Lanterns, Ludwig, and Sunny Nights, plus Animation Education

27:27He hasn't let them see them over like decades. And this is a big mystery. But is he their real? Is he their real grandpa? He's their real... I think he's... No, I think he's their... He's the adoptive grandfather. He's the father of the son. He's the adoptive grandfather, yeah. So there's this whole... So that's the set-up. So she goes off without telling her dad, lying to her dad about... She's got a brilliant gay boyfriend who hasn't yet... Oh yeah, I saw that bit. That is funny. Which is handled hilariously, by the way. And... Because he's... Because she says, I'm gonna... when he comes out to himself, then I'm going to break up with him.

27:55But until then, we'll just keep going with it. And she lies and tells her dad that she's going off with him to his trip to Thailand. He wants to go to Thailand without her. That's a brilliant scene. There's a brilliant scene where she's like, I'll come to Thailand with you. And he's like, will you? And they're like, he doesn't want her to, because he wants to live out his gay life in Thailand. Anyway, it's really smart. The script is brilliant. The acting, she is phenomenal. The main woman, who is Ella Rubin playing Annie Jacobson. And all of the kind of milieu if I can use that word she meets this the guy who kind of takes her on a private plane to the island from the mainland is immediately this hot young guy sensitive he's very off campus you will love him you'll fall in love with him after 10 seconds oh my god definitely going to watch this but then there's another rich family who are there who she has connections to and she goes to this big party but to cut a long story short it's really really good it's like you know it's kind of not as in a way off campus is quite a mainstream kind of thing but with all the raunch it's not as raunchy as that certainly not in the first couple of episodes that I've watched but it's still dealing with very much present day sexuality, gender issues and all of that, but the intrinsic story is really interesting as well, the mystery of why did the dad not want his kids to know about their kind of grandfather figure, so it's really good and then the final thing that I have to say I saw because I know this will make James extremely jealous, is I went to the production of Game of Thrones The Mad King at Stratford upon Avon at the weekend this is the stage drama didn't invite me I wasn't given a plus one no no I wasn't given a plus one I was reviewing it for Radio 4 so they couldn't afford to give me a plus one it's extraordinary so this is this four hour including a 20 minute interval but four hour play set kind of about 15 to 20 years before the events of Game of Thrones for the first season of Game of Thrones where is it in Knight of the Seven Kingdoms though post all that post all that post House of the Dragon yeah those are like hundreds of years ago aren't they 100 years ago prequels.

29:50This is a 10 to 15 year prequel. Okay. So it's kind of establishing what happened to, and why the characters we know. It's Aerys the Mad King, isn't it? Yeah. He's the Mad King. The Mad King is fantastic. It's just really beautifully done. It's kind of epic as it can be on stage. I was worried, how are they going to transfer the Game of Thrones epicness to a stage? But there's this cross, the stage is set like a cross. They've reconfigured the whole seating arrangement. it is the way they do puppeteering of the horses and the dragon a dragon it's brilliantly done it's just if you like Game of Thrones it is fucking incredible oh we should go yeah it would have been nice if Poirot brought us I did not get plus one let alone plus two but yeah and it's all sold out anyway maybe me and Steph will go and see it yeah we should go and see it it will it's only at Stratford-Bonavon even now it's only running for about another like eight weeks I think but it will definitely come to the West End it will go to Broadway they'll make a film of it it'll be a phenomenon oh amazing hooray hooray so that is what I've been watching which is actually a live play.

30:48Okay. Okay, right. That is it for what we have been watching. And now we're going to do something ever so slightly different. Now, those of you who listen to this podcast and have been for a long time will know that we have a certain blind spot when it comes to animation. And anyone who subscribes to Pilot TV +, and if you don't, why don't you? You will know that we have been taking steps to remedy this issue. So we've had this animation intervention thing going on where people have been sending us things that they want us to watch. But the thing is, we're just not qualified to judge because we are animation Luddites.

31:21We don't really know what we're talking about. We don't really know what we're doing. So I have called in a ringer, a ringer to solve this conundrum for us. So essentially, here in the very studio with us here is John McEwen White. Hello, John. How are you? Hi. Now, we should say you are a Pilot Plus subscriber. Yeah. Which is the reason you're here, of course, is what your subscription pays for. You get to come on the podcast. But crucially, you are also an award-winning writer and producer and crucially founder of an animation production company. Yeah, that is true. So you are a, quote-unquote, professional.

31:55Wow, you're like the best person in here. Yes. It's not difficult, but yeah. And also, could we just say props to John for coming back? Because John's last time in the studio was to do the spoiler special for Foundation Season 3, I want to say. and it was entirely derailed by the arrival of one Taylor Swift. And so the sports special... Only 700 times. So the sports special was mainly John sitting alone in the studio with Helen while I stalked Taylor Swift around the building. For an hour? For an hour. We can only apologise. An hour? That is so unprofessional. And I regret nothing. I came all the way from Scotland.

32:29He did. And he, for an hour, he came in every 10 minutes and was like, right, let's get started with the podcast. And he was like, you know what, I'm just going to go outside. I'm just going to go outside and I'm just going to wait. And he'd come back and be like, right, let's go. I can't believe that Helen was on board with this. Also, I returned to Scotland, right? Here's an interesting fact about Taylor Swift, by the way. My wife loves Taylor Swift. She has the same birthday as Taylor Swift on December 13th. I have the same birthday as Travis. What's his name? Kelsey. Kelsey, 5th of October.

32:57Is that not a bit weird? It is weird. That's why James has got you on the podcast. That is probably it. But yeah, I returned and my wife was like, why on earth didn't you go out and see Taylor Swift? Yeah, especially as he was out. And me and Helen were too cool. They were too cool. They bonded over foundation while I went and saw the house. So James was so desperate to find someone to talk about foundation that he kind of kidnapped you from your life. I mean, I offered my services. That is where you went wrong. Yeah. So you have history with the podcast, obviously. Yes. Obviously, not a positive experience, as we have just explained.

33:33Locked in a room with Helen O 'Hara is not the worst experience of the world. No, that is actually not. But it's Boyd's idea of heaven. I would just say, James, that I am building quite the dossier of monstrous behavior for you, okay? This is going in, all right? Again, unrepentant. And I have two children, and they were crying when I came home. Did you send them the video of Taylor Swift waving at me to make them feel better? Do you want to hear something else that's funny? Yes. My wife's best friend, right? Yeah. She's a fantastic doctor, and she sent my wife the video that you took. Excellent.

34:08Because it went viral. Yeah. Wow. And I got in trouble for it, but that's neither here nor there. Let's not mention that again. Anyway, we have derailed the podcast, as is our want, but John is here to educate us in the animated arts. Now, so we have fed a lot of your listener contributions of things we should watch to John, and John, with his expert eye, has looked through them. And so, John, how are you going to do this? Because, you know, we do have a problem here. I think we can all admit we have an issue with animation. I just really, really resent you constantly. You're like, you two, okay, like pulling me into your gang of animator haters.

