Half Man, Prisoner, and Widow’s Bay. With guest Richard Gadd

27:31And the Jack Thorns. Yeah, he is doing quite a lot at the moment. Oh, Jonathan Tropper. Busy guy. Busy. Lots of exciting stuff. Why not? Yeah, why not? Isn't there a phrase about, you know... Make hay. Yes, that's it. Make hay while the sun shines. Yes, thank you. It's all right, babe. I'm very on the babes today, aren't I? Yeah, I said it's all you, babe. Yes, babes. Right. You'll be watching the GC. I don't know what's going on there. Well, she's out, isn't she? She's out. I'm a celebrity. She said I'm a celebrity. Get me out of here. I don't know what you're talking about. Now, it is time for the listener question.

28:03We have two options here. I have a listener question. Oh, go on. I have found one, which we can have. Which you haven't told us about. Which I haven't told you about. Or we can pick up Boydy's 73 questions thing that he brought up on Pilot Plus last week. Or we could save that for a Pilot Plus. Save that. We're going to save that. Let's do the listeners. The listeners' questions. For those of you who don't subscribe to Pilot Plus, first of all, why don't you? Because it's not that expensive and you really should. And that would be lovely. It's only£3.49. £3.49. and what do you get for that James?

28:30You get that podcast like 18 hours early you get it without ads and you get bonus episodes including I should say the most recent Pilot Plus which came with a capture spoiler chat between myself and Boyd and not you because you haven't seen it yet. No. But Boyd and I are going to do a half man spoiler chat. You are. We should be doing that next week. Sure. Okay. And you and I both need to watch season 2 of Paradise. Yes. Because James 2 hasn't realised that you haven't watched it yet. And we're going to do For All Mankind. We've got loads of spoilers we want to have. Even though I typed in words I haven't watched season two.

28:59Sometimes he has reading comprehension. I do, yeah. Our WhatsApp chat got a little bit fraught. He's a skimmer. He skims, doesn't he? Oh, you're such a skimmer. He thinks he's got it all in there, but... Yeah. Anyway, anyway, what was I even saying? Oh, yes, on Pilot Plus, when I was away and you guys didn't have access to the postbag, Boyddy had the inspired idea to put people through Vogue's 73 questions. People don't know that Vogue have a format where they take a celebrity. It's a one-shot video of them answering 73 questions. You don't have to do all of them. Very quickly. It takes quite a while.

29:28It's a lot of questions, but we can do some of them. Have you seen Taylor Swift's one of those? Of course. Probably, he's watched it several times. Okay, that is amazing, that one. Right, okay. Well, then the question I have for you, and it comes from Stephen. If Apple TV's The Studio was to write an episode based on each of your most cringe slash worst moments that you've experienced in the entertainment world, whose episode would be the cringiest? Boyd's panel, where a panelist fell asleep, Stephen Frizz, seems like it may be the winner, but can he or either Either of the other co-pilots, top that.

29:59Yeah, you can't be that short. I don't know, people have listened to my interview with David Chase, so who knows?

30:06Do you not short, and I'm going to bring up my Sandra Bullock. I don't know this story. You've referred to it on this podcast, but I don't know what happened. Sorry, I'm just taking myself out there. I know that you have been obsessed with Sandra Bullock as long as I've known you. Which is 20-odd years. Yeah, so I love Sandra Bullock. Long-time listeners will know I love her so much that I named my child, Gracie, after Gracie, Lou Freebush, her character in Miss Congeniality, one of my favourite films. While You Were Sleeping is my favourite film. I love everything about Sandra Bullock. So, when I was working at Heat many, many years ago, Boyd said, yes, you, you.

30:46Boyd was like, oh, do you know what, Steph? She's doing this film called Heat, when she did it with Melissa McCarthy. Do you remember that film? Yes, not actual Heat. She wasn't in Michael Mann's Heat. the heat and can you go um to do like a little chat with her um and I was like oh my god it's amazing and I this is so sad right when I got a new outfit and everyone in the office was really excited for me because I'd never met her and they were it was like oh my god I can't believe we're actually going to meet her and then he was like boy was like make sure you get a picture because we have a picture in the in the section anyway I get there with the with my recorder thingy and we're in sort of a bit of a pen and then I get moved to the to a bit of the pen which has uh other fans in as well I was like that's okay because I'm I'm a fan and uh oh my god it's just so traumatizing to talk about and then the people come around the PR people and they say right you can't you can't ask any questions um unless you're a fan if you're a journalist you can't ask any questions and so and I I needed to ask a question it was so bizarre anyway they come to the end of the line and um I was so excited and I was like well I'm not gonna be able to ask her a question so I just was had my had my recorder like when she was talking to other people to get the questions and I all I said was I was like oh Sandra I'm such a I'm such a huge fan can I get a picture because Boyd told me to get a picture and she was like oh yeah oh these are the oh these are the fans yeah yeah oh okay oh right and so I had a picture with her and then they went off she had two women by her side and then the next thing i know three people came out right and i had my tape recorder still on okay um three people came out and were like we cannot believe you just did that you are so unprofessional i was like what i didn't ask i didn't ask a question and i started to cry because i was getting so because it was in front of absolutely everybody and then the two people that were with her came out right and they were just shaking their heads at me and going that was absolutely out of order and let's just let's just bear in mind all I did was say can I have a photo and she posed for the photo and it was they were and they stood and I'm not joking it was about seven minutes of them telling me how awful I was and why did I think that that was okay to ask for a picture and why but the worst thing was I had to take it back take back this recording and I was shaken I was so stressed and then another journalist had to had to transcribe it from the tape and she said she got to the point she was like I actually don't think I can do this anymore because it's so awful listening to you cry and these people shouting at you when it's like it was like what was supposed to be like the one time you like you meet someone you've loved so much and then it really did it really did ruin a lot for me for a long time and then i took down the wall of bullock the next day and then i had turned the picture of her that i had on my desk i was hold her holding two little puppies i turned it around and then we didn't talk about for a long time and my editor because he listened to the tape of them shouting at me actually sent a message saying to the pr saying this was absolutely what do you Was that Frithy?

34:02No, it was Jeremy. And he said, this was really awful what you did to this journalist. Why would you shout at her like this over something so small? And I never, the thing that annoys me is I never really got to the crux of why they were so angry about it. Oh, I mean. It was completely insane. I don't think that would happen now. I think nowadays, they're so, I mean, didn't Sylvester Stallone's publicist chase you out of the interview and make you delete the picture? Yes. Yes, that happened. Okay. That's different though. That makes me feel so much better. Oh no, that's my other candidate for this answer for this question.

34:35Okay, tell me what happened. But what happened there was, basically in junket situations, when you're interviewing a famous person at Junket, you often get, when you're given all the details by the publicist on email, it often says, photo's not allowed. It would literally tell you you're not allowed to get a selfie. Yeah, I mean this was ages ago, we were in a pen. It's not out of pressure. No, no, no. I'm talking about... Don't bring a back point. This is for the Sylvester Stallone Junket that I went to, which was for, must have been for that show on Paramount. Yeah, it was. Oh, The King of...

35:07Yes, that one. What is it called? Oh, Tulsa King. Yes, that's the one. We absolutely know what we're talking about on this TV podcast. Sylvester Stallone, but he was so, I was like, I won't bother him then, you know. I'm pretty sure it did specify no photos, which is fair enough. Of course it is. But he was so fun in the actual interview, and so kind of like, I'm much more engaged than I thought he would be. Do you know what, for some reason, I don't know why. And I was talking about Rocky and stuff, you know. And so I thought, oh, fuck it, I'll give it a go, you know. And I was like, do you mind if I get a selfie?

35:40And he said, oh no. And he grabbed my phone. This was the funny bit. He grabbed my phone and took the selfie himself and pointed to me, you know, in it. It was just like, it was a great selfie. We've still got it. And then, go back to me and then it ended. And then the publicist chased me out of the room, got to me and said, give me that delete that photo and I was like what? and they were like yeah we especially told you you couldn't take service I said I know but I just took a chance he was totally up for it and he's fine with it so what does it matter? and this maniac publicist now I actually can't remember who it was now whether they're still in the film publicity business I know the name of the publicist and if I ever come across her I always think about this one publicist this one person the one who shouted at you who shouted at me so like Aria in Game of Thrones you have a list and it's just this one publicist name it's just this one publicist because she was so vile to me and in a way that was completely unnecessary.

