Hijack, Starfleet Academy, and Industry. With guests Dawn French & Mark Heap, Konrad Kay & Mickey Down

24:23The depiction of the various medical emergencies is, I mean, it's gory. I mean, you're going to have issues with it, Kay, because, you know, whether you can... Is it gorier than E.R. was? Oh, yeah, definitely, 100%. Yeah, but it's not... E.R.... Yeah, I don't think it's going to turn your stomach. In fact, the thing that's most traumatic is something that happens to someone's fingernail and it's not even that bad. That is intense. Oh, my God, it's dope. No, that is intense. I think you're playing it down. I don't think you were... There are certain moments that are like, oh, my God. It's graphic, but it's not traumatic.

24:53Like, it's, you know... Well, I don't know. That modes well if he's saying it's not traumatic. Yeah, but he doesn't mind gore, do you? Whereas I'm thinking of you... It depends on the context. Oh, really? Blood and gore, and yeah, I mean, it's full on. I mean, whether... Well, I have to wait till March then to tell you. Yeah. So as a civilian, I had to wait. That's right, as a normie. Yes, James. But just the storytelling and the, as an undertaking, like you've got about, I would say at one point I was starting to think, how many cases do they have per episode? And some episodes you have like six, seven, eight different things going on all at the same time, different patients being treated for lots of different things, ranging from, you know, something life-threatening, you're about to die from a heart attack.

25:32There's a lot of heart attack action going on, right? with the paddles and all the things you have to do, to the fingernail issue, which is in its own way horrendous. But it's like absolute hectic whirlwind. And the way it's shot and directed, it's like you're watching a documentary, but it is brilliantly home drama at the same time. Because it is really... A stressful watch. It's just brilliantly pitched. It is quite stressful, but it's so entertaining at the same time that you just go along with it. because it's the moments of kind of like dark humor. It's just phenomenal. I'm going to have to insist you stop talking about it now because it's too agonizing for anyone.

26:12I have one issue with it, James. One issue. I want to hear it. Only one issue. Tell me. Which is that there's Noah Wiley's character. He's the main guy. He's in charge of the ER. Dr. Robbie. Dr. Robbie. He has flashbacks to a trauma, right? He does. From a year before. Yes. And I thought the way they did those flashbacks was really weirdly cheesy. and do you remember they're like soft focus and I was like no no no no Vaseline on the lens it is like Vaseline on the lens everything about the show is absolutely perfect but these flashbacks first of all they're not needed you know he's you know you could remind you in various ways in the script that he's traumatised by this thing that happened to him but those moments really took me out of it so yeah that's the one thing I think they misjudged I don't necessarily it wasn't as big a problem for me I do know what you mean though I do know what you mean There's a slight jarring thing to jumping out of the chronology and doing them.

27:05Because, yes, you're right, there were probably other ways of handling that. But it wasn't a problem for me. No, it's not huge. Literally, one... I'm picking up. I understand how frustrating it is for listeners to be... Yeah, we're now reviewing a show that no one's seen. Well, you say that, but half our listeners in communication with that have seen it. I think that is true. Most of the communications I've had with people listening to the podcast will be like, we've already seen it. I don't know what we're talking about. Well, I stand with the furious on this one. Well, apologies to those who understand me furious that I'm banging on about a show that isn't available here yet.

27:31officially yes but officially it will be soon on HBO Max in a full legit way it will exciting indeed okay fine that is what we've been watching this week let's have our first guest shall we so former investment bankers Comrade Kay and Mickey Down are the co-creators of Industry which makes his triumphant return to BBC One this week with more tales of financial malfeasance Boydie of course grilled the pair of them about what season 4 has in store didn't you Boydie I did yeah Shall we hear about it? They were very entertaining. Yes, please. Well, let's find out if that is indeed the case. Here's Boydie talking to Comrade Kay and Mickey Down.

28:09Hi, Comrade. I'm Mickey. How's it going? Good, thank you. Great to speak to you. I'm sorry. I'm sort of losing my voice, so forgive me. Oh, yeah. You've got like a sexy little fry going on. Exactly. Well, I'll take that. Yeah. Yeah. As the creators and showrunners of industry reaching a fourth season, congratulations, this must have been this particular challenge because obviously they're not your main characters aren't all occupying the same space now, they're all kind of going off in different directions does it feel like a big turning point in the show for you guys? Absolutely, and one that we were kind of forced into doing given the way we left season three, which was a kind of operatic smashing of all the pieces together and smashing the pieces apart rather and scattering everyone across the chessboard and in some ways that was very creatively freeing for us because it allowed us to basically expand the show beyond its original conceit in a way that it was already doing, but a way that we can sort of, we kind of turbocharged.

29:10Like the show has always evolved and has always reflected what me and Conrad like to write about. You know, it started as a sort of slice of life show in London that reflected our own experiences in banking and the characters to that end didn't have much power. And it was really about, you know, the minutiae of living and working, living in London and working in the trading floor. And as the show evolved and the characters got a little bit more power, we sort of expanded it from a workplace drama to sort of, I don't know, kind of exploration of how power corrupts and what you'll do to get power, hopefully still within a sort of grounded reality of the show in season one.

29:48And I think like beyond being a workplace drama, it's now kind of about a kind of operating system and how the characters, those characters who have always had the same operating system, which is kind of the need to both survive and win, operate within a bigger landscape. And then again, like, again, you know, four seasons of a show has allowed us to like play over genre elements in a way that we were never able to in season one through three. So the show is, you know, I feel that there's actually no point doing another season of a show if you're not going to change everything. And I'm not saying everything every time, but I feel like we feel really creatively rejuvenated when we come back to to the next season of industry.

30:27And we know that the slate is completely blank and we can throw everything at it. Yeah, it does feel like a bigger canvas, doesn't it, Comrade? I mean, I'm thinking particularly, I was fascinated by how you're delving into politics and British politics in particular. You've got one of the main new characters is an MP, a newly promoted Labour MP. That's a really interesting avenue to go down. Why did you decide to explore that area? Yeah, I mean, I'm just going to repeat what Mickey said a little bit, but spin it a bit. I mean, the show started as a slice of life show because that was mine and Mickey's experience of London, of being a young professional.

31:01Every season, what's kind of happened is, you know, we were given a very, we were very green when we were given this opportunity by HBO. And every year, I think our skill set has sort of come back a little bit more refined, which has meant that our filmmaking ambition, basically, has got bigger. I mean, just because we sort of, we're more adept with the toolkit, the terminology, and just literally we feel better placed to express ourselves via the actual filmmaking we were doing and via the storytelling we were doing. So what's happened really season on season is a kind of Russian nesting doll of storytelling where we've started small and the apertures got wider, wider, wider, wider.

31:36And what we really found out that we were writing about was like the quid pro quo transactional nature of a trading floor, that operating software. That is the operating software. I don't want to sound too grandiose, but this is what we think. That is the operating software of capitalism. and if that then becomes the basis of human relationships, how does that quid pro quo and the backscratching feed out into the kind of 35 ,000 view of the UK as it is now? Because we're lucky in the sense that we get the show to be quite contemporaneous, get to draw from the headlines, we get to draw from the stuff that me and Mickey are interested in.

32:09So season three, we started, you know, the Norton Media Group came in, we had Aurora at Akunle came in, we were looking at the Tories a little bit, but we didn't. It was at the edges of our peer point story, And now that the Pierpoint Precinct were gone, we were like, well, we can actually write about the intersection of media, politics, tech, not fintech, you know, the sort of, and how, to be honest, how the, it's a kind of closed feedback loop of favours and money, really. So our kind of operating philosophy every season has been follow the money. That's kind of like what it's been. And it started on the trading floor and it's led us up and out into, it's tendrils, it's led us up and out into a sort of bit of a bigger statement about modern Britain, hopefully.

32:54For sure, it definitely feels that way. Yeah, for sure. How does it work between the two of you? So do you guys, you know, when you got commissioned for another season, do you sit down together and thrash out where you think the story should go and what new characters to introduce? Do you have a writer's room? How does it work, that process? All of the above, really. I mean, like, usually before the season has been commissioned, me and Conrad have done some thinking about how we would come back. Season three, quite honestly, I mean, like, as I said, we blew up the precinct, you know, shut down Pierpoint.

33:26So how we came back was a bigger question than it had been up to that point. But again, like, we were like, what are we interested in writing about? we're interested in writing about the world as it is today as conrad said and interrogating the world as it is today so like yes let's let's think about how in what way we can expand the canvas that said we were like what does what from a sort of personal point of view and character point of view what are we interested in writing and what characters are interested in writing and we just love the relationship between harper and yasmin and we thought okay that is a central access of the show and that's what we should be leaning on and how do we this is really grandiose and in a sort of Shakespearean sense, had the intimacy of that relationship set against the kind of like operatic grandiosity of this big geopolitical thing which is happening behind the scenes or in the background rather.

