Babies, The ‘Burbs, and Your Friends And Neighbours. With guests Elisabeth Moss, Lisa Kudrow and Michael Patrick King

22:31There's so much more that's coming that's going to be revealed. And with Leslie Odom Jr.'s character as well. And that's kind of exciting because there's kind of a whole other, I think, layer, many layers to the show that people are going to continue to discover and talk about. But yeah, there's really, we did a panel with Corey the other day in New York and there was like nothing he could answer. We were like, anyway, I guess you could talk about your character's name and what he does for a living. And that's about it. Yeah, and the Greek poetry. And the Greek whatever it is. Yeah, Catullus, I think it is.

23:03Yeah, Catullus. I never really understood what it was. It was like, on one level, it's also a big genre piece. It's a thriller. It's a proper thriller. Twists and turns. Yeah. Loads of surprises, murders, et cetera. You're kind of smuggling in loads of themes about as well, aren't you? As you said, class, abuse, control, the patriarchy maybe. Is that what, again, what appealed to you? It's a thriller, but it also has a lot going on in terms of the themes. it's disgusting yeah i love doing things where there's entertainment on the surface fun some deliciousness this is obviously more than more of that than say handmaid's tale but there's a lot more fun um but then when you sort of trojan horse deeper ideas and themes and i think that for me is what i like as an audience member as well or a viewer because you get to take what you want from if you just want to have fun and just watch a like a murdery soapy fun sexy thriller then like great you're gonna have a great time if you do appreciate maybe having a little bit more of a look a little deeper at something or at characters or flaws or humanity then like we have that too i i like that i think that that's that for me is what i like to watch i should say my favorite tv show of all time is the west wing which i re-watch broadly speaking every year yeah there must have been a point because you've been in so many great shows and films and whatnot since then but that was there a point when you were working on the west wing where you were like, I am never in my life going to get scripts this good because they're basically like little 45-minute plays each week.

24:34Yeah, I think that's... Because they're extraordinary. Yeah, I think that that is what you get with Aaron Sorkin. You know, I had this incredible gift of having him be like one of the first writers that I got to work with and portray or whatever, ring to life. And that was just, I mean, yeah, it doesn't really get better than that, you know? I mean, and I don't think there's ever been a show again like that show. You know, and I can say that because I'm not, I wasn't a producer on it. I wasn't on every episode by any means. So I feel like I can talk about it in a way that is a little bit more objective than some of the other shows I've done.

25:10And I don't disagree with you. It's funny, I think there's, I think British, not to generalize, but I do think there's a big fan base here for that show. Right? Would you agree? Oh, definitely. Yeah, I think so, right? because I definitely hear about it a lot here. Also, you guys just have good taste. We did a discussion recently with our listeners about the best detective characters in history, and I think Top of the Lake is one of the greatest of all characters. Now, I think it's about nine years ago since you did the second series in 2017. Yeah, I guess so. So you could do another. No, it was 20, well, it might have come out in 2017.

25:47Oh, maybe another. because nowadays shows come back after 10 years the comeback is back after 10 years thank god you know that's my favourite TV show is it really? are you kidding?

25:57Steph:so when we talked about it I was like I feel like this is so the female version of Curb I feel that's what we were saying and I was so there for it because like you were saying all the things you want to say she gets to say them she's just so genius and all the supporting characters as well and just I feel like it's one of those things where you're like we're never going to get another season of that like it's just never going to happen and the fact that they actually went and did it and they're giving it to us is like the coolest thing ever I know it's such a gift we're interviewing Lisa Kudrow on Wednesday so if you have anything you want to ask her let us know I just got chills yeah it's incredibly exciting yeah I mean obviously I want to ask if they're going to do another one yeah I want another one now I haven't watched this one and I want another one yeah before the 10 year gap it would be great but if she wants to wait 10 years that's fine we just want another one we want the commitment just a commitment that's all no timeline it's fine but do you think Jane Campion might be up for doing another series I keep meaning to ask her about it it's so funny it literally has come up three times very recently yeah yeah we've always kind of not always I should say but there have been times when we've you know kind of talked about it and a long time ago there was an idea for it and then you know we all kind of went on to other things but i would be so open to it and to return to that character would be so cool and i love the long gap yeah as a viewer i know it sucks but i love it i think it's really fun to have that like you know like absolutely i mean it's yeah very cool yeah we did there's a show here called Gavin and Stacey that had a 10 year gap that's right of course yeah I think there's something very fun about that it makes it very special it is it's special yeah I think the character can live in people's minds and imaginations for that long and you change as a person or the actors change as a person and the writers change and in this day and age of everything being so quick and being this like instant gratification and there's just being so much to watch and it's just like there's just so much the idea of like having that yeah some like delayed gratification of it returning.

28:11Steph:Yeah, I'm so with you. Yeah, maybe it's just something about us. Completely. We are spoiled, though, at the moment, aren't we, with television? Because you've been at the kind of vanguard of this new age of television, first with the West Wing, then with Mad Men, but it feels like it's changed so fundamentally in the last 20, 25 years. Yeah. The point where it's just extraordinary, the level of quality that we have. Yeah. I mean, as someone who has said, you watch a lot of TV, and you must be thrilled by the amount of stuff that's available, both in terms of your entertainment, but also roles.

28:37Yeah, I find myself looking now Now, you know, I'm getting, I'm getting, I'm not old at all, but like I'm, I'm been doing this long enough. I've been doing this for 37 years. So I'm starting to be able to really look back on a career, you know, and I feel so crazy, crazy lucky that I came up at the time that I did and had these television opportunities that I had. because I am definitely old enough to remember when TV was not what you did. Right. It just wasn't, remember? It was like second fiddle to film, wasn't it? Absolutely very much second fiddle. It was like third after theater, you know?

29:17It was like truly third fiddle, and I remember it very clearly. I wasn't a child when that was happening. I was already working when that was happening. You know, I started West Wing when I was 17, and, you know, that was, it was like, oh, you had all these theater actors, and they were all these really good actors who were like doing television. I'm like, well, Martin Sheen's doing a TV show. He's a film actor. You know, and there was Glenn Close doing Damages. And, you know, it was like, right? It's my favorite show. Oh, it's my favorite. You know what? That's so funny.

29:46Steph:I feel like Damage is like one of the most underrated shows of all time. I can totally see that. And I just thought nobody talks about. I mean, so obviously. I know what you mean. Into like females, female role. How these great actors are. You've been so generous in portraying so many great female characters. Thank you. Is there any kind of woman that you'd like to portray? Any kind of, any sort of role that you feel like you haven't done? Because you've just done so many. You've just done so many. Is there anything you're thinking? Well, I'm glad. The reason I mention damages is because at the time, it was rare to have two female characters on TV.

30:28Literally, I was just saying. Yeah, like it was, that was one of the first. And so I'm saying I remember a time when that was unusual. And I remember when I first started being lucky enough to go to the Emmys, whether it was like, for the West Wing, you know, and, or early days of Mad Men, even when I was 23. And it was just it was unusual. And so I feel very, very fortunate that I got to I love television. It's truly my wheelhouse. It's what I like to watch. And it is what I like to do. I love the longer format I love spending nine years making something like I like that so anyway I feel very fortunate to be a part of this in the last 25-30 years on the character thing I feel I think the only thing I'm looking for which is hopefully going to be addressed in my next show is I would love to I miss the comedy of Mad Men and the comedy of West Wing you know like I miss when you went to read through of Mad Men.

31:26We had to read through every episode. It was a comedy hour. You would have thought we were making a comedy. It was hilarious. Nothing but laughs for an hour. And I miss that. Like, I obviously, there's not a lot of laughs on Handmaids, despite the fact that, you know, I, you know, I'm not going to say anything I'm going to get in trouble for. Stop that sentence right there. Not a lot of room for laughs, let's just say. But I, so I miss that, and then West Wing is hilarious. So I miss that, and I'm hoping on my next show which is conviction which is david shore who did house oh yeah we love how yeah so like you know that character he was so funny and i there's definitely a lot of that kind of humor in the show that we're seeing so far we only have a couple scripts but um that's the kind of thing i'm excited yeah like i want to get back into a little bit like i laughed out loud when i read that first script and i i miss doing that would you do an out and out comedy like you know like a half hour I'd love to I would absolutely love to I'd love to do I mean I don't think I'm Lisa Kudrow talented in the sense of that's a very specific genius but I'd love to be like the supporting character on something like that you know I'd love to be a guest star whatever that's my favorite kind of show like I love the comeback Veep like those are my shows so Curb you know so that's something that I would love to do for some reason I'm not the first person that comes to mind.

32:53Maybe all those years of The Handmaid's Tale. Yeah, people who've seen... I know. I know.

32:59Steph:Like, guys, come on. Yeah. Not that serious. Boyd, you've got one job now. Speak to Lisa Kudrow. Yeah, yeah. Get Elizabeth Moth in the series that we don't have yet, but we're going to get you in it. Tell her I'm hilarious. You are. She's like the funniest person we've ever had. Okay, thanks. It's done. Yeah, Boyd will make it happen. I appreciate it. Thank you. When I'm back here talking about my comedy, when you guys started it. Well, Elizabeth, thank you so much for joining us on the show. That's it. I want to talk about TV more. I'd rather talk about TV than do whatever I'm doing next. Okay, that was Elizabeth Moss, as you can hear, becoming best friends with Steph.

33:37Oh, God.

33:38Steph:She was a great woman. She's a woman's woman. She was great. She was a great woman. You've said she's a woman's woman many, many times. You have. Okay, but she is, but I'm trying to make, do you know why I'm saying it? Trying to make us feel better. I am. If I'm being perfectly honest, I'm just trying to make you feel better because I know that James felt that she hated him. It's understandable, though. Like, I get it. She came on to talk about a women's show, and I'm honest. And we were here. And you were here, and that's what it is. She was faced with the patriarchy in the form of two bald men.

34:05Yeah. Yeah, I mean... It's fine.

34:07Steph:It's fine. It's fair. Shall we talk about what we've been watching? Yes. Well, I've been watching... You see, I dutifully... Oh, God. Knowing that... Here we go. Yeah, knowing that Mossy was coming in on Monday morning, I dutifully watched the rest of... of Imperfect Women on Sunday night staying up quite late and after by the way I've been to Wembley and back to watch my football team Arsenal get beaten by Manchester City 2-0 and you know anyone who's ever been to a cup final at Wembley knows what a fucking nightmare it was coming 80 ,000 people coming back on the same trains it was like a hell hole and then I got home and I thought do you know what I'll do I've gone and watch Imperfect Women because I have to finish the whole thing just you know I think just as a matter of professional pride professional pride you're the best thank you anyway and also you'd had to endure the text but I plus this as well no you'd had to endure the text conversation where I was explaining about For All Mankind but we can't get into that now let's not go back we've explained that did we do that in Plus?

35:06we did that on Pilot Plus yes if you do not subscribe to Pilot Plus Steph's Steph's endeavour to try and watch For All Mankind is worth the subscription alone so do go and sign up now look up look up FAM an American sitcom FAM all caps if you want to see not the show that we reviewed in the end anyway I was happy to watch the rest of Imperfect World because I enjoyed it I liked it and let me say this

35:31Steph:I'm just going to say I've got to interrupt you okay I said on the pod okay I'm not doing a complete reverse for it because I said on the pod look maybe it gets better because I'd only watched one episode and you know I'm a hater of just watching one episode so it's not I just didn't I was worried Beep. Beep. How annoying. Okay, I'm Steph Sealand, and I will change my opinion if I beat the celebrity. God, I hate myself. Go on, Boyd. Anyway, the point is that I genuinely think the series gets better and better and better because, as she puts it in the interview, the Trojan Horses is this big, glitzy, shiny, LA-based, you know, loads of kind of like property porn where all the characters live, apart from Elizabeth Moth's character, who lives in a normal kind of house with her husband and kids.