36:29And I felt like she was being hugely vile in front of the other people. And I mean, talking, there was so many people there and it just didn't warrant that. She was shaming me. But the perversity of my situation was, it happened. It was too late. So he couldn't... So he agreed to take the bloody selfie. He took it. He enjoyed it. He was fine with it. And they still tried to chase me down. I'll post an event to do it. That was why I couldn't get over this guy. and I lied and went it's fine and obviously I've still got it oh my god anyway what's yours that's awful can I just I just want to say do you know who the two people that I've met that have honestly been the nicest I did a shoot with Jennifer Saunders and Joanna Lumley and Joanna Lumley the Sarah Hotel when we did that Sarah Hotel but do you know then I saw Joanna your friend Jo Lumley twice afterwards I've seen her and even though she says she's got that face blindness thing you know she's got face blindness but every time I've seen her she is such a wonderful person and she literally is like hi how are you how's your mum how's your because I talked to her about my mum and it seemed like she remembered it was so she's wonderful and the other person that people say is not nice but I've been in a junket situation with her twice and she was absolutely delightful and I is Sarah Jessica Parker and I'd bought my an old Sex and the City book and she said she said to me do you want me to sign that?

37:56And I was like, yes, I do want you to sign it. It's framed in my house. Anyway, James, I'm sure you've got loads of these because you interview people all the time. No, I mean, I actually don't as much as you think. The actual, it's a difficult one. Like, the time when I went to the cast and crew screening of Black Hawk Down was sitting directly in front of Ridley Scott and this phone kept ringing all the way through and it was driving me out. I was like, what the fuck? And then it was, it was belatedly, I was like, that's my phone, isn't it? It was my phone that had been great the whole time because it was a new phone and I wasn't familiar with the ringtone.

38:27But Ridley Scott is a terrifying human being and he'd been sat behind me the whole time. This is his film. It's like the premiere of his film. And I was just like, there must be some kind of Ridley Scott issued hit out on me to this day that I've been dodging ever since. So that was pretty bad. Nothing, I remember, a big shout out to Kate Bosworth who stopped me from being embarrassed once because I did an interview with her for Wonderland. Do you remember the John Holmes film? and I asked a question. I asked about, and bear in mind, it's not just you and the person in the room. There's a bunch of people in the room when you need video, because it's a video interview.

39:03And I'd ask, oh, you know, was John Holmes, the famously dead John Holmes, was John Holmes on set to talk about stuff like that? And she kind of looked at me and then she, bless her, she almost threw herself in front of the back and went, oh, it's funny you said it because we said that even though he's dead, you know. Oh, it's like he was around and whatnot. And she deliberately extricated me from the hole that I dug for myself and threw me a lifeline. Kate Bosworth, you are a class act. That's so nice. So that was nice. But I think the two that I still have a cold sweat over probably are the time when we'd written a news story about Christopher Lee, and he'd been doing, obviously, Lord of the Rings, and he'd been doing Revenge of the Sith around the same time.

39:41And I didn't write it, but we wrote a news story with the headline, Lee Prefers Lucas. And it was based on a quote that he'd done saying he really enjoyed working on Star Wars. And we had kind of maybe perhaps misrepresented what he said. I don't think intentionally, but I got this call, and he was like, hello, can I speak to James Dyer, please? Because I think my byline was on it for whatever reason, although I swear I didn't write it. And I was like, yes, yes, this speaking who is it? It's Christopher Lee. And he proceeded to upbraid me for several minutes about irresponsible journalism. And I was just like, I mean, being dressed down by Dracula is quite something.

40:14And that was, I was just like, I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry, Mr. Saruman. I didn't mean it. I was so like... Did you say on the plus side, you know Lord of the Rings is the best film ever made? I did say, you know, you might prefer Lucas, but actually we all know it's all about Middle Earth. That was it. But the number one for me, and I have told this story before, so if you've heard it, I can only apologise, is the time I walked in on Tom Hardy having a poo. Oh, yeah. What are you talking about? I did an interview with Tom Hardy quite early in his career for Star Trek Nemesis. And I was there to interview him, and I was sitting in the room waiting for him to arrive, and he was late.

40:51And so I was like, you know what? and have a quick wee before the interview. So I went out, because we were in a hotel, which was a random hotel, and I opened the toilet door, I threw it open, and Tom Hardy was just sitting on the toilet, and he was just like, ah! And I was like, ah! But, crucially, he was so, like, thrown, as you would be while you're on the throne, if someone, like, walks in, that he didn't look at my face. I could tell he had not, like, caught, so I shut the door and just went, ah! I ran back into the room, like, essentially put my feet up and pretended I hadn't moved and just sat there and he just came in and he was like, oh my God, he's like, someone just walked in on me in the toilet and I was like, no, they didn't and I styled it out and he never knew it was me.

41:32Until now. Until now. He must still not know. We have to get him on. Oh my God. The Pooh stalker has been revealed. We have to get him on because a new series of that gangster show. Mobland. Mobland, yeah, yeah. I'll be like, Tom, it's been 25 years but I feel now I must confess it was me. It was me that walked in on you. Oh my God, do you remember? That's reminded me of, do you remember when C-3PO, I was quite upset. Anthony Daniels. Yes, let's just call him C-3PO. Right, do you remember when C-3PO shouted at me at the Empire Awards? Do you remember? He was so angry and I was like, I ran up to you and said, James, C-3PO's just shouted at me because I'd obviously loved Star Wars.

42:10He shouted at me because two people who I won't name were sitting in his seats and he wanted me to get them out and I was like, well, okay. and he was like get them out now and he called them various names various derogatory names and then I had to go and get them and these two people to their credit were so lovely and he was actually incorrect they weren't in his seats but he wanted to sit where he wanted to sit and he's C-3PO so they moved for him but yeah he shouted at me and I was very and when I left Empire they put that on my cover about C-3PO shouting at me I don't remember that you don't even remember me coming and telling you C-3PO shouting at me there were so many Empire Awards ago Steph my memory doesn't go back two decades okay fine Anyway, God.

42:51Wow. All of this is so cringe, I feel. Yeah, I feel like slightly awkward just for counting all this stuff. I don't know who's won. It's hard to say. I think it's the poo, babe. You think it's the poo story? It could be, actually. I mean, that's... Well, yeah, mostly because you're still, you know, flying under the radar. Yeah. Nobody knows who you were. One day, he's still wondering, who was that poo stalker? Yeah, because he must remember the time that someone walked in on him and was having a poo. Can I call it the toilet story as well? I mean... No, poo's funny. Yeah. No, I'm not... who stop saying stop saying who right I think that is the listener question I'm so sorry for whatever it is that that was if you would like to have your question answered on this podcast or indeed on Pilot Plus or just want to tell us I don't know how much you love us slash hate us that is fine the address is postbag at pilot tv pod dot com okay it is time for this week's guest are you ready who have we got who have we got we've got Richard Gad himself, the breakout star and creator of Baby Ranger.

43:51And he returns to our screens this week with the second series Half Man on the BBC, in which he plays Ruben, the sort of volatile and frankly terrifying man. And he's the sort of stepbrother of Jamie Bell's Nile. And this show kind of explores their teenage years together and this sort of unlikely bond they form and how that evolves into adulthood and sort of masculinity and all sorts of other themes like that. Boydie, was Richard Gad as absolutely fucking terrifying as he is in this show? No, he's an absolute sweetheart and is the opposite of terrifying. He's very... Is he still hench? Is he still buff?

44:20Is he still swole? He's still quite hench, yes. Is he? He is, yeah. How long did you ask him anything about his physical transformation? I did. What was your first question? So, Richard, how much do you bench? Almost, it was, if I even knew what that meant. But no, he went into some detail about his regime, yeah, to get buff, super buff. Tell you what, I'm going to listen to this interview. You should, you should. You should, you should. You should, you should. You should, you should twice. You should. And you can too, because here it is. It's Boydie versus Richard Gadd. Richard Gadd, welcome to the Pilot TV podcast.

