Spider-Noir, Dear England, and The Boroughs. With Guests Joseph Fiennes and Jodie Whittaker

29:26So what happens to him is, oh, God, come on. Again, it just feels like Tarantino-lite. But in fact, Tarantino-heavy, if you like, too much of down that route. So could this story have been told? Could this whole series have been told? And if it had been told with less gratuitous nudity from the female parts, would you think it would have been improved? Yeah, just a more... I think if it had just been a more equal opportunity as New Jersey, as the first couple of series were. Oh, well, you know I'm all about equal opportunity. Yeah, absolutely. And that seems to have gone by the wayside. Okay. So, yeah, and it just feels certain strands are taking way too long.

30:02Anyway, I've droned on about it more than enough. James is already losing the world to live. That was Boyd's spoiler special. I'll do a solo spoiler special when the series comes to an end. Just me picking up things I don't like about it and really annoying listeners. It's not the people, aren't Boyd? It's interesting, though. how much like you you really have taken against it and I don't think it's interesting you talking about it you know seasons one and two have some of the best episodes of TV you know the last four or five years some of them are absolutely spectacular it's the difficult third season and it is really hard because you know he's gone from all the characters I started him up again you have I know one more thing I see what you did there one more thing you see him as like the tough it is a really tough task because he's gone from two seasons set entirely within this high school where they're all based and so there's a natural way of keeping all these characters together whereas now they're all dissipated and they're out into the wild almost quite literally.

30:56It just feels very different, a completely different show and almost down to like the characters' behaviour and everything feels different about it. It's just like a complete separate thing. Anyway, that's my final word this week on Euphoria. We'll never know. James has raised eyebrows. We'll never know, James. What I really think. We're going to go into the Yellowstone universe and it's going to be lovely. It is. It's going to be great. One final sentence. Oh, there he goes. SNL UK ended last week with the Shooter Gatwa was the guest host I really feel like they've done a brilliant job on that show and we should really get behind it get behind it you were very cynical about the whole thing I was yes I think it's in a weird way because I watch American SNL usually if there's a guest host I want to see in action and in a strange way the British version is better there's something about the cast they've assembled and the writing of it and the kind...

31:50Consistently better. Is that what you mean? I think it's more consistent. Is it controversial? Because is it not generally accepted that SNL US is very hit and miss? Well, you always say that. But I don't think... It's generally accepted by you. No, but... Okay, so Nick Semley and Chris Hewer of the Empire Parish are both big old fans of SNL. And even they will admit that a lot of it isn't good. Oh, yeah. I would admit that as well. I would agree with you. Yeah, I think the bottom line is is the UK version is more consistent. Yeah. And I think, so even the sketches that seem completely random, like they did a Louis Theroux sketch last week, where they all pretended to be Louis Theroux, and then he himself...

32:26Oh, I haven't seen that one. It's brilliant. You've got to check out. It's really funny anyway. And their impressions of his shtick are so clever. The observation of how he talks and, you know, all of that. And then for him to be involved, it's really funny. And it's completely kind of random, because it's not, you know, why suddenly do you decide to do Louis Theroux? But with the American one, when they do something completely random. I always think, oh, it needs to be funnier if you're going to go random rather than topical. But they do both. The topical stuff, the political stuff, they do the Keir Starmer stuff.

32:53It's really funny. And they did a brilliant... Who's the Labour guy who's trying to be Prime Minister? Pick one. It's my mum's MP. Andy Burnham, West Streeting. West Streeting. They did a West Streeting cold open last week and it was a really good impression of West Streeting. It was really funny. So they've nailed both elements really well. Anyway, it's been recommissioned anyway. they don't need our support but it's a really good decision they don't need it but they'll you know we should give it well I am giving it I'm giving it our full full throated support even though James refuses to watch it of course he'll watch the clips I will watch the clips I've seen some clips okay watch the Louis 3 clip because we all love Louis and that will seal the deal you'll see how good it is you will and that is my final word on what I've been watching this week I thought it was going to be a brief one I thought I'd just mention the Arsenal thing it'd be fine I'll get it out of the way.

33:45He's still going. He's still going. We can't make him stop. I'm now commentating on my own commentary. It's all got very meta in here. Oh, God. Okay. Okay, it is time for this week's listener question. And this week's listener question comes from Jamie. Jamie says, this came in last week. We didn't do a listener question last week, but this would have been the question last week if we had done one last week, but we didn't, so we're doing it now. Clear? Excellent. Right. Jamie says, after having worked on the elections this week, what are the best elections on TV? Bonus points for a political campaign.

34:19I feel I have to ban In The Loop and The West Wing and Seinfeld if there's any sort of election there. Thank you, Jamie. Oh, God, that's difficult. No, I've got one for you. Oh, go on. Veep. Oh, no, I have Veep's on my list, yeah. Yeah, 100 % for you. Selena Meyer. Yeah, I mean, it's fine. I feel like when he banned In The Loop, the spirit of that probably encapsulated Veep as well but carry on very unfair oh Selena Meyer come on you can't that's an amazing one but that's not that would not be my choice okay I'm just saying that my choice is Councillor Leslie Knope of Parks and Rec oh my god that is just my favourite of all elections absolutely it cannot be outdone did you I can't even remember if you guys watched Parks and Rec I did, yeah.

35:11It was fantastic. It's fantastic, isn't it? It's absolutely fantastic, James? Nope. Okay, right. Who's yours, James? Go on. Well, so my answer, unfortunately, would have to violate the prime directive of this question because the obvious answer is one of the two main elections in the West Wing, whether it be, you know... Okay. Sorry, just read the question again. Bartlett-Ritchie or Vinick Santos. Pick one, you know. I mean, that's just outrageous. At least we were trying. All right, fine, fine, fine. I will adhere to the question. If I cannot have my beloved West Wing, which is, of course, the correct answer, I would maybe go for one of either Battlestar Galactica when Gaius Baltar, as a kind of populist insurgent candidate, unseats Laura Roslin as president of the colonies and is an absolute fucking disaster.

36:02It's almost prescient. Is that an election, though? Yes, yes, they have an election. He wins the election. Okay. and it's a complete horror show. I mean, he's temperamentally, see if you can wrap your mind around this particular idea, he's temperamentally unfit to be any kind of president or leader. So, you know, just throwing that out there. It would be either that or it might be, it might be, and it's a different type of election, the final season of Squid Game. Remember when they have to vote each time to see whether they're going to stay or not? And I think the one thing, people didn't necessarily love the final season of Squid Game, and I understand why, but I think the one thing they did really well was ratchet up the tension when it came to are you in or are you out by having the noughts and crosses things.

36:50They wore the badges. They would carry the shame of how they voted through the next game. And I thought that, you know, the first season is fantastic and is the best one still, but I really loved that idea of it and the way they would try and sort of win people over to become a nought or a cross. I thought that was a really good use of an election. purist shouldn't this be like problematic but House of Cards I don't think you can talk about an election show without talking about House of Cards yeah that's a good point House of Cards well of course you mean the American version with the man who we know the cancelled Kevin Spacey but the British version of House of Cards of course which is fantastic one of my favourite shows of that era because I'm really old but yeah and yes Prime Minister and there were you know election going on in fact his his move from being yes a minister to prime minister is one of my favourite I think it's like an hour extended episode which has his his election if you like which ends up being a coronation really but in terms of a political election themed episode of TV it's an all time great definitely and the other thing I was going to say was Rivals very recently the start of this season of Rivals begins with the backdrop of the election of Margaret Thatcher.

38:08She's in power, but I think it's her second election they're going through. And Rufus Jones, friend of the pod and all-round legend, plays Paul Stratton, who is the MP, and he gets elected in the first couple of episodes of this batch of rivals. And, of course, Rupert Campbell Black also gets elected, and then there's a whole storyline involving him. So there's a whole election-based, like the real election that happened, if you like, back in the 80s, is reflected in the storylines for the beginning of this season of Rivals. Oh, very current. Neither of you mentioned Succession. No, that's a good point.

38:43Yeah, because, yeah, in fact, the lecture stuff, when he goes to the CNN style, in fact, the Fox News style news operation, that's brilliant. Yeah, that's a good point. I'll bet you forgot about that. Yeah. Fantastic episode. There's the whole thing about should they cover the violent attack on a, do you remember that bit? There's a kind of violence breaking out, which is obviously a reference to the January riots, mob riots. January 6th, yeah. Was it 6th? Yeah. Which date? I was going to say January the 2nd. January the 2nd. Yeah, the lesser known interaction. I probably know the date better than Donald Trump, to be fair to me.

39:20Yeah, that was all brilliantly handled. Yeah, that's a very good point, yeah. I was just trying to think if there was an election element to the morning show now. Well, do you remember when Mr Burns ran for governor in The Simpsons? Yes. Of course. Do you remember this? Yes. And isn't that the one that ends with the three-eyed fish on the plate? God, I have no idea. Do you remember this? Because it has the line, which I very much enjoy, from The Simpsons, where Mr. Burns goes, Ironic, isn't it, Smithers? This anonymous clan of slack-jawed troglodytes has cost me the election, but if I were to have them killed, I would be the one to go to jail.

