Riot Women, The Iris Affair, and Monster: The Ed Gein Story. With guests Sally Wainwright, Adjani Salmon & Ali Hughes

27:54I just think it's weird. Anyway, the other funny thing about it is that you find out, they talked about the collapse of her company and the huge expenses that she ran through as if she kind of never really came to terms with that, she was spending a huge amount of money running her own fashion label and at one point the guy who's her main financier says he was looking at all the books and everything and he found out that she was spending£15 ,000 a year on having her plants watered Fuck off! And I thought, that does, and then it cuts to her and she goes, that's hilarious It cuts to her and she goes, I mean, the problem is no one ever told me to stop and no one really...

28:28Do that again. She addresses it and she goes, well... Darren, Darren, sorry, Darren for the video. Darren. So she kind of addresses it and she kind of says to the camera, well, no one ever told me to stop. No one ever stood up to me. And the interviewer goes, why do you think that was? And she goes, the power of celebrity. And it's like, you know, the scale is forming. Just to be clear, and pretend for a second that I'm just waking up and haven't been listening at all. She was unaware. foundation for everyone else. She was unaware that it just wasn't really on to spend 15 grand a year on watering plants.

28:59But what I don't get is that's her money, right? Oh, indeed. So why is she acting so... The thing is, it's her money, it is her money, but that's the point, isn't it? That she's never really connected or the fact that it's her money. In fact, it's not just her money, the money being invested by investors and David, etc. I think there's a bigger problem there if you can't quite like spending your own money and being like, oh yeah, I just didn't think... I mean, like... Just for the record, I will water her plants for 15 grand a year and I'm saying that right here right now I will do that yeah well I'll put it a good word but yeah the bottom line is it is like the David one which was compelling in its own right for all kinds of reasons it is incredibly compelling hanging out with them but the best scene of all my final point is is just the closing credits and I won't it's great the closing credits is when there's even more stuff about the family together and then you know hanging out with each other it's really sweet and kind of quite moving that is my weekend sorted there you go very much not mine anyway Back to Foundation.

29:53You know what you're saying? Oh, back to Foundation. No, I haven't been watching Foundation this week. So, we have a couple of things. So, I have seen a few things this week, because what I'm trying to do is I'm trying to clear the deck of things I need to watch, which is very challenging, so that I can binge-watch seasons one, two, and three of Blue Lights, which I really, really want to do. Oh, yeah, I want to do that. But I need, because the third series has dropped and we didn't even talk about it. I talked about it. But not properly. Like, we didn't review it. Boy, are you talking about it?

30:19It's not properly. also Boyd you know I don't listen when you're talking I know I am so cross with you stop saying that it's so insulting Kate I am just enraging you to take the heat off Boyd for a while so really that's what I'm doing I'd rather he be honest about it than like you don't do a cover up he doesn't need to be I visibly see when he's not listening because he just looks so I'd start emailing don't take it personally the key is don't take it personally if you listen to the Empire podcast there are huge moments in it huge stretches where you don't hear from him at all and you know he's checking his email he's having a little nap you know it's a slot person what he needs to do what he needs to do is he just needs to do this podcast with two mirrors like stationed where we would sit at him and then he could just be he would be happy he'd be like he can shit I'd be like did you enjoy Foundation this one thank you Dave I did talk about Monster anyway carry on that is probably true Monster the James Dyer story very different I made that joke were you asleep I wasn't listening boy this is a cock crash this is a movie actually do you know I've gone from feeling really angry to very happy now.

31:20Good, I'm glad I'm glad. I can help you. Spectrum of missions. This is brilliant. Okay. Oh, my God. The wheels have come off. Right, right, right. So, I've been trying to clear the decks. I've been watching a number of things. But these are all very exciting things. Now, it's going to be annoying because I'm not going to be able to... Of course. If you don't say the title, don't say the name. So, I'm going to say the titles. Oh, yeah, go on. Okay, fine. But I'm not allowed to break the embargoes. All right, cool. This is good for me personally. This should be quick, actually. This is good for me personally, because I can just check which things I need to get.

31:48Hold on. I have been watching The Witcher Season 4. Oh, okay. Don't care. Obviously can't talk about that. It is still in part code, but I've been watching The Witcher Season 4. The other thing I've been watching, which I'm very excited about, because it is announced until next year, is A Night of the Seven Kingdoms. Oh, that's insane. Which is the Game of Thrones spin-off series. What? A Night of the Seven Kingdoms. How have you become this special person? No, to be fair, this was for an interview. I was doing an interview. Oh, fine. Look at him. I was given episodes because I was doing an interview.

32:17Oh, my God. You're so terrible trying to portray it as if, like, oh, yeah, no, I've been specially elected. The one person in British media. I was selected. They came to me and said, James, you're the only person other than George R. R. Martin we want to see this show. Would you please watch it for us? Do you know what? You're a clown and we're now into the clown town. Carry on. No, I did an interview for it for Empire, so that's the reason why. But I've been watching that. I have also been watching The Diplomat, season three. Oh, yeah. I've watched the first episode. Well, I touched on this last week.

32:46I have watched the whole of The Diplomats Season 3. And obviously, this is Embargo. We will be reviewing it. I want to say, is it Pilot Plus? On this week's Pilot Plus. We're going to review it on this week's Pilot Plus. So we'll talk about it in detail there. But I am going to, just for the record, say that I had a very good week in front of the television, apropos of nothing. Oh, I don't want to know. What's going on? He's hinting. Eyes up here. Eyes up here. And look, it was, I'm just saying, the trailer for The Diplomats Season 3 was fabulous. And I really enjoyed watching the trailer. I've watched it all as well now I had I delayed my viewing who watched it all faster oh yeah definitely because he he got it first I got it first weeks weeks before and I was pinpointing I'm not allowed to moan about that though otherwise it makes me a wazzock as was as was evidenced by that listener who wrote in to say I was a wazzock that is accurate yeah oh my god I missed it yeah I got called out for basically being a screener balance basically yes so Boyd he revealed live on the podcast that he had the diplomat and I so I live emailed Netflix while we were recording.

33:47Oh, yeah, I was there. Oh, you were there. Fine. No, I've now watched all of it, yeah, and I'm not saying anything. But we will talk about it on Thursday. I'm looking forward to the discussion. Yes. And what else? Anything else? That's quite a lot. Yeah, I have access to another exciting future show, but I'm not going to mention it because I haven't seen it yet, so what's the point? Oh, my God. Okay, you've now, like, jumped the shot. Now you're trying to show off about stuff that you haven't actually seen but you just have access to. Yeah, that's right. Okay. That is sickening. I've done it before myself.

34:19You have, yeah. We're both terrible villains. Right, anyway, that is what we've been watching. I think it's time for our first guest this week. And this week's first guests, I should say, are Johnny Salmon, who is the star of Dreaming Whilst Black and his co-writer on the show, Ali Hughes. And if you missed our review of the show last week, it's airing now on BBC3. And it's really funny and it's a very well-observed show about Johnny's budding filmmaker, Quabiner, and the ordeals he kind of goes through trying to crack into the movie business. Now, Boydie, you had a chat with both of them. I did.

34:45Didn't you? Give us the highlights. What did you talk about? What happened? This is new. This is a bit out of order. Bearing in mind, you can barely remember what happened 30 seconds ago. Do you know why I'm doing this? Do you know why I'm doing this? Because there was a thread on the Pilot TV subreddit where they were talking about who listens to the interviews and who doesn't listen to the interviews. Oh, here we go. And someone suggested, he said, well, you know, perhaps if we trailed, what was it, if we bigged up the interview, gave it a little bit of oomph, sold the interview, they would be like, oh yeah, I'd be really into that.

35:09so I'm asking you Boydie drop us give us some nuggets give us some gems you talk about his fashion he's got a great cloud jumper in there oh the cloud jumper did you mention the cloud jumper you know what I meant to mention the cloud jumper I did this quite a while ago and I actually I can't remember whether I asked him about the cloud jumper but the cloud jumper is brilliant it is alright well fine so here is an interview where Boyd may or may not ask about this iconic cloud jumper that we all wish we owned if you made that cloud jumper please send us some here's Boydie talking to Ajani Salmon and Ali Hughes.

35:41Hello, and welcome to Ajani Salmon and Ali Hughes, creators, writers, and the star, of course, of Dreaming Whilst Black. How's it going? Good, good, really good. Thank you. How are you? Yeah, I'm great, thank you. Yes. Very much enjoying Season 2 of Dreaming Whilst Black, live Manchester City on BBC previews, because I get that, you know, perk before they come out. um how was it writing series two after after creating the show which started out famously as a youtube thing and then you made a brilliant pilot and then you got full series now series two do you feel like you've got to know all your characters better and was it easier to write series two than series one it wasn't it wasn't um i i think that we had you know we now we know all the characters and i remember we got advice from ash actually um a brilliant comedy producer and he was saying that season two is for comedies are normally better because you tend to know the characters now so we could just find the funny like we know what makes them tick whereas season one we were kind of figuring it out um but then it wasn't at the same time because we decided to venture off into a storyline where there's an invisible antagonist so it was hard trying to like find what pieces of the puzzle like how do you create an antagonist who is not a person and what does each actual person do that represents the system quote-unquote so that was tricky but it was fun fun nonetheless how does the writing process work between the two of you you and you and Ali, do you sit down together in the same room and write it?

