House Of The Dragon Season 3 Spoiler Special. With showrunner Ryan Condal

41:15And then that really tragic end. I mean, we said goodbye to her. I remember saying goodbye to her. And it was the, her final shot was her lying on the spikes. So she had this prosthetic spike sticking out of her neck and I'm crying and she's crying and she's got a prosthetic spike sticking out of her neck and I'm trying to hug her and not get stabbed by the prosthetic. There was, there was like a tragic comedy and the, but I was just so sad to say goodbye to her. She's, I just, I just love having her around. We just, everybody, everybody does. and she was such a joy and I think she just she's one of the truly innocent players in this story which in many ways is why she kind of had to go right because that's part of the that's part of the theme that we're exploring here is that those are the kinds that do not survive you have to play the game of thrones to survive or to have a hope at survival but it's just it's just it's just going to be there's going to be a little less light in you know at leaves and studios and also I think within within uh within house of the dragon for having lost fia yeah absolutely um i have to wrap it up but can you tell us you know are you sort of on schedule for for next time you've you've broken the story do you do you start again soon i i'm sorry i hate to bring this up but don't remind me uh no i'm actually i'm actually i'm i try it's it's a it's a season of healthy attitudes helen i'm uh uh i you know this show has been great fun but it's also been you know crushing weight and responsibility at the same time but i'm actually really looking forward to doing the last run because kind of now everything that we do we do it for the last time and for the first time i'm doing i'm making a season without having another season in front of me to make so i can really enjoy just doing this one thing without having to have one eye on on on what's next and in the writing too we're not setting anything up it's all payoff the whole season is payoff um so yes we're all all on schedule and uh and prep starts in the fall um so we'll go we'll go back and uh and start revising the scripts and uh planning sets location scouts are already happening over the course of the summer to figure out where you know new places we're going and then you know before you know it hammers will be swinging and and uh 3.4 million screws will be being put together at Leaveston.

43:33But yeah, we'll start again filming early 2027, and I'm really looking forward to The Last Dance, as we're calling it. Ooh. The Last Dance of Dragons. I hope it's at least 3.5 million screws this time, because it's got to be even bigger, right, for the finale? Best of luck with it. There will certainly be more dragons, I can guarantee you that. Yeah. Love me a dragon. Love me a dragon. All right, well, thank you so much for chatting to us, and congratulations to season three. Can't wait for season four. Thank you, Helen. Okay, that was Ryan Condal. I am James of House Dyer. The words of my house, I think you'll find, emblazoned upon my coat of arms, and I'm joined by none other than the Dread Prince himself, Black Boyd of House Hilton, Lord of the Reach, and Defender of Alley Cats.

44:22How are you, Boydy? Very good. I'm slightly dreading this because you should know that I don't go on with the names of characters. Right, okay. In George R. R. Martin's world. So I know who they all are, but they're all the same. Rhaenyra, Renaissance. Rhaenyra, Rayna, Rhaenys, Agon, Rhaegon. Eamon, Eagon. It's like, oh, I can't. But I know who they are. Oh, it's Matt Smith. For me, it's Matt Smith. It's Emma Darcy. If in doubt, give me the actor's name. I will. Yeah, yeah. But what did you think of this season? So we should say, if you want, And I know, Boydie, how much you love it when I roll out a Rotten Tomatoes rating.

44:57I know it's your favourite thing on this podcast. Because basically, whatever Rotten Tomatoes says is true. Of course, yeah, absolutely true. I mean, let's be honest, I'm a metacritic man, but nevertheless. Season three of House of Dragon on Rotten Tomatoes had a 91 % score, which is making it the highest rated season of the show so far, which is a big step up from season two, which was 84%. And season one, which was 90%. So does that scan with your experience of it? I enjoyed the series, yeah. It doesn't surprise me that much because I think there's more spectacle in the series, especially because it started off with a big fight, battle.

45:32The Battle of the Gullet. Thank you. And ends with an even bigger battle, really. Yes, the Battle of Tumbleton. Exactly. So for kind of fans of the show who like its spectacle and its epic quality and CGI dragons, they're going to lap it up. is the most House of the Dragon House of the Dragon series so far, I think, in all those ways. But what strikes me about this series is it very much rests on, like, characters brought in all of a sudden from... I guess, because I don't read the books, I don't know, but I'm assuming, for example, that Ormond, who is one of the big drivers of the story this season, played absolutely brilliantly by James Norton, who is astonishing.