34:45Okay, look, and I know I'm a TV snob, right? But when you say I'm into animation, I don't think Danger Mouse counts. Okay, does Thundercat count? Thundercats count? Thundercats? Thundercats. I love animation. I've never stopped loving animation since I was younger. You seem to be nodding here, John. So are you validating this type of animation? I'm validating Steph. Steph is always very polite about animation. And, right, I wrote, I'll get into what we're doing. I want to report on, or I want to respond to something that happened in the 400th episode. Oh, good. I wasn't here. This is Annie Katz.

35:19Which is like a legend. Like, that's a piece of history. That'll be recorded and I'd be on the moon and stuff like that. To quote, right, on the 400th episode, Boyd, you knew that this was coming and you now work with me technically so you'd think you'd be nicer about this At one point, this being about Ali Katz Kay says, I'm not really into animation Boyd says, who is? And what do I say? And I think you probably said something lovely like animation's great Steph went then told Shush I was saying that ironically to comment with an arched eyebrow on my history of not overdoing an animation fan.

36:03It was an illusion. Do you know what's even worse about that? It's because I listened back to the episode and you said, and I was the one who was saying, the animation's so beautiful, it makes me feel at home, I absolutely love it. And then later on you say, you were going, and as you say, Kay, the animation is beautiful. And I was like, wow. You are interchangeable, to be fair. Yeah, that's true. You are. Yeah, because Kay is not entirely an animation fan either. No. You're the one who flies the flag. I mean, I would say Kay's neutral. she is right she is positive I think she is I think if she saw some really good animation she'd be like like you know she would be able to enjoy it but she's not like me she's not going to watch you know American Dad or Family Guy she doesn't like that no no no but that's I think that's fair because I think like animation but as we said animation is not a genre it's a medium right this is a thing which is what you're about I'm taking the words out of your mouth go on John hit us with it well like yeah I guess so like animation isn't a genre a medium or whatever.

37:01It's just like animation is just another thing. Like there's so many ways you can explain what animation is. You could call it like another camera when you're making things. There's lots of documentaries that have animation in them as well. Like it's, I think it's easier to animate now with kind of, not necessarily the AI side of things, but with technology that is kind of much more advanced. I'd look at Flow, which is a film that won an Oscar. When they tried to call me out and they were like, you don't love animation. tell us the last thing you thought was amazing I was like Flo and they went oh okay yeah and Flo is and there's so much nice stuff I think you just kind of have to just you just have to get over it it's like saying yeah you two get over it yeah it's like saying I don't watch Scottish shows and there's to be fair I think we can all agree we don't watch pretty much any example you're about to say there could be applied to James yeah including Scottish shows generally well there's loads of things that are shot in Scotland like you know the Spider-Man movie was shot in Scotland by the way was it yeah the Odyssey was shot in Scotland yeah yeah yeah FYI Scotland the place to be just to confirm John is Scottish yeah oh sorry yeah I'm also Scottish this is actually my notes yeah yeah we're working together on the Edinburgh Edinburgh TV Festival event which is by the way two weeks today it is horrifyingly horrifyingly but we'll be fine are you going Boydie yes I am hosting I was going to say we were offered some interviews up there He's one of them with Boyd.

38:29Yes, actually, yes. Would you like to speak to you, Boyd Hilton of the PolyTV podcast? Yes. Animation interviews? Perhaps. Who knows? An animated interview might be the way to go. But anyway, so, yeah, Scottish. Scotland is good. It's okay if you don't know if something is Inverness. Oh, are you going to... It's not really, is it? Are these going to be exclusively Scottish animations? No, no, no, no. Do you want me to talk through my plan? Well, first of all, I would like us to individually sort of explain ourselves. So, Boidy, why are you an animation twat? Go on, explain. Animation twat, okay.

39:03Yes. I think I would describe it as, there's loads of great animation I love. So, Into the Spider-Verse, those films. Okay, film. Beautiful. Two of them. Okay. Two films. The Simpsons, at its height, you know, I was, of course, watched it fairly religiously. I grew up watching The Flintstones and you know Flintstones really it's animated oh my god so I'm not intrinsic what I'm saying is I'm not loads of great animated films yeah I think I'm not a big fan of you know the the should we say modern day rude you know the cheeky rude adult animation get that and I can speak about that Family Guy it's a show Ren and Stimpy you know that's definitely like 20 I am an old man.

39:50You know, I'm an aged. Very young boy. Thank you. So that stuff, so the kind of, there was The Simpsons, which I think, which is, you know, one of the greatest shows of all time. And then all the other things that came afterwards that I wasn't particularly into. But essentially it comes down to, I have to watch everything. I watch all new shows in most genres. Partly for this podcast, but partly for my day job, writing for Eats and Empire, etc. And I just, my honest explanation is, not explanation, their honest taste is for live action stuff. So I'll always gravitate, I just gravitate more to live action than I do animation in general.

40:28So it's an apologia for me, really, that I know that is inane and stupid of me. But I just, for some reason, you know, even The Simpsons, I was like, wouldn't this be better if it was actually live action? You know, it's insane. But it's my, so my honest response is, for some reason, I'm much more attracted towards live action than I am animation. And that, and I apologise for that but it is the case if you gave me 20 shows to review and 10 of them were animated and 10 of them were live action there's no way I'm going to go to the animated side of that divide it's like that really I was hoping you'd be a little bit more of a dickhead there so I could fight you but that's like very fair points and very fair reasons but still small minded on me I think what is happening right now that I'm seeing from within the industry is there is a massive change in animation and when you talk about adult animation so that's like rejects.

41:19When I mention, if I'm working on an adult animation project, and I mention that to my granny, she thinks I'm working on porn. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, to try and explain that to her. She thinks she'll work, your granny thinks she'll work on adult animated porn. If you say I'm working on an adult animation, then she'll be like, what? And then I'll have to be like, whoa, whoa. I won't let her think that. Okay, good. Okay, fine. And there is some adult animation that is borderline porn. Felix the Cat, if we go back, I think. The advert. No, this is going back decades. There was a period where they made kind of like very adult animation films.