36:22But it's a lavish production. It's a thriller. It's glossy, glitzy, etc. But actually, it's about a lot of stuff as well. And it becomes more and more about stuff as it goes on. It's about a lot of stuff.

36:36Steph:Well, yeah, you know, abuse, coercive control,

36:43toxic masculinity, which is such a cliche in and of itself. I was trying to think of another phrase but I can't. But it's also about, which I find quite interesting, which is that the kind of three-fold friendship dynamics and how alliances and betrayals and confidences work. And we talked about this when we reviewed it. Mike White depended it very well on The White Lotus. The idea that the second that one of the three isn't there, the dynamic shifts in interesting ways. Exactly, yeah. So I think in the end it's really good and you can see why. It has similarities to other shows that we've done, you know kind of female centered groups of friends where there's a murder mystery element involved it's a big little lies it's almost a genre in itself now this kind of like female led whodunit essentially but I think the it ends up being really satisfying the whole show and there's some brilliant there's some brilliant kind of tete-a-tetes going on that her character gets involved with so yeah I really liked Perfect Women see what he's doing there he's trying to muscle in draw Mossy away from you I know

37:43Steph:I'm going to watch the rest of it so that when we're on our podcast together we can talk about it how brilliant she is and then I wanted to mention we did a kind of mini review didn't we of SNL UK we did on Plus but in case for those people who don't well okay okay to this point I did not watch it but what I did do is I went on YouTube and I watched the skits that they released on YouTube which included Tina Fey's opening monologue and the cold open skit about Keir Starmer I watched that as well I have never I'm so thank you for doing that you're very welcome and I also saw the one where they're trying to ruin the internet so I saw that one as well which was the first one I saw where we are the people responsible for ruining the internet I thought that was well observed and funny and I thought it worked particularly well because they're English I thought if you transplant that exact sketch to an American bunch of comedians I'm not sure well for me it doesn't land in the same way so I thought that was good the cold open one which Donald Trump retweeted yes I didn't love that I didn't find that I felt like that was a little bit low hanging fruit like it was topical but it felt a bit tame there was nothing there that really thought oh wow that's great writing that I thought was a bit of a let down Tina Fey is a legend and there were some great parts to that opening monologue I thought it was hit and miss but there was some hits the Graham Norton bit was a lot of fun I liked the bit when he was going through all the British culture moments that was good but apparently the best skit was the Junket skit which isn't online so I haven't actually been able to see that No, they haven't put that up.

39:14I thought that was the cleverest.

39:15Steph:And that's the one you'll enjoy the most. That's the one I think I will enjoy the most. Well, the best bit is the Last Supper bit where they have the Diana. I did see that. I did actually watch that. I thought that as a bit, as it were, again, I was a bit like, okay, I'm not feeling this. But the guy doing Princess Diana was fucking incredible. That was so funny and so well observed. He was a massive highlight. He's brilliant. But as other people have said before, and I said as well, it is the best Diana I mean genuinely better than the ones from the crowd yeah it's the fluttering and the head movement it's just so good genius he's the star I'm fair to pick out but he I've picked him out he's the star of the show I think for me so far only after anyone by the time this goes out of course episode 2 of it with Jamie Dornan as the guest host oh is it Jamie Dornan yeah Jamie Dornan he's good he'll be up for a laugh so you know I've seen the trailer for it with him and it's good I just think but the bottom line is I mean the fact that you didn't hate it is something because you hate actual SNL American SNL I do detest SNL I really do I know I hate it like when it has great skits and it does have some great skits but I find like 90 % of them to be almost physically painfully unfunny yeah what was interesting was that they followed the format of the American one even down to so the opening cold open which as you said was kind of on and off but they tend to open more often than not I would say in recent years with a political cold open so it's often a Trump a sketch or whatever because they have some a guy who does a brilliant Trump impersonation so it's usually the kind of political and I agree with this it wasn't the greatest but I still think it was pretty good I thought it was pretty funny and the fact that Trump did put it on his whether it's called Truth Social whatever his fucking thing is was incredible really for them I mean talk about any publicity is good publicity but I think in this case it's true and then to the set the design the set design the way they bring in the band just the whole kind of format of it is very very huge very closely to the American SNL and I've had conversations with people who've gone why have they done it like that why do they have an American host why is it so American in the style and look of it and I'm like because SNL is whether you hate it or not it's established it works pretty well it's a format that works yeah the format does work it has gone on for literally 50, 60 years.

41:41So I was expecting them to do exactly that, which is to reflect the format of the original. But I do think, I would say is, I watch most SNLs on and off. You know, it was currently running on, the one with Harry Styles, which was like the second in the new season in America recently, was really good. He was good. But even then, there's always two or three sketches that don't work every single week. Agreed. And that's just a fact, because not everyone's going to like every sketch. But I actually thought this was more consistently funny, in a way, than the most recent couple of American ones I've watched.

42:13So the fact that James detests the American version and has found some sketches which he quite likes of this version is very promising. But I just think the whole thing is an incredible thing to undertake by Sky and to bring in a team of young, you know, they're not newcomers because a lot of them are on YouTube, they're YouTubers and, you know, the kids, they're down with the kids, the kids all know who they are. but I just thought the whole thing is such a brave bold undertaking and they've kind of pulled it off already because it's not terrible and it's pretty good Well that was the bar to clear wasn't it?

42:43It was pretty much As long as it's not terrible it's a win Yeah and it's got 250 something thousand views which I think is probably as much as it's going to get on a Saturday night 10 o 'clock on Sky One So in all in all it's kind of a triumph

42:54Steph:I think it's a triumph I think I mean yeah we did talk about this at length on Plus Yeah sorry if I repeat it myself No you didn't repeat yourself at all No need to apologise Thanks Kate thanks Steph did you say thanks Kev I thought you did I thought you said thanks Kev which is Kev and Steph together which is obviously no I mean and I think I said on there I do I personally do feel a little bit of a responsibility to get behind these you know I know they're known to the kids these comedians because they're doing something bold and I think they did a really good job and they were always going to get it was always going to get such huge criticism levelled against it so I was really pleased with it and as I said on Plus I really liked it and James you are getting an A star because I'm so pleased you did that By A star do you mean a star?

43:43Steph:A cookie I'm going to get you a cookie Thank you for watching that and giving your opinion on it as is what we do on this podcast It is, yeah Anything else we've been watching other than Saturday Night Live? I think I said I watched all of the comeback Did I say that? The comeback? Yeah you said you watched all of the comeback As we speak now in about two hours time I will be speaking to Lisa Cudrow and Michael Patrick. You will. I'm very excited about that. And who are you going to speak to? I'm going to speak to Noah Wiley and Catherine Lanassa for the pit. And who am I going to... Nobody. Nobody.

44:11Steph:You didn't want to send me out You've already hoped Yeah, you've already done your, you know, celebrity stalking for the week. No more celebrities for me. I watched this... Right. Okay, I'm just going to say I've watched the whole every episode of one of the things we're going to review and that took a long time. The correct show or... The correct... Okay, just checking. so that was that was six that was six hours so I didn't have a lot of time to watch something else but I did have either of you seen The Plastic Detox on Netflix no I don't think you should watch it that's an anti-recommendation from there I tell you why right because okay so it's Dr.

44:50Steph:Shana Swan okay who's a very well-known doctor if you she's on the Instagram she's on lots of things she's written a million she does Extinction Level Events she's got a great book called I think it is called extintment anyway and she is dealing no but she's she's amazing she's dealing in this particular show she's dealing with unexplained infertility of a number of couples and basically they go through she's it opens and it's talking about plastic and plastic is in everywhere that you cannot get away from plastic every time you touch something plastic you're absorbing plastic every time you drink something that's plastic it's crazy every time you plug in one of those air freshness if that's what you do there's plastic coming and it's honestly like everything you wear unless you're you know just you know knit your own clothes or whatever you're like it's less plastic everywhere so it scares the shit out of you every time you use your toaster everything's plastic um toaster like you know because there's some if you have toaster with plastic bits on the don't put any plastic in your toaster no but there's honestly all the things that you think don't have plastic in have plastic in so she is talking about you know this going through this huge plastic detox with these people trying to remove plastic from everything in their lives and it's incredibly interesting it's very scary and probably impossible to do so anyway I watched that I've heard about the plastic detoxing thing yeah that's the thing it's so hard though yeah because as you say it's microplastics are an absolute other thing I mean Jesus and then the other thing I suppose as you think about you know like in the kind of the plastics boom of the 80s when everyone was like plastic's the best thing ever it's like you just I don't remember that particularly everything was put in plastic wasn't it I'm sure I'm a bit of a rallying cry of let's okay well did you not hear about Tupperware parties oh yeah thank you thank you rallying cry come to a Tupperware party put everything you have in plastic I mean have things changed people still use Tupperwares for everything don't they yes but now they're BPA free okay you know what I'm just going to move on anyway guys right it's very good it's really interesting but it will scare the shit out of you because you basically have to live in a wooden house.

46:55Yeah, I might avoid that because it will just give me anxiety.

46:57Steph:But that's the only thing I've watched because I did watch six hours of something else. Okay. That's good. What have I watched? I have watched the entirety of Daredevil Born Again Season 2. Lots to say about that. We recorded our first spoiler special for that over on Empire. We're not going to do them weekly because there's not that much to say. But it was actually a lot of fun. I enjoyed it. A lot of fun. A lot of fun, as Scylla would say. So that was good. I also watched... Oh. watched. So I was on Friday night, I was sitting at home and an email pinged up and it literally just said, you have been provided with all of The Pit season two.

47:30And I was just like, no. And so I dug in. I made a noise a lot like that. I'm not doing it. I can't possibly repeat it.

47:38Steph:James, can I just say something? Yes. I got that email. Yes. The week before last. Did you? Well, all of season two or some of season two. All of season two. Okay, well I didn't. So I had all of season one already. which I'd already seen, and I had watched a load of season two, but they gave me the rest of season two. So I just dug in, and I powered on through, and I watched the whole of the rest of season two of The Pit, and it was glorious. Absolutely glorious at a whale of a time. See, I can't do that. I'm very jealous, because I'm trying to finish this thing I'm doing, this book I'm writing, and I can't spare 12 hours to watch the rest of The Pit.

48:11Oh, but it's worth it. Oh, but it's worth it. It was wonderful. So yes, I had the best time. No, I need to do that. And I know there's something about that show where it actually works quite well parceled out. But there is nothing quite like binging a real-time show in real time. It's quite intense. I know you're about to interview him, but you may be asking him about this, I don't know. But did you see that he did this event earlier this week when he was in London, like a one-on-one talk about the pit. Yeah. And he said that when the first thing that everyone's saying, all British people are saying to him, is that they watched it on flights.

48:41On flights. No! Like both of us have. Really? That's really funny. And there's like a queue of people telling him, I watched it on a flight, it was brilliant.

48:49Steph:Oh my god, it's the ultimate flight show. It is. It is the ultimate flight show. But most importantly, I got an email about something before you which is insane. What's happened? That is wild. And yet you didn't watch them. Especially considering the WBD screener site is one of the many that you've had trouble accessing in recent days, shall we say, I could do a whole podcast on Steph's screener site problems. God, yeah. Wow. So is it as good as season one? It is. Is it better than season one? No, I think they're pretty much on par with each other. It's done in different ways. They don't try and do something wild and make it even more intense.