37:29Or do you have a writer's room? How does it all work? We've kind of done every possible. We've written in the same room, we were writing during lockdown, so we were in different cities. It actually took us, I think it wasn't until the first season when we had one of the writers, Yemi, because we basically had, I was on final draft so i'd have screenshots i'd be typing so he could the johnny could still see but it was it was the slowest process and then yeah after a couple years of that one of the writers james was like i mean you just do like you can share the thing in file and like and write at the same time we were like great that's that's convenient um but so but now we've um i think now especially season two there's a lot more support and so a20 paul that's their office space and whatever so we had we had We had a writer's room for season one as well, but even that we started the first day we were in the BBC offices.

38:28And, but the second day we were in Charing Cross library, I think. The back upstairs back room of the library. It was like, wow. It was like the quickest pull from grades you've ever seen. Um, so this time, you know, A24 had been great. And, um, so we were in their office and that was where we had the writer's room. and um they were very they were very very involved as well with like turn around the amount of reading they did and stuff so it was a lot more um i guess professional the first season we almost didn't really know what we were doing so it's then they had this like amazing sort of freedom but also we were like it was quite chaotic at the same time i was going to ask because 824 has become like a byword for fantastic quality, original, bold, daring content.

39:17Let's use that horrendous word, sorry. Bold, daring films and TV shows. And I was going to ask what influence A24 has on the show. And so apart from being able to use their office, Ajani, what other, does it give it, does it make things easier for you as the creative at the center of the show? I think what it does is, well, resources, actually. that's one thing um one thing i would say is that when bbc when after season one they were kind of like you know what it's fine do what you want and we're like great so one thing that a24 just has is is just resources so when it was like oh we're thinking about doing this thing they're like fine we'll get it we'll get research done or we were like oh you know we wanted to discuss like you know parents trying to send like you know black parents trying to send their kids to like private school and they're like we'll get uh quality research like just resources um so we could challenge ourselves and like push ourselves and i guess back whatever joke we want to make we could back it with data to be like oh this is why we're telling this joke so i guess when you have a powerhouse like them, you just get more access.

40:37Yeah, I bet. Yeah. This series, at the end of the last series, ended with your character showing the world your short film, and it was a fantastic achievement, but then it was tempered instantly by people questioning your authenticity and all of that. And is that a kind of, is the whole subject of gatekeepers forcing you to have to go through, jump through various hoops, is that that feels even more at large in season two, even though you have, you do get a directing job, spoiler alert, quite early on. But still, you've got loads of swirling issues going on in your head and going on with the people surrounding you.

41:19And that it's almost impossible to please everyone. It seems to be one of the themes of series two. Yeah, yeah, for sure. I guess it's funny because Bob, remember Bob Ali from film school? We had a tutor in film school and he said, you know, when you're making work for yourself, make whatever you want. because the minute someone pays you to make something you're making what they want and to a degree no it is true even though like it's our idea it's our show you know like we write what we want but i guess now when you have like the degrees of like you know we have big deal films which is a production company then we have a24 which is another production company and then we have like BBC and now we have like Showtime, which was more involved in season two than season one.

42:24It's like, there are all these parties that need to sign off everything. So even though everybody wants to make our show and wants to make it the way we want to make it just one degree off can like throw all the parties in a loop. So I guess it's just the industry. It's just, it's just, yeah. the throes of being in an industry which costs so much. Ali, I wonder whether you take notes about when you have meetings with executives and people like that, because I've met a lot of the people, the kinds of people you depict in the show, you know, the people who run TV, Charlesville production companies, and it's so incredibly chillingly accurate what they're like.

43:09I was like, do all of these stories come from real situations you find yourselves in, or have you invented them all? No, I mean, I think there's definitely like broad strokes of experience. I mean, like I said, it's kind of the industry is sort of, it's a sort of monolithic, like by itself. I mean, I think the studio did quite a similar thing recently with Seth Rogen, where it was like, no one wants to, everyone, everyone wants to make good stuff. But like the system sort of sets itself up so that no one wants to be, no one wants to get fired at the same time, you know? um and so yeah i think i think anyone in the industry would have will identify with some of the the things in there but it was much it was also about tailoring because obviously in this it's it's very centered around diversity and inclusion which which you know was almost of a you know if you look at now and not even just in this industry in in in any corporation where they're just getting rid of the doge stuff because they no one cares now so they don't it's an expense that they don't need and that was a big thing that we were trying to sort of take on was the the performativity of it whereas like well is is this to help people or is it to protect yourselves and say no no look with with meeting our quotas or whatever um so um yeah i guess it was kind of like the the overlap of those two um but i i don't know it wasn't there's no one that's specific that we that um just i want to make that really clear yeah because i believe you as well i believe you yeah i mean something like jessica stevenson as a journey as you're she's absolutely brilliant in that role but i've you i you know it's such a great it's such a great observation of what what often what agents are like isn't it like yeah it's funny because we We have the same agent and we have a great agent.

45:09But I guess being in the industry and having friends, like sometimes I hear friends tell me about their agent and I'm like, really? Yeah. We're locked out. So we like to say Dreaming Was Black is a documentary, but not necessarily our specific lives. But it is someone's life who we know. Right. So, yeah. how long did it take you to come up with hot baps as a um as a oh my god that is funny you say that that was like the that was like to the wire that we had we had a show so coming up with a reality show again this speaks to the industry as well because people who work in tv would like the stuff that we would come up with they'd be like oh that would never get made and then i'm watching TV, like what was we're writing?

46:00And it's like the real housewives of Jehovah's Witnesses or something like men. And I was like, right. Look, the secret lives of Mormon wives. Yeah, that's a real show. Yeah, I was like, Jesus. So anyway, try to find like a credible thing. We had this thing called plate in a crate, which was like a game show, which, but like, it really wasn't getting any laughs in the read through and stuff like that. so it it was like down to the wire and we were like right okay everything that when you when you when we're researching everything's just a naked version of something and we're like right bake off that's doing really well okay so we came up with only flans and we were like we've landed it we've got it and we couldn't we couldn't get the clearance so then it was like oh for god's And I think Harper at E24 was like Pop-ups and we're like, yes!

46:55So that was literally probably the last thing we've done on any of the pages. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that was... Some of the ideas, again, it's so funny, like Ali was saying, some of the ideas we'd come up with, they'd be like, nah, you'd never make a show like that. And then you'd see something else come on. And I'm like, guys, like this is real like Hot Baps could I believe Hot Baps could be a real show now. Oh definitely. You should I'm watching and I'm thinking you should actually pitch this to you know The one that I couldn't get over was was it 90 Day Bride or something like that where it's like if they don't get married they get deported.

47:3790 Day Fiancé I was like what the hell is going on how do you pitch that because the thing is I can understand everyone's like yeah I'll watch that but yeah there what we learned is there are no there is no depth to there are no depth to reality tv shows exactly exactly um john i wanted to ask you about because as much as anything this series as well you also have a kind of will they won't they you know you're you're vanessa's back um for being away and there's an immediate kind of conflict there and a you know very very funny ending of episode two is that that's that feels like you know like a traditional sitcom thing is that something that you you know is that kind of traditional sitcom thing one something you wanted to explore yeah well you know what it was um season like i said like ali said season one was really figuring out what the hell this thing is right because again yes we did it uh for a web series um but again tv is just a different beast and just reading like feedback and like from critics or just you know people who watch the show our audience it was that thing of oh we're weirdly a laugh out loud comedy and but incredibly thoughtful as well and it's like well how do we and the question is oh how do we do these two things at the same time and we realize that storylines is where we do it so like maurice and fumi we adopt a sitcom storyline where every ep they're just doing funny stuff like no matter what it is they're just going to do funny stuff but equally quabs of vanessa we were like oh this is our rom-com like this is we adopt a rom-com narrative structure to their thing so we'll forever it's like a ross and rachel on friends vibe so that was always intentionally the case where we'll just keep this kind of rom-com element so it's like the show is multiple genres at the same time by and we use different comedic structures for each storyline so Vanessa Quabs and Vanessa was intentionally that it's like okay this is our rom-com yeah and it works really well yeah um and in terms of kind of the show being a to some extent being about um how hard it is to get stuff that you want to make made do you look back reflect on the use the cliche word journey of this show and do you think do you feel like in a way um how long it took to get this show made in the end is part of the whole part of its dna that is kind of actually ended up being really useful and what you've ended up with is an incredibly um well observed comedy show it's fantastic that was a very long and slightly rambling question sorry yeah no no i was trying to follow i i do agree i think every hoop we've jumped has made us a better writer like making the web series yeah making the web series made us kind of like we've kind of found out what like what is it like what is this thing that we're trying to develop and who are these people then doing a pilot separate to a tv show really forced us to like, well, this is what television is in terms of a format.

51:07And even Lockdown, because we were supposed to shoot in 2020, but then Lockdown happened. But during Lockdown, Ali and I kept writing and we ended up writing something like 45 drafts, purely because it was just Lockdown. So like, we just kept writing. But that obviously led to the pilot, which did so well, which led to A24's interest. would lead to you know getting season one so i do think even the table read having to do a table read to get the pilot because we were we were auditioning for a table read again that gave alina an opportunity to like oh we now we heard the jokes out loud i was like right well this joke kind of don't work or that joke actually maybe that joke would work if we did this instead So each time we've had to finesse the show, which is why I guess from the minute we came out season one, like with a pilot, we ran out the gate like flying because it's like, well, we've done this.