34:15So yeah, that's kind of where we came to it. And then we like, you know, we sort of touched on some real world examples. We wanted to write something that felt propulsive and thrilling. And that's what let us land on this kind of corporate thriller genre, which we've always wanted to write. And quite honestly, if we hadn't been writing Industry Season 4, we'd probably be trying to write this as a movie or something else. And then just going back to your question about politics, I've always been fascinated by politics and that closed feedback loop that Conrad's talking about. I thought it was a quite good opportunity to write about politics in the wake of this new Labour government coming in and see how those things have maybe not changed as much.

34:52We always assume that the Conservative government isn't going to be the corrupt one, the one which is kind of having their back scratched the most. But just because we have a Labour government with great intentions doesn't mean that it's kind of, you know, they aren't as emotionally or financially fused to money or operationally fused to money in the same way the Conservatives are. So I felt like that was just a nice point to make about the UK. And yeah, I mean, these are just like big statements rather than saying we wanted to write a show about sex and drugs and money, which is kind of what we wanted to do in season one.

35:20But again... We still want to do that, though. We still want to do sex drugs and money. We still want to do that. And we always want to make it entertaining. And that's the thing that we talk about in the Writers Room, which we do have. like this can you know it can make a statement about the world we can be writing about these like big issues and hopefully not in a didactic way but like this show always has to be entertaining it has to make the audience want to watch the next episode which to my mind is the point of tv like in a film you can have a bit you can be a bit more navel gazing but tv cannot be navel gazing it has to make you want to press next on the streaming link whatever the fuck it is sorry I swore.

35:58Please don't apologize for swearing on this podcast. Swear away. Boy, we're sort of indebted to you as well, because I know you've been a fan. You were one of the first people to ever tweet about the show after watching this sort of online premiere that we had in season one. So yeah, I wanted to thank you. Oh, I loved it from the start. Yeah, absolutely. Oh, thank you. That's good to know. Thank you. I mean, let's talk about the sex, because I'm absolutely fascinated. It's fascinating by the way you use sexual scenes to kind of propel the story and to kind of fill in the characters. I mean, I read Tohib Jamo talking about his very first day, I think, on set was filming that sex scene, which is as in your face as any we've seen before.

36:41What is your approach to those scenes and why are they so important to the kind of fabric of the show? I mean, it's... So go on, Con. No, you go. You take this. I like to dodge the sex expressions of it. Yeah, okay. I'll dive in. I mean, the approach, do you mean the sort of practical approach? In the script, for example, how specific do you get? We get quite specific, to be honest. We always used to. We've always had an intimacy coordinator, which is, we've never not had one. We were, I think, one of the first shows to have one, actually, because there was so much sex, and this was coming off the back of The Deuce, the other HBO show which had a lot of sex scenes and, I think, kind of popularized intimacy coordinators as a thing.

37:26And I can't imagine directing a scene, writing a scene really without an intimacy coordinator, because I just think it would just be just, there's so many sort of weird conflicts of interest in trying to get this to screen. But I feel like it's just so important that the actors feel comfortable enough to do it, because it's just, it's quite a strange thing when you step back and look at it, actually what they're doing. So we try and be as specific as possible, but that's not to say that like when we then sit down the intimacy coordinator and the actors, they don't have their ideas about what they're comfortable with and also what they think the character would do and what the character wants in that moment.

38:02I guess the sex scenes have never been ornamental. They're sort of down and dirty, especially in season one, because they were kind of reflecting young people in London where the sex isn't always great and doesn't always look that great and always doesn't leave you feeling that great. I think as we've you know done season on season and as the show really has evolved to the point where it's allowed to have a bit of romance at the edges which I think actually the show is a romantic show I know that feels like odd to people who have seen it but I do think romance is very important in the show the sex has been able to reflect that and there are romantic sex scenes in the show now the way they weren't in the first couple of seasons you know I would I would look at season three sex scene between Harper between Robert and Yasmin as an example of that.

38:50And there were sex scenes in season four. You know, I'm not sure how much... Am I supposed to spoil this? I don't know. You can, you know, allude to... Yeah. There were beautifully directed sex scenes by Mickey and Conrad. Yeah, yeah. No, no, but no, that would just, you know, feel cinematic and, you know, full of joy and as opposed to make you feel a different way than the ones we used to do in season one. But I think they feel different as well, Conrad, don't they? To me, the sex scenes in industry feel like you've really thought through different things to show. And I'm not going to spoil it, but there's a thing, there's an object that appears in season four, right?

39:29And which reminded me, don't take this the wrong way, of Alan Partridge's drawer. I don't know if you remember. Do you remember his special drawer? What was in there? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah. Yeah, again, just to climb onto what Mickey was saying, we are always thinking about impressions of character to be left through what people want and what they don't get through sex. And we do take pride in the kind of diversity of them. Because I think there are ones which are really bodily and mechanical. There are ones that are romantic. There are ones that feel actually genuinely sexual and sexy, which is quite a hard thing to put on screen and make it not feel pornographic.

40:11So, yeah, I mean, it's a long process. It's like stunt coordination, you know. It involves an intimacy coordinator and actor. It involves tons of writing. It involves tons of blocking. It involves tons of mapping out the scenes on paper, which I'm blanking on what that's called. Remind me, Mickey. Storyboarding. So, yeah, it's an extravaganza, I would say. That's a good word for it, yeah. Yeah, yeah. On to less controversial as well. I don't know. You've got lots of new characters in this season, particularly. Is that like you've got Max Minghella, you've got Tohibe I mentioned, Charlie Heaton as a journalist, which is a really interesting element to the whole story.

40:53Amy James Kelly as the MP who I mentioned, Cal Penn, who I love, campaigned in-house. And didn't he go on to work in the White House? Is that right? He did. He did. Went to work for Obama. That's right. That's right, yeah. Did you ask him about that? We did. We talked to him about that at length. Excellent. So it must have been a particular challenge it strikes me this season, introducing this whole tranche of new characters who you've got to kind of get to know. We've got to get the audience to know and understand who they are quite quickly, which I think you pull off, by the way, spectacularly, because I feel like all of them, we kind of know roughly who they are within minutes of meeting them.

41:30Yeah, I mean, I've got to say, there was just a boldness and maybe an overconfidence to the way we approached season four, maybe because we'd been doing this show for three years and we really felt invigorated by the end of Pierpoint. And we didn't want to sacrifice what made the show the show, which was a properly well-rendered, well-researched workplace drama. But we were just excited about... I mean, we have over 150 speaking parts this season. And to us, yeah, which is crazy. I mean, we cast them all. Julie Harkins, our amazing casting director, Harkin Toth. and we just, we were super, we were excited about creating a universe.

42:10We created a trading floor and now we wanted to create a universe. And I'm really glad that you pick up on all of those actors. They all gave amazing performances and I think we felt in our bones the specificity of them as we were writing them. And then Cal was a great example of someone who's just like, you mentioned House. He's just so dialed in as an actor with so much experience. We gave him so much dialogue to do and he was on set for so few days and he just chewed through it and gave such an electric performance with so much charisma that it kind of felt like, oh my God, I do want, you know, I don't know who this guy is and I've not spent any time with him over three seasons, but God, I want to see more of him, which is a kind of like a nice trick of hopefully the writing, but mainly of Cal's charisma, I think.

42:50Absolutely, yeah. We've run out of time. One more point. Would you, I mean, season four now, would you like to, how far can this go? Would you like to carry on doing the show? You know, get to seven, eight, nine seasons? I'm not sure about that I mean oh come on we have a very good we have a very good idea for season five I would say but that's no we kind of feel a massive amount of privilege to have got to season four quite honestly I mean in the current landscape that feels very rare to get to do something that's still hopefully original that changes every season that has a great fan base but you know allows its creators and that's just not more just me and Conrad but like all our collaborators the actors everyone's behind and behind the camera to just do something different every year I think that's increasingly rare so yeah I mean like we would it would be like looking at gift words in the mouth not to do a fifth season and we still feel creatively fulfilled by it and invigorated Brilliant well I'm invigorated watching it for sure congratulations on another brilliant season and see you soon hopefully Thank you boys Thanks boys That was Mickey Down and Conrad Kay and time now for Your comrade Kay and her postbag.

44:00Very good. Okay, so this is not so much a question, but it's just a nice... I wanted to shout out one of our listeners, basically. And the listener is Davy Kay, who got in touch, DM'd me around Christmas time. He started off by saying, hey, Kate Ribena. So I was, you know, at that stage, I was tempted to just spin it, but I carried on reading. And he basically said, he thanked us for the show. And then James, you're going to love this. And I thought this was a joke at first, and I was going to query it, but I think it's true. he said this year i've bought 23 family members a subscription to pilot tv podcast and empire for christmas we should set up an affiliate scheme so that's why he's our listener of the decade that's incredible thank you yeah and he said i've done this in a very selfish way because i'm always the go-to guy for what to watch my family if the pod ever followed formality then the show would lose its spark the madness and arguments are the fairy dust that keeps me coming back.