49:26They're just like, do you know what? The first season was brilliant. Let's see if we can recapture that and do it again. Which is largely what they do. So yeah, I loved every second of that. That was wonderful. Had some different emotional beats to it but really, really liked it. And the other thing I watched was The Sopranos. So I watched the pilot of The Sopranos and I watched the finale of The Sopranos, both episodes of which were written and directed by David Chase. That is not an accident because I'm hosting an Empire VFP event on Thursday nights with David Chase. So that's why I'm watching episodes of The Sopranos.

49:54Steph:You had watched The Sopranos before though, right? Yes, but 25 years ago. No, no, no. I appreciate that. I felt like I owed it to David Chase to perhaps refresh my memory because it's been a long time. He hasn't done a re-watch for. Oh, yeah, why not? I've never re-watched The Sopranos. Because he's got a re-watch Game of Thrones five times instead. Oh, because of the dragons. Indeed. All right. But yeah, you know, spoiler, it's pretty good. Yeah. Yeah. What did you think of the ending? Spoiler, it's really good. I mean, the ending is almost the most famous thing about it. Yes, and I have said before on this very podcast that I was not, you know, I didn't think that ending was very good.

50:26Oh, I like the ending. Steph wasn't having it. I like the ambiguity.

50:29Steph:Fade to black. Will you be discussing that when you're doing it? Not so much fade to black as cut. Cut to black. Yeah, yeah, yeah. When are you doing it? We're doing it on Thursday night. So as this podcast goes out, it will be last week. Excellent. But yeah, looking forward to it. Yeah. Should be interesting. He's not terrifying in any way, shape or form, so I'm sure it'll go really well. You'll be fine. You will be fine. Yeah, should be good. Okay, anything else? Or are we done there? Nope. Right, let's move on to this week's specific question. If you're done, then we're all done. Yeah. That's it, we're all done.

50:57Oh, I didn't understand this question, by the way. Carry on. Oh, okay. Oh, we should have had our pre-a-tour. For Wander's for Aunt. Yeah. Well, this question comes from Dion from West Wales, which is very specific, and I like that specificity. Right, with SNL UK launching this week, I want you to know what are some of your favourite and least favourite shows that have been shared between the UK and the US. Now, keep up the great work. You make my Monday mornings much better.

51:23Steph:Oh, you're making me think I haven't understood it now. I just used the word shared to confuse me a bit. I thought it meant when we've had British shows that have been made into US remakes. Is that not right? So like The Office? Yes, indeed. Well, The Office is the answer, isn't it? So it's remakes that have gone either way. Okay, fine. So pick one. I was slightly confused by the word shared. Then you tried to confuse me. Well, that's how I chose to interpret it. Maybe they meant something completely different. I think that's probably, yeah. Because there's an American version of SNL, the former, and the British version of SNL.

51:52Yeah, because I suppose,

51:53Steph:are you thinking shared like, I don't know, the way that Downton is just Downton, and when they went to America, everybody loves Downton, because that's a share, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. Anyway, but no, it's obviously there's American and British versions. It's more common, obviously, for something to go from Britain to the US than the other way around, but it is not unheard of for it to come the other way, and for us to do remakes of American shows. No, so like what? Like, yeah, like what? Do not put me on the spot like that. Well, okay, here's an example. There's... It's going to be a sci-fi thing.

52:23Well, technically, you could probably say, so Broen came first, then the bridge, then the tunnel. So the tunnel was technically a remake of the bridge, and the bridge was American, even if the bridge was a remake of the Scandi show. You know, your favourite broad church, you know, they did the American version with David Tennant. Yes, that was weird. That's mad. I'd be fascinated by asking, I mean other than the enormous check I'm certain they gave him why did he want to play the same character again I actually have asked him that because I interviewed him I've interviewed him many times and I definitely discussed we discussed it and he was like well why not I already knew the lines I like the character blah blah blah yeah but it is mad that is bonkers yeah that was bonkers absolutely mad yeah I've got a full list but the answer is the opposite isn't it go on

53:05Steph:Gavin and Stacey was turned into Us and Them was it? yes didn't know that was tanked right? yeah not good yeah okay Obviously, Shameless, which we've discussed before. Oh, Shameless is good, yeah. But I, and I didn't, I refused to watch the American version because I think the British version is so good. Ran longer and was apparently really good. Yeah, it's got a thingy Alan White in it as well, which is very good. Jeremy Alan White. Thingy Alan White. So obviously, yeah, The Office. Oh, This Country and Welcome to Flatch. Have you heard of that? Yeah, This Country, I think that wasn't, not great either.

53:40Am I right? But I haven't seen it, yeah. But I didn't, I don't think it worked. the US version

53:46Steph:of this country was on TikTok and Great British Break-Off was made into the Great American Baking Show yeah but the funny thing about that is Prue went over did she did someone go over well you can't call it Bake-Off there can you because it's trademarked no so they call it whatever they call it instead the Great American Baking Show the British no but they did that which was nothing on there because people Americans just love the British version more and so the British version is a hit there they watch it It's on Netflix, I believe. Yeah, I've got a lot of American friends who love The Great British Bake Off.

54:17Steph:Broadchurch, we've discussed, turned into Grace Point. I'd never heard of this. Miranda, they did a version called Call Me Cat. Have you heard of that? Isabel, yeah. That sounds crazy. Who was in the Miranda role? It's, oh, the girl who played Blossom. What is her name? She's in... Oh, in Big Bang Theory. Yeah, what's her name? I can't remember. What's her name? This is Amy Farrah Fowler in the Big Bang Theory. Yes, hold on, we have to... This is good podcasting. This is great podcasting. Darren, Darren, we just find out... There's this level of preparation and research, I think, that really sets us apart from the competition.

54:50Steph:So, yeah, it was played by Mayim Bialak. I'm not pronouncing that correctly. The girl who was Blossom. And then in Big Bang Theory and all that kind of stuff. Yeah, and apparently that didn't do well. No. And, do you remember the Inbetweeners? They did the Inbetweeners. Yeah, yeah. The Asian American version of the Inbetweeners. Yeah, that was a disaster as well. But they've done loads of them. Like, they did... Peep Show, they did... Skins? Skins they did? they did the skins what was the Queer as Fuck Space they did Space they did did they do Space Queer as Fuck now this is a very good point Queer as Fuck did work Queer as Fuck went off for five seasons and Russell T.

55:26Davis often points out that it's left out of lists of successful transfers of English shows to America I have no idea but that was absolutely success five seasons really and it was a proper like a large number of episodes per season as well how many seasons

55:39Steph:did we have here there's only one and two parts special so you know one and a half that's a huge success no it was massive because Russell doesn't do returning shows generally Russell C. Davis but yeah that was a big big hit okay that's a great one showtime Strictly Come Dancing Dancing with the Stars yeah I mean that's done alright isn't it I mean wasn't Geordishore based on Jersey Shore yes yeah if we're talking UK stuff because we took Law and Order didn't we so we had Law and Order UK so we took that format but the other way around which Chibnall did yes both Cracker and Prime Suspect made their way to the US because Prime Suspect was that show Fitz which was dreadful Cracker was Prime Suspect was the Keira Sedgwick one I think came quite a bit later that was actually decent I love Keira Sedgwick I haven't seen her anything for ages I'll tell you one of the most disappointing one of the most disappointing ones for me a conversion of a British show to an American show was Utopia it had all the elements the credentials are incredible Gillian Flynn of Gone Girl fame wrote the script I think great cast I seem to remember and it just didn't it just didn't have the same kind of dynamism to it and yeah it was a real shame because I was really hoping that was going to work David Fincher I think was involved yeah I was bitterly disappointed with that that was one of them do you know what they should take from us the capture they should take that I think that would do well over there actually they should just put our capture over there speaking of which we're all one the most recent episode of that I saw which was actually the third one was absolutely wild.

57:10Oh, do you know what? I could have added that to what I've been watching. Yeah, it's incredible. That third episode. I think this season is so brilliant. I mean, it's all great, but it's been like even more spectacularly wild, as you say, than ever. And it's fantastic. I'm loving it, yeah.

57:26Steph:So what would we say? So, right, Queer as Folk, obviously, I had no idea that was so successful. What do we think is the most successful one? The Office. The Office. It is The Office. Oh, yeah, it's The Office. Okay. I mean, in many ways, it was, would you say, it was kind of to a certain extent almost more successful in the US than it was in the UK because it suddenly ran longer and it would have had a bigger audience. So how do you quantify better? I saw this amazing clip of Ricky Gervais being interviewed on The View and one of the hosts says to him, so you were in the British version of The Office and he goes, hold on, I think what I like to call the original.

58:00Yes, yes. no him and Steve Ricky and Steve decided absolutely themselves after two seasons and two series and Christmas specials so I think to say whereas the American one was designed to become a long running which it did become a huge thing so I think it's an absolute phenomenon because the office the American office is a pop culture massive pop pop cultural hit but I think the absolute perfection of the British one will always for me It's almost hard to compare because when you get across the first season, the American one is a completely different show entirely. Yeah, yeah. It's a different beast.

58:39Trying to say. Yeah.

58:40Steph:I think Ricky Gervais is really, really brilliant at knowing when to stop and keep something so precious. Isn't he? Yeah, Afterlife was the first thing he did that was more than two series. Yeah. Did three series of Afterlife. Ghosts actually worked quite well. Oh, yeah, Ghosts worked well. The US version of Ghosts was decent. Oh, I haven't seen that. Which I assume might still be going. Is it still going? I think so, yeah. I think so. Yeah, that was a hit. Do a number crunch. Do another, like, riveting Google search. No, Ghost is a good point. Ghost did really well. And, of course, they're making a film about that.

59:10A film about it? They're making a film spin-off. They are indeed, that's true.

59:14Steph:Oh, my God. It has been renewed through fifth and sixth season. Yeah, I think it's one of the most watched, like, in terms of new comedies of the last few years, Ghost's US version does really well. But they show on BBC Three as well, of course. We will not talk about the American Red Dwarf, because it's just upsetting. Oh, no, no, no, no, no. Because as we've established, you and I both love Red Dwarf and Boyd, for some unfathomable reason, doesn't find it funny. There are loads of shows that never got past the pilot stage, like UK shows that went to pilot in the US. I think Red Dwarf might be one of those, actually.

59:46Because they had a thick of it. They had a thick of it pilot that didn't go to series before they made Veep.

59:51Steph:Oh, do you know what? The thick of it is such a British show. I can't see how that would translate. I mean, Veep's obviously amazing, but do you know what I mean the thick of it I don't know how that went well except the film that won what was it called which kind of was half set in America if not in fact it might have been in the loop in the loop thank you kind of effectively was James Gadolfini wasn't it oh my god I've just thought of another one sorry to cut you off House of Cards yes oh House of Cards yeah absolutely but I mean we'll have to draw a veil over that because of Kevin Spacey I know we have to draw a veil but it was brilliant I love House of Cards it was great yeah They even kind of managed to almost carry on without him, didn't they, when she took over in the final season.

1:00:34Steph:It did carry on without him, and it was fine. It's still pretty good, yeah. Anyway, let's move on. Sorry, I've brought up so much. Well, we've exhausted that question, and indeed each other, and presumably the listeners. So let's move on from there. If you have a question for the podcast, the address is pilotTV at empiremagazine.com. For now. There's a new email address coming. Bear with me. You keep saying that. I'm teasing the new email address, but I checked it yesterday and it doesn't work oh great oh why are we getting a new email address because you know for fun for fun for funsies yeah that's right shall we move on now to news and I know what you're going to say Steph I know what you're going to say and I'm sure Kay would have written in to mention this herself but you will know I was bereft when the Wheel of Time was cancelled after its third season but it's okay because the Wheel of Time is coming back in animated form possibly as movies and a show and the studio behind Arcane is connected to it it's like Christmas come early it's very very exciting I'm not quite sure how it's going to work because they were like there was a discussion it was going to be a companion I'm like well how does that work are you going to continue the story is it going to be like are you going to start again from the beginning how's that going to work I don't know so we'll see give me a short synopsis about what the Wheel of Time is about and when I say short I mean Steph come on in short it is a high fantasy saga written by Robert Jordan spanning about 14 books.