46:10And he's always brilliant. I think this underlines how utterly above most other actors of his generation is. I think he's fantastic. But is he, like, a major character in the books? Tommy Lee Royce. He is a character in the books. He has his, certainly his motivations, I think, have been adjusted and he has more to do in the show than he does in the books. Bear in mind, the book isn't actually a novel. It's like a history book. So it's quite bare bones, but it sketches out events. This series has moved away from the book in a number of different ways. Right. But yes, he's got more to do here. Hence, I was going to say, J.R.R.

46:41I've heard that, a lot of people call him J.R.R. Tolkien slash... G.R.R.M. Yeah, George R.R. Martin. Yeah, he's, He's not happy with... Yeah, I think he's definitely, he has voiced his criticisms of the show and I think his main issue is he doesn't like the deviations. But as Ryan Condor has said, as he said in the interview with Helen, you know, his job isn't to be faithful to the history. His job is to make a great TV show. Well, actually, I think apart from the fact that Ormond suddenly arrived and seemed to be an incredibly important person, even though I'd never heard of him before, but that's me because I haven't read the books.

47:11I thought his stuff, his relationship with the young, the boy, what's his name? Darren, the young Prince Darren. Darren. Darren Darren Darren Darren Darren Yes young prince Darren That weird weird relationship Which led to Like there's moments where He's like you know Looks staring into this guy This boy's eyes I'm like what's going on here There's definitely a weird creepy undercurrent There is But I don't get Because unless it's Unless there's a bit of lampshading going on Because he makes reference to the fact That Freddie Fox's character Gwaine is gay Yes And like And it's all a bit All backs to the wall type thing So I don't think he has kind of Sexual No feelings towards the young prince.

47:49But the way it's shot and directed... Oh, it's creepy as fuck. It's definitely creepy. There's something weird going on. But you're right. When poor Gwaine arrives and he says, the back's against the wall line is just awful. And yeah, sums up the horrendous nature of... He's dreadful. He is absolutely dreadful. With his smelling salts. The whole thing, him not being able to deal with smells and odors is insane and the food and the... Oh my God. Yeah, he is a brilliant character. He is. Insanely well acted. but what was I saying yeah so even though so it is I agree with the Metacritic slash Rotten Tomatoes people yeah it probably is the best season so far just in terms of entertainment value and multiple storylines woven together all the way through like you know it's coming between about six different things going on at various times and sometimes I felt there's a big gap some characters just disappear for a while almost like an entire episode you just don't catch up with them and you're like what happened to them but in general yeah I enjoyed it a lot It's like Otto Hightower, who was missing for a whole season, then turns back and just gets his head cut off.

48:52You're like, oh, all right, see you, Otto. He's done. Exactly, completely. So there's the character played by Tom Cullen, for example. Tom Cullen is a widely renowned, excellent actor who does lead roles in things like The Gold. And in this, he's hanging around in the background and then gets killed after about three or four episodes. Well, you know. So there's stuff like that going on, yeah. I mean, that's by the by. What were we up to? What were we saying? I forgot. We did lots of different characters. and there's a lot going on. There's a lot going on, yes. But I think overall, I'd say sometimes certain characters were forgotten about seemingly and others suddenly miraculous.

49:25There's a lot of miraculous rising from the dead in this, isn't there, as well? There's a little bit of that. A little bit. Sunfire the dragon being the most notable one. Whose timing, by the way, is excellent. Impeccable. Impeccable timing. So I think there are more moments of, really, of credulity stretching in this series than I remember from previous ones. like that dragon arriving just in time. Well, that, I think, can be explained to an extent. And I think Helen touches on this a little bit in the interview, though, not in this context. I haven't heard the interview. No, you haven't. Well, she doesn't talk about Sunfire in that scene in this regard, but there's a discussion of, like, they're not horses, the dragons.

50:00And the bond between the Targaryen rider or dragon seed and the dragon, it seems to be more than just, you know, it's not owner and pet. There seems to be a kind of almost like an emotional psychic bond between them. So I get the impression that the dragons just know where they are. And where the rider's will and personality seeps into the dragon, it feels like it is a bit of a two-way street at times. And that's like, because of the way that Reyna cannot control Sheepstealer at all. And it's completely feral. And that scene where Sheepstealer faces off against the other dragons, and the dragons respond to their rider's emotional states, which I thought that was a very interesting scene.

50:37Yeah, no, that was an interesting scene, yeah. But yeah, you're right, I get it. but it still felt like the dragon's almost going, I'm going to arrive now. I'm going to wait here. I'll wait here. Wait for it. Not yet. Not yet. Right now. Exactly. That just made me laugh quite a lot. And there were loads of other moments where, there were quite a few moments where people arrive and are around and are doing stuff very coincidentally. There's a lot of, for me, there's a lot of coincidence going on. Oh, yeah. But, you know, that's fine. That's kind of poetic license. But, yeah, it's just as a TV achievement.