44:52How are you doing? I'm good. Thanks very much for having me. Thank you. Baby Reindeer, huge success, massive pop culture phenomenon. Did that mean that all the doors were open to you and you could do whatever the hell you wanted to? Or did you have this idea for Half a Man in your mind anyway as a thing, as a project you wanted to do? Yeah, I think I... I mean, there were a lot of opportunities that came out of Baby Reindeer. I think ultimately Half Man was the thing in my heart and mind that I wanted to do the most. And I felt like I had to sort of be loyal to that feeling. I think of all the things following Baby Reindeer, I think being loyal to my own work was still my main priority.

45:34It was very intense doing them both back to back for sure. But I just thought like, out of everything I wanted to do, it just felt like the right thing. and there were times where I'd be like, oh, maybe I should have, you know, gone off and done a film or done this acting job or, you know, done this. But I think ultimately it was the right decision. I never really want to stop because I always sometimes have the fear of, you know, ring rust. You know, like boxers talk about ring rust when they're at the game too long. I always sort of want to keep it going, you know, just because I just want to stay growing, stay developing.

46:07And so I think it was very important to myself and, you know, to my work, I suppose, that I didn't use Baby Reindeer to take my foot off the pedal. I mean, you could have done like a light, fluffy rom-com or something. Yeah, that'll be the next one. Good. Okay, yeah. But, I mean, in a way, this feels like an even more intense experience personally for you as an actor than even Baby Reindeer. Like, you have to, almost, it seems like you've transformed yourself physically, your look is incredibly intense, and you have to, without spoiling anything, you know, do various extreme things, shall we say.

46:40So how did that feel to kind of give yourself that? Well, it was a great challenge, and I love a challenge. I mean, I knew in a lot of ways I had to change everything about myself in order to be Ruben. I think my fear was, well, let's hope I'm right. Let's hope it goes all right, I suppose. But my fear was that, you know, you take Donnie Dunn, and the last thing I wanted was you just move him to a different show. And I knew that in order to get people to buy me so differently, because Baby Reindeer is obviously so ubiquitous now and one of the most watched sort of TV shows of all time just by the nature of the way television is consumed right now and that I knew I needed to change so drastically so people would buy that I was the polar opposite to what I was in Baby Reindeer.

47:27So I knew I needed to change everything about myself. But I like that challenge. It was difficult alongside everything else because I was changing my body, my facial hair, my hair, everything, as well as kind of trying to write and do justice to a television show. So it was a very intense period of time. But I like to live and breathe things to the fullest extent. I mean, the body transformation is extraordinary alone. How was that process? Did you have, you know, advisors? Did you just do it? Did you have people from Men's Health telling you what to do or something? You know, are you going to be on the cover of Men's Health, et cetera?

47:57Well, I had a big team working on it. I had a nutritionist and a personal trainer. You know, I had a company that would make the meals for me to the calorie count that I needed. And they would send them up to set and I'd eat them at specific times. And it was all very like calculated and regimented. And I realized just how much that working out is dieting. Like in a lot of ways, like the working out aspect isn't in a lot of ways the greatest challenge of it. But also I realized just how much, how important it is to get your body in to shape how much dieting is responsible for it. I mean, I've had people tell me now that I've sort of been in the game for about a year and a bit or whatever, that it's 80 % dieting.

48:37And I think I realized with Half-Man that it was. I think before all these people came on board, I was doing it myself, but eating kind of the same. And I couldn't really quite figure out why it wasn't quite working. But the second you start eating at regular times, getting your body used to the same portion sizes, making sure you sort of finish eating early, that was a big one. you fast throughout like the evening more you feel a real change in your body and it was quite uh did you enjoy that process or was it kind of arduous i think i enjoyed doing anything that's kind of different and new and stuff like that but it but it was it was difficult and i certainly don't regret it i think it was very important for the show i think it was very important that i towered over jamie both in width and height in the way that i did um and i think it was very important for people buying room and buying the show and everything it was a phenomenal challenge alongside everything else.

49:26It's like a special effect when you're with him and you are massively, you're almost like you're a kind of giant next to him. Yeah, yeah. And I sort of, and I think it worked in that respect, almost in a visual respect in the show, I think it worked. But it was hard, but I don't regret it. I certainly think it was for the greater good. And there are scenes of quite extreme violence in the show. How do you, when you're filming those, Do you have to be intense within yourself almost? Or do you do them, do you kind of, when they say cut, you're kind of like, you know, more relaxed and having fun with it almost, even though they're quite grotesque, the moments of violence.

50:04Does that question make sense? Yeah, absolutely. I think before any emotional scene, I'll do my best to get sort of into it. I mean, me and Jamie still had fun, you know, during the filming and everything like that. It was a joy to work with him. But I think during those really intense scenes where you have to be violent or you have to get really upset or all this kind of stuff, I'm very big on sort of trying to get into a certain headspace that allows you to sort of get there. I always think there's two types of actors almost the way. You have the ones that can almost mess around, have a conversation, an action.

50:33And in the moment, they just have an acting zone. I don't know how to describe it. They almost just go into it and then they come back out of it. And I've seen some phenomenal actors sort of do that. I'm like, oh, they have to cry in like 10 seconds. Why are they still messing around? And then they get there. I'm like, what the hell? but I'm and they get the others who need to sort of do everything they can to stay in a sort of emotional headspace for the day and I'm certainly one of those I certainly you know really I like kind of keeping myself to myself a lot on set and just trying to try to capture what I need to capture for the scene and they're also quite extreme sexual scenes I think there's some of them I mean I haven't checked but I think there's some of the most explicit things I've ever seen certainly on the BBC did you get much pushback about those at all or was it did people understand why you needed to be kind of that open with them?

51:20Well, I think like all the scenes of violence and sex in the show, they're all born out of psychology. They're all telling you stuff about the characters. They're all fulfilling the stories. You're never going to believe that Ruben is this epitome of masculinity and violence and rage and repression if you don't see the extent of what he's capable of. So I think everyone working on that project could see that you can't really explore a show about male violence, male rage, male repression without going to some sort of extreme place. I think there's a sort of saying as well in television regarding sex that all sex scenes are pointless.

51:53You might have heard that. It's like a discussion that goes on. I do disagree with it. I think sex scenes that have no point are pointless because I think you get a lot of sex scenes where you have two very beautiful actors and you can feel the cynicism evaporating from the screen almost. This will get people talking. This will get people excited to see the film. And it feels cynical. but every single time you see a character have sex, it either leads to a psychology later down the line that I think is interesting to explore or it tells you about where the character is at at that point in their journey.

52:23And for that reason, I think that they aren't superfluous. This is like your second big show, right, after Baby Reindeer. And it's quite complicated in terms of its narrative, in terms of its flashbacks and flash forwards and all of that. It feels like something you like to do. Have you had any influences on that? Like, you know, were you, when you were growing up, when you were watching TV, Are there other scriptwriters or dramatists that influenced you? Because these are very ambitious. Both these pieces feel very ambitious. Yeah, I think I don't think so in a lot of ways. I think I take a lot of my inspiration from sort of music and stuff like that.

52:57To be honest, when I write something, I listen to a lot of music when I'm not working on the show. And sometimes it can spark feelings and stuff. Shane McGowan has always been my biggest influence, just because I think lyrically and sort of emotionally, he's always sort of spoken to me in a way that I think is very interesting and very powerful. But I never, it's not like I sort of set out to do like a structurally sort of atypical show. It's just like I just thought that that was the best way to sort of tell the story. And I don't really with Baby Reindeer and sort of Half-Man, I never set out with the expressed intention of really doing anything other than just try to make it as good as possible.

53:38And I just think like I'm clearly of an ilk that's kind of idiosyncratic in a way. And my writing style, I always think of your writing style sort of chooses you. You don't choose your writing style. And it just so happens that whatever experiences I've had up to this point has lent itself to work that I think is fundamentally sort of idiosyncratic in nature. But I'm thinking like the structure, like, for example, when you deploy quite a lot of shocks and surprises and twists and, you know, quite dramatic turns, revelations. those are very well kind of plotted and deployed i feel like it so it feels like you're almost already like a kind of expert tv writer tv dramatist if you like but you're saying that completely came naturally to you and you know you didn't read any books about you know how to write how to write scripts or anything like that oh well that's very kind first of all so thank you but i i sort of um no i've never read a book about structure or anything like that i've never i've never done i i know in a way like television should be structured like it in fact i know like or ABC structuring like in terms of like you hear it as something but I sometimes think that that that is for some sometimes television shows that need the kind of that have more of a broad storytelling to it I don't think I've ever I think almost like following structure or and rule books I don't think it kind of makes for good art in a lot of ways and so I think that I don't think I've ever read anything about script writing.