1:01:58Steph:Okay. Classic good versus evil struggle but it's quite dense. The TV show I loved not many people watched it. Okay. Okay. If Foundation is like a you know a 10 Yes. On the impenetrability scale. Yes. Yes. What is Wheel of Time? Oh it's not too bad. I'd say it's like a 7 maybe a 7 and a half. Okay. So it has its moments. You do kind of have to pay attention because the law is quite dense at times. But it's not, you know, impossible to follow. Okay. Does it have one of those crazy, massive mathematics quiz like it does at the beginning of Foundation? Okay, fine. Boy, did you like Wheel of Time? No.

1:02:37I watched, I tried to watch each, the beginning, I watched the first episode of each season. Which is as the creators intended. Mainly because James forces us to review it on this podcast. And I didn't go on with that, I have to say, no.

1:02:48Steph:It wasn't for me. Well, now it's going to be an animated series, and that may be an access point for... Suddenly, by the way, James has been converted to animated series. Right. So they're part of the Arkane Studio. So that's my way into that. But yes, admittedly, I was like, animated. It's like how I felt when they announced the Firefly thing. I was like, great, animated. I know. But, arcane. But as I've said a few times, animation is a great way for, if you have young children, for them to access shows that you want them to watch when they're older. And it's, you know, fun for all the family.

1:03:14That doesn't help me specifically with Wheel of Time, but sure.

1:03:16Steph:It doesn't. No. Sorry. Okay. Okay, so that was a bit of news. Yeah. Another bit of news I'm going to throw your way before you get in there is Wonder Man has been renewed for a second season. Oh, do you know what? You've never, ever truly committed to that show. You've always had a little bit of... Yeah, because do you know why? Because he's always been a little bit snooty about it. And it's unjust. Snooty Magoozie. Snooty Magoozie. Yeah, and you said that in a, I don't know who's done this, but it's a wrong decision. It seems like an odd decision, because it felt conceived to be a standalone thing.

1:03:48I know it leaves the door open at the end, but it felt like it was a one and done. And also, I was like, who's watching this show? Like, genuinely, because who's it for? I enjoyed it but I still don't know entirely who it's for so I'm surprised that it's coming back I'm not sure how I feel about that whether I think they should have just left it be

1:04:03Steph:I think when we reviewed it you went it's fine yeah I liked it I watched every episode of it I thought it was very good I liked it yeah well you'll like it even more because it's coming back I'll watch the second season yeah okay good Bridgerton a show you refused to take part in accurate they have confirmed that the leads for next season season five are going to be Francesca and Michaela and they're going to be the focus of next season, which I'm very excited about. And for those at home, who are Francesca and Michaela? Okay, it's really hard to talk about this without giving season four spoilers away.

1:04:35Steph:Okay, try. So, Francesca is one of the Bridgerton daughters who was happily married and Michaela is her... Her cousin-in-law? It's her cousin-in-law, yeah. Cousin-in-law. Yeah, she's the cousin of her husband. Right. But I can't say much more because it'll give away what happened in season four. Okay. Something sad happened. If you know, you know. Boyd, anything from your camp? Yeah, well, I don't want to get too awards heavy, but... But you will. But I know there is a segment of our listenership that enjoys me reciting nominations. very small feckish driven group whoa whoa hold on I'm just going to make myself comfortable because I love it when you read lists so cool I thought anyway so last night was the Royal Television Society Awards that I was at Kay was there of this parish my beloved we weren't sat together annoyingly in fact we could barely be sat further apart Kay was in the right at the front near the stage and you were at the back I was at the back wow oh my god did you complain I did sit next to Gabby Roslyn though and Suneetra Sarka the actress who's very good Who was Kay sitting with?

1:05:44She was sitting with a bunch of randoms.

1:05:47Steph:Was she? Do you think she tried to say to someone important, can I get my friend Boyd to come and sit at the front with me? And then they said, no, he's not important enough. Kay, you stay there. Who knows? She may have done. Anyway, it was a fine night, and I won't recite all the winners. You can Google it. Have a look at the winners, because I am going to recite some of the nominees, because the BAFTA nominations came out this week as well. In fact, yesterday, as we were recording this, on Wednesday the 25th, and surprisingly or not, Adolescence was the most received the most nominations and it did pretty well last night as well and but the second highest number was A Thousand Blows so Stephen Graham is like just ruling the world right now as he should as he should have you seen that film with the kid in the basement that he's in which is called I think it's called Heel in the US and over here it is called Naughty Boy or something Good Boy I think it's Good Boy that's it The Naughty Boy The Naughty Boy I have not seen The Naughty Boy I've never seen it.

1:06:43There are hardly any screenings of it. You haven't even heard of it. Yeah, it came out last Friday. I already can see it. Anyway, he is the man of the moment. And sure enough, A Thousand Blows is nominated. So I'll just run through a couple of categories. Just, you know. Please do. People liked it now.

1:06:57Steph:People liked it. Yeah, the people demand it. They do. People demand it. So, drama series, A Thousand Blows, the aforementioned with Stephen Graham and others. Blue Lights. Yes, Blue Lights. Which won last night, won the RTSs. So that was good. Code of Silence. Nice. and This City Is Ours which I really like the Liverpool kind of set but also Spain thing with dodgy gangsters etc really good limited drama Adolescence which will obviously win I Thought The Law with Sheridan Smith Trespasses on China which was the Irish drama that we didn't really talk about on here for some reason I think it was a really busy week but it's got a lot getting a lot of awards attention and what it feels like for a girl which we did review which I think was absolutely brilliant leading actor Colin Firth for Lockerbie Ellis Howard for What It Feels Like for a Girl, James Nelson Joyce for The City Is Ours, Matt Smith for The Death of Bunny Monroe, Stephen Graham for Adolescence, and the best nominee of the whole thing, and I'm including all the technical awards, everything.

1:07:58And it's about time this show got some awards recognition. Oh, God. You know what I'm going to say? Is it love rap? No. Smoke. Taron Egerton has been nominated for Best Actor for the demented, delirious, delicious Smoke, my favourite mental show. And it hasn't been nominated for anything because he's so mad. But he brilliantly has been nominated, and I'm so thrilled for him. Obviously, he's going to lose to someone from Adolescence.

1:08:22Steph:Of course he's going to lose, but I feel like that word has not been used in any other award ceremony at all. I don't think it has, no. Wow. Why do you think it's in this one? Because it was mad. Absolutely fucking bonkers. But I loved it. Yeah, but why do you think they've decided to give it some recognition? Oh, because clearly some people on the panel knew what they were talking about. Oh, absolutely. And do you know, actually, I am a BAFTA voter, so I voted for it in my... Oh, you did? Here's a question. What single episode were you basing this on? Well, that's a good question, but you're talking about BAFTA, I wasn't on a jury, so BAFTA voters get to vote for the stuff as well.

1:08:58So some of the things are decided by jury, some of the things are decided by all the voters, etc. So I wasn't on a jury, but in which, yeah, you're only allowed to consider one episode, which the TV companies put forward to represent the show itself. That's a difficult one for that. That is a difficult one for that. Really difficult, yeah. Leading actress, Amy Lou Wood for Film Club.

1:09:17Steph:Oh. Yeah, she's great in that. Yeah. Oh, I love that show so much. I'm being yourself. With excitement. Slash. If you haven't watched Film Club, watch Film Club because it's great. It was good. Erin Doherty for A Thousand Blows. Jodie Whittaker for Toxic Town, which I'm really pleased about because she was brilliant in that. Narges Rashidi for Prisoner 951, which was excellent. the Iranian that was incredibly moving Sheridan Smith for I Thought the Law and Sean Brooke for Brewed Blue Lights that's a really good list I think ooh that's a tough category it is a tough category very tough category I'll just do a couple more should I do supporting actor and supporting actress I'll just do scripted comedy and best comedy acting what should I go for let's do scripted comedy Amanda Land Big Boys How Are You it's Alan Partridge my own personal favourite although Big Boys is brilliant and Things You Should Have Done which is very funny as well that's a tough category and best actor in a comedy Jim Howick for Here We Go John Pointing for Big Boys Lenny Rush for Am I Being Unreasonable Mouane Rizwan for Juice brilliant Oliver Saville Changing Ends young Alan Carr and Steve Coogan for How Are You at Sound and Punch and Steve Coogan won last night best actor in comedy actor which was brilliant and best actress in a comedy Diane Morgan for Mandy Jennifer Sauners for Amanda Land Catherine Parkinson for Here We Go Lucy Punch for Amanda Land Philippa Dunn from Amanda Land you may get a theme here three out of six are from Amanda Land and Rosie Jones for Pushers on Channel 4 which James didn't like and let's I'll leave it there I could go on but there's about 25 ,000 categories I enjoyed it James thanks can I just quickly say please did you know did you know that for all mankind not fam for all mankind it's ending it's ending it's ending with one final season season six it's been renewed but that will be the final season they're not doing anymore they want the quote we're thrilled to have the opportunity to finish the story the way we've always hoped which will bring it up to roughly the present day yeah yeah that's exciting oh interesting exciting and there's a spin-off as well yeah Star City Star City yeah oh but actually I'm going to give you one more just assuming you thought it was over oh god no no no because this is the international category do it of the BAFTAs and this is an incredible list I support you The Bear.

1:11:34Ooh. Pluribus. Severance. The Studio. Three Apple TV shows reflecting the power and strength of Apple TV. The White Lotus and The Diplomat.

1:11:48Steph:Oh my God. That sounds... Our favourite. That is tough. Pilot TV favourite, The Diplomat. Despite its unconvincing running, The Diplomat has been recognised. I think that's a brilliant list of... That is a brilliant list. As I have previously revealed, I don't like Severance and I know everyone else loves it. Severance hater. Yeah, I know. Why? Why do you hate it so much, Kate? God, it's right. Name tag, please, someone. Go ahead. This is with Mossman here. Oh, she'd be furious. She'd be furious. She would be furious. I think I said one of my main things is the lack, the set, you know, I feel like there's nothing to grab hold of.

1:12:23Steph:The corridors are annoying. There's nothing to grab hold of. I mean, the corridor thing is a very Boyd complaint. Yeah, it is a Boyd complaint and I support you with that. Thank you. I just, I can't get on with it, guys. I know, I'm sorry. Fine. Right, let's move on. Okay, Mahershala Ali has signed on for season two of Task. Really? That is a nice bit of casting. Don't know a lot about that continuation of the story, but I'm very, very pleased with that. That is very nice. What else has happened? Oh, Star Trek, Starfleet Academy has been cancelled. So, to be fair, it's getting a second season because, frankly, they've just finished filming it, so they're going to put that out.

1:13:01but the second season will be the last one so I guess it did not hit with people in the way they had hoped it's a shame isn't it

1:13:06Steph:I thought it was okay I thought it was pretty good in fact it's been on my sofa list to watch and now less so which is a shame yeah because then you won't be able to keep going well unless they I don't imagine they do kind of finish it properly because I think it got cancelled after they finished shooting but yeah that's a little bit sad boo HBO announced the start date for Euphoria season 3 oh yeah which is sooner than I expected it's coming up in a couple of weeks time April 12th in the America I assume it will be April 13th on Sky Atlantic and HBO Max Is this new news? I feel like it's been in the calendar for a long time What an accusation?

