'YOU Are An Extremist!' Owen Jones vs Josh Hammer on Gaza, Nancy Mace, El-Sayed, Sharia Law & More

20:31Who to believe? Scholars who dedicate their lives to studying genocide, to studying the Holocaust.

20:37Josh Hammer:You and Kears are both wrong on your misunderstanding. Hang on.

20:40Piers Morgan:Hang on. Hang on. All right, Josh. Hang on. Josh. The point, the point surely is this, is that you can say they're wrong. But Owen is right, surely, to point out that a number of Israeli scholars have concluded that what's been happening in Gaza. is genocide. Who cares? Why would you not care?

21:01Josh Hammer:Piers, I live in a country, America, that is 50-50 divided on every issue. Why do I care what my very incorrect countrymen happen to say about any given issue, whether it's abortion, guns, who cares? These are debates that happen and I'm telling you that the people he's appealing to happen to be wrong. Can I ask you a question? Can I ask you a quick question? There is a massive misunderstanding on this panel right now about the law of proportionality, which has been invoked numerous times. Here's what it does not mean. Here's what it means. A lot of people hear this phrase, the law of proportionality, and they say that is not proportionate when, let's say, Israel takes out 50 ,000 Hamas fighters, whatever the number is, in response to 12 ,000 civilians killed.

21:44Josh Hammer:The number is not one-to-one. That's literally not the international law definition. The international definition is whether or not the military goal, the goal of the operation is proportionate to the expectation of collateral damage and civilian casualties. That is the actual calculation under international law. That is totally not what the prevailing understanding is. I think the understanding that has been presented here on this discussion today. So, based on that, based on... Can I... Sorry, you're just speaking at a huge length here. 87 % of those killed, according to leaked IDF estimates, are civilians.

22:20And what Israel has done systematically... I know you'll just talk over me. I don't know what Israel systemically does is it classifies people who have been killed as Hamas fighters. Now, there's been detailed investigations by the likes of Haaretz, the Israeli newspaper, which finds on an industrial scale, people who are not Hamas fighters, they're not militants, they're not fighters at all, are classified after being killed as Hamas fighters. That's how these bogus calculations which you keep coming up with are invented. Now, on the point there, just about the Holocaust scholars, the genocide scholars, The question you would have to ask yourself, surely, is this.

22:57Surely, surely, if people who are Israeli-Americans, people who are proud Jewish Israeli-Americans and Israelis who dedicate their whole lives to studying the Holocaust and genocide, surely, if they have come to this conclusion, you disagree, but surely these people having this whole body of work behind them, surely they must be a good reason why they have arrived at this conclusion. that is what you struggled to engage with and that's why with gaza i'm not struggling to engage i'm saying that they are wrong on the basic facts over 100 000 people violently

23:34Josh Hammer:literally none of this conversation we can turn back the clock on the show 15 20 minutes ago when owen first read out the definition of genocide according to geneva he talked about a deliberate intention pure the conversation ends there it literally ends there there is no deliberate intended. Why?

23:50Piers Morgan:Well, I think I would categorize it. I OK, Josh, Josh, I would categorize it as this, which is something that Donald Trump has said publicly, which is you don't need to blow up an entire apartment block to target one Hamas terrorist. I think what's happened is not that Israel has tried to kill every Palestinian that it can, because it clearly has the military tools to do so if it wished to do that. But I do think they have been unbelievably indiscriminate in their targeting of Hamas suspects, and they have killed a huge amount of civilians in the process of doing that. And we've seen the same pattern in southern Lebanon, and I think that there is...

24:30Piers Morgan:So whether it's deliberate or not could be argued by both sides. I just don't accept that. I don't accept that. I think it's complete bullshit to say this is the most humane, moral army in the world. And one of the reasons I say that, Josh... Well, Josh, Josh, Josh, Josh, Josh, let me finish my point before you respond. One of the reasons I say that with confidence is if the IDF had, in all its actions in Gaza, been the most moral army in the world, why is it many, many, many months after the supposed ceasefire came into operation that Benjamin Netanyahu and his government still ban international media from operating freely in Gaza?

25:11Piers Morgan:Why?

25:15Josh Hammer:I don't have particularly strong thoughts that one way or the other. They clearly think that it's compelled by national security. Really? If you feel that strong, I would encourage you to go to the border. You don't think it stinks to high heaven? I really don't have a strong feeling on that one way or the other. Really? I genuinely actually do not. I genuinely don't. Really? No, I agree about it. Could it be, Josh? Could it be, Josh? Could it be, Josh? It's an act of war zone. Could it be?

25:33Piers Morgan:Well, let me give you a thought. Let me give you a thought. Could it be because the IDF actually has committed a number of war crimes they don't want the world to discover? Could it be that? Could you accept it could be possible?