51:09You know, the money's there on screen. Oh my God. You can see the 20 million. It seems so expensive, doesn't it? Having come off the back of Reacher, like watching this, you're like, oh my God. Yeah. The money on screen. And, you know, this particular season starts with that because I think they'd had a lot of criticism in season two that it wasn't so much House of the Dragon as it was House of Damon moping around Harrenhal not really doing anything. And there was a lot of that. And that particular thread in season two was dull as fuck. Like, the season was great. I really like House of Dragons, but that was so boring.

51:40And so there was a lot of fan reaction saying, for the love of God, start season three with Battle of the Gullet. So Ryan Condon was like, you know what? Fuck it, we're going to start with Battle of the Gullet. And you and I talked about this, that we'd have liked to have seen a little bit of character investment before we went into that, because otherwise it is a little bit... I mean, it's a spectacular naval battle with dragons. There's a big death in it. There's a lot going on. But I felt, as you did, that we could have done with a little bit of emotional setup to set the character stakes before that began.

52:06even though I thought the actual battle was great and bookending this season with two battles is kind of cool as well they're talking about Matt Smith wandering around moping they kind of almost swapped it for Amon wandering around he's all moping around he's moping a lot of moping and with that I can't stand that woman yes Alice Rivers Alice Rivers first of all I still know why as to who the fuck she is this is interesting when everyone arrives when all the new different characters arrive to see him they're like who the fuck is this woman in the history book she is just a bastard. She's like a wet nurse with witchy powers.

52:39But in this, they've literally made her the undead revenant of Harren the Black's wife. So she was when Balerion the Black Dread burned Harrenhal down and killed Harren the Black and burned his entire line. And she talks about how his son barely clung to life and his what would have been his wife, obviously the son's mother, she sought ungodly forces in the forest like the green men or whatnot to try and save him and managed to curse herself to sort of haunt Harrenhal as this kind of like, you know, eternal revenant. And I was like, this is a wild plotline to just fucking introduce. And he seems enthralled to her from the beginning and is wanting to marry her.

53:19Although he does dream about fucking his mum. Which was, I was like, oh wow, this is a scene. Small mercies. That was like, oh yeah, you've really gone for it in this scene. But I thought that was another wild coincidence moment. The actual mother arrives just after he's had the fantasy that he's sleeping with her. Super awkward. That was another bit of storytelling. You're just like, really? We've got to do a bit more work there. I know the Targaryens are very, very incest-y, but there was a real ick to that. I was like, this is easy. That's why even though it was a fantasy sequence, but you believed it.

53:52Yeah, yeah. It totally happened. I believe it was happening. They're very incest-y. They really are very incest-y. And she somehow managed, that's another, she kind of disappeared for like vast swathes of the last two episodes. Well, because she's walking. So I think she spends a lot of time walking. All right. Because she's sent from King's Landing to Harrenhal, which is quite a way, and she's basically just trotting along. She's on foot. She's on foot. But managed to get there quite handily. She did, yeah. Without, you know, make-up still on. Yeah, direct route to the main roads. I think she was on a horseback on the way there, but it definitely seemed like she was on Shanks' Pony coming back.

54:22But yeah, like poor old Alison gets there, poisons her son, doesn't even manage to kill him, and now she's just playing with butterflies. Exactly. Now I have another issue, which is Ulf. Ulf the White. The whole Ulf storyline is insane. And I just think he, not Tom Cullen, the main horrible guy. Your man. Your man. Hang on, who are you referring to? You know, the new Ormond. Oh, Ormond, yeah, yeah. Sorry. So, Ormond getting Ulf to be the crux of his entire plan. That was flawed. And I just didn't buy it. I didn't buy that he would decide Ulf was a good person to carry out his plan. He knows he's a piss-haired twat.

55:03He does. And I know they're trying to make some grand comment about the normal average man thrown into the midst of this wild thing where he's got to ride a dragon, he's got to instigate World War III, basically. But I just didn't buy that he would do that. And then he'd spend so long riding around trying to find him. Yeah, and finds him having a shit. Yeah, just focus on the main task at hand. I thought that was ridiculous. His whole thing was, the point is, where they struggle is they don't have a dragon because Vhagar is off the board and they don't know what to do and they can't fight Rhaenyra's dragon.