52:11So even now, to be honest, like a lot of people talk, oh, you know, the struggle of a sophomore album. But for us, we're like, this is like the fourth time we're doing this. We've been sophomore. yeah exactly exactly i was gonna say my sort of like whatever the i think maybe it was when the bbc first said oh we're gonna commission a pilot my i told my family that oh we'll go out for dinner like let's celebrate and then it was like oh we've we've got we've got a table read that is oh and then by the time they actually commissioned the show my parents were like we're not going to bother with any of this yeah yeah little did they realize that pilot was so great right you you must have the two of you must have realized that for me that's one of the great pilots i've ever seen it would have been thank you insane to not commission it right after that did you did you have that confidence about it did you guys realize just what you must have put everything into that pilot right because oh yeah yeah well that that pilot by itself is quite a journey because the first draft that we sent that was like welcome to tv i still got i've kept the the notes it was bruised like three pages and not just like you know as as you get on and you know people you learn the sort of coded language where people obviously you know they're a bit softer and kinder with but this this was like and in a good way because it was like you know we need to really And so Yeah From the first draft to whatever the last draft was That was I think that reality check kind of really Helped push us actually Yeah I think she was doing it Deliberately because she did want us to Succeed I think it was It was being cruel to be kind sort of thing It was three pages Single line space word document And it was one line where she was like, this is funny.

54:10And it's like one line of dialogue. And that was it. The rest of it was like, fix it. Oh my God. Wow. Would you like this show to carry on? You know, have you got enough ideas for more seasons? Or, you know, have you thought that through? We've definitely got an idea for another season at the very least. Okay. Yeah. I've put my foot in it loads of times, so I'm not going to say it. It's tricky. I always seem to get a couple of calls. Someone goes, why did you say that? So I think that is fine. Yeah, I think you've answered that question very well. Yeah. Finally, Johnny, I have to ask you as a huge Doctor Who fan, what was the experience like of being in a Doctor Who episode and a really good Doctor Who episode, by the way?

55:00Oh, no, thank you. It was amazing. Like I didn't realize because Doctor Who is such an interesting machine because a lot of the practice, like they do loads of practical effects. So we literally did like no blue screen, green screen work. And I didn't expect that like there are people in the Daleks. Like I didn't know that there were people in the Daleks and there are armory guys who shoot, who like stand behind the Daleks with like this air rifle and shoot stuff. and I had no idea that this is going to be the thing. I thought we were just going to play make-believe. So from take one... and we're like running and I see like I feel something like that's kind of flash past my face thinking wait this is this is real shit so no no it was a great it was a great experience um but yeah it was so fun because it's such a um such a a staple show and it's such a great show to work on like yeah it was an amazing experience i'm good oh i'm glad i'm glad um thank you so much johnny and ali congratulations on a fantastic second series and um yeah and hope to see you you soon.

56:11Cheers. Thank you. Take care. That was Ajani Salmon and Ali Hughes and now I would move on to this week's listener question. However, we've got two interviews this week and Kay has a hard out this week because she has somewhere apparently, quote unquote, better to be. So, we might have to skip the listener question. Okay. Can I just say then I send apologies to... Unless you think we can get through it in like a... Yeah, we can. We can. Okay, fine. I'll do it really quickly. Roll on. And actually, I just realised I've cut off the name of the person who sent this in so apologies because I can't access the internet so to double check but a discerning listener got in touch and said Hi Pilot Podcrew I've been watching The Couple Next Door on Channel 4 recently and I've really struggled with the filming location the show is supposed to be set in Leeds but it's very clearly not I've nothing against other locations being used for UK based shows but this one it really pulled me out of the drama it feels like no effort was made to hide the fact that it was filmed in the Netherlands other than a very dodgy CGI Leeds Hospital sign on a building that isn't Leeds Hospital In one scene, you can even see the European plug sockets behind Hugh Dennis's head, and the street where they all live looks nothing like a classic British suburb.

57:17Just wondering how you feel about this. Is there a particular reason why this happens? Have you ever been so taken out of a show because of the setting? I seem to remember another series with Sheridan Smith that gave me the same feeling a few years ago, though I can't recall the name. Anyway, always appreciate your opinions on such trivial matters. Love the pod and all the joy you bring. Yeah, it depends where they're shot, doesn't it? Because if it's like based in, I don't know, Manchester or something, and I probably wouldn't know the difference if they threw in a few English number plates and signs.

57:44Because it's not. Because it's somewhere that I'm not familiar with. But when they do central London, and it's clearly not central London, and I can't remember the name of the show, Boydie, but there was one, it was kind of a domestic dramery type thing, and it was clearly shot in Eastern Europe somewhere, but it was set in central London. It was so abundantly clear that it wasn't the capital. I was like, where is this? Is this some hitherto undiscovered borough of Hackney that I've never, like, there's no way. I think a lot of Channel, like particularly Channel 5, a lot of their dramas are set abroad.

58:13So The Game with Jason Watkins, I think we reviewed it. That was filmed in Bilbao, Spain. Was that the absolutely cuckoo bong one? Yeah, I mean, to be fair, quite a lot of the Channel 5 dramas are. But yes, it was quite. But Jason Watkins was brilliant in it. And they filmed there because of the tax breaks. I was going to say, it's always financial, isn't it? Yeah, and the rumor as well with Rachel Shenton, I think was filmed in Budapest. Yeah, it's almost always for financial reasons. Unless it's like Love Rat where it's integral to the story. A voice favourite. Exactly. I forgot about that. But you know what?

58:42There are like Nicholas Schindler's company who make Ross's or T Davison shows now and they make a show which we'll probably review coming out which is Harlan Coburn's new show. Lazarus. I did interviews for that this week. I forgot to mention I watched that show. I watched all six episodes of Harlan Coburn's Lazarus because I interviewed him and Bill Nighy for the podcast this very week. I just completely slipped my mind. Anyway. Because you're dealing with so many famous people at the time void. That show. Did you get lost on the way to the interview at all it wasn't in a dressing room okay fine carry on thank you good call back Chase is listening yeah see I listened to that bit no very good but they film everything in the north either Manchester sometimes Liverpool but mostly Manchester no matter where it's set because they want to you know they're championing the north and they're not doing it just for financial reasons they actually want you know that's part of the whole point of their company they've always filmed everything in the north no matter where it's set so I think Lazarek is actually set in London but I have to have done a brilliant job because it looks like it could be London.

59:37Yeah. So, but yeah, by and large it is. But I remember, do you remember, didn't you come to that screening of the first season of The People Next Door, whatever it's called? No, The Couple Next Door. The Couple Next Door. Because they actually were really proud, the production company, of what a good job they've done in making Belgium or wherever it was filmed seem like Leeds. Oh, really? Yeah, they really went on about it. It was quite interesting. I was thinking... I've never thought it was Leeds, but I always knew it wasn't filmed in the UK. Yeah. But I don't have an issue with it because it looks quite nice, so.

1:00:05It looked quite nice, yeah. But I did think at the time that's such a bizarre decision. Well, I was thinking, like, if the location is germane to the storyline, like, if it's important that it's set in a specific place, then you should just shoot it there. Like, I feel like, you know. Can you imagine, like, if Happy Valley had been shot in, like, Sophia or something? It just wouldn't have worked at all. Because I want to say Halifax, but it's that general kind of area, isn't it? There are times. It's essential. Yeah, there was a show. Oh, I wish I could think of. EastEnders. No, no, no. yes if EastEnders were shot overseas there was a show set in somewhere like the coast of Ireland or something like that and I remember I'm thinking oh they've done a brilliant it's like a love letter to this part and I read it I was like no it's from Scandinavia that does happen quite a lot it does happen that show's really about it's setting well a lot of Braveheart was shot in Ireland wasn't it you know the yeah that's true you know the just so you know I'm regretting doing the listener question it's a good question though you know the series about Hawaii you know which we reviewed the Apple TV Plus I think not all of that was filmed in Hawaii even though it's like completely about Hawaii and how the growth of Hawaii oh you were just in the moment I think you're absolutely right yeah it wasn't shot in Hawaii yeah Chief of War yeah crazy yeah no Chief of War was in fact shot in New Zealand yeah it's brilliant isn't it a love letter to Hawaii it was yeah but in New Zealand but in New Zealand yeah no it's fascinating I think if you are a local to that area you will feel a little bit like irked so I think you know it's nice to have a certain amount of authenticity if you're naming points.

1:01:36But also if it means that more shows are going to get made, I'm like, you know. Well, there's that too. Yeah. There's that. Foundation was actually made in space. Okay. Now that you've dropped the F-bomb, it's time to move on. Right. That was a listener question. If you want your question read out on here or many, many questions read out in the voluminous post bag on Pilot Plus, which you should absolutely subscribe to, it is pilottv at empiremagazine.com. Okie dokie. Right. We should probably do some news. Boydie, what has happened this week? Well, there are some interesting news stories going around.