39:56What has just happened? Okay. Yeah, I was not expecting that. Did we both see that? Did we both see and hear it? I think it was recorded. Wow. Oh my God. That was extraordinary. Your talents are wasted here. Excellent. Get thee to Hollywood. Who knew? Who knew? You're a man of a million voices. What next? How long have you had that in your locker? Bloody hell. Do you do requests? Rory Bram, no. That was like, the energy in the room was electric. That was incredible, also, because it was quite long. I was like, looking at James, looking at you, thinking, are we both experiencing this? Oh, wow. That's brilliant.

40:49I don't know where to go from there, James, really. I think, have we ended the question now? I think so. I think we've ended the question. Jamie, I hope that answers your question. if you have a question for the Pilot TV podcast or indeed for Pilot Plus you send them into we hope it's working postbag at pilottvpod.com which I am reliably assured is now working perfectly but obviously if it isn't then pilottv at empiremagazine.com does still work but yes postbag at pilottvpod.com What other impressions can you do? You have to wait and see. This is opened up a whole new world. I do a passable Crichton from Red Dwarf but I'm going to save that for you.

41:27Do you? I mean, I would really enjoy that. Yeah. That's the most nerdy thing you've ever said, and that's a big bar. I think I've told this story in this podcast before. I tried to unleash my Crichton, not a euphemism, in a podcast alongside Chris Barry. Chris Barry, who is legitimately a former spitting image man of many voices. And then he followed that up by then doing an impression of every single member of the cast just to make me feel as small as humanly possible. He was very good. He was great. But yes, I was outclassed and ungunned. I brought a knife to a gunfight and it didn't end well.

41:58Oh my god I just feel like we've opened up a whole new side of you This is like when were you around or listening when you started playing the guitar? What the fuck? This is reminiscent No I remember this Do you remember we did a live podcast for Terry's Goodbye episode and Sarah Phelps wrote in with a request for me to play her something on the guitar and I played the theme to The Last of Us Are you Of course you did Of course you did Are you still thing? It's been a while. It's been on my list for a while. It's on the sofa list. Wow. How many chords do you know? Oh, as Phoebe Buffay said, you know, I know that one, and I know that one, and I know that one.

42:41He's doing a Phoebe Buffay impression now. Oh my God, I don't know what is happening today, but wow. Bloody hell. It's amazing. No, but I'm excited to know two things about you that I didn't know, that you are an impressionist that plays the guitar. Yes. Wow. And I do a very good impression of someone who plays the guitar. Anyway, right, let us move on from the listener question to this week's guests. And this week's guests are Joseph Fiennes and Jodie Whittaker. We should say neither one of them need any introduction whatsoever, but they are brought together this week for James Graham's Dear England and this is based on the Olivier winning stage production that recounts Gareth Southgate played by Fiennes both on stage and in this series and his transformation of the England team with the help of Jodie Whittaker's Pippa Grange, who was a sports psychologist.

43:27And Boydie, you spoke to both of them, didn't you? I did. Did you bore them to death talking about Arsenal? No, we mutually talked about Arsenal anyway, because it was very topical at the time. And Jodie Whittaker was wearing an Arsenal, as I mentioned earlier. Joseph Fiennes, what's his team? He didn't, I don't think he mentioned which team it was. Really? Yeah, I don't think. Spurs fan, don't you think? He could be, he could be. But he was absolutely delightful. and he was like, hi, call me Joe. And you went, oh, call me Boyd. He did say that. Did he? He said, hi, call me Joe. Oh, wow. I really wouldn't expect that.

44:01Yeah. So they were great together, yeah. Wow. Okay, well, here's Boydie talking to Jodie and Joe. Joseph Fiennes and Jodie Whittaker. Welcome to the Pilot TV podcast. How are you doing? Good, Boyd. Lovely to see you. Nice to see you again. I saw you at the BAFTAs from afar last night, Jodie. Yeah, you didn't say hi. I didn't say hi. Very rude. Obviously, you were surrounded by... See you next tomorrow. Well done. So a peak. Exactly. I've got too much time. Partly that as well. Were you monitoring the football that was going on at the same time? No, but my husband had his Arsenal socks on under his tuxedo and at no point did I catch him looking at his phone.

44:31I was quite impressed. Were you not getting updates? He was getting updates, but he didn't look. And then I thought it was because he was there to spot me, but he didn't want spoilers. So he was going to watch the whole thing later? It's not me. Fair enough. So he waited to get home to watch the whole thing. Yeah, I think it'll be today. I think it will have been spoiled. What do they think about the VAR? I don't know if you know, but I was at the BAFTAs yesterday. Oh, I do know. I'm so sorry. I was watching on my phone, I have to say. It was a good call, wasn't it? Of course. It was a good call.

45:03Was it your phone? Yeah. But the thing is, Danny Dye was as well. I was watching it on my phone, discreetly, and Danny Dye literally had his phone right in front of him quite clearly. And then when West Ham had the gold of salad, he had his head in his hands. He was in a state of high distress. He's a massive West Ham fan, obviously. Anyway, we're here to talk about Dear England, which you've been working, you've been doing this role. Yes, I can't get out of this waistcoat. You must have become Gareth Southgate in a very real sense. Maybe. There's, you know, it's weird how as an actor you have to sort of like write biographies.

45:36I don't know, throw fridges out a window to get into character. And somehow Gareth just landed for me. I don't know why. Maybe we were separated at birth. um but uh there's something about his character and also i grew up with him i grew up watching him and remember 96 and all the other tense moments of england's um playing on the world stage um so he just felt sort of indelibly there and you you played the role on stage which i went to see him was excellent but is there what's the difference between playing playing on stage and playing it you know up close and personal in the in a in a in a tv show where you're much more there's big close-ups on you you know is that different is that different pressure to kind of pull off the the character yeah different pressure um there's always you want to get the audience through the fun conceit of oh it's gareth or kane or sterling um the play you get away with it because if you're in the middle of the stalls and you squint everyone looks kind of like they're the real person.

46:40And the play was much more theatrical, I would say abstract in certain ways. There was never a football even on stage and there was a great freedom. And yet it's still locked into this sort of emotional authenticity of the country and the players and big themes of racism, toxic masculinity, elite athletes under extraordinary pressures at young age and all those brilliant themes that the piece is about, whether it's on television or on stage. But the television is a tough one to get. But I have to honor the makeup department. They did an incredible job, as did the wardrobe department. So there's a convergence of all these talents that work behind the camera that helped me out a lot in order to make that conceit when you get a kind of a mid or a close-up shot that we as an audience go, yeah, I can buy that.

47:32And And then once I carry, as we do as actors, carry the audience past that conceit, that they're not hung up on it, that then we enjoy those bigger, gnarlier themes. I feel the teeth are key, aren't they? Teeth are key. Yeah, they're very key. And also putting the glue in the dentures, because there's a couple of times in the show where I didn't put glue in, and out they popped. Oh, wow. Well, Jodie, this is a new role for you. Did you go and see the play? Did you? So I did see the play, but I didn't see Joe. but you know it was extraordinary and i've you know already kind of said that that amazing thing about being in a theatre and having been to the theatre so many times now you know to see friends or to be a part of something but watching something where you were in an audience of not there was such a mix of audience goers that i was like this didn't feel like being in a stereotypical London theatre audience it was so exciting and the energy and seeing something that married all the themes that Jo's talked about but also you learn so much about something you think you know everything about and actually I you know the the challenge I think I have had is that I've gone okay I'm such a stereotypical English person because all I remember is the stuff we didn't do all the things we lost and all the things we missed i don't i was i failed on appreciating so many achievements that we've gone through and now i feel like such a lot i'm a pain in the ass when there's penalties now as well because i think i know what i'm talking about look how quickly they took that yeah um but there is something so amazing to feel familiar yet be introduced to so many different elements to it that you can do in a drama you know and a documentary but because we're in this it's it's beautiful to play the beats and the spaces and the silences and to and you know it is a it is a fiction that james has written but with the most high level research and detail and did you feel do you feel your i don't know how interesting football you were before you played pippa grange in this show no i've been brought over football Well, my dad's a massive Huddersfield Town fan.

49:52As kids, I was, you know, I remember, you know, 96. But I remember seeing a grown man miss a penalty. And now, you know, I watch it and I see a little boy. And I see a young man. And it is such a transition to go, oh, my God. The kind of mum kicks in and you go, you just want to protect. Whereas as a 14-year-old, I watched a grown-up, something happened. You know, and it's interesting. But I think I'm now, you know, I love football and I love the coming together of it, the huge tournaments. But what is brilliant is that this show isn't just for like the audience members show that, you know, you've said before, it's like 50, 50 percent of people who are going to see it because they love football are going to the show because they love theatre.

50:44And all of the audience love the play. so that tells you that this isn't just for a football fan and you seem to become an honorary Arsenal fan clearly because you're wearing look I've got my hands yeah I've lived in North London a very long time and my entire family there is Arsenal Arsenal member of the year all over so I've you know I've always liked you Jo I've danced between and I've danced between and I've danced out so perfectly in my life but I've worn this not only for you but just also for Jo absolutely Spurs no I'm joking I have to say, you were talking about the difference in the theatrical experience and the show, because it was quite impressionistic, wasn't it?

