PONIES and Falling, with guests Emilia Clarke, Jon Bernthal & Ebon Moss-Bachrach

6:02Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Oh my God, how did you?

6:03Jon Bernthal:Do you like it? It's good. This is a bona fide prop from Colin from Accounts. You are so lucky. Michael, lovely Michael who listens to this podcast who worked on Colin from Accounts, said when they wrapped the season three, which I believe is going to be the last season, he has not told me that, to be fair. That is something I intuited from Harriet Dyer, no relation, her Instagram post. But they were doing a prop sale and he bought me this cap from the Echo Park Brewery. What? An official Colin from Accounts cap.

6:27Emilia Clarke:Do you know what as well? The cap fits. It does. It fits quite well. You finish it quite well. You're not really a baseball cap wearer, whereas I am a baseball cap. I don't see you in baseball cap very often. You are not a baseball cap wearer. What do you mean outside the...

6:37Jon Bernthal:Bald men, Boydie, have to wear hats. Well, right. Like, that's important.

6:40Emilia Clarke:But one of your signature visual looks is the fact that you have a shiny head. I do. Which you do show off a lot.

6:45Jon Bernthal:But I take the cap off when I get to the office. So I wear it in transits.

6:49Ebon Moss-Bachrach:You do not wear an intrinsic cap. It's like Severus. I do.

6:52Emilia Clarke:I have a transit cap. The difference between your work life and your personal life is the cap. Yeah, that's it. That is the signature.

6:57Jon Bernthal:But now, my signature cap is this lovely Echo Park brewery. It's a genuinely nice cap.

7:02Ebon Moss-Bachrach:It is. Because it's a really cool logo. Isn't it? Yeah, it's really cool.

7:05Emilia Clarke:I saw someone. Thank you, Michael. Thank you, Michael. You're so kind. Brilliant. By the way, Colin from Accounts, dude, what's his name, who's in Devil Wears Prada 2. Patrick Bramble. Yes. Have you seen Devil Wears Prada 2? No, I haven't. I haven't yet. I thought it was a bit of a weak link to that relationship in the film anyway. He was, I would argue,

7:24Jon Bernthal:somewhat wasted. Totally wasted.

7:26Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Everyone's loving Devil Wears Prada 2 though. Everybody is loving him.

7:29Jon Bernthal:It's the most three-star film ever made. Not everyone.

7:31Emilia Clarke:I mean, it's three stars. It's good, but it's three stars. Anyway, good hat wear.

7:37Jon Bernthal:Thank you very much.

7:38Ebon Moss-Bachrach:so he out from his own money

7:41Jon Bernthal:yes

7:41Ebon Moss-Bachrach:purchased that for you

7:42Jon Bernthal:yeah and the postage was like 25 bucks it was probably also probably quite expensive yeah it could have been it could have been Michael's a mensch like he's a good guy what does he do on them on that do you know what I don't know what his exact role on Colin from Accounts was but he works in he's in the industry I only hope is he a key grip is he a gaffer no no I think he's like an AD or something like that

8:01Ebon Moss-Bachrach:okay well I hope he could claim that back on expenses because that do you think yeah I hope so

8:05Emilia Clarke:listen if he's in if he's making Colin from Accounts he's probably doing okay.

8:09Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Well, you know, you shouldn't take things for granted.

8:11Emilia Clarke:No.

8:11Ebon Moss-Bachrach:No, you really shouldn't. You're very lucky. Thank you.

8:13Jon Bernthal:Okay. Thank you, Steph.

8:15Ebon Moss-Bachrach:I'm jealous, very jealous.

8:16Jon Bernthal:But I'm not always lucky. And the reason I say this is, Boydie, what were you up to on, I don't know, Sunday night, for example?

8:23Emilia Clarke:Sunday night, I was watching West Ham versus Arsenal on my iPhone. Definitely not where I'm going with this. But what you're alluding to, if I can use those words, and I will, is that at the same time I was at the BAFTA CV Awards. Yes. 2020. The Batta TV Awards, which... At the Royal Festival Hall. Yes, which you were invited to... Yeah. ...multiple times.

8:42Jon Bernthal:Yeah. By multiple people. Kind of, yeah. And would you like to ask me how many times I was invited... How many times? By how many people... Do you know what?

8:48Emilia Clarke:There's a brilliant punchline to this as well, so I don't know if you know, but go on, how many times were you invited? None. Okay. No invites from anyone. Just to say... Multiple. Do you know... Because can you guess who was in... So I was invited... I was on the jury, the panel, that decided the shortlist for the Memorable Moment Award, which is the only award voted for by members of the public. The one that counts. The one that counts. It was one, quite rightly, by Alan Cole, winning Celebrity Chasers.

9:10Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Oh, I think you guessed that it was going to be that one when we had the list. I thought it was, yeah.

9:13Emilia Clarke:So I was on that jury. So I was invited by P &O, the sponsors, because they also sponsored that award, and went to the BAFTAs. The ferry people. The ferry people, exactly. Then in the week, so that happened weeks ago, they invited me. And then in the week before the BAFTAs, HBO Max invited me to sit at their table. I was like, oh, that's a good... Thanks, HBO. that's a good table to be on that's a juicy table yeah right in every way and remember by the way that HBO Max slash TNT the people who invited me to the Champions League final so anyway so I thought this has gone off the rails I thought long and hard about what should but I couldn't swap you can't I told you what to do I know but you gave me some very funny advice

9:52Ebon Moss-Bachrach:I did and we said one of the things you should do is just basically go to both tables have two dinners and keep just going I'm just going to go to the loo like Mrs.

10:00Emilia Clarke:Doubtful I am going to write a comedy fast script about it. Yeah, pretending, what would you do if you worked on both tables? Yeah. Worked the room, sat at two tables, had two dinners. Two desserts. It's a funny premise, so I might turn that into a comedy. But anyway, the person who's on the HBO Max table was... Noah Wiley. Amon Warman of the Empire Podcast fame. Brilliant.

10:24Jon Bernthal:So, Amon was invited. primarily a film journalist. So, just to be absolutely clear, Amon, who, and I cannot emphasize this enough, is a film journalist was invited by HBO Max, the TV streaming service, to be on their TV table at the TV Awards. Totally. Whereas myself, host of... I knew you'd like it. ...the award-winning pilot TV podcast, not a thing.

10:49Emilia Clarke:Yeah.

10:49Jon Bernthal:I saw him and I thought, oh...

10:50Ebon Moss-Bachrach:I was invited too, but I was just like, oh, do you know what, I'm not going to go. Wow. No, I wasn't, of course.

10:55Emilia Clarke:Wow. Yeah, I thought it was entertaining. I presume HBO Max does have films on it as well, though. Oh, then that's fine. That's fine. Oh, that's okay. That's fine.

11:02Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Would you have gone if you'd been invited?

11:04Emilia Clarke:No, but that's really neither here nor there, Steph. Okay. Yeah, good point. Well done. I knew there was something I meant to say. Yeah, you wouldn't have gone anywhere. Hey, you don't know that.

11:12Jon Bernthal:I like to mix things up.

11:13Emilia Clarke:I might have gone. Sunday night, I can't. I can't see it.

11:16Ebon Moss-Bachrach:There's no way you would have gone.

11:17Emilia Clarke:Three and a half hour ceremony. No way. HBO, if you're listening to this, I'm just saying, I might have come. If you'd asked me, I might have come. Anyway, I was watching the Arsenal game on my phone throughout the whole ceremony. I'm sure they appreciated that. But also, guess who it was as well? Danny Dyer. Danny Dyer because he's a West Ham fan so he's there like 20 rows in front of me clearly watching the game on his phone as well and not only that they had this most spectacular dramatic ending of any football match in recent memory where West Ham thought they'd scored and it was disallowed by VAR and he had his head in his hands what Danny Dyer was absolutely fucking devastated did you do like did you dance behind and go woo

11:48Ebon Moss-Bachrach:almost look VAR is look we can't get into this but there's been a lot of VAR decisions at the moment that are

11:54Emilia Clarke:Steph this is not footballistically Arsenal I know but it's I'm not Gary Neville, sadly, in any way.

12:00Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Do you know what I'd really like? One of Gary Neville's she-lays. So if anyone can get their hands in one of those and send that.

12:05Emilia Clarke:Let's move on.

12:07Jon Bernthal:What have you been watching, Boydie, apart from football?

12:09Emilia Clarke:Well, I was going to say the football whilst you're in the BAFTAs, but I've covered that. That's fine. I can move on from that. But it was an incredible moment in my life, never to be forgotten. Because that was going to be the defining moment of this football season, by the way, James. Just saying. But what I've been watching, actually, for the purposes of this show, appertaining to pilot TV is my favourite documentary of the year so far which is on Netflix which is a feature The End of an Era Taylor Swift's Era's Tour Retrospective no that's on Disney Plus shit this is a documentary on Netflix dropped last week and it's a feature length documentary aka it could be described as a film but it's not a film because it's not coming out of cinemas let's not have that whole conversation again it's just absolutely brilliant from beginning to end and it is Marty Life's Short Life's Short oh god

12:56Ebon Moss-Bachrach:I bet that's brilliant.

12:58Emilia Clarke:Yes, Martin Short, the star, you're probably best known these days for being in Only Mothers of the Building with Steve Martin, his lifelong friend, Steve Martin. He's been my regular listeners, loyal listeners to the show. Now, he is in my, I think he's one of the five funniest people in the world ever. Absolutely. Present company excluded. Yeah, and I always loved him ever since I saw him. I think it goes back to Three Amigos, but I would say Father of the Bride. Father of the Bride. Genius. Inner Space. Inner Space, Jiminy Glick, the funniest comedy character ever invented. And I include Alan Partridge, maybe even David Brent in that I don't know he's up there anyway and it's directed by Lawrence Kasdan who's a brilliant proper film director and best mates with him as well but what's surprising about it is that it traces his life from Korea and he's had a lot of tragedy in his life a lot of tragedy his big brother died when he was like 12 or something and he's had a lot of the recent deaths in his family and friends of his died but he's so he's so still managed to take everything with his sense of humour.

13:57Emilia Clarke:He manages to be funny about all of that stuff. He makes dark jokes about the bereavements he's had to go through him and his family in the most incredible way. So I loved it. It does absolute justice to the great man and it's fantastic.

14:13Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Your favourite documentary of the year.

14:14Emilia Clarke:Marty, Life is Short on the Netflix. Then the other show I've been watching is I thought I'd go back because I've had so many correspondences. Is that the word? I don't know. about...

14:25Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Please God, please God. Yeah, Widow's Bay.

14:28Jon Bernthal:And there is an entire subreddit thread on this subject and the reception seems to be, and I cannot say this clearly enough, universally lauding it. Not even like, yeah, it's fine. They genuinely love it. Can I...

14:42Ebon Moss-Bachrach:I just want to say...

14:43Jon Bernthal:You can say whatever you want.

14:44Ebon Moss-Bachrach:I'm just going to remind you both. I'm going to take you back two weeks.

14:47Jon Bernthal:Because Steph didn't like it when we saw it. We were quite positive on it. I know, yeah. But Steph actually doesn't know what she's talking about.

14:51Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Where you both were so... You were.

14:54Emilia Clarke:I wasn't as negative as he was. You weren't as negative.

14:56Ebon Moss-Bachrach:No, I hated it. Yeah, he hated it. And I pleaded with you to watch it because it was so good. I pointed out, and then somebody wrote in, and it's on Pilot Plus. They wrote in and gave a brilliant email of why you should love it, all the reasons. And now I would like to hear all the reasons that Boyd now loves Widows Bay.

15:15Emilia Clarke:So first of all, we read out the email on Pilot Plus, as you say, which accused me of ignoring, because I did talk about how it had a mixed response from critics. because I did roughly use that phrase or whatever. Because I had read negative reviews, a couple of negative reviews, quite prominent ones. And our correspondent said that that wasn't true and I was wrong about it being mixed. Now, what is the case? It's on Rotten Tomatoes, which annoys me anyway. And the other one, what's the other one? Metacritic. Metacritic. It's like 80, 90%. So clearly, vast majority. But there were Time magazine, it was quite scathing about it.

15:44Emilia Clarke:And there was another magazine, what's one of those Collider or one of those online type things where you have to pay to actually read the first half of the review. It was pretty negative as well. as was I but I admit that I was being slightly misleading by saying it was mixed because it's definitely the vast majority were positive

15:58Jon Bernthal:I think the reader said that you said they were negative

16:01Ebon Moss-Bachrach:and you did say that

16:02Jon Bernthal:and the reader was arguing that actually at best at worst they were mixed

16:06Emilia Clarke:well Times 1 is absolutely negative and I read it very soon after we'd reviewed it and it's kind of said all the things that I felt about it in a way and the other thing I think I was obsessed with at the time for some reason was about actor performances in comedies and I think we've done a couple of comedies where I've been slightly irritated by actors being slightly like I'm in a comedy type acting. You know, the register, if you like, was just too much and it left me unconvinced and slightly ruined those shows for me.

16:35Ebon Moss-Bachrach:From what I remember, I think part of your issue was that people were talking a bit loudly.

16:39Emilia Clarke:Yes, there was a lot of shouting in that first episode. And I maintain there was too much shouting in that first episode. Okay, well... I'm just saying.

16:44Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Okay, now begin your reverse ferret.

16:48Emilia Clarke:But...

16:48Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Put your reverse beepers on. But, overall...

16:51Emilia Clarke:Double down, boy, double down. Overall, I have to say, it's really good.

16:56Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Thank you, Paul. I'm so sorry.

16:57Emilia Clarke:As if I made it myself.

16:58Ebon Moss-Bachrach:You're such a flip-flopper.

17:00Emilia Clarke:I don't know what the fuck I was thinking. I am the Kia Starmer. Wow. There's no way for me to cut that out. I have totally done a 180, reverse ferret, whatever you want to call it, U-turn. It's a big U-turn for me. It's really good. I don't know why I was thinking. It's really good, isn't it? what I was thinking. Well, I do know what I was thinking. I do think, I'm still going to maintain also slightly in that politician way where they never admit they're wrong about anything that the first episode isn't the best. I think the second episode really is a massive leap forward when he goes to the haunted hotel.

17:38Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Yeah, the haunted hotel.

17:38Emilia Clarke:And that's really well done. Yeah. And even though I kind of knew what was going to happen in the end of that because if you're a horror fan, you're going to get all the tropes are there in this show and you're going to know kind of, you can predict what's going to happen when they deploy those tropes. But it's really entertaining.

17:55Ebon Moss-Bachrach:It's so entertaining.

17:56Emilia Clarke:He is great. And I do think he was shouting too much in episode one. But after that, he's fine. He settles down. There's a great kind of putative romantic element to it, which is really where he goes to do this nice lady meets cute when she's looking at a road sign. The eccentric older characters get more depth, particularly the kind of main one, that main guy who he has the big clash with. Turns out to be... The fisherman guy. The fisherman does it. He needs it more than anything. And the whole premise, which is that what would happen if a complete cynic and non-believer in anything supernatural, whose whole job is being undermined by these annoying locals, who he himself refers to as yokels or whatever at one point, what if all of those things turned out to be true?