1:02:08First of all, I want to talk about Romo Shraganathan. Particularly because Kay and I are both huge fans of his work. One of the things that he takes a bit of himself for is that he does a lot of stuff on TV. Right now, in fact, on a Saturday night, just for an example, you can watch him hosting the New Episodes of The Weakest Link, which does brilliantly. Which I have to tell you, the Radio 2 special was very funny. Fantastic, right? It was so funny. Sally Traffic is a legend. Sally Traffic is a legend. and then like about an hour later he's on ITV with his new series of his parents evening yeah that will show where you get celebrity parents with their non-celebrity offspring which is a really good format as well they've announced that he's doing a brand new show an unscripted comedy game show called Would You Rather Decide to Survive for Prime Video which is going to go out next year so the premise of the show is like you know when you ask hypothetical questions like would you rather be invisible or be able to fly oh yeah yeah fight one giant duck or a thousand tiny ducks they try and they take those and they make them real they actually make a range yes somehow they're going to actually go through this sounds mad I know it does sound mad right so he's doing that which goes and not only that did you know Kay oh yeah I know what you're going to say what West End yeah he's going to be he's not in the West End Duke of York Theatre yes insane I saw it yesterday I was like oh god I need to get tickets for this because Sheridan Smith as well he's acting Sheridan Smith in it exactly it's Alan Abel's classic comedy and yeah he's making his West End debut and right now he's doing Wolf and El Tour with you know our favourite podcast yeah I think he's doing a rap album as well David Davis.

1:03:32His album's coming out soon. Radio 2. He's the busiest man in entertainment. It is extraordinary. I'm saying bring it on. And people will complain about his ubiquity, which I believe is the word. Yes, it is. But bring it on. I'm sure you are concerned. Listen, I'm happy for people to be prolific if they're good. Good rule. Yeah. Like it. So, yeah, that was my best news story of the week. I'm sure James is gripped by. Yeah, I am gripped. I have a few things I wanted to share. Okay. First and foremost, you remember the Halo TV series that ran for two seasons on Paramount Plus before it got cancelled.

1:04:02It's now on Netflix and apparently everyone is watching it. Oh, it's one of those. Yeah, it's had a new release of life on Netflix. So there is, I don't know if there's any hope that The Master Chief will return. It might be that that ship has sailed. But I'm glad that more people are seeing it because I really enjoyed that show. But the biggest news that we didn't discuss last week because we recorded before it broke was that Peaky Blinders is returning. Oh, yeah. Two series. Now, the BBC have been very careful not to call this a sequel. Yes. It's another show. It's a follow-up. Use whatever you like.

1:04:29They're not using the term sequel. So it's not a direct sequel to it, but it is set... In the universe. It is set in the... Basically, it's another generation, so it's slightly further on. And it's two new series, and it's sort of Britain, 1953, so it's like post-Second World War instead of obviously the first one being post-First World War. Knight's talked about this before, that he quite liked the idea of doing another post-war story in this world. And it's Birmingham again, and it's sort of a new generation of Birmingham's sort of underworld, and how the city has changed and everything like that.

1:04:59I'm excited to see it you know I imagine maybe possibly we'll get some returning characters if not actors but who knows but obviously we've got the movie another man who's prolific yeah we've got the movie coming yeah exactly that so it's after the movie isn't it the movie's coming out yes which is a Netflix yes production and then this which will be on Netflix overseas but on the BBC UK yeah it's interesting I mean talking of prolific I mean Stephen Knight again literally just said that God don't do it James are you now also zoning out yeah no I just said I was you're endorsing what I said you're endorsing what I said oh just reinforcing it and not in fact yeah exactly not doing a James not doing a James some news though the trailer has dropped for Ryan Murphy's new legal drama All's Fair I don't know if you've seen it James now crucially it stars Kim Kardashian but also Naomi Watts Sarah Paulson Glenn Close it's about Glenn Close Glenn Close what did I say?

1:05:50Glenn Close yeah Glenn is Close Glenn Close I would like it noted for the record that I did not pick you up on that void. Yeah, well done, Jane. A rare moment of not being a dick for you left an opportunity for a void to step in. We're like a tag team on the right. Yeah, I know. God, what's going on? Is this how you show love? Like, when someone comes back, you don't know how to express it. Yeah, you're like pulling my pigtail. Glenn Close, who lives in Glenn Close. And filmed in Budapest, like, in a close. So, yes, anyway, it's about divorce lawyers and from the trailer, it looks fun, it looks melodramatic, trashy, it looks all the stuff, I don't know, I'm very excited about it.

1:06:24I'm intrigued, I'm intrigued by all Ryan Murphy. We'll get to Ryan Murphy later. We will. We certainly will. But they have also announced the release date. Did you mention that? No, I didn't. Fourth of November. There you go, yeah. Which means we're coming quite soon. And they're having a big premiere in London. Yes, which I'm going to. Are you coming? I might do. Date night, come on. Let's do it. I think it might clash with an Arsenal game. Oh, God. Unbelievable. Always the arse. I've got something else I want to mention. We always hoped this would be the case. Funnily enough, I always assumed this was just happening and I was waiting for it to arrive, but apparently it hadn't.

1:06:54that Crow Girl has now officially been renewed for a second series, which is just the second half of the book because we only got the first half of the book in series one, which did not in any way give a resolution. I enjoyed the first half. Yeah, it was great, but I would have been furious if it hadn't Greenlit it. Because I just assumed it was coming. So now it is. Yes. I'm very pleased about that as well. I wanted to mention and give a nod to the sad news that author and all-round legend Dame Jilly Cooper sadly passed away, age 88. Good innings, but yeah, it'll be... She was the queen of the Bonkbusters, obviously the adaptation of Rivals we've all loved, and they're filming the second series now, so no doubt more poignant for them.

1:07:34But yeah, just wanted to mention the fact that she passed away. Finally, maybe, I don't know, unless James has got another five or six sci-fi news stories he wants to tell us. We don't have time for that. But we've been talking for ages about the fact that I have not finished watching Dexter Resurrection. Yes, Dexter Resurrection. You have not, even though you... You promised you would do it. And we are going to do, I am going to watch them eventually and we will do a spoiler special discussion. But it has just been announced this week that it's been renewed for second season. Good. Unlike the prequel, which they said was renewed and then they changed their mind.

1:08:06It was renewed and then un-renewed. So unless they un-renew this one, unless they do another reverse variant, which I don't think they will because this has been well-received, Dexter's Action, not just by James, by other people. I think there should be some penalty system put in place so that if channels do that, or whatever, broadcasters, they have to pay some kind of fee. Oh, absolutely. Because that's disgusting. It is awful, yeah. I think everyone was shocked and appalled by that. Yes. So, yeah. I mean, we weren't shocked or appalled. No, but we were working on it. Yes. I thought the decision to axe it was the right decision because it was terrible, with all due respect, to everyone involved.

1:08:44But then to change your mind, to commission it and change your mind, that was the madness. Yeah, because it's like people who are then making financial decisions based on the fact that they're going to be doing another series or something. Yeah. Look at James Heartless Buster. Wow. James Heartless Buster? Is that his name now? Thanks. James HB. J-HB, yeah. James Hartley Brewer. I'm not saying anything. Okay. I don't even know what's happening. Sorry. Are we done with news? Yes, we are. We're done with news. Let's call time on that. God for that. DNR. So for our next guest, and our next guest needs no introduction at all, but I'm going to give her one, or this will be a very jarring transition.

1:09:16She is the legendary Sally Wainwright, creator of Hall of Famer Happy Valley and her new show Riot Women. we're going to talk about very very shortly but this airs on BBC One and this is a group of middle aged women come together to form a rock band Kay you spoke to Sally herself were you in awe? Yes I was very excited to speak to her because I'd watched three episodes spoiler I fucking love it Unbelievable I know so I was beside myself to talk to her about why she wanted to write this and the awesome cast that are in it so yeah it was a pleasure to speak to her and she was on top form Well we'll find out if that's true in just a second because this is Kay and Sally won't write Sally welcome to Pilot TV Podcast Thank you I wanted to start so before this interview I did some I was reading some interviews you had done and I read this quote that said I think I'm more excited about this than anything else I have ever written Why is that?

1:10:11I think it's got a really unique energy It's been fun right from the start and then when we got into filming it we just had a really good time. I think it's something to do with the fact that it's got music in it, but it's got a really extraordinary energy that continues through the whole drama. I think there's something about the quality of the music. Because the women had to learn to play the instruments themselves, you know, they really are playing those instruments. I think they're bonded really well, magnificently, much more so than usual when you've got actors coming together to do something.

1:10:46I think just the fact of having to learn the instruments and then to trust each other when you're trying to get to the end of a song together. It was just really joyous. It was wonderful to watch them because they were just clearly having a ball. And I think that actually comes across on screen. And it was just fun to make. It was a really lovely group of people. And we had fun. And I do believe it comes across on stage, on screen, sorry. And I mean, it's got a very dark story running through it, you know, in a sort of Happy Valley-esque, I hope, way. But it's also got this, just the sheer joy of what it's like to be creative together and to make music together.

1:11:28Yeah. And to, you know, kick in a bit of ass in the world with your music. Do you know what? The joy definitely comes across. And I imagine there's an element of vulnerability when it comes to learning a new instrument and, you know, performing together because you don't want to let anyone down. Yeah, yeah. I've got to say, I'm not at the stage that these women are at, but I'm already feeling the the spectrum of emotions that goes with being you know dismissed and overlooked and sidelined as I you know I'm getting knee deep into middle age and honestly it just feels amazing Sally to have that reflected on screen in such a vivid and visceral way.