1:13:42No I think it was only announced literally today well 17 hours ago in fact Maybe I'm just prescient There's a poster star-studded poster with all the because they're all huge stars now I'm almost certain I've had it in the calendar for quite a while Well just because you have your own overall god-like knowledge Yeah that's it which none of the rest of us possess. I'm excited about the new season of Euphoria because I think it's going to be wild. Absolutely wild. I mean, I think that's fair, given that it's Euphoria. Yeah. Okay. So when those arrive in my, hopefully, from the same screener site as the aforementioned Pit, I'm going to have to watch it.

1:14:22Steph:You will be doing it. You're going to have to. So I'm going to have to finish my book by whenever that happens. How many more pages have you got to write? It's just editing it down. Oh, okay. Yeah. Okay, time for our next guest, and we have a little interview. That is Boyd's highlight of 2026, or rather it will be, because as we've said, he is heading off to do this very, very soon. In fact, as soon as we finish recording, right now he's going to head off and he's going to talk to Lisa Kudrow and Michael Patrick King, the star and creator of The Comeback. Even as we speak, they are sitting in a hotel room, waiting, waiting for Boyd's arrival.

1:14:53The show, which we've talked about already, this is Valerie Cherish back at it again, only this time making a sitcom written by AR. and it is available on both, I want to say, Sky Comedy and HBO Max. Is that correct? Yeah, it is. Assuming all goes well, this is Boydie Talking Comebacks with Lisa Kudrow and Michael Patrick King. Michael Patrick King, Lisa Kudrow, welcome to the Pilot TV Podcast. Thank you. Michael, I don't know if you remember, you won't remember, but I interviewed you last summer when, and just like that, was finishing. And at the end of my interview, I said to you, one day, do you think you'd be able to do a comeback?

1:15:25And you kind of went, finally you should say that. I am in talks with Lisa. So at what point did you decide, yes, we're going to do this? We always met every couple of months or years or weeks. I don't remember. Minutes. And would have a conversation. And it would always come around to, what do you think Valerie's doing now? And there was never a mandate from HBO to do it. We all ended beautifully in the second season. We were like, that was great. We did great. Yeah, we're done. And then all of a sudden, Lisa and I started circling the idea of too bad Valerie wasn't here during the writer's SAG strike because she would have been funny in it.

1:16:06And then I thought, well, why can't we start in the past three years ago? Because the thing that I thought was most curious about the strike was when it ended, they said we're going to have to renegotiate in three years because of AI. So that's the idea of AI came in. And then we knew we had a crazy car for Valerie to drive. You know? The call was key. Yeah, really. It really is. It was very important. Yeah. No, it was because she's finally offered the lead in a multicam sitcom. So it has to be the worst thing possible. It's written by AI. But how does she say no to a lead on a multicam sitcom?

1:16:51And to me, the interesting thing of the first episode is she kind of does say, she does say, I can't do that. Absolutely. That's a bridge too far. Are you guys aware of just how high the level of anticipation and excitement is about the return of your show? Because I had Elizabeth Moss on our podcast, you know, the actress on Monday. And somehow we got to the subject of the comeback and she cannot wait. She said, can you tell them to do season four? I know you said this is the last one. Can you get a role for her in it? People are beyond excited. Wow. I mean, that's really nice. And what's sort of a gift is you know that people are waiting.

1:17:28And then when you get in and you're doing it, it's almost like a beta blocker. You don't think about anything except the moments that you're writing. And then you get to perform them, which is all inclusive of just doing it. And then when you're editing, you start to feel like, I hope it's going to meet the expectation. expectation. Right. It's, yeah, that's pressure. Yeah. Did you feel that pressure? Yeah. After we're done. Right. And parts during, yes. It's like, are we hitting the right, I don't know. Well, let's see. Well, we'll see. I don't know. Yeah. Going back to the beginning, when you first created the character of Valerie Cherish, what was it, what was it you were trying to say about her?

1:18:05What was the essence of her, if you like? Oh, to me, it was a self-important, phony actor thinking she can control how she comes off in reality TV. Like she can be in charge of that, which is impossible. Yeah. I think the thing that Lisa enjoys most from the very beginning when she told me about this character called an actress on a talk show, the thing that made her laugh and always makes Lisa laugh is someone who is unaware of their own bullshit. And that makes Lisa laugh because she's not that person. Yeah. But she sees it, and that made me laugh. So building a character that was sort of, it's never one-dimensional because Lisa's playing her, but as she grew over the years, we added more and more other sides to her that we came to not laugh at.

1:19:06but appreciate. Yeah, it definitely feels like in this season, more than ever, it feels like you're deepening her and you're kind of explaining and exploring why she's so self-absorbed and all of that. Was that a conscious thing or was it just kind of just how it ended up being written? I mean, I think the circumstances this time brought that out. You know, she didn't ask to be in charge. Yeah. And as everyone who's supposed to help and be in charge, like, just doesn't show up. She's the only one. Yeah. I don't. It's just right. It's just how it. That's the Valerie take. The Lisa Michael writing take is you have to constantly evolve characters.

1:19:50Even if Valerie seems the same, we evolve the situations around her that are going to push her somewhere new. We don't want to do the first season again. We did it. So the writing part is like, how do you evolve her? And what became interesting was if the first two seasons she was chasing the spotlight, what would be interesting for us writing is if we put her in the spotlight. Like people were like, you're it. But then she's in charge of a dysfunctional, unwieldy world. But, yeah, I mean, you always want to change her a little bit. It's a trick to writing a series. People are waiting for her to do the Valerie thing.

1:20:33Yes. And then you do selective writing to be whatever the new Valerie thing is. Yeah, because you do the new Valerie thing, but obviously there's lots of people from the past that arrive without spoiling too much. And it feels like almost everyone gets an explanation of why they've behaved as they have done. Right. Right? Which is fascinating. Oh, good. Yeah. Oh, good. Thank God. The other thing that we really were, it's a very bizarre thing. We wanted Valerie to be good on How Is That, the sitcom within the sitcom. We wanted to show that she would be somebody. We tried to make it as good as you can when it's a sitcom that's being seen only a minute of every now and then.

1:21:11But we didn't want Valerie to be a joke. We wanted her to be strong in a quote unquote sitcom that's maybe not so great. Well, what struck me was that as you finish the whole thing, the whole season, it's kind of a celebration of the sitcom, isn't it, in a way? Like what a great genre it can be at its best and how people need that escape and need to laugh. And I think there's a lovely kind of sweetness to that in the end. Oh, good. Yeah. I mean, is that something you completely identify with just how important and how much to our lives sitcoms are? Yes. Very, very, very much. I mean, in the writing room, Lisa made sure that Valerie said, Lisa Kudrow made sure Valerie said she stood up for sitcoms and saying they can be culture-defining if they're great.

1:21:59She really wanted, Lisa really wanted that in the show, and that's only something Lisa would have thought of. Yeah. It's mad to think, isn't it, that the first season, you were cancelled after the first season. Do you, I mean, did they ever explain why? Why did you ever get, I mean, it seemed such a ridiculous thing to happen, almost like a plot from the show, that this great show had been cancelled. No, no, no. I mean, it wouldn't even work in a show. Right. The way we got cancelled because no one would buy it. It would become a mystery for the rest of the series. It's an unsold mystery. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:22:33It's unsold. We went from uncarmony to unsold. No, but it's this, well, now it might be that person's fault. Right. Who's not there anymore. Right. just hated it. Yeah. It was just a mystery to us, and we both had to deal with it the way you deal with anything you don't understand. Lisa was able to put it over there, and I was, like, personally offended. Quite rightly. I would have tracked down whoever it was chasing out of town. But there's nothing to be done. I just thought, ooh, someone made a mistake. Not my mistake, because this was a triumph. We did it. We did such good work. there's nothing to be ashamed of or feel bad about.

1:23:13Yeah, that was the weird thing. We both felt, and because there's two of us, you're not deluded as much. We both looked at each other and said, that was good. What happened? It wasn't like when you're by yourself, sometimes you can sort of just hear your own self. There was an echo chamber that was going, why we don't get it. But do you think in the end it worked in the show's favor? Yes. First of all, you created this huge cult following, People of which I was a member, and we just talked about the show constantly, even when it was off air for 10 years. And then to be able to do two more series 10 years apart, it's such a unique thing.

1:23:47Yes. That must be, how insane is that to do, to be in the middle of that? It became a gift and a high-pressure gift because every 10 years now, it's an event. And it better have been worth the wait and expectation of returning. So that part is scary, honestly. It's also a weird, curious lesson or tonic, because if we had been given what should have happened was just another season, we would have done well and we would have been good. And maybe we would have done another season because television was always, you never know. But because it was taken away, there was an unanswered something that created this energy.

1:24:29So we got to come back and do like the Caesar parade into Rome for a minute. Of course, when we did get invited back to HBO to talk about it, the day we went back to HBO, I couldn't get my parking ticket validated. And I was like, well, that's Valerie. So you're never given a real triumphant ride. There's always a comedy. We also didn't have the full idea until we were in the lobby waiting to be called in. And we just all of a sudden had another thought. And then it was, oh, she's going to be in the Polly G show. We didn't have that. I mean, that is the funny, great thing. Sometimes it just shows up for us out of nowhere.

1:25:16The minute we were at the meeting and lunch and I said the thing about AI, Lisa launched into a monologue as the character in the sitcom, which we just instantly, it was brand new, just wet. And she ended with, so how's that? And as soon as I heard it, I knew that that thing came from somewhere that was solid and we were going to run with it. And the best name for a mediocre sitcom. It's perfect. Absolutely. But even the AI theme ends up being not quite as simple as you might think. It's not just a case of AI is evil and the real human writers are good because the real human writers, some of them, turn out to be, frankly, dickheads.

1:25:55Well, we've experienced them in the show. That is the technical phrase, dickheads. Yeah, right. There were some brilliant guest stars in the show, without spoiling too much, but I particularly was excited to see Andrew Scott, who I'm a huge fan of. Yeah, me too. I mean, when you created that role, did you have him in mind? Would you just think, oh yeah, the casting director go, Andrew Scott? How did that happen? No, I mean, the head of the network was a character that we knew was going to be important and her foil and her friend complicated. as we were writing it. And we never, he's abstract in our heads.

1:26:31And then Andrew said, what did he say? Anything? I like the show. Oh, yeah. Just he was a fan of the show. And I don't know, heard from his agent saying, yeah, he's a fan of the show. So if there's anything, and we went, uh, there is. And we met with him. And he was like, okay, yeah, well, but there's, do you know anything you read? And sent him, it was three scenes. It wasn't just like a hello and something, which I think he was expecting, and then it turned into a recurring role. Yeah, and he just said yes. Thank God. That was so generous. When somebody calls and says, oh, I'll do your show, we sent him three episodes, and I kept thinking to Lisa, is he going to say, I don't want to do this.

1:27:15I only wanted to say hi. And he's all over the eighth episode, the final one. Yeah, he's all over everything. He has a brilliant scene in that eighth episode, which again deepens him, doesn't it? because you see him as a fairly shallow figure, and then you see an insight into him. It was fantastic. Yeah, well, hopefully with the comeback, you always get to see something underneath the thing. So I have to ask, you said this is the third and final season, but 10 years' time, there might be something. If there's an issue, an idea like AI, something we don't even know about yet came out, would you consider it another season?