18:42Emilia Clarke:And then he has to kind of almost convince himself that these things aren't actually happening when they clearly are, and that the supernatural stuff is a figure of his imagination. They do cleverly deploy things like him drinking a lot, the fumes of the damp in the room might have got him hallucinating. But in the end, it's like, all right, this stuff is happening to me. I'm terrified. I need to sort it out somehow. It's just, it's a delight. It is a delight. Yeah, it's really good. Do you know what else is a delight?

19:11Ebon Moss-Bachrach:What? You are. Well done for going back to watch it because it is so good and I want people to watch it because it's really funny. Isn't it funny?

19:18Emilia Clarke:It is funny. It's funny, and do you know what? The horror stuff is very well done. It's like comedy horror almost is defined by stuff like Shaun of the Dead, which actually is comedy, comedy, comedy, horror, horror, right? Whereas this is comedy, comedy, comedy, horror, horror, horror, horror. And the horror stuff is really genuinely creepy sometimes when it needs to be. So it's quite well judged in that way, I think, tonally. Mr. Tonal Shift over there would find it. The tone was what turned me off. Yeah, but I think they get their act in gear as it goes on, and just the way they there's one bit which is quite David Lynchian with the old woman in the distance and all of that they use distance quite well a bit like the Doctor Who episode 73 Yards yes so yeah I really like it you've now made me want to revisit this I'm sorry

20:02Ebon Moss-Bachrach:you'll really like it James you will just give it another chance because bear in mind

20:06Jon Bernthal:it doesn't exactly gel with my sensibilities regarding comedy that said I do take people's points that like sometimes because that one I only did get time to watch the first one which I did struggle with sometimes a bad first episode does not a bad show make. Like, it can find its feet as it goes along. So, I will definitely give it at least one more episode when I can. I can't promise when because Steph and I have agreed that having reviewed Dutton Ranch on Pilot Plus... I mean, this is stupid for a start. Right. We have committed to a Yellowstone run-through because we've never seen it.

20:36Ebon Moss-Bachrach:We're going into the Stone House. We're going into the run. Yeah, that's good. And we are going to be like Taylor Sheridan's biggest reviewers now. That could be...

20:44Jon Bernthal:I mean, let's be honest. I will re-watch the pilot and I will watch a couple of episodes and if I hate it, I'm just going to stop. But Dutton Ranch has made me want to know what happened. I need to understand Rip. That's what it is. I need to get into the mind of Rip.

20:56Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Rip cannot be understood. I told you.

20:58Jon Bernthal:I think that might be true.

20:59Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Do you know who is Rip's, one of his greatest fans? David Beckham. He was on David Beckham's show. Really? Yes. And David Beckham.

21:06Emilia Clarke:The football watching show that I mentioned last week. The one that you mentioned last week

21:09Ebon Moss-Bachrach:which is why I'm bringing it up is because he had him on it and he was basically saying he's a huge Yellowstone fan. David Beckham he was like saying I just you're like the greatest ever I love your character you're such a a man's man you're so brilliant so I'm just saying interesting

21:25Emilia Clarke:slightly worrying that David Beckham is modelling himself on

21:28Ebon Moss-Bachrach:well slightly worrying the dude from

21:30Emilia Clarke:the dude from the ranch what's it called the new one the ranch

21:33Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Dutton Ranch

21:34Emilia Clarke:and it is excellent

21:36Ebon Moss-Bachrach:addictive TV Steph

21:39Jon Bernthal:what animal have you been watching documentaries about this week

21:42Ebon Moss-Bachrach:do you know what's so funny about that is it badgers you know You know I went Secret Life of Bees and then I went on to Secret Life of Whales. If they haven't got a secret life,

21:52Emilia Clarke:it's not worth bothering with.

21:53Ebon Moss-Bachrach:They've got now Secret Life of Octopuses.

21:56Jon Bernthal:Who has? Who's doing these shows?

21:57Ebon Moss-Bachrach:The Disney Channel. It's great. It's so good.

22:00Jon Bernthal:Not so secret. They've done a fucking documentary. That's the irony.

22:04Ebon Moss-Bachrach:I'm not going to go into it. But what I will go into is this sounds like the title of this show is just like a rhetorical question, which is Netflix is, and everyone's watching this, should I marry a murderer?

22:18Jon Bernthal:I mean, surely the answer to that is just no, move on.

22:22Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Exactly, no. Okay, so Caroline Muirhead, right, is a pathologist. She'd recently come out of a relationship and it was apparently not very nice and he's obviously a horrible cheat or whatever. And she went on, like most people do, on the old Tinder, right? Who uses Tinder? Well, back in that day. Oh, okay, fair enough. Okay, like the swipe right. I'm familiar.

22:45Emilia Clarke:Far too familiar, but carry on. I think it's entered into popular culture by now, by the way. We know what Tinder is.

22:50Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Just to be clear.

22:51Emilia Clarke:Yes, please, please Tinder-splain to me.

22:53Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Anyway, and she swiped on this guy called Sandy McKellar, okay? Scottish? Yes, and he was like a farmer guy, and they met up, and it was one of these whirlwind romances, right? This is a famous case, but it's all told from her perspective. And basically, he reveals to her that he proposes four months, whirlwind proposal after four months. Love bombing, red flag. Well, then he tells her that he's accidentally killed someone and buried them where they've been clay pigeon shooting. Yes, I know. People are looking for this poor, poor man, Tony Parsons, who went missing in 2017.

23:37Emilia Clarke:Tony Parsons, the former Daily Mirror journalist. No, no, no. I did notice he'd been quiet recently.

23:43Jon Bernthal:Yeah.

23:44Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Listen, Tony Parsons, 2017, he went missing, cyclist, grandfather, cancer survivor, like this amazing human being. And these two twin brothers had accidentally knocked him down and thought that the best course of action would be to just bury him because they were like, oh, why ruin everybody else's lives, which is ridiculous. Anyway, he admits that to this woman and she starts thinking, hold on a minute. and he's like I need you to help me because they're going to start building around this area and they're going to uncover his remains and she starts thinking oh has he picked me because I'm a pathologist definitely and anyway this is all happens this is out there so it's not a spoiler she does something brilliant to mark where this guy's buried she puts a she's got a Red Bull can and because it's in the vast you know the highlands in the middle of nowhere and she drops a Red Bull can and she crushes it so she can tell the police because she phones the police to say, look, I've got some information.

24:38Ebon Moss-Bachrach:She does the right thing. And this is about how she then has to remain in a relationship with him while they're simultaneously investigating him and trying to get him to confess to this crime. Now, what I will say is, and one of my pilot Instagram friends, Richard, had messaged me to say, do you think that she's the most annoying person ever? And she does come across as slightly irritating because she seems so pleased to be like, I don't know, it's just, there's something slightly off about her tone. However, it is very interesting and it's really good. Like how, like, because she loves this person.

25:17Ebon Moss-Bachrach:She's come up for this. She loves this person. What does she do? She leads, she ends up leading this double life. So it's definitely worth watching.

25:22Emilia Clarke:Is it a whole series about her? How many episodes? Oh,

25:25Ebon Moss-Bachrach:I can't remember how many episodes. I think it's four. Just about that case. It's about this case and what happens. It's worth, it's worth watching. Anyway, the other thing I've been watching which you two will go is Running Point Season 2 okay Kate Hudson

25:40Emilia Clarke:it's got brilliant people because when I brought it up

25:43Ebon Moss-Bachrach:the last time you were like oh no no I wasn't

25:46Emilia Clarke:I watched the first episode of Season 1 and I quite enjoyed it but I didn't carry on but this has got Justin Theroux in it as well of course

25:51Ebon Moss-Bachrach:it has got Justin Theroux

25:52Emilia Clarke:huge bonus points

25:53Ebon Moss-Bachrach:now it has got yes now Kay who I thought would like this said she didn't like it because she wanted more Justin Theroux and what I can tell you is Season 2 is absolutely tons of Justin Theroux. And not only that, and this is, sorry, if you don't know what Running Point is, Running Point is Kate Hudson takes over her family's basketball team and it's absolutely fabulous. But the brilliant thing about season two is do you know who's joined? Ray Romano.

26:19Emilia Clarke:Oh, yeah. Yes. Everyone, everybody loves Ray.

26:21Ebon Moss-Bachrach:And everybody does love Raymond. And he's in it as a coach and it's absolutely fantastic. I talked about it as recovery TV, but now I'm going to elevate it to just TV. It's great.

26:31Emilia Clarke:Yeah, I quite liked it. But yeah, I need to go back on one. It's a sports comedy, isn't it? It's a sports comedy. It's very much up my street. Yeah, it's really good. Speaking of sports comedy, Steph.

26:40Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Yeah.

26:40Jon Bernthal:There's something else you've been watching, isn't there?

26:42Ebon Moss-Bachrach:What?

26:43Jon Bernthal:Another sports comedy. Or rather, is it a comedy? That's the question. What? Tell me how Ted Lasso has been treating you.

26:52Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Okay. I'm having a difficult time at the moment. Yeah. Okay, and I'll tell you why.

26:58Jon Bernthal:What season are you on, first of all? I'm assuming the third.

27:00Ebon Moss-Bachrach:No, I'm not. Should you know why? Because I've had a lot of trouble with Nate. Yeah. And I'm finding it really upsetting. Right. The tonal shift is really proving problematic for me. Okay, I didn't like the beard episode. Right. Right, I didn't like that episode. Oh, okay. Yeah, I thought I would, but I didn't like that because I love the beard. There's a bit where Nate is horrible to the kit boy, and I was like and the way that was shot where it was off scene him being horrible to Kit Boy I thought oh it was like a dagger to my comedy heart I really didn't I just thought this is awful and then obviously now Ted is in a state of kind of self exploration he's having all these panic attacks and to be perfectly honest with you it's all got a bit too serious for me and I don't like it I've just finished the episode with the funeral again it's all a bit you know I've come to it for some lols.

28:00Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Yes. I've been, I feel like they, we've been walking along like this and it's, hey, yeah, yeah, yeah, and then they've gone, bam. Yeah. No, you will, you will see the layers of these people and I don't want to.

28:10Jon Bernthal:Yeah. I don't want to. Well, because the first season is a half hour comedy and then season two is basically a 45 minute drama.

28:15Ebon Moss-Bachrach:It's 48 minutes.

28:16Jon Bernthal:You're quite, yeah. But, and it's a different thing and I'm not saying, I don't know the exact timeline but I know Jason Sudeikis did split up with Olivia Wilde during a period of production. I think those two things do intersect to a certain extent. So I'm not saying that's entirely down to his mental state in this, but it is a really sombre, downbeat season. And I don't think, I mean, it doesn't. It never goes back to what it was in season one. Oh, really? It never goes back to that level of comedy. I think it does rally. Like, there's definitely, and I say rally, I never thought it was bad, but I think you have to accept the evolution of the tone of the show as it goes on, where season one is one thing, season two is another thing, and season three is a third thing altogether.

28:51Ebon Moss-Bachrach:No.

28:52Jon Bernthal:So I think you should press on with it just to see how season three treats you?

28:56Ebon Moss-Bachrach:I don't, I didn't even like, you know, Hannah Waddingham's character getting together with Sam. I didn't enjoy that thing, you know, with the texting and then they find out it's them and then they have a little thing and then they break up at the funeral. And then even, I really didn't like Jamie Tartt and Brett Goldstein. You know, there seems to be there about to fight over Keely, who I love. I don't know, I just, I'm regretting. I'm regretting watching the last two episodes. It's really put me off. Yeah, because I thought I was going to, I loved the first season. So, you know, I've got two more episodes to go of season two.

29:33Ebon Moss-Bachrach:And I just... Keep going, Steph. Keep going. Well, I feel it's, I don't know, it's not giving me the feels anymore. Okay.

29:39Emilia Clarke:You are not alone. I would say you're in fairly good company there. Yeah, a lot of people found it a challenge, yeah. It was just weird. It was just a weird, slightly weird, what were they getting at? I remember thinking, I haven't re-watched or anything, but I just remember at the time thinking, what are they trying to get at with this character? Because it's such a turn. And firstly, it's part of your comment on the dog-eat-dog world of football, which is valid. It is horrendous stuff, immoral stuff happens. But to choose that particular character, it was weird.

30:13Ebon Moss-Bachrach:I think the problem is that with it, you don't actually see any other managers. You don't see the confrontations between any kind of the dog-eat-dog world. so it just seems like apropos of nothing

30:24Emilia Clarke:isn't that the thing he's underappreciated

30:26Ebon Moss-Bachrach:no he started to believe his own hype that's what happens he started to believe his own hype and he's just turned into a right old arsehole and then the thing is they've brought in this sports psychologist and those scenes are too long you know because you know I love shrinking and that's a different show and it feels like they're trying to I don't know it just doesn't work for me well interestingly for the new season

30:49Emilia Clarke:the new season is coming soon

30:50Ebon Moss-Bachrach:it's the girls football team

30:51Emilia Clarke:but also he hasn't been announced as being in it at all and now I'm assuming he may well get a cameo or wherever but he hasn't been confirmed as being I believe that all the cast regulars are there apart from Nick Muhammad pretty much but I'm sure he'll appear at some point maybe maybe they're keeping that back as a spoiler

31:07Ebon Moss-Bachrach:I'd like to know if anyone sort of gave up after season 2 I think a lot of people did

31:11Jon Bernthal:did they?

31:12Ebon Moss-Bachrach:okay fine alright well I'm not alone then

31:13Jon Bernthal:no you're not alone but I do think it's worth like it is worth sticking through I really enjoyed all of it actually but yeah there's whiplash definitely yeah

31:21Ebon Moss-Bachrach:I'm not happy.

31:22Jon Bernthal:Well, what I've been watching is, I guess, twofold. I have been re-watching some of Dark Matter on Apple. Did you see Dark Matter? No. Boydie, I know you did, but I don't know if you finished it. I definitely didn't finish it. Right, so this is another one of their prestige-y sci-fi shows from, I want to say, last year? I think it was last year. It could have been the year before. It's really hard to say because time has no meaning, and it is a flat circle. It's basically Joel Edgerton is a man who is one night abducted by a man who looks suspiciously like himself. Oh, yeah, that one. And he is kidnapped and taken to another dimension.

31:53Jon Bernthal:Another dimension. Another dimension. Yeah. And his double from that other dimension takes over his life and starts to live with his wife and raise his son while he's marooned in this other dimension. And the idea is that one of them has created this box which puts people in superposition. So they are essentially like it's a quantum state where you can access parallel worlds. And so there's infinite different worlds that he can go to. And he ends up travelling the multiverse to try and get back to Jennifer Connelly.

32:18Ebon Moss-Bachrach:That's a bit like that Black Mirror episode with what's his name from Breaking Bad where there's the two of them they're stuck in space do you remember absolutely

32:25Emilia Clarke:which was a terrifying episode that's a terrifying episode

32:29Ebon Moss-Bachrach:absolutely it's got a whole

32:30Jon Bernthal:horrid thing

32:31Ebon Moss-Bachrach:do you know which one I mean

32:32Jon Bernthal:no because I don't watch Black Mirror but yes that's a whole other conversation don't watch Black Mirror just add it to the list of great things he doesn't watch I don't enjoy anthologies but there's some amazing

32:43Ebon Moss-Bachrach:episodes of Black Mirror that you would really enjoy like you really enjoy that episode

32:46Jon Bernthal:I agree but it goes against TV for me is all about long form storytelling and that is not long-form storytelling. Therefore, I don't watch it. It's a whole thing. Don't worry about it. But one day, one day, it's on my list. It's been on the sofa list forever. Just because it's...