1:12:02Oh good I'm so pleased because that was the the objective I wanted to write about women who are similar age to me and who are going through some of the things I was going through which isn't just menopause you know that's just one of the aspects of your life when you get to a certain point it's you know you do find yourself I did mid-50s just juggling with a lot of things that I haven't quite anticipated and in the middle of that your body is changing and you do feel like you're becoming a different person in a way that's not good you know not very um uplifting and you kind of have to dig deep for resilience to keep getting on with things and going through with things you have to deal with and so I wanted to find a way to talk about that but in a way that wasn't miserable you know and so I combined the idea of women realising that it's you know it's about anger it's about a certain anger that as Beth says in episode one about her rock band and you thought the clash were angry I write that quite down so it was finding a fun way to talk about these kind of things a way that hopefully an uplifting interesting way to talk about stuff that would not alienate people or maybe I don't want to watch that it's about old women being miserable and it's so not you know it's about it's actually um I hope I do think it's the most uplifting thing I've ever written it's it's got it's got a real as I say it's got a really dark story running through it I hope it's got that that element as well but I do um I hope that joy comes across too yeah I absolutely and it's do you know what it's darkly funny and I just think this element of these women coming together is so empowering even if it's enraged and it is like you know because they are angry with how they are being treated in various ways was there any part of your own personal experience that you've plowed into it and was it quite fun mining those experiences you might have had of as you say having had to juggle or you know it's kind of a party you know it's great therapy being able to yeah and it is all personal you know I do think all writing is personal um oh this kind of writing anyway I'm sure I'm not sure if you're writing a thriller it's quite as personal but for me that for me this was very personal me certainly writing about what I thought I was going through in terms of my mum had just started to develop dementia and I was having to you know get very involved with that um which I found I found difficult you know it's not something I'd anticipated I hadn't seen it coming uh until it happened and I lived like 200 miles away from her and was traveling up to see her as often as I could whilst having a busy family life whilst uh got a very demanding job going on and um it was um it's that that certainly was one of the things that I wanted to write about when I started constructing what the show was going to be the dementia storyline feels um really poignant and what struck me was that I was looking into and I thought actually that's you know I think it's 62 percent of uh people in the UK who have dementia are women and I and I think it's because we tend to live old you know for longer but also it just really struck me that first of all in that regard it's like at every stage of life it seems that women sort of pull the short straw um and suffer you know every stage but also as you say in terms of the um if you even if you don't you know you don't have dementia it's like the people around you who do often it falls to the women to care for and the burden of responsibility and I thought that's really interesting as well yeah I know it's true it's completely true isn't it it's completely true well women are nurturing women do tend to take it upon themselves to do that I mean I know when um my boys were little my husband gave up his job to look after them but I still think I, because I'm a woman, I did probably do more than a man in my position.

1:15:56You know, I couldn't not, when my first child was born, George, I was still writing, but I'd have him next to me by my desk. The ultimate multitasking. Yeah, just because I couldn't not bear to be with him because, you know, when you're in birth, it's weird not being with this baby who's been in your tummy for nine months. Yeah. So, you know, you do have that unusual bond that men just don't have with babies i know that's a different aspect of it but you know women are intrinsically nurturers and i think that kicks in as well when you have an elderly parent who needs yeah in fact beth after this great line in the first episode where she says um they've all had the best of me for years and now i've got nothing to give i'm dispensable and it's so devastating because it's true and that's kind of tying in with what you said it's like we play so many roles and actually it's often to our own um you know to our own detriment but we want to do it you know because we are naturally givers um we have to talk about the amazing cast Sally you must have been come I mean Tamsin Greg, Joanna Scanlon, Lorraine Ashbourne, Anne Reid, Sue Johnston, Rosalie Craig I mean fantastic were you just I mean did you write with any of them in mind or was it do you not work like that what's the process?

1:17:06I didn't work like that with this one I often do but they were so varied. I didn't really, I was kind of writing blind. I often write with someone's voice in my head and I didn't with this. And it was a really interesting process putting them all together. They're all people I wanted to write for. Like Joanna had been in Gentleman Jack and I really, really wanted to do something else with her. I wanted to write for Times and Sins forever. Well, I did. I used to write The Archers. oh wow yeah of course full circle moment i have written full of rain because i used to write playing the field that she was in 25 years ago um amelia i've worked with many times and she's i just adore working with amelia she's so clever and interesting and rosalie i um i saw her on stage in company uh in 2018 and i just thought she was stunning i remember thinking oh my god i've got to keep an eye on you because you're amazing when i invented kitty i just instantly thought of her because she was doing it's an extraordinary performance she gives and I can't quite imagine anyone else doing that I think she's probably the only person who could have pulled that off yeah she is perfectly correct and her voice oh it's breathtaking she came into a mission for us and she she had to sing Violet and she just she just nailed it it was just it was it was extraordinary being in the same room she had the hair standing up on the back of your neck it was so extraordinary to be in the same room as someone who can sing like that yeah of course I mean so talented um so obviously with the story they form these women form a band center the talent contest and is this you living out some of your punk rock band dreams here Sally yeah yeah but isn't that I think there's a universal thing you know that most of us have fantasized at some point in our lives about being in a band and at some point but well me anyway you get to a point where you realize yes I am never going to be in a rock band I am not that cool but this is never say never Sally never say never well this is the next best thing create all these women who I want to be and then making them be in a rock band together yeah I've learned to play the drums I learned to play the drums um as part of my research so I could write knowledge about what it's like to have to learn to play and the women did they've all learned they are they are all playing their own instruments I was going to ask you about that because they look I mean I was going to say if they had not it looks very convincing but do they so they actually did that was the thing i didn't want it to look not convincing and i thought the only way to get them to learn to play the instruments so they did they did learn to play the instruments wow they can actually they can actually perform and play as a band they are they are it's really them please say at the launch they're going to be performing something oh yeah surely the point is that they could they could actually do it yeah they did get that good at it and as i say it just bonded them brilliantly yeah i think that's something as well just shows you that you know we can still learn new skills at any point right absolutely yeah i mean i found it very when i learned to play the drums um and guitar i've been tickling on guitars as well it is it is good for the soul you know to learn yeah absolutely since i was a kid learn the drums and then it suddenly occurred to me one day that i could actually afford to buy some now so you treated yourself um did you write did you write the songs No, I didn't.

1:20:28A band called ARX, two fabulous people from Brighton, Hani and Clara. They are a punk rock band. ARX, A-R-X-X is how it's spelt. And they're wonderful. We approached four different groups to give us thoughts about whether they could write stuff for us or not. We gave them some ingredients for a song. We gave them all the same ingredients. and Arcs, they came back with something that was just wonderful. Instantly, it was like an instant hit in our heads in the production office. And it just had a fabulous energy and it really worked in terms of it felt like it was part of my scripts. It felt like they'd got my humour.

1:21:10So when they sing the songs in the show, it doesn't feel like you're suddenly going into a different genre or a different mind space. It feels like it is all part and parcel of what's in the scripts. So they were just a wonderful discovery. Well, I've got to tell you, last night when I was watching it, the lyric he said, oh, you're just like your mother, was going around. I was like, it's such a good tune. They have to release it. It has to be somewhere because, yeah, it's genuinely a good song. I love it. Well, they sing a song called Seeing Red. Instead, when they actually do the talent contest, they're going to do their Waterloo cover.

1:21:44And at the last minute, they decide that they're not going to do the Waterloo cover and they sing a song about the menopause. called I can't wait and then in episode six they sing a song called riot women which is the theme too yeah and um yeah they're they're I think the songs are great I hope yeah they're a lot of fun and that's kind of what you're saying you know it's yeah it's that joy um so listen I just wanted to find out because I like to ask people that you're watching right because we're watching your shows what are you watching right now and that you can't get enough of is there anything that's I don't watch a huge amount of telly I'll tell you she'll do love because it's in my mind at the moment even though it's a while since it was on I just came back from Australia I went to the Future Vision TV conference in Australia and I met my heroines Kate McLennan and Kate McCartney who wrote Deadlock which was on Amazon about four years ago three years ago and I loved Deadlock I thought it was like I thought it was a bit like Happy Valley but funny, really funny wow what a compliment no it was wonderful and i got we did an event together me and the gates who wrote it and um and then i went i flew to tasmania to look around the location super fan super proper super fan yeah taking selfies of myself with the deadlock so deadlock is the i think deadlock and hacks that have really blown me away in recent years yeah absolutely they're great ones um what do you hope finally what do you hope your viewers get from the show right women i always want to entertain people i like i hope it's intelligent entertainment i hope it makes people i hope it entertains them i hope it uplifts them i hope it makes them think a little bit about women and the you know the things women go through at a certain point in their lives um and um that he i i i hope it makes people want to go in and form rock bands in yeah do you know what we'll see a spike of like drums being sold and guitars and it'll be because of the sally wainwright effect um i personally like you know adolescents being shown in schools i really feel like i love this show so much i think it should be compulsory viewing for men women and children because just what it does in terms of a service for you know showing what women go through and trying to you know hopefully people will have a greater understanding and empathy towards that i think it's really important so yeah i want to thank you for giving your time to yeah i want to say thank you to uh for taking the time to talk to us and also on behalf of all women listening thank you for writing this sally oh thank you that's very kind that was kane sally wainwright and time now for this week's reviews and we begin we begin with monster the ed gean story on netflix and this is the third series of ian brennan and ryan murphy's killer thriller after uh the jeffrey darmer story and the lila and Eric Menendez story.

1:24:46This one sees Charlie Hunnam as Gein, also known as the Butcher of Plainfield. And while this is the first season of Monster to not have Murphy directly running the show, because Brendan's the sole writer on this one, Pilate's very own Beth Webb will be thrilled to know that Murphy's quirks are still very much in evidence. Isn't that right, Boddy? Oh my God, and then some. I mean, I think this is the most extraordinary very Murphy-ish, Murphy-esque, Murphy world show. To not be done by Ryan Murphy. He is not actually. It's his creative colleague, Ian Brennan, who's worked on the previous Monster Shows and very sad that Ryan Murphy works as well.