51:25But I love the way that the games and the key historic moments are still quite impressionistic now. It's all kind of dark in the background and there's like a very interesting glow to the pitch. It's done very interestingly, isn't it? Was it like watching that back? What's it like watching that back? Watching it back, the visual element of the whole, the way that it's been dramatised. on on the tv yeah yeah because the theater was as devil an amazing kind of uh stage um and design uh watching it back um what i was really taken with was the archival footage and how that's all been bedded in um obviously i knew the arc and the story and you know now i read it but then the reactions of the people and the fans and cutting to that which they did brilliantly it was a huge kind of tapestry of stitching all of that archival stuff towards James's script.

52:18But yeah, it's a very moving piece. It's a very uplifting piece. It's completely, I feel, it's just the right timing for the World Cup. Isn't it amazing to think, you know, it's the same amount of time from 66 to 96, from 96 to now. Is there something in the maths here? Maybe. Talking about being moving, I have to say, I mean, it's not a spoiler because everyone knows what happened but the Bakayosaka penalty miss that moment is devastating and it's so dramatically conveyed in the show I was in tears I have to say watching it because I love Bakayosaka particularly because that whole build-up to that is brilliantly done isn't it and as you say penalties was key because one of Pippa Granger's earliest triumphs was getting them to think about penalties in a different way isn't it and yet in the end Bakayosaka still missed one this is the thing that's so fascinating about it is you can't there's no point replicating football in its you know replicate a 90 minute match we get it every weekend and midweek you can that adrenaline and that there's no point trying to make that the drama the drama is what happens in those conversations and also the the the idea of what what is a team what is a team how do you make a team these players don't play together every day every week they don't train together you forget like they've had such a long season now and they're about to go into a brand new dynamic and that I think was handled so beautifully by Gareth Southgate in that way of trying to bring people together which football does in its most positive but it also it highlights when we're at our worst as individuals.

53:50It's interesting that Gareth in this version of events tried to bring the country together as football does brings the country together by writing directly to them as a response to just a few, an ugly few, who didn't have quite the same reaction as you do about losing. So you might be emotional about Saka. But what about him having to carry the abuse after the emotional loss? And that's something that, you know, we have to be cognizant of. How do you play for your country when there's parts of your country that abuse you when you're at that level of youth and pressure and on a world stage. So I think what's great about this, and Gareth writing, Dear England, I think that's the first time anyone in sports has probably gone right out there.

54:38And he's not the kind of character that is, he's quite shy and reserved, as we know. But to go out and write a letter to the nation, to bring them together, not because of winning, but because of the reaction to losing, is an interesting thing. So the big thing within this is winning, great. We all want to win. But it's how you lose. And it's how a country can deal with loss as an individual deals with loss. And I think that's the sort of bedrock of the piece. Have you both met your respective real-life counterparts? I haven't. No. Have you met Gareth yet? I've met Pippa. She came into rehearsal.

55:16She was extraordinary and wonderful. Lee Dixon also came in which was great to give us insight from a player's point of view I never got to meet Gareth James met Gareth James Graham, our writer I was going to go on the train up to the FA up to St George's when we were just beginning this and I got mysteriously bumped and I never got to meet the man but then, you know a year later or two I got a tap on the shoulder at an event and I turned around and there was me It was Gareth Of course That's fantastic Were you there when Lee Dixon was helping out I didn't work on the play So I was really lucky Because I went to see it at the theatre So I saw her and saw The Incredible Actress Liz White Playing Pippa And I think that's a really wonderful thing That with this you do feel like You have an opportunity To play a character in your way Because I'm not playing someone so familiar to the public so there's definite traits and Liz certainly her accent was we both kind of It's quite a mix isn't it?

56:27It's a mix of an Australian like lilt I think and kind of the sing song of it but then also it is someone who is English but had lived there for such a long time and I think that that's the interesting thing is you can play real people and if there's different pressures on that because I was playing someone who isn't necessarily familiar but then there is the, obviously for the players as well they're replicating people that have a voice that you recognise have certain physicality that you recognise so there's just different challenges with it. And what's the one thing you've learnt from playing, taking this role?

57:08Don't take a penalty really quick. exactly you know Arsenal have this brilliant thing they do do you know about this where a player grabs the ball and then they hold on to it for quite a long time and then they give it to the actual person who's going to take the penalty which is kind of their version of what Pippa well this is it and I think there's so many things to learn but I think yeah I would say Pippa has written a book called Fear Less and when I listened to that on Audible through you know a way in and being able to kind of do the research on it I also thought everyone should read this or listen to it as I did.

57:41And there is, you know, of course, you know, the psychology and the mental health aspect should go hand in hand with elite sport, but it should start at a really young age. And I think that that is something that hopefully might be implemented, but also just the foresight that Gareth had to bring someone like Pippa in. And it's kind of fascinating that it isn't, you know, a necessity. Sven actually said. Yeah. It was Fenn that Gareth had heard saying England needs a psychologist. Well, it's a fantastic adaptation, I think. It's so well done. I think it's fantastic. Congratulations. Thank you very much.

58:18Thank you very much. That was Joe and Jodie and Boydie. And it's time now for this week's news. What have you got for me, Steph? Okay, I'm going to... We've got to mention the thing that you definitely won't want to mention, okay? And it's the fact that Strictly has unveiled its three hosts. Do we actually need to mention that? Let's just quickly address it. on that. It is big TV news. It's big TV news. Okay. Right. Okay, well, have you ever watched an episode of Strictly? No! Fine. There were these two women. One was called Tess and one was called Claudia. And they used to host it. Right. Okay?

58:51They're not doing it anymore. Right? And now we've got... That's not the breaking news. The breaking news is now we've got Josh Widdicombe, Emma Willis, and Johannes, a former pro who is one of the best pros ever. Charismatic as hell. And my God, beautiful and everything, wonderful. But I don't know why they've turned to a trio. I'm surprised. Is it because they just think the power of the three against the, you know, unstoppable Tess and Claudia, they've got to do it. I mean, all three of them I really like, but I'm not sure how it's going to work, what they're going to do. I love the dynamic between, you know, Tess on the floor, Claudia up in the heavens.

59:32I just don't know, Boyd, what do you think? Yeah, it's a very interesting point. James is particularly fascinated by it. Particularly, we can tell. Catch up on your correspondence. That's what I'm doing. Literally, rudely, what he's doing. It's fascinating because it is genuinely fascinating if you're interested in television as a whole. It is. This is a television-based podcast. You keep going, my friend. Because it does signal that they are changing the format somewhat. I mean, inherently, they have to be. Of course they do. Unless you get, you know, Emma Willis. So I'm assuming, I think we're all assuming, Emma Willis is the lead presenter.

1:00:10She is. On the floor, as you say. Normally you'd have maybe Josh Whittacombe as the kind of, because Claudia was the funny one to some extent in her role on the upstairs interviewing them as they come off the stage, having done their thing. So that would make sense. But then where does Johannes fit in? Is he in a new, it feels like his is the role that feels like he's going to be new. Because it doesn't make sense to make him the one. Because they've got the funny guy. haven't they they've got the funny guy they've got the presenter woman who can also be funny we don't get me wrong yes she can but there's been a lot of I think unfair attacks on Josh Widdicombe why let me just say I kind of know Josh Widdicombe he's a great guy he's a really funny comedian he spent I was nominated for a BSME or British Society Magazine editors award last year and he was hosted them he hosted the awards and he spent literally I'm not kidding you this is not me doing an incredible egomaniacal we'll be the judge of that we'll be the judge of that he literally spent the first five to ten minutes of his shtick talking about me because I think I was one of the few but he kind of knew vaguely so he talked about Arsenal me being an Arsenal fan so his material of his first bit of presenting these things was built around me so I love him I think he's great you love him and people complain he's not glamorous enough and you know what?

1:01:28because the whole show is sequins and glamour and suits and you know it is that thing isn't it So it's surprising that it's gone down the Joshua Riddick. I have to say. I don't think it is. But he can deal with all that. He'll be great. But it's just, it's a bold move to get these three people doing it. And we'll have to see how it works out. Because James is running out. James is running out of... Energy. I'm sorry. Did someone say my name? So anyway, there's a dancing show that some people watch. But you don't need to know about it. We've explained it now. Okay. It's fine. Peter Jackson has revealed that he did talks to adapt further works by the Lord of the Rings author J.I.R.

1:02:07J.R. Hartley. J.R. Hartley. Tolkien, including... I really want to get this right. Go on. The Silmarillion. The Silmarillion, yes. Say that again? Silmarillion. The Silmarillion. Can I just, is this a TV story or a film story? Well, I just want to keep him happy. Is it a film? Is it a film or a TV? I think it might be a film. Right, okay. Does it make him happy? I mean, sure. It makes Boydy happy because Lord Rings is famously, famously Boydy's favourite film. Bring it on. I'm doing a number crunch. Hold on. Over to you, Boyd. It could be a TV project. Let's say it's a TV project. Let's say it's a TV project.