55:35So Ulf, they identified as someone who could be turned because Daemon is such a twat and abused him and he's got grievances, he's got a real chip on his shoulder and they successfully get him to change sides. But of course, as you say, he's a raging piss head. And then the mistake that Ormond makes is Ormond shows Ulf the contempt that he had previously hidden for him. And so when Ulf goes up there, He burns Rhaenyra's troops, and then he turns and goes, fuck you, and he burns Ormons as well. Yes, exactly. So he has quite literally burned every bridge at this point. He has. But also, he is a comedic character.

56:09He is, yeah. We've known him for, he's been in the show on and off. He's been in for a while, yeah. For a while. And he is the comedy Light Relief. He's like the doofus, you know, from, like, he's practically David Brent, you know. In fact, he was in a show called That Actor. A Life on the Dragon. That actor's very much been in, you know, he's kind of one step away David Brent. So he's there for comic effect and then suddenly he's at the crux of the whole thing's resting on him. Yeah. This whole massive epic war. It is flawed. It is definitely flawed. I mean, on one level it's quite funny because, and I like the idea of the, I like the normal everyday characters.

56:42There's Hugh and Bew's character as well. Yeah, that's right. Hugh the Hammer. It's the idea that basically they extend the dragons out to the working classes. Yeah, exactly. The people on the ground. The people on the ground can now ride dragons. In fact, his wife literally says you'd be better off on the ground, doesn't she? Yes. With the people on the ground. so I got all of that I just thought the whole of the key to the whole thing being resting enough was misguided both literally within the story and as and as a fictional TV drama yeah I mean I think there's a lot more to come in that because Ulf is still on the board like he's just flying off I don't know where he's going to go it's quite hard to play the dragon is this going to be a story of you know like the the norm plucked out of obscurity and then ends up running the world or something no I don't think it quite goes in that direction but I'd say there's been a lot because bear in mind Hugh has disobeyed orders.

57:29He didn't set fire to their troops but he did kind of betray Rhaenyra because he went to Tumbleton to find his wife who was dead and I was trying to work out did she die by dragon fire or was she killed by it looked like she was killed by Rhaenyra's troops because they were kind of pillaging the town and so I got the impression she was actually killed by the soldiers which is actually slightly more upsetting than having burned to be honest. Oh completely. I thought that as well. I quite liked the battle because I liked all the stuff with Tommy Flanagan isn't it? who plays Roderick Dustin, Roddy the Ruin.

57:59Which one's he? He's the Stark. He's like, you know, the beardy axe man. Oh, yeah, he's hilarious. He's brilliant. The one who like routers the troops. And he just wants to die. He just wants to die in glorious battle. Oh, he's fantastic. Yeah. And I love that he gets in that massive fight with Ormond, gets his arm hacked off and still managed to shank him in the arse for the back of... You love a bit of shanking in the arse. I do, yes. Yeah, let's face it. Oh, yeah, no, he is hilarious. But that's another thing. I've got, these are all criticisms, not criticisms, these are all kind of more questions for the credulity of the show for me.

58:27I'm working it through myself rather than overarching systems because by and large I thought it was great. But there's things like Damon. All Damon needs to do with the troops is basically shout at them for about a couple of minutes in some insane way. And they're all like, oh yeah, we're all going to follow Damon again. And in fact, then it becomes all the characters are like that. So like the masses, this is a show that's partly, I feel like it's supposed to be about, you know, how things affect the masses, without the insanity of the ruling classes. But the masses just will go along with the way of the shit.

58:56We are all individuals. Just make a speech. Exactly. It's life of Brian. Just make a speech and they'll follow you, apparently. The Queen does it. She does a rousing speech. And so they're all like, oh yeah, we were starving five minutes ago, but now we love her because she's made a fucking speech. It's like all you need to do is shout a lot and you will win them over. Until the end. Because when she stands on the front of the Great Sept and gives her, you know, I am the Prince that was promised. And everyone's kind of just shuffling uncomfortably going, she's a mentalist. Yeah, but they didn't shout back.

59:27They didn't like... No, because they didn't want to die. Okay, yeah. I don't know. Because this season is essentially, it's a pivot point, isn't it? Because until this point, the most sympathetic character, the most heroic character is Rhaenyra. And this is the point where we're like, oh no. And she's turned full tyrant. And I really like the way they did that. Now, there are parallels here to Daenerys Targaryen. Oh, absolutely. But it's done much better here. And the reason it's done is because they're able to take their time. They spend a season doing this. They sow the seed for it when Jace is killed.