1:25:28But it's insane. I cannot begin to explain the levels of insanity in this series. I mean, I was kind of... I remember saying on this very podcast, because they didn't send out screeners to anyone at all. No, they didn't. Around the world because the reviews didn't start coming in until the day it went out on Netflix and people hurriedly watched the whole thing and the trade press in America put their reviews up, etc. But I remember reading the premise and reading that it's not just about Ed Gein, this notorious killer, but also about the impact that Gein had had on popular culture. So they had Alfred Hitchcock in the show and other elements of films and TV that were inspired by his story somehow were going to be depicted in the show.

1:26:21But I wasn't quite prepared for the unbelievable extent to which that is the case. So, for example, and you might say I'm spoiling something here. Oh, okay. I mean, it's all a matter of historical records. So let's see what you're going to know. You're talking about the influence on him of certain people. No, I'm talking about what's included in the show. And I don't, it's definitely not a plot spoiler. I'm about to talk about it. I have no idea where you're going. I'll just say it. Is it going to involve Nazis? Well, I'll get to that. Not initially. This show not only shows the impact it had by saying, so Psycho, for example, there's a recreation of the shower scene in Psycho.

1:27:00And it's like as if Alfred Hitchcock had been able to make the famous shower scene in Psycho, which Janet Leigh is obviously naked, having a shower, and being stabbed, is about to be stabbed to death by Norman Bates, played by Anthony Perkins. But they recreate it as if there was no censorship, as if you could show anything in 1960 when Cycle was made. And you see her fully naked, you know, and it's quite... Distasteful. And the knife going into her stomach in an extraordinary way, as if to go, yeah, but this is what Hitchcock would have done now, in this day and age, the way he would have made this, if he could.

1:27:36I don't know if he would because, anyway, then they recreate scenes from the Texas Chainsaw Massacre in which they do the same thing. They kind of have, because the famous thing about the Texas Chainsaw Massacre, as all horror film buffs will tell you, is that you see hardly any actual blood and gore in that film. You don't actually, very, very rarely, if ever, do you see the chainsaw cutting, you know, into the skin to not to be fine. Well, you certainly do in this fucking series because they then do, there's massive chainsaw action in this, which is extraordinarily gory and violent and horrible.

1:28:10And then, they're not stopping there, they then proceed to go recreate scenes from Science of the Lambs, and even, and this was the thing that I was like, oh my God, you're actually going, this is getting bonkers now, Mindhunter, the David, have you got this far in the series? No. Yeah, you see, this is what I'm saying. They recreate a bit from Mindhunter, which is David Fincher's Netflix thing about serial killers that only went out a couple of years ago, it's astonishing. So on the one hand, you're like, I was absolutely bowled over by the audacity of them to make the point they're trying to make about the influence of Ed Gein on popular culture by actually recreating stuff from a rival Netflix show that went out a couple of years ago.

1:28:53And was vastly better. And was vastly better, of course, needless to say. But it seems to be the reason they're doing this, Ian, the creators of this, is to critique, actually, the fact that films and TV have exploited his story for their own ends. Meanwhile, this is the most exploitative and over-the-top and demented depiction of a real-life killer I have ever seen and then some. And not just those moments, there are other moments that are utterly, utterly bonkers and crude to an extraordinary extent. So part of the story is as you refer to, Ed Gein became obsessed with Nazis and one particular kind of female Nazi who's dramatising lurid kind of comic books which was got much fetishistic It's a Nazi fetishistic dominatrix action, exactly.

1:29:46And he recreates that and I'm so open-minded and so kind of laissez-faire about this stuff. That's true, you are. I will allow anything, I don't care, if you want to do something that's incredibly tasteless and vulgar, and this is the most tasteless and vulgar thing I've ever seen on TV in my life, then fine, go ahead and do it. So even the early on depictions of the Nazi stuff, which are, to be fair to the show, recreating or visualising, dramatising what's in these comic books that he apparently did read. But there is a shot, there's one shot later on in the series, which you probably haven't got to, where they depict an image from the Holocaust space.

1:30:23And I was like, you cannot do that, I'm sorry. You've got to draw the line somewhere. You're making an incredibly, as I say, lurid, exploitative thing. By all means, go ahead and do it be honest about it don't pretend that your show is a critique of anything about the depiction of violence on TV or true crime or any kind of treatise when you are exploiting it much more than any of these other examples that the show is there's one scene where a guy's having sex with someone where her chest is prominently shown in the most ridiculously exploitative manner I'm like you cannot lecture us about any of this stuff it's insane but that shot I'm talking about you'll know it when you see it if you watch this whole thing.

1:31:02I mean, even early on, he's looking at pictures of Holocaust victims. Well, what I would say is, so one of those pictures is then dramatized. Right. And that was like, no, no, no, no, no. You can't. It's just too much. But it comes down to our old friend tone, doesn't it? Like, if you're dealing with these subject matters and you have a certain tone, it's fine. But the tone of this does not. And it is funny, though, because, like, this is the most Ryan Murphy thing ever to have not had Ryan Murphy's hands on it. Even to the point where there's an autopsy and the kind of, I don't know, like the forensic pathologist whatever has got like dominatrix type PVC black gloves on and it's all just heavily sexualised and you know I'm assuming that the performance because Hunnamer's performance is a choice I'm assuming that's true to the mannerisms and voice of Gein himself you would imagine there's a recording of Ed Gein that he did build on fair enough and the crux of this I think it's partly Gein's relationship with his mother played here by Laurie Metcalf who is a very extreme religious ascetic Christian and, let's be honest, abusive.

1:32:02I mean, literally the show begins with him masturbating in her underwear. It's fucked up. As a mission statement, that's something. Obviously, I started reading around, I wanted to a little bit know how accurate, and apparently it's completely challenged and not at all proven that he ever wore women's clothing, let alone his own mother's clothes. So they've just included it for lols? Some people are saying. There's certainly debate about it, but they completely, and repeatedly, constantly, he's doing that, by the way. Carry on. I mean, look, so speaking personally about this, there are two things.

1:32:32I do not enjoy particularly Ryan Murphy's shtick generally. So this instantly isn't something that's going to appeal to me. And I also, as you know, have a real issue with true crime dramatizations. And whether or not that's right or not, I don't know. So, for example, I can watch The Crow Girl and love it because it's fictional and it's fine. I mean, it's depraved and it's horrible and it's sadistic, but it's fictional. Whereas when you add in the fact that it's true, it gives me the ick. It just gives me the ick. And I think it glamorizes like a person who does not deserve to be remembered by history.

1:33:02And I almost rather wasn't. But also, it's just like, I, I, and okay, so there was a review. Obviously, it was The Guardian. But there was a review in The Guardian. Lucy Mangum wrote it. And the line that she used was, this has nothing, this is nothing but a voyeuristic pandering to the basest instincts of viewers. And generally, that's how I feel about true crime across the board. But, but when it's done tastefully, and often like from a very victim-centric point of view, I think that's fine. but this which almost like glamorises and sort of makes iconic this deranged horrible killer I'm like why are they making this and why are people watching it and why do they enjoy it and I don't understand it 100 % agree I absolutely hated watching this right and because true crime is not my bag I cannot stand it and I feel similarly to you but then I was thinking to myself okay but you know because I'm a bit of a hypocrite because I I mean enjoyed seems like the wrong word to say but I enjoyed the sixth commandment and I was like okay and that's based on real life.

1:33:57It's the Timothy Spall, Ina Hardwick. But totally, that's a very different beast, isn't it? So this is my thing. I was like, why was I okay with that and I'm not with this? And that's, I think it's down to the writing of Sarah Phelps. You know, it was written very respectfully and sensitively. It was accurate. It was just, as you say, the tone. And victim-centric as well, wasn't it? Victim-centric and it felt right. It felt necessary in some way, you know, like it felt, because it was victims first. This is the opposite of that. It lacks the nuance, it lacks the sophistication, it's broad brush storytelling, it's lurid as Boyd said, it is unnecessary, right?

1:34:37But all of that aside, for me, obviously I just hated watching it because of the awful things that this Ed Gein did, but the Nazi scenes, the inclusion of those felt such an odd creative choice. it was grotesque right because there were other ways of conveying the influence of Nazis on him right his obsession with Nazis it was already covered off because he was pouring over these comics and magazines in which they were you know it was depicted as we said there was absolutely no fucking need for it to be then you know like depicted and reenacted I thought it was and I know like I do take Boyd's point of like you know people should be able to do that blah blah blah and he draws the line at the Holocaust thing but and I'm more sensitive to it, then he is, you know, he is open-minded in a way that I'm not.

1:35:24But I was like, it's absolutely fucking outrageous that they felt the need to include it. There's pushing the envelope and then there's just, you know, like, there's, I found it grotesque, like I said. And like I said, I haven't watched past the first episode. Yeah, and I will. But I know enough about the story to know that, you know, it isn't so much about the number of people he killed as to what he did with body parts, essentially. And like, if you read the, you know, historical reports, it is absolutely grotesque and I don't even want to know where this series goes with that. You haven't seen anything yet because I have watched the whole thing and it gets incredibly grotesque and sickening.