32:59Ebon Moss-Bachrach:You should start with that episode because you'd really like that because it basically is exactly what you've just described.

33:02Jon Bernthal:It's one TV show that I wouldn't have to start at the beginning, at least. Although I have seen the pig episode. Now, Dark Matter, based on the book by Blake Crouch. It's really good. I really enjoy it. It's coming back in July, I want to say, for season two. But it's also one of these things where it's been a while and because my brain has been Swiss cheesed by doing this podcast and I can't retain information. I was like, I can't remember what's been happening.

33:25Ebon Moss-Bachrach:What other multiverses does he go to? So many. He's got his verse.

33:30Jon Bernthal:Yes.

33:31Ebon Moss-Bachrach:He's got Jason 2's verse

33:33Jon Bernthal:because Jason is his name. Okay. That's the one that the other guy came from and then there's all of the infinite other ones as well.

33:38Ebon Moss-Bachrach:So it's like, who is the original?

33:42Jon Bernthal:Yeah. And it takes a turn towards the end as well. There's some twisty stuff in there. It's really good. It's a really good show. but I'd forgotten so much and I was really looking forward to season two does Jason too

33:53Ebon Moss-Bachrach:think that he is the original Jason

33:56Jon Bernthal:well there is no original he knows he's not where he should be so because he's deliberately abducted him so he can take over his life because ultimately he made a decision that he regrets and he's able to reverse that decision by going to and by stealing the life of someone who made the correct decision if that makes sense

34:11Ebon Moss-Bachrach:sort of does

34:11Jon Bernthal:yeah it's quite cool

34:13Emilia Clarke:I think it arrived at a time where multiverses were everywhere well Constellation the new mirror past show also on Apple was the same year yes I would totally

34:20Jon Bernthal:have got those mixed up and that's another multiversal story yeah and then also

34:23Emilia Clarke:there was like the Marvel had gone down the whole multiversal route it was just a bit too many too many multiverses

34:28Ebon Moss-Bachrach:oh no I'm a fan of a multiverse

34:30Emilia Clarke:yeah I like a multiverse that's interesting because you're not a fan of starting again

34:35Ebon Moss-Bachrach:that's not post-apocalypse that's not a multiverse so a multiverse

34:37Emilia Clarke:post-apocalypse is fine yeah as long as they're not starting again

34:40Ebon Moss-Bachrach:I don't know if it was part of like four other multiverses then I'd be accepting oh my god

34:45Emilia Clarke:she's got a minimal multiverse formula yeah for what is accepted I'd accept it. Well, it's good to know.

34:49Ebon Moss-Bachrach:In Running Point, too, they have this thing where she has these kind of sex dreams. Running Point is definitely

34:55Jon Bernthal:not part of the multi-pass. Well, hold on a minute. Hold on a minute. Is it taking a turn? Now I'm interested.

35:01Ebon Moss-Bachrach:She has all these sex dreams about J. Ellis, who is gorgeous, who was the former coach, and they're in, and they appear, they're in, like, the set of Dune, and it's really, really random. So, hang on.

35:12Jon Bernthal:Kay Hudson's having sex dreams about Dune. This sounds like my weekend. Carry on.

35:16Ebon Moss-Bachrach:She's having sex dreams about J. Ellis. J. Ellis?

35:22Jon Bernthal:Jesus Christ. So Dune, J. Ellis and sex dreams. This show is wild.

35:27Ebon Moss-Bachrach:J. Ellis. J.

35:29Jon Bernthal:Ellis. Okay, he's an actor. J.

35:31Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Ellis the actor. He's a great actor. What's he been in? I'll look him up. Don't worry. Top Gun and whatchamacallit's amazing show which I can never remember the name of. This is to send it into farce. Anyway, she keeps having sex dreams about him. and where she's they're both in June

35:48Emilia Clarke:wow I can't believe you took about burying the lead if you're going to mention a show that's got any kind of June element in it in front of James that's the first thing you mention forget about the rest of it sorry it's the June thing if you want

36:01Ebon Moss-Bachrach:if you would like to watch some sci-fi sex streams then you need to watch Running Point season 2 it's not even a question okay wow

36:10Jon Bernthal:oh okay okay so that's a thing I don't know quite how we got onto JLS but sure Don't matter. And the other thing I have been watching is Punisher One Last Kill, which is the one-off TV event, which is not a movie. It's less than an hour, not a film. And it's on Disney+. It is a single episode of The Punisher, so we should be covering it on this podcast, but for reasons unknown, we are reviewing it on the Empire podcast instead. Of course you are. I don't fully understand why, but we are. But I watched it this morning.

36:37Emilia Clarke:Am I more than reviewing it?

36:39Jon Bernthal:He did review it, yeah, it's true. BAFTA attendee. Oh, don't even start with me. so yes I'm going to go full Punisher on that the next BAFTAs it's quite I would say plot light but deliberately so so the set up is is the one of Frank a load of killers come for Frank and so it turns into like the raid so it's just like in this apartment building and it is so violent and so bloody and it's mainly just him bellowing and being traumatised and then just murderising hundreds of people but it's I mean it's great it's really great I really enjoyed it so that was great And also it's written by John Bernthal.

37:14Jon Bernthal:It's written by John Bernthal. Oh, he wrote it? He wrote it, yeah. Oh, wow. He's getting his finger out, isn't he?

37:19Ebon Moss-Bachrach:He's getting his pen out.

37:20Jon Bernthal:And this is an excellent segue into the fact that that's not the only thing that John Bernthal wrote recently because he also wrote Gary. Yes, yes. Sorry, just ending a section with the word Gary there. He also wrote Gary, the spin-off gorilla episode of The Bear, which I spoke to him about when I interviewed him and Evan Moss-Bachrag on Friday night.

37:40Emilia Clarke:That's right. And luckily for you, you didn't just say the two-hander Gary. Yeah. She said Gary. Explain what it was. It was just the best I was doing.

37:50Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Can I come back to Jay Ellis for one minute? Oh, my God. We should just mention it's insecure. I always seem to forget. You know, it's a Ray's amazing comedy, which is one of the greatest comedies ever. I'll recognise him. Yeah, he's Lawrence. Oh, OK.

38:01Jon Bernthal:Is it OK if John and Eben talk now? Oh, well, is that your intro? Sorry. Sorry, was that an intro? Yeah, yeah. You know, we've got celebrities here waiting to talk to the listeners, but you're banging on about JLS. That's my fault.

38:13Ebon Moss-Bachrach:J-E-L-S.

38:14Jon Bernthal:Unbelievable. Does JLS know that there's a man called JLS? Our first guests this week are John Bernthal, the Punisher himself, and Eben Moss-Batright, cousin, which is very exciting because they wrote the surprise episode of their, Gary, which dropped into our feeds last week, completely without warning, very, very exciting. Fascinated by this entire endeavour, I leapt onto a call with both Eben and John to kind of find out how it all came about. So I should say, there isn't a spoiler in here for the end of the episode, because some stuff happens. We do talk about some scenes and some conversations.

38:47Jon Bernthal:It's not really a spoiler, but I would say if you want to go into Gary cold, then, you know, just bear that in mind. So here is me talking to John Bernthal and Emma Moss-Bachrack about Gary.

39:01Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Bear that in mind.

39:06Wow.

39:07Jon Bernthal:Thanks very much for coming on the show. and thank you very much for dropping this show it was a lovely surprise to have in the middle of the week we should have more gorilla drops from our favourite shows I like that it'd make the whole week a lot better it's fun right it's kind of thrilling though it's great and I love the fact that it's it's kind of its own thing like it's not sort of episode nought of season 5 it's not the end of season 4 like it's its own entity it's just Gary was that always like the plan when you did this or did it come to you quite late to sort of do this as a kind of a gorilla drop

39:34Ebon Moss-Bachrach:we never really knew I mean because it exists in its own thing and it's not sort of there's not plot points or story points that are neat. So we were never really sure where it was going to fit. And frankly, we are not allowed to make those decisions. I had this completely impractical and romantic idea that I wanted it to exist like a hidden track, like somewhere in season four, season five, where like the episode would end, there'd be a credit sequence and then 10 minutes of a black screen and then this thing would just start. I've probably got you know, laughed out of the room. They're like, you know, you're a fucking idiot.

40:14Ebon Moss-Bachrach:But, so that's, I think the spirit of that is why we had it as a sort of unannounced thing. I think, I don't know, people talk about things so much and there's so much PR and so much hype machine

40:24Jon Bernthal:that it's just to just sort of put something out there feels really fun and refreshing, kind of in the spirit, the gorilla spirit of the bear. A hundred percent. Yeah, which I think is lovely. And there's nothing about this whole thing that I don't love, just the whole idea of it, the setting of it you know because we've heard briefly about this legendary road trip to gary i think in season three and in season four i think it's come up yeah that's right yeah like and and was was that was the sort of the germ of that story what what put this in your minds was that the was that the jumping off point like did it come out of a conversation about the characters or did you guys literally just like the idea of working together more kind of both to be honest

41:01Ebon Moss-Bachrach:with you you know we we really did you know we went to chris we've known each other a long time we're enormously close and and uh you know the only reason you know that i get to come visit and play around on the bear you know a little bit every year is because evan you know he brought me over there such a such a gift and i love it so much and and and you know we went to chris together and sort of pitched an idea of you know just a few scenes to maybe include you know in this season of the two of us together and and and and and to really kind of like dig in a little bit to like the friendship and what it was about and and uh you know then chris kind of answered us with saying well like why don't you guys just write an episode which is a a real testament to the kind of artist he is and and really a window into the spirit of the show and how it's made you know it's it's it's such a collaborative show it's always such a really like profound enormous joy for me to to head over there for a week and then to also watch the show and and and be a fan of the show um but you know i have to say you know we came up with this uh you know really with very few bumps in the road we we kind of knew exactly what we wanted to do again we know and trust each other really well um and and i i found often you know the the things that i kind of dig the most and and love the most are the things that sort of come the easiest and don't have a lot of conflict we we never were in a in a place with this piece where we were up against the deadline we were like shit we got to turn something into fx you know we we kind of you know chris told us hey you guys got the green light and we immediately kind of jumped on it we had something really quick and you know what you saw is what we wrote and and and and really it it um we really did not the the hardest piece of the puzzle was when we were going to do it kind of schedule wise but we knew what we wanted this to be and and i think we're both really proud of it what was your process

42:59Jon Bernthal:for this like because i mean you as you say you've worked together unless you're on the stage at the moment together right so like but did you each take each other's characters did you send stuff back and forth did you sit together and do it like how did you actually put it together because i guess you both must feel a certain protective sort of paternal feeling to your individual

43:16Ebon Moss-Bachrach:characters when you're doing these things yeah there is a possessiveness of our characters but i think that to john's point you know there's a lot of trust between the two of us and there's very few people that I would, I'm very happy for him to put words in my mouth. You know what I mean? Like I trust him and he is a sounding board. And you know, even this this play that we're doing, you know, that we're going to do in a few hours, you know, he's like, maybe one of two people that I'll listen to in terms of ideas about things. So, um, but just practically to answer your question, really, um, we were workshopping this play last summer.

43:50Ebon Moss-Bachrach:And so we would go back after rehearsing, we would go back to John's hotel room and just, you know, talk about different scenes, just have an idea brainstorming. And then he had the clerical, he's got final draft. So he would sort of take all of our ideas and format it and put it into sort of a cohesive, acceptable thing. I would write scenes, but I write scenes on like the back of like a brown paper bag or something. And there's drawn, there's drawings on it. And it looks like Chris, Chris always says that like my notes and my things always seem like they've been like smuggled out of prison. And then, you know, after our workshop ended and we're in different parts of the world, there was just constant a lot of emails, but actually more phone conversations back and forth and ideas and just and then little screenshots of my prison smuggled and scratching scenes.

44:43Ebon Moss-Bachrach:and um and then chris helped chris had notes for drafts and you know um notes from the um on the network and all that stuff but again like john said pretty pretty painless pretty easy birth

44:53Jon Bernthal:it's also like fresh territory isn't it because i feel like because rich is interesting he's got the biggest arc of anyone on the show and he's very different when we leave him in season four from when we met him in season one but when we have him here he's in a different place altogether because you feel there's a lightness to him right like there's a there's it feels like the weight that we're so used to him carrying on his shoulders isn't yet there so and and mikey obviously he casts this shadow over the whole show like he haunts essentially the whole show and i wondered is that you know an interesting place to play as a playground because it's somewhere you've not

45:26Ebon Moss-Bachrach:really been able to be before oh james that's so that's such a great question um i'm so glad you saw that stuff i'm like i'm always interested in like in like joy you know and and you know in that forks episode in season two you know when we finally get to see this guy celebrate after he's been in such a tunnel for so long and he sees a little bit of light you know and he has this real explosion of of purpose and you know and he's singing and he's like jumping and like you know he's doing like street fighter two like moves and things but he um so you know don't we all want to know like what moves people and what people are are chasing and what their dreams are i think that's so compelling to see like what is your fantasy like what or or conversely what are you mourning like what was this thing that when you lost your whole life went into like such darkness like what was the what was the the sun what was that it's such it's very fun to to be in that

46:26Jon Bernthal:world no i mean it is fun but there is one scene in this which i would say is quite hard to watch and it's towards the end when mikey let's say unloads to a certain point you know it starts one way and it takes a very hard left turn and it's it's quite an extraordinary scene and i wondered you know where did you john think that mikey's head was at there because it feels like you know it's i think we're three years from mikey's death at this point chronologically speaking but it feels like he's very much on the downslope at this point very much i mean i i i i

46:59Ebon Moss-Bachrach:think there's a lot of clues it's been it you know it's been such an interesting exercise for me over the you know these past five years to you know again come in sort of for one week every year and you know you know you know sort of like be part of creating sort of this buoy you know in the water that that that that kind of tells his story and sometimes you see this sort of unbelievable storyteller with this great smile who's infectious and larger than life and the guy you want to be around. And sometimes you see this guy who's in so much pain, so ugly. But one thing that I'm quite sure of is that he knew where he was headed.

47:37Ebon Moss-Bachrach:And he knew there was really no getting out of it. And I'm quite certain of that. And I think that that's quite palpable kind of in this piece. And I think, you know, again, what's what's what's really interesting for me and something that we, you know, we really set out to do, and I think was really effective is, you know, he, he really articulately and kind of cogently in that bathroom describes, you know, specifically and perfectly exactly what his kind of ailment is and the way that his mind, how, you know, and really he, he, he, he, he puts it out there. He explains his hopelessness that he has this thing and it is never going to go away.

48:19Ebon Moss-Bachrach:And, you know, again, like this, this, this piece is a memory piece. This is Richie's memory. So did he actually have that conversation with this stranger? Is that the conversation that Richie wishes he had with him? Is it a conversation that, you know, that never existed at all? That maybe Mikey didn't know how to express those things, but Richie wishes that he did. You know, it leaves all these questions. You know, that's my favorite thing as an audience member and as a creator is to sort of like ask the questions and don't necessarily answer them. But I will say, I think that there was sort of this directive and this thing that we wanted to do, because when we were writing this, you know, for me, at least, it was very much like kind of in the wake of the fishes episode and Donna's big blow up.