59:59Because it's grief that is the trigger for this. Like, she doesn't know what to do with the grief. And she finds the grief completely overwhelming. And she starts almost to hallucinate and get psychosis. And that third episode, brilliant episode, where it's all from her point of view. It's called Rhaenyra Triumphant. Yeah. And so the whole thing is basically she's like, I've won. And then she finds out that ruling sucks. Oh, that, no, you're right. I was going to mention that. Yeah, that episode is brilliant. So good. because it's it's careful what you wish for times a thousand times a thousand and I love the fact that every single thing that happens is disastrous for her everything from like getting a period at the wrong time to just they've got no goal like everything goes wrong yeah and you kind of you do feel sorry for her and yet at the same time she's a complete obviously self-absorbed lunatic not lunatic that's the wrong word but no but I know what you mean but it's interesting because like Daenerys it's very much like the Targaryen blood the kind of incestiness of it she's just It's, oh, actually, she's nuts.

1:00:52Rhaenyra's not nuts, and this is why this is so interesting. Her turn to villainy here is gradual. It's step by step, and it's weirdly, scarily relatable, because you can see how it happens. Oh, yeah, you definitely relate. Yeah, I definitely relate. But she thinks, she doesn't see herself as a villain. She thinks she is doing the right thing, because she's just trying to govern the city, and she doesn't have the resources, and no one will do what she says, and everyone's betraying her. and in the end she kind of she chooses between the Jaehaerys way and the Damon way and she chooses Damon absolutely and I think I was going to say Damon's role in her decline into psychopathy is that's really believable I thought that was psychologically that made sense especially because they are sleeping together and he's a gaslighting mentalist as well he is an absolute maniac and what I like about I think Matt Smith is fantastic he's so good he's so good And I think he loves having bumped into him at the Champions League final.

1:01:49Of course you did. Earlier this year in Budapest, we had a little chat about, and he's so, it's such a delight for him to be in the show. He loves the role, he loves the show, etc. Well, he's fantastic. And you can tell, because he is absolutely brilliant. And every time you think he might be okay, he might be doing something for the right reasons, or he might have some kind of moral outlook, he completely destroys it. And he is horrendously cruel. He loves the cruelty. And kind of, I think, bathes in the joy of it all. Oh, he burned them all down in a heartbeat. Absolutely, yeah. Whereas she is, as you say, she's declined into almost, there's definitely political, one could labor the point, but there's definitely like political things being said in the show about, I think, populist leaders and leaders who everyone's terrified of challenging and who are dictatorial lunatics.

1:02:35No subtext there. I won't labor the point. But there definitely is subtext, I feel. Especially in certain scenes, there are moments. But yeah, her decline is one of the, they did make it completely believable. is partly their performance, which is just phenomenal. And there's a lot to sell in that character, in terms of making that character declines to such an extent where she commits evil. She's making the decision to commit evil acts, really. But you totally buy it. You totally believe it. But the thing is, Rhaenyra believes. And this is, again, a fascinating thread, because she's ruling partly because she thinks it's her birthright, partly because she believes she's her father's heir and she has a moral right to the throne.

1:03:12But more than that, she believes fundamentally in the divine right to rule because she believes she's fulfilling a prophecy that the gods need her to take the throne. She's constantly banging on about the gods. Right, and so that's how she's even going to kill the high septum because ultimately she believes she is divinely anointed to save the world from this great evil that is coming. Yeah, I loved one of my high... And I've said this before and I will say it again, sorry, to make this point, but you can give me as many huge big battle sequences as you want and CGI dragons and massive castles and all this but the scenes where it's just the small table where those two doofuses the new ones who are like really annoying there's one brilliant scene it's in the penultimate episode I can't remember which one where he's banging on about his reputation or something and it stays on him and something's thrown at him isn't it by Matt Smith throws something at him whether it's an apple or some item and it's on him and then it cuts to Matt Smith going I'm not talking to Osu but I'm going to do these two fucking losers it's so funny It's really well done.

1:04:13The small council is very entertaining. The small council, what did I call it? The small table. Yeah, whatever. Those scenes are really funny. I could watch eight episodes just one scene easily. It's like the West Wing around the Iron Throne. Yeah, exactly. I think that would be fantastic. So, those scenes are brilliantly done. They're really funny, really well written. And you kind of believe these people would dare to be quite critical of their rulers and of Damon, et cetera, but then right when it comes down to it, they know which side they've read Sparta's on. Oh God, yeah. They don't want to end up on the wrong side of a sword and or a dragon.