1:36:01I would like to say that Ian Brennan has been asked about this and he has completely, this is a quote from Ian Brennan, right? He says, the show is always trying not to be exploitative. It's not very hard, is it? Can I say try harder? Well, 100%, you've massively failed. It's trying to actually show that you can pull back too much when you're telling a macabre story. It's important that you tell the whole story, even with the parts that are hard to watch. Sorry, can I just call bullshit on this? It's just like, own it. Just own what you're doing. I haven't finished that. The next sentence is, I don't think this season is sensational at all.

1:36:35Okay. I think it's sensationally good, but it's a real deep dive into a very strange and important touchstone of the 20th century. It just so happened, this very lonely, strange, mentally ill man had this enormous cultural footprint that changed pop culture. Okay, fine. If that's what helps him sleep at night, fine. Indeed. I mean, I'm not even talking... I'd just rather... I'd rather they drop the bullshit and just go, we are making as entertaining as possible a version of this story and just be proud of it. Just be out and proud and happy with your... There's a scene in the finale where they do a musical number to only owner of Lonely Heart by Yes.

1:37:13I'm sorry. If you don't think that's your sensation... It's a no from me. If you don't think you're sensational, then it's one of the biggest failures in intent. The creator of the show is actually saying, this is what we're trying to do, is show you warts and all the disgusting stuff he did, but you didn't have to do it in the way you've done it. And it's just cheesy and embarrassing and weird and freaky. And I admit I watched the whole thing more out of fascination as to just how far are they going to go. And they went way further than I've expected. So I don't like to be moralistic about things like this at all, as I've kind of implied, but as a piece of art, it's insanely misguided.

1:37:53It's just so warped and misguided. And, you know, yeah, it's fascinating. I watched someone, one of our listeners posted, before I watched it, I mentioned on one of the social medias, saying, you know, I think I just watched the first episode, saying how beautifully filmed it was. Now it is. It's actually one of the most, I think, one of the most cinematic and well-made of all of the Ryan Murphy series. Yeah, because sometimes they can be a bit, slightly more televisual than I expected. The way it's shot, using the landscapes of Wisconsin, it looks at various moments beautiful to look at, but at the same time the hideousness of it cannot be denied.

1:38:30I think I just could not cope with the level of hideousness. It's fascinating to see how treatise will be written on this series maybe, but it's not saying anything interesting actually about the cultural impact the guy had. And the most interesting thing about it is that they went there and they've recreated these things, but to what effect? To what effect does it have? I could stop talking about it in a minute, but they recreate the dancing scene from Science of the Lambs, one of my favourite films, which I admit, you know, I admit it's fascinating because it is about a hideous crime and hideous evil monsters like Hannibal Lecter, a created figure, obviously, but they just recreate the scene where the guy's dancing in Science of the Lambs, but for what reason?

1:39:13it doesn't have any impact on everything it just shows you oh yeah maybe they're inspired by Ed Gein Thomas Harris was inspired by that in the same way that these other things were inspired by it my point with this is just because you can doesn't mean you should it's very good I could go on about it for ages which maybe is a sign of success for the show I don't know I would be fascinated to know what Steph thought of this obviously as a true crime aficionado and I'm also curious about what our listeners think because obviously I come at this from a slightly pearl clutching perspective Boyd he does not oh I'm very moralistic but I'm interested if you watched it if you liked it if you really like true crime and the different types of crime I'd be interested in hearing about it because as Kay said there's true crime and there's true crime and this is commandment is true crime I'm on board with that he's getting in touch with James or I'm no pilot tb at empire magazine dot com whack it in the post bag and we'll deal with it on pilot place Leslie Manville I mean kudos to her she's again Leslie Manville's in this Leslie Manville's in this and she okay she will not believe what she has to go through she throws herself into this fucking thing please let's move on it's extraordinary Monster then the Ed Gein story which is streaming now on the Netflix next up we have The Iris Affair which is the new show from Luther creator Neil Cross and this airs on Sky Atlantic and it sees Niamh Algar as a kind of savant like puzzle solver who's on the run from Tom Hollander's ruthless billionaire exciting Kay is of course our own savant like puzzle solver so tell us about The Iris Affair Listen, I do love a puzzle, you know that.

1:40:44Yeah, as James said, Niamh Algar plays an enigmatic genius called Iris, who has the ability to crack complex codes and puzzles, and her services are solicited by ruthless entrepreneur Karen Black, played by Tom Hollander, who is a real nasty bastard. Who plays Hitchcock, I should have said, I meant to say, in Monster. Oh. Yes. Oh, gosh, double serving of Tom Hollander. Double Hollander. Okay. anyway so he needs her to unlock a top secret piece of technology and she essentially realises the catastrophic implications of doing that and so she bolts and she takes a vital piece of information that he needs and so there's basically a deadly international game of cat and mouse and so my feeling about this is it's very beautifully shot I don't know where they filmed it, because as we've just proven from our previous conversations, different countries stand in, but it's shot apparently all across Europe.

1:41:44Italy, yeah, mainly in Italy, I think. A lot of it filmed in Florence. Yeah, beautifully shot, and the landscape and everything. In fact, at one point, she's in this sort of like upgraded shack by the water, which I was like, I definitely have two weeks there for a silent retreat. Yeah, anyway, so it is beautifully shot. my issue with this is though the stakes are high right so you know a dangerous man with means to endanger the world wants this code to be cracked and you know there's it's a what was it a topological quantum device that apparently is growing its own brain yeah one of those right I like I was wasn't invested in this piece of like technology at all So it therefore meant, I didn't care if it was awoken.

1:42:34I didn't care if the code was cracked. And don't get me wrong, they're great performances by Niamh and Tom. And her character is quite interesting. She's like this inscrutable enigma, as I said. So I found her to be particularly interesting. And obviously the game of cat and mouse is tense. But I just wasn't invested enough emotionally to want to tune in further. Do you know what I mean? I watched the first episode, I thought, oh, this is really nice, looks very nice. But because of the crucial fact of that, I wasn't invested in the central dilemma, if you like. Interesting. See, because the storytelling of this first episode is deliberately elliptical.

1:43:14And you are following at quite a distance, I think, from most of this episode before the piece has fallen into place. Because it starts kind of in media res, and then it goes back, and then it's hopping between timelines, because of course it does. and they deliberately take a long time before even remotely explaining what on earth is going on, which I didn't mind actually because it kept me interested. I was compelled enough by the performance and what was happening to me. Okay, I don't know what's happening, don't know who you are, not a clue, but carry on, this is fun. And obviously we're hopping backwards in time to how she got sort of recruited into this role and then what happened after the role.

1:43:50So I was kind of into it. the actual kind of central premise the idea like what she's what she's been hired to crack I thought was interesting and it's very current it kind of resonates I think with a lot of what's going on so I was quite invested in that but it does it does feel a little bit from what I've watched so far and I've only watched the first episode it does feel a little bit like it's almost a little incidental because all you need to know is Tom Hollander's not very nice he wants something she won't give it to him and that's really all you need to know so kind of the ins and outs of what it is Yeah, but do you find that enough to make you want to watch further?

1:44:24I was curious, yeah. I found her quite an interesting character, and I was quite compelled by what was going on. To me, this had the same sort of effect as the Leo Woodall one. Do you remember? I watched all of that. Did you? Okay, fine. All right, cool. So it's just me then. If you enjoyed the Leo Woodall one. You might enjoy this as well. What's it called? Can't remember. Hosted the Q &A. He was the mathematician, wasn't he? Yeah, it is similar. It's also a bit Lazarus Project as well. Do you think? Yeah, a little bit. I don't know that it's Lazarus. We bring you to this, there's a big HQ, visually almost, when he takes her to see the thing.

1:44:59Prime Target, by the way, was the Leo Woodall show. Oh yeah, the Prime Target numbers. It's Lazarus Project in the way that, you know, kind of genius people recruit. She's been recruited and she's shown this big, huge, big thing. The topological quantum device that's growing its own brain to think thoughts that have yet to be thought. Yes. What the fuck does that mean? I mean, see, that's true. But I think what you've crafted, Lazarus Project is very high concept. Oh, I know. But it's super fun, super funny, and the dialogue just crackles. Well, this is what I'm about to say. Yeah. It does share certain DNA with the Lazarus Project, and even a little bit, it meets Day of the Jackal, which, remember, was Sky's biggest hit, drama hit, for a long time, in the terms of chasing around lavish locations in Europe and all of that.

1:45:39It's a bit like a cross between them, but the dialogue, it doesn't have Joe Barton's zingy, brilliant dialogue, and that's what I think is missing. I enjoyed it on the level of, this is utter utter nonsense and good performances I would say Niamh Alvarez is really good in this and Tom Tom Hollander Tom Hollander is so key to it I mean she they're both great they're both equally good but as he's talking about this bullshit explanation what this huge big thing is that's like literally throbbing away in front of them and he's going this is and she keeps he keeps saying spouting this dialogue that doesn't make any sense or so ever but he sells it so well exactly which feels authentic could you say James just starts finishing all my sentences now We're finishing each other's sandwiches.

1:46:21Exactly. He sells the unbelievable bollockness of what this story is, of what this thing is. And only he, he's one of the few actors, probably, do you know what, one of the few other actors he could do is Bill Nighy, who I interviewed this week, who's on the Lazarus, Harder Combs Lazarus. Not the Lazarus Project. Not the Lazarus Project. Coming soon to this very show. But yeah, you have to have someone of that kind of like heft, right? And weight behind them, not literally, to sell the utter stupidity of what I think is the MacGuffin at the centre of the show. But I enjoyed it enough to carry on watching it.