44:55I highly value you as critics on all shows which takes me years of watching rubbish. And then he goes on to say how he's listened through, you know, it's helped him through some difficult times and he's just really enjoyed it. And the pod makes him very, very happy. So I want to say a big thank you to Davey K and especially for buying 23 subscriptions. What's his name? 23 subscriptions. Davey K. Davey K? Yeah. Wow. Now, I'm not to turn this into a competition, but if anyone wants to try and beat that, I highly recommend you try. But before that, what you should do is you should marry David Kay and then you'd be KK.

45:31David, get in touch. No, I think you should be married or partnered up. Please make that happen. Yeah. No, because then I'd be one of the people who buys subscriptions. I'm like, no, I've had enough. I've listened to them for long enough. That's a side issue. Oh, come on. KK, yeah. But yeah, I want to say thank you to David and to say, yeah, subscriptions, great presence. But also on that front, I was looking at our, you know, the reviews, because you always say at the end of the pod to send in reviews. And I have to say, by the way, I think people have been intimidated by Robert Frost's poem.

46:02Really? Because we haven't had any since. And I think people think the bar's been set so high that they have to leave it in, you know, limerick or, you know, in poem form. Sonnet. Yeah, sonnet. So, but please do. You could do, how about, it is quite daunting, but you could just do a haiku, which is what? Oh, yeah. Isn't it like five lines? No, no, no, boy, no, I think raise the bar. No rhyming couplets, iambic pentameter or nothing, is what I'm saying for all reviews going forward. James, you silly ass. We're trying to get more reviews, not less. Anyway, so yeah, big shout out to Davey, Kay, and everyone who subscribed, and all our listeners.

46:38So less a question, more a bit of... Less a question, more a comment. Definitely not a question. No, it's not. I mean, that's good. Well, sometimes it's praise is due. On your last full, permanent... Full time, yeah. A suitably half-assed effort. No, that's just good. you cheeky bastard I would tell can I tell you something the postbag is like a full time job FYI but yeah as I'm going to discover I feel I can't wait do you know what one brilliant thing that's going to come out of me going part time is like James having to do the postbag I'm having to take over some of the postbag all of the postbag some of the postbag I'm going to need a different system to the triage system but I think the email inbox just some system would be good is making it a lot easier to navigate but yes you're right some kind of pre-screening is probably required.

47:20I remember back in the day when I used to, like, check all the different social media platforms. And when I said, oh, James, actually, let's just have the email address and you claimed that I was being lazy. Yeah, because I didn't want to check. Yeah, Blue Sky, Twitter, Reddit. I must admit, it did get to my point where it was just unmanageable. So people have often asked, why are we, you know, because on Empire, Chris kind of like cycles between different platforms getting questions. One of the reasons was it just became unmanageable to try and work out. For who? For me, yeah? Yeah, because obviously it's not like the Empire question.

47:49because Chris will put out a shout out of a question pick one and then just ignore the others forever like it's just like he doesn't look at any of the others ever again and then he'll put up another shout out the week after whereas we actually store up these things to cover them yeah and also because it's not just questions it's feedback it's comments and doing it across multiple platforms it just became horrendous so the email inbox is definitely the way forward because everyone is on email not everyone is on Blue Sky Twitter Instagram whatever subreddit so we wanted something that everyone is on which I think is email the great leveller yes indeed so that's it okay right well that was the can we call it a postbag can we call it a listener question we can't really call it a listener question that was the listener comment however what a great comment it was yes and we're very grateful it's a new segment it's going to be called refer a friend and the idea is it's each person has to get the maximum number of subscriptions bought for other people I don't think you can beat 23 don't say that if you can beat 100 Kay will buy you a cake there you go I'll tell you what if you do 100 then you can have some Tony's chocolate there you go you can have some That Boyd got for free from UK TV.

48:50Yeah, that's our Boyd's free chocolate. Yeah. Oh, don't do it down. No, I'm giving credit where it's due. Yeah, good, yeah. Shall we have a look at this week's news? We've already talked about the pit being renewed for a third season, but it's not the only thing that's been renewed, is it? No, Mayor of Kingston, is that what you're talking about? It actually wasn't, but carry on. Well, that's been renewed for a fifth and final season, apparently. No, it's good that you mention that, because that's the show, isn't it, when we get feedback... Yeah, we've totally ignored it. ...of people who are obsessed with that show.

49:15there's one or two of our listeners who are absolutely convinced it's a brilliant, brilliant show. We did, I seem to remember that we reviewed maybe season one or I watched season one, first couple of episodes, maybe season two, but I certainly haven't watched much more of it than that. And I do feel it's remiss that we've missed it out. And people are adamant. So you're apologising on your behalf. I'm always apologising. This is something, so one of the things that we were, we talked about doing after the, you know, the feedback, the great feedback thing that we never heard from. Do you know what?

49:47I was going through it this morning so I'm finally getting around to it so be prepared for a report very, very soon. One of the things people did say is like doing doing like archive reviews like reviewing shows that we've missed egregious emissions is something that we should look at. Mayor of Kingstown is a prime example of something that we should review properly and have a look at on Pilot Plus. Yeah, absolutely. And it has been renewed for that. Yeah, fifth and final season so maybe we'll catch up in time. What were you thinking of that's been renewed? Oh, a number of things. Well, first of all, Emily is going back to...

50:15Emily is never leaving Paris. This is what I've come to understand. She did go to Rome, though. Yes, she has been to Rome. But do you know what? I'm actually happy with that news because it's returned to form for that last series that I watched. Prior to that, I was like, come on, it's done now. But actually, yeah, it was a good season. So I'm happy about the news. Can one of you please definitively say to me, is it Emily in Paris or Emily in Paris? What is the official canonical name of the show? I've always called it Emily in Paris. But I think being on this, I call Paris. I think it is Paris.

50:47And the reason I say that is because it's an American show and Americans don't go around going, I'm going to Paris. It's Darren Starr, right? Darren Starr show. Has Darren Starr ever said the name of the show out loud? It's a good point. I don't know. I have seen the show. Fally enough, there was an Access Hollywood piece on it or something like that in America, yeah. And they said Emily in Paris in that. So I'm pretty sure. So Emily in Paris. I think it's only... Missed opportunity, I'm saying. Yeah, absolutely. Okay. Well, that's been renewed as well. and not only that but The Lowdown has been renewed for a second season which we reviewed I don't know what podcast it was but we did do it as one of the many before Christmas it's the one with Ethan Hawke yes as a truth historian yes fantastic I loved it oh I really like that yeah so that's been renewed for a second season good news I've got a bit of five news I don't know if you were going to mention this Boyd because I just think it's interesting that they have commissioned it's a working title Power the Down of Hugh Edwards don't even I mean you're this needs more build up and you're giving it.

51:43Oh, come on. All right. Oh, come on. When I woke up on Wednesday morning, I did not expect... I was shook. I did not expect the announcement that fucking Martin Clues is going to play Hugh Edwards in a TV drama. I mean, it's insane, isn't it? You've got to... I don't think you're giving it the full weight that it deserves. It's absolutely bonkers. It's one of the most bonkers commissions I can think of in recent times. Yeah, so he will be playing, as Boris said, Hugh Edwards, disgraced BBC News presenter. and it's going to be apparently a two-part factual drama exploring the story of how a vulnerable 17-year-old was groomed by one of the most powerful figures in TV.

52:22So I'm interested to see it. I mean, the news that Channel 5 is making a drama about Hugh Edwards is one thing. That's mad enough. But to have Martin Clunes, Doc Martin himself. He's an actor. He is versatile. I know, but it's quite surprising. Give him a chance. No, no, no. I think it's brilliant. I actually genuinely think it's really good of him to be doing it. But I'm quite surprised. that he agreed because it's not the kind of thing he would normally do he's kind of made a career for himself post men behaving badly of quite cosy stuff in general but then look at Hugh Bonneville do you remember when he did that ITV one that ITV one you have to be more specific the one which was a me too one he was a TV presenter oh yeah but that was a fictional first this is an interesting discussion that was a fictional character yes of course absolutely and he was also quite charming and smarming and all of that.

53:14This is Hugh Edwards, whose crimes are, you know, whose behaviour, etc., is quite... I know. I think I was more referenced, in fact, you know, Downton's Hugh Bonneville was taking on this kind of role. Yeah, I don't think there's anywhere near the level of bravery that it's just unexpected. I think it's completely unexpected. Yes. Isn't it? Your initial reaction was like, what the fuck? I was surprised. I wasn't as shook as you. I'm shook. As clearly I'm communicating. I was absolutely shook and stunned by this news, yeah. I thought it was incredible. I still think it is. We'll be tuning in. Will we, if James lets us?

53:48Hey! If the dictator lets us. Well, we'll see. Do you know who Hugh Edwards was? I mean, honestly, before all of, quote-unquote, this happened, I had no idea because I don't tend to watch the broadcast news. But obviously, I do very much know who he is now. No, it's incredible. Let's talk about Yaya Abdul-Mateen II because two things have happened. One, there was a new trailer for Wonder Man, which is the upcoming MCU Disney Plus show, which increasingly is fascinating me because it is so meta and yes it has Sir Ben Kingsley as Trevor Slattery but it looks really mad and meta and wacky and funny and a little bit off the leash and the fact that they literally even reference superhero fatigue and I know lampshading is obviously a thing but I love that they reference superhero fatigue as part of the set up for the show what is lampshading please?

