said is the Supreme Court has explained how the Gender Recognition Act and the Equalities Act work together. I get it. I get it. And I think that's right. But, as I'm sure you also accept, because of your support for transgender rights, which I applaud you for... Thank you. ..that we should have that debate in Parliament. Can they? Have the debate in Parliament. No, have a penis. Can women have a penis?
21:46Last chance. I want them to have that. Last chance to answer. Well, I think I've answered. I think your viewers will see I've answered. I don't think the viewers have got a clue what you think.
21:54Piers Morgan:Well, let's see. We'll see. We'll have a poll. Ed David, good to see you. Lovely to see you. Come back soon. It's not just how the news is told, but what's left out, which concerns me. And when a friend in the business recommended I try Ground News, I gave it a go. Quite honestly, I was impressed. It does something brilliant, which most news platforms are afraid to do. It's an app and a website that lines up coverage of the same story from across the spectrum, left, right, international, and lays it all out side by side. That kind of transparency is increasingly rare and is vital. Ground News helps you to dig in and find the facts by showing you who owns each outlet, what their bias is and which stories are being buried.
22:35Piers Morgan:It has an especially revealing blind spot feed which services stories being reported almost exclusively by only one side of the political divide. I want to hear every side before making up my mind. Ground News makes that possible and easy. It's independent, funded by subscribers and not corporate interests, just like my show. And it's a tool that puts the power back in your hands. Go to groundnews.com slash peers to claim your 40 % discount to the unlimited access vantage plan and see what everyone else is missing. That's groundnews.com slash peers. If you're stressed about back taxes, miss the April deadline, or your books are a mess, well, don't wait.
23:15Piers Morgan:The IRS is cracking down. Penalties add up fast, 5 % per month, and up to 25 % for not filing. Tax Network USA can help. They've assisted thousands of Americans, from employees to business owners and people who haven't filed for years. They have direct access to powerful IRS programs and expert negotiators on your side. Tax Network USA knows how to win. You'll get a free consultation, and they may even be able to reduce or eliminate what you owe. So don't wait for the next IRS letter. Call 800-958-1000 or visit TNUSA.com slash peers. That's tnusa.com slash peers for expert help on your tax. Well, joining me with an alternative view of this historic state visit are Ben Ferguson, the co-host of The Verdict with Ted Cruz, Winston Marshall, host of The Winston Marshall Show, Louise Mench, former Conservative MP and Trump critic.
24:10Piers Morgan:Welcome to all of you. Ben Ferguson, let me start with you. This is a man who wants to be the next Prime Minister of the UK. What do you think? Oh, you're on mute, Ben. You're on mute. Skeleton-free man right there. That's what you just witnessed. The guy that's like, I don't believe in anything. Just elect me to something, and then we'll debate it in Parliament instead of giving you my opinion on it. I've seen squishy leaders before, Piers, but that's got to be the squishiest leader I've seen in 2025 in the UK. So congratulations, golf clap, for that guy. We debate if they have a penis or not.
24:44I was waiting for you to ask him, would you make out with a chick that has a penis? I don't know how much more you got to be blunt with a guy like that, but the idea that we have to wait till we get to parliament to give you my opinion, isn't that what elections are supposed to be about? And this is the demise of the left, not just like in the U.S. where I am, all over the world. If you can't define what a woman is and then you say when you're pressed on it, well, we have to have a debate. Well, I'm going to defer to the court system. Then why are you a politician? Like, what is the point of voting for you?
25:18And also, I do think, and I'll bring Louise in here
25:21Piers Morgan:as the, I believe, still self-identifying woman. You know, that was sort of fascinating to watch Ed Davey squirm so much and just still refuse to just come out and say it, even though there's now settled law in the UK. And this guy, you know, he does want to be Prime Minister. What did you make of it? Well, this is the Liberal Democrats, Piers. No fence left unsat on. You gave him five minutes to answer a simple question, do you believe it? I almost was sitting there going, for God's sakes, man, say that biological women can't and trans women can, if that's your position, but just tell the truth.
25:56Right. Of course, women do not have a penis and men don't have a womb, and I'm always struck by how close we are to Monty Python's Life of Brian, where some going, Stan can't have babies, but he can have the right to have babies. I really hope President Trump wasn't watching that part of your show, because what is he going to think? I was cringing, to be quite frank with you.
26:17Piers Morgan:Well, and also, I mean, Winston, when I was talking him through the U-turns that all the Labour government top people have done on Trump, I mean, it is quite entertaining because they've all trashed him for years in opposition, exactly as Ed Davey. Actually, he was a bit more circumspect about Trump. But they all do this in opposition. But the moment they get a whiff of power, actual power, the genuflecting knows no bounds. And I thought Yvette Cooper's 11-second hand-clasping last night at Stansted Airport was really quite something. What should we make of this? Well, I mean, I make of it that none of these people have any principles and that we shouldn't actually take their word for anything.