1:02:45it almost certainly won't get made so it doesn't really matter we don't have to cut it out why won't it get made? I'm just saying there's a lot of ringsy stuff in the works at the moment you've got Andy Serkis who's doing the Hunt for Gollum film you've got Stephen Colbert the newly unemployed Stephen Colbert doing he's doing a Lord of the Rings film as well so yeah there's a lot of Middle Earth action going on at the moment and the Lord of the Rings which is returning this year yeah that's right okay he's not made it clear whether it's going to be TV or film it's almost any of a film yeah no he's just not going to carry on you go on I will go on the BBC put out the first clips and images for I think one of the most exciting comedicers of the year called The Reluctant Vampire have you heard about this no it's created by Robin Neil Gibbons who write Alan Partridge these days they're both fantastic writers they've transformed Alan Partridge into the brilliant modern phenomenon that he is now they've been such an important part of injecting him with, you know, modernity.

1:03:46What am I talking about? I don't know what. I don't know where, well, that's how that sentence is going. I retract that sentence. Anyway, they've created this show, which is about the son of a vampire family who is half human and is reluctant to be a bloodsucker like his family. And the cast is fantastic. We've got Sean Clifford is the mum from Fleabag. Tom Davis, big Tom Davis. Oh. Yes. The man, the legend. 100 % going to watch that now. Exactly, from King Gary. etc. Fame. Lenny Rush of course is the reluctant vampire of the title. Of course. Bill Bailey's in it. Ross Noble's in it. Ross Noble?

1:04:23I haven't seen Ross Noble for ages. Ashton Chowdhury's in it from People Just Do Nothing. Joe Wilkinson's in it. Oh this is going to be a hit. Yeah. The cast is incredible and it looks really good. James is like is it? Yeah he is a bit like that. Oh and Charlie Cooper from This Country's in it. I keep finding more. Esther Smith from the Apple TV show about getting trying trying I knew it was there in my brain somewhere anyway it's all that is I think a really excellent gathering of talents of writers stars concept etc the Creed spin-off series Delphi yes yes so this is are you excited about that I'm cautiously excited I enjoy the Creed films quite a lot more than the latter Rocky films by some significant margin so yeah I'm interested to see where it goes I'm not like a massive boxing fan but this Oh, you don't have to be a boxing fan.

1:05:14No, I don't think you do. No, because it's, you know, it's an underdog story. Yeah, it's great. Yes, exactly. So, Michael Jordan has cast two of his fellow Wire alums, Andre Royo, the legend, Bubz himself. I know, but I'm not saying that correctly, am I? Andre Royo. I'm saying that right? Yeah, okay. And Wood Harris. So that's exciting. And he's saying he's cast them because he loves them and he was inspired by them, which I think is really nice because Michael B. Jordan is so great. Oscar winner Michael B. Jordan he is wonderful okay did either of you watch the latest trailer for Lanterns no which is the DC series no I didn't but I want to now yeah I must admit I struggle sometimes with the DC stuff I know I do too I'm not a DC girl I'm a Marvel girl 100 % I'll you know put my hands up I'm also a Marvel girl and I don't really I don't really get on with the DC stuff that much you know I enjoyed the first season of Peacemaker, let's say the second season.

1:06:13You hated Superman, didn't you? I profoundly hated Superman. I think everything they've done with Superman has been awful and it really upsets me. Everything from Richard Donner and Christopher Reeve. Are you slagging off Christopher Reeve? No, no, no, I'm saying since Christopher Reeve, I think everything they've done with Superman has been... I've got some time. I mean, look, Superman Returns is flawed, but there's some good stuff in there. Do you know what? Man of Steel, very heavily flawed, but again, there is some good stuff in there. films by the way but anyway I know but you know is it good the trailer the trailer yeah it's intriguing it's intriguing I'm quite give us a little bit like what happens in it well so you've got Hal Jordan the original Green Lantern and that's Coach from Friday Night Lights yeah and then you've got you've got Aaron Pierre who's kind of like the replacement Green Lantern he's coming in and so he's learning the ropes and the ring and the magic and the powers and the things so it's basically Green Lantern it is but it's lanterns so it's like the passing of the torch there we go jinx the passing of the ring from one lantern to another so that was a good trailer enjoyed that there was a trailer for the agency season 2 remember with Michael Fassbender as Martian the agent people swear by that show which I think is another one I didn't finish I think it was one of these things where we if I recall because I didn't watch all of it but I know Jordan not Hal Jordan but our Jordan Jordan King watched it and very much enjoyed it is that Martian himself that you can't quite get to grips with in the first one but I think he's definitely sort of like neurodivergent coded and I think that I think once you kind of get your head around that I think that maybe makes more sense The original French show on which it was based everyone was saying how brilliant that was and I think there was a general consensus it's maybe unfair of me to say so but the American version wasn't as good It wasn't as good as the French one Perhaps But it has its fans Yeah It has its fans so that's coming about and I have to say the trailer for this one I was on the one hand I thought oh this makes me quite interested makes me want to go back to it but also this trailer does an awful lot of spoiling of season one like there's a lot of sort of recap-y stuff in there so I didn't really want to know all that thanks but nevertheless that's now on our radar a little bit more firmly alright here's another another trailer East of Eden got a trailer this is Netflix's Zoe Kazan's adaptation of East of Eden which is going to be on Netflix John Steinbeck novel I've read it are you big Steinbeck fans you are?

1:08:37I'm a big Steinbeck fan because I did American literature at university. Do you know why? You keep meaning to ask. I didn't know what you did, actually. American Studies, brackets literature. Is that what your degree's in? Yeah, that's what my degree's in, yeah. So basically, all the great American authors, certainly we did loads of Steinbeck, yeah. And East of Eden is fantastic. Do you know, I went to see Chris O'Dowd when he did Of Mice and Men in Broadway, and it was absolutely wonderful. With? With, what's his name? Someone really good. Franco, James Franco. James Franco? I did it with James Franco.

1:09:06It's got controversial, of course. That's what I'm saying. it was controversial it was very controversial it happened just kind of after that but yeah that was one of the greatest theatre performances I've ever seen it was amazing anyway back to East of Eden East of Eden if you've seen the trailer Florence Pugh is in it she plays Cathy you've got Mike Fisus in it Hun Lee my beloved Hun Lee from all of Jonathan Trapper's shows is in it Kieran Hines Martha Plimpton Christopher Abbott's in it I don't know East of Eden at all having never read the novel and I have I seen the adaptation of it I'm not sure it's like an epic journey it is it's got all the budget here You've got sweeping planes and vistas and period costumes.

1:09:42It makes sense to do it. It's quite a long, big book. It's like a hefty tome. Unlike, My Simone's quite a slim volume. Oh, it's very slim. So it makes sense for East of Eden to be a sprawling, big, streaming epic. My Simone's a novella, isn't it? It's called, it's a novella. Yeah. According to Wikipedia. Well done. Thank you. There you go. Steph knows how Steinbeck. Yeah. There was a little bit of news. Donald Glover is returning for Mr. and Mrs. Smith season two. I thought he wasn't. But behind the camera. Yes, I read that. I love Donald Glover. He's directing. That's absolutely right. Do you know who is in it, though?

1:10:15Who? Francesca Scorsese. Yes, I saw that. Welcome, welcome. Nepo Baby. Nepo Baby Francesca Scorsese. Yes, but you know what? Still good, though. There was a whole discussion of Nepo Babies on another podcast recently, and I kind of agree. I think I'm okay with Nepo Babies in general. I honestly couldn't give a shit about Nepo Babies. I don't think it matters. As long as they do... I feel like the nepo babies that aren't good at stuff, they're just not nepo babies. You just don't know about them. They're just famous people's children. Do you know what I mean? But nepo babies, like, they're doing something to get them recognised.

1:10:47They're probably doing something good. And if they're not that good, then they just fall by the wayside. Who cares? Let nepo babies just survive. I think it's whether they acknowledge it or not that gets me. It's the ones that kind of pretend it hasn't helped me at all. It hasn't, you know, even it hasn't landed my position in the room to be considered for a role. It's all that. that is annoying. If you're up front and open about it, you're like, yes, I've got where I am, partly because my mother and father or whatever are famous people. I'll give you a situation at the moment. So I'm watching Running Point Season 2, which has in it Chet Hanks, okay?

1:11:19Right. Oh, bless him. And the main star is the daughter of Goldie Hawn and Kurt Russell. Yeah, so, right. But the Chet Hanks, he's the kind of nepo baby that people have problems with because... Because you're not very good. No, he is good. And he is in his perfectly fine in this role because he sort of plays a version of himself that would be a basketball player okay so he's kind of like a a drug addicted basketball player blah blah blah right but he's the kind of nepo baby that people go right well he wouldn't he doesn't need to be in that role any other actor could have played that role so i get what people like take umbrage with nepo babies from that point of view but when they're in you know kind of behind the scenes and producing and stuff like that i feel like well you know of course everyone would do whatever they could to get access into the industry they want to be in you can't constantly say oh you'd never have got there if it wasn't for that do you know what i mean i think it's a bit harsh on some people yeah you're talking more about behind the scenes i think it's i think it's more controversial when it's up front yeah when it's when it's like you know i'm harper beckham's line of um what is she's got coming up for skincare range yeah that is that is i you have to draw the line somewhere and that is where it's drawn oh i don't know i just don't have an issue with them if her range is rubbish, no one will buy it.