55:04But have you, and have you just maybe, you know, I was talking to Russell C. Davis the other day and he was talking about how, he mentioned you actually, he said like Baby Reindeer and Michaela Cole shows and Phoebe Waller-Bridges shows. There's almost like, it feels like there's a movement of creators creating stuff based on their own lives and mining their own lives and stuff for TV drama. Do you feel almost part of that movement or do you not even consume that kind of stuff either? Oh, I mean, I've seen all those shows and I think they're amazing and that's a big compliment for Russell D. Davis because I think he's amazing and his shows are just amazing but whether I consider myself part of a movement I mean not intentionally I think innately just through being like auto-driven shows in a way that I do feel like people do put me in like the same at least pool of writers as like Feeble World Bridge Michaela Cole and stuff like that because I think we just I don't know there's just that sort of they're just from the same world of sort of slight sort of idiosyncratic thinking, I suppose.

56:02But it was never like an intention to sit amongst them or anything like that. It's more just a byproduct of, I suppose, what's got me to this point as a writer. So you are a consumer, though, of TV, of TV drama. Yeah, not when I'm writing. No, no, no. Because when I write it, I want to stay in my world. So I haven't watched a TV show since I started writing. Oh, really? Since I picked it back up after Baby Reindeer, yeah. I've got an unbelievable list of TV shows that I've missed out on because I just want to stay in my lane. I learned that during Baby Reindeer. I watched a lot of Succession when Baby Reindeer was on.

56:36And the credits would roll in Succession, but like, God, that is so good. And it would be intimidating to watch something that amazing. And so I learned, you know, let's not put yourself through that. And I think like when you're in a critical headspace and you're making TV, you just watch TV and you're analysing analysing, what's that doing, what's that doing is my show doing that, and it just it's not an enjoyable process so I actually put I just, you know football or wrestling or something like that on and zone out a bit. I haven't even mentioned Jamie Bill, which I shouldn't have done, but you put through him, you put him through a lot as well I mean, it's all very well giving yourself stuff, dramatic, tense, difficult scenes to do, but he runs the gamut as well, and particularly in the kind of scenes of his sexual nature if you like how did he immediately did he have did he immediately go it's all going to be fine or did he have any kind of qualms about that stuff no i mean he's amazing isn't he i mean he's he's just so so great and he's he's um he didn't i i'm a big fan of jamie bell like he threw himself into it um he threw himself into it he's done all the kind of actor roles from the massive hollywood you know films all the way you know and this this all the way to this kind of like idiosyncratic sort of rough and ready sort of show and he threw himself into everything very uncomplainingly and very professionally knew his lines and there were so many lines and he has a scary ability to learn lines as well like you'd rewrite something the day before and it would be in him consummate professional uh yeah never complained never never there was and he was being asked to do a lot of intense things uh but i think he knew what i was striving for i think he knew what the project was trying to do and i think he knew that in a lot of ways he had to go to certain places in order to make the show work but he's a fantastic leading man i couldn't be happier with it thanks so much congratulations on another incredible show oh thanks that's very kind thank you thank you shall we move on to this week's news yes let's see what's happening in the world of news.

58:38I saved some stuff in my little news folder. My little pod news folder. Do you want an award? Yeah, I do. Okay, the thing that I had saved, it turns out, is that there was a trailer for Citadel Season 2. Citadel, which famously was, I believe, the most expensive TV show ever made. And has made absolutely no cultural impact whatsoever. I don't even know if I've ever heard of it. Yeah, so this is the Russo Brothers produced thing. It's got Priyanka Chopra Jonas in it. Oh, okay. No, no, no, I do know this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. it's got Richard Madden in it who else is in it Stanley Tucci Jack Rayner Matt Berry it's got good people in it it was so generic it was so generic it was the butterfly it really was it was so bland and there was genuinely a bit where he says something like like engage ski shoes and some shoes skis like come out and you're just like what are you doing like what is this nonsense and it's back and it's back global spy agency Citadel yeah and do you remember they were having they were going to it's going to be brilliant there's going to be this vast Citadel extended universe and they did that they did a couple of regionalised ones there was an Indian one and there was another one and again no cultural impact whatsoever but I feel like they'd spent so much money on it I guess it was never going to completely go away but anyway it's coming back looks alright I think this looks okay it looks alright but you have to watch it and then you realise it's not alright Steph's like I've seen a picture it's inoffensive you're easily pleased looks okay guys well it wasn't give it a chance the second season might redeem it You are going to be our correspondent.

1:00:07Okay, Citadel, fine. We will review. That's what I'm going to call myself. Citadel, Sealand. We will review that when that arrives. Okay, good, fine. What else has been happening in the world of television? This is a funny story that I only bring up because I think you and your Taylor Swift obsession have clearly organised a backlash against Josh Hutcherson. Hutcherson, even. Do you know about this? He, in a podcast, podcast, by the way, in case, should I say this or not? Well, if you're a famous person and you're worried about going on podcasts because you may say something in an unguarded moment, you should worry because now it strikes me that about 90 %…

1:00:43And if you'd like to be a guest on that, please do. We would never do that. But basically about 90 % of celebrity-based stories now seem to come from people saying stuff on podcasts that they shouldn't have said probably. Anyway, Josh Hutchison in a podcast interview talked about, because he's in I Love LA, the brilliant I Love LA, and he was the main kind of guy in that. And in a podcast interview, he said that he wasn't a Swifty. and he pretty much just said that he's like are you a Swifty and he went no I'm not and he's had a massive backlash from Swifties organised I assume by James and the headline is George Hutcherson says backlash over not liking Taylor Swift's music is quotes why I don't like the internet her fans called him a monster and said to destroy him and all he said was I'm not a Swift it's the power of the Swift it's not listen it's not a Chalamet is it no it's not a Chalamet oh my god the Chalamet thing I watched an interview that Charlize Theron did and someone brought up the Chalamet thing the opera ballet yeah the opera ballet thing and someone brought it up and she literally her whole face changed and she goes Oh, I hope I meet you someday.

1:01:50She's planning some horrendous revenge over this remark, which was ridiculous. Of course it was ridiculous. I know that you kind of took the view that it's just a joke. It's just a joke. It was ridiculous. And he's getting the backlash of all backlashes against Chalamet. But my God, yeah, people are really angry. But saying you're not Swifty, I mean, James. Well, look, this genuinely happened in 2020 when Terry was the one who actually got me onto folklore. Taylor Swift 7 Folklore and I got rid of it Terry was responsible Terry was responsible and then I made a post about how Folklore was my album of the year at the end of 2020 and Terry responded to that with a kind of incredulity that I'd suddenly become a Swifty and that was interpreted as anti-Taylor sentiment and that the fucking Swifty swarmed to my defence and just tore her to pieces on social media and I was just like I was sitting there laughing away Listen, protect Terry White at all costs, that's what I say.

1:02:48It was very entertaining. Oh, my God. The Swifties galvanised. Yes, they protected us to absolutely scary reasons. Well, I'm a Swiftie, so I don't have to worry about it, but I do love Billie Eilish probably more. Let's not go into it right now. Let's not go into it, no. What else has happened? Silo, season three. No, that's my one. Oh, I'm sorry. Steph, what else has happened? I was going to ask you, have you watched the season three trailer for Silo, which looks like absolute hell, because I'm just going to read you this. First Look trailer drops for genuinely brilliant and immensely satisfying dystopian series.