54:37so lampshading is where you draw attention to something that might be trite and hackneyed as a way of almost excusing yourself for being trite and hackneyed. So it's a little bit of like, oh, you know, I suppose to a certain extent, you could say it happened at the end of the finale of Stranger Things because there's a bit where one character says, you know, oh, this is a bit trite, isn't it? It's like, ha, ha, ha. But so this idea is that Yaga Abdul-Mateen, the second play is essentially the superhero Wonder Man, but he's an actor and he wants to get a role in, well, he wants to get a role in a remake of a superhero show called Wonder Man and he wants to play a character in that.

55:10And Trevor Slattery, who is, well, you obviously know from Iron Man 3 and whatnot, former Mandarin. In my head, I was thinking of Tony Slattery. Right, no. But it's Sir Ben Kingsley. The late... He's an actor as well and he's taken the character under his wing. Anyway, it's quite meta. It looks wild. If you haven't seen the trailer, do watch it. It looks a lot of fun. But it's got me... A lot of fun. Yeah, it's got me interested. I like you channeling Scylla every five seconds. Yes, I've been a little bit... I've gone off the Marvel TV shows of late, but this has picked my interest. That has been a part of it, certainly.

55:39I'm with you. This sounds like a return to the inventiveness and daring of the very first Marvel TV shows, you know, which were... Well, show, WandaVision, because remember it went straight from that to Falcon, Winter Soldier, but yes. No, what was the one after the Falcon, you know... Loki, presumably. Loki was also pretty... It was, yeah. Was inventive. But also, She-Hulk was one of the boldest they've done. Like, that was mad, some of the stuff they did in that. I thought that was great. So, yeah, I'm interested to see where this lands. So, that was good. The other thing is we saw a picture of self-same actor in his role as John Creasy in the TV show adaptation of Man on Fire, which is obviously an adaptation of the novel series by A.J.

56:18Quennell, not specifically the Tony Scott film Man on Fire, which is fabulous. But I've read the book, actually, of Man on Fire. And it is quite different from the Tony Scott film. But yeah, he's playing the character in that. Is that a Denzel Washington character? It's a Denzel Washington character, yeah. because he's like a former mercenary, he's like a soldier and he's got PTSD and he's an alcoholic and he gets a job essentially as a bodyguard to a young girl played by Dakota Fanning in the film and things happen and he goes on a tear. Let's just say that. And there is a significant body count.

56:48But yeah, that's coming soon. Yeah, I look forward to that. It's a brilliant film, yeah. Any other news? No film news for me. Okay, we've been schooled. No film news from Kay. Okay, fine. Let's move on. Time now for this week's second guests. And they are, as you've already heard, Mark Heap and Dawn French. And they are on our screens at the moment in Can You Keep a Secret? which is airing on BBC One. And if you weren't listening, when Boyd was talking earlier, they're a retired couple living in the West Country who embark on a scheme of, shall we say, dubious legality when Mark Heap's character is erroneously declared dead.

57:22Boydy, what was it like making actual, actual Dawn French? It was great. She remembered me from years gone by. Of course she did. No one forgets you, Boydo. I did an on-set report for Heat on French and Saunders, the most recent, I mean, this is going back years, but yeah, she was actually filmed at the BBC. Remember that? They did kind of a series on which there are loads of sketches filmed taking place in offices within the BBC. So yeah, she remembered me. That was nice. And Mark Heap's brilliant as well. Oh, Friday night dinner. Yeah, legend. Legend. Excellent. Well, let's hear it for ourselves.

57:54This is Dawn French and Mark Heap versus Boyd. I'll get you in a headlock. Physically, physically, if we have a fight, what do you think would happen? I'd have you in a headlock before you could say jackpot. But I'd have bitten your knees by then and you wouldn't even know it. You'd have been felled at the knee. I'd lie doggo and give you a false sense of security. Would you? And then certainly go, yeah, yeah, like that. That's what happens when you know that. That is the advice if you're going to be attacked by an alligator, by the way. Go limp. Go limp and pretend you're already dead. Can I just say to Dawn French to mark it but i didn't think about advice about being attacked by an alligator would be the thing that we start with it's important to know yeah it was all very important welcome to the pilot tv podcast how's it going how are you doing pretty good yeah excited gearing up for full-on publicity for can you keep a secret yeah um now i seem to remember the two of you playing husband and wife before yes so what gives is it did you were you just both cast in this show and it's because we maritally come together for research purposes for several weeks before we started.

59:01Always handy. Always with protection. We're method. And how does the on-screen marriage compare to the off-screen one and the one that you've had before in the previous show that you were in, The Trouble with Maggie Cole? Yeah, it's different, wouldn't you say? Very different, yes. The characters are completely different and obviously the conceit is completely different. Yes. You're morally dubious in both of them, aren't they? Well, that's true. That is true. So maybe... When you get drunk and spill the beans on the village, this new... ...commit larceny and fraud on a major scale. I do. I do.

59:38But all for the best, Mark, wouldn't you say? I suppose so. Well, that's the question. Is it all for the best? So let's say this conceit to which you refer, and this isn't a spoiler, because people are going to complain about spoilers. You must be accustomed to that by now. But this happens in the first two, three minutes. It's the premise, I like to call it, where you have faked your death. I haven't faked it. No, I just thought I was fine. I came to. And in the meantime, I've been declared dead and she's nibbled all the money. You've taken advantage of the situation. I have taken advantage of a sort of sliding doors moment that has presented itself to me.

1:00:15So I wasn't looking for this, but in that moment it seems like good sense uh to a man who hardly goes out anyway um and to a family who've been shafted frankly uh by the insurance company who don't allow you to claim it if you if you have parkinson's which william does have um and it just occurs to you know mad debbie in that moment that this is a huge opportunity that she doesn't want to pass up on you call her mad if she what's the extent of the madness do you think no it's not madness really moral vacuity yeah there is that it's a bit like nicking from a supermarket well they make lots of profit don't they and they rip off the customers so I may as well just shove it in my bag sorry it's wrong it's just plain wrong but she feels sort of righteous I think about it and for a woman who doesn't like to be thought of as wrong at any point in her life.

1:01:20She thinks this is the right decision. And I think once they jump in, they're in. So, you know, they're after. They have to try and rescue everything. It's fair to say that in the relationship, you're in charge. I mean, that is quite clear, isn't it, from the start? Well, I'm certainly the bossiest there. I think William has his ways. I think he's learnt, well, that's for you to say, really, but he's learnt how to handle her, I think. And that's by allowing her to go first. It's a very well-worn in marriage relationship, I think. You know, all I have to do is say, hello, you, you, and she goes, oh.

1:02:00And if I want my way, and I don't mind being told off. I like it. That's a good point, because it does seem to be a marriage that's working. It works very well. Yeah. And you might expect the comedy to come from, you know, the two of you bickering but actually there's a kind of there is a kind of romantic quality to that relationship which is nice definitely there's a history and it's been a long uh marriage and it's comfortable even though there is but you know a quota of bickering and they're still at it which is mentioned several times yes to poor old craig's discomfort yes um that we keep referring to our vigorous sex life yes we're wrestling yeah all of that all of that stuff you know Now, upon investigation, this is written by Simon Mayhew Archer.

1:02:47Now, I remember the Mayhew Archer who wrote Vicar of Dibley. Yes, indeed. With Richard Curtis. He probably gets less attention than Richard Curtis. Yes, he's a bit of an unsung genius, actually. And now his son turns out to be a great comedy writer as well, John, This Country. So what was it about him and his scripts and everything that enticed you to the show? Well, Paul Mayhew Archer bullied me. That's the first thing to say. He did write to me and say, look, I know I'm supposed to go by your agent with all of this, but I'm old and I've got Parkinson's and I don't care. And it's my son. So he's written a script.

1:03:25And would you like to read it? And I thought, oh, no. I really wasn't looking for another sitcom and I thought this is going to be awkward because I'm going to have to find polite things to say when I politely pass on it but then I read it and it's only good so then I had to and also Paul has been involved in a way, it's about Paul in lots of ways Did you talk to him about the Parkinson's aspect? Yes and Simon who's quite a good guide into what it's like living. And actually, I watched his podcast, I can't remember what it's called, Living with Parkinson's, about the wit of him and the humour of, he deals with the situation with a great deal of humour and humanity.

1:04:13And a lot of that is in the script. You know, his chocoholity. Chocoholification. I like it, your word. His chocoholicness. He's addicted to chocolate. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. But obviously the bit of Parmesan I'm playing is that you get the first few years for free, as it were, before the symptoms really get horrible. So he's a good guide for little moments about hands being a bit stiff, a bit shuffly with the feet. It's such a rotten disease. but he's still in the thick of it. He's remarkably jolly about it. He's just mucking about, isn't he? Well, he wants to live until he can't, you know, and he finds it hilarious, a lot of it.