1:12:29That's what I believe. I disagree. I disagree with what you're saying. That's clearly not true. I don't think it'll survive. I don't think she'll have the longevity. It's not like, it's not like Brooklyn Beckham, look, we're going into a whole different territory. We are, yes. It's not like having 12 different careers. But anyway, Francesca Sosgesi, we don't have a problem with, do we? Yeah, no. No, not at this stage. We'll see when we see the show. Yeah, exactly, yeah. Any other news? Oh, you'll be really upset about this. Netflix has confirmed that Lincoln Lawyers Season 5 is going to be its last.

1:12:56Are you going to be all right with that? I mean, I'll be fine. I won't be fine because I really like it. Do you? Yeah, I do. I thought it was fine, but it's no Bosch. Look, of course it's no Bosch. I mean, that's unfair. Like, that's a totally unfair comparison. I mean, is it? Yes. I mean, it's all part of the Bosch-iverse. Well, okay, all right. I think it's an unfair comparison. I don't even see them really, no, I think. I mean, they're half-brothers, Steph. They're literally related. The shows are so different. Well, yes, obviously, because Netflix owned the rights to Mickey Haller and Prime owned the rights to Harry Bosh.

1:13:30Okay, we're going to take this off air, you know, because it's going to get nasty. That seems reasonable. Right, should we move on to this week's reviews? Yes. Let's do that. Okay, first up this week, we have Spider Noir on Prime. And for those of you who watch the animated Spider-Verse films, Nick Cage's Spider Noir is the kind of overcoat and hat-sporting monochrome Avenger, you know, he's kind of old Spidey reimagined as if he was in a 1950s detective story, right? So this series, which comes from Oren Uziel and Steve Leitfer, is live action, not animated. So Cage gets to kind of don the cowl for real, in the flesh, as it were.

1:14:04And in an unusual twist, this show is available either in the intended black and white or in full Technicolor. So Spider Noir or Spider Couleur, if you will. Anyway, to discuss this story, let's get a black and white appraisal from our very own superhero, the Boyd Wonder. Isn't it the 30s? You said the 50s. I was going to say that. Well, I think the golden age of noir is the 40s and 50s, isn't it, really? I think it's 30s. Yeah, but I think it's explicitly set in the 30s. It's set in the 30s. Well, it's prohibition, isn't it? So I guess it would be. Yes, all right, fine, fine. Don't end it out.

1:14:37I was thinking, no, I'm leaving it in. I was thinking, no, I was thinking, you are right, this is set during that period. It 100 % is set in the 30s. Okay, apologies. Apologies for my decades. James being wrong about it. I can't believe you haven't... I know, superhero-based... Yeah, but also I can't believe if you have not mentioned in your intro that this is the first time that Nick Cage has done TV. I mean, it is, isn't it? It's the first time he's led a TV show, isn't it? This is his first TV show. Is it his first time he's ever been on TV? This is his first TV show. Okay, hang on. You're very firm on this.

1:15:07Number crunch that, it is, because I watched an interview with him about it and he said that he had waited for something incredibly special and the incredibly special thing for him was black and white and colour element. Spider Noir. That particular element he liked. He really liked that. He really did. I'm looking. You might be correct. Oh, my God. I think I've been correct twice. Two things you've been right about. I mean, this is upsetting. What's happening? It's not good. Come on. This is upsetting. You must have appeared in something on television. No, no, no, no, no. I'm not seeing anything.

1:15:39Oh, God. Wow. It turns out... Well, he was on a TV movie in 1981. Do we count? No, we're not counting that. Okay, fine. Steph is correct. Steph is correct. Wow. Yeah. We're going to need to have some sort of jingle when this happens, when I get something right. Steph is correct. Steph is correct. Steph is correct. Steph is correct. Steph is correct. Yeah. Wow, anyway, sorry, Boyd. 60 % of all his roles are, in fact, TV roles. I knew you were going to do that. Boyd, over to you. Sorry, carry on. So, as James said, this is like Nicolas Cage's character, who is the spider, but he's kind of retired from being a kind of age-old superhero, Spider-Man type figure in the city, in New York in the 30s.

1:16:31And he's now a kind of private detective, isn't he? And it's clearly like a homage to and celebration of film noir. And by the way, talking of my degree in American Studies Brackets Literature, one key element of the whole thing was we did an extensive course on American film noir. Oh. What's your favourite Noir, Boydie? Well, I love the Maltese Falcon and the Big Sleep. Maltesers are great. Love them. Yeah. God, that's terrible. You. Do you bite the chocolate off before you have the little honeycomb multi-middle bit? I do a bit. No, everybody knows. What do you think about white chocolate Maltesers?

1:17:06Oh, absolutely not get fucked. Really? What? No. Criminal. James' face is horrifying. It's disgusting. What about the Malteser Bunny? It's already Maltesers though, Yes, it is Maltesers. I do quite like the Malteser. No, but also you're both wrong because what you do is you get a cup of tea and you put Malteser in your mouth and then you drink the tea and then it kind of melts away. Oh, it's lovely. You know where there used to be boxes of Maltesers? There is. I mean, there still are. I only have my Maltesers out of a box, strictly. I only eat them out of a box. I thought they discontinued the boxes.

1:17:37No, no. Clearly, I realised that when I went to see a play recently and they had boxes, yeah. Do you think that's a weird choice for a play because it's quite noise-making to unwrap the box? Is a box more noisy than a wrapper? The crinkle. The crinkly. Yeah, I'm saying it probably is. When you get the box, the lovely, oh, whoa, the lovely sound. When you get the box, the lovely sound of the Maltese is all rolling around. It's possible. Possible we've got sidetracked. Oh, yeah, sorry, carry on. Anyway, how did we get on to that? Maltese Falcon. Maltese Falcon. Brilliant. Yeah, so I love film noir.

1:18:09It's one of my favourite genres. A lot of my favourite films are film noir films. Okay. Let's just get that out of the way. so I liked visually it's beautiful okay first and foremost did you watch it in colour black and white I was going to say the whole point of it is that it's black and white it's kind of as I say it's kind of referencing all of those beautifully contrasted black and white monochrome films so I don't think there's any point in not watching it in black and white Steph how did you watch it how do you think I watched it colour I don't know if you maybe did what I did where I watched the first episode of Black and White and the second one in colour to see how they measured up to each other.

1:18:50Do you know what I did? You flipped between the two. Yes! How did you know that? I was like the whole way through going, what's this like? Oh, what colour's her dress? Oh, I'm amazed you like that. Anyway, sorry, boys, carry on. Could I just, just on this point, just while we're talking about the colour, it's like, I'm assuming, I have not spoken to the showrunners, I'm assuming the idea was they made this deliberately in Black and White but I would assume and Prime said to them no no no no because anyone gen Z or younger is not going to fucking watch it so you're going to have to do it in colour as well I know the answer to this because I watched this interview so basically what happened with my friend Nick so what happened was they wanted they wanted to originally just do it in black and white which is why he got on board because he loved the whole idea but they were nervous and Nick said why don't we try and see if we can do it in both I'm sure it can be done it's his idea I'm sure it can be done let's see if we can do it in both and then that's what happened They just assumed it was a studio note, and they were like, absolutely not.

1:19:46No, I think that is, I think the crux of it is that they were nervous that it wouldn't be successful. Of course. I think rightly so. I think certainly younger viewers probably would have struggled with watching it in black and white. Just on that particular point, I will let you go back to it in a second, already. Having watched one in both, the colour is terrible. And I don't mean like it's done, but it looks really goofy in colour. it just doesn't work do you know what it looks like incredible you know when you watch those things like World War 2 in colour yeah it looks colourised it does it genuinely looks like colourised I have to say I really like that yeah I really like that about it it's got I don't know it has like a Dick Tracy vibe I couldn't yes I really liked it I really liked that I couldn't get on with it at all whereas I think the monochrome is so striking because his suit is so black and you have the white eye pieces in it like the whole thing is clearly framed and lit and shot to be presented in black and white and you know yes it's if you want to layer into the whole noir-ness of it the black and white adds to that but I just think it just doesn't feel like it was made for colour no it isn't though it didn't work for me so I watched the first one black and white the second one in colour I was like I'm not going back to colour that was a horrible experiment let's never do it again do you love the way we asked you to talk about this show please tell us Boidy about spider noir you know it's absolutely fine it reminded me of the Colin Farrell penguin suit right yes okay in that It functions perfectly well as a kind of crime noir thriller in its own right, as did the Penguin show.