25:45Josh Hammer:I think it's a ludicrous suggestion. It's a positively ludicrous suggestion. I would encourage you, I've done this on the show before, I would encourage you, if you feel that strongly about this question, why don't you go, like, literally show up on the border and get your film, your camera, you've got a huge following. Because I won't be allowed in. Load up on YouTube. I won't be allowed in. No, no, but here's the thing. You clearly care about this because you brought it many times. If you care that much, go and expose to the world how the Israelis refuse to pull into Gaza. Go there with your camera.

26:11Josh Hammer:No, no, no, no. You don't understand, Josh.

26:13Piers Morgan:Josh, you don't understand, Josh. Josh, you don't understand. What do I understand? The international media are still currently banned by Netanyahu and the Israeli government from operating freely in Gaza. They're banned. I wouldn't be allowed in. I could go in with the IDF, who could show me what they want me to see, but I couldn't operate freely, despite the fact we are nearly a year into a supposed ceasefire. It stinks. It shows to me they have stuff they want to hide. And until they lift that ban, you cannot say, you cannot say, you cannot say, until that ban is lifted, you cannot say with any confidence that they have been the most moral army in the world.

26:57Piers Morgan:You have no idea, no idea at all. And nor is the world, because the media can't do their job. And it is shameful and unprecedented.

27:06Josh Hammer:Pierce, I'm encouraging you to do the job. Literally show up there on the border with your crew. I wouldn't be allowed in, Josh. That's the point, Piers. What part of ban don't you get? No, Piers, you're missing the point respectfully because you have a big platform. You can go there on the border and blow it up, expose that they're not allowing them in there. You'll make a big stink of it. But we know that. You'll get your wish. They admit it. We know that. They said it. They admit it.

27:29Piers Morgan:It's their official line. What am I exposing? It's their position. It's the official position of the Israeli government. Something to expose.

27:38Josh Hammer:You can make a statement if you care that strongly, because you seem to care a lot about this issue. I still don't know. I've just made it.

27:43Piers Morgan:I've made it on this show every week for the last year. If there's a ceasefire, let international journalists, proper war correspondents, go into Gaza and examine the IDF claim to have been the most moral army in the world. And the longer they are banned, the more it stinks. And the more my suspicion grows that they have not been the most moral army in the world.

28:06Josh Hammer:Hypothetically, if you or some of the journalists gets in, they're peers, and then is killed by Hamas because this is, after all, a terrorist organization, lest we forget, then what? Look, if they're going to get killed, journalists...

28:16Piers Morgan:Sorry, I missed you. Hang on. Sorry. Sorry, I didn't hear your question.

28:20Josh Hammer:The question is, Piers, if you or some other enterprising journalist manages to get around the nefarious IDF personnel blockade on Gaza and you get inside and then a bunch of journalists are killed by Hamas because, let's not forget, they are Hamas. They are bloodthirsty terrorists. Then what?

28:39Piers Morgan:Can I just respond to that? Well, the most moral army... Hang on, Owen. The most moral army in the world, the IDS claim and your claim, have actually killed more journalists in Gaza than we have seen in recorded modern history. A number of these so-called journalists

28:53Josh Hammer:are quote-unquote Al Jazeera journalists who are actually working for a false. I knew you'd say that. How many? How many? I don't have numbers, but many of them have been exposed. They've been demonstrated. You've no idea.

29:04Piers Morgan:I don't know the exact number. It's dust, it's perhaps hundreds. I don't know the exact number. 240 journalists in Gaza have been killed, and the answer always is, well, they were mostly Hamas. And when I say, well, how many were Hamas? They were. You have no idea. No idea. You have no idea. You have no idea.

29:22Josh Hammer:But it's just, Pierce, I don't have the exact number to prove your point. You have no idea. I have personally read dozens and dozens of these articles.

29:31Piers Morgan:I have not allowed in to investigate it. Well, let's move on. Owen. Yeah, I'm sorry. You got into a fascinating debate. We could debate that for the whole show, but I don't want to. Owen Jones, I think he speaks for himself. Lift the ban, let the journalists do their job, let's find out if they really were the most moral army in the world in Gaza. I suspect the longer this ban goes on, it answers its own question. But we shall see. History will judge. We'll find out. Now, Owen, you got into a fascinating online debate on Ex with Representative Nancy Mace over the weekend. She posted, every single Muslim holding public office in America is a Trojan horse and a threat to both national security and our republic.

30:12Piers Morgan:We refuse to be silent. You reply, this is a Republican congresswoman. If you spoke like this about Jewish Americans, she would rightly be regarded as a loud and proud Nazi. Islamophobist spiraling out of control in the US. She then retorted, if not wanting to be blown up, stabbed or ran by a car by a radical Islamist in the United States of America makes us Islamophobes and so be it. I mean, it was an extraordinary exchange. She went on CNN and was asked about it. Let's see what she said.

30:40Josh Hammer:Are you saying that anyone who is Muslim is a threat to this country? That's not what I said. And that's not what I said. Number one, I think we do have a real issue with radical. It sounds like that's what you're saying. No, I was talking about elected officials. When you look at what has just happened. So any Muslim elected officials, sorry to cut you off, But just to be clear, any elected Muslim officials?