1:04:48No. Yeah, I love all that stuff. I think it's great. I think when old Jace Giserys dies in the gullet, obviously that's a big inciting moment for this. And it kind of sets everything in motion. But that, I mean, it's quite a big thing to start the season on. Because if you actually think in terms of, like Ormond dies, but obviously we've only just met him, so that doesn't feel like, whereas actually Jace dying feels pretty seismic. because her other son got eaten by Vhagar. So she's not having the best time. No. But yeah, I think all of that made sense to me. The big, I think the Aegon journey, I really like...

1:05:23Him and Larys. Larys is brilliant. Again, Larys is really funny. Like deadpan funny without kind of exaggerating it. But the way he deals... With him of the foot fetish. Right. I forgot about the foot fetish. I forgot about his Tarantino-esque foot fetish. but their interrelationship and their travels they could have been grim and kind of miserable but there's something funny about them especially because Larris at one point goes do you know what you're just a dick you are just a dick it really does and in the end he comes they split up it's like a kind of big couple that's still gone horribly wrong but all of that the stuff and the fact that he was reduced to you know really the real ruler of the king reduced to literally cleaning shit up out of the latrine shit and piss and his job it basically seems to be to divide one into the other one lot of piss into one bucket and shit into the other that is an extraordinary come down for that character and that was clever I really like that kind of that kind of stuff when people at the highest level of running things are reduced to the worst to the lowest but you also get that moment when he having got his dragon back confronts his brother at Harrenhal and it's like you tried to kill me you twat which I thought was really funny and there's a lot of cunting in this Yes, there is.

1:06:39It's like, you cunt! And there's one speech, is it Damon or something, that makes a massive... And then finally he goes, you cunt! It just builds to that word. It's hilarious. Yeah, they do deploy it. They deploy it well, much like the dragons. I thought it was interesting, you know, in terms of... I always find it fascinating when they stage these large battles, how they lay out the strategy of it. Because the Siege of Tumbleton is fascinating because, obviously, they have dragons, but they don't want to burn the people. because technically Tumult's been full of their people. Yeah. But I thought Ormond lining the walls with the children.

1:07:13That was awful. It was awful. Awful genius. Yeah, genius. Because he stopped Damon from essentially burning but then Damon does it anyway. You know, at the end of it because... Of course he does. Damon doesn't give a fuck. Yeah, even about... Yeah, the poor... It tells him to get out of the way. Galloway, no, all right. Takaris. Yeah. Yeah, that was... I was... Yeah, that was... I mean, that... You know, partly the show has always been about Game of Thrones is always about the amorality of... But look, you see Do you see the little people pissing himself on the battlements? Oh God, it's awful.

1:07:38Because they're so scared. That's panning across. I actually felt, if I'd have been interviewing, what's his name? The showrunner? Oh, Ryan Condal. If I'd have been interviewing Ryan Condal, I don't know if this was asked about him, but I'm almost certain that JHBI executives must be like, really? Do we need to do this? You're really pushing it. But, you know, artistically creative, it makes sense. Remember there's the little boy on the battlements, like hits, what's his face? Roddy, is it right? and then he turns around and splits his head open with an axe. Yeah, absolutely. It's like, oh, fucking harsh.

1:08:10There's a lot of child violence going on. Yeah, it's, you know, it's great, but you're like, oh, that's horrible. Yeah, it is really bold. I was thinking, yeah, I really want to know what HBO executives said when they saw that. When they saw that sequence. Should we be doing that? What else have we not talked about? We haven't talked about Helena. No, I was going to say we haven't talked about Corliss and all that. I find that storyline a little bit dull. Why? Corliss? Because Corliss has been in a strop all season to legitimize his sons. Exactly. And she won't legitimize them either, but then he's completely hypocritical.

1:08:43He is, because he didn't for ages. But he feels betrayed by Rhaenyra, so he strops off with his men, and then gets kidnapped, and then they cut his finger off. Yes, yes. I just wasn't gripped particularly by that storyline. No, I think Corlys, for me, Corlys is one of the more morally steadfast characters. Not 100%. No. Him and Alicent, weirdly, I think, are probably the two... And both of them are heavily flawed. Alicent, of course, having just tried to kill her son, but, you know, fair enough. Yeah, right. Because Alicent, all the way through, has thought she was doing the right thing. Like, even when she took the throne for Aegon, she thought she was, you know, honouring her husband's wishes because she misunderstood what he said to her.