1:21:19It didn't have to have... It could have just been, you know, that character... Well, the Penguin has no superpowers in it. No, I know. Which this does. I'm not saying they're exactly the same. I'm just saying... I'm saying they're similar in the sense that you could sit there watching the whole thing and not have any connection at all with the original thing. This has got a lot more spidery elements to it, as you see as it goes on. there's like a Sandman figure who's literally turns into sand in Spider-Man 3? 2 or 3? 2? In the films it's Spider-Man 3 and then Brendan Gleeson my friend Brendan Gleeson Aston Villa fan who sat next to me for Aston Villa last season he pops up as a kind of Irish mob boss which is like a role he can do it in his sleep but it's still a joy to see him because he's so brilliant and everything there's a femme fatale figure called Cat, played by Lee Jun Lee, and she's at the heart of this kind of mystery that drives the whole show.

1:22:16But, I really enjoyed it, actually. Partly because I just thought, as a tribute to film noir, as a celebration of film noir, and visually, it's in black and white, but I wouldn't even consider bothering with the colour. It looks great. It's fantastic looking. It's got the voiceover from him maybe a bit too much for my liking, but it fits in again because a lot of those films did have a kind of noirish voiceover you know kind of that they then took if you like for Blade Runner Harrison Falls Blade Runner narration is inspired a lot by film noir narrations anyway I think it works pretty well I'm not that bothered about the central storyline but in a way that's also in itself quite accurate when it comes to film noir because a lot of film noir the interesting things about it as I wrote about it in many essays that I wrote when I was a student is it doesn't matter what's going on.

1:23:10That's where MacGuffins come in, you know, the famous Hitchcockian MacGuffin. Like, it's about stuff. It could be about nuclear waste or it could be about a Maltese falcon, you know, object. The actual machinations of the story, the mystery at the heart of this thing are kind of irrelevant. Well, The Big Sleep makes no fucking sense at all. No, yeah, exactly. To the point where, yeah, absolutely. And then you go up to more modern film like Chinatown where it's kind of like ends up without any resolution. And that's all very, you know. But the genre as a whole, you don't even need to care that much about what's going on but the whole kind of atmosphere of it and the characters and the performances and the way it's shot all add up to a really lovely celebration of that genre so I enjoyed it on that level I don't really care at all about what's going on which is fine I think I thought it had hints of a show James and I like Sugar another Colin Farrell show would you agree with that?

1:24:05It certainly has aspects of that to it. It has notes of it. Yeah, I really, I thought this was really beautifully shot. I love anything with it, like old New Yorkian, I absolutely lap up anything like that. So the 1930s New York, and I thought what Nicolas Cage does so well is he just sounds, just even his speech, the rhythm, the pattern of his speech, he sounds like an old 1930s detective. He's described it as 90 % Bogart, 10 % Pugs Bunny. Oh, he's kind of perfect for that, isn't he? So that makes it feel incredibly authentic. But the one thing I would say about this, I only watched one of them, and it takes...

1:24:49I'm waiting for him to appear as Spider Noir. And this isn't a spoiler to say, it doesn't happen in this first episode, does it? like in the first episode until right at the end and I had then I went on to watch like what happens in the rest of Spider Noir because I was like I want to see what happens I thought it was it took a very long time to establish him in that Manhattan setting in that you know you know you understand that something tragic has happened which is why he's not Spider Noir anymore and that just felt really laboured for me and the secretary thing it just felt like I found that pacing I thought I think the pacing of the first episode is wrong for people who are coming to this and dealing this sounds ridiculous saying dealing with black and white but you know some people who might not i'm worried i worries me that people know oh it's black and white oh you don't get enough action i mean in the last 10 minutes you do get a good bit of action and there's some you know there's a fantastic fight scene at the end of it but it takes a really long time to get to it and the other thing this sounds like i didn't like it and I did like it but the other thing which I seemed really out of place is there's a scene where he goes he's chasing down chasing down a woman and he goes in and she's a singer and the scene where she sings in it and she's almost like she almost starts she sings an old song but in a poppy way and I really that really jarred with me so a couple of bits in this and I think those bits which are trying to bring in and the audience which I thought no I actually thought it should have stayed more faithful to the film noir, I suppose, was what I'm saying.

1:26:29And it's just a couple of bits that I didn't like, and I don't think for me, and people who are looking for spider noir are going to get that hit. But, I mean, I'm assuming you stick with it and you get more, because from what I've seen from the trailer, for the rest of it, it's great. But I did think this was quite slow to begin with. I'm sorry. You were going to say it's a masterpiece. Well, interestingly, Alex Godfrey of the Empire magazine gave this the full five stars. Oh, God, he's a maverick. He's a loose cannon. And so I was very, very excited to watch this. And I have to say, I was somewhat baffled by the five-star review.

1:27:03I'm so glad because I was worried I'd got this totally wrong. Not that I... And Alex is a maverick, to be fair. But I very much respect Alex as a film critic. But I don't think... And I haven't read his review, so I'd be really interested to read it and see what he got. He's seen the whole thing, to be fair. I thought it was really good, and I thought it was ambitious. I thought it was stylistic. I thought the way it was shot was great. I enjoyed what Nick Cage was doing in that kind of Bogart-esque gumshoe role that he did but the story is pretty lightweight isn't it? and I think it's an interesting twist that it's a mob boss but the idea is that there are people with powers and they're like oh there are people with powers you know there's a Sandman I think who else there's like Electro and Lizard like classic Spider-Man villains but they have a much more realistic you know noir-esque hint noir-esque twist on those characters and that's great and it works within the noir paradigm but I was never gripped and I watched the second episode predominantly because I wanted to see if I'd missed something but also because I wanted to see one in colour but I'm not really being swept along by this so all in all I'm thinking it's good and it's admirable and it's really well made and I love that it's original and I would recommend people watch it but I'm definitely not in a five-star camp.

1:28:23Like, not even close. Did you think the pace was slow for the first episode? It is slow. I guess that's not unusual for the genre, to be fair. But, yeah, I did. Did you know? I was like, when is Spider Noir coming out? It wasn't even the lack of Spider. It wasn't even so much the lack of Spider Noir. Sorry, where is he? I suppose I wasn't the kind of Bacall-esque femme fatale figure. It was interesting. I understood her role, but I wasn't that invested in that aspect of it. There's a whole thing with the mayor and a photograph and another case. And I was like, the story isn't really carrying me.

1:28:55Which is what you're saying. Which is what you're saying. We shouldn't care too much about that. But equally, I hate to say it with this, I didn't find myself caring enough about the characters. And I include old Spidey in that as well. I didn't feel invested. I think the problem is, is that it's all very well to have a story that doesn't really matter that much in the original films noir, or film noirs. Which one? films noir films noir because they were you know 90 100 minute stories self contained stories when you're unveiling an 8 hour epic you know TV show it's different and I don't think it is gripping enough what happens to to entice you into carrying on watching it even so yeah this is immediate that's what I was trying to say as much as I enjoy being in the company of this whole thing the atmosphere of it and the cast and the characters and there's some good dialogue some quite funny it's quite wryly funny yeah which again a lot of noir was back in the 40s and 50s, you just think, this is not going to be, I'm really keen on watching the rest of, I don't know, the one I've done the reverse ferret on.

1:29:58Widow's Bay. Widow's Bay. I really want to watch the rest of that now, much more than I do want to watch the rest of this. Yeah, this isn't the masterpiece. I've read a couple of things which people have said this is a masterpiece, and it isn't. Well, on top of Alice Godfrey's Maverick Review and Empire. Yeah, I read something this morning that said it was a masterpiece, and I don't think it is. Oh, God, no. No. Sorry, Alex. No, we love Alex. We love Alex. Spider Noir, then, which lands on Prime Video, which we do recommend and we think is good. No, it is good. We definitely think people should see it.

1:30:27It is good, but I think, one, it's not going to be the thing people think it is, and two, it isn't propulsive. Yes, agreed. Agreed. Propulsive is not the word for that. It is not propulsive. But you might think, you might think, Spider Noir, you know, do you know what I mean? I don't think it's as exciting as you, I wanted it to be. No, no, no. But do, if you are going to watch it, and I do think people should watch it just see what it is do watch it in black and white not in colour please yes authentic black and white not true hue full colour which is the official I think I can watch it in colour because there's some nice colourful things but it does look like a PBS Technicolor thing that they've coloured in yeah let's let's let's black and white he's offended by your I'm sorry did you watch anything in black and white yeah she flipped back and forward oh yeah she flipped back and forward all the way through true story okie dokie let's move on to we didn't say when it was on oh we didn't say when it was on when is it on It's on Prime.

1:31:16Prime Video. Yes. Which I thought it was on Disney because I just assumed it was like a, you know. Oh, no. So I went down that rabbit hole. Where is it? Where is it on my Disney debut system? It's not there because it's not on Disney. It's on Prime Video Wednesday the 27th of May. Okay. Spider-noir then. Next up, we have Dear England, which as we've already said, is based on James Graham's award-winning stage production and follows the reinvigoration of the England team in the run-up to the 2024 Euros. Did I get that right, Boidy? Yes. Yes, correct. 2024 Euros? Yeah. Is it? Yeah. There's four episodes and it ends up, the final episode is the 2024 Euros.