1:03:21My God. It's wonderful. Is it? Yes, it's fabulous. That's where you met Tim Thingy. That's where I met my close personal friend Tim Cook. My outgoing close personal friend Tim Cook. Before he got in the sack, clearly. Yeah, that's true. Association with me was terrible for his career. Although I love Rebecca Ferguson, so maybe I would like it. Is she enough to make me... Yes, because it's... I mean, I don't think you'd have a problem with it. I mean, it's starting again-ish, but not really. but also it is it is starting again is it starting again when I was when I was on set of season 3 of Silo when I was in the Silo where I had my lunch in the actual cafeteria of the Silo with Tim Apple the Big Apple we had a chat about this and Rebecca Ferguson was trying to say well you know I don't see it as sci-fi and she was trying to say like trying to and I was like yeah yeah yeah it's fucking sci-fi but also there's nothing wrong with that like sci-fi is a great thing but but the point of course is is that it's it's about as all these things are human drama It almost doesn't matter that it takes place in a silo.

1:04:16But yeah, it's really good. And there's a mystery at the heart. You'll like it. Okay. You should watch it. Well, as you know, I'm doing Endor and I've got to do the second season of Paradise so we can do it. So, you know, I've got a lot going on. Do you know what you should do? You'd have more time to get through these things if you stopped watching every episode of every show. I owe it to the listeners because then I can give a more rounded view of at least one of the shows. That seems fair. But I like this teaser and it's exciting. I mean, I know a lot about the next season because I was on set, but also literally it's based on a book.

1:04:44if you've read the book you know what happens but yeah it's good maybe they'll go down a different route from the book you never know sometimes they do so this is based a little bit on the shift series of books well I say a little bit it's based a lot on the shift series of books Boyd has literally no idea because you've got the wall books the shift but anyway but this has a dual timeline so it's got a lot of stuff in the past which was introduced at the end of season 2 and then you don't like a dual timeline though no I'm the one who does you don't like a dual timeline though god I'm getting you too confused well season 2 of this had like dual locations it had like warring silos silos as it were, they weren't actually at war, but it had like you flip between two different silos and this one will flip between two different timeframes.

1:05:19Yeah, that's true. I actually did like it, by the way. Steph. Oh, you did like it? It's not just him. It's not just me. Oh, okay. It's not just him talking about his silo. Talking about his silo. Yeah. A silo. Okay. Well, as I said, I like Rebecca Ferguson's day. Yeah, she's brilliant. She's the main character, right? She is the main character, yeah. And of course she's an exec producer as well. Of course. Of course, naturally. Okay. so ITV has announced The Only Suspect a suspenseful and compulsive psychological thriller starring Kevin McKidd from Grey's Anatomy and ITV detective series 6-4 you won't give a shit because it's on ITV but you might 6-4 was quite good yeah it was yeah it was an interesting show it's based on well here we go it's based on a Louise Candlish book do you like do you know Louise Candlish oh amazing author is she?

1:06:07yeah she's incredible adapted by Simon Ashton of Our House Okay, it's going to be good. Packed full of candlestrademark whiplash plot twists. Oh, this is going to be great. You might like this. Okay, that's exciting. Did you see that we've been waiting for the arrival of the savant? Remember? Oh, has it been announced? Yes. Well, Jessica Chastain revealed that we will definitely get to see it. We're going to see it, she said, in quotes. It was supposed to premiere in September 25, but was postponed following the assassination of Charlie Kirk. and then it's been mysteriously absent ever since then.

1:06:43But a source tells Variety that Apple is planning for a July release. Now, do you remember we watched it? And then I can't remember if we... Did we end up reviewing it? Well, yeah, I ran the review regardless. It didn't come out, but I ran it anyway. And the interview with Jessica Chastain because I am a maverick. He's a loose kind of... But not least of all, we had already... Like the podcast was already edited and done when they pulled it from the schedule. So I was like, I'm not changing it at this point. He wasn't pressing any more buttons, guys. There's no way. Absolutely not. It was really good.

1:07:12Do you remember? Yeah. I finished it. Yeah, it's a really good show. I watched every episode of it. Yeah, I thought it was really good. So I'm glad that people finally get to see that. Oh, yeah, that's a long delay though, isn't it? Yeah, I guess they're just, you know, the more clear water there is between the incident and this. Did you see the pit news that they're talking about? They're talking about the night shift crew. Oh, what? A spin-off show? Yeah, but he said that, he hasn't said there will be one, but he hasn't said there won't be one. And they said that they're going to do the third season in a cold month.

1:07:46It won't take place on another holiday, he said. We're going to go for a colder month. They're thinking about November. So there you go. Right, okay, November. Good, that's nice. I'd love to see a night shift. I would too. I don't know why they don't want to do that. But he was saying it's just a vehicle to allow you to see that their day, the shift does end, that whole team. Well, they do actually at some point go home. Yeah. Yeah, I think... It would be good though, wouldn't it? Of course it would be good. Because we see the night shift obviously in this because there's overlap. There's always overlap.

1:08:13But that's what they're saying. They're saying it's only... It'd just be like another series of the pit for me. It will. Yeah, it should be more pit and you can't have too much of a good thing. There's nothing wrong with that, exactly. The more pit, the better, I'm saying. Okay. Fabulous. What else has happened in the world of news? Anything else? There must have been things. I'm slightly unprepared for this one. Clearly you are. In my defence, I have been off. Well, there is Paradise Season 3 casting news. Oh? Yeah. which is that friend of the pod and I say that because I interviewed her Julianna Margulies is going to be in it interesting of morning show fame I was about to say I love it when Julianna Margulies comes into things she's great in the morning show she's a brilliant presence to add and I did a chat with her for this podcast when did you when did you do that I think it was for the morning show where she was most prominent so not last season the one before I think I'm pretty sure because she had that affair with that woman didn't she in that season?

1:09:07Not an affair just a lovely romance lovely romance with Rhys yeah was it with Rhys? yeah somehow I've forgotten about that I mean that was the main plot of that season it was basically the thrust of that season yeah it's difficult to remember all the different emphases plot emphases for the different seasons of the show in my defence but anyway yeah she is going to be in it and it's loading this new story now in front of me and it's taking too long but all you need to know is Julianne Marcus is going to be in it there we go I've decided that is the extent of the story that you need Thank you Boydie I'm going to say that there isn't a lot of news especially because yeah because we've been doing this for 7 hours yes because it's been going on for a while and we should move on to this week's reviews so let's do that let's put a lid on news move on to this week's reviews and let's begin with Half Man which you've heard about from Richard Gad obviously the show spans 4 decades 4 decades from the 80s to the present day and it is at times I would say a rather challenging look at masculine identity, trauma, abuse, you know, all that really fun stuff.

1:10:11Boyddy has obviously still been traumatized by his terrifying encounter with Gad himself. So to talk about Half Man, we turn to Half Steph. Oh, right. Okay. Wow. Oh my God. Okay. I talked on Plus about having to watch some shows on your phone because the screen is smaller and it feels less overwhelming. So what I would say to everybody is prepare your phones to watch Half Man because it is a juggernaut of a watch. Oh, my God. I was talking to Boyd this morning because I'd read some other reviews about this show. And I'm just going to confess, I didn't watch Baby Reindeer. Okay. What's wrong with you?

1:10:54I know. Shall I tell you why? No, it's fine. It's because I think it was one of those things that everyone was talking about. Everyone was talking about it. and I hadn't watched it, you know, I hadn't been an early adopter and then it just felt like I found the noise around it too much. And maybe, I don't want that to happen to other people with this because if it does, you're going to miss out on something exceptional. This, I read an interview also with Richard Gad where he talks about the fact that he thinks when this comes out, people are going to talk a lot about the manosphere and this is not about the manosphere.

1:11:27This is not about the manosphere at all. This is a heart-wrenching, guttural look at kind of a male love story. I'm going to call it a love story between these two men that are seemingly so different, but the ties that bind them, their mothers are in a relationship together. They are both traumatized by absent fathers for one reason or another. they're brought together to live in a you know in their teenage years to live in a bedroom together it flashes back and forward and it does that throughout every single of the the six i watched all of them um the six episodes flashback flash forward so you really have to watch all of them to get any kind of fulfillment about what really really happens and the we'll talk about this boyd in our um spoiler special um the end scene but my god the the physical transformation because obviously I've seen lots of pictures of Richard Gad before the physical transformation of Richard Gad into Ruben is outstanding and he truly, like, every single person in this encompasses their role so great they're so masterful at portraying their characters the young actors, my god the boy, I think, is it Mitchell?