1:04:56As you say, he for a long time was in that, you know, the plateau sort of stage of it. And he took a show to Edinburgh about it, for goodness sake. That's what I'm saying. And he's been very inclusive, does a podcast about it. He's got a podcast, which we're going to have to be on. That's probably weird. He does turn up in this show. yes he's there and a chemist yeah he is okay yeah he is another thing that shows up in the series late late on is is your you nude um which which is obviously you know what the what the audience wants yes how do you feel about that um that scene when you when you read that scene the script did you like yes i'm going to be in the bath naked it's going to be no the opposite of that obviously i'm quite used to um my arse has graced the screen on several occasions It has.

1:05:45On piglets as well. Have you? The old cheeks are out again. Was that series two of piglets? Yeah. Okay. Do you think you've got a sort of hilarious body? Yep. Yeah. Must be that then. Must be that. No, they actually said in piglets, the arse, the people thought it was, because it was so porcelain-like and perfect, that they thought it was a fake arse. So then. Is that what they told you? No, I did have a little bit of modesty. Yeah. I don't want Winkles flapping about in that slot. No, that's a terrible... Not the slot. Not the slot. Flapping about in the slot. We don't want that. In the air. In the air.

1:06:25That's got it. Again, it's so sad, isn't it, in the moment that he can't get out. He's been stuck in the bath for three hours because the muscle's just not working. Absolute nightmare. Yeah, that is the worst nightmare, yeah. Dawn, in this case, you haven't decided to go nude. I was interested when you said that to Mark that, you know, he was nude because that's what the audience obviously want. And obviously the audience don't want me to get my kit off because I'm longing to. I mean, you know, I can't wait, obviously, but I haven't been asked. Well, there's another sitcom. Maybe, you know, there could be another one.

1:06:59Talking of which this is interesting because it's described as a sitcom officially by the BBC. I noted, but actually it's an ongoing narrative, really, isn't it? You could come back for a second series. you couldn't go on and on and on like you know one foot in the grave or because it's friends it will have yeah it's gonna have to have an ending at some point one way or another which i've got an idea of how it might but i'm not telling you fair enough would you like it to carry it to be continuing oh yes absolutely there's so much more there's so much more i mean you'd never really know until you start filming something how much fun you're gonna have doing it and to be honest I mean, I'll be 70 in a couple of years' time.

1:07:36And if you don't have fun doing something, there's just no point. And we actually did really enjoy it. The mixture of the chemistry and just the mixture of all the people, including crew and everything, was really good. I mean, it was an absolute joy to see the two of you two, you know, TV comedy gods together. Oh, hey, gods. I think so. Yeah. Okay. I'll take that then. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. George Cuney! really do you think what were you to say you are George Clooney the new George Clooney yeah but I don't know if he's a comedy god he's a god obviously delusional exactly yeah exactly congratulations it's fantastic congratulations thank you so much cheers it is a strange hybrid that's what I would say yes I know they're calling it a sitcom but it's also a thriller and I can't remember if I've ever seen in a sitcom that's a thriller.

1:08:34It is really unusual. Can you think of one? Not off the top of my head. No, there's a few kind of sitcoms that have narratives that aren't really, yeah, that kind of go on, but not in the thriller, in the sense of the suspense that you get out of the situation. And that's, yeah. And you know, there have been people who've said to me, well, that could never happen, could it? You couldn't hide a person. Well, actually, people have tried to do this. There's always a woman only recently who woke up in the morgue. Was there? Yeah. Thank you for that. And I'm that bombshell. I read it in the newspapers.

1:09:05So it's got to be true. She was dead and she went, oh, what's going on? And they said, oh, my God, we're just about to bury you. Yeah. It happens. So get up in the loft and let's claim the insurance. Yeah, exactly. Fantastic. I mean, that is a perfect place to end. Yeah. Even though I thought I was ending about two weeks ago. Yeah, I know. Sorry, boy. I've eeked out the time. It's a triumph. Thank you. That was Dawn French and Mark Heap. Time now for this week's reviews. and we begin with Hijack on Apple TV+. Season two of Hijack, I should say. This was what we described, I think, as one of the original gourmet burger shows.

1:09:39And we very, very much enjoyed the story of Idris Elba's Sam Nelson, who gets caught up in a hijacking on a plane. Now, that all gets resolved. However, proving that Idris Elba should never go near public transportation, he is now on a train. And wouldn't you know it, the same ship happens to the same guy twice. Or does it? Boydie I can't turn to you because you interviewed Jim Fieldsmith the showrunner and Idris Elba for this show you're going to hear that interview on next week's podcast but because you are in the pocket of Big Hijack we turn to Kay the voice of reason yes what did you think of season two?

1:10:17I enjoyed this I wondered how they were going to pull it off because frankly as you said we've seen Sam Nelson aka Idris on a plane that got hijacked we saw how he dealt with that and then when we heard that series two had been commissioned I was like what I think we all said, wait, another plane? What? And then obviously the train element adds a fresh dynamic to it. But again, you're kind of like, wait, is he just going to end up being this ridiculous, unluckiest commuter ever alive? But they've handled it in a smart way because it's connected to the first series somehow. At the very least, we know that Sam Nelson, he's got a meeting with a man from the Federal Office of Justice at the British Embassy.

1:10:56He's currently in Berlin, and he's presumably on his way to that meeting. but so he's at the central station in Berlin I don't know what it's called but so many things happen it's a brilliant setting for something like this because so many things happen that adds to the tension of the situation because you know something bad's going to happen across the town there's a raid where it becomes clear that there is some kind of terrorist attack that is either imminent or you know we don't know what's going on but it adds to the pressure of this situation where you're like he's clearly walking into some dangerous situation and everyone becomes a suspect So whether it's the guy he's helping down the stairs with a pram, or there's a gaggle of kids, one of them's very nervous.

1:11:36So you're kind of like, wait, are they something? You're constantly second-guessing everything. Meanwhile, he himself is acting very shifty, constantly checking out CCTV, which adds to the stress of the situation. And then, yeah, lo, something happens to the train, it's in a dangerous situation, and it's taken over by the baddies. and you're like, how can this happen again? How is he involved? How is he going to stop it? I found it very enjoyable, even though like half the time I was watching it, I was constantly waiting for the big twist to happen or because you know where this is going. But I think they've done something very clever in this, which keeps you on your toes and that's what makes it very entertaining.

1:12:19And Idris is just obviously quite a magnetic presence on screen. I have to give a shout out to one particular character. there's this I think her name is it May? She's an intern who he met in Singapore and she helped him with some kind of deal he was working on Oh yeah she's brilliantly irritating She is brilliantly irritating She talks non-stop to Sam He's clearly like figuring out logistics He's clearly got a lot in his mind He knows something's unfolding whatever and she is rabbiting on and honestly you want to reach into that screen and shut her up but yeah she very much adds to the stresses the situation she's a really funny character because it's like in normal life if you were if you taking the journey on a train and a really irritating person you vaguely know remembers you and starts banging on about it and won't stop speaking is going to be incredibly irritating anyway let alone the fact that he's in a life or death situation in a hijacked train and yeah exactly and the thing is in that situation if you sort of see someone at a distance that you know and you don't really want to talk to or if you've had enough of talking to someone you can subtly either move on to a different carriage but she follows him.

1:13:25It's like that time. Remember that time when I was on the tube and you suddenly wandered and we ended up on the same carriage completely by chance. Actually, he's not joking. Boyd kept trying to walk away and you followed him and you wouldn't stop talking. Honestly, we had a weird incident where I was coming back from the airport randomly on the tube and it was the other way around. I was on the tube and Boyd just walked on my carriage and I was like, what? Like, you're bananas. Anyway, I tried to shake him off. I've tried for two decades. What can you say? You were the Idris Elba in that situation.

1:13:51Yeah, you were the annoying incident. This is one of the things, you know, I was saying before about The Pit, when I was waffling on about that for much too long. This is the kind of show where, even more than season one, I think, just the sheer level of ambition to pull off a series set by and large in the enclosed space of a train. Lest we forget, a corridor on wheels. Yes, there is, on tracks. In some ways, you could call a corridor on wheels. with hundreds of passengers, I mean, certainly dozens of them we meet, we see, let alone the ones further back in the carriage as it was back in the train.

1:14:31Not only that, they have to come up with a plausible explanation of how the main character would be involved in such a similar hijack on transport as in series one, which they do brilliantly, as you alluded to, whether it's the great use of the word alluded or not, I don't care. Not only all of that, but they sell it in Berlin. Yes. this kind of complete you know Jim Phil Smith who mentions in my interview with him and Idris that he did live in Berlin so he knows Berlin so it's not completely random but still like imagine depicting it in the underground here it would be like so difficult and challenging and half of it is in German because quite rightly it's all it's this isn't you know they're not playing around with the authenticity half the characters are speaking German because they're German it's set in Berlin then you've got like the whole situation of having to make a fast-moving train appear to be completely believable and authentic and real, which it does, all the way through.