1:09:26And her and Rhaenyra, obviously, being incredibly close when they were young, I think that's a thread that you almost forget that they're really close when this whole show begins. But yes, going back to Corlys, yeah, I know what you mean. I wasn't particularly... And her daughter, what's her name? Moping around the castle with the... putting the... sewing the... Oh, that's Helena. Yeah, Helena. That's Helena, who has, you know, prophetic dreams and is a little bit fragile. A little bit? And ultimately, yeah, and throws herself out the window. I thought that was also grim as well. Yeah, that was quite grim.

1:09:58All of her scenes are grim. It felt kind of inevitable and tragic because Alison obviously had agreed to kill Eamon. so that Helena could live and be free, and now she's lost Helena as well. Yeah, no, the force-feeding of her in all the days. Yeah, that was grim. That was really grim. I could have done without that. Yeah, didn't like that. No. And obviously she weeds that tapestry, which shows her own death, but also shows Rhaenyra on that throne with blood and flames around her and like a dragon, which kind of implies that it's all going to go to shit. Oh, completely. But I thought that the deployment of the tapestry, that she's been keeping it close to her chest all the way through, literally won't let it out of her sight.

1:10:35And every time someone else pushes it away, she's like, no, no, no. And then to see what she'd been creating that was clever. And it felt like, you know, she's telling the story, isn't she, to some extent, on the tapestry. Yeah, yeah, very much so. As in Bayeux, I believe. Yeah, well also, that's the title sequence, isn't it, this season? You see the tapestry playing out. You see it being embroidered and you see, and every episode is different because it basically shows you what has happened up to this point in the tapestry. Sure, yeah. which I think is great. It's a great title sequence now. And also the music, I think, has tweaked ever so slightly as well.

1:11:05Yeah, no, the music's fantastic. Fair play to Ramin Djawadi as well because the score all the way through this has been really on point. Yeah. Really, really good. Yeah, the music accompanying the battle is brilliant, I thought. Brilliantly done. Yeah, it's great stuff. What else was I going to say? I think, I mean, just kind of going back to the Rhaenyra-Daenerys parallel thing. And I've seen some criticism, but people are saying, really, are we doing this again? Like, it's like Mad Todgerian woman on the throne. It's interesting that it's women, isn't it? I think that's interesting because the men tend to be either completely bonkers or completely psychopathic, completely cruel like Damon.

1:11:39And they're very like, they're almost like, I mean, in a way it's a good thing because you could say that these female leaders are more multi-dimensional than the men who tend to be fairly basic one way or another. But it's definitely a thing, isn't it? It feels like with the, and even other female characters as well. Like they're kind of much more complex, I feel. sometimes than the male one. It's interesting, isn't it? It's like the anti-Christopher Nolan, isn't it? There are really complex and interesting female characters. Exactly, yeah. And I think George R.R. Martin, from the sound of it, I've never read a word that he's ever written.

1:12:11Oh, so good. Because they do that in the play. Yes, the Mad King. The Mad King play. They're the focus. The real revelation are the female characters. Really? Yeah, absolutely. Because presumably this all leads up to Jamie Lannister killing the Mad King. Yes. Yeah, exactly. Stabs him in the back. Yeah, but again, the male characters do what you expect them to do. Yeah. And the link between those, these younger versions of them to the ones we meet in the TV show are very clear. Whereas there's female characters who we never met before who kind of completely steal the show and have that complexity about them.

1:12:41So it definitely seems to be a George R.R. Martin, one of his better. Yeah, honestly, like even in the books, I think with the exception maybe of Tyrion, who's a fucking brilliant character. I think some of the best characters are his female characters. They really are. The question, of course, is where is this all going now? There's one season left. Season four will be the last one, which I'm not sure is a bad thing oh no it's a good thing yeah I feel like it's good that it has a definite end point I don't think it's going to end well for anyone I think anyone expecting a happy ending will be horribly disappointed no yeah um yeah how's it going to end I always think I always thought with Game of Thrones it would end with one of the normals kind of you know getting getting some high level yeah which is why I don't think I mean look I don't know because I should say I haven't read ahead in Fire and Blood because I don't want it spoiled I don't think Ulf is long for this world.