49:06Ebon Moss-Bachrach:And, you know, there is this sort of like beautiful, understated, hereditary thing that exists in this family and this specific kind of, you know, psychology and mindset and depression and hopelessness. And, you know, we wanted it to sort of resemble that in some way, but we didn't want it to be this major kind of like physical, you know, we did not want it. We'd already seen the car go through the living room, you know, and what we did want to do is we wanted to, you know, through that kind of like scorched earth, you know, metaphor, we wanted these guys, you know, to have words with each other and say things to each other that would be seared, you know, seared into Richie forever.

49:48Ebon Moss-Bachrach:and to really dig into the wound of, man, I wish that would have been different. I wish I had never said that. I wish he had never said that. I wish I had said this. I wish I had done this. Maybe I did do something I wish I hadn't done. And I just know from losing people, like that's the thing. You constantly ask yourself those questions. And I think that that's what makes the show, you know, so deep and rich is, you know, they really dig into these wounds.

50:15Jon Bernthal:Yeah, fantastic. Well, I mean, the episode really lands. It's a great episode of The Bear. And thank you very much for giving that to us and for talking to us today. It's much appreciated.

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51:24Jon Bernthal:Right, that was Eben Moss-Bachrag and Jon Bernthal. And we move on now to this week's news. What have we got in the world of news? Boydy.

51:35Emilia Clarke:Well, it was the BAFTAs on Sunday. Oh, God, I wouldn't know. I'm just going to mention a few there weren't really I would say there weren't really many if any big surprises but there were a couple I would say in drama series was a surprise because the nominees were A Thousand Blows remember the the period drama about the boxing Stephen and the women Stephen Graham Stephen Graham etc Blue Lights which is brilliant I had a nice chat with Blue Lights people creators at the BAFTAs and told them how much we love the show which I think they're aware we're aware of as well The City is Ours. This City is Ours, which is the brilliant Liverpool set gangster drama.

52:12Emilia Clarke:It was really good. But the winner was Code of Silence. Remember Code of Silence? Yes, which, to be fair,

52:18Jon Bernthal:and a lot of our listeners were like, we should have spent more time talking about that. And we liked it, as I recall. We liked it, yeah. But people thought it was absolutely incredible and they were upset that it wasn't on our shows of the year list. Oh, really? Oh, this is the first time I've heard of it.

52:28Emilia Clarke:I must pay more attention. Yes, yes, you must. You must. It was the Rose Ailing Ellis, anyway, thing, about where she used her deafness to help the police lip-read criminals. And it was really good. But I think it was a surprise, I would say it was a surprise that it won all of those top-level dramas. I mean, you know, I'm not saying it didn't deserve to win, but I definitely think it was a surprise. A Thousand Blows has won previous awards, I think, won the RTS awards, etc. The big winner of the night was, of course, Adolescence. Of course. Which won four awards. I know four awards doesn't sound like much, but actually that's the record number of awards in one BAFTA show ever.

53:02Emilia Clarke:So it won three acting awards, and it won Best Limited Drama beating I Fault the Law, which is the Sheridan Smith show, Trespasses, which is the Irish drama on Channel 4 and What It Feels Like for a Girl.

53:13Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Oh, I do love What It Feels Like for a Girl.

53:15Emilia Clarke:Yeah, very good. International was good because that had six brilliant shows nominated. The Bear, the aforementioned The Bear, The Diplomat, our favourite, Pilot TV favourite, Puribus, another Pilot TV favourite, Friends of the Show.

53:29Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Okay, I haven't watched Puribus, but yeah, okay. Friends of the Show.

53:32Emilia Clarke:Severance, can't beat it Steph hates it everyone else loves it that's your widow's bag The White Lotus you may have heard of it and the winner The Studio

53:42Ebon Moss-Bachrach:which hasn't won

53:43Emilia Clarke:like more awards than anything in history

53:45Ebon Moss-Bachrach:quite right too

53:46Emilia Clarke:it's been it's probably like the most nominated at least show of the year and it's doing really well winning which for a show which is considered inside baseball and very industry a lot of people say about it it's fascinating and Seth Rogen was there

54:01Ebon Moss-Bachrach:It's Seth though, isn't it? He's so brilliant.

54:03Emilia Clarke:I thought his speech was brilliant. You know, because... But he was also... I went to an Apple party, by the way, the day before. Just so I didn't see James. This was a BAFTA party? No, this was a pre-BAFTA party. A pre-BAFTA party that you were invited to by Apple TV bus? This was an Apple TV lunch. Right. Brunch. A brunch. Wow, like when they do an Oscars brunch. Exactly. Did you see me there? I didn't see you there. Do you know why that is, Boyd? Why was that? Well, I'm fucking invited. What a shame. I know. Anyway, it was very glamorous. in Central... And he was there. Seth Rogen was there milling around.

54:34Emilia Clarke:There's no absolutely not care in the world. He's great though, isn't he? Yeah, he's fantastic. Adam Scott was there from Severance. Oh, Adam Scott. Yeah, he was properly star-studded. I love him in Big Little Lies. I had a nice chat with Jim Field-Smith, the showrunner of... Hijack. Hijack. We were talking about that. Anyway, that was at the party. His acceptance speech was so funny because all the way through people were talking about celebrity traitors and the legendary fart.

54:58Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Yeah.

54:59Emilia Clarke:Right? Amelda Staunton no

55:01Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Celia Imri even I know that even James says that I don't know why I've got Amelda Staunton in my head you're both great actresses

55:07Emilia Clarke:Celia Imri was in The Phantom Menace it's the only reason I know oh of course Celia Imri was there at the Royal Festival you know and the loads of jokes being made about her fart etc and Alan Carr winning etc and Seth Rowe comes to the stage she accepts him and goes what weird old show this is half the night has been jokes about that poor actress and her fart and it's like yep this is a very British unusual situation it was so funny the other funny thing was the host Greg Davis between you know when hosts of award shows when they invite the people on to read out the nominees and do that whole bit they then go to the side right they stand at the side and they let the thing play or they walk off stage or whatever what he did and it was weird I have to say he had a seat at the edge of the stage and he went and sat down and watched the proceedings of the nominees being announced and the winner from his little seat and sure enough Seth Rogen said I've never been to a show an award show before where the host has a little seat.

56:00Emilia Clarke:I was like, oh, great. He was feeling a little fragile.

56:02Ebon Moss-Bachrach:What a lovely little observation.

56:04Emilia Clarke:So then, I think he, you know, I think he suggested his head that maybe in a future episode of the studio, there'll be an award show with someone sitting down at the side. Who knows? Anyway, he was very good. I won't go into all the award winners because James will get annoyed with me and we'll take up too much time. But it was, it was a super fun night and I was particularly overjoyed to see Alan Partridge won, Steve Coogan won for his performance as Alan Partridge in How Are You? It's Alan Partridge. And he flew back from filming The White Lotus to accept his award. And then went straight back to...

56:39Emilia Clarke:And of course, he was a guest on this very show. I interviewed him, which was in the episode that went out last week. And he said at the end of that, he was jetting off to do The White Lotus. So in the middle of his hectic schedule, he managed to accept his award. And I think he was asked about the Helena Bonham Carter controversy by the press afterwards. and he said something like, I'm paraphrasing, something like it just wasn't working out. Like he was basically saying. What a gent. Yeah, a gent, a gent or something. So that's what I'll say about the BAFTAs. I won't go on too long because you weren't there and you weren't invited.

57:06Emilia Clarke:Okay. Thank you, Rob.

57:08Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Did you read that Conan's going to do the Oscars again? Yes. You did.

57:11Emilia Clarke:That's good news.

57:12Ebon Moss-Bachrach:That is good news. So 99th Oscars, I think it is, isn't it?

57:15Emilia Clarke:Yeah. Is it the last one before, because soon YouTube will be taking over. I think it is the last one

57:21Ebon Moss-Bachrach:before the YouTube takeover of the broadcast. Yeah. but yeah so he's going to do it again so obviously he did it this year and it was okay wasn't it?

57:30Emilia Clarke:I love him anyway even when a Conan O 'Brien joke doesn't quite work you're still quite happy that he went for it is my favourite about him always and he does and my hard and fast rule if I have any influence over these things is every and any awards show should be hosted by a comedian and Greg Davis proved that again he was funny at the BAFTAs and don't get an actor to do it it never works when you get an actor you have to be a full on comedian and sure enough Conan O 'Brien is one of our great almost communities. One of our great communities. The world. Oh, I see. The global community.

58:01Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Speaking as a global citizen. Right, exactly. Reacher has been renewed. Reacher has been renewed

58:06Emilia Clarke:for season five. This is the main news story for James.

58:09Ebon Moss-Bachrach:The main news story, right. Renewed for season five even though season four has not dropped.

58:13Emilia Clarke:Yes.

58:14Jon Bernthal:But it's dropping soon though, isn't it? It is dropping soon. It's relatively soon, yes. But we've got, you know, more Reacher. I don't think this was ever in doubt. Like, it's a massive hit for Prime. It is like the crown in there. it is the jewel in their dad core crown the crown in their dad core jewel whatever you want but yeah I mean I have issues with it I think he is perfect casting I think he is great I think that it needs some script polish that's my that's my I really love season 1 season 1 very few notes I think it's great I think season 2 and season 3 have both had wobbles so I'm interested to see what the deal is I never went do you know what I never went back to season 3 after the first couple episodes did you not yeah it wasn't the best but I still enjoyed it but yeah but I'm excited about this okay shockingly we're talking renewals Harry Potter has been renewed for a second season ahead of the first who saw that coming I can't who can believe it I can't believe it it's astonishing

59:07Emilia Clarke:Nick Frost and Papa Esiedu gave away an order to the BAFTAs as well as co-stars of the Harry Potter show

59:14Ebon Moss-Bachrach:who is Papa Esiedu in Harry Potter I didn't know he was in there

59:17Emilia Clarke:it's Professor Snape

59:17Ebon Moss-Bachrach:is he

59:18Emilia Clarke:how did I miss that I don't know because we talked about it on this very show and it's almost like when you're not on it you don't listen to it. It sort of feels like that,

59:26Ebon Moss-Bachrach:which is obviously not the case at all. Oh.

59:29Emilia Clarke:Nick Frost with a fully cropped head, which I guess is because he's had the Hagrid week. Yeah, okay.

59:36Jon Bernthal:You know what else is coming?

59:38Ebon Moss-Bachrach:What?

59:38Jon Bernthal:The Lord of the Rings, The Rings of the Lord. It's got a date. It's the 11th of November, season three. Boydie, how excited are you? I mean, I'm beside myself.

59:46Ebon Moss-Bachrach:I actually wrote that down. I wrote that down. November, season three, Lord of the Rings, Rings of the Lord. I have to say, I do think it's a strange name.

59:54Emilia Clarke:The Lord of the Rings, the Rings of the Lord. Yeah, it is. It's ridiculous. It is, isn't it? It's silly. There's too many authors. That's why I make fun of them. Because it's the Lord of the Thing, the Thing of the Thing. Yeah, it's unnecessary.

1:00:04Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Yeah.

1:00:05Emilia Clarke:It's a very New York Jewish comedian there.

1:00:07Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Yeah.

1:00:08Emilia Clarke:I was taking an inadvertent impression of Mel Brooks or something. The Thing, the Thing. Anyway.

1:00:13Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Have you guys seen the picture of my beloved Glenn Close?

1:00:17Emilia Clarke:Yes.

1:00:18Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Yes. I was going to say that. Were you? Okay. You stole my thunder. Sorry. No, it's fair enough. Channel 4 Drama. okay so she's going to be in Up to No Good and the Channel 4 is based on Helene Turston's short story collections and elderly ladies Up to No Good and An Elderly Lady Must Not Be Crossed six part drama and she is starring as Maud Oldcastle and the picture is great I mean

1:00:41Emilia Clarke:it was originally called Maud oh was it yeah okay looks fantastic

1:00:45Ebon Moss-Bachrach:and obviously like she's going close she can do no wrong she's a killer right

1:00:49Emilia Clarke:she's a

1:00:51Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Is she a killer? Oh my god. Yeah, I believe that's the thing.

1:00:55Emilia Clarke:Yeah.

1:00:55Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Yeah, she looks amazing.

1:00:57Emilia Clarke:Can I tell you?

1:00:59Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Yes, please.

1:01:00Emilia Clarke:I do love a chart, a ratings chart, and the American ratings, Nielsen, who do all the various ratings, let's talk them all out. They have a top 20 of you. Do you know what the biggest, the most watched show of the year so far is according to Nielsen? This is across all networks and streamers and everything. Foundation.

1:01:21Ebon Moss-Bachrach:K-pop Demon Hunters

1:01:22Emilia Clarke:no that's not a show this is a TV show TV series

1:01:26Ebon Moss-Bachrach:a TV the most watched

1:01:28Emilia Clarke:most watched TV series of the year so far according to is it globally no this is America

1:01:34Ebon Moss-Bachrach:in America yeah in America Bridgerton close

1:01:39Emilia Clarke:so Bridgerton is number four who yeah

1:01:42Ebon Moss-Bachrach:good guess

1:01:44Emilia Clarke:and this is just

1:01:45Jon Bernthal:this is so far in 2026 yes

1:01:49Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Adolescence.

1:01:50Emilia Clarke:No. That was last year. I think it's new to this year. Starting this year. Oh, sorry. And being on this year.

1:01:55Ebon Moss-Bachrach:I'm getting this all wrong. I mean, no, it's fine.

1:01:57Emilia Clarke:This is the world's most boring quiz. Boyd, tell us the answer. His and hers. Oh, my God. His and hers. Oh, what a brilliant God. I'm so angry.

1:02:06Ebon Moss-Bachrach:I didn't guess it. I'm so upset that I did not guess it.

1:02:11Jon Bernthal:Yes, because it's so thrilling and entertaining.

1:02:15Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Is it?

1:02:16Jon Bernthal:But it does star my close personal friend, Jon Bernthal.

1:02:18Emilia Clarke:It does, in a preposterous role, among many preposterous roles. It's not preposterous. I saw this headline, I was like, that is so brilliant. I was so sad. Because it does sum up. We often say, well, I know we often say it. I often think, you know, what Netflix really, really want is a limited series of the most bonkers crime idea they can possibly think of. Not bonkers could totally happen. And if you and I, Steph, try and come up with the most ridiculous scenario that we possibly can, I think we can get a commission from Netflix to do a nutty story.

1:02:47Ebon Moss-Bachrach:I've told you I'm available at all times to do it. I definitely could.

1:02:51Emilia Clarke:And just to say, the other entries in the top ten are almost all from Taylor Sheraton. So number two is Marshalls. Number three is Landman.

1:03:00Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Landman is great.

1:03:01Emilia Clarke:Billy Bob Thornton. Exactly. The Madison is at ten.

1:03:05Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Michelle Pfeiffer.

1:03:05Emilia Clarke:Yeah. I find it really interesting what's big in America at the moment. So Bridgerton is number four. Still absolutely one of Netflix's biggest shows. And you know the other show that's doing really well, which I was surprised about? is High Potential. Yes. That's very popular. Huge. It's a decent procedural, that is. Yeah. And The Pit, seven, which is good news. So yeah, it's Fallout 8. Now I'm doing the whole top ten. Fallout 8. Fallout in my mind is a flop, but it's doing very, very well. No, it's very, very popular.