31:05Piers Morgan:I mean, I've got to say, Owen, I thought that was a reprehensible, bigoted comment by Nancy May. She's been a regular on my show. I was startled to see her say what she said. Every single Muslim holding public office in America is a Trojan horse and a threat to both national security and our republic. And, of course, this comes on the backdrop of a number of Muslims winning power in America, from Mamdani to now new candidates like El Saeed coming through and others. You know, it was just pure Islamophobia. When people ask, what is Islamophobia, I say that's what it is. Amen. I didn't actually know she'd responded to me, so thank you for reading out the horrific response.

31:49I'd said the Nazi comparison. I think there actually are parallels, because if you look at how Jewish people were portrayed in the first half of the 20th century in a mainstream way in Europe, they were portrayed as dangerous violence subversives, the Jewish Bolshevik conspiracy. That was the whole Nazi stick. The idea was that these were the dangerous Jewish subversives who were trying to destroy Western civilisation. Well, now that is what is said by mainstream Republican politicians about Muslims. And we've seen Zohan Mabdani portrayed as, what, repeatedly as an Islamist, condemned, you know, linked to 9-11, demands that he won't turn up to the commemoration of or to remember those who were killed on the 9-11 terrorist attacks.

32:36This use of Islamists, this constant use of Islamists, the idea is that the Muslim community of... or communities of the US are a fifth column. They're traitors, they're dangerous would-be extremists, and there's no acceptable way for them to exercise their democratic rights. And I would note, they used to be a solidly kind of pro-Republican-leaning community. 70 % of Muslims voted for George W. Bush in the year 2000. I think many of them went on to regret it. But these are, you know, if you go, I've been to Michigan, I've been to Dearborn. You see the same white picket kind of houses. These are all American families taking their kids to school and all the rest of it.

33:16These are people who are teachers and doctors and factory workers and work in shops. The backbone, partly of what is often called Middle America. And they have been demonized and attacked in ways which is getting to the point of being actually genocidal in tone. I know, again, I'm sorry to say this about my guest, but I did my homework, and it's important to do your homework. But he is, again, part of the problem. He said about El Saeed, who got elected, that he was an example of America's domestic Islamist problem. He said, I want to get to America's domestic Islamist problem. He said he's a Muslim.

33:48Yes, well done, well noted. And you said he has a lot of beliefs you typically ascribe to a Muslim from the state of Michigan. You talked about little Hezbollah and little Beirut around Michigan, calling them subversive fifth column cells. and you said his victory was in the Islamization of America. I'll just make this clear. Abdul El-Sayed is not an Islamist. He is a Muslim. He is a democratic progressive. He supports LGBTQ rights. How is he an Islamist? What's the evidence he's an Islamist? What's the evidence he's an Islamist?

34:15Josh Hammer:Okay, if you let me speak, Abdul El-Sayed refused to condemn, refused to celebrate, excuse me, the assassination of Ali Khamenei because he said to do so would be to risk offending my constituents. He campaigned on his final day in office with Hassan Piker, who said that he would vote for Hamas a thousand times out of a thousand. Over Israel, of course, said that America deserved 9-11. Among a lot of other things, Hassan Piker said that Mao Zedong was one of the great leaders of the 20th century. What's the evidence he's in Islamist? What's the evidence he's in Islamist? Abdel Sayed has been funded by$115 ,000 of donation money that is tied to two organizations, CARE, the Council of America's Islamic Relations, and ISNA, the Islam Society for North America.

34:54Josh Hammer:Not ISNA. as well what's the evidence he's an islamist what is an islamist what is an islamist define an islamist let me talk just say what is it's not forable just say what is it is here peers like i can speak for a second care was named as an unindicted co-conspirator in the 2008 holy land foundation trial in north texas of the single largest terror financing bust in the history of the united states it was a direct a direct funnel of money from the holy land foundation based in the Dallas, Texas suburbs to Hamas. CARE was literally named by a federal judge as an unindicted co-conspirator. They were banned subsequently six years later by the UAE as a terrorist organization in the UAE.

35:32Josh Hammer:They are bankrolling Abdulaziz to the tune of$150 ,000 in dorm money. Abdulaziz's father-in-law, met by the name of Taibbi, if I remember correctly, is a founding member of ISNA, the Islamic Society of North America in North America. ISNA has longstanding ties to the Brotherhood, to Hamas. In fact, federal judges have actually said that there is a close nexus between how ISN operates and how Hamas operates on American soil.

35:56Piers Morgan:All right, so Josh, so Josh, okay, so Josh, let me ask you this then. Would you condemn what Nancy May said when she said every single Muslim holding public office in America is a Trojan horse and a threat? But would you condemn what she said?