1:27:44I don't know. Okay, that's something. If we can and have the will, but this is just such a nice package, a trilogy. and it started with an extinction event, everyone thought, and it's ending with another potential extinction event that probably won't be. So, isn't that perfect? It felt like it closed and we're really happy that we got to this point. It is fantastic. Thank you. Congratulations, yeah. Thank you. Thanks so much for coming to be on the show. Thank you. Thank you. That was Lisa Kudrow. I'm Michael Badrick King. I believe it is now time for review. Should we move on to reviews? Let's do it.

1:28:24Let's move on to reviews. And first up this week, we have The Burbs on Sky and Now. And this is a reimagining of the 1989 Joe Dante film, which had Tom Hanks in there. And this is Jack Whitehall and Kiki Palmer. And they're a couple who move into this kind of insular suburban neighbourhood called Hinkley Hills, only to become ever so slightly obsessed, as you would do, by the dilapidated house across the road and its mysterious new owner. He is, of course, horribly compromised by the fact he knows its star. but nevertheless, tell us about The Burbs, The Boyd. Well, this was interesting because I don't know about you, but The Burbs is one of those films that, it was like 80s, wasn't it?

1:29:01Late 80s. I don't think I've ever seen it.

1:29:04Steph:Oh, you should watch it. Yeah, for some reason. It's good. It's fine. Is it? It's fine, yeah. I liked it. Okay. But this feels like one of those situations where they've just taken an IP, you know, an existing IP, which every single, pretty much every other show on TV or film has to have to... You can't just create something new. Do you know what I mean? A new format, a new idea. There are no new ideas. Blah, blah, blah, all that. But for me, this is like... Was the film really like this? Was it... So I ask that. I don't know. When you say like this, what do you mean? So basically... The story's different.

1:29:34This is a different story. It isn't the same story. Right.

1:29:37Steph:They do a nice nod to Tom Hanks. They do, yes. So, because basically it's about a couple who decide to move to the suburbia from the city, right? and particularly driven by him, played by my good close personal friend, Jack Whitehall. And Kiki Palmer's into it as well. She's kind of maybe slightly a little bit more reluctant, but she's into it. Then they arrive and there's this like decrepit almost house on the other side of the road from where they're cul-de-sac. And there's like creepy things going on and her and her, this couple, this lesbian couple kind of investigate a bit. And there's a grumpy man who doesn't say much.

1:30:13And it's all a bit weird. But then... That's an extraordinary synopsis, by the way. Thank you. That wasn't a great synopsis.

1:30:20Steph:Everyone's getting marked today. It's really nice. So all of that I was kind of expecting. I was vaguely aware it's got a supernatural, ghosty element to it, maybe, or some kind of comedy horror element to it. Comedy horror, yes. Comedy horror. And a mismatched couple a little bit, I don't know. But what I wasn't expecting is, by the end of the first episode, it kind of addresses things like racism. All the way through the first episode, it does. Yeah, but particularly it builds up to the moment, there's a scene where she's outside this decrepit, crumbling mansion. And it is like a critique of, you know, racist incidents that have happened where police arrive and they assume that she's doing something wrong.

1:31:01And it's getting the white police, two white policemen. And I'm like, hold on, this is a dissection of modern America's issues of race and, you know, class a little bit, but particularly race. And I just was not expecting this thing to happen in the middle. throughout and particularly by the end of a seemingly frothy, comedic, horror thing. So I just thought it was completely unexpected and I thought it was rather impressive in the end from that point of view. It's not what I would call a searingly... No. It's quite broad. And also that is a scenario I would say we've seen many, many times, which is the interracial couple or black couple moves into a white suburban neighbourhood and everyone looks at them askance.

1:31:43I mean, God, we've reviewed about seven shows like that on this podcast. Have we? Yeah.

1:31:47Steph:I think I would say that actually what they're doing quite cleverly is they're kind of weaving in a bit of a social commentary about the tie. I think it's quite clever because there is a point where a librarian looks at Kiki Palmer's baby and refers to it as a mocker. Yes, yes. And she's horrified. Oh, completely. I guess I wasn't... You're right. So there have been shows that have done this kind of thing before, but it becomes almost the subject of the show. Oh, yeah. and not in a yeah of course not in a kind of like forced overly serious way in a very light way but actually that's probably the most effective way of doing it of what it's doing and it's almost like to go I was talking about the Trojan Horse of Elizabeth Moss's stuff where she often talks about genre pieces that smuggle in themes and this feels a bit like that to me so I have no idea whether the original had anything like that at all going on in it but this feels very much the point of it in a way and I think that's interesting I think Jack and her are nice together I think they have a kind of nice I'm trying to avoid the word frothy but I keep coming back to the word frothy they have a nice jolly jolly fun relationship that you can see why they're together like it's a sense of humour based thing where they kind of make fun of each other and have you know they're buddies they've got a buddy marriage yeah exactly and she's got a fun brother that she talks to who kind of was like he's very, he's kind of camping over the top.

1:33:14Steph:Yeah, he's living in her apartment. Living in her apartment, her lavish apartment in the city. So I enjoyed it. And I enjoyed it more than I expected to, mainly because of that whole thing of what it's dealing with, yeah, in a kind of clever, smart, or seemingly throwaway way, throwaway way. But I wouldn't say, I didn't get to the first episode, and do the first episode and think, oh, this has to go to the top of my list of things I have to carry on watching. And I think there were eight episodes of it. It's quite a lot, quite, again, you know, everything's... Right. Oh, God. I don't know how it's going to sustain those eight episodes.

1:33:46Well, this is the concern, isn't it? Because it has that classic feel of, we have got an IP, we are now going to bludgeon this story to death over the course of eight interminable hours. I don't know if that's actually what's going to happen here, but it doesn't... And I know that there's a murder mystery at the heart of this, which is, I guess, a thread that's going to run through all the episodes. And to be fair, it might sustain that very well. I think on the base of this first episode, but it concerned me that this doesn't have enough to it to support eight hours. I could be proved wrong, but I had that concern.

1:34:17No, same. Have you watched eight episodes?

1:34:19Steph:No, I haven't watched episodes. I think the episode length is too long. I really enjoyed it. I think Jack Whitehall, and I'm not compromised because he's not my best personal friend. But I do like Jack Whitehall. So do I, actually. He's very good. And what he's really good at is being Jack Whitehall. and I think he's Jack Whitehall in this. I meant to mention this in my inane summary of the show, which is one of the best creative decisions, I'm absolutely serious, is to let him have his own accent. Oh, God, yes. And for everyone else listening, by the way, if you're a producer or a writer or a showrunner or whatever, just stop having people doing American accents who are British, posh British people.

1:35:01It rarely ever works, and that decision was absolutely honest.

1:35:04Steph:And that's, he is, it's basically Jack Whitehall moves to the suburbs with Kiki Palmer. Kind of also playing a sub. Yeah, and Kiki Palmer, and that's exactly what I was going to say. So that brings an incredible authenticity to it because you're not having to get over Jack Whitehall. And as soon as he opened his mouth, I was like, thank God he's not got an American accent. He's playing someone who's really not too far from who he is. And obviously he's just had a new baby as well. So you're kind of, I felt, like I said, the authenticity was there. Kiki Palmer they've allowed Kiki Palmer to be who she is and I think that again you can you've made the point that you can understand why they're married those two could be married and it would work because they're allowed to be who they really are and that's wonderful yeah I think the episode was too long and I God don't know what they're going to do I totally agree what you can do is seven more hours of this I found it yeah it feels like it should be a half hour show just like yeah it really does I found it you know it was titillating I really liked titillating it was titillating that's quite the word I wasn't expecting that one it was I was like oh this is this bit's fun no it was I really yeah I liked it it's definitely not like I've got to watch the rest of them yeah it's a fun it's a bit of a romp it's a fun place to hang out isn't it yeah it's a fun place to hang out but it's not I don't think it's gonna you know I don't think it's gonna win any awards but it was nice it's just you know to use James's one of James's it was fine it was fine it was fine but also titillating titillating titillating titillating I liked it but I didn't love it I think that's a reasonable reaction to it it is fine it's not terrible at all it may admirably sustain the eight episode run who knows but yeah that's certainly a concern at this stage watch it don't watch it you know it's fine either way I am absolutely here for Jack Whitehall's burgeoning Hollywood acting career though I think it's fantastic he's inherently entertaining As long as they let Jack Whitehall be Jack Whitehall.

1:37:04Did you see Malice? No, I didn't see that. Did you ever finish Malice? No. Malice was really good. He did play a different character. He played a very dark take. That was the real stretch for him. This is not a stretch for him. This is him just being himself. Yeah, completely.

1:37:21Steph:Okay, well, let Jack Whitehall be is the moral of this story, isn't it? And then it will be just fine. The Burbs, then, which screened, I want to say on Peacock earlier this year in the US, but it's now on Sky and Now. When, Boydie? Sky 1, and now Wednesday, the 1st of April. April Fool's Day. April Fool's Day. No less, at 9pm. But I think it'll be on demand from Sky and Now subscribers as well. Next up, we have Stefan Goloshefsky's latest show. This is Babies on BBC One, and it deals with the trauma of pregnancy loss. Siobhan Cullen and Papa Essiedu's Lisa and Stephen deal with the fallout of multiple miscarriages.

1:37:56You are going to want to strap in for this one. Steph, you and your new BFF, Elizabeth Moss, chatted about this one at some length after the interview.

1:38:06Steph:Yes. So it's only fair that you share your thoughts with everyone else and not just with Elizabeth Moss. No, not just with... Okay, I am just going to say now, right, for anyone, I'm going to be serious now because this is very... This was... I'm going to try and get through this whole review without crying. And I know we're not a particularly serious podcast, But this was what I watched six hours of. And what I would say to Stefan Goloszewski is if somebody could have cut open my heart and my mind and the lived experience of my lived experience and put it on screen in front of me, that is what he has done.

1:38:48Steph:This was hugely, I can't talk about this without talking about this is hugely personal to me because I've lived every single thing in this show. So we're not going to cry because it's unprofessional. But if you have had any experience of trying to get pregnant, unexplained infertility, pregnancy loss, being surrounded by people who are getting pregnant when you're not getting pregnant, be forewarned that this show is going to hit so hard you will cry from beginning to end and I this morning when I got in I said to Boyd I'm going to show you a picture because I took a picture of myself and when I'd watched the finale of this show and Boyd was like oh Jesus yeah we need to put out a warning about this so uh I have one child it took me five years to have this child I eventually had to have IVF I've been through this situation and I can't quite believe this masterful portrayal of the extreme emotion that comes with trying to conceive a child and failing and losing and it's this is such a gift there's such a gift of a show I can't I'm tearing up I'm so sorry it's such a gift of a show and it's something that happens to so many people.

1:40:15Steph:And unless you live that experience, it's so hard to explain. But he's done this. I was saying to Boyd, was he originally a playwright? Because it feels like a play to me. It's beautiful. It's subtle. It hits every single piece of me. And I know it will for so many other people out there who've experienced it. and the actors are perfection. It's just an incredible must watch for anyone who, if you want to try and understand, if you have anyone in your life and you want to try and understand what this is like, you will understand it. I want to talk about, do you remember we reviewed a show called Beth?

1:40:59Steph:We had a show called Beth and it was a show and it had a mixed race and fertile couple in it. And I talked a lot about that because I found it ended up being something supernatural in that. And the thing that I found really upsetting about that is that they'd got so many things right in it and I really didn't want it to end up sci-fi because they'd done a brilliant portrayal of their infertility. And this, I mean, this is just, this is the best portrayal of this kind of struggle that I think we will ever see because it's masterful. This is a masterpiece of television about this subject. And this is a piece of television that I didn't know.