1:03:34Jon Bernthal:I just don't like it. You don't like it. It makes almost no sense that I don't like it, but here we are.

1:03:38Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Is that a video game? It's a video game adaptation.

1:03:41Jon Bernthal:It's a sci-fi. It's post-apocalyptic. It's all of these things, but the tone and the retrofuturism turns me off. I don't know what to tell you.

1:03:48Emilia Clarke:Lincoln Lawyer at nine and The Maddest at ten.

1:03:50Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Lincoln Lawyer is good. Is it? Do you watch, yes it is, Widow's Bay. Yes.

1:03:56Emilia Clarke:Just call him Widow's Bay now.

1:03:57Ebon Moss-Bachrach:That's what I'm going to call him now every time. Every time he goes against me.

1:04:01Jon Bernthal:Every time I'm wrong about something.

1:04:03Emilia Clarke:Lincoln Lawyer is great. Do you know, one more heartwarming entry in the top 20 I'll mention is the American version of Ghosts. Is it 14? And it is, I heard someone say this on the radio the other day, Ghosts is one of the big triumphs of recent years because everyone was saying the American sitcom is dead, but Ghosts, ironically, and, you know, pun intended, is a massive hit in America. And it's now become one of the shows that has, you know, loads and loads of episodes every season. And, you know, it's like that was a lovely, cheap and cheerful six-parter on BBC Two, I think. Well, there's a film coming.

1:04:32Emilia Clarke:And a film on it as well, yeah.

1:04:33Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Well done, Ghosts.

1:04:34Jon Bernthal:Yeah. Well done, Ghosts. What else have we got? Ahsoka. We have a date. Well, we don't actually have a date. We have a vague date. So early 2027 is when Ahsoka Season 2 will arrive. That'll be four years after Ahsoka season one. I don't remember what Ahsoka is. Ahsoka is a Star Wars show on Disney +, starring Rosario Dawson as... They recommissioned that? Yeah, it's coming back. Clearly Boyd's excited. Wow.

1:04:57Ebon Moss-Bachrach:I don't think I knew that. Four years.

1:04:58Jon Bernthal:That's insane. So if you call yourself a Star Wars fan,

1:05:01Ebon Moss-Bachrach:for shame. Don't, don't ever doubt my Star... Don't ever, Widow's Bay, doubt my Star Wars allegiance. But yeah, why have I missed that?

1:05:11Jon Bernthal:It's hard to say. Well, various reasons, probably. Yeah. Well, anyway, it's coming back early next year. Okay. Which is quite a way. There are four live-action Fast and Furious TV series in the works at Peacock. Vin Diesel's producing.

1:05:26Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Yeah.

1:05:26Jon Bernthal:Jesus Christ.

1:05:27Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Wow, people love it. I was only watching Fast and Furious at the weekend and thinking, surely there's another film coming out any second. Well, no, I would just say people on the ground, you know, the people that are actually watching television all the time, they love all that Fast and the Furious stuff. Don't they? Four. Absolutely four.

1:05:43Emilia Clarke:I had to say bollocks.

1:05:44Ebon Moss-Bachrach:I was, but it's not bollocks. Bollocks. It's not, though, is it? It's entertaining.

1:05:49Jon Bernthal:Entertaining bollocks. Yeah. Sir Ben Kingsley. Oh, yeah, this is good.

1:05:53Emilia Clarke:Has been cast in The White Lotus? Yeah. The cast just gets better and better and better.

1:05:58Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Why do they... How... Why are they getting all these people, do you think? Because it's such a brilliant show. People want to be part of it. They just want to be part of it. This sounds like...

1:06:04Emilia Clarke:There's a number of star names playing. It sounds like the biggest cast yet of the show because we're used to having, what, four, maybe four kind of groupings who are the core elements of each White Lotus series. But this feels like it's got about 50 major cast members. Because another actor was announced alongside Ben Kingsley, right? It's possible. I don't know who it is. I haven't got that piece of information.

1:06:26Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Do you know what? When is Sugar coming, James? The Sci-Cry?

1:06:29Jon Bernthal:Oh, that's coming quite soon. It's coming quite soon. You could watch it now if you wanted to. But, you know, it's around season one. Oh, I see. I'm just saying. Oh, really? I'm not allowed to talk about it. I get in trouble when I talk about watching shows which are not available. Oh, good. So I've stopped doing that.

1:06:43Emilia Clarke:Yeah, alongside Ben Kingsley, Max Minghella from Industry. Max Minghella, who's absolutely phenomenal in Industry, is in it as well. And I think there, I'm thinking, he must have seen him in Industry because he was so good in the series. He was one of the real, like he really drove it forward by being the absolute maniac that he was in that show. So yeah, I'm excited about that.

1:07:02Ebon Moss-Bachrach:What do you mean I can watch it now? I don't know what you mean. Sorry.

1:07:04Emilia Clarke:He means on the Apple TV preview.

1:07:06Ebon Moss-Bachrach:I don't have that.

1:07:07Jon Bernthal:Oh, yeah. Oh, sorry. I forgot you were. You are one of the pogs. For the 700th time,

1:07:13Ebon Moss-Bachrach:I do not have VIP Apple privileges.

1:07:15Jon Bernthal:We're banned from talking about this. This is like a taboo subject because it upsets people. They don't like us talking about screening portals. I'm never going to mention it again. Never. Never again. Let's move on. That was the end of news. I think we're done with that. Should we have another guest? Let's have another guest because next up we have the unburnt Queen of the Andals and the Roinar and the First Men, Queen of Meereen Khaleesi, a great grassy breaker of chains and mother of dragons. or just Amelia as she prefers to be known Amelia Clark is of course the star of Ponies which we're going to talk about in a little bit and it's a 70s set Cold War spy thriller well kind of like a comedy thriller to be honest that sees her thrust into the secret services after her husband is killed in Moscow now Amelia was in about an hour ago sitting Boydie right where you are now in that chair

1:07:59Emilia Clarke:first of all anything about this this is why he doesn't say anything he doesn't get invited to the BAFTAs

1:08:05Ebon Moss-Bachrach:no he does a secret

1:08:07Emilia Clarke:special superstar interviews behind our backs. She came in to see me. I don't know what to tell you.

1:08:11Ebon Moss-Bachrach:And I was in and you didn't even say Steph, come down. We've got a meeting. Yeah, that's true.

1:08:15Jon Bernthal:It's true. He didn't want you there. He wanted his time with the media on your own. He was one-on-one. That's it. That's it. We had a lovely chat about ponies and Game of Thrones and Columbo. Yeah. And do you know what she brought up? Do you know what she brought up? Murder, she wrote. True story. Oh my God. Are you serious?

1:08:34Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Do you know what? When this is finished, you and I can have a little chat.

1:08:38Emilia Clarke:Are you calling off that re-watch? A little chat.

1:08:42Ebon Moss-Bachrach:You know what I mean, don't you? Yeah.

1:08:45Jon Bernthal:Anyway, this is me chatting to Amelia Clark about ponies and not, crucially, Gary. Well, Amelia, welcome to the show. Thank you very much. This came out quite a few months ago, didn't it, in the States?

1:08:56Ebon Moss-Bachrach:In the States it did, yes.

1:08:57Jon Bernthal:So were you thinking, I'm kind of done. My publicity's finished, my tour is finished, I'm free.

1:09:02Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Well, I did wonder. I did wonder. But no, we did all of the America Press, and then I went to New Zealand and shot a film, came back to UK Press for Ponies. Yes. So it's quite lovely. I've had a deep refresh.

1:09:17Jon Bernthal:Yeah.

1:09:17Ebon Moss-Bachrach:And so it's quite lovely now to go to talk about this again.

1:09:21Jon Bernthal:Actually, I was going to ask that. How do you ever get used to the publicity circuit of this? Because it's a very different job to your main job, right? Yeah. It's a totally different skill set. And then if you are, as you were, kind of thrust into something huge quite early on, that's a baptism by fire isn't it?

1:09:36Ebon Moss-Bachrach:It is but somehow I always felt like the press was what I was good at I could struggle in the acting they'd be like put me on camera I could have a chat yeah I like talking so it's never and it was always I like people I'm curious I want to have conversations with people so for me press never felt intimidating Right

1:10:01Jon Bernthal:I mean you're lucky because that's quite unusual I think

1:10:03Ebon Moss-Bachrach:deeply unusual I mean, like, obviously when you've got like the very serious press, it's a different thing and you get more and more used to it. But then there's so much pressure when you're filming something. When I was younger, there definitely was. You feel so much the weight of the responsibility on your shoulders. And it is serious and it is important and it is difficult. And you've been up since three and it's hard. And then you get to do press and you're like, that's just nice. We can just talk. Yeah. And you're like, you're walking into someone else's place of work. and you're sort of the novelty for a second and then you get to go home.

1:10:37Ebon Moss-Bachrach:So it's, I've never, yeah, I've always had a nice time doing press, which is very weird for an actor.

1:10:43Jon Bernthal:But also it's lovely to have the variety because I imagine doing press for something like this is a million miles away from doing something like Thrones or Star Wars or Marvel where it's a machine.

1:10:52Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Massively, yes, yes.

1:10:53Jon Bernthal:And like 30 publicists on your every word to make sure you don't say the wrong thing.

1:10:58Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Exactly, exactly, yes. But I'm also someone who does sort of say things without thinking.

1:11:03Jon Bernthal:Well, that's the best kind of interview, isn't it? Yeah.

1:11:06Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Publicist is like, too late. She's already said it. I can't stop that. But no, the nice thing about this is unlike those big juggernauts where no one person in any of those projects is bigger than the IP itself, this is something that is created by people I love. Like now I love them and now I've known them, we've worked together and they asked me to come on and be a part of the creative process. So it feels, you sort of, I don't know, it's wonderful to be able to talk about because you're like, oh my God, this thing that we made is now being spoken about and people are watching it. And how wonderful is that?

1:11:44Jon Bernthal:And it feels like you make a difference, like you're actually kind of getting people to watch it. Whereas I guess with the big machine, it's less about the people than, as you say, the IP kind of sells itself.

1:11:52Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Exactly. Whereas with this, I'm like, pop it on in the background.

1:11:55Jon Bernthal:Just keep it on me. It doesn't matter.

1:11:57Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Just play it. Just have it be streamed. but the most important thing

1:12:01Jon Bernthal:about this project is twofold one you shot in Budapest I did how long were you there for? six months six months now did at any point during those six months you make the obligatory pilgrimage to the Columbo statue no I'm sensing no oh my god what did I say does anyone know there is a bronze statue of Peter Falk scratching his head with dog life size to scale in the middle of a street just in central Budapest oh my god I have like

1:12:24Ebon Moss-Bachrach:six Columbo jackets in my wardrobe literally to the point where I'm like where's that Columbo jacket like that's how I my nan used to watch him all the time you missed a trick you could have taken a picture

1:12:33Jon Bernthal:with Peter sent it to your nan oh my god

1:12:35Ebon Moss-Bachrach:she's no longer with us well

1:12:37Jon Bernthal:she would have approved she would have approved

1:12:39Ebon Moss-Bachrach:yeah it was that and Murder She Wrote

1:12:40Jon Bernthal:oh fair enough that's what I watch it I mean it's genuinely brilliant because it's

1:12:44Ebon Moss-Bachrach:that's incredible

1:12:44Jon Bernthal:now but also the story of it is so it's on hang on it is on Mixer Falk sort of Mixer Falk street okay and Mixer Falk was a I believe a Hungarian politician and the only thing he shares with Peter Falk is his surname they're not related they have nothing to do with each other but that is the statue that is put up in the room. Wow. Yeah. So that's Budapest's Great Tourist Attraction.

1:13:05Ebon Moss-Bachrach:I'm wondering if I have seen that statue and I thought it was a Hungarian politician.

1:13:08Jon Bernthal:Maybe. With a dog, yeah. With a dog. But actually, no, it's Colombo.

1:13:12Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Really?

1:13:13Jon Bernthal:Yeah, true story. If you ever go back, check it out.

1:13:14Ebon Moss-Bachrach:I need my money back from that walking tour.

1:13:16Jon Bernthal:You definitely do. You definitely do. But look, look, look. You did a little TV show that very few people had heard of called Game of Thrones. Yes. That was about, what, seven years ago that that all finished?

1:13:26Ebon Moss-Bachrach:it was 10 years and it the last bit of it was for me the last the last the last Emmys was 2019 right so we probably wrapped in 2018 but it was 10 years of your whole life right taken up on that

1:13:43Jon Bernthal:and that's a lot of commitment which tv can be yes and obviously you've done secret invasion since then but there must have been a point where this came along and you're like this could go on and I could be doing this for a while.

1:13:55Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Yeah, no, this was ultimately an easy yes, but I took a really long time to say yes. I literally, like, no stone was uncovered. I really, and I'm a thinker, I like to, my reps probably hate it. I'm like, no, but let's talk it through one more time. Yeah. Because it just felt like such a, yeah, a big undertaking of like, okay, they're asking me to lead this TV show, this ongoing TV show. I know those hours. I know their commitment well. I'm so happy I did. Yeah, I really am. It's kind of, it's also one of those ones where you're like, do the thing that scares you the most.

1:14:36Jon Bernthal:Yeah, oh, absolutely.

1:14:37Ebon Moss-Bachrach:And this feels like that. And it is a very different thing being on people's TV screens than being in a movie. Whilst everyone can watch that movie on their TV, it's still a completely different thing. This, you know, you've just got more hours with people. So there's a kind of, which again is something I'm used to from Game of Thrones, but it just, this felt right. It just like the timing, the subject, the whole thing just felt like the right thing to do.

1:15:05Jon Bernthal:It's the parasocial thing, isn't it? Where like, I think in cinema, these people kind of, you're on the screen, you're off the screen, and it's like a fleeting moment. And with a TV show, you feel like you know these characters, you live with these characters week in and week out. So it's quite an intimate, quite intense connection you have with an audience.

1:15:20Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Yes, it is deeply, deeply. And this, you know, I've got a little more screen time and ponies than I did in Game of Thrones. So you really are seeing quite a lot of me and the relationship with Hayley. And so I feel like the audience has more access to me as a person. You know what I mean? I'm obviously performing and acting a role, but there's a lot more of me in it, which again felt scary.

1:15:45Jon Bernthal:But you got a choice, didn't you, of either of the two roles, which is unusual, I would say.

1:15:50Ebon Moss-Bachrach:I know I think they were like you can have a choice she's going for B you know like it was sort of like B's who we thought you would want to be but obviously you can have the choice and again I got along to the no stone unturned I was like maybe I'm Twyla maybe I'm Twyla and then after that tenth person was like baby girl you ain't Twyla

1:16:10Jon Bernthal:that's not you honey you weren't tempted to go fuck you I'm playing Twyla oh I did

1:16:14Ebon Moss-Bachrach:that's what made me be like you know what maybe I can and then I spent some time reading Twyla's lines so I was like for fuck's sake I mean just do it just play B and then it was like as if I could have ever played Twyla B is absolutely the one

1:16:30Jon Bernthal:Hayley didn't need to learn Russian though so no that's a big tick in the homework column big tick yeah

1:16:37Ebon Moss-Bachrach:no she was very she was always like wow how'd you do it I'm like I know I should have played Twyla yeah she got away with not speaking she had one line

1:16:47Jon Bernthal:okay yeah but you're not just speaking Russian Like, you are passing for Russian to the KGB. Yes. So, honestly, from an accent point of view, that's a lot of pressure.