1:12:50the boy who plays the young Ruben, Mitchell Scott? Mitchell Robertson and Stuart Campbell Stuart Campbell, that's how I got them confused. I mean, the young Reuben, I would be absolutely shocked to my very core if these actors don't get multiple awards for their portrayals of these. So Niall, for Niall, Reuben, his brother from another mother, is kind of equal parts his saviour and his tormentor. And it's really such a commentary on the thin line between love and hate and especially kind of familial relationships when they're not actually, you know, there's no blood relationship. there's not a blood relationship between these two people but there is a tie that binds them together and and that tie increases as you watch more and more and more because their lives are so intertwined and things that happen and you know it is about a betrayal it is about secrets it is about uh it is about how the toxicity of a male relationship can seep in and destroy that the person and everyone around them but it's so well drawn all the characters so well drawn I think the pacing is spot on it's hard I don't want to give anything away that happens because this is a real journey that you go on lots of people are saying it's it's so miserable and it's really hard to watch and it is hard to watch but you get so much out of it and there is a lot of violence I don't want you to be turned off if you if you don't like seeing violence on screen because I think it's necessary would you say Boyd yeah the nitty gritty of the violence is extraordinary I think the warning is fair because it is a lot the violence is a lot I would say the other thing that's key to this is there is a NAR has his own personal struggles with his sexuality that's not a spoiler and obviously Ruben has struggles with his past that are not revealed until later on but I I thoroughly enjoyed it.

1:14:50I felt compelled to watch every single episode that was beautifully done. The writing, I think it's episode four. There is a very long, it's like a two-hander with Jamie Bell's character and Richard Garry's character and they're in a hospital room. And I haven't seen something quite like that for a long time. It's beautifully done. The way that they play off each other in that scene is exquisite and, you know, it's testament to Richard Gad's writing. yeah, like I said, I've read a few things about it that have not been as favourable but I can't really understand, I don't really understand why because I thoroughly enjoyed and I don't generally really enjoy watching things that are that violent but I thought it was absolutely amazing.

1:15:38of two grimes. No, but you know what I mean? Like, I don't know, like I said, like fictional violence. I mean, I don't know, there's a difference, like I was talking about beef, but yeah, exquisite. I thought it was amazing I thought it was absolutely amazing and I think he will get awards for this I'd be surprised if he doesn't Gad or everyone I mean yeah Gad everyone in it's brilliant everybody in this is brilliant yeah the young actors especially Jamie Bell's great Jamie Bell my god yeah it's really interesting it's one of the most I think provocative and thought provoking both shows in a long time I think I'm not surprised that it is quite proving to be quite divisive divisive, to use that word again.

1:16:19It's had very mixed reviews. Guardian gave it five stars. I think The Telegraph you read gave it two. Yeah, The Telegraph gave it two and really did not like it. Its Metacritic average is 66. But I absolutely salute the BBC. I think it's a BBC HBO co-production. But it's not at 10.40 at night on BBC One, interestingly. Which is the slot for challenging, shall we say, dramas. That was the slot that I May Destroy You and the Kelly Cole show was in. And it's got some connections with that show in some ways. But it's an absolute tour de force, I think, of incredibly gripping drama. Whatever you think of the violence, the violence is...

1:17:08I mean, there's only like... It's not like violence all the way through. There were just a couple of incidents where you're like, fucking hell, that is a lot to deal with and but it goes down and it starts with the device which that's why I talk about the obvious every episode structurally I asked him about the structure and he was very he was quite kind of like oh I just kind of did it you know and it kind of worked out in the end he's like you know but it is an intrinsically absorbing structure whereby each episode starts with him Richard Gad's character looking like monstrously muscly and imposing arriving at the wedding of Jamie Bell's character, these lifelong not-brothers-brothers and things, terrifying things happen and then it flashes back and each episode flashes back right, so the first episode flashes back the decades to when they were kids and how traumatising it was that one of them is kind of imposed on the other in his bedroom and he tears down all his posters and he, anyway what I'm trying to say is in this long winded way is that I thought in this case because I do find that it's an incredibly overused device but in this case it totally makes the show because you really want to know what the fuck is going on between these two men and you really want to know how it got to this point between them and that is so well handled by him I think so it's almost like every episode is an intriguing fascinating story and fills you in on these two extraordinary characters I don't think it's flawless I think that he's done a brilliant job everyone's in it is brilliant the young guys are incredible he's fantastic there are moments when I think it almost goes too far it's almost like I think the shock value of it shouldn't be underestimated and I think it's an entertaining shock factor and I'm fine with that But I think sometimes, because it's making such big observations about masculinity, as you say, that sometimes it gets a little bit over the top.

1:19:23And sometimes I didn't quite buy, if you like. And they're actually mostly towards the end, funnily enough. Right, I think you were talking about, there was one thing, there was one plot point that I think would have been all the better had they not put that in. Right, yeah. And I think you're probably talking about the same thing as I... Maybe it's about the same thing. but having said that this has by the way in terms of all of the challenging material there's scenes of a sexual nature I think you've never seen on BBC certainly BBC before it is extraordinary it is graphic and again I totally admire the fact that BBC obviously he's a huge star I mean Baby Reindeer is one of the biggest shows in TV history in many ways but this was the thing he was working on before then this whole story has been in his mind for a long time but kudos to everyone involved for giving him the freedom he's clearly had the freedom to do whatever the fuck he wants to the point where there are some absolutely jaw-dropping moments particularly in the second half of the series there's one edit where you see something and then it cuts to a thing I'm definitely trying not to spoil it I was like oh my god is that happening?

1:20:36is this really happening? and I'm like yes this is happening and there are a few moments like that I think he's so I think in terms of narrative I think it's brilliant because it's so entertainingly challenging and all of the all of the kind of really really kind of distressing scenes if you like that James will come to James in a second we will not be able to deal with and he will not be able to watch the whole of his show but I found them really fascinating just how far he goes with it I think that's almost like what makes it special is how far he as the creator of this stuff takes these characters where he pushes them to the gritty realism is at the nth degree it's just well I think it's almost like almost like sometimes non-realistic in the sense it ends up almost being like so over the top in a good way that you either go with it or not which is why I think some critics are like oh fuck this this is ridiculous whereas for me for me audacity it comes down to it's an audacious show and episode for episode scene for scene and the whole thing you finish watching the whole thing because I've watched the whole thing as well and you're like my god he really went there and that's what I kind of love about it and I think that's and that's why I think a lot of people take against it because they'll be like no this is ridiculous it's too over the top it's too much I'm not dealing with all this and I get that so that's why I think the device but I always are on the side go as audacious as you want go big go bold go for it and he really has gone for it and there's the very final scene Alex Godfrey features Alex did a whole piece on it and we were talking about it because we've both seen the whole thing.

1:22:08And we were both comparing notes, but talking about it. And we were both like, in the end, do we think what happened happened? And that's all I'll say is, fucking hell, it's a lot. So right up to the final scene, it's a lot. But just the fact that his commentary on kind of a descent into madness and these men in so many ways being the architects of their own demise is so incredibly well done. But most importantly, let's turn to our whole man, our old man James to see how much he hated it. It's interesting, because I was reading a lot of the reviews of this before I saw it, and they were talking about how it's like he's doubled down on grimness.

1:22:49And he's thinking, how grim can I make this? What is the grimmest I can do? How far can I go to turn this into Terry White's favourite TV show of all time? And I feel like that might have been part of the goal. But the other dialogue around this, and I cannot speak to this, and I'll be interested to hear you guys discuss it on Pilot Plus next week, is the ending has been massively polarizing. Like, people have not reacted well to how this has ended at all. I haven't read any of these reviews. I saw the five stars of the Guardian. I didn't, yeah. So let's just say, a few that I've read, they felt quite, let's say, cheated is too strong a word, but they have not felt satisfied by how it ends.