26:58Although, I will say, I was a little pleased that they actually acted like adults finally when they came to power. And there's not much support for the Starmer government at the moment on many metrics or any, although it seems that maybe on his behaviour at the world stage he's been a little bit better. But I've got to talk about Sir Ed Davey. That was absolutely hilarious. And I think that why is it that we only hear about this guy and indeed the Liberal Democrats when he's making a total prat of himself on the national scale? He actually was dishonest with you. He said that he didn't say quite clearly women have penis, but Nick Ferrari on LBC did ask, so a woman has a...
27:39Well, actually, you know what, we've got the clip now,
27:41Piers Morgan:which I wish I'd had at the time, because it was... I knew it was right. Let's play the clip. I think we need to manage this and think about it and debate it with a bit more maturity and a bit more compassion. Well, that's what Sir Keir Starmer once said to me, and he never did answer the question, can a woman have a penis? Well, I've just answered that question. They can. Listen, I've made it really clear that if people, the vast majority of people will have the same gender as their biological sex, but a small number won't. So a woman can have a penis? Well, quite clearly. Quite clearly. Yeah.
28:18Piers Morgan:I mean, literally, he literally said it and then sat here and had the brass neck to say, I never said it, which is the other great trait of politicians. You know, you really actually, the key thing in this whole situation is that he snubbed the king. It's not that he snubbed Trump. He snubbed the king. I agree. And that's the thing why this is so embarrassing and actually a little bit humiliating for him. There's another bit, a dig he made in your interview where he sort of implied that Trump was neither a liberal or a Democrat. I remind you and your listeners that this, Davey, campaigned against Brexit.
28:53He campaigned for the EU to have more sovereignty over, or rather for Britain to have less sovereignty. And after Brexit, nearly 10 years since, he has campaigned against the democratic will of the British people. So he had quite some gall there to accuse Trump of being neither liberal nor democratic. And I'd also like to point out his point about the tariffs. Now, it is the case that Trump has given Britain a very favourable deal in the tariffs. He gave us a deal before he's... He hasn't even finished a deal with the Europeans yet, the EU yet. And he gave us a 10 % deal, which is far more preferable than nations around the world.
29:30And if Ed Davey took the care to understand why Trump was putting in the tariffs, the whole objective was to help the working people of America, to re-industrialize America, to bring onshore back jobs. He might understand that the same problems we have in Britain, the same problems we have in Britain, there are working people in Britain that over the last 40, 50 years have had their jobs taken away from. We've offshored a lot of manufacturing, a lot of jobs. If he understood that, he might actually think that such a policy might be suitable here.
30:05Piers Morgan:You know, it's interesting, Louise. I mean, I think you're not in favour of Trump getting all the pomp ceremony of a second state visit. Is that right? Not at all. That is completely wrong. I'm a dual citizen. I've got two hats on here. As an American, I find it frankly offensive that Ed Davey thinks he can tell us who we elect as a sovereign choice. And let me say that I voted for Kamala Harris. I am not a Trump supporter. I'm not trying to rewrite history here. But really, that's a sovereign choice of the American people. Keep your nose out of our business, Mr Liberal Democrat. As a British citizen, I am ashamed and embarrassed that the leader of one of our still major parties thinks it's a good idea to boycott the president of the United States.
30:47This is a state visit. He has his presidential head of state hat on. It is rude. I don't agree with you that the important thing is that he's snubbing the king. The king will get over it, quite frankly. I think the important thing here is that he's snubbing President Trump on a visit, which is very, very important to the UK for the reasons that your other guest just gave. The king exercised soft power so well when he wrote to President Trump and continued that correspondence while President Trump was out of office. That was a massive exercise of soft power, which has paid huge dividends for the United Kingdom.
31:22And if President Trump is watching, you are so welcome here, Mr. President. And I would say that about any president of the United States. If people could just wind their neck and keep their toys inside the pram, that would be great. In terms of Yvette Cooper, I think you're a little harsh. Look, time, great healer, lousy beautician. Like J.D. Vance, she's really got to understand that she is in government now, that she's changed her opinion. And what we don't need is British politicians insulting the president of the United States. Well, I agree. I actually, I don't disagree.