1:15:29I don't think... I mean, James is always the judge of these things in terms of... LED volumes? No, it's fine. LED volumes, and by the way, you know there was a complete explanation by James Cameron of LED volumes on the new The Rest is Entertainment Q &A episode. How weird. People think I hate that show, by the way, but I do obviously listen to every single fucking episode. But yeah, they got James Cameron to answer this question. We literally had a discussion yesterday on Final Fantasy. and he explains what a volume is because I think it's such a misleading name it's a stupid name anyway anyway by the by back to hijack pay three pounds to get that kind of gold just the sheer difficulty and I said this to Jim I don't know I can't even remember whether I said it to him during the actual interview recording or whether I just said it in chatting away in getting ready for the interview but and he was yeah it was a massive fucking headache that I set for myself to make this thing actually can you imagine doing it as you say on the tube because you'd be on the northern line and you have some bellend, like some plum like James, who just walks into the scene.

1:16:22Watching heated rivalry. Yeah, exactly. They'd have to reset. Yeah. So just as an undertaking, it's insane. And they've pulled it off because it is, you completely, it seems completely real. The, everything feels, you know, totally authentic. I love the number of red herrings as well, actually. And yet within it, you know, to go back to the gourmet burger element of it, the burger element, there are some brilliant twists and moments where you're like, oh, you know, really? Would that happen? And I think Jim, George Kay, the season one was co-created by Jim Phil Smith and George Kay. I think George Kay didn't have much to do with this season.

1:16:57This is mainly Jim as showrunner because George Kay does other stuff, is doing other stuff hugely in demand, including... Lupin. Lupin, exactly. Can't wait for the new series of that. But I just think this is such a... I think it totally lives up to certainly what I loved about season one. And I love this kind of thing anyway. It's like a disaster movie where you meet all the passengers and you have to kind of keep that plate going, if you like. And if I had one criticism of this series, and I've seen the whole thing, James and I banged on about how we got all the episodes given to us on the Apple portal.

1:17:37Spoils. Yeah, totally spoil. If I had one minor critique, criticism, it would be that sometimes there's long gaps between getting back in touch with the passengers. Do you know what I mean? So initially, the first episode does a really good job of introducing quite a lot of characters and to set up the situation, because you've also got the control room, by the way. And I love a control room scene as well. Yeah, that's a good insight. Yeah, all of that, you know, which people, if you like film, there's loads of films, the runaway trains, you know, the taking of Pellin 123. If you're a tube slash train spotter like Boyd, you're going to absolutely love it.

1:18:09Yeah. So you've got all the actual Berlin, people managing the whole Berlin subway system. You meet them, and you meet Idris, and you meet the train driver, and you meet all of these passengers. Now, for me, there are times when they didn't get back to the passengers too much for me. Oh, you wanted to revisit them more? I wanted to revisit them more than they did. Sorry, I'm being ineloquent in describing that. You wanted more May action, basically, that inter... Yeah, and it's that disaster movie element of it. I think it was easier to do it in the plane version, right? Because geographically, in the space...

1:18:40Right, and because he'd be looking across the person nesting him, across the aisle. you're right there was more passenger interplay with this because of the way without spoilers because of the way it plays out you'd have to actually shift carriages you know what I mean you'd actually have to physically move and there's no reason for you to move so you don't tend to 100 % but having said that they still you still do get to know quite a few of those characters I just personally would have wanted slightly more of that but in terms of you know keeping up the excitement keeping up the whole you're they set up such an intriguing premise as to how he's ended up in this situation you're plunged right into Idris' world and he's like what the fuck is going on and trying to understand what is happening to him and to the character and to the wider situation is just endlessly fascinating and gripping so it's just a brilliantly done thing isn't it and I can only hope they do a hijack 3 I don't know keep them coming on a bus on a boat that may have been done before the bus that couldn't slow down we need to we need to have a discussion on Pilot Plus We need to do a spoiler chat about this.

1:19:47Because at some point, we have to kind of wait, really, until it's all played out, which is a shame. Because there are a couple of big questions I have where in my head, there is at least one enormous, you could drive a train through it plot hole. But it could just be that I'm wrong and I want to discuss it. Is that in the first episode you discovered that? No, I wouldn't say it's a first episode thing. There's a thing that happens. and all the way through I'm like this thing seems obvious to me I must be missing something and I may be I may be missing something it could be that I'm just an idiot but there seemed to be one very particular you know cavernous jubilee line sized hole so we must discuss that this is as we've said before like a gourmet burger type show it's incredibly addictive it's incredibly watchable and you are exactly right I think Idris Elba almost in any part he plays he has an on screen charisma he's got that movie star quality doesn't he he's so watchable your attention.

1:20:43He's an incredibly watchable actor. And watching him do almost anything, he'd be like washing the dishes. He somehow makes it entertaining. And I really like the idea of this. And I think it's really cleverly tied in because the first season, to a certain extent, is quite contained. It's like, well, how do you... Basically, it's diehard two syndrome. It's like, how do you engineer it so this character is in a similar situation? I mean, maybe you just have Bruce Willis go, how can the same shit happen to the same guy twice? You know, right? maybe it's as simple as that but the lampshade the lampshade but this guy this like as in this this guy Sam Nelson the way he ends up back in the situation is much more strategic it's much more intricate it's much more like the DNA it really intermingles with the first season I will say I and there are some big rug pulls in this there's some very big rug pulls like it messes with your expectations quite a lot I don't think this is as good as the first series I don't think that's necessarily anyone's fault I think by definition no but genuinely it's someone's fault no but I think it's really difficult to follow because you have this really clean idea of this hijack plane that's a really you know it's a very there's a purity to that set up like constant air traffic controller on the ground you know sun in peril it's got very clear threads to it and then like a train by definition I think is a more difficult proposition and following up the first one was always going to be a more difficult proposition and this one I would say is naughtier from a plot point of view and I actually think that Berlin setting really helps it because it gives it a different texture and a different flavour and a different feel and I think having that cultural kind of abrasion I think gives it something that so it doesn't feel like the first series I think there are a few episodes in this I say a few there's maybe sort of segments in one or two of the episodes where I felt a little bit like the momentum trailed off I'm not going to give any spoilers as to the reasons why but there are moments where I felt it slowed down a little bit and I kind of wanted it to kind of keep up that relentless pressure which I think the first season really does.

1:22:42So I really liked it. I really had a good time with it. But for me, it was definitely a lesser instalment than the first one. Oh, I didn't particularly come away with it without thinking that at all. I think it's different enough. I think it's really clever how different it is. And you're right, the Berlin setting helps a lot because you see a lot of it. It feels like wintry and chilly. Absolutely that, yeah. All of that. And it's such an intriguing tweak to the format as to what's happening. that I so I put it this way for me I wasn't even I didn't end up even going oh this is you know is it or isn't it Ben it was fully up there alongside the first one for me and it's also got really interesting new cast members Toby Jones I mean Toby Jones playing a character who's weirdly like a strange distorted mirror image of the character he plays in Mobland which I thought was quite fun oh yeah well also you're not quite sure about him he's ambiguous as well deliberately so I loved him Toby Jones bringing his full on Toby Jones-ness to the show is, you know, what can you want?

1:23:39So, you know, I think stuff like that made me enjoy it just as much as the first. It's a really fun show, I should say. It's really well made, it's really well constructed. I really enjoyed it. I think the first season is a difficult bar to clear for me. Oh, totally, yeah. And I think, really, that's my only criticism is that, and also, I don't know how you could have done, quite frankly, so. Yeah, fair enough, yeah. But yeah, had loads of fun, watched every episode of it. Great stuff. Hi Jack, Apple TV Plus then, airing or beginning when, Boydie? 14th of January, so that is next Wednesday 14th of January 14th of January Wednesday this Wednesday this Wednesday Apple TV no longer called Apple TV Plus no just Apple TV next up we have Industry season 4 on BBC1 which you've already heard about but it does see some serious eruptions appear in the finance world as well as some new faces specifically Stranger Things Charlie Heaton who arrives to suitably turn things upside down as an investigative journalist as well as Kianan Shipka who plays an assistant at the Financial Institution, both of whom, I would argue, make quite the introduction together.

1:24:42Kay, this show came to market in 2020. You've seen interest rates rise year on year. But did you put much stock in season four? I did. However, I haven't watched the previous series. So it's like a lot of it was lost on me. I found it frustrating in a way. I had the same thing. I had the same thing. It's frustrating because it's so well written. You can tell the characters are well observed and developed, etc. But I just don't know these characters. So I was trying to work out, like, who's, you know, who's, to put it in a facile way, goody and baddy, etc. And also, because of the language they're using, the finance language that I didn't quite understand, I was lost a lot of the time.