36:12Josh Hammer:Okay, that's a wholly separate conversation. I do not agree with what Nancy May said. I don't. I actually had Dr. Judy Jasser on my show when he ran for Congress. I'm a big fan of his. I hope that he won his primary in Arizona. He unfortunately lost that primary. There are various other Muslim-led officials who I think are wonderful Americans who assimilate amazingly well into American... So you would condemn what she said, to be clear? I do not agree with how she said it. However, however... Is it racist? Would you condemn it? Would you condemn it? Hang on, Josh. Would you condemn it? She misspoke.

36:42Josh Hammer:She missed spoke.

36:43Piers Morgan:She overstated her point. No, no, I think she didn't misspeak. She didn't misspeak. She was very clear. Every single Muslim holding public office in America is a Trojan horse. I don't agree with that. And a threat to both national security. But do you condemn it?

37:00Josh Hammer:Sure, I'll play this dumb game. I will condemn it, whatever. Is it racist? It's not a dumb game. Here is what I... It's not a dumb game. No, because there's a much more important point here. The more important point, which the point Nancy Mace is very, very sloppily getting at, is that Islam and political Islam, a.k.a. Islamism, a.k.a. Sharia law, is irreconcilable with Western civilization, Western democracy. That is simply the case. That is absolutely true. That is the part that she was very, very sloppily getting at.

37:32Piers Morgan:Oh, well, she wasn't sloppy. She was very deliberate in what she said. I've criticized her a million times over the years, so I'm no fan of her. No, no, it should be very easy. It should be very easy to condemn what she said as bigoted, racist and Islamophobic. Because it was. It was. It was. But I would say back to you, Owen, that Abdul El-Sayed's victory in the Michigan Democratic primary has reared other things he's said, including this clip of him, where he seems to suggest that trying to ban Sharia law is racist. Let's take a look. We're sitting in a space, in a time, when I don't have to tell you that the same exact forces that drove native peoples from their land two centuries ago, destroyed Black Wall Street a century ago, bombed a building decades ago, and tried to ban Sharia law not a decade ago, that those forces are alive and well today.

38:36Piers Morgan:Now, do you see the issue with that, Owen? No, I mean, in various Western countries, you have Sharia courts. They're just not legally binding, and they shouldn't be legally binding, and no-one's suggesting that they should be, including him. He doesn't support Sharia law. What happened 10 years ago is Republicans in various states post what they called anti-Sharia bills, which were just introduced purely in order to tap into anti-Muslim prejudice because there was no Sharia law in any of those states. There was never any Sharia law existing in any states. Those bills were passed purely in order to whip up an anti-Muslim hysteria.

39:12And they succeeded. And that was racist.

39:16Josh Hammer:Yeah, these are prophylactic measures. Muslim immigration in America has increased at a dramatic rate ever since the Hart-Cellar bill in the 1960s. Pierre, do you know at this point a recent poll showed that 44 % of American Muslims support Hamas and have a favorable view of Hamas? That is a recent poll. There was actually another poll that came out about three weeks after October 7th that showed that 57.5%, give or take, percent of American Muslims support what happened on October 7th, 2023. When I grew up in this idyllic white picket fence setting that Owen is describing, I grew up more or less in that setting.

39:48Josh Hammer:And I grew up thinking that America was a melting pot. A lot of people assimilated, whether they are Jews, whether they are Muslims, or whatever. And that might have been the case. That is no longer the case. At this point, American immigration, American assimilation is fundamentally broken. And at this point, the second and third generation of American Muslims are simply not assimilating into America's broader civic culture the way that a previous generation was. That is why, again, to drive this point home, 44 % of American Muslims have a favorable view or outright supportive of Hamas. That is a U.S.-recognized foreign terrorist organization for the past three decades.

40:25On that, on that. It's absolutely astonishing. You're not in any position. I haven't seen that polling, and I'd be interested to see that polling, to say the least. You're not in any position to condemn anyone else for extremism when you call for large ways of Gaza to resemble a parking lot, when you call for the cleansing of Gaza. And you described the entire population of Gaza as deserving scorn and shame. You're not in a position to talk to anyone about positive extremism. And what's happened with America? Look, what happens is I try and say anything. Let's talk about the debate. Let's talk about the unrun textbooks.

41:01What's happened in... That Palestinian Arabs and Gaza are actually raised on. What's happened in American society is increasingly people like yourself are now seen as extremists. Polling in America shows that people regard what Israel has done as being a monstrous crime. More Americans don't think it's genocide. And what you have to now face is people think you are an extremist. They think people with your view who supported the wiping out of Gaza from the face of the earth, which is a much bigger crime than anything Hamas did. a much bigger crime, you think you are regarded increasingly as an extremist.

41:34And I don't think you're in any position to condemn an entire group within American society and try to, in a prejudiced way, and suggest that they support violent extremism when you literally support one of the worst acts of violence of the 21st century.

41:48Josh Hammer:I'm citing polls. I'm literally citing polls, dude.