31:54Piers Morgan:It was the scale of the sycophancy, the 11-second hand clasping and slight genuflecting. Hey, it's Kelly Rowland. You may not know this, but I have eczema. So I get how it can steal your time. But why let eczema take over when you can talk to your doctor about ebglyss? Ebglyss, Lubrikizumab, LBKZ, A 250 mg per 2 ml injection is a prescription medicine used to treat adults and children 12 years of age and older who weigh at least 88 pounds or 40 kg with moderate to severe eczema. Also called atopic dermatitis that is not well controlled with prescription therapies used on the skin or topicals or who cannot use topical therapies, ebglyss can be used with or without topical corticosteroids.
32:34Don't use if you are allergic to ebglyss. Allergic reactions can occur that can be severe. Eye problems can occur. Tell your doctor if you have new or worsening eye problems. You should not receive a live vaccine when treated with Epclus. Before starting Epclus, tell your doctor if you have a parasitic infection. Paid partnership with Lilly. Respect your time. Ask your doctor about Epclus and visit epclus.com or call 1-800-LILLY-RX or 1-800-545-5979.
33:00Piers Morgan:Ben, my apologies for misrepresenting at the start there, Louise. I thought you were going to be critical, but you weren't. Ben, you know what's interesting, Ben, about the Trump Day visit? A, very few protests. I mean, literally just a handful of people running around with silly black eyes, right? Last time, mayhem, when he came in the first term. So I think there's a definite change of attitude towards Trump in the UK. Interestingly, The Economist magazine came out this week and said that whilst UK people generally don't like Trump personally very much, they are gravitating more and more to Trumpism.
33:33Piers Morgan:And that's why I went through some of the issues with Ed Davey. 36 % of Britons actually think that Trumpism, his policies, the way he sees the world, they agree with it, which is significantly higher than the number who like him personally. And this goes to my general whole belief. You don't have to like Trump personally to like what he does. Yeah. Look, I think now he's also a very different man than he was in 16. You were around him in 16, so was I. I think he's looking at the world differently. I think he's got the right people around him that are helping him. I think he generally wants to make sure that we're not starting wars, but we're making sure that people are safe and people are free and that people can say what they believe in and disagree with and have a grand debate.
34:16I also think that he understands that you need to have great relations with countries like the UK. I go back to your guest a moment ago, and look, real leaders show up and they lead. Fake leaders try to make a moment that they should be in the room, a moment about themselves and try to raise their name ID. He did that, but I'll make a prediction here. He will not be the man who leads the UK moving forward if this is all he has to offer. Because great leaders understand that if you want to be in the room with other great leaders to get deals done that are great for your country, and you show up for work, you don't run away from work.
34:54This is, I would argue, one of the biggest nights of work for both countries. You get in that room, you talk to each other, You build foreign relationships with one another. And then you have the groundwork and the foundation for other great things moving forward. And by the way, we don't know when the UK and the US are going to have to be like this on a national security issue again, like we were after 9-11. The leaders in that room, they're the ones that can trust each other. And the ones that aren't there, they're putting their national security at risk as well. So be a Yahoo. But great leaders show up, whether you're a liberal or a conservative, when things need to get done.
35:29in tariffs right now. This is the most important thing, I think, in the U.K. It's also extremely important in the U.S. Why would you not want to be in that game? I agree. I agree. I mean, the other... Get in the damn game or quit your job.
35:41Piers Morgan:The other thing, Winston, I think I'm really exercised about and I hope this comes up during this visit from Donald Trump, but also, Keir Starman, is free speech. You know, it seems to me... Y 'all got a problem in the U.K. right now. Well, there's a problem in America, too, Ben, with respect. You just had Charlie Kirk murdered for his speech, right? We had a comedian arrested by armed police for cracking jokes on social media. That was appalling. But what happened to Charlie Kirk is immeasurably more appalling. And Winston, it goes to the heart of what a democracy is. You know, you either believe a democracy is based on a bedrock of freedom, freedom of speech and freedom of expression in particular, or you don't.
36:22Piers Morgan:And it seems to me people have lost that ability to understand what free speech actually is. Well, the famous example here, I think, is you're referring to Attorney General Pam Bondi, who said over the last couple of days that there's free speech and there's hate speech. Now, I will note that almost everyone on the American right has come out and criticised Bondi for that comment. She walked it back on social media as well. Yeah, she did. Trump himself gave a pretty woolly response, actually. I didn't think it was a very good one, but it might be that he didn't land either way. Her talking about hate speeches is exactly why Britain is in the mess that it is.