1:25:21But I enjoyed it for the look and the feel of it. And as I said, it's clearly very well written. I was more going to defer to Boy's Judgment because I know, A, he's a massive fan of it. Plus, he's seen all the series. But then, you had a similar thing to what I had, but I find that, and because I don't watch industry as well, I find it quite difficult to watch sometimes. Also, it fails the bellend test spectacularly because everyone is a bellend. And stressful, right? And it is stressful. Yeah. But what's really interesting is you pick it up so quickly. Like, I felt like, I don't know who any of these characters are in relation to the other, but actually, it's not exactly self-contained, but you come to know them quite quickly.

1:25:57Yeah, I mean, that is... By the end of the first episode, I felt quite tapped into a lot of dynamics. dynamics and while there were clearly legacy characters who were coming back and their role had changed ever so slightly i was like okay i don't really understand the relevance of that yeah but like the core story of that first episode here i followed most of you know what i'm doing a total reverse variant because you are completely right you do i know i know as i was saying it no it's more that like you're completely right you can understand what's going on in terms of like the gist of it and there's the story itself is that i felt like i wasn't getting the full depth of it because I didn't you know like so there's this I can't even recall her name but the main woman for example you know there's obviously stuff that's going on with her that is deeper Harper yes Harper no it's Harper who I really I like her as a character I was like you know I imagine she was there from the beginning I want to know what her journey was to get to where she is well you just have to go back and watch as previously I'm going to what I'm just saying is that I don't think I fully appreciate in the same way that you would have done but I can tell it's a really you know I have questions about her management technique is what I'm going to say on that first episode.

1:27:01I would say she's an HR nightmare. Yeah. But yeah, I thought she was a fascinating character. Yeah, she's very interesting. And there's, I can't remember the character names, but the two best friends running their own little fund there, their dynamic, fascinating. Reminded me of you two. No. Concerning on so many levels. I'm joking. But yeah, it really got me because the characters are so slippery and the whole business they're in is just a little bit like that. And also very topical because they talk about instability, they talk about the rise of... Oh, it's so topical. Right, and they're talking about essentially OnlyFans and whatnot and financial models.

1:27:37What's the different name? They've got a different name for OnlyFans. Siren, that's it. But they reference OnlyFans, but Siren is obviously a similar platform. But not only that, and by the way, to give you another reference, I must stop talking about the rest of the entertainment. Can you stop promoting on the podcast for me? I'm being honest. Can I just tell you one very brief thing, sorry to interrupt. in the post bag we had one of our listeners you got Bob Bob in fact got in touch and said thanks to Boyd raving on so much about the rest of his entertainment I've started listening see what you've done see what you've done Bob in America we've got your man who wrote in to say he's bought 23 people subscriptions meanwhile Boyd's getting everyone to subscribe to the rest of his entertainment I mean what is happening anyway Marina Hyde explained about about porn and how people pay for those services she talks about the key element in the whole system is the payment company, the company that does the payment.

1:28:29So you've got the consumer, if you like, the performer, you've got the credit card company, but then the shady, mysterious element to the whole thing is the company that processes the payments. And this series of industries is totally built on the company that processes the payments. And it doesn't sound very sexy, but Tender, which is the name of the app that they're going to use, is absolutely key. And payment processing is a massive thing. the moment right now and industry taps into that and not only that there's a whole thing about the labor government that's just been elected so they somehow seem to have kind of like known what was going to happen by the way to the labor government as now that it's in power and there's a character there's characters an mp who they need to influence to get the the approval for their becoming a bank or whatever and all of that stuff is absolutely like the guy who's a peer yeah yeah it's incredible how topical it is.

1:29:22But what's so clever about it, I think, is that they incorporate these really fresh from the headlines things that are happening right now in the world, but not in a way that in, if you didn't watch it right now or you went back to watch the previous series or whatever, that it would seem in any way dated. They do in a way that it's kind of like, because the themes and ideas and what it's exploring about, about the world of finance and the world of capitalism, basically, basically the whole thing is about the kind of possible decline of capitalism a late period capitalism and the evil the moral decline yeah within the whole capitalist system means that it's almost like an incidental brilliant element of it that is so topical for me because it's exploring so many other things I thought it's so interesting how the depiction of sex in this show is astonishing it is like don't watch it on the northern line people don't do a James some of it is even more extraordinary than heated rivalry heated rivalry and even more extraordinary than previous.

1:30:22I mean, the whole show, right from the beginning, one of the brilliant things about industry is that it was showing you that particularly the young, new, fresh intake of people working in a huge investment bank, their pleasure time is as extraordinary as their professional time. They need to release that stress somehow, boys. Right, exactly. And also, they're working at such a high-powered, intense level that normal, in quotes, sexual life isn't for them. so one of the themes of the show has always been these people the higher you get almost and the more powerful you get the more exotic shall we say your sexual peccadillos are and there are moments and I talked to I asked them about this without spoiling anything I asked them about the sex element of the whole show in the interview there are moments in this series that are absolutely jaw-dropping and I'm sorry there's one in episode two I think you'll know it when you see it with a male character and a female character and something pops up you know that and then in episode I think it's four three or four there's a there's a there's a sex scene I won't say more about it than that and then there's a cut there's an edit a transition from what happens in that sex scene to normal life non-sexy that is hilarious it's so rude and daring but it's absolutely hilarious it sums up the whole tone of the show for me which is that it looks into these things and it has something quite interesting loads of really interesting things to say about capitalism and greed and people in this whole world.

1:31:49But at the same time, it's got a hilariously shocking but totally justifiable use of sex. And it's key to the whole show's tone. And you know when you see that. The transition. Look out for the transition. I think it's in episode three. I need to go back to series one. Because also I think it will help me understanding the lingo. Yeah. And by the way, you know, Conrad Kaye and Mickey Downey created the whole thing. They direct a lot of the episodes in this series, you know. and they do an incredible job. Episode four has a set-piece scene, which is like the Safdie brothers' film. You know, what was the one before?

1:32:28Uncut Gems. Uncut Gems is the film that they made together, which has this almost unbearable-to-watch-hectic, breathless story. They do a similar thing in episode four, and it's breathtaking, the direction and the acting, and just as a set-piece thing, slice of TV, which is incredibly tense and it has that level of intensity to it it's absolutely brilliant so I think this is I love the show I've loved the show from the start but it just gets better and better and better every year I think this really and now in this fourth series I think it's partly because it's a big HBO hit now and now the succession is no longer with us I think this is one of HBO's biggest you know brands if you like to use that word so it's not only it's on BBC One you know Monday night at 10.40 but it's a big big thing for HBO Yeah, and you can feel the level of ambition in it rise year upon year upon year.

1:33:18And it's now peak. It's absolutely up there as peak TV, I think. Industry then, which, as you say, lands on BBC One when, Boyd? Monday, 10.40pm. Monday, 10.40pm. Finally this week, we have the main event. Because it's Starfleet Academy on Paramount+. This is a guy of ILO's series about the eponymous Trek University. And Star Trek's first proper YA show as well. and this takes place in the future Star Trek timeline after the conclusion of Star Trek Discovery. So that's the 32nd century, Cain, in case you were wondering. And this sees a group of disparate students making their way through this Federation sort of school for future officers and then a new class in over a century after this big galactic disaster called The Burn, which you will hear referred to, but honestly, you don't need to worry about.

1:34:04Oh, and it happens to have Holly Hunter in it as the headmistress and Paul Giamatti as a half-Clingon vagabond. Boydie as our very own half-Clingon vagabond please tell us is this a worthwhile enterprise or a load of triple nice reference to OG Star Trek there at the end thought you'd like it the news that Martin Clunes is going to play Hugh Edwards is second only to for me the fact that I remember reading when this casting was announced probably we talked about it on this we mentioned on the press announced James would have mentioned it but it hadn't really hit home This show, this YA Star Trek spin-off, like the gazillionth in a whole history of Star Trek spin-offs, stars Holly fucking Hunter.

1:34:48It does. And not only that, it stars... Paul Giamatti. Paul Giamatti. Paul fucking Giamatti. Two of the best actors in the world today. And Holly Hunter star of, you know what I'm going to say, one of my all-time favorite worlds, broadcast news. The legendary broadcast news. and her performance in that is one of the all-time great performances it's like it's elevated the whole thing to a whole different level so you know whilst it's a fairly bog standard in some ways Trekkie YA twist on the whole idea and there's a captain and a boat board a ship like the Enterprise and there are loads of students who are doing wacky things some of which some of them are kind of trying to be funny and not that funny but it's just you've just got Holly Hunter in the middle of the whole thing You know who else is in this, don't you?

1:35:38Who? Do you know who does the voice of the commuter? Yes. Brit Marling. Brit Marling. And do you know who's the voice of the university dean announcements? It's Stephen Colbert. I mean, incredible scenes. Yeah, absolutely extraordinary. He's so happy. Look at him. I know. And you know who else is in it, funnily enough? It's Gina Yashiri. Do you know Gina Yashiri? Gina Yashiri is a British comedian. And she... Oh, she's the Jem Hadar training officer, isn't she? Yeah. She's really funny. She takes no shit. She's really funny. Oh, I like her. Yeah. She's really funny. She's really funny. Oh, she was one of my favourites.