41:51Piers Morgan:Hang on, hang on. Hang on. Let me ask Owen a question. Owen, do you support Sharia law? No, I don't support Sharia law. No. What an odd question. Well, why should it be tolerated out of interest in a country like the United States? It's never... Sharia law's never existed. It's never been illegal. You never had Sharia law. The bills were passed in order to whip up a moral panic in the United States around 2011, 2012, 2013. And the reason they were pushed by the time the Tea Party-type Republicans was to whip up a moral panic about a non-existent issue. That was the problem. And that's what they did.

42:30Piers Morgan:But there are now, in the UK alone, there are now between 80 and 100 unofficial Sharia law courts, right? And the reason I asked you is you're... They're not legally... Look, you're a high-profile... You're a high-profile gay man. And as you know, Sharia law, specifically amongst many things, prohibits same-sex sexual acts. What do you feel about that? But again, Pierce, look, you're a very intelligent guy and you know perfectly well that the claims of Sharia law existing in Britain in any legally enforced way at all is non-existent. It doesn't exist. There is no Sharia law. You have Sharia courts, but you also have, you know, other communities that you have, again, within communities.

43:14For example, you have a Jewish police kind of force within North London. It doesn't have legal powers on the same level as the police. It's a community patrolling organisation which doesn't have those legal powers. Sharia courts, which manage, for example, family disputes and other such matters, that's what they actually do in practice in Britain. They're not enforcing anti-gay laws. That doesn't exist in Britain. And, you know, I speak to queer Muslims, which I think is quite important to do because they're erased from the conversation, and they feel often deeply frustrated that in a country where anti-Muslim prejudice and bigotry has got worse and worse and worse, is that their kind of plight, if you like, or their position is weaponized not by people who want to advance LGBTQ rights, but people who want to demonize Muslims as a whole.

44:05And obviously, I want queer Muslims to be able to come out and be their true selves. Of course I support that. I want anyone who's LGBTQ to come out and be their true selves. But there's no Sharia law in Britain which is banning gay people. It doesn't exist.

44:16Josh Hammer:Owen should walk into Gaza. He should walk into Gaza. How would I do that? I am a gay man. How would I do that? Say, I am a gay man. See how you're treated. I've been to the West Bank. You will get stoned. I've been to the West Bank. You will get murdered. You will get murdered by the very people that you are on this show and apparently wrote a whole book defending. Just on that, just on that, I support the Palestinian people, and I support their right to exist. They want to kill you. That doesn't mean what the Palestinian people... They want to kill you. This is the problem. You know that, right?

44:43They want to kill you. We're going back. We're going back again to the genocidal mentality you have because you have a view of the Palestinian population as a whole. What's happened to LGBTQ Palestinians in Gaza is the same as what's happened to straight Palestinians. LGBTQ people in Gaza have been blown up by Israeli missiles. Their homes have been destroyed. Their relatives have been killed. They have been deprived of medical care. They've been reduced to living in tents and they have been starved. That's what's happened to LGBTQ people in Gaza. And Hamas is morally and legally corrupt. And the idea, if you speak to queer Palestinians,

45:13Josh Hammer:they are so angry about the fact that if you speak to a queer Palestinian, you will hear their fury that they are being used to ping for genocide. How many quote-unquote queer Palestinian Arabs have used to work in Toronto? What happens to LGBTQ Palestinians is not in any way a justification for wiping out an entire territory. And it is offensive to say that LGBTQ people should support wiping Gaza from the face of the earth because that will advance LGBTQ rights. It's ridiculous. Do you think this is about LGBTQ rights, what's happened to Gaza? Do you think that? I didn't even hear your dumb question.

45:47Josh Hammer:What was it? I said, do you think that Gaza being wiped off the face of the earth has been done to advance the cause of LGBTQ Palestinians. Is that what you believe? Do you believe that? Okay. Gaza has not been wiped off the face of the earth. 85 % of its buildings. For starters. 85%. Second of all, I don't particularly care because the goal of the Operation Gaza is to eliminate Hamas. Whatever happens to the quote-unquote empty cause is neither here nor there. So why talk about LGBTQ people if you don't care about them? I know you don't care about us. I know you don't care about LGBTQ Palestinians.

46:18Josh Hammer:organization that wants to murder you. And it's a little weird. It's a little odd. I honestly had no idea that you were a gay man. I had no idea. If you speak to LGBTQ Palestinians, they will say that their main issue is Israel's genocide and Israel's illegal occupation. I've been to the West Bank, by the way, as an openly gay man. I've gone around the West Bank as a gay person. I've met gay Palestinians in the West Bank, in Palestinian cities, I might add. And I also, by the way, I am an open queer person. I have social media profiles. And I speak to Palestinians in Gaza every single day, by the way.

46:51Every single day. They're well aware that I'm gay. They're well aware of... And they know that I pose a genocide. You are demonizing the Palestinian people as a whole in order to justify genocide, including by using LGBTQ people. Okay. They have the most radicalized population by any of the metric on the face of the earth.

47:07Piers Morgan:Okay, let's move on. Let's move on. I want to end by just talking about something slightly different, which is something that AOC, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez has said about wokeism. Let's take a look.