1:31:55Yeah, sorry. Which is not in the play. Right, okay. So there's more material covered in, there's that extra tournament, which wasn't in the original play, which is in this series, which is the 2024 Euros, which was his last. When we join this, he's not going, he's not, it's for the World Cup, he's starting, it's the final 12th. Yeah, Gareth Southgate had four tournaments. Yeah, I know, I know. So yeah, yeah. Okay, I was just trying to... Anyway... Sorry, carry on, carry on. Dear England, Steph. Yes. Was this enough to keep your eye on the ball? Okay, I really enjoy sports documentaries. I'm not a big sports person, but I love anything to do with sports people talking about their lives, okay?

1:32:36So for me, I was really apprehensive about this. I don't know that much about the play. Obviously, I know this story because it's actually something that happened in my life. but I was a bit like oh I'd much rather see a documentary where everyone involved in this story was actually talking about the things that happened and I don't really want actors to portray this I was like no this is not this is not going to be for me really? yeah no wait wait wait I was like you know I remember look Gareth Southgate we took him into our arms and we loved him I remember he even made him like celeb employee of the week because we were just so enamored with everything they did.

1:33:17Yeah, I mean, you can talk about all the trophies you want, but that's the one that counts. That's the one they're all after. But I was so drawn into this. Oh my God, I absolutely loved this. I felt all the emotions. I mean, I know, James, look, football is not for anyone, but a World Cup is different. It does feel different. World Cup, it does bring the nation together. Not you. and people that you know. But for many people, it brings people together who don't care. And I just love seeing everybody brought together and it makes me feel all the feels about, you know, and it's summer and it's just wonderful.

1:33:55I love the World Cup. And this gave me all the emotions. I think, I cannot believe how good Joseph Fiennes, your friend Joe, is in this role. It's a masterclass. He must have studied him so, Gareth, so much. because every little facial movement that he gets, every kind of little sort of tick, everything he does is pitch, pitch, excuse the pun, pitch perfect, right? And then they bring in Jodie Whittaker, who's obviously a real person, and she's amazing. The emotion, the way that it's shot, I just, everything about me would have said I hate it, would have just not enjoyed this and thought it was really silly.

1:34:34Like, why are they doing this? What's the point? You can actually get these real people. They've got actors playing the, you know, the real things but they've got a great you know I love an assemble scene you know where they assemble people any kind of scene where they're assembling the scene where they assemble the squad in the first episode I was like oh this is a great assembling scene you know they go they go to their individual clubs Is Avengers Assemble your favourite film? I absolutely love Avengers Assemble I absolutely love it anyway Can I ask a question if you are trying to get a football player to join the England squad do you as a rule just turn up in an underground car park and wait for them to come out of work or do you, I don't know, approach their people?

1:35:12As they said at the beginning, you know, there's a lot of this is, you know, dramatic license, okay? But you certainly, when they are going to get them, they will, you know, they appear at their... It's a bit Nick Fury, is all I'm saying. Okay. I have no bad things to say about this and I thought I'd have so many bad things to say. So, yeah, amazing how much he looks like Southgate at first, but yeah, what a masterclass in how he must have studied him. I was fully sucked in I thought the way the way they've portrayed this story is I think people are going to really love it and I'm as I said I wanted to hate not wanted to hate it I thought I was going to hate it I thought it was really clever how they intertwined the political landscape as well I thought that was a really interesting twist as I'm watching Ted Lasso at the same time I feel like I'm fully immersed in the whole football thing yeah I just I don't have I'm just trying to see if there's anything else that I thought about it that wasn't oh yeah so sorry i mean we've got to get out of time i tell you what one of the one of the things that i really hate and i always leave and i remember when luton were promoted to premier league and it was a terrible time but anyway right penalty shootouts are something that i think are really awful and the way that they do this penalty shoot the penalty shootouts which is like the second half of the first episode is just i felt sick and i knew what happened like we all know what happens i think that's why this is so penalties are a big part of the whole story yeah I think the thing about this is it's rare to watch something that you know exactly what happens and you know his story and still want to watch it I mean it'll be all new to you it is genuinely all new to me yeah I loved it absolutely loved it well I I'm completely opposite to you in the sense that I want to see the play anyway but I was really excited I'm really excited by the idea of actors playing really really famous young footballers like Bikai Osaka you know one of many Arsenal heroes right now who's portrayed in the TV show by Abdul Sesse to see an actor playing someone who you're completely is always up most of my thoughts on a weekly basis there's something exciting about it oh I think it's weird oh I think it's great I love it and they do not let us down this young cast you're right Joseph Fiennes is amazing as Gareth Southgate he's got he has a teeth he has the teeth and he does side mouth speaking he does which Gareth Southgate does so consistently and his portrayal of him is absolutely brilliant so the it's even better than your impression that you did earlier of Mr Burns steady, steady, that's going to go down in history I know, controversial, I know but he is an impressionist and then when it gets to the proper in-depth emotional bits he's fabulous as well and I just thought that so I've seen the play this is an object lesson on how to adapt a play into TV the play was very kind of starkly stylised and impressionistic and it kind of had to be because if you had to play to portray football on literally on a 50 foot stage so there were no footballs ever on stage.

1:38:02It was all mimicked or they were pretending that they were using footballs and playing with footballs, etc. And the depictions of the actual matches were done, had to be very stylised, obviously. And they kind of take that forward in a very interesting way to this TV version. I thought it was going to be completely opened out and kind of realistic in terms of its portrayal of the actual games. But it's actually done quite, again, in a quite stylised way with a kind of dark backdrop. and the kind of glowing green of the pitch. There's a scene at the end of episode two, which is not a spoiler, unless you're someone who knows me, where Bukaiosaki misses his penalty.

1:38:41Spoiler. One of the most tragic moments of recent football history. And I, I have to say, I absolutely was in tears. I was in bits. Because in real life, that was such a devastating moment for him. And they then received a lot of racist abuse, the three black players. Oh, I do remember that. You remember that? Yeah, that was a kind of global story, news story. and he deals with that but that was such a moving emotional moment that beautifully recreated in the way they have done in this TV version and just and I think the most important thing about the play and this TV version I think is that it's not just a fond love letter to the England players and the team it's what James Graham is trying to do is to make for people who aren't in the slightest bit interested in football really to kind of show what is so special about it and it feels very topical for me right now because I'm literally Arsenal is my life almost you haven't mentioned it no so in fact the last Arsenal game of the season I went to the guy I sit next to he literally said to me I'm talking about see you have a great summer and he said you know Arsenal is my life and I was like yeah same to an extraordinary I think you're fine Boidy this podcast is your life alright I've got more than one thing in my life but I think a lot of people it's really that important to them but what he's showing is that doesn't have to be a bad thing it doesn't have to be a macho celebration you know of kind of heterosexuality and you know it doesn't have to be hooliganism and it doesn't have to be nationalism it can be something really pure and great and good and that's what gareth southgate he's saying he's such a special manager because in the end he didn't win anything spoiler alert and we haven't won anything in in in in in the international tournament since 1966, James, it's still, that is still, that hurt, it's still ongoing.

1:40:26But what he did was he made us believe in the connection between us and the players. And he picked players who were, you know, a kind of like smart and clever and, you know, emotionally open. He got them to write diaries. They got them to write diaries about their lives and all this kind of stuff. He did something arguably more important. Yeah, and the character of Pippa Grange, played by Jodie Whittaker, was so important because she got them to look at their fears, what was holding them back. and that stuff is all relevant to anyone's life. It's really beautiful, James. I think you'll like...

1:40:54Here's the question I wanted to ask because I found that fascinating because that... Bear in mind, obviously, I know nothing about any of this. But the idea that the kind of like... While trying to avoid stoking a culture war, like the kind of detoxification of the perception of football players and football matches and football as a sport and the fact that he came in with this incredibly progressive kind of feelings first, you know, reconstructed model of what the team should be. I was watching this, I was thinking, surely there are a lot of football fans or people watching this on, shall we say, another side of the culture war who will find that quite off-putting.

1:41:32Yeah, probably. I think some idiots, you know, you can, will find it woke, you know. But actually, I think James Graham is very, James Graham is very, very clever in not, in making these things three-dimensional and complicated and not just as simplistic by saying, you know, the methods that he and Pippa Grange were using weren't particularly, I don't think, woke. They were just smart and clever. And treating the players like proper human beings. Because there's no, you know, it's a myth. The myth is that football players are stupid, you know, and ill-aliquent and all of that. And it's just not true that, you know, I've met many of them, lucky enough, over the years.