1:36:06Yeah, she has an incredible story because she's a black British comedian who started out, you know, doing stuff on like BBC Three. I think I might have even been on TV with her once. Of course you have. Of course you have. Did you start her career? Effectively, yeah. Yeah, I invented her. She was on Would I Lie to You recently and she moved to LA because she wasn't getting the opportunities here as a creator and actor and comedian. And so she moved to LA And she's a huge phenomenon in America. She's had massive... She created a sitcom. And she's... I think she's still out there doing stuff and doing this.

1:36:40She's got the role in this big role and a very funny role in this show. Bottom line, I found it very entertaining, to be honest with you. I thought the... As well as having Holly Hunter and these people in it, which is fantastic, I quite like the idea of this young boy who'd been abandoned due to her verdict on his mum. Right. But also, that's... I thought that was... I thought two things about that scene. So this is a prologue series where the kind of, if you will, if there is a lead character, this is Sandro Roster's character. He plays Caleb Meir. And he is separated from his mother, played by Tatiana Maslany.

1:37:13Yeah, another star. She's just in the first scene. They are kind of separated. And Holly Hunter kind of oversees that separation and then comes to regret it. I thought it's an interesting, a very pointed discussion on the separation of families, I thought. But also the way they're separated is the very contentious felony murder statue, which is that if someone is killed in the commission of a felony you are charged with murder and the fact that the idea that the Federation in the 32nd century would have felony murder a charge which many people believe shouldn't be around in the 21st century is quite extraordinary but again I thought that was a really interesting commentary yeah no absolutely but you're right this show is kind of wild actually so this is we should say they've been trying to make a Stoffelite Academy show for genuinely about 20 years but they couldn't think of a way of making it work and how do you make the Star Trek format work in a school and does it work at all?

1:38:06And their kind of solution here is to have it so that the Academy is the USS Athena so it's a ship but it can dock on Earth as Starfleet Academy but if it needs to it can go out into the field and it can fly off and do things. It's versatile. It is versatile. It is, if you'll pardon the pun, the best of both worlds. So essentially it gives you a space-faring drama but it also gives you the school set thing. So it lets them mix up the formula, which is actually very, very smart. And this was being developed, you know, quite seriously, and I think I was, I want to say, like 2018, like that round to 2020, by Gossip Girl, Stephanie Savage, and Josh Watts, who did the OC.

1:38:42So it had big YA credentials. Oh, wow. And then, you know, it went quiet for a little bit, and then it's come back, and now it's finally been realized. And part of me was just like, oh my god, is this ever going to come out? But also, part of me was a little bit wary, because it is a YA series. And, obviously, for me, Star Trek's no laughing matter, and I don't take it, you know, there's no trivialising that's why I don't like Noah Dex but I was wary of a YA Star Trek I literally just slammed my head on the desk you know don't mess with my Star Trek formula especially if you're going to because there are loads of references to Trek in this like tons of them from names on the board from all different series what not the fact that Robert Picardo is in this as the Doctor famously one of the main characters on Star Trek Voyager in the 90s so you know that's a lot of fun but what I think is so good about this show is it cleaves very faithfully to what I would call not so much Star Trek but it does do that but it really embraces the YA format and I don't think you get that so much from the first yes Kay 75 minute pilot episode oh okay yeah right we've got stuff to discuss by the time you get to episode 2 episode 2 is a very YA installment of television it's a little bit romantic it's a boy meets girl type thing but with a larger sort of theme and some learnings to be had and I had a better time actually with episode 2 than I did episode 1 because it clicked for me the YA-ness of it clicked for me then and I thought I was watching this I think this is and whether you approve of this or not okay I wouldn't say this feels like a gateway drug to get teenagers into Star Trek yeah because it really has all the kind of OCE type hormonal angst to it but it also brings in the Star Trek lore and universe weirdly the only thing about it that I don't love is the setting this 32nd century setting because one of the things about Discovery that I didn't love was that they jump into the far future in the later seasons.

1:40:25And it all becomes, it sounds so stupid to say, it's too futuristic for me. It's with the programmable matter and all the sort of floating in the cells and whatnot. I didn't love that. No, I didn't love it. I love, you know, the classic sort of Star Trek. The stuff that's super realistic. Well, yeah, exactly. Well, you know, 24th century Star Trek Next Generation style. You know, I prefer that. And so I didn't love it. But I get why they've done it. It's because the Star Trek canon, the timeline, is now such a minefield to deal with. they were like well if you go far into the future you can do whatever you want because it's the future and you have to worry about the films and the shows and the crossovers and the timeline so they've probably done it for their own sanity and I kind of understand that but part of me almost wishes they didn't but generally speaking while this isn't Star Trek for me it isn't like this is not what I want from Star Trek I actually think it's a pretty good YA show and I think they've done a pretty good job of realising their goal here Kay oh my god I love that soliloquy um um James?

1:41:21Yes. I enjoyed this. Wow! Yeah, I enjoyed it. This cannot be the case. Yeah, it is. This cannot be the case. Shall I tell you why? I mean, for some of the reasons, just, I mean, a few of the reasons you outlined. But because for me, there was something like I could, like, hook into, like, there's the groundedness of this. As Boyd said, the Caleb story, where he's been separated from his mother, he's on this quest, you know, enters this new world, and on a quest to be reunited with her, and all the challenges he faces, etc., etc. It was very easy to root for him and that story, wherever it was set.

1:41:53The fact that it was set in space, obviously, is an extra dimension. But I didn't hate it. I found it... You overlooked the fact that it was set in space. No, but actually, I thought, well, this depiction of it, I enjoyed. I thought it was easy to digest. It wasn't like, you know, seemed too nutty for me. Nutty. And it was... I really liked the fact that actually it was quite entertaining. It was entertaining, but also some of the characters quite amusing. Yeah. It's funny. It's funny. I liked the woman the comedian you just talked about yes the Jem Hadass she's like the head of students training but yeah and the guy who's the older guy oh that's Robert Picardo the hologram the doctor he's great he's really good he was very funny as well Robert Picardo is like the funniest slash best thing in Star Trek Voyager so this was much funnier than I was expecting and I just yeah I really enjoyed it now my the criticism I have it's sense based no no not even that like I said I enjoyed it for what it was and I like enjoyed the story it is that at 40 minutes I was I had a that was it you had enough yeah I think it didn't need to go on for another 30 minutes it's like insane like 40 was a good they do a lot in that first episode do you know what in classic network TV that would have been a two parter like that would have been a two part pilot because the pilots often are like you know it would have been first episode part one first episode part two I know I know what you mean I mean look I enjoyed it obviously but yeah I get what you're saying I get what you're saying as a non sci-fi gal I have to say at 40 minutes that was my limit I was like okay I've enjoyed Star Trek now and now it can But I guess in a streaming era it's almost like you don't need a part one and part two because episodes can be as long or as short as you want weirdly I guess all Star Trek pilots really are feature length but they split them into two parts but in the streaming era you don't really need to it's just stop it when you want start it when you want doesn't really matter So next time I'll just stop watching after 40 minutes I'll insert my own break They have a lot of ground to cover in that first episode because they're setting up this broader arc which is the search for his mother and also they have to introduce all these characters and it's because you know weirdly like in a normal teen show you broadly speaking know your cliques at school you know your plastics your geeks your whatever it is whereas here you've got like the pacifist Klingon you've got a weird alien oh yeah that nice Klingon dude was good right a nice Klingon oh I liked him you've got sweet guy sweet guy got all these various sort of like different different types and so you have to kind of there's even a holographic student like there's a lot going on there so yeah I had a good time with it good but we are out of time in this particular studio because we have overrun and people want to come in.

1:44:19So, that is it. Because we talk so much about Star Trek. That is it for Star Trek, Starfleet Academy, which airs on Paramount Plus. Boydie? Thursday, the 15th of January, 2026. 2026. Yes, Boydo. Indeed. Watch it there. Right, that is it for us on this week's show, except we have to tell you what our pick of the week is and what else is out. Very quickly, Boydie, what else is out? Very quickly, Tell Me Lies, a new season on Disney Plus on Tuesday.

1:44:46I'll do anything else actually I'll call the midwives back we don't need to call the midwives I think that's about it right that's it brilliant what's the pick of the week? hijack hijack industry Starfleet Academy right we don't have a pick of the week excellent we'll be back in your ears on Pilot Plus if you don't subscribe please do so and we're going to leave now before we get thrown out the studio but Idris Elba will be on next week's podcast and we'll be reviewing some TV shows and that'll be very exciting welcome to the first Pilot TV of 2026 and we'll be back without Kay next week because you're not doing next week's show.

1:45:14Oh yes, my first one off. So Steph will be in the hot seat. So, yeah, enjoy guys. You'll have a good old time with Steph and then I will be back in a few weeks. Be wall-to-wall sci-fi. Gosh. Pilot out.