1:41:45Steph:I can't believe. I don't know how they've done this. I don't know how they've managed to get the emotions so spot on. I mean, like I said, I know how it feels and it was like watching my life on screen. It was like watching my life on screen and I know it will be for so many women and so many men. They get the male position completely right, I think. They've got, there's another, there's two other characters in there who are having not fertility issues, but there's issues with being a father and issues with other issues of loss. It's sensational. It's sensational. It is beyond sensational for me.

1:42:26Steph:And I would like to just say thank you, Stefan Goloszewski, for doing something that is so important. And now I'm going to have to stop because I'm going to cry because I loved it and it was wonderful. Yeah, it should be like a trigger warning. It should be a trigger warning. I'm just going to... Yeah, because it might be... I mean, my question is, it is absolutely devastating. It's devastating. I watched the first two and it's relentlessly devastating. Can I just tell you what I did when I watched this? So what I would say to people is, if you are triggered by this and you have had this experience maybe do what I did I watched the first episode I cried my eyes out and then I watched the last episode because I needed to know what happened and then I watched I couldn't cope with it I needed to know and then because it was a lived experience for me and so then I watched the rest of it so I would say my question to you though is the reason why I think the trigger warning is so important in this is that you have got a wonderful daughter I have, yeah.

1:43:36And there will be people out there who haven't got kids

1:43:40Steph:That's the thing that made me cry Right, thinking about that Yeah, because it's all the people that stories don't end in the way that they want them to. Oh my god, what is wrong with me? It is that and if you've been through that lived experience you never stop thinking about those people. You never stop thinking about those people who are having I sat there watching thinking oh my god yeah because I know a lot of people who've been through similar journeys to you and you know ended up having IVF etc etc but yeah there are people who and I say I do worry it does me worry but we have to separate you have to separate I think it's you know I think I'm sure there will be triggers I hope so because you need it and the thing is the IVF thing and you know there's brilliant scenes in there where they're confronted with doctors and women and men who've had this experience, well, doctors who are just going, oh, yeah, you've had a couple of miscarriages, it's fine, we don't worry about it when you're 34.

1:44:34Steph:And it's so common and it's so misunderstood and when you have got unexplained infertility, you feel so alone and you feel like no one understands you or no one cares, but you're so right. I do hope they put some trigger warnings on it because... Oh, they've got to, they will. Yeah. What I want to say is, though, on top of all of that, is that this is Stefan Goloszewski, the creator, he did him and her, with Russell Tovey and Sarah Zalman, which was brilliant. Then he did Mum with Leslie Manber, which is what Elizabeth Moss was talking about after the recording of our podcast that you were talking about before, James, that she was chatting to us about.

1:45:09She absolutely loved it and loves Leslie Manber quite rightly, and that was brilliant. Then there was Marriage with Sean Bean and Nicola Walker, which was more serious. He's kind of getting more and more serious as well, and this is the point I'm trying to make, because Him and Her was a pretty broad comedy, really, out-and-out comedy. And by the time he got to Marriage, which I'm sure we reviewed on the show, that had a lot of devastating moments because that was about a marriage that had become kind of calcified and, you know, kind of just...

1:45:33Steph:I'd love to know his method. What is his method? He's so brilliant at... He's brilliant at lots of things, but he's so brilliant at kind of adding a little bit to making things very realistic and authentic and not going for the easy... Even back in the days of him and her, not going for the easy quick gag, but depicting kind of people who are often at the edge, on the edge and at the edge of various issues. So the sister character in him and her was so extreme, she was this horrendous, bullying, controlling character. And he's got a real eye for that kind of people who just kind of go too far and don't know when to stop and don't know when to pull back and kind of just be a normal, decent human being.

1:46:15And I'm fascinated by the other couple. So you've got Papaya Sieda and Siobhan Khan as the two main couples. And by the way, everything that I was saying about the couple, Kiki Palmer and Jack Whitehall in The Burbs, go ten times more. These two have such a brilliant, like, joshing, bantering, Jesus, that horrible word, relationship, don't they? The dialogue between them is fantastic. And it's almost like you feel they're going to pull through whatever happens because their love for each other and their friendship is so brilliantly drawn, isn't it? It's so well drawn. They kick out of each other in such a brilliant way and those performances are, as you say, genius.

1:46:50Steph:I honestly don't know how they've done it. it's just so brilliant but I'm fascinated by the other couple the secondary couple who are his best mate Dave played by Jack Bannon and his new girlfriend Amanda played by Charlotte Riley and they are weird and I mean I've only watched two episodes I haven't watched the whole thing but I'm fascinated I'm as fascinated to see how they play out because there's a restaurant scene oh my god I died a thousand deaths during that scene that's like that for you it's so funny you mention it because I was thinking about you whether you were going to watch that scene and I thought this is because it was so unbearably good.

1:47:23Steph:It was unbearable. It was levels of awkwardness. It was so awkward and they were such balance together. And he, so he's Dave, but brilliantly played by Jack Ballin, by the way. He's such a, he's just got this weird thing going on and you can't quite put your finger on it. He's got a kid. He's just uncomfortable in his own skin. He's really uncomfortable. He's uncomfortable with the kids and he can't deal with that. And his ex, he's really uncomfortable with this woman who, and she's amazing. She like won't, they have sex in a bit and then she won't acknowledge his existence at all and rolls over to the other side of the bed and just literally puts her headphones and ignores him and he's like, what am I doing?

1:47:58What's going on?

1:47:59Steph:But then you find out later on why that is, obviously. It's amazing what happens between those two. She's clearly been through stuff as well. But they are just, he's just really amazing at creating these kind of characters. They are seemingly everyday, normal in quotes, people you might meet. But actually they've just got something slightly weird often going on. and I guess what he's saying is a little bit is every seemingly normal person has stuff going on you don't know about in their lives because that's what it is it's like you have you carry on with your normal life one of the things that he did which I really loved is he he keeps doing this scene with Siobhan's character where she goes into work every day and she taps in every day it's so subtle it's so brilliant it's so clever and the receptionist woman at first Josh is with her and then gets colder and colder And I was like, this is my life.

1:48:52Steph:This is my life. It's just those kinds of touches. I was like, how has he done this? I'd love to know who he'd spoken to. I'd love to know how he managed to achieve such greatness. There's something so raw and intimate about it. And it's like, it'll be the moments where you see her doing something quite pedestrian and normal. And then this sort of avalanche of grief just out of nowhere just wells up. and it's completely all-consuming and she just falls to pieces. And it might be something like picking up a cup or making toast or something. And this is the waves of grief and you see her just really struggling.

1:49:30And then what I thought, and you've touched on it, is that he doesn't know what to do. He doesn't know how to stem the tide. He doesn't know how to make it better. All he can do, he tries and sometimes it works and sometimes it's a little bit ill-thought-out. But there's nothing he can do because it's her whole... I mean, you don't need me to tell you this. I'm not going to mansplain this to you. Oh, go on. It's her whole identity, isn't it?

1:49:52Steph:Use a long word that I don't understand. Go on. But it's not just about children. It's about who she is and who she is as a woman and her identity and societal pressure. There's so much going on. And also, you cannot get away from other people's babies. No. And she keeps saying in, this is not going to change us, this is not going to change us. And what's great is there is an episode that addresses his feelings because there's a brilliant bit where they go to the doctors and they're in the car and the doctor's been a dick and then she's like and he's like yeah I can't believe he said that he's got no idea what you've been through and he's just on his phone and she turns to him and she says what we've been through and it's a really powerful moment and I can remember having those moments and it's just like you say everything it is that moment like you have to get on with your you have to get on with life and like you've touched on no one knows what's going on behind the scenes nobody knows you make assumptions about you know everybody you meet you've got no idea what's happening but it is those moments and I'm sure many people listening who have been through these kinds of situations have had those moments.

1:50:52Steph:It is that avalanche of, you don't know when it's going to happen, but something seemingly insignificant happened and then you're like, you're in your boots. You're like, I've just got to go. There's bits where she has to run out of family gatherings and stuff like that and it's just, it's done. And it's so not, it's not overacted. It's not over, it's just pitched perfect. It's just. No, it's brilliant, yeah. I think it's also not just about that as well, which is what's great about it. which is great. It's about kind of these characters. He always has people eating and preparing food and drink, and there's a lot of making of tea and toasting sandwiches and eating sandwiches in bed.

1:51:29It's the mundanity of normal life. Yeah, he's so good at somehow making all these people seem unbelievably real. It's a real...

1:51:35Steph:Even down to the... There's a bit where they're going back into their flat and someone is trying to deliver something, and it's a labour scene, and he's like, can you sign for 80s? it takes a picture yeah like just the genius that it takes to put in those kinds of scenes and the pacing of it was perfect and you're right it's because it's not just about this it's about their life in its entirety and if I haven't said it before it's a masterpiece it's an absolute masterpiece thank you so much for making this well we should we should get you we should get into you I'll just sort that out I know I need to I need to meet him I need to meet him he's a great guy yeah he's brilliant Babies then Babies Monday BBC One 30th of March 9pm and I'm assuming we'll all be on the iPlayer Apologies for the tears guys Oh no No don't apologise Yeah I thought you went through it got through it I thought I got through it I thought I was going to have a real blub I did say to you It's only when I started talking about it that you lost it To be fair we all feel like that Yeah It's fine Yeah Finally this week we have season 2 of Jonathan Tropper's suburban crime series Your Friends and Neighbours which continues the story of Jon Hamm's Coop and he's a finance bro who gives up the life of high rolling money management to essentially rob his neighbours.

1:52:54This season adds James Marsden to the cast as Ash, a billionaire bellend. And speaking of billionaire bellends, let's hear about this one from Boyd. Steady. Steady on. Yes, this is the second series of a show that I enjoyed a lot, I would say, season one. If I had one, again it was a bit long for me it went on was it 8 or 9 maybe even episodes thereabouts it was pretty epic and what's interesting one of my first thoughts about this is they kind of summarize they had the first scene apart from the flashback scene episode 1 of season 1 started with him at the bottom of the stairs next to a corpse Jon Hamm's character in a device that you so delight in my favourite device of starting at the big scene the big happening and then flashing back however many weeks earlier I think it was 4 weeks earlier or whatever but then it had you got to know him through a scene in a bar if you remember I'm looking at Seth I'm not sure if you watched the first season I didn't watch the first season well there's a scene in a bar where he flirts with a woman and they turn out to be colleagues and that turns out to have huge ramifications but they almost replicate that scene at the beginning of this episode

1:54:06Steph:I thought you were talking about this one no so he's at a bar this time he's at a bar in a hotel in a lavish hotel where his ex-wife and family are staying and he is looking at his exchanges glances with a woman but then she comes in his ex-wife comes in to cock block if you like and they have a kind of really funny interesting open discussion about their state of their relationship and their you know and etc will they will they ever be tempted to go back together and have sex with each other etc and i think one of the real strengths of the show is that underlying the strength of the show for me is that the whole um idea the whole device of him living in this lavish community like this.

1:54:43It's a fictional community, but it's kind of like Long Island meets the Hamptons, that kind of area where it's set with huge houses and gated behind gates and gated communities. Just lots of really rich, privileged, annoying people. It's almost like White Lotus type people, but all at home, in their homes.

1:55:00Steph:After the holiday. Exactly, when they get back. But it's almost like that, and him just suddenly deciding on a whim to kind of start stealing stuff from people, stealing jewellery and cash and whatever from his neighbours, is almost like by the by because it's like a character study of him and his family and the kind of people, their friends and neighbours indeed, hence the title of the show. And this point was made when I was in the Apple event I went to in Santa Monica that I may have mentioned repeatedly and will happily mention every single episode of the podcast from now until next year's, hopefully, return of that event.