1:23:29Which makes me want to know how it ends. So I look forward to hearing you guys talk about it. Obviously, I only watched one episode of this and I have no plans to watch any more. But I didn't hate it. I found it a lot. And one of the things that I found quite difficult, which is 100 % intentional, is that Richard Gadd's character, Ruben, and obviously, you know, Stuart Campbell, who plays him as younger, is so physical and so volatile and so unpredictable and mercurial and, as we mentioned, terrifying, that it almost eclipses everything else that's going on in that first episode because you are so, again, I think deliberately, you are so on edge whenever he's on screen.

1:24:12And I think that's partly emphasized by the fact that there's no interiority to that character, by which I mean you never see him except through Niall's point of view. So you never see him on his own. You see Niall's experience of him rather than him as an entity in his own right. So he's almost like this mythic force of atavistic rage that just kind of exists. So he almost doesn't feel like a real person. He almost feels to me, like he had big Tyler Durden energy to me in the first episode. Like he feels like a projection of Niles' Ede, like his subconscious, like this larger than life psychotic influence.

1:24:51Genuinely, it felt almost fight clubby to me just in that way. It's an absolute exploration of the male ego. It really, really is. But what I'd say to that is, juxtapose that with the moments of tenderness, which there are moments of tenderness between these two, I think it works. But the tenderness is loaded with fear and menace and threat. And that's what I think is quite interesting about this is because it's partly an exploration of the coercive power of intimidation and fear. And it brought to mind in season six of The Walking Dead when Negan is introduced. And the whole thing with Negan is he controls through absolute fear.

1:25:30And half the time he's joking and he's being charming but there's so much dread and menace laden in every scene and there's a specific episode I don't know why I'm talking about The Walking Dead a specific episode where he throws when he's first introduced he takes Rick's hatchet off him and he throws it on the roof of the thing and he says go and get it and Rick goes and gets the hatchet and Negan just sits with his back to him and Rick is obviously holding a hatchet but he is so confident in how he projects fear that he knows that Rick isn't going to raise a hand to him Well it's the confidence of codependency the thing is they are codependent these two people wouldn't you say absolutely so it isn't just it actually isn't and maybe that's because we've watched more maybe that's what because their relationship will obviously evolve over time and all I've seen at the beginning is the introduction and it is a very one-sided relationship where Ruben has all of the power because he is terrifying and Niall has none of it and obviously that's something I'm sure that will evolve and change but I found like the sense of palpable menace unbelievably stressful through that first episode because you're just, you're very, very afraid on Nars' behalf all the way through the episode.

1:26:38And even when, you know, even when Ruben and he come to an understanding and it's like, actually, they do have a relationship and it's almost like this is almost beneficial to him in a way. You're still afraid for him because it's like, oh, you are playing with fire. You're grabbing a tiger by the tail. Be very careful. So, yeah, it's a lot. It's a very stressful watch. It is. Did you watch it on the TV? A very large, I mean, not as large as Boyd's TV, obviously. But I watched it on a very large TV. Maybe I should have taken my phone out. I would also advise, I mean, apart from your theory that watching it on as small as screen as possible lessens the impact in terms of the stress.

1:27:13But I would also suggest you don't watch it on your laptop in a crowded place. Because there are scenes that you don't know what people... Right, so I should be watching this on the Northern Lights. You can only watch it. Absolutely only watch it in the privacy of your own home, whichever way you go. But I think you haven't even got yet, really. Episode two is when it all really kicks off, right? so I think I know you're not going to watch it anyway I mean don't watch it for you I don't think it is the new I May Destroy You I think it might destroy me so I but I think Michaela Cole and him in a way Richard Gadd have a similar kind of laser focus on these issues on these ideas he's really clever from that point of view okay half man then now Boydie this is quite confusing when this is on right it is a bit yeah so by the time this comes out it's all on actually it's not all on iPlayer the first episode will be on iPlayer it's going out weekly on iPlayer first and then it's on BBC One Tuesday 10.40pm each week okay yeah next up we have Prisoner on Sky Atlantic and now and this is Prisoner not The Prisoner The Prisoner in this in fact is a number and not a free man this is Matt Charman's show and it stars Izuka Hoyle as a prison transport officer recently back off Matt Leave who evening takes a I think fair to say an unfortunate turn because she's transporting Tibor played by Tahar Rahim and he's a former organised crime hitman turned witness who a lot of people would like to see dead.

1:28:37Boydie, did you feel imprisoned watching Prisoner? Well, I should say that I am in the pocket of Big Prisoner. Steph, we turn back to you. Are you in the pocket? Yeah, I hosted them. Oh, that's it. Look at him. Don't worry, I'm not in the pocket. Boydie, unfortunately, is permanently handcuffed to a big sack of cash and therefore cannot talk about this. Okay, Azuka Hoyle, I just want to say I loved her in Big Boys, so I'm a big fan. She's absolutely brilliant in that. So I was really excited to see what she did with this. And what she did with this was absolutely excellent. So she plays new mother, Amber Todd, and it starts in a very kind of pedestrian way.

1:29:10She's leaving her baby at home with the dad and she's going back to work. Everyone's pleased to see her. And then she just gets this job, taking this prisoner. And then for about five minutes, you think, oh, this is all going to go. And then you're like, but then you're just waiting. You're like, this is all going to go. Tits up, this is all going to go. And then, my God, it rockets. doesn't it? A boy, you can't say. Well, can you say? You can say it rockets, doesn't it? I don't think it's supposed to say it rockets. You don't even know how to speak about this. I don't think you're allowed to speak about this.

1:29:37Yeah, and it quickly becomes clear that her life is in imminent danger. And then I think about 20 minutes in, again, I'm not saying who, but the body count is ridiculous. It's absolutely ridiculous. This is, yeah, sky blockbuster-y, running away fugitive style you're not quite you want to like Tibor a little bit because you think he I only watched one episode so you're not really quite sure 47 kills just killed 47 people is it 47? but then the body count around him yeah yeah I mean so far that is one meeting so far it starts racking up yeah and then yeah there's some fantastic crash scenes in this but yeah having only watched one episode what I would say is so far so good it's great I love Azuka I think Tahar's great in it it's just gonna be one of those who can she trust him it's gonna be one of those ones can she trust him I'm not giving away what happens in the first episode but yeah it is it's not gonna set anyone alight but it's very good for what it is people are literally set alight yeah they are set alight but yeah you know yeah yeah I agree it's not groundbreaking oh no no I don't think it's trying to be and it's not trying to be no No, but it is clever because it's got a bit of all the recent gourmet burgers that we talk about to some extent in terms of action thrillers that have been on the streamers, etc.

1:31:07It doesn't have the sheen you two love so much, though, does it? No. It hasn't got the apple sheen, the signature apple sheen, but it's still got a lot of that kind of stuff in it. But the whole thing is, what elevates it to being a bit different is the fact that they're handcuffed to each other, these two contrasting characters and that Izuku Orr's character is the one who does it in a moment of kind of absolute madness absolute madness slash professional duty she thinks it's her duty to make sure this guy doesn't escape and she's proud of herself and proud of her job yeah but it does mean that they are handcuffed together and having hosted the Q &A I can tell you that they are handcuffed together they really were handcuffed together for a long period of filming this show so it is like as you referred to it earlier it is weird that recently Channel 4 out there, reality.

1:31:54We expect Jonathan Ross to just pop out and go, hello! They did that, handcuffed. It was literally called handcuffed. It was all about people being handcuffed together. Kate was in the pocket of that one. She was in the pocket of that one. Yeah, she was. But I think it's a masterstroke because there are so many implications and ramifications of your two main characters being handcuffed together. And it's a real credit to the writer, Max Sharman, that he makes the whole thing, makes you believe that these two are handcuffed together and somehow are going to have to negotiate their way of all kinds of scrapes and difficulties that I won't go into for fear of ruining anything.

1:32:26But you believe, yeah, this is what they'd have to do if you're handcuffed to a man who's killed 47 people. And I thought it was very, very interesting. You also meet his associates. Right at the beginning, you know, he's living in a... What's the... Safe house. Safe house, thank you. And you find out why and you find out the people that he has to deal with on a daily basis at various psychopaths of different levels and there's a woman that he trained who's after him and there's a whole load of supporting characters that are all very well drawn and so I think Matt Charm is a really clever writer and I'm not just saying that because I did a Q &A with him last week.