47:19Josh Hammer:Abolish prisons, abolish police, which is also positions that have been taken by a lot of the progressive candidates who have won. How do you get around that? Those are not positions that are supported by...

47:31Piers Morgan:Right. I mean, I think that a lot of these races, even right now, they'll have a tendency to be nationalized. But these races ultimately are local, and all politics are local. My understanding is that Francesca Hong has made clear her present stances to her electorate.

47:53Josh Hammer:Yeah, she's moved away from a lot of that.

47:54Piers Morgan:Right, she's moved away from it. And I have a local city councilman that has this saying, woke one was crazy. So, Owen, do you think that woke one was crazy? You were, of course, a leading light of woke one. Well, I don't know what you mean by, I mean, this is the problem. I don't really know what we mean by woke. I support equal rights for minorities. And on the issue there, because I think this was about the police and so on. I mean, I never said abolish the police and abolish prisons. What I did argue for, and I still argue for, is that we need, for example, with incarceration, mass incarceration, I think what we do is we lock up lots of mentally ill, poor people.

48:34In the US, disproportionately black people, not least because of the fair war on drugs. I think that has failed. I don't think that means nobody goes to prison. Obviously, I've never argued that. But, you know, I got beaten up by a Nazi a few years ago, a neo-Nazi. He got sent to prison for two years and nine months. I didn't support that. I didn't see... He'd had eight previous convictions. And I thought what we need instead is, for example, dealing with mental health issues before they become a crisis and often lead to violence, people often who've been abused as children, people who are traumatised by their experiences, people who, for example, have failed war on drugs, which I think hasn't succeeded.

49:09But also with the police, for example, what often the police are dealing with are mental health crises. They're dealing with people who are traumatised and they don't have the training often to do that. In the US, in a couple of cities, what they've done is they've trained up people who specialise in mental health to take some of the calls that the police responded to previously. That's taking pressure off, actually, the police, who can then focus on...

49:35Piers Morgan:All right, but I think what we're talking about with Woke One... Let me give you an example. If I was to say to you, what is a woman, what would you now say? I mean, again, I still believe in... What we're going to go down is that I guess the 2020... You want me to talk about genitals on national TV on a YouTube channel. Is that where we're back to, talking about genitals? I just think that whole... I just asked you... I just asked you... I literally just asked you what a woman is. Simple question. A woman is a female? What does that mean? A female. So a biological female. Yes, also. That's important.

50:11Also when he transitions to being a woman. Also what, sorry? Also people who transition to being women should be accepted as women. As people who transition to being men should be accepted as men.

50:27Piers Morgan:Right, so would you allow trans athletes to play in women's sport? Yes, but again, with these issues, There was what I think, for example, one suggestion was you can do it by, for example, by weight. Or you can do it by testosterone levels. By weight? Yes. Surely, Owen, Owen, Owen, Owen, let me educate you about biology and physiology. OK, here we go. Because clearly it's taken you a few years and you haven't quite got with the programme. When you are a biological male, you have immediately superior body mass, lung capacity, things like that. It makes you stronger and faster and more powerful than biological females.

51:10Piers Morgan:That is why even if you transition, you maintain, as Caitlyn Jenner has talked very openly about... The study shows that people in transition... You maintain a superior physiology. So my question for you is, by your yardstick then, if you would allow trans women to appear in women's sport, would you then make the Olympics gender neutral? Because it's the same thing. So would you allow the Olympics and, say, the World Cup all to be gender neutral? There's just... I think on this, firstly, people, again, there's been several studies that show when people transition that actually those advantages go, actually.

51:49But I think the other point is... No, completely untrue. No, Owen. Yes, there are.

51:53Piers Morgan:I'm sorry, you just lied. I haven't lied. You just lied. I haven't lied. You just lied. There is no... Owen, there is zero scientific study... Where were all these trans athletes taking over women's sports? Where were all these great successes? I mean, there was barely any. Let me explain to you. The United Nations... If I may, the United Nations said that I think in 2024, nearly 1 ,000 medals at all levels of women's sport were won by trans athletes, That's depriving actual women and girls of winning. It doesn't matter, does it? Well, it does, because what the argument there would be is that a trans woman would never, ever, ever be able to win any Megan.

52:41Piers Morgan:Owen, by your argument, if it makes no difference, if it makes no difference, would you allow the Olympics to be gender neutral? No, but again, I mean, with the issue of transport... Why? Why wouldn't you? Because we're talking... Why wouldn't you? Because we're talking about such a small, tiny, tiny, tiny number of trans athletes. No, we're not. Yes, we are. No, we're not. We are. I just never saw this idea that sports were being overwhelmed by trans. So just to be clear, then, just to be clear, you wouldn't want the Olympics to be gender neutral, even though you believe there is no advantage to being a biological male against a woman.