1:13:29I've got to be honest with you. Fair enough. I could be wrong, who knows. But where we leave this, Aegon is alive and burning the Riverlands with sunfire. So that's, you know, lovely. Presumably, Aemond is going to get back on Vhagar, who lest we forget is a very, very big dragon. Daemon, I don't know, is Daemon kind of in the doghouse? Because he's fucked up the whole Tumbleton thing horrendously. You know, Rhaenyra was pissed off with him to begin with, so that's not going to go well. Huda Hammer is currently pursuing Ulf, but also he's pissed off Rhaenyra too, so she's not trusting anyone. Corliss basically almost committed treason by trying to you know give Darren a if not also where's Darren did he fly off in his dragon I don't think we ever saw what happened to him so he's he's flown off somewhere as well because poor poor Freddie Fox died didn't he yeah which was a shame yeah oh Freddie's not around anymore but the little but the kid what's his name Darren Darren Darren Darren Darren Targaryen Darren Targaryen he's still alive how old is he supposed to be I couldn't work out I couldn't work out is he like it could be anything from like 40 yes I know 20?

1:14:28It's hard to say. He's such a baby face. I know. I'm assuming he's kind of a teenager at some point. I don't know exactly. But yeah, I feel he's of importance, isn't he? Because he will probably decide, actually, I do want to be king. Yeah, but also, but he's of less importance now. Because Aegon is still alive, Darren kind of is almost irrelevant at this point because he's no longer next in the line of succession, even on the green side. So actually, I don't know quite what he's going to do. He is of little importance. No. But it feels like all of the kind of green threats that Rhaenyra had kind of done away with now are all very much back, present, and correct at the end of this.

1:15:03Plus, Alice has given Eamon Dreamfire's dragon eggs. Oh yeah, what was that about? More dragons. Loads of eggs. Although, to be fair, they're eggs. It's going to take a while. They're going to be little babies for a while. So I don't know that they're an immediate threat unless we have a time jump. So, yeah. Yeah, okay. Can I just ask, as we point this up, there was some, because you are the VFX expert, you spot these things. I thought there were some moments. there's a scene where four of the dragons are all gathering around and in the background there's like one of the the castle the is it whatever the castle's called the Harren Hall was it or one of the other are they in front of Harren Hall or do you mean do you mean the bit when they have the confrontation with Sheepstealer which is in the penultimate episode maybe it's that one anyway I thought the CG and I was watching it on my big screen and partly you can't tell because if you watch HBO Max if you depending on your Wi-Fi sometimes it sometimes goes blocky sometimes it goes blocky but it was the background and the four dragons, I just, it didn't, it really, compositing issues, Boyd, it wasn't, well, that's my question, is it a compositing issue?

1:16:01I don't know, because I don't know the scene, I'd have to look at it, but I didn't, I must admit, I think the Game of Thrones effects are on point, like, they are great, of course, they are, and as I've always said with Game of Thrones and House of Dragons, like, what's great about this, it's not even the dragons, it's the castles, it's all the stuff in the background that you don't even know are visual effects shots, that stuff, It's completely seamless, completely believable, and you just accept it as real. And that's the real magic, less the fantastical stuff. Yeah, I think there was just one or two shots of with the castle in the background that did look dodgy to me, but you know.

1:16:31This definitely has the benefit of the fact that it is very, very clearly structured. It knows where it's been, it knows exactly where it's going, and it knows how it's getting there. And I think the example here of Rhaenyra's breaking bad moment compared to Daenerys' breaking bad moment on night and day, because even though Daenerys, when they knew was coming, it was still rushed whereas this has been very meticulously paced. Yeah, I mean I didn't have as many problems with it as we know. The bells! But this was yeah, this whole season is kind of felt partly about that and that transformation.

1:17:01And if they'd had a whole season to do it with Daenerys I think they would have done it exactly like this but they didn't have it so it wasn't 100 % therefore. It was slightly rushed yes, you're right. But even bringing the character like Ormond I thought really fresh and fresh. Yes, new face. And I'm annoyed in a way they've killed him off so early. You know, they could have he's such a kind of full throttle character with so many you know with all the different sides to him I think that's a mistake to kill him off yeah I feel like we need definitely need some sort of replacement for Ormond so we'll see what they come up with but yes okay super well season 3 then of House of the Dragon it's going to be a long old wait for the final season season 4 we'll have to wait and see when that lands it's every two years isn't it so it must be 2028 it'll be fine it'll be 2028 so assuming the world is still around there and we haven't all been burned up by dragons and or the sun yeah we shall look forward to see how it all ends.

1:17:47In the meantime, we've got Night of the Seven Kingdoms to keep us company. We hope you've enjoyed this spoiler chat for House of the Dragon. We will, now that Boydys' HBO Max is up and running, we're going to do some pit chat very, very soon. I can only apologise that it is very, very late. We will return with that very, very soon. But that is it from this House of the Dragon spoiler chat. Goodbye from Boydys. Goodbye. And goodbye from me, and we will see you on the next one. Pilot out.

1:18:16Yeah, yeah