1:16:57Ebon Moss-Bachrach:It was. Well, it also was just a bit of a head-scratcher because you're, you know, Amelia playing an American, playing a Russian, playing a Russian, you know what I mean? Yeah. Amelia playing a character that speaks Russian that then goes on to pretend to be, it gets confusing.

1:17:18Jon Bernthal:Yeah, I can imagine. Yeah. But I mean, when you're doing that, how much of it do you actually absorb? Could you have a conversation, no matter how surface level, in Russian?

1:17:26Ebon Moss-Bachrach:No.

1:17:26Jon Bernthal:Not at all?

1:17:27Ebon Moss-Bachrach:No. I would understand more than I ever had before doing this job, before it would be words, sounds. Yeah. And now I can recognize, you know, walking around London, I'm like, oh, they're Russian. Oh, yeah. I think I got the fourth word. Interesting. You know, I'm watching the Americans and I'm like, oh, yeah. I get it. I know what you're saying. And that can kind of bring it all back. And it seemed like before we did ADR for this, which is when you... How do I explain ADR? When you go and if any words need to be re-recorded for whatever reason... Which is a lot, let's be honest. It's often quite a lot.

1:18:04Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Season one of Game of Thrones, the whole thing. Literally the whole thing. And so when I'm doing that and I'm presented back with the lines, it comes back just without even thinking. But me sitting here talking to you and you're asking me to speak Russian, I can't.

1:18:21Jon Bernthal:Yeah, I can't lapse into Russian, but if I could, I would now, just to test you, obviously, by...

1:18:25Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Yes, yes.

1:18:26Jon Bernthal:So if you had to have a conversation in Russian or High Valerian, you'd lean towards Russian?

1:18:32Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Oh, well, I think I made up High Valerian.

1:18:34Jon Bernthal:I mean, you can get away with it, can't you?

1:18:36Ebon Moss-Bachrach:I didn't make up High... I didn't make up High Valerian. Yeah, definitely.

1:18:41Jon Bernthal:Yeah. Do you still remember it all? Is it like the Russian? Is it seared into your brain?

1:18:45Ebon Moss-Bachrach:There's, again, if you were to sit me in front of myself which would take a lot I would talk along with it yeah

1:18:53Jon Bernthal:so do you never watch your stuff then?

1:18:55Ebon Moss-Bachrach:I watch whatever I do

1:18:57Jon Bernthal:once really? just once never again one time

1:19:00Ebon Moss-Bachrach:unless I have to like when we did Star Wars we had like a bunch of premieres and at Cannes you've got to sit there

1:19:05Jon Bernthal:oh you can't just go off and get coffee no you've got to sit there

1:19:08Ebon Moss-Bachrach:there's a camera on your face right and I was very tired and I had seen it four times and I was getting to the point where I was like don't fall asleep on camera don't fall asleep on camera

1:19:17Jon Bernthal:that's going to look really bad yeah no that's entirely fair

1:19:20Ebon Moss-Bachrach:but no I don't see the need to watch myself more than once okay

1:19:26Jon Bernthal:okay interesting once make sure it's okay move on

1:19:28Ebon Moss-Bachrach:exactly yeah got it

1:19:29Jon Bernthal:you mentioned the Americans great show so good thematically similar to this totally worlds apart

1:19:35Ebon Moss-Bachrach:totally different

1:19:35Jon Bernthal:which I find really interesting because I love the the era setting of that show and I love the there's something about kind of Cold War espionage it's so juicy isn't it And it feels to me like, it's almost like fantasy because it feels so unreal to us now.

1:19:49Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Exactly, yes.

1:19:50Jon Bernthal:But what I like about this is, A, we're in the heart of it. We're in Moscow, KGB are everywhere. But also, it's the tonality of it because it, I don't, I hate labeling things, but I wouldn't describe it as a comedy. No. But it's really fucking funny.

1:20:01Ebon Moss-Bachrach:But it's lighter. Yeah. And The Americans is not a comedy. There is no funnies in that. But this really has, it's just, it's just kind of, to my mind the most enjoyable type of storytelling because it's like it's like when you think about the movies of the 2000s and they're like capital M movies you know and they have everything in them you're laughing and then you're crying and then you feel something and then you're oh and it's just there's just so much in it and I feel like Ponies is the TV version of that

1:20:39Jon Bernthal:100 % I'm so glad you agree

1:20:41Ebon Moss-Bachrach:well I bore people

1:20:42Jon Bernthal:rigid about this all the time because I don't enjoy comedy for comedy's sake because I find comedy in isolation artificial and I can't accept it.

1:20:49Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Unless I'm watching a sketch show or a stand-up comedian.

1:20:50Jon Bernthal:Yeah, which is slightly different. But like a comedy story doesn't feel real to me. Whereas if you look at all the great comedies of the 80s, they were all dramatic at their core, but really, really funny with it. Yes. A Fish Called Wonder. Absolutely. Everything Eddie Murphy did prior to the comedy film. Exactly. Yes. Less than about that, the better. But this really has that. And I kind of was curious how you go about playing that because the core of this is, I guess, not to play comedy.

1:21:12Ebon Moss-Bachrach:it's to play it straight yes and let the comedy love there is nothing more delicious as an actor than playing it straight yeah when you know it ain't straight yeah and especially when hayley and i have what we naturally have like i think hayley and i in life are doing this yeah but you serve it up a little more for the for the for the camera and like just you're it you're in internally I'm like oh I just gotta keep this straight and it's gonna pay off so good and you sort of know it and it's just it's just the funnest the funnest thing to play

1:21:49Jon Bernthal:does the comedy like can you see it on the page or do you feel it in the room or because sometimes comedy doesn't come back until the edit you know like it depends when

1:21:56Ebon Moss-Bachrach:well Susanna Fogel and David Iserson the show owners and creators and writers of the show Susanna directed the first couple of episodes the first episode and the last episode they are funny

1:22:05Jon Bernthal:they're very funny well they've done they've done spy comedy before Yes, they have indeed.

1:22:09Ebon Moss-Bachrach:And they have a dry sense of humour that's closer to a British sense of humour. And there's... Again, it was written in a way that I was like, I know this. I'm familiar with this. This is something that I understand. Comedy's all in timing.

1:22:26Jon Bernthal:Yeah.

1:22:27Ebon Moss-Bachrach:And if you nail that timing, then you've got it. And we were part of a very funny... In life, the cast were laughing more than anything else. See, it's interesting. We cracked each other up.

1:22:37Jon Bernthal:because that comes across because Adrian Lester who I love

1:22:40Ebon Moss-Bachrach:oh don't we love him and that role we called him Daddy Dane he was the daddy of the cast

1:22:44Jon Bernthal:but he again he's absolutely deadpan he plays it straight more than anyone

1:22:50Ebon Moss-Bachrach:and we literally I did everything to try and crack that man everything we would try it was like that's why we called him Daddy Dane because he was the dad being like deadly serious being like you arseholes I have five pages of dialogue that's all like spiel that I have to get out and you lot are trying to crack me up and he just would never corpse. It took it, yeah. If you ever did manage to corpse him, then you'd feel really bad, but it would be really, really funny.

1:23:13Jon Bernthal:But it's lovely when you can have that, I guess, because you were cast, I mean, because you have the choice of roles a fair bit before Hayley.

1:23:18Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Yes.

1:23:19Jon Bernthal:Presumably her casting must have been, if not stressful, a little bit make or break, because I feel like that buddy is the core of the whole show. Absolutely.

1:23:27Ebon Moss-Bachrach:No, no, no, we felt that. And we had this list of people. I'm sorry to say, yes, Hollywood, there's a list, there's a few lists. Let's see who's on them. and Hayley we were thinking about people and different people and then that was that one Zoom call that we all had as creatives and then I think it was I think someone sent it over our group text and it was like absolutely it was almost like a light bulb came up over everyone's head divine into it like of course there is no one else that can play this part and so from that moment on I just I'm very intuitive as a person and my guts just know immediately and that was one where I was like absolutely the only person I want to work with.

1:24:06Jon Bernthal:We're going to be friends. Done. Yeah. Sold.

1:24:09Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Yeah. I just knew she was perfect for it. And it, yeah, so it kind of, it felt quite kismity.

1:24:15Jon Bernthal:I'm curious, like, your relationship with Bea and how it kind of evolved as you did the show. Because the nature of, I guess, a film is you kind of do your prep, you know your character, you make your film.

1:24:25Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Yeah.

1:24:25Jon Bernthal:When you do a TV show, because it's so long form, I imagine your relationship with that character kind of evolves as the story plays out. And like, how you feel about them when you sit down to shoot the first scene is probably very different to when you wrap the season. And how did your kind of journey with her change during that?

1:24:39Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Well, it really did. She was incredibly naive and innocent and blinkered, I would argue, because she hadn't had a huge life experience. And as these experiences happened that were big and dark, it was galvanizing from a confidence point of view. So I was joining her there in that, like, feeling more confident speaking Russian, feeling more confident doing this show. And so that definitely changed. And then I like where it's been left. No spoilers, obviously. But I like where it is at the end of the show, because I think it allows for a continuation of that energy, which then I get to do something I don't think I've done before, which I'm quite excited about.

1:25:24Ebon Moss-Bachrach:so that feels very good but really it's just such a beautifully crafted plot like you know we were talking about like Capital M movies and the whole I think one of the biggest reasons why ponies work so well is that they've cast very well

1:25:42Jon Bernthal:of course naturally very very well

1:25:45Ebon Moss-Bachrach:but the plot the journey that they they you know they drew a train journey and they were like hey get on board and you just follow you it's just inevitable where it sort of ends up going and allows for all of these different humorous moments and sad moments and emotional moments but the core of the truth that it gets to is kind of profound and really relatable and the fact that that core truth is happening ultimately between two women in a female friendship that feels juicy and new

1:26:17Jon Bernthal:yeah do you like when you when you leave these characters behind obviously you say goodbye to you must miss them. But do you carry any of these characters with you? And does your relationship with them change in retrospect? Obviously, Daenerys Targaryen being an example. But your relationship with that character, looking back on it however many years later, must be very different to when you were in the thick of it. Yeah, yeah. You know, dragons.

1:26:37Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Absolutely, incredibly different. I mean, Game of Thrones lives in its own universe for me.

1:26:41Jon Bernthal:Yeah.

1:26:41Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Like, there's Game of Thrones and there's every other joke I've ever done. And they're very different things. Yeah. And then if you do a play, that is where I find it difficult to to leave the character like when i did the seagull i literally mentally had to like

1:26:56Jon Bernthal:put her in bed and walk away covid helped with that at one point indeed yes exactly exactly like

1:27:02Ebon Moss-Bachrach:that was a character that just i mean when you're doing that full play every single night for 85 shows that's a lot whereas when you're doing tv and film you're filming at a sequence there's sometimes it's a short shoot sometimes it's a long shoot but frustratingly so much of what i do it does echo where you are in your life because that's what you're bringing out what you're relating to that's what you're attaching yourself to that's like where you're in order to and your ultimate objectives are coming from from an acting point of view because that's what you're experiencing in your life so it speaks to so when i look back at these characters i'm looking back at younger me so there's just you just got to give her some grace and kind of i don't know remember fondly but game of thrones that was it's impossible to it's it's impossible to not see my experience on game to not feel like my experience on game of thrones as one huge thing of course it sort of it comes as the whole the whole experience and still i would argue that right now, that whole experience is still too big for me to see.

1:28:10Jon Bernthal:And you only watched it once.

1:28:11Ebon Moss-Bachrach:And I only watched it once. And I won't watch it again.

1:28:15Jon Bernthal:That's it, you're done. Or maybe when I'm like 90.

1:28:16Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Yeah, you'll revisit it. Let's watch Game of Thrones, you know. Just like that.

1:28:21Jon Bernthal:Incredible. Well, I've got to let you go in a second, but one thing I did want to ask you is this. Obviously, you learned Russian for this. That's one for the CV. Job done. Brilliant. Hi, Valerian. You got that as well. Yes. What is the most practically useful thing? Because I feel like this, you probably picked up a bit of spycraft. Maybe you'll use that. Maybe you won't. is there anything you've learned practically that actually you're really glad you now have in your arsenal? As or ponies? As anything. Like, what is it that you've, for a role, what skill have you gained?

1:28:45Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Well, I thought I could ride a horse, but I can't.

1:28:47Jon Bernthal:Really?

1:28:48Ebon Moss-Bachrach:I really can't. Film horses are not real horses. The Dothraki would be furious. Yeah, they would be mad. They would be super mad. But I gave them dragons.

1:28:54Jon Bernthal:That is true. That was an upgrade.

1:28:58Ebon Moss-Bachrach:There's some, I don't know, I did a lot of jobs using guns and I don't like that I have that knowledge in my head.

1:29:04Jon Bernthal:So you can feel strip an M16?

1:29:06Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Yeah, pretty much. Like, for real. Or Sarah Connor. There you go, exactly. So that kind of scares me that I know how to do that, but that is genuinely a skill. Oh, man, honestly, it's just... The skills that you really get from filming is being around that many people, keeping a good attitude, and getting good at your acting, and getting good at... The thing that I feel is genuinely most useful in my life at this point having done all of these different jobs is truly understanding what a camera is saying and when and what how someone is crafting a piece of work judging by what angles we're using and where and where we are like really understanding that that's kind of i'm at that point now where i'm like that's fascinating and useful and good and you can sort of just feel it so yeah getting better getting better at my actual job i mean that's a useful thing

1:30:03Jon Bernthal:to take away, right?

1:30:04Ebon Moss-Bachrach:It's something to take away, yeah. And I just wish I knew how to actually write a book.

1:30:07Jon Bernthal:You may never need to jump out of a window and land into a bin, but actually you will need to continue acting.

1:30:12Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Exactly, exactly. Fantastic.

1:30:13Jon Bernthal:Well, Amelia, thank you very much for joining us.

1:30:15Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Thank you. Thanks so much.

1:30:17Jon Bernthal:That was Amelia Clark. And it is time now for this week's reviews. And we won't begin, I don't think, with ponies. Let's begin with falling on Channel 4, which sees Papa Essie to challenge Andrew Scott for the title of Hot Priest as a sexy, so sexy, man of the cloth who falls unexpectedly in love with Kili Ho's Hot Nun. This is written by Jack Thorne, friend of the pod, Jack Thorne, who, as we know, has been on the podcast literally hundreds of times. Isn't that right, Boydie? Yeah. And I think this is, I want to say, friend of the pod, I think this is his first romance that he's done. I think so.

1:30:51Jon Bernthal:Yeah. Okay, Boydie, you are our very own man of the cloth. So,

1:30:55Emilia Clarke:did you fall for this? I did fall for this, spoiler alert, going early in answering your question, and not just stealing with the pardon. This is just, I mean, fresh from his triumphing babies, Papa SCA do. Oh, don't. Can do no wrong. What an incredible... Can we just say, is he ever not brilliant?

1:31:15Jon Bernthal:Like, literally in anything. No.