1:46:55I have to say. I think it is very, very stylishly put together. And I think it's enough. There's just enough going on down to the performances and the actors. But the big flaw is it isn't quite as witty and funny and clever dialogue-wise, is it? But as you say, the locations are fantastic. All shot on the streets of Manchester. True story. That's not true. Oh, I heard Belgium. No, it's nice because it feels jet-setting and it has that kind of sense of place and location. I like the fact that the thing is called Charlie B. Potatoes. See, I wanted more of that. That's a funny moment when it says it.

1:47:29Actually, do you know what you've hit the nail on the head about? The dialogue. They needed to have called the Barton Bat Line. Yeah, that's what they should do. Okay, we're running out of time, so we'll say that is The Irish Affair and it's on Sky Atlantic. When, buddy? Thursday, the 16th of October, 9 o 'clock, 2025. Fabulous. Finally, this week, we've got Riot Women on BBC One. which you've already heard about, from creator Sally Wainwright, but which does star Joanna Scanlon, Tamsin Gregg, Lorraine Ashbourne, Rosalie Craig, and Amelia Bullmore, and they are the eponymous punk acts. Kay has clearly been compromised by having basked in the glory of Sally herself, so it falls to the voice of reason, Boyd Hilton, to tell us about this.

1:48:06Well, I went to a screening of this. I didn't host it, though, so I'm independent, unlike Kay, where they did a full panel discussion with all the... I thought you were about to say they did a live performance. No, no, no. That would have been great. They could. they learn the instruments I think they're thinking about it I think they did say that on the thing because yeah they've been asked as you say they've learned their instruments Tom Basden did for Ballad of Wallace Island Kay wouldn't know but obviously for those of us who've seen this exactly it's a film she might see one day I think this is Sally Warehouse's best show since The Glory Days of Happy Valley I mean she hasn't done that much since but she's done bits and pieces since certainly like Gentleman Jack Renegade Nell Renegade Nell which you mentioned earlier later series of Last Tango in Halifax, which I loved.

1:48:50But this is a bit of a classic, I think. I think it's absolutely fantastic. And it's got early scenes which remind me of Happy Valley. In fact, there's an early scene where one of the characters is a policewoman who's retiring. And on the day she retires, she has to face an extreme situation in the local supermarket that is classic Wainwright. That could be... Could have been Happy Valley. Yeah, 100%. But in a great way. Yeah. Because it's so tense and funny and difficult. and it's like, how's everyone going to get out of this situation? It's brilliant. And from then on, every single scene is working at the height of her game, her writing, that doesn't make sense.

1:49:28Her writing, she's working at the height of her own writing with the characters brilliantly, you know who these women are after about a minute of being in their company and you know kind of what kind of people they are. The very beginning, which is very bold as well, which I have seen done before, I mean, it's the premise, so I'm going to say it. Yeah, it's fine. The character's the best. thank you, Joanne Scanlon's character, is about to take her own life. And there are, there's at least, I can think of two or three films that have done that before. It's not necessarily an original idea, but the way she does it, she gets phone calls, she's getting phone calls.

1:49:58She's rolling her eyes, constantly getting interrupted. She can't even kill herself in peace, the basic bottom line of it. Exactly. It's just brilliantly done. The characters are so brilliantly well drawn. The kind of connections they have work and they seem real, even though there's, you know, in a way, some of it's like coincidental of some of the things, the way some of the characters are connected. And it's such a fantastic idea. And I'm not sure whether she mentioned in your interview Rock Follies, which was one of her big obsessions. I mentioned this before. Rock Follies was this show on ITV in the 70s, which was about a women, all female band.

1:50:33And it was brilliant. And I loved it growing up. And I know Rusty Davies is one of his big influences. And it is a huge influence on Sally Wayne Run, I think, was the initial inspiration for this show, which is different in a way. It's very different. but the Lorraine Ashbourne absolutely hilarious Tamsin Gregg brilliant but you know who steals the show for me is Rosalie Crane as Kitty she is the ultimate and I use this phrase advisedly because it's one of Terry White's least favourite phrases oh oh hot mess she is a hot mess but she is and kudos at the Q &A she was referred to as a mess because that's what she is but the more you find out about her the more the mess of her life and herself is explained.

1:51:15She's a complex character. And the secret she's jumping up on the car with her ex is just hilarious. It's fantastic. I absolutely loved it. I think it's genius. I think it's peak, absolute peak Wainwright. Yeah. And I've been a fan of Sally Wainwright since at home with the Braithwaite many, many years ago in the early days of heat. And it's phenomenal, yeah. I really hope it's a big hit. Oh, it'll be a monster hit, surely. It's fucking brilliant. You never know about these. I don't think Renegade Now was a big hit. Yeah, but I think this is more... Yeah, I mean, that got casual, didn't it? I think this is going to appeal to a lot.

1:51:44This is my whole thing, right? Completely. Because I want to see more and more and more of it. Yeah. Like, I absolutely fucking love this. And to talk to her was just like, you know, brilliant. Because I just watched all three. I mean, I was trying to like slow down because I was getting through it too quickly. I fucking love it because it's like putting middle-aged women front and center and their experiences and, you know, and each of them different experiences of what they're going through. So like for the character of Beth, who was about to take her life, she's very put upon menopausal teacher who's carrying the burden of caring for a mum with dementia where a twatty brother doesn't give a shit, just cares about the money spent on the care homes because of the inheritance.

1:52:24Overlooked at work, her son's neglecting, you know, et cetera, et cetera. And each of them have different things going on in their lives, which is so relatable and will resonate with a vast amount, you know, swathes of the audience. and that's why I think she does so well is that it's not heavy handed it's not lecturing it's not like we hate the world or anything like that but it's like this is what the reality of life is you know when you've like I even feel it and I'm at the beginning of it where you just come instantly invisible Do you feel invisible in this podcast? What the fuck I mean hello if you can't make a connection between you guys not listening to me I mean James is actually Sorry what was that going?

1:52:59He's such a dickhead See what I mean this is why people are taking Sledgehamers onto cars like Kitsie's character I absolutely have related She's going to do that in the studio I'm going to smash up your most valuable items well for me that's Boyd so you know look how he threw you under my sledgehammer not even bus sledgehammer yeah I thought it was brilliant and so I think the white hot rage that pulsates through this is absolutely magnificent but it's also it's not heavy like these heavy moments that could be really depressing and dark and bleak the Wainwright humour just cuts through it and it is uplifting and joyful because the band is the lifesaver for Beth and many of these women you know it gives them a purpose, an outlet for their anger, but also their joy, their best reconnecting to the fact that she used to play the piano and keyboard, etc.

1:53:46So like, yeah, it just feels very empowering, but also the fact that the visibility of middle-aged women and their trials on, you know... Podcasts. Podcasts, yeah, podcasts, definitely. Hashtag pray for me. But also on mainstream TV is excellent. and she's done a service to a lot of people. It's great. They're great. Yeah. We're out of time. There's nothing more to say, frankly. There's nothing more to say. Watch it. Riot Women. It's our pick of the week. Yes, 100%. Agreed. What else is on, Boydie, very quickly? Well, the Diplomat, the aforementioned Diplomat on Thursday, which we're doing Pilot Plus.

1:54:22which we'll do Pilot Plus that day to cook a bear. What the fuck is that? It's a Disney Plus Nordic crime series. A period Nordic crime series with actual bears in it on Disney Plus Wednesday. Does Jeremy Allen White star? sadly no Jeremy Allen why The Trude starts on BBC4 Saturday which is a four part French film especially really really good actually that's also a crime series highly acclaimed oh I've watched a bit of that I can endorse it oh good The Chair Company which is on Sky Comedy now from Monday the 13th at 9.45 is the latest from Tim Robinson you know who did I Think You Should Leave on Netflix which was a brilliant sketch show and he did a brilliant film called Friendship with Paul Rudd this is his new I haven't seen it yet but it's supposed to be quite wild called The Chair Company about Chaz.

1:55:04The new series of Loot. Yes, Loot's back. Who knew? Which was the one, the Apple TV Plus show, they never cancel anything with Maya Rudolph. It is back, yeah. Yeah, it's back. There's a thing called Revival on Skymax now, starting on Sunday, which is a supernatural horror noir, James. I'm on board. I don't know much more about it than that. Oh, Murdur. Oh my God, there's so much on, sorry. Murdur, the death in the family. That is a true crime series with Jason Clarke, etc on Wednesday the 15th on Disney Plus and that's yeah that's quite quite a big deal because that's a really famous case apparently which yeah Steph would definitely know about and I think that might be oh there's a documentary on Martin Scorsese starting Friday on Apple TV Plus that I've watched and it's fucking brilliant if you like Martin Scorsese and who doesn't there we go there we go that is it we are done we're out if you enjoy the podcast please do leave us a five star rating really anywhere and if you don't have anywhere to leave just write five stars yeah that's it come on just leave us ratings we've had the cake but yeah we've had the cake it's fine but we would like them anyway but otherwise just write five stars on something and just slip it into a pigeonhole somewhere and follow us on social media at PilotTVPod at Boyd Hilton at K.Ribera at James C.

1:56:12Dyer obviously on The Talk but mainly on Instagram and we'll be back next week when we'll be discussing Lazarus and you'll be talking to Harlan Coben and Bill Nighy correct exciting exciting times right leave my pigeonhole alone by the way I'm not touching that wow On that note, pilot out.