53:19Piers Morgan:I did say there was no advantage. I just said people who transitioned, that those advantages were eroded. And there was an actually... They are not eroded. There was actually very few examples... They are not eroded. There was very few examples of trans women... Any scientist or doctor... Who are thriving at the expense of... Any scientist or doctor... Any doctor or scientist will tell you that reducing testosterone has zero impact on body mass, lung capacity, and the other advantages that being a biological male have over being a biological female. Again, there were two studies. I can't quote them, unfortunately.

53:54I've tried to look them up, but unfortunately, Lewis, there's no reception here. There were two studies which looked at the erosion of the biological advantage. But I... Say it again, sorry.

54:06Piers Morgan:No, by all means, publish your own science about it. What do you mean? Sorry, we're speaking over each other. Sorry, Peter, say that again. Well, I think the bottom line... Let me come to Josh to get involved here. Josh, the bottom line for me is, if you genuinely believe there is no unfair advantage to biological males who transition competing in women's sport, then it follows de facto that you ought to argue that all sports should be gender neutral because the biology makes no difference. And yet the specific reason we separate the sexes in things like the Olympics and the World Cup and other major events in sport generally is because it is scientifically proven as an undebatable fact that biological males have a physical advantage over biological females.

54:58Josh Hammer:Yeah, Pierre, the only thing that I just learned from this highly unilluminating exchange with my interlocutor and yourself is that my interlocutor is not just intellectually corrupt and incompetent, he's also just mentally and morally incompetent. I mean, there are more problems here than meet the eyes. So in the last Olympics in 2024 in Paris, during the boxing tournament, actually, There was a biological female who had, I believe it was a cranial fracture. It was a very severe injury during the Olympic competition from a biological male, which is actually why the IOC has come out and said that they're going to enforce a chromosomal policy, like an actual biological policy, XX or XY chromosome, in advance of the Olympics in 2028 in Los Angeles.

55:38Josh Hammer:I also note here at the U.S. Supreme Court, we just had a case on this. We had a case involving transgender athleticism back towards the end of the term that just ended in June. It was a 9-0 case. It was a 9-0 case that, in this case, Idaho and West Virginia are not discriminating when they ban, quote-unquote, transgender women, a.k.a. biological males, from competing against biological women in athletic competition. That position was supported by the two most liberal justices on the court, Sonia Somio and Katajma Jackson, the latter of whom, Justice Jackson, infamously at her own Senate Judiciary Committee confirmation hearing for the court in March 2022 when pressed on this by Marsha Blackburn, Tennessee, infamously refused to say what is a woman much like Owen Jones.

56:20Josh Hammer:And yet even she said, even she said that it is totally fair to segregate, quote unquote segregate, I guess, based on biological sex and chromosome structure. This is an open and shut issue. It's an issue that the left, by the way, has politically been losing on in America quite badly. It's not exactly anyone's probably number one voting issue. It's not the economy or anything. But it's a massive albatross around the neck for the Democratic Party, for the left, which is probably why even AOC herself is taking at least some measures to dis himself from that political toxic. Yeah.

56:50Piers Morgan:You know, the bottom line, I know it is, as I've always said, I want trans people to have exactly the same rights to fairness, equality and safety that you and I enjoy. I absolutely do, and I really feel for the trans community about how they get exposed to so much mockery by people who promote this farce of trans athletes in women's sport. Last week I interviewed Martina Navratilova, who was so powerful about this. She said that at the peak of her tennis powers, she wouldn't have beaten the top 500 men in tennis, probably more. I think Serena Williams has said 800, right? There is no comparison between the physiology of these athletes at any level of sport.

57:34Piers Morgan:And when I hear people on the progressive left try and argue this point, most of America and most of Britain think you're completely nuts. Why not just say there is an advantage, it is unfair, I want trans athletes to compete in sport, but not against biological females, because that is as unfair as if they were doping. Because you know, Owen, and I know, and Josh knows, and we should all agree here, that is the reality. I think the issue that I generally have with this whole so-called quite tawny conversation, debate, which we've had now for several years about trans people and their existence, is it doesn't start from the basis of how do we...

58:15..how do we accept inclusion and work backwards from that? You know, if people who have made these arguments have started from a position of we want trans people to be included, not... I mean, athletics, again, or whichever topic we have been talking about, because, you know, the vast majority of trans people are not athletics, are not athletes. We're talking about 0.5 % of a very, very small minority as is. It's not part of people's everyday experience. If people had started from that basis, then we could have had a rational conversation, but that's not what happened. We had instead a debate led by people who just prefer trans people not to exist, and they wanted to just find...

58:53But I don't. I know, but I'm saying... I've been leading this debate. I'm saying this conversation about the likes of Donald Trump and the people associated with him when they issue directives... What about me? For example, banning trans people from the military and all the rest of it. No, I'm saying, but you're not running... I'm talking about the United States, the people who've run the superpower of the United States. And the problem is, generally, what I find with trans people is... When I say to you it's unfair... They're frightened to leave their home. They can't use public toilets. They're scared to use a public toilet.