1:42:10I'm married to one. You're married to one, exactly. And so he's addressing that. But you're right. There will be, in the culture war scenario, but I think, scenario, scenario, I think the great thing about this drama is that I think it somehow manages to avoid going down any simplistic sides of the culture war. And what he was doing was something different. And the letter he wrote to fans and the country, the Dear England, which is the Dear England title, is a really beautifully nuanced address, if you like. And it's not just a simplistic, woke thing. So, yeah. And I think it's really interesting, the whole, like you're saying, bringing in, you know a sports psychologist and I asked Liam actually I said did you ever have any of those when you played and he said only one club and obviously he's you've never retired for years and years and years now but I thought that was really interesting because it is something that he brought more into the mainstream of clubs having those clubs and it's important because they are human beings and that's why I think you're going to like this because of the emotional element there's this guy a footballer called Dele Alli who played for Spurs actually whose story is really moving because he did have mental health issues yeah his whole life story Just to deal with that as a thing, to show that footballers, they're being paid famously, they're being paid hundreds of thousands of pounds a week, blah, blah, blah.

1:43:20But actually, however rich and successful you seem to be, you may still have mental health issues. And that is just, it's that kind of thing with a very light, with a lightness of touch. I totally agree. And an authenticity that is really key. Please tell me you like this because of that, because of all of that. So this is the interesting thing. Like, there's a penalty sequence in the first episode. Super tense. but because this begins with I was about to say the famous missed penalty that Gareth Southgate did in what I assume was some kind of important England match oh Jesus Christ yes but what I found really interesting about this is a bit where he stands up in front of them and he talks to them about what he felt and what he went through when he missed that penalty and you know the crushing weight the expectation the feeling of failure and the opprobrium that he would have got from the fans.

1:44:12And he kind of opens up to them and is very vulnerable to them as a way of trying to get them to similarly embrace the fact that playing for England is unimaginably stressful because there's so much hostility and expectation and stress and pressure and all this stuff. And I found it really moving. And you think, you have to understand about me, it's not that I don't find football interesting. I actively hate it as an entity. You actively hate it? I genuinely hate football because I hate how much people love it and I kind of feel a little bit that football brings out the worst in people. But that's not correct.

1:44:52That is not correct. Well, certainly my experience as a person who uses public transport is that that is very much what I experience. But when you see people rejoicing and the kind of religion of football in a way... Yeah, these are the things that annoy me. but what I'm saying is what I'm saying is this made me want to understand football and it also made me not hate football and I was so swept up in the human drama of it that it didn't matter that it was a sport that I actively dislike I was like I understand these people I see what they're going through I see their struggles their hopes their dreams their fears you know their insecurities and I was so invested in what he was trying to do and these players and you could see them developing kind of like a sense of unity and a sense of purpose and a sense of newfound confidence and self-realization.

1:45:44And I was just like, I thought it was kind of, it was like a triumph of the human spirit. I really, really liked it. James, I have literally never loved you more. Thank you. I just, awesome. No, but that's what it's doing. Right. And here's the thing, like you can tell that he spent many, many nights doing this on stage because, you know, A lot of people are brilliant on TV, but the detail of that performance is almost unlike anything I've ever seen. And I should say, I have no fucking clue what Gareth Southgate's tics, sidespeak. I can barely pick him out of a line-up, except doesn't he wear a waistcoat or something?

1:46:18He wears a federal waistcoat. Sure. So, none of that, but I could, even not knowing that it was accurate, I thought, I know Joseph Fiennes, and this was such a mannered, detailed, well-observed transformation, because I've never seen him play a role like this before, that you can see the hundreds of hours that have gone into doing this on stage. The voice alone. The voice alone. Which sounds nothing like Josephine. You absolutely think it is Gareth Southgate once after five minutes. Yeah. This is just Gareth Southgate playing himself. And it could have gone so wrong, couldn't it? It could have gone so wrong.

1:46:48You're right, all those nights performing that role on stage. But of course, you get the close-ups and that is the difference and he has to adjust his performance for that. The eye movement, where he doesn't maintain eye contact, he looks down an awful lot. It's really interesting, those little, almost bird-like mannerisms he gives them. Yeah, I thought this was really, really good. Like, really good. God, I love you so much. And I did not expect to like that. I was dreading watching this. I watched it last. I am so impressed with how open you have been to this. James Graham would be thrilled.

1:47:20I am, honestly. Because this is special. I really, really like it. One interesting thing that I noticed, though, which I wanted to say, is that in the original play, the character of Harry Kane, England captain and super goal scorer absolutely one of the most famous footballers in the world he is quite a comical figure in the play really because he's got quite a little bit of a lispy voice the real Harry Kane and the actor playing him kind of tries to capture a bit of that and he's a bit goofy kind of famously quite boring lots of kind of slightly negative things they've dropped all of that in this version he's a much more they don't really take the piss out of him he's a much more kind of serious impressive figure and I thought that was an interesting because I think Ian Wright complained about the portrayal of Harry Kane when he saw the play.

1:48:04And now I think they've adjusted it quite cleverly so these are more impressive, if you like. Less taking the piss out of him figure. Anyway, just an observation. Oh, God, that's very good. Good to know. Dear England, then. Yes. BBC One. Yes. It started yesterday Sunday, if you listen to this on Monday. Sundays and Mondays for two weeks, four episodes. Well, we, amazingly, have run out of time. What? However, there doesn't appear to be anyone queuing to get in the studio. Okay, let's very quickly move on to the final show this week, which is The Burrows on Netflix. And this one sees Alfred Molina as a recently bereaved man who moves into the eponymous retirement community, which he'd originally planned to move into with his wife.

1:48:42And there he meets fellow residents, played by, it has to be said, an incredible cast of people, including Bill Pullman, Gina Davis, Alfre Woodard, Clark Peters, although he very much does not want to be there. And that's before you even get into the fact that there appears to be some kind of life-sucking alien living there as well. Boydie, take us for a tour of the boroughs. This is like Stranger Things, the Cocoon version, with these old legendary actors all kind of living in an environment where they kind of have to interact with each other or they're trying to kind of... It's kind of like a very posh old people's home.

1:49:15This is Cocoon, the Cocoon TV series. But it starts with this thing where there's these little creepy monsters, which could be straight out of Stranger Things, which is why I suspect it. I wonder whether it's actually like a secretly a spin-off. if it's going to be like some kind of upside down, you know, a different upside down, which these old people are dealing with, monsters coming out from it, and in the end it will turn out to be something connected to the universe. And if anyone has to speculate that, I haven't Googled it, I haven't checked. But in my mind, I'm like, maybe it's all connected somehow.

1:49:42Because the monster that you see in the first scene, it's very Stranger Things-ish, right? Yeah, it's very Stranger Things-ish. So, but putting that to one side, this is an absolute for me, even more than Spider Noir, where I was saying it's a hangout, I like hanging out with those kids. These are really great people to hang out with. And Alfred Molina is such a brilliant actor, you know, such a kind of soulful presence. And his story and his, what's happened with his wife, he has flashbacks to what happened with his wife. And then when he reluctantly, he's a grumpy old guy who reluctantly is trying to adjust his life to this new setting.

1:50:17And you've got Bill Pullman, who's really all kind of trying to be really friendly and helpful as he is to all the neighbours. You've got Gina Davis, who's kind of retired, music manager and she's like a kind of upbeat figure they're all kind of much more upbeat and having a good time than he is and it's and it's a kind of forgetting again the whole fantasy monster movie element of it just as just as a group of pete actors brilliant actors that you listed them all pretty much playing funny well-written interesting characters in this kind of quite quite engaging setting i really enjoyed it i again a bit like spider no i don't really care about the story.

1:50:53But it's just I think it's quite well written really well acted gathering of great cast members and I enjoyed that. I didn't realise this was produced by the Duffer Brothers. Yeah, that's what I was saying. It wasn't until afterwards I saw them in the credits I was like, oh right. Yeah, Duffer Brothers. Yeah, as soon as I saw that It's like an old people version. Old Stranger Things. It is Stranger Things Retirement Village that's exactly what it is. Yeah, again the story is kind of a nothing isn't it really. but I love seeing Bill Pullman I love Alfred Molina love Gene Davies yeah you're absolutely right it's just a it's great hangout it's not it's not going to set the world alight unless it is exactly what he says it is which I'm now starting to think it is maybe but yeah and the the final scene which won't give away what happens but yeah is like whoa oh my god yeah it's a good old shit but yeah we've run out of time but yeah it's it's it's lovely to be in the company of these great actors.

1:51:54There we go. Geriatric Stranger Things. Yes. The Burroughs on the Netflix. When, Boydie? Oh, God. Now? Now. I'm going to say now. Classic Russell. Now. I think it's now, yeah. It's now. You can watch it now. It's on the Netflix. Brilliant. Fantastic. What else is out this week? Make That Movie, Channel 4 Thursday. It's a sitcom written and starring Sam Campbell, who's the Australian comedian who people like. Okay. There's... Good Girl's Guide to Murder, Season 2, BBC. That's on Wednesday. Rick and Morty season 9. Yes, Star City, the spin-off of For All Mankind on Friday. We're going to do that on Pilot Plus.

1:52:27We're going to do that on Pilot Plus. Exactly. I think that's about it. I think that's it. What is our pick of the week? Dear England. Dear England. Dear England, yes, we are unanimous. Oh, Four Seasons. Did you watch that season too? I did not mention Four Seasons. Thursday, yeah. No! Thursday Netflix. Yes. Why haven't we