1:33:01Well, we'll take your word for it. Yeah, it's just fine. James? Do you know what? It's pretty fun. I'd be very tempted to watch more of this. It has a whiff of the Sky original to it at points. Like, you know, just in the terms of it's a little bit short. It has some great moments where you actually think, you know what, there's quite a bit of budget here. There's an attack sequence in the first episode. I was like, to be fair, the way this has staged, the thought process that's gone into it, the way it's done, it's quite scary, and also well done. So I thought that was pretty good. But there are...

1:33:30Otto Bathurst already did it. I was going to say, Otto Bathurst who did Peaky Blinders, who gave Peaky Blinders its distinctive feel. He does this, and he knows his way around an action scene. There are a couple of scenes, and I'm not throwing shade at Eddie Marsan at all, because Eddie Marsan is great. Oh, I've got to talk about Eddie Marsan. However, so he plays almost one of the people in the dispatch office, sort of like the police head office. There are a couple of scenes there where the lead and dialogue made my toes curl a little bit. I agree with you, actually. Yeah. And I was like, oof, you know, poor old Eddie Marcin trying to do the best with that.

1:34:01You know, I was like, that was not great. It's very on the nose. And I get it. You have very limited time. You have to convey a certain amount of information. But we're so familiar with police tropes and how... And it just felt very cliched and a bit first base. I was like, I would have maybe reworked those scenes and just made them a little bit more organic. But, hey, I'm not a professional screenwriter, so there we go. Not yet. Clearly. So I bumped on those a little bit. But generally speaking, I had some fun with this. I thought Izuka Hoyle was really good. I enjoyed her dynamic with Tahar Rahim.

1:34:33And, again, the idea of them being handcuffed together is just inherently quite cool, isn't it? So, yeah, there's enough here to keep me coming back. I like that. I've got the whole control room. Yeah, Lee Martins' character is in the control room and with the team who are kind of trying to track them down. a bit like the Capture. Capture, I should say. It's got echoes. But I like the fact that they're all kind of fucking it up and they're kind of making the worst decisions. Right from the beginning. And there's a mole probably somewhere. Of course there's a mole. There has to be a mole. So I like that whole...

1:34:58Do you know what? I've been to realise as time goes on that I really like shows with control rooms. I think it's a real... And it goes back to... Before the control room. Do you remember the Bourne Identity had the great control room scenes? With Julia Starrs in the control room. Yeah. So I love all that stuff. So bring on Eddie Martijn in the control room as far as I'm concerned. so much time talking about Half Man, we have almost no time to talk about anything else at this point, so we will get hurled out of the studio. However, I would say that that particular show, Prisoner, which drops on Sky Atlantic and now, I believe, Boydie, this drops all six episodes at once on Sky Atlantic.

1:35:31Sky Atlantic, now Thursday, 30th April, 9 o 'clock 2026. There we go. Prisoner. Yep. Finally, this week we have Widow's Bay on Apple. This is Katie Dippold's quirky, comedic supernatural tale. This one sees Matthew Rhys as sort of mayor of this New England island that would like to be Martha's Vineyard if it wasn't for all the strange happenings and goings on. So, Boydie, is this backwards nonsense or the work of ungodly forces? Do tell us. This is a little bit Dan Levy's new show for me. What was that called, Dan Levy's new show? Oh, you didn't like that, did you? I was disappointed with that.

1:36:06Big mistakes, wasn't it? Big mistakes, yeah, because everyone was shouting a bit much for my liking. this to me this to me because Apple generally have a really good hit miss ratio and then there was Schmigadoon and this for me had big Schmigadoon energy I don't disagree yeah I don't disagree I think Matthew I think Matthew Rees is too shouty and I love Matthew Rees and everything most recently he was in The Beast in Me remember he was yes terrifying is he or isn't he a psychopath the neighbour and I loved him in that I assume this is just the direction he's not the only one maybe this is something that I'm just noticing more in my old age and I am getting very very old now so people shouting a lot but this is people shouting a lot it's suddenly become this thing in my head I'm like just quiet and down you know all the characters have to shout at each other peace and quiet yeah and in Dan Levin's thing they're all shouting at each other all the time and in this to a lesser but still notable extent as far as I'm concerned there's quite a lot of shouting in it the locals are shouting at each other he's shouting at the locals to like you know get some fucking wifi to get your wifi sorted out I like the I like the idea of a comedy horror this is like a comedy horror set in the Jaws world right This is, you know, it's Martha's Vineyard.

1:37:11If you've watched the documentary about making Jaws, you'll know the trouble they had with filming in Martha's Vineyard out on the sea. And this is a lot of like, there's something strange in the water. What's below the surface? Is there something? And I like the premise of it, the idea of it, and the cast. I love Matthew Rees. You usually do it wrong. But it's just turned out slightly askew. Something's gone slightly wrong somewhere. So it's not in the remotest bit scary. It's hard to do comedy horror. It's the hardest thing. It's crucially not even remotely funny. Oh, my God. And I actually agree with James about this one.

1:37:41It's not funny either. Stop. I'm sorry. No, I really liked it. No, I'm interested. I thought it was funny. I love Matthew Rhys in a comedic role. I think you've got to kind of... I think you just need to sit back and relax when you're watching this. Do you know what I mean? Just stop taking it too seriously. Just relax. It was funny. So, you know, the whole premise of him, He's trying to get this little place on the map. And so he's getting this journalist, this big New York journalist to come along. And it's really funny. But his staff, all the staff around him, I don't know why, I really didn't think people were shouting.

1:38:18And when they were shouting, they were shouting because people were being completely inept. And his kind of level, I mean, I love an exasperated, let's go back to our love of Curb, I love an exasperated character. And Matthew Rhys is comedic dealing with the exasperation of his apps. Like, he's got an assistant who works two hours a day. And he's, and again, I just feel so, you guys are so, it is funny. Do you know what? I didn't hate it. I just thought he didn't quite pull it off. And he's got this, he's a single parent. He's got this son he's trying to deal with, like all of it. And, you know, the locals turn against him and they have no respect for him.

1:38:52He's the mayor. It's great. It's really fun. It's not great. No, it is. It's good. It's good. And it is funny. It is. You are both not good and you are not funny. I rolled my way through this. I struggled to get to the end of this first episode. I was bored out of my mind. Oh, my God. Did you not like Cato Flynn plays Patricia? So that's one of his assistants. Just there's some great comedic moments in this. I did not find them funny. To be fair, I am not the world's greatest arbiter of all things humorous. But yeah, I really, really did not enjoy this at all. I did not enjoy it. I thought it was fine.

1:39:28And I liked elements of it. How many did you watch? Three. Okay. oh just one and I nearly died well I watched three and I think that that was enough it gets better it does get better yeah it does get a bit better but I still don't feel the full desire to watch the rest of it right now I've got other stuff now watch it for Mackie Reese's comedic exasperation it's good I mean that is his character yeah okay god we've really ended on a low oh sorry it's not it's not rubbish I really didn't enjoy it it's not something you'd say to people definitely don't watch. I mean, I would probably say that, but yes.

1:40:05I mean, you literally think Roy Scheider from Jaws is going to pop up at any moment. But it's funny, and then he does because Stephen Root's character is exactly, he plays Wick, is exactly kind of that. From Jaws, yeah. It's like a remake of Jaws. It's funny. Jaws were really boring. Anyway, anyway. It's kind of a dodgeball version of Jaws. Dodgeball meets Jaws. Yes, we are getting thrown out of the studio, so we will simply say it's on Apple TV should you wish to watch it. Wednesday, 29th of April, 2016. Fantastic. And what else is out this week? Same day, This Is Not A Murder Mystery, which is a murder mystery featuring surreal painters Rene Magritte and Salvador Dali.

1:40:40Bonkers. That's on you and drama. Man on Fire starts on Wednesday. Yes, which we do on Pilot Plus. Which is Yaya Abdul-Mateen II playing the role... Wonder Man. Yeah. That's on Netflix. Did I say that? The former... Oh, Secret Service starts today Monday channel ITV. And that's all you get to hear about because we've run out of time. The House of the Spirits probably near Wednesday. they can't hear anymore I have to be Wednesday there's so much we're literally being thrown out of the studio so thank you very much for listening to this podcast we will be back with Man on Fire Pilots out