59:21They face physical abuse. They face verbal abuse. They face discrimination in the workplace. And I just think the problem is the whole atmosphere and tenet of this conversation, which is focusing on... Which is what happens. This is what reminds me of gay people in the 80s and 90s, because it's always the focus on extreme, basically marginal examples... But Martina that rattle over is a gay woman. ..to talk about the whole community as being a problem. Martina that rattle over is a gay woman. No, I know that.

59:48Piers Morgan:This has nothing to do with sexuality. I know there's one of those various games, there's some gay people who... I'm not accusing her of this, who actually spoke about trans people, much like gay people used to be spoken about in the 80s and 90s, which I think is unfortunate. I just think it has to be on the basis of how do we maximise inclusion in society of every possible minority? And for trans people, I see... It's very simple. It's very simple. Owen? Owen? What is your solution? Owen, it's very simple. Trans athletes either compete against their biological sex. So if you're a trans woman, you would carry on, as most of them have done, by the way, previously you would carry on competing against other biological males which is your physiology which trans women were competing honestly i'm asking you a genuine question here because i don't know the answer to this which what sorry i'm asking you a question because i don't know the answer to what i'm about to ask you which trans women as trans women were competing against men i don't know which athletes it's everywhere it's literally everywhere in the united states the swimmer the swimmer the swimmer leah thomas became one of the most successful swimmers in America as a woman, a trans woman.

1:00:54Piers Morgan:That's not the question. What's the question? You said that trans women were competing against men, biological men. So I'm asking which trans women athletes were competing against men. You asked me. You asked me. No, no. You misheard me. They should. In other words, if you want to make trans athletes inclusive. They said they were. They said they used to be. No. You said they were doing that. I said almost all of the trans athletes that I've seen reported on, used to compete as men against other men. When they transitioned, they then compete against women. The common denominator, Owen, is they are massively more successful as trans women competing against biological females than they ever wore.

1:01:38Piers Morgan:Well, why are you shaking your head? No, because there have been very few, actually, trans women athletes who have actually, for example... I mean, has any of them won a gold medal at the Olympics? None of them have. or even a silver medal. Well, what would you do? Why do you think you know more than Caitlyn Jenner, who won Olympic gold as a male decathlete and now says to anyone who listens that if she was to compete against women, right, biological females, she would destroy them? Why would you know more than her? I mean, Caitlyn Jenner, look, I'm not on the same page as Caitlyn Jenner in a lot of things.

1:02:15She's a pro-Trump Republican. So just generally, Obviously, lots of other trans... So? Because I don't think she represents the consensus of what trans people would say.

1:02:24Piers Morgan:Why do you know more than Martina and her rattle over? I've not claimed to. I'm just saying the very, very few trans athletes who actually do compete, full stop, and that this has been, you know, an issue which is affecting, what, 0.5 % of trans people, which has been used to treat trans people as a whole as a problem. Because all we've had a focus on is trans people... as predators and trans people as athletes cheating. OK, but that argument... Yeah, it's... That argument doesn't work with people like me, though, because I'm somebody who doesn't fit that category. No, I say that. Well, move on.

1:03:01No, but I ask you... You've made it clear.

1:03:03Piers Morgan:No, no, but you never talk about... You think it's fair. Can I ask you... I think it's unfair. Can I ask just one thing to you? Because you do actually do a range of... You know, you talk about a range of topics in this programme. I do really appreciate that. But could you not do more on the experiences of trans people who face abuse in the street, who feel scared even to use toilet facilities. Here's my biggest problem. If you talk more about those issues... Owen, Owen, let me answer. My biggest problem with so-called trans allies like yourself is that by perpetuating the myth that there is no unfair advantage for trans athletes in women's sport, you are directly amplifying the mockery that then comes trans people's way.

1:03:45Piers Morgan:and actually it would help the trans community enormously. If people like you said, you know what, I got this wrong, actually there is an unfair advantage, how do we make trans athletes inclusive in sport? And here's my answer. That's not why trans people under attack. Hang on, they either compete against their biological sex or they compete in a new category. And that is the way to get through this. But as long as you try and tell us that black is white or white is black and there's no advantage, advantage, no chromosomal advantage, then I'm afraid you will continue to be part of the mockery that goes trans people's way.

1:04:22Piers Morgan:That's incredibly unfortunate. It's not an issue. By the way, it's this idea that I've been standing from the rooftops talking about this as an issue. What I've been talking about is trans people should be accepted at a time when hate crimes against trans people have escalated, when they're facing discrimination against... They should absolutely They should be given the same rights. And now in Britain, there's an effort to ban them. All right, I'm going to end it by saying this. They should be... Just to be clear, trans people should get exactly the same rights as you and me, but not at the expense of eroding women's rights to equality, to fairness and safety.

1:05:02Piers Morgan:And that's my final thought on it. You don't agree, and that's fine, but that's what it boils down to. Thank you both very much for a very interesting debate. I appreciate it. Thank you, Chris.

1:05:41Thank you.