1:55:37they talked about how they just want he Jon Hamm just wanted like a juicy after you know having Mad Men one of the greatest TV characters of all time in my opinion one of the greatest shows of all time yeah where do you go from there where do you go from there but he's like he got this script from Jonathan Topper and he's like ah this is what I want this is like because he's done a lot of role he did who's in the morning show as I was going to say

1:55:57Steph:this is a little bit like him his actual life out of the morning show kind of in a way yeah you could say it that way yeah because he played like an Elon Musk figure he's more he's more of a kind of normal everyday guy in this but I think they do I think it is a fascinating character even though he's a normal person but just as someone the temptations of life especially when he was you know he lost his job you know he's divorcing his wife his kids hate him not hate him but you know they kind of make fun of him almost and it had that middle life crisis thing going on but managed to make it less cliched than that often is and the character very believable and real and I think that all carries on this is my long way to say of into into this second season and I think the addition of James Marsden James Marsden thank you is is very clever as well because he's he's like what they're all aspiring to he's the richest guy in this community of rich people and he buys the biggest house in the area listen unbelievable it's like a castle isn't it like he throws a party at the end of the first episode which is like oh property porn's great in this the property porn is extraordinary and he is like the Great Gatsby of our time I think they explicitly mention the Great Gatsby and I think Jon Hamm's character points out that it doesn't end well necessarily but just the fact they're all enthralled to him and he's flirty and he's like kind of like an Elon Musk figure but not a complete sociopath yet I mean I don't know I've only watched the first episode you've watched the whole thing haven't you?

1:57:22Yeah he's watched it and I can't wait

1:57:23Steph:to hear what you think So I don't know what happens with his character but he does he gives the whole thing a whole new impetus and makes it even more riveting and interesting and intriguing for me than it was to start with. So yeah, I'm fully on board. I think it's a great show. And everyone in it's really good. The cast is really good. James Bond is really interesting, his character. And yes. Okay. I'll be brief because I know you've watched it also. You've got a lot to say. I would say Jon Hamm is inherent. He's got a great ability of being whatever he plays, even in Mad Men, he's kind of inherently likable even though he's an arsehole.

1:57:57Steph:Do you know what he plays? I just always like his characters. So I love him. I love him in the morning show. I love the character he plays in the morning show. I love, obviously, Mad Men. I hadn't watched... I'm going to go back and watch the first season of this because I really enjoyed it. This is a great character for him. I love Amanda Peet as well. I think she's brilliant as his ex-wife. They're so believable as ex-partners. Again, I didn't watch the first season, so I can't speak to how it all panned out. But Olivia Munn, so she's also in it. She's great. I think the whole thing... It's lavish, isn't it?

1:58:29Steph:It's lavish. it's living in that rich suburban American world. I think it's a nice novel idea. Very much like Luton. It's very much like Luton. It's how I live. It's the kind of party I throw, you know, with my paddling pool. One thing I did want to make mention of is I really enjoyed the amount of male nudity in this. I wasn't expecting you to say that. Back to titillations again. Because I tell you what, so there's a sauna scene, yes. There's a lot of bottoms. There's a lot of sequences. Was it on the last show you said there were lots of bottoms in? We did have a bottom show. It's a bottom count.

1:59:06Steph:Yeah, but then we had that interesting discussion about how we're showing a lot of male bums and a lot of male nudity, and we're not seeing as much female nudity, and this was a great example of that. So you see a lot of Jon Hamm's bottom in action. Jon Hamm's bottom, yeah. Yeah, a lot of people imagine. I was thinking, who do we see in his bottoms? Yeah, Jon Hamm, multiple times when he's got a lot of things going on. Anyway, and the other thing I wanted to say is I think that you, James Marsden, put him in anything and he makes it ten times better. Yeah, he's got anything. He's very, very good, yes.

1:59:38Steph:Over to you, James, who have watched all of it. I mean, I think I've banged on about this previously. There's something about the character work in this, I think, that resonated with me. It's funny, like, this season doesn't have that hook, that through line, which the first one does, which is there's been a murder, who committed the murder, and then this whole set-up of, he gets screwed over and he loses his job and then he is forced to essentially pay for his divorce and everything else to resort to a life of crime right and so he he teams up with Amy Carrera's character Elena and she is like a cleaner so she becomes like the person who gives him the tip-offs of where he should rob and he robs them but he's doing it because but I think one of the things that really appeals about the first season is that it's how much can be heaped upon his shoulders because within his community he's not rich like he's kind of mid-rich which means there are a lot of richer people than him Right.

2:00:27And, but it's just like, his wife is sleeping with his best friend. They've now gone off and they're together, living in his house. So he's in an apartment while his wife and his best friend are in his house with his kids.

2:00:38Steph:In the first season? Right. And he loses his job because his boss screws him over. And it's just like, there's so much unfairness going on. And he shoulders it with such grace and with this sort of real hangdog energy. And yet he learns he's actually quite good at lifting things. And it's really well done because he'll find out where he's going, but he's always going for something specific. And they always do this little fact breakdown. Oh, I enjoyed that. It's really well done. And they talk in a very humorous way with this voiceover of what the thing he's stealing is, why it's funny, you know, why he's stealing it, what he's going to do with it.

2:01:08And how he kind of dabbles in this world of crime when he's completely ill-suited to it is really fun. But it is hooked on this murder. This second season does away with that. And I actually think it's nice because the second season has more confidence because they're like, do you know what? We had this great setup for it, but what this is about is character. and in this second season they're like we have enough faith in these characters so we don't need a murder we don't need a cold open we're just going to accept that you love spending time with these people and you get to do more of it and I'm really glad that Olivia Munn's character is still in it as much as she was in the first one I think Amanda Peet's character has an incredible kind of menopause arc in this which is really just like beautifully rendered

2:01:44Steph:yeah it is that's really well done yeah and it's so much fun this argument she's having with her neighbour everyone like Hun Lee is in this Hun Lee who is magnificent in fucking everything but he is essentially Jonathan Tropper's I think good luck charm. Like he's in Banshee, he's in Sea, he's in everything Jonathan Trappler, he's in Warrior. Love him as the financial manager in this. But it builds very nicely on the dynamic of the first season by adding James Marsden as a wild card. And I think he works really, really well. And he's an excellent four because you're like, is this guy a psychopath?

2:02:12Like it's extraordinary.

2:02:13Steph:James Marsden just always looks like he's coming and he's just having everything he's in. He's just like, I'm coming in for the fun. I'm going to pepper some James Marsden magic on everything. He's great. He's really, really good. So yeah, I loved this second season as much as I loved the first one and I'm looking forward to the third season. It is a great, great show. If you have Apple TV Plus or Apple TV is it is now called then watch it. You always call it Apple TV. I do. It's a plus to me. It is a plus to me. Yeah, I think so. But this lands on the 3rd of April. Correct. Yes. Yeah, 2026. 2026.

2:02:43What else is out this week, Poyddy? What have we missed? Well, um... Just turns to... Joy, Poyd, making as much noise as humanly possible. You know, this is this is my favourite part

2:02:54Steph:of the show Boyd's ruffling and clunking and thunking but because Boyd does his shocked voice well fans of high class reality TV will know will want to know that Race Across the World is back on Thursday I love Race Across the World who doesn't love it actually I do like that so I do like a reality show it's fantastic yeah there's a show called Helen Harper on ITVX on Wednesday which shows Mark Ruffalo who's been busy because he's completed Task recently I'm here for Ruffalo yeah James has got a funny look on his face. Is this a returning series? As in, is this series two? Or is this just turning up on Terrestrial?

2:03:28Because I don't think that's a new show. Oh, maybe it's just turning up on ITVX. It's going to do a number crunch on that. It's a streaming service. Grace was back yesterday, which is the Brighton set crime saga, based on the Peter James books with John Sim. But yeah, that started yesterday. Oh, there's The Teacher on Channel 5, James' favourite. This is a third entry now, anthology of dramas loosely tied together by the theme of being set in a school and being a teacher this one's this stars victoria hamilton is always brilliant um as a teacher who she's kind of like the veteran figure who gets annoyed by the pupils being in in quotes heavily quotes woke and there's a death that sounds good yeah it's interesting i think it'll be interesting okay harper is not a

2:04:10Steph:new show but it is okay yeah it's just january 2025 show but it's on but it's new to the uk to UK viewers sorry new to the UK for this and there's a Spanish show called if it's Tuesday it must be murder on Disney Plus on Tuesday which looks very good that's kind of like a kind of I think it's like a whodunity type thing looks a bit white lotus-y is it a bit like only murders in the building no I think maybe I think it's a bit more white lotus-y I think alright that's all I have on my list but there might be other stuff that James has got no I don't think so I think you've covered a lot of it there obviously Star Wars more Shadow Lord was one that Steph was looking forward to talking about well I'm going to watch it anyway I don't know what we're going to do on Pilot Plus this week we'll have to wrangle that with Kay but crucially I will be I am off I'm not off I'm just not doing the podcast because Kay and I have a job share for two weeks and when I come back I'm going to be 45 wow I know and to celebrate your birthday you can bring me a cookie I will bring you a cookie I will bring you one I'll bring you one with a little candle in it I'm in next week I'll come down and bring you one fabulous Well, we hope you enjoyed this particularly titillating episode of the Pilot TV podcast.

2:05:18Please do leave us a five-star rating if you haven't already. Please do subscribe to Pilot Plus if you haven't already. It's vital, vital, I tell you. And you can do that at empire.supportingcast.fm. It's only£3.49 a month.

2:05:31Steph:Here is my weekly reminder that we need to do Pick of the Week. Oh, yes, a Pick of the Week. I've forgotten to do Pick of the Week. Every time. Steph, what could possibly be your Pick of the Week? Verb. No, of course it is. please watch it but watch and know you will cry Babies yeah it's traumatic but worth it oh you're voting for Babies over your friend I'm voting for Babies because it's do you think he couldn't vote for Babies sitting across from me I'm afraid of Steph is really what it comes down to I'm afraid of Steph that's obviously true I'm obsessed with your friends and neighbours it is true but Babies is extraordinary television it's just the only thing and we kind of touched on this but it's a lot it's a lot and it's borderline too traumatic for me but it's very very good absolutely and it is but it is worth saying again definitely go into it knowing it is so raw it is gonna traumatise a lot of people yeah I think people will be okay I just don't want people to be really upset because you will be but they should watch it as well they should definitely watch it please okay fantastic we'll be back in your ears on Thursday with Pilot Plus we don't know what but it will be unmissable so do subscribe and otherwise We'll be back next week.

2:06:42And next week, oh, what have we got lined up for you next week? I can tell you from a guest point of view, we will have Hugh Bonneville and Hugh Skinners. Two Hughes. Yes. Two Hughes. On the next week podcast for 2026. But crucially, we will also have Noah Wiley and Catherine Lanassa, assuming I don't completely cock it up.

2:06:59Steph:You won't. You won't. Believe in yourself. Come on. But that's it. We're done. We're finished. We're all good. See you in two weeks. Wonderful. See you in two weeks, Steph. Have a good break, you traitor. Traitor? Harsh. part timer maybe part timer okay let's remember I'm in a job share with my dearly beloved Kay that is true alright she's just coming back to do her part of the share fine oh and then crucially you're off and then I'm off yes I'm taking a week off don't even no and then it's me and Bea we'll try and wrangle Kay back it'll be a dot and apple just the two of you oh Jesus anyway look more happy about it no I'm delighted to be doing with you it's not that I'm just worried about how you know running the desk and writing the script Kay knows how to do it we'll get her in okay alright you don't need me it's fine Pilot out.