1:31:17Ebon Moss-Bachrach:He is honestly, he's fast becoming my favourite actor. I know, but I hate him a little bit

1:31:22Jon Bernthal:because he's so good. Oh, he's... And it's just, it's annoying. Oh, do you know what's really annoying?

1:31:26Ebon Moss-Bachrach:He's so good. And in this, sorry to take over slightly, he's doing sign language. I know, I know.

1:31:32Jon Bernthal:He just casually breaks out the BSL.

1:31:34Ebon Moss-Bachrach:The emotional depths that this man can get to. Anyway, carry on, boy.

1:31:37Jon Bernthal:Also, I'm just going to ask this question. He may be the hottest priest. Of course. The hottest priest. It's a big fact. Sorry, Andrew Scott. He's the hottest priest.

1:31:46Emilia Clarke:I would never say that fully, but he's definitely a strong contender with Andrew Scott.

1:31:51Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Carry on, boy. Slime dunk.

1:31:53Emilia Clarke:Absolutely slime dunk, yeah. So, Jack Thorne of Adolescence, Lord of the Flies, Toxic Town, His Dark Materials, etc. Very busy man. one of our busiest TV scriptwriters because he's so good and so in demand but this feels like a really different kind of show for him and it is as you say there's even like a meet cute because Papa Esiedu's character he was a man of the cloth he gets help from Kili Hawes who is a nun hot nun exactly and part of me wonders whether you interviewed Jack Thorne didn't you but did you ask him much about this show no we didn't talk about falling at all right that's interesting yeah because brilliant because I'm a great journalist yeah I mean incredible it's almost like you didn't know it was coming up anyway it feels like they're two such brilliant actors and these are two such fantastic roles and you feel even though writers very rarely do this which is right for specific actors but it feels so much like they have because these are two blockbusters she's one of the great you know actresses of our time and she was brilliant in The Assassin probably the most recent thing right which is season two I think being filmed soon and he's fantastic in everything as we've established so but they're absolutely fantastic together and there's an instant, you get that instant frisson of excitement between them.

1:33:07Emilia Clarke:And of course, she being a nun in the middle of this abbess, or abbess, with an abbess above her,

1:33:15Ebon Moss-Bachrach:who is judging

1:33:16Emilia Clarke:all the other sisters if they do anything. We should say Roman Catholic. Yeah, proper Roman Catholic. So she's not allowed to have any kind of canoodling of any kind with anyone. Hot priest or not. Hot priest or not. He arrives and he's immediately obviously sexy guy and she cooks him some scrambled eggs and it all goes off from there really.

1:33:37Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Yeah, celibacy out the window.

1:33:38Jon Bernthal:Yeah, scrambled eggs, oh my God, delicious. There is literally a bit where she says, so here's my cabbage. It's all a little bit carry on, I love it.

1:33:47Emilia Clarke:But what it feels like, because it's Jack Thorne and he's so brilliant, the dialogue is so fantastic. It's like there is subtext into everything that's going on. It feels like immediately love or lust at first sight more. for these heavily religious people. And it's an exploration of what happens when heavily religious people fall in love just like that. Or at least from her side to start with, she absolutely kind of is open about her feelings. I'm trying to spoil it now. Whereas he's slightly, I think he's slightly more taken aback by the whole idea initially. And this is going to play out over six episodes, by the way.

1:34:20Emilia Clarke:And you're kind of wondering how they're going to negotiate if they really are. If they really are, is this kind of spark between them? What is going to happen from there? It's such a fantastic, it's the simplest of ideas. isn't it what would happen if if this kind of thing happened to highly religious people but it's just fascinating from the off and it's so it's it it so feels so real it feels authentic every step of the way in romantic dramas or comedies one of my kind of criticisms of them is is that not only are they off and formulaic but they kind of have to be you know it's like boy meets girl whoever boy meets boy whatever way it is they put off you throw obstacles in their way and in the end you have to have the happy ending of them getting together that's just the way it works and within that there are so many contrivances often within the this particular genre of of a romance that it kind of makes it feel unreal for me and i always think oh it's too contrived you can tell the machinations of the writer because this is so skillfully put together and written by jack and so brilliantly performed by the by the two main main uh roles you just go along with all the different twists and turns that this relationship takes.

1:35:27Emilia Clarke:It's fantastic. I've given it five stars in Heat magazine. That's how much. A review or a preview? It's a review. We're allowed to review it, I believe. If I've spoken in the embargo, they haven't told me. So I think it's fantastic. They're both absolutely brilliant in it. Love the chemistry between them. It's phenomenal.

1:35:43Jon Bernthal:Can we have more of that kind of almost like Victorian-like ecclesiastical flirting where it's like, would you like to take a look at my flower beds? You know what I mean?

1:35:51Ebon Moss-Bachrach:You know what? This is a beautifully stripped back romantic story. And it's, I mean, the clue is in the title. It's kind of this slow burn of lust and love between these two people is so incredible to watch. What I think Jack Thorne, I love that Jack Thorne does, and we saw it so much in Lord of the Flies, is he's this great architect of light. He uses light so well to convey emotions, accompanying emotions. Like, there's scenes where she's looking out into the fields, you know, of this nunnery. And just even the way that he uses the light coming into the nunnery and the way that the birds saw.

1:36:36Emilia Clarke:Well, sorry to interrupt, but all of that is down to the director. It's Peter Hoare, who is the genius director. Been on this podcast. Been on this podcast, who directed The Last of Us, best episode. Right. And It's a Sin. And the next Russell T. Davis show, tiptoe coming soon which will be on this podcast he's the director and I think he is a lot of that he's the artist okay

1:36:52Ebon Moss-Bachrach:where the credit's due but obviously Jack Thorne amazing the writing is incredible I love that I love you know I don't think it's a spoiler no I don't want to say that because that might be a spoiler but yeah just how you how the feelings within her develop this kind of quiet storm and how she's dealing with it she goes to confession and it and it takes her by surprise but she's so devout in she doesn't want to further because she needs guidance. She doesn't know what to do with these feelings. And as she says, she's never felt like this about anyone before. And the way she confesses how she feels is also just, it's so, the vulnerability is, it's so well written.

1:37:32Ebon Moss-Bachrach:It's just gorgeous. But yeah, listen, if there was anyone in the world that would make you want to run off and join the church, it is Papa S.E.A. do. Hang on, run off and join the church?

1:37:45Jon Bernthal:I think you mean the opposite.

1:37:48Emilia Clarke:Run away and leave the church. Yes. What I mean is like, join the church so you can see him

1:37:53Ebon Moss-Bachrach:and then leave the church with him because, God, he's so delicious in this role, isn't he? He's no Gary Neville. He's no Gary Neville. He absolutely isn't. But he's, yeah, the fact that he, I love the fact that there's sign language in this show as well. He's with his sister-in-law in the house that he lives in. and his eyes, there's something about the way that he eye acts, which I know is going to sound strange.

1:38:18Emilia Clarke:No, I mentioned that in my opinion. Do you? Yeah, there's some brilliant facial expression reacting from just fantastic. The nuances of those reaction shots are brilliant.

1:38:27Ebon Moss-Bachrach:The nuances of those scenes are so, it's so special. I really, really love this. It was beautiful, and I really enjoyed the pacing. After watching, like we watched Man on Fire, and we did that for a Pilot Plus spoiler, and I watched a few fast-paced things, with the disappointment of Ted Lasso's tonal shift. This was lovely. It was just exactly what I needed. It felt relaxing. It felt you could really like dig into it. And yeah, I like, I love the fact, you know, the talk of faith in it is really interesting and how you kind of understand how she got into becoming a nun and how she's been a nun for 20 years and there's another, she's got a postulant and there's a bit of an issue where the postulant gets a phone and how she deals with that.

1:39:11Jon Bernthal:Postulant, like a training wheels none. Sorry, a training wheels none.

1:39:14Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Yeah, a training wheels none. Yeah, I have no notes of this. I thought it was wonderful. And as you said, the casting is just exceptional. Everyone in it's great. But it's really beautiful. Slow paced, deliberately slow paced because obviously it is six episodes. But you will fall in love with falling.

1:39:32Jon Bernthal:This, on the face of it, I would say, is not a show that I would have necessarily added to my watch. No spaceships. Right. Not enough multiversal action, fewer wormholes. You see what I'm saying?

1:39:46Emilia Clarke:JLS aren't in it.

1:39:46Jon Bernthal:JLS are not in it at all. There's a lot here that I just wouldn't really necessarily gravitate to. Now, obviously, you're going to say, hey, James, you're in the pocket of Big Thorn because you spoke to me the other week. I think it's safe. If I did not enjoy it, I would just say so. But I have a kind of soppy streak, so I have a real thing for a really well-told...

1:40:04Ebon Moss-Bachrach:You're massively soppy. Thank you, Steph.

1:40:06Jon Bernthal:It is true. And I love a really well-told romance that you can really sink your teeth into. And this is 100 % that. And as someone with a theology degree, I find all the ecclesiastical trappings quite exciting.

1:40:19Emilia Clarke:Can I just say it's one of my favourite things you've ever seen? As someone with a theology degree.

1:40:24Jon Bernthal:Well, what I'm saying is I spend a lot of time studying this kind of area, so I'm very familiar with all the bits and bobs of it. And I find something quite comforting about it, even as a raging atheist. But I really enjoy all of that. and there's something about this that just really, even for the introduction of Puppet Etiode's character where he's smoking a cigarette, leaning against his car and he makes this kind of cheeky joke comment to the RAC man who turns out genuinely funny. Like he has this kind of wry self-deprecating but knowingly cool priest thing going on. He's not a fusty priest.

1:40:55Jon Bernthal:He's clearly a young, hip, cool priest. Sexy priest. Sexy priest, a very sexy priest. And so you immediately warm to him. He's immediately funny. He's incredibly charming and disarming. And then Kitty Hall's nun, Anna, has this really, you know, almost like, again, quite disarming, almost like awkward, bumbling, terribly British, like apologetic, but also playful and cheeky and a little bit flirty, but in a very chaste way. You know, not just innuendos about flowerbeds and cabbages, but there's just something about it where you can feel the frisson in the air, as you said, you can feel the sexual tension.

1:41:33Jon Bernthal:and you can see how it fundamentally just throws both of them because I have no idea what to happen because people talk about oh the Thunderbolt love of her like Thunderbolts are a thing they're rare but they are a thing and the fact that they're both just smitten from the minute he sort of grabs her hand and it's just yeah it really really had me and I only had time to watch the first episode this morning but I'm definitely going to watch the rest of these because it's great James do you know what you love love? I do yes it is true when it's well told. Please never say that again.

1:42:04Ebon Moss-Bachrach:He loves love.

1:42:05Jon Bernthal:Also very well cast, I will say. I will say.

1:42:07Emilia Clarke:I was brilliantly cast.

1:42:08Jon Bernthal:I think Papa in particular is inspired.

1:42:10Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Have we had Papa on?

1:42:11Jon Bernthal:We've never had him on the podcast. What? Are you sure about that? If you're listening and I know you are. Are you sure about that? I think I... He may have been on thousands of times, much like Jack Thorne. It's hard to say. No, we may have had him on. I have not spoken to him.

1:42:24Emilia Clarke:No, I think I have. I'm pretty sure I have.

1:42:27Jon Bernthal:We didn't have him on for... Series one of them? The Lazarus Project. No, I don't think... Ah, did we? It's hard to... We had Joe on for Lazarus. Definitely.

1:42:35Ebon Moss-Bachrach:As much as this is enjoyable. This is on air. We don't know.

1:42:39Jon Bernthal:Maybe we have, maybe we haven't. Anyway, Papa, if you're listening, come in. Come in. Let's talk Catholicism and frocks. Let's talk Catholicism. Let's talk Catholicism and hot nuns. Yeah, let's do that. Falling then, Channel 4.

1:42:53Emilia Clarke:Oh, Channel 4, Tuesday, the 19th of May, 2026, 9pm. 9pm. A habit to get into, we're saying. Oh dear.

1:43:01Jon Bernthal:There we go. Okay, next up, we have PONIES, which is an acronym for People of No Interest. And this one, which you've already heard about, to be fair, from Emilia Clarke, so you don't really need to hear about it again, but it debuted on Peacock in the US in January. Only just made it to these shores. But as we said, it's got Emilia Clarke, it's got Hayley Lou Richardson in it, it's got Adrian Lester in it, as neophyte spies in Cold War Moscow. Steph, you strike me as someone who wanted her parents to buy her a pony. So, will this suffice? Wow, random. That's all I've got.

1:43:38Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Right. This, I kind of started and I was like, oh, I'm not sure whether I'm going to like this. This seems a bit confusing. This whole concept seems a bit strange. I don't know whether I'm going to like it. And it started and it was all a bit desaturated and I was like, oh, I don't know about this.

1:43:53Emilia Clarke:You don't like desaturation?

1:43:55Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Can I tell you something about desaturization? Please do.

1:43:58Emilia Clarke:I mean, I can't wait. Colour me in cheese.

1:44:01Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Nice. Right. When things are desaturated, right, now don't do that thing where you just go, oh, Steph, you're just so silly. It makes me want to rub my eyes.

1:44:10Jon Bernthal:What, like they're not working properly?

1:44:12Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Just because it just, yeah, it doesn't. That's brilliant. Do you know what I mean? Does that make any sense to you?

1:44:17Jon Bernthal:Why are colours not working properly? Yes.

1:44:20Ebon Moss-Bachrach:It doesn't, it makes me really want to, I don't, I don't, I don't really enjoy it. I like, I don't know, vivid. I like vivid colours. I know. It's not that I can't appreciate it.

1:44:31Emilia Clarke:So a desaturated post-apocalyptic thing would be your eye in hell. Oh, God, that'd be terrible.

1:44:36Ebon Moss-Bachrach:That's why I don't like June. Anyway, right. So, but the story is fantastic. So you've got these two women that are brought together. Their husbands are in the CIA, and they're brought together because, is it a spoiler to say what happens to their husbands?

1:44:50Jon Bernthal:No, I think it's the setup of the show. So do I.

1:44:52Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Okay. So their husbands die, and they're brought... Spoiler. What? Carry on. Is it a spoiler? No, no, you're all good.

1:44:59Emilia Clarke:He's taking the fish.

1:45:01Ebon Moss-Bachrach:This is what Jacob was talking about.

1:45:04Emilia Clarke:Psychopathy of James.

1:45:06Ebon Moss-Bachrach:They're brought together, James, Widow's Bay. They're brought together because their husbands have died and they want to find out what the hell happened. So Hayley Lee Richardson's character, Twilla Hasbeck, and Emilia Clarke's character, Emilia Clarke's character, oh, she's a bit like you, actually, isn't she? She's like super clever. Yeah. She's like super clever. She speaks Russian. She knows everything. She's a little bit. That's why they bonded. I mean, okay. You know, she knows loads of stuff. Yeah, and Hayley Richardson's character is a bit like me. She's like curly hair, not quite sure, but she'll give it a go.

1:45:45Jon Bernthal:I think she's got, she's rather more aggressive, I would say, than you are, Steph. Yeah, she probably is. Like you don't generally call people bitches quite as often to their face. No, I never do. But you know.

1:45:55Ebon Moss-Bachrach:But anyway, they sort of team up and they are given a mission. And it's how they adapt to their new life as integral to finding out what happened to their husbands. Basically, the CSI don't... The CSI?