37:01We have had basically 60 years of hate speech laws accreting, which have culminated, as you say, of Graham Linehan arrested upon arrival for three jokes that he posted on X. I would say generally the Trump administration have been better on free speech in Britain's free speech woes than our own government. And not only has J.D. Vance called out those who have been arrested in Britain for silent prayer, but they sent a secret delegation. The Telegraph reported on this. They sent a secret delegation to Britain to investigate the silent prayer issue that we've had. You remember at the various meetings, Trump's, it wasn't a state visit, it was a holiday visit up to Scotland about two months ago.
37:45Again, that came up. It came up when Bev Turner of GB News was on the Air Force One return flight. They had a conversation that came out about Lucy Connolly, the woman who was sentenced to 31 months for tweets after the 2024 riots. It does seem that the Americans understand Britain and Europe's free speech issue better than we do here.
38:05Piers Morgan:This whole issue of free speech is incredibly important, isn't it? Yes, it is. Absolutely. Look, as I've said before, Charlie Kirk, obviously I did not agree with his views, but nothing bad should have happened to him. And it is so sad that when he was killed, he was there under the slogan, change my mind. He was advocating for debate. And that is what is so important. And Trump is, to be fair to him, a real champion of free speech. And hopefully he can influence us in a good way during this state visit. I'm sure that he will bring it up and he'd be right to do so. Nigel Farage is right to bring this up in the United States.
38:46We always used to have free speech in this country. We should not have laws that criminalize hate speech. If I were in government, I would repeal them. They have been nothing but trouble. We have the armed police arresting a comedian, Graham Linehan, for jokes, by the way, about trans issues, and taking him off a plane with guns drawn. And yet we cannot get the cops to come around and police shoplifting, which is an all-time high in the United Kingdom. It's policing political speech. That's the problem, is the political speech. These laws have been abused. Tweets are worse than theft, apparently, according to this government and according to the Metropolitan Police.
39:24That has to change. And what we really need is a wholesale reform of the law. We need to get rid of the law that criminalizes hate speech. In the United States, racism, although bad and condemned, is very specifically protected by the First Amendment. If you want to be an idiot, go ahead and be an idiot. That's how you know you're free when you can say things like that. That's right. Unless you're citing violence and citing murder, that's not covered. Apart from that, all speech ought to be legal and then let your ideas condemn you.
39:53Piers Morgan:And by the way, that doesn't mean you're not accountable for what you say. So if you're a teacher and you want to glorify in the murder of a young man, it may be that your school board decides you should not be a teacher. And most people would agree with that. That's called accountability. Free speech is about... It's accountability for your actions, but that applies not just to your speech, but to your general behaviour and actions. My panel, I thank you all very much. I'm glad you were here to witness the interview with the man who would be our next Prime Minister. It was... And, Pierce, Pierce, I just want to be clear, you do know that women don't have penises, right?
40:28I just want to make that very clear. You can... I'm just going to check. You're a bigot!
40:32Piers Morgan:We're all clear, but I'm fairly sure that the leader of the Liberal Democrats is a little confused. Thank you all very much. See you. Piers Morgan Uncensored is proudly independent. The only boss around here is me. If you enjoy our show, you can ask for only one simple thing. Hit subscribe on YouTube and follow Piers Morgan Uncensored on Spotify and Apple Podcasts. And in return, we will continue our mission to inform, irritate and entertain. And we'll do it all for free. Independent Uncensored Media has never been more critical and we couldn't do it without you.
41:10Starting a business can seem like a daunting task, unless you have a partner like Shopify. They have the tools you need to start and grow your business. From designing a website, to marketing, to selling, and beyond, Shopify can help with everything you need. There's a reason millions of companies like Mattel, Heinz, and Allbirds continue to trust and use them. With Shopify on your side, turn your big business idea into... Sign up for your$1 per month trial at shopify.com slash special offer.
From the publisher
State visits by world leaders are a ceremonial exhibition of the very best the British state can mobilise, with palatial grandeur, royal pomp, and military tribute, all capped by a glorious state banquet with the King to cement alliances and mutual respect.
Trump this week is receiving the honour for a second time - but not everyone wants to get involved in such a historic occasion.
Sir Ed Davey, leader of Britain’s third biggest party in parliament, the Liberal Democrats, has rejected his invitation - and joins Piers Morgan to explain why.
Then Piers Morgan discusses the state visit with co-host of The Verdict with Ted Cruz, Ben Ferguson, host of the Winston Marshall Show, Winston Marshall and former Conservative MP and Trump critic Louise Mensch.
Piers Morgan Uncensored is proudly independent and supported by:
Ground News: Go to https://groundnews.com/PIERS for 40% off the Vantage subscription and find the truth mainstream media doesn't want you to see.
Tax Network USA: Call 1-800-958-1000 or visit https://TNUSA.com/PIERS to meet with a strategist today for FREE
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