41:54What is happening? Sorry. Yeah, you look at, Google it, have a look. I mean, that's getting a number. Ralph Bakshi, do you know Ralph Bakshi? Have you heard of Ralph Bakshi? Yeah. Ralph, this is my history of animation for you. So, Ralph Bakshi was a very famous animated film director back in the day. I'm talking like 70s, 80s, and he did this thing, and Kofi Skelter was very rude. cheap saucy and I think it was X-rated he also did the version of Lord of the Rings James you must know about this and I went to see that in the cinema with Leonard Nimoy singing the song to it or something like that I think so and it was awful and I think that might have scarred me in my history because it's a terrible terrible version of Lord of the Rings but what I say just quickly on that because I know you're saying something maybe just as nice which is very lovely but what I'd say is adult animation within the industry they're massively changing when they say adult animation really what they're actually aiming for is 16 to 24 males like that's actually what the demographic is even though they're saying yeah so they're really working hard to go beyond that because there's this massive wealth of people that could get into it but they need to move on from like i love rick and morty but my wife will never watch it because rick has a little bit of sick on his mouth and and rick and morty is a tie is a project that was made i believe at a time when we were a little bit more comfortable with the world or the world wasn't as scary so it could be nihilistically endlessly nihilistic and i think what we're seeing right now is there's a lot more shows that actually like mean stuff and matter and aren't just like classic animation and i think more creators are getting involved like richard link later did a um apollo a really interesting project on netflix called apollo 11 or apollo 13 massively worth a watch and that goes to show like that's a fantastic live action animation.

43:40Guillermo del Toro's Pinocchio. These are all movies. But what I'm saying is... We discuss movies. We love talking about movies. We love talking about movies. Yeah. The more creatives... I'm seeing a lot more creatives see animation as an opportunity to basically spread their canvas. And it's nice to see that. Right, Steph, we've established that you are just a fan of animation across the board. Well, no, I would just say the thing is, is that I don't like to exclude anything from... I just think, you know, I'm very much on just entertainment is entertainment whatever form it comes in so that's where I sit with anything like that and Ali Cats is a great example of that Is it?

44:18James, look we've spent two weeks apart and I just I want us to come back together and be the best friends that we are Of course, carry on So I just feel like It's an open minded person Well no, I just think if it's entertaining in whatever form it's entertaining and you can enjoy it Yeah If, you know if the script is good it'll be enjoyable it doesn't matter if it's a fucking animated cat or you know it doesn't I don't know that's how that's just but maybe that's a very simplistic no I would argue that's probably the way most people should approach entertainment where you shouldn't be alienated by the form you should appreciate it for what it is I wish I could be more like that I struggle with that a little bit because let's discount the Seth Macfarlane oeuvre because I think there's a as you say I think the kind of quote unquote adult animation thing there is a smugness to it and they're slightly irritating and I think that transcends the animated medium and they have a vibe that just doesn't work for me.

45:14One that was good, so I just remembered one that I did, Bojack Horseman was good. Yeah, and Bojack Horseman I had stopped watching because it was too sad. Yeah, it's really, yeah. And it's meant to be like a silly comedy. Yeah, that went quite dark. There's a beautiful episode of Bojack Horseman about his mum dealing with Alzheimer's. Right. And they use animation to squiggle out people's faces. That is a way of using animation to increase your storytelling abilities as opposed to just saying this is going to be animation. And also you can get into budget and it's much easier to shoot a space battle with animation than it is to actually shoot a space battle.

45:49There's not that many space battles that we know of. That we know of. But you didn't even like Bojo Horseman, did you? I didn't, no. No, no. Okay, so explain yourself. What's your problem? I think there are a number of aspects to it. I think part of it comes down to the way I kind of watch things, which is like I need to be immersed in it. I need to be completely consumed by it. Like I live it. Like I project into things. So it's pure escapism for me. I'm never kind of sitting on a sofa watching it. And if I am, then something's gone wrong because I should be in the story when I'm watching it.

46:18And I find the animated medium sometimes a barrier to that. In the same way, I find comedy that breaks its own rules also pulls me out of the story a little bit. And I think there are two reasons for it. I think sometimes it's just, I was going to say bad animation, but actually I think that's a slightly ignorant way of looking at it. I think it's simplistic. So you take Invincible, right? So it uses a very simplistic style of art, right? The animation itself is not the issue, it's the art style. And because it's very simplistic, and that's a stylistic choice, I find that hard to get into because I just see, you know...

46:51So this is an access issue for you? A little bit. But also, I don't like, and I've talked about this before, animation voices, where... We love an animation voice. Talk about X-Men 97, right? People don't talk like that. That's just not how people speak. Because it's these incredibly overblown, over-egged, animated voice that they put on. And again, it takes me out of the story because there's no verite to it. Like, it doesn't feel real to me. You know what you would love? Alleycaps. I was going to say, absolutely, yeah. Because they are very naturalistic conversations. Yeah, I'm hoping he's watched.

47:23I asked him to watch one, I'm hoping he has. I really want Ricky Gervais to be my friend. Okay, fair enough. No, I watch it. It's fine. It's good. It's like, it is like a podcast with his friends that he animated. Yes, which is how he describes it. I think maybe, I feel like people are being a bit too mean about it. Right, so do I. I think like there's probably things out there that are much worse than that. Oh, gotcha. And I think as well, what I get annoyed is that people are like, he just decided to do animation. He doesn't know anything about animation. he's actually has done animation more than most people have in fact he did the Ricky Gervais show which was animated conversations with Carl Pilkington and Stephen Murchin back in the day honestly that was I loved that I thought that was very inspiring the animation was really cool there and it was it seems so obvious now like animator podcast but that was that was yeah I think that was good so that's what I have to say about Ali Kats okay very definitely handled anyway Anyway, the point of this is we all, for our various wrong-headed reasons, Steph not included, fail to access this medium for one reason or another.

48:34And John is going to fix us, aren't you, John? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Tell us how you're going to do that. Okay, so I'm going to quickly, really quickly run through the list that you got because everyone deserves a voice. I'm not going to speak, I'm just going to mention the shows. Okay, so there was loads of amazing suggestions, brilliant suggestions by very talented people. There was too much to go into. There was too much, yes. Also, what was the majority of them were quite well-known ones that you guys probably know of or have seen or tried to watch or something like that. So there's a few like, yes, Samurai Jack's fantastic.

49:06Bob's Burgers is great. The Batman animated series is fantastic. There's a new Batman animated series on Amazon, which is actually very, very good. And it's worth the watch. So Arkane, you've watched already. We've spoken about BoJack. Fantastic. And Blue-Eye Samurai is amazing. Yes. Like, really. Blue-Eye Samurai and Arkane, to be fair, I didn't finish Blue-Eye Samurai, but I did finish Arkane both seasons. and loved it to bits. Yeah, Blue Eyes Samurai, you definitely need to finish Blue Eyes Samurai. What are you doing? I know, I got distracted, but I was really enjoying it while I was watching it.

49:33So I also thought I'd throw in, someone mentioned Wolf King. Yes, I mentioned Wolf King because I love that style at the moment. Wolf King is a beautiful style. Yeah. Beautiful story. It really is. Here's an interesting fact. Made by the people that make Olly Oaks. Shut up. Yeah. That's why Steph likes it. Yeah. Is that a sense to be a kid's show? Yeah, like YA. It is, it is. But it's more than that. But it is more than that. It is very good. And actually, you can really immerse yourself in Wolf King. Yeah. That was maybe going to be the recommendation for you, but I think you'd be like, it's a kid's show, blah, blah, blah.

50:09It's not, though. It's not. But I feel John may be not a million miles away from that. That may be my reaction. Okay, I'm just saying it's really good. And then, so this is just worth throwing in. Disney Plus did a really, really cool show called Iwahu, which is made by an African animation studio and it was based off this African animation studio was interviewed by BBC and they said we want to kick Disney in the ass and Disney said let's have a conversation and it was Disney's Disney animation Walt Disney animation their only ever TV show they've ever made and it's really really good it didn't do huge numbers but it's good again possibly thinking about James but he'd be like it's a kids show I don't want to watch it what is wrong with you?

50:49what is wrong with you James? I mean he didn't say any of this I know, but we probably will. But you're inherently right. I probably would. And then finally, Marvel's What If. Have you watched that? I watched the whole of season one, yes. Marvel's What If is like the MCU you want more of and it just gives you more of. It's amazing. It's so good. Unfortunately, and this probably speaks to my whole problem, my main takeaway from that is, why isn't this live action? Because they couldn't afford to have an actual thing. Of course, and I know that's the answer. And they couldn't get all the actors.

51:17And it doesn't really matter if you're just using people doing their voices. But, yeah. And seeing Shang-Chi, who hasn't been in the Marvel for ages, Shang-Chi's a huge part of the Marvel What If universe. It's really worth it. You could also say something along the lines of, Avatar is an animated movie, right? Exactly. And I love Avatar. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But then you get to the point which I think, oh, yeah, but you're just wrong. I almost spent£30 on an Avatar tin that my friend, popcorn tin. Avatar tin. Oh, the popcorn bucket. Okay. Yeah, it lit up. My friend didn't let me go. But again, it's about visuals.

51:49and one of the reasons I loved Arkane is because it's so stunning to look at that it elevates it for me. And just to flag about Arkane, right, that is a very much a rarity in that usually you go to a company and you say, here's my idea for a show and they say, here's some money or here's all the money, go and make the show. Arkane went to Netflix pretty much and they were the gaming company that's in charge, I can't remember of who's in Legal Legends. Right, Games Legal Legends, yeah. We're like, we're going to make a thing and here it is. It's the most expensive of animated show ever made I'm pretty sure it still is it looks like it you could not make that it's an advert for a game that's the only way you get it so Arcane is brilliant and fantastic but you've got to stop saying that that's your reference point because it's almost impossible to make stuff up I like it when he's told off sorry you've got to stop saying that's your reference point move on well it's Arcane I've peaked I've started with the best what can I say yeah it is the best and it shows you have taste so that's one good thing wow right so the three modern essentials, I would say Blue Eye Samurai, Bluey and Arcane.

52:52I've just said don't reference Arcane, but those are the three ones that are great. But, okay, what I'm going to do is I'm going to give everyone a tailored animation recommendation. Wow. Oh my god, this is so exciting. Maximum 30 minutes of watching. Okay, and if you don't want to go past 30 minutes, you're done. And I've got, yeah, so I'll start with K. Yes, K. and some of these I think we can have open discussions and we can pitch in and we can maybe change because there's some, basically I'm just I think I can convert Boyd you're converted, if James were trying to take down why are you always the problem?

53:31I'm so sorry you're the problem, it's you it's me that's Taylor Swift okay I would recommend for her Pixar has made two TV series One is an Inside Out spinoff, which is really, really good and very, very moving and brilliant. But that was clearly like Disney where like make a spinoff to something you know. If Pixar were to make a TV show, they'd make their own thing and it's called Win or Loose. Oh my God, I love Win or Loose. It is so good. Did you review it? We did review it. Was K on? We did review it, yeah. I can't remember whether K was on when we did it. I love Win or Loose so much that I've re-watched it twice.

54:16it's so good it's so good it's so good and it's like got the quality of Pixar and it's emotional it's so emotional oh god it's so good did it make me cry I mean Steph's already converted yes of course it made me cry it was so beautiful when he's like just the whole love story the love story that's the one I was going to speak about the love story it's so good and you see inside his head and he's so smart I know it's so sad and you just want for him so much I'm like I'm dying what is it about what is it I've forgotten it it's like a softball league right Like, softball, which is a thing in America.

54:48I think it's like rounders. Yeah. Softball League and every episode follows a different member of the team. Yeah, I remember. But, like, that's, like, the basic concept. But what's really good is it's looking at basically, like, feelings and anxieties. Human connection. Human connections. It's just so special. And even though some are kids, some are adults, but it's, like, a genuinely very moving idea of we all live in this world and we all feel so alone even though we're surrounded by people. And it looks at the different ways that that can happen but also uses different styles of animation to show those things.

55:24And it's really good. So for Kay, I was going to recommend the love episode. Yeah, definitely. She'll like that. Yeah, I can't remember which episode that was. I'll dig it out. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And see. And oh, also, also, Rhea Seahorn. Ray Seahorn. Ray Seahorn. Friend of the pod? Friend pod. She voices one of the characters. Oh, okay. So, what more do you need? We're on board. Okay, okay, boy. Yes. Right. I feel like I'm Santa. This is very cool. You know in Narnia when he gives people like... Turkish delight? Yeah. No, I wish that wasn't. No, who eats Turkish delight? Sick Turkish delight. I think you told me this before and that is so odd.

56:07Do you like licorice as well? Yeah. Oh, do you like aniseed balls? Aniseed balls, Turkish delight. The only alcohol I genuinely like to taste off is Sambuca. Genuinely true. That's nuts. Horrendous monster, that's what he did. Yeah, you are. Again, going in the dossier. Okay, Boyd. Yes. This is more risky. Okay. But it's very interesting. Is it that weird cat porn thing? Yeah. Yeah. Felix the cat. Yeah. No. So you're a very classy guy. Thanks, man. He is classy. He is. He's so lovely. He's prestige. He is. He's such a real... the thing about Boyd is Boyd is such a gentleman. He is actually a gentleman.

56:44He really is. Yeah. He's a true gentleman. Very lovely guy. Anyway. But also, you love Doctor Who. You have that secret little sci-fi side of you. No, it's not so secret. It's not so secret. So it's out there. It's fully out there. So combine the sci-fi, combine the classy, and combine the uniqueness of you, Boyd. Okay? Tom Hanks has created and starred in his own animated TV show. But it came out like 15 years ago. Right? And it's called Electric City. Right? Now, the annoying thing is, Electric City, you basically can't watch it anywhere unless you're in Spain or the US. But... Spain? So you're going to Spain, boy.

57:24Just come back from Spain. Yeah, it's on Amazon Prime in Spain for some reason. But you can, I don't know if this is allowed, right? But you can, all the episodes are on YouTube. Oh, okay. Okay? And each episode is like two to three minutes. Wow. Right? but Tom Hanks voices characters there's other famous people in it it's about kind of it's kind of like it's a bit of a mystery it slowly unravels I think the animation because it's done in 2D it kind of ages well so it kind of never looks old and it's about kind of a dystopian society that you can't really understand why they have electricity but they don't use it a lot and there's a lot of kind of mystery and you find out about one of the characters kind of backstories and you learn about the history of the world but like Tom Hanks is very good and very talented and this is something that I don't think yeah yeah yeah he's a good guy if you're listening Tom thank you he's a regular listener yeah what's it called again?

58:22Electric City oh man that sounds interesting I've never heard of it I've never heard of it watch that but you have to watch 30 minutes of it sure okay and it's really really cool and really different Steph doesn't like post-apocalyptic dystopias by the way yes but I love animation and I love Tom Hanks so I'm going to watch it. Okay, wow. See, that's good. I'm going to have it working already. Okay, Steph, right? You already like animation. I do. So you're fine, right? Okay. But I'm going to give you a good recommendation. Oh, no, I'm getting an animation. But you're fine. Did you watch Maul, by the way?

58:51I've only watched the first one, Maul Shadow and Roger. I've only watched the first one and I thought it was fantastic. It's really good. It's different animation to Clone Wars, by the way. Is it? Yeah. It's not the same. It's like more painterly. I did say that, didn't I? I did say it was painted on. Do you know, is it maybe because you're a woman? I don't, I think it probably is. It's just like, yeah. I said that. It was internalized misogyny. That's the reason. Yeah, it was. Anyway, Moll's probably a feminist. He probably is. Judy, listen, I'm having my recommendation moment, okay? I'm going to say, if you're going to pick anyone from the Star Wars universe, but sure, carry on.

59:21So, Steph, you like animation already. So I felt there was anything I would suggest you kind of already know about. So there's a show on BBC iPlayer called Hushabye Lullaby, right? It is for babies. That's okay. That's fine. But you're a mum. I'm a mum. But also you get caught up in this busy world and you just need a moment to breathe, you know? And Hushabye Lullaby is one of the most beautiful animations. Like the texture of it, the way that it's made is so fantastically wonderful. Is it like Patchwork Pals? What, Pet Shop Pals? Patchwork Pals, where they're all on a quilt. It's animated. Have you not ever seen that?

1:00:04No, I haven't. You've got kids, little kids. Oh, you should watch that. I should. So it's basically, it's a patchwork, and it's got all little animals, and every little episode is like four minutes. Steph's fired back with her own. I know. Now you've got homework as well. It's like four minutes, and the patchwork animals talk to each other. See, that's cool. And it's all set on like a quilt type thing. It's on the quilt, and they have little adventures. It's really beautiful. I need to watch that. What's it on? Okay, that's BBC as well. Patchwork Pals. BBC are good at investing in this stuff. Okay, I will do that.

1:00:31So it's called Hush by Lullaby. It's three minutes. It's made by a fantastic Scottish company. They're like tiny. They're called Curious Dreamers. And they really tie in both music and sound engineer, but also animation. It's fantastic. But it's all about like a lullaby for kids. But it's really coming. It's only three minutes, but it's just like the most soothing thing. and it just shows everything that animation for kids represents. And it's just a little hug for children, but without it being like crap, like Cocomelon or something like that. Cocomelon? Cocomelon. No, listen, I mean, Cocomelon has its place.

1:01:10Cocomelon does have its place. It does, though, because they do some very catchy songs. They do some catchy songs. And that's why all the kids know the days of the week. Yeah, that's fair. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, JJ, he's cute. He's cute. I feel like we're getting psyched. Sorry, go on, go on. Here's the big challenge, the big one. Okay, James. Okay. I'm slightly scared. You should be. So, I feel like I'm already shooting myself on the foot here. But you don't like 2D, so I'm like, you need to find something that's good in 2D. Because nothing is going to match Arcane. Because it's so, like, beautiful.

1:01:47You look like you're actually in pain, James. Yeah, I'm slightly apprehensive. so you need to watch two things by the way oh Jesus Christ yes but the first thing is only 15 minutes long I can work with that okay the first thing you're going to watch the pinnacle of 2D animation the pinnacle the first thing you're going to watch you're going to treat because you like film and you love speaking about film on this podcast you're going to watch it was one of the recommendations actually it's called Primal this rings a bell oh yeah I can't think why so the guy that made Dexter's Laboratory powerpuff girls all that kind of stuff he then like wants to make stuff for adults and he made this show called primal which is about a caveman and a dinosaur that team up in prehistoric world okay right but the first raise the eyebrow the first episode shows like the absolute beauty of what 2d animation is which is when you watch it you i know you're like i don't want to so i want to get immersed you can immerse yourself in the fact that the intelligence of how to get the most for your money with like how people move like it's there's a beauty in how this 2d animation moves and how these pictures are painted and how you can be immersed in this world that's being created and how it's telling you something that you couldn't do in live action but it means so much if you had a man and a cg dinosaur you'd be like that cg dinosaur isn't real but when you have a 2D man and a 2D dinosaur, you're like, yeah, they're real.

1:03:18Go places you don't expect. It's brutal. But also, like, it's very beautiful as well. Okay. These all seem good things. And I think you need, and it's only 15 minutes. Okay. So you need to give that a chance. Crucially, that is an important part. Can I ask you a question? Have you watched The Good Dinosaur? Oh, Steph. I know. I'm so sorry. Back on track. I mean, that is an animated film, which is about, it's so beautiful. So, so sad. We should do. We should have our own podcast where I ask you questions about animated things. Yeah. Okay, fine. And then I'll ask you because you know stuff about animation as well.

1:03:50Okay, right. And then the other one I'd recommend. The other one. Now, this is a... You play the video games, right? Because I do like the video games. Right? So there's another show that's on Netflix that went completely on the radar. It's called... And don't like scrunch your nose up or anything. He's already like... The eyebrow is so high. Scrunch it already. It's called Captain Laserhawk, a Blood Dragon remix. Whoa. That sounds like a title you totally like. Is this a Far Cry spin-off? No. It's not. Well, it might be. I don't know. I don't know Far Cry. I don't know what Far Cry. It might be.

1:04:23But I'll explain. Okay. Okay. So Ubisoft is a big gaming company. Who make Far Cry. Yes. Okay. They have loads of different games. Assassin's Creed, Rayman, Far Cry. Yeah. Need I go on? As I recall, there was a kind of weird, futuristic punk DLC for one of the Far Cry games, which was Blood Dragon. I'm assuming this is that. Yeah, that's exactly it. But what they've done, it's actually really, really cool. They've taken quite a talented writer and they have taken all these different games and put them in the same world. It's Avengers for video games. Oh, we love an assembled story. And like Rayman is a main character in this.

1:05:01Not a fan of Rayman. Okay, that's fine. But he has like a really dark like story that unravels. The main character is an badass action hero. Who's Gay, which is always good, because it's just original, it's different, it's really fun, it's crazy that this exists and no one knows that it exists, and it's got a massive epic world that you can get into and watch. Okay. And that's that. You can't hate it already. You've got that eyes of show you hate it already. I'm not hating on it yet. I'm prepared to potentially hate it, but I might like it. Captain Laserhawk and the Blood Dragon remix, and that's on Netflix.

1:05:39That's on Netflix. That definitely wins the best title. It does. So, K, win or lose on Disney+. Boyd, Electric City on YouTube. Electric City, yes. Steph, Hushabai Lullaby on BBC iPlayer. James, Captain Laserhawk, a Blood Dragon remix on Netflix. And Primal, which I think is on HBO Max. Okay. I love that you've got two things. That's fine. I will do two things. I am prepared to try both of these things because then it doubles the chance of me liking one. Yes, it does. It's got a very adult way. Thank you. That's very responsible and mature of you. So what we're going to do is we are going to watch these things and then we will feed back on a special Pilot Plus episode which we will put out and you will find out what we thought of them.

1:06:20I'm going to give props to you. John's going to mark us all out of 10 or something for our... I hope so. I won't be here. I can do a Zoom. Well, we're going to do it over our remote Riverside platform. Remote Riverside platform. We're going to do a remote record and we'll parachute you in from Bonnie, Scotland. Bonnie, Scotland. And you will... Yeah. Tell us why we got it wrong. Yeah, I'm going to give you props for, like, you know, getting into animation and, like, trying to re-educate. You should be really proud of yourself. You should be. You should be. John and I are both really pleased that you've come into our world.

1:06:48Well, I'm trying. I'm trying. I'm doing my best. But I can promise nothing. Okay, that's fine. Just try. I think that's genuine. You know, like, we can't save you. I have to save myself. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Well, John, thank you very much for coming in and giving us homework, which is an odd thing to say. But yes, no, we appreciate it. We think it's good. and for all of you who listen to this podcast who are constantly wringing your hands and despairing and are unwillingness to engage with the animated arts I hope you know this shows a willingness if not necessarily you know and don't worry podcasters every week I'll be here giving an hour recommendation no I wouldn't but yeah well we'll see let's see how we get on with this one well John thank you very much thank you to be continued alright that was our animation interlude which went on a little bit longer than I thought it would so we're actually going to be controversial and skip news this week because honestly we will not have time to do reviews if we do uh so we're going to go straight into this week's reviews and first up this week we have lanterns on hbo max which is a dc comic series about not one but two green lanterns car chandler's howl jordan and aaron pierre's john stewart however this is not your average superhero show because it was specifically pitched by dc supremo james gunn as true detective with two Green Lanterns.

1:08:05And they see sort of outgoing Lantern Hal Jordan, and he's training up a potential replacement in Jon Stewart. And they visit the scene of a murder in Rushville, Nebraska. One that might have, shall we say, an extraterrestrial component. Boydie, you watched a number of episodes of this. I know this because you mentioned this recently, that you've been watching lots of episodes of Lanterns. Did I? Yes. You mentioned it on the podcast, you know, what you've been watching segment. So, given that you've watched multiple episodes, I'm assuming you liked it. I think this is one of the best examples of a superhero adaptation from a comic book into a television show.

1:08:43And in fact, the fact that it's co-created by Damon Lindelof, who of course did Watchmen, the TV show. Another truly brilliant comic adaptation. But I think he's hit the nail on the head. Because I think I am not particularly aware of the significance of the Green Lantern. I mean, I've seen the previous films and I'm vaguely aware of what it is. but this really crystallizes the whole idea of there being different Green Lanterns, hence the title, Lanterns, and of one older lantern training the new lantern. And it is literally that true detective meets, what was the other thing that it meets? He just said it's true detective with two Green Lanterns.

1:09:18I mean, that's exactly what it is. But tonally, to use our favorite words, I thought it was really clever and smart and kind of had a kind of, I don't know, had a more sophisticated tone to it than perhaps some previous shows based on DC comic book characters or any comic book characters. I really enjoyed it. I think the central culture is fantastic. There's the grumpy old twat who's reluctantly training Aaron Pierre as Jon Stewart. I know that Steph is a huge fan of Aaron Pierre. She's very excited about the fact that I think we're interviewing him soon, hopefully. You're interviewing him, aren't you?

1:09:50On Tuesday. Yeah. If you could take her along, she'll be your technical support. But they're both fantastic together. They've got real chemistry. It's really funny. It looks amazing. like the first episode begins with a spectacular kind of action sequence that's brilliantly handled and all the way through he's kind of constantly going it's aliens, it's aliens, it's aliens and no one believes it and then when Spider Alert when it turns out how it turns out that's really well done as well so all the way through it's making it feel kind of authentic and believable even though it's telling a wild story really so I absolutely loved it yeah I thought it was brilliant Steph oh it's sensational it's so brilliant I mean I'm just holding my hands up I'm a Marvel girl I'm very much a Marvel girl I mean I'm also a Marvel girl And I don't stray too far from Marvel.

1:10:34I'm not really into the DC universe. But, God, this is like righting all the wrongs of Ryan Reynolds' Green Lantern horror show. The chemistry is there. Aaron Pierre is just brilliant as the straight man. I love the whole idea of the literal passing of the torch. It's really funny. Everything you've said is sophisticated, the way it shows. It is like True Detective with superheroes. I mean I love Kelly MacDonald she's so good in it sometimes very Scottish we forgive her I totally forgive her she's got a strange accent but I think that adds to the humour and I love her sheriff character so this is an absolute triumph so Chris Mundy who's a writer showrunner on it this is an absolute triumph this is going to make people because I think Green Lantern's one of those superheroes who I think I don't know.

1:11:29He's not in. Is he anyone's favourite? I think he's nobody's favourite. But after this, this is going to breathe new life into this superhero. I just, I have no bad notes about it. And also in the first episode, just even the music, the music they use, like they use Leon Bridges' I'm Coming Home, which is one of my favourite songs of all time. Everything about it is, it's like, oh, Aaron Pierre is such a, I've got room in my life for a deeply sensual superhero. I'm sure you have ruined your life, Aaron. I love it. You will lap it up. It's great, James. I mean, it is. It is all of those things.

1:12:06It is by degrees the best thing to come out of James Gunn's DC Universe. Admittedly, from my perspective, that bar is exceptionally low because, as you know, I hated Superman with the fire of a thousand yellow suns. But this is, it's extraordinary. I mean, it's what happens when you take all of the aspects of this character and ground it so thoroughly in a way that feels organic and feels real. And even the more, should we say, because there are elements, there are aspects, and this happens in all superhero stories, there are aspects of these things which has an absurdity to them. Like, you know, like the Green Lantern Oath, perhaps, you know, in Darkest Day and Blackest Night, all of that.

1:12:42The fact that he's charging his ring from a lantern, you know, all of those things. They manage to make all of those things either funny, or there's a human, even like they make fun of the oath in this. Like a character literally makes fun of it, And it's like, they're very self-aware, it's very knowing, but it's also very respective of the source material. So it's not in any way denigrating it for people who are fans of it. You know, it may not be the intergalactic story some people were looking for, because this is a detective story, right? Like, that's what it is, a mystery story. They're trying to solve a puzzle.

1:13:12But the joy of those two characters together, I mean, they're wonderful. And Aaron Pierre's character, Jon Stewart, not that one, like, his backstory is fascinating. There's a whole episode dedicated to that. It's heartbreaking. It's a little awful. And I mean that in terms of, you know, what happens to him and stuff, not the episode. The episode's wonderful. But I watched, I think, five episodes of this last night, back to back, and then had to go to bed. But it's completely brilliant. And it's, you know, I think deservedly going to be on a Shows of the Year list somewhere. It's going to be on mine.

1:13:46It's really, really good. This is kind of one of those must-see shows this year, I think. Yeah, and it's really like, I do think if you are like me and you're a bit of a marvellous, like I'm very marvellous, I think you will be turned. I think if you don't like comic book stuff you will still like it. Oh definitely. That's my main idea. Don't be put off because you've got absolutely nothing about what the Green Lantern is. It doesn't matter. Don't think of this as a galactic peacekeeping you know organisation drama. Think of it as True Detective with superheroes. Well that's the whole point where someone says early on why don't you wear the suit anymore?

1:14:17He says ah we're on special occasion. He just walks around in a leather jacket like he doesn't care. Can I just say I love that bit and there's a court scene in the first episode where they say I mean we're gonna you know they get bail because they're like I mean he's a flight risk because he can actually fly it's like those little moments they're just brilliant yeah it's really really good I like really really enjoyed it thought it was loads of fun watch it is all I'm gonna say yes Lanterns then which is on HBO Max when? Boydminster? I think from today Monday from today Monday okay next up we have Ludwig series 2 which is as much fun to say as it is to watch and this is David Mitchell's prodigious puzzle solver taking on more mysteries, now not pretending to be his twin brother, but actually as himself.

1:14:59And it begins here with an episode which is a less conventional who didn't done it after a body turns up at the opera. Steph, is this a puzzle worth solving for you? Well, you know what? I think I've made it known that I'm not really into a kind of cosy crime. You've made it perfectly clear. I'm very, you know, kind of true crime. I love my true crime or like real like high end kind of crimey drama. Nasty, vicious, disgusting. But, and I didn't, yes, yes, thank you, Boyd. Sure. Yes, and I didn't watch season one, but I did do a catch-up on season one, so I knew exactly what happened. And they do a nice reel at the beginning of this anyway.

1:15:36Yeah, I thought this, I mean, it's dynamite casting, isn't it? Because Anna Maxwell Martin is just, I mean, I'd watch anything with her in, really. And David Mitchell. What I love about David Mitchell is it really is just David Mitchell playing David Mitchell in this. And he's wondrous, so why wouldn't you like it? What I especially loved about this, because it's not particularly my bag, is I enjoy the fact that there's this ongoing mystery of where is his brother. The other thing I really enjoyed, which is harking back to my Murder, She Wrote love, is that I enjoy the fact that this whole mystery of the murder in isolation gets wrapped up in one episode.

1:16:11So you can just watch one episode and it's all wrapped up and you know who did it, done it, didn't do it, whatever. And that to me was very appealing. It's not setting my world alight, but I really thoroughly enjoyed watching this and I like to be in the company of David Mitchell and Anna Maxwell Martin. There's a weird wave of kind of cosy crime with grumpy old guys in the sense of it. So you remember you had Timothy Spall in Death Valley, the BBC show. You've got Mark Gatiss in Bookish, which is back to soon. Which is back very soon. Very soon. And you've got this with David Mitchell being brilliantly grumpy.

1:16:46And this is, for me, the Rolls Royce of the genre. I think this is the real choice of the whole cosy crime. And it's not even that cosy. It's not that cosy. What cosy crime has come to mean is murder mystery where we don't have your naked woman with a throat cut. Not salacious. Yeah, it's very, the tone is quasi-comedic. In fact, quite a lot comedic. Comedy, drama, which happens to have murder involved somehow. And it's kind of how they write around the murder and make the murder seem cosy-ish is one of the smartest things about these shows. But I think this is the smartest one. And I know James particularly doesn't like procedures where the mystery is solved.

1:17:26I do not enjoy an episodic TV show. Oh, I do. Yes, same. But I think it's a really difficult trick to pull off because, you know, to solve the whole thing in an hour, and this has also got an arc going on of the mystery of his twin brother. And that's the ongoing thing that's pushing him and Anna Maxwell Martin, his sister-in-law, and her teenage son. They've got that pushing it. And that's always kind of percolating in the background while he solves the murder of the week. And I think the murder of the week in the opening episode is really clever. It's really well handled. You've got two women in it who go back to the Alan Partridge days.

1:17:57It's a joy to see the two of them back together. And it's just supremely enjoyable. And it's funny because it's kind of very slickly produced. It's nicely directed. It's as visually interesting as it needs to be. It's definitely not a basic, you know. It was the show we reviewed recently where you were surprised by how low the production values were. Reacher. Reacher, that's right. It's not, in that sense, this BBC One mainstream Thursday night nine o 'clock drama is kind of better produced than Reacher in some ways because it actually looks great, as great as it needs to look. So I love it. I think it's great.

1:18:29Yeah. I mean, yeah, like I said, I think it's great. Did you hate it? No, I don't hate it at all. I think he's really, really charming in the role. It's fun. It has that really light, as you say, cosy tone to it, but it's well constructed. It's got people like Ralph Ineson in it. Like, it's great cast. Anna Maxwell Martin, great cast of characters but I'm not going to watch anymore because I just don't love episodic crime procedurals yeah I know what you mean but I think it's like if you were like having a bit of cake and a cup of tea like that's a nice thing to watch but it's good and it feels it feels quality like it's not like it's a bad show or it's you know I'm not being snobbish about it's just not a genre that I don't like the different shows but it's a really well well done the only clunky bit is in the beginning they explain that the two detectives that you work with in the first years have gone and that's because Geron Howell left to join the pit.

1:19:15He's Dennis in the pit who's brilliant, one of the best characters. And Azuka Hoyle left to do Prisoner on Sky. And those two have gone from the scene. So they have a device there where they're like, oh yeah, this is why they're not around. Exactly. But yeah, Ludwig. Yes. BBC One. Thursday, Thursday, I believe, nine o 'clock. Yes. Thursday, the 20th of August, 2026. Finally this week, we have Sunny Nights, which is an Australian comedy which sees Will Forte and Darcy Carden as siblings who move to Sydney to set up a spray tan business, which is kind of flawed from the get-go. But anyway, they also get entangled in organised crime.

1:19:52So who among you wishes to combine your knowledge of tanning salons and mafioso? Oh, I think. I mean, Steph had to lend me her laptop so I could watch this because it hadn't landed in my thing. So I've only seen half of the first episode. Okay, right. So Darcy Carden is currently... I mean, sorry, I'm also watching Five Star Weekend, which Darcy Carden's in, and she's absolutely brilliant in that. um okay so the brother and sister of uh martin and vicky who have gone over to australia to make a business out of yeah out of their their spray tanning um right what the first thing is okay it's a bit too long i think this this first because it's it's got that thing of it's it's a genre blend where you're trying to blend the comedy and and serious crime and the crime is very serious in it um why is it very it's it's it's supposed to be really serious he's also got he's also martin's also trying to win back his ex-wife who's in sydney so there's that thread to it i want i want this to be funnier than it actually is okay i wanted i wanted this to be really funny and i i don't i hate to say this but i think if it wasn't for darcy carden this whole thing would fall apart because she because she's so brilliant and her character is so she's like you know she's kind of a real boss but she's really funny and every but it's sort of inauthentic in the way that such bad things happen but she deals with them all in a very kind of like you know just sort of jokey way which it just seems very unrealistic i don't really know how i feel about this because there were parts of it i really enjoyed and i thought were funny and but there I just thought, I don't know what this is.

1:21:34I don't know. It's a bit of a caper with this brother and sister trying to get... And when in those kinds of things, the main characters make decisions and you just think, of course you're not going to pay that ransom. Don't be a dick. Like, I don't know. There was bits in it that I just didn't really love or believe. And I wasn't quite sure what I was watching or what I was supposed to be caring about because I didn't care about him getting back with his wife. But essentially, I do really care about the character of Vicky and I thought she was really kind of well fleshed out. What about the opening with the, is it an alligator or a crocodile?

1:22:05Yeah, I mean, it's an incredible opening and it comes around, you know, to what actually happens in that. I'm not sure. I'm really not sure how I feel about it. And I think it's because I need to watch a couple more of them. And I was only given one, which is the only reason I didn't watch any more of them. But James, I feel like you hated it. No, I wanted to hate it. Don't get me wrong, I didn't love it. It's very much not my kind of thing. But it kind of... And when I looked at the runtime, I thought, oh, God. It's a bit long, isn't it? This is a little bit long, because the first episode is nearly an hour.

1:22:39And I was like, okay, this is going to outstakes welcome a little bit. And early on, I thought this is a little too wacky and a little too silly for me. But weirdly, you know, when it got into it, I actually... There's a dryness to some of the Australian wit here that I really appreciated. So Darcy Carden, obviously, character's American and quite over-the-top and comedic. She's funny. Will Forte kind of fades into the background a little bit in this show, I have to be honest. He's really good in four seasons, so it's like... You know, he's there and he's doing stuff, but he's not... He's not a funny character.

1:23:08He's the straight man. He's the straight man, and I think, therefore, he doesn't really stand out. Whereas, I think it's the Australian criminal element. I found them quite entertaining. They are entertaining. Do you know what I mean, though, when I say I'm not sure? This sounds like a really strange thing. You know what it's weirdly like? Do you remember Big Mistakes, which is Dan Levy's last show? I didn't watch that. Which is about a brother and sister at getting involved with criminal people. And it's such a similar concept. And I think this is better than that. So I think that was really all over the place and didn't work for me.

1:23:37It was really disappointing because I love Dan Levy and I love Schitt's Creek, etc. I think this is more coherent from what I've seen. I've only seen half of the first episode. It's good. It's really good. But it is too long. You're right. It needs to be a half hour, 45 minutes. Yes. I wouldn't call it really good. I think it's fine. It's decent. It's okay. It's decent. There's nothing wrong with it. Maybe it gets better as it goes along. I mean, I won't find out. I'm not going to lie to you. But... Put it this way. It's not a strong week and we were scrambling around for a third show too. Yeah, I think that's fair.

1:24:03It was either this or Kabul. Which had been out for like two weeks. I think... Only one week. I think... I will just say though, I do think Darcy Carden's good in this. Oh no. But I just... She is. She's great. I don't know. Do you know what I mean? Oh, I know exactly what you mean. Well, because the thing is, it's like, it's a hard line to walk when you do these kind of like, is it a drama, is it a comedy? It sounds like, oh it doesn't matter well the only reason it matters when you apply comedy plot devices and character decisions to a show that feels slightly dramatic then they don't ring true and I think that's where that's exactly what it is but anyway Sunny Nights it's just started on ITV1 on Sunday night last night and carries on weekly I think about 11 o 'clock at night it's a weird bit of schedule just to make one last point I think the other thing is the tonal shifts are too quick in it going from comedy to crime yeah it does whiplash you around the place Don't talk to him about tonal shifts.

1:24:49We are all day. Sorry. Anyway, we are out of time, so we're going to get thrown out of the studio. That is it for this week's podcast. We hope you've enjoyed it and our little animated interlude. Do subscribe to Pilot Plus, not least of all, because you want to hear what we thought of those animated shows, and you'll only be able to find out on Pilot Plus. But please do. It's not very expensive, and you get lots of good things for it. We'll be back next week. And what will we be doing? Who knows? What is next week? As you said, Bookish is coming back, Fightlands and Sky Atlantic, Dark Matter comes to Apple.

1:25:18That would probably be embargoed, but I've seen it all anyway. But that's very, very exciting. And we will have one or both of Karl Chandler and or Aaron Pierre. And then, it's in a state of flux at the moment, but there will be at least one, possibly two Green Lanterns on this podcast next week. I mean, if it's not Aaron Pierre, you'll have Steph to answer to. I think it really should be Aaron Pierre. Yeah, well, there's a very real possibility that we have a custody situation where I might end up doing both of them and then one of them goes to the Empire podcast. But we're going to figure it out.

1:25:44Don't worry. Okay, well, can you get Aaron Pierre? and ask him about his star turn in a morning show. I'll see what we can do. Priority pilot. Anyway, pilot's out.