1:46:10Jon Bernthal:The CSI? Not to be confused with JLS, which is, of course, completely different.

1:46:15Ebon Moss-Bachrach:The CIA don't know the real, the true reason why they want to be part of it. They're like, oh, no, we can be really helpful. we know so yeah I mean it's a bit of a caper isn't it would you say is that fair to say yeah yeah I think so yeah it's a bit of a caper and I really enjoyed the scenes of Russia I don't know is it

1:46:34Emilia Clarke:scenes of Russia

1:46:35Ebon Moss-Bachrach:I really I went to Russia as part of my yeah I was part of my master's degree James oh right I see as part of my master's degree what's your master's degree in you've asked me this is publishing I've got a degree in psychology and a master's in publishing why did you turn to Russia though Well, I tell you what, we were sent to Russia, really interestingly, to go and meet the editor of Russian Vogue.

1:46:58Jon Bernthal:That is interesting.

1:46:59Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Right, no, and then we were also supposed to go to Forbes magazine, and we couldn't go because something happened, and then there was later a bit of a possible murder. Anyway, can't go to that. What? Someone was murdered? What, you were tracked down by the FFB? Yeah, in Russia, it was fantastic, but I really enjoyed going to Russia.

1:47:18Emilia Clarke:Forget ponies, you should be doing your own Russia set. Crime, thriller, mysteries, espionage.

1:47:24Ebon Moss-Bachrach:And then, yeah, we went to St. Petersburg as one of them. So I love all the Russian vista, it's beautiful. Really, really nice. Yeah, Emilia Clarke with Hayley Richardson, they are fantastic together. They just work. They just work as a duo. You know, the comedic bits work, the aggressive bits work, everything in this, I think, works and it's really incredibly enjoyable. it's not I wouldn't say for me it's a must watch it's just something that I enjoyed whilst watching it and I would watch it again but it's not something I absolutely have to watch but I do think Emilia Clarke is fantastic in it yeah

1:48:00Emilia Clarke:they're both really good I think it's all about the tone of this of this show isn't it because it's it's quite jaunty it's kind of taking but subtly jaunty yeah

1:48:11Jon Bernthal:it's not it's not it's not heavy air quotes comedy no no no no it's just very funny no

1:48:17Emilia Clarke:Yeah.

1:48:18Jon Bernthal:Yeah.

1:48:19Emilia Clarke:Is it very funny? I'm going to say very.

1:48:21Jon Bernthal:Well, the thing is, this is very much my sense of humour where it's drama, but it's loads of deadpan dry humour in there, which I find very funny. Whereas, you know, I have the whole thing about the silly comedy. Silly comedy. Well, I'm surprised.

1:48:34Emilia Clarke:Yeah, very. I'm not sure I'd say very funny. Well, it made me laugh. Okay, well, I think it was funny.

1:48:38Ebon Moss-Bachrach:I think you're compromised.

1:48:40Emilia Clarke:You think? Yeah, because you're in the pocket of Big Clark. Apparently, they're practically the same person.

1:48:44Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Well, no, he is a bit like that. You know, he's a little bit,

1:48:47Emilia Clarke:The director's like, just do more James.

1:48:50Ebon Moss-Bachrach:So in that way that you're just very smart.

1:48:53Jon Bernthal:Thank you very much for that.

1:48:54Emilia Clarke:Try to be a compliment. Compliment, yes. Yeah, I don't see myself as a B. But I like the tone. I think it worked very well. And I think, you know, the reason why you liked it so much, James, is because, yeah, it manages to be funny and humorous. It gets comedy out of the situation while maintaining an authenticity. Adrian Leicester in particular is very funny he's good I mean he's great in everything that he's in isn't he

1:49:21Ebon Moss-Bachrach:I'm really taking issue with the very funny really? I'm really taking issue oh she's coming for me

1:49:26Emilia Clarke:that's it

1:49:27Ebon Moss-Bachrach:oh no I agree with you

1:49:28Jon Bernthal:it's not very funny she's just like right you didn't even smile during Widow's Bay but this has you on the floor it isn't very funny

1:49:34Ebon Moss-Bachrach:I think that's misleading I misspoke

1:49:36Jon Bernthal:I would say it is consistently amusing is that better?

1:49:40Emilia Clarke:it's gone down to amusing consistently amusing I would agree with that For me, that's high praise. It's fairly amusing. Okay. But it's a difficult trick to pull off because you're still dealing with death, right? They're dealing with the deaths of their husbands. And, you know, one of them was more into her husband than the other, sure. But, you know, it manages to make the interactions convincing and their response to this apparent tragedy convincing.

1:50:08Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Yeah, I mean, one of them's a proper grieving widow. The other one really kind of couldn't give a shit.

1:50:12Emilia Clarke:No, exactly. because we see some of the fractious relationship in the early scenes in the show. So it does all that really well. And you're right, the whole milieu of Russia in this period also feels very real as well. And what I liked about it, the whole premise in a way is all of these shows normally, you know, the John le Carre stories, you know, we had the Secret Service recently on ITV, which you two didn't like. But that was an example, you know, of a story with a woman at the centre of it trying to see what's going on. This is with two women at the centre of the story trying to work out what's going on and trying to get to the bottom of various mysterious elements that they're thinking they're uncovering.

1:50:51Emilia Clarke:And I thought that as a premise worked very well, particularly when you've got these two. Yeah, it's these two, isn't it? Yeah, these two are really, really good together. So I really enjoyed it. But do you know what? I got to the end of episode one and I thought, I don't really need to carry on.

1:51:04Jon Bernthal:Oh, see, I did carry on. Really? To be fair, I had to do an interview.

1:51:08Emilia Clarke:But I was genuinely enjoying it. I enjoyed it a lot. absolutely every step of the way while it was on but as soon as it was over I didn't go oh I must must find out I think it lacked that final hook I just think yeah I agree

1:51:23Ebon Moss-Bachrach:I totally agree look no she's brilliant she's brilliant she's incredibly watchable obviously we know she's an amazing actress and they both are Haley Lee Richardson is equally as good but there isn't you're right there's nothing addictive in this

1:51:37Emilia Clarke:think about I wouldn't compare it slightly unfairly but I'm going to anyway slow horses right but Slow Horses, which also does the comedy espionage thriller thing brilliantly. The storytelling in that show, every single season so far, has been so clever in absolutely becoming addicted to each plotline and each subplot. It's so gripping. It's so exciting. It's got a similar tone and a similar thing going on. It does have a similar tone. But it doesn't achieve that narrative thrust. That's a very high part to clear, though. Oh, I know. I know. But do you know what? I interviewed the Rifles people this morning, soon to be heard on the podcast Pilot Plus, and they were talking about how in this day and age, the pressures in the streaming world, you really have to make your thing A+++.

1:52:20Emilia Clarke:You have to go further and further and further and make it as good as... And I just think this is mid-tier. This is mid.

1:52:25Ebon Moss-Bachrach:I agree.

1:52:26Emilia Clarke:That's what I'm saying. Sorry. No, no, no, no.

1:52:28Ebon Moss-Bachrach:It's not... There isn't something at the end of this that makes you want to find out what happens. I don't know whether it's that you don't care about their relationships enough to care about why their husbands were killed. Maybe they don't have, you know, there's not enough scenes with them. I don't know what it is, but there is...

1:52:41Emilia Clarke:It's not surprising enough. That's the thing about it. This kind of genre, I think, relies a lot on surprises and twists and turns and things like this. It feels a little bit, I wanted a little bit more of that kind of thing. I would say... That's partly a personal preference.

1:52:56Jon Bernthal:Yeah. I would say, just to go all Widow's Bay, the first episode is very set up heavy. Yeah, true. And it does find a rhythm more as it goes on. How many episodes have you seen? I've just seen the first three.

1:53:07Emilia Clarke:But suddenly he's watching loads of episodes. He's got Emilia Clarke to talk to.

1:53:13Jon Bernthal:But I think the success of this, the core of this, is that Hayley Lou Richardson and Emilia Clarke have incredible kind of crackling on screen energy. A hundred percent. Because this is a mismatched buddy show. It's not a buddy comedy, although there's comedy in it. And it's their relationship and the fact that they're so different, but they clearly get on very well and they are perfect foils to each other. that just makes it inherently entertaining. To your point, you are right. I think the kind of superordinate espionage plot, I mean, is it within 100 miles of slow horses? No, absolutely not.

1:53:47Jon Bernthal:But it, I mean, it's very hard, because these are obviously based on individual Mick Herron books, which are all precision crafted. I would say this has a decent storyline as it goes on and the KGB get involved and you know, what happened to their husbands? You're absolutely right, I couldn't give a shit. I couldn't give a shit. They care, I don't, whatever. But that's not why I'm watching it. Did you tell what media clocked that? Yes, I couldn't even share. No, but I don't think that's the driving thrust of the narrative either. I think they're, as they kind of get as, because it's all about them being women obviously as spies, is such a wild thing at this period in the 70s, that no one suspects them, hence the title.

1:54:21Jon Bernthal:No one suspects they're spies because they're just, heavy air quotes, women. And that's a really interesting sort of thread to mine in this 70s setting. But also, as they kind of grow into their roles, as they embrace what they're doing, their different, you know, feelings towards is it like Bea has an agenda, she wants to know what happened to her husband, but she's also incredibly smart and she speaks Russian and French and a variety of other things. She's very competent, whereas Twyla doesn't, you know, she speaks American, you know, and she has no real skills, but she has no fear at all. She's incredibly bold.

1:54:52Jon Bernthal:She thinks on her feet and she has all of the kind of self-confidence that Bea lacks. And I think the two of them together make a really fun pairing. And whenever they're on screen together, they're just fun to be around.

1:55:03Ebon Moss-Bachrach:whenever Adrian Lester's on screen

1:55:05Jon Bernthal:also fun to be around in a very different way and for me that's the heart of the show

1:55:09Ebon Moss-Bachrach:I think they're a magnetic screen pairing I do really think that but I just think I think the story is not there for me

1:55:17Jon Bernthal:in the one episode that you could be bothered to watch that one yeah wow Widow's Bay Widow's Bay yes yes it's a lot of fun I think it's great it's a lot of fun it's a lot of fun

1:55:31Emilia Clarke:can I ask one question that? Yes. Please do. Crucial question. Because I'm on the pedantic mission to that. Go on. Proven. Ponies? Because it's an acronym. Should it be all uppercase? Yes. Yes, it should. Yes. Oh, okay.

1:55:43Jon Bernthal:Yes. It's capital. Is this for the magazine? Yes. It is all uppercase. Okay. Ponies. Right. Ponies, which drops on Sky and now as a boxer all in one go. When, Boydie? Friday,

1:55:56Emilia Clarke:the 22nd of May. Friday. 2026. And it's on Sky Atlantic live at nine o 'clock that night. Super.

1:56:02Jon Bernthal:What else is out this week that we have singularly failed to cover because of the multitude of embargoes?

1:56:08Emilia Clarke:There's so much out this week. It's fucking ridiculous. There actually is.

1:56:12Jon Bernthal:All right, I'm going to go through from the list. We have... Deep Breath. Jack Ryan, which is a film, kind of. It's like a one-off singular dramatic event. What is that? That's on Prime on Wednesday.

1:56:25Emilia Clarke:To give me its full title, it's Tom Clance's Jack Ryan colon Ghost War. Drips off the tongue.

1:56:31Jon Bernthal:Maximum Pleasure Guaranteed with Tatiana Maslany which is on Apple TV Plus that also airs on Wednesday Don't need the plus Are you right? It's always plus to me, Boydie Or at least it would be if they invited me to their pre-BAFTA drinks which they didn't Anyway, let's move on Let's not get distracted They don't like you No, I mean, this is clear Right, okay So that we're going to cover on Pilot Plus on Thursday We have got The Burrows on Netflix

1:56:53Ebon Moss-Bachrach:I've watched that

1:56:54Jon Bernthal:Thursday, Thursday the 21st Steph's watched it Oh, have you? Steph, review it for me with your eyes now oh interesting okay right we will talk about probably next week what else we got on here two weeks in August on BBC One yes

1:57:08Emilia Clarke:Saturday Saturday BBC One very exciting Jessica Rain Damien Maloney Nicholas Pinnock Hugh Skinner from 2026 Leila Farzad from I Hate Suits great cast and we're not allowed to review that embargoed also embargoed Dear England also on the Bee

1:57:27Jon Bernthal:that's on Sunday

1:57:28Emilia Clarke:absolutely that's the adaptation of the play about Gareth Southgate the England manager played by Joseph Fiennes and Jodie Whittaker plays the real life psychologist who helped change the England team's practices and I interviewed them for this very podcast this week so that'll be coming out next week I think hopefully and yeah that starts on Sunday on BBC One

1:57:49Ebon Moss-Bachrach:okay excellent

1:57:51Jon Bernthal:what out of the only two shows we reviewed this week is our pick of the week Falling obviously of course Falling

1:57:58Ebon Moss-Bachrach:Well done, Jack.

1:57:59Jon Bernthal:I enjoyed ponies, but yes, I would agree it is for me.

1:58:02Ebon Moss-Bachrach:You enjoyed the very funny ponies?

1:58:04Jon Bernthal:The very funny, the hilarious. One was side-splitting, Steph, side-splitting.

1:58:08Emilia Clarke:Okay.

1:58:09Jon Bernthal:Yeah, okay. Okay, that is it for this week's show. If you'd like to leave us a review, please do so, or, you know, some kind of scathing complaint about whatever it is we've done wrong this week. Now, for those of you who do watch this on YouTube, I hope you are currently looking at us. I have no idea whether you are or not, because the cameras have been utter twats of late, so...

1:58:26Emilia Clarke:I thought you did your jazz hands just now.

1:58:27Ebon Moss-Bachrach:I did jazz hands because I did go on to the YouTube comments to just say, look, it really, we do find it incredibly annoying when the cameras don't work. You know, mostly me because I do put on a bit of lipstick just before.

1:58:39Jon Bernthal:As do I.

1:58:40Ebon Moss-Bachrach:And just in case we're on screen. So, yeah, it is annoying. It really annoys us. And as I said in my comment, if James had any hair, it would all be gone. Yes, it's been very stressful. It has been very stressful.

1:58:51Jon Bernthal:But we are, I'm hopeful. I've been actually monitoring it as we've been doing the show. And it seems to be working. You can't tell 100 % until we're finished. So, you know, but hopefully this will all be on the tube. Okay. As it were. Yeah, and follow us on social media. We are at PilotTVPod. We are YouTube slash PilotTVPod if you want to watch us to see our lovely smiling faces. You are Steph Seeland, at Steph Seeland specifically. You are at Boyd Hillner. I am at James C. Dyer. We are at PilotTVPod. This is like an episode of The One Show. Mixed the two Ronnies. And it's goodbye from me and it's goodbye from you.

1:59:26Jon Bernthal:And it's goodbye from you. Oh, God, I'm going off to watch...

1:59:30Emilia Clarke:This has got more endings than Lord of the Rings, part three.

1:59:32Jon Bernthal:Lord of the Rings, your favourite film. I'm going off to watch JLS in concert. Oh, God, JLS! We'll be back next week with Spider Noir and some other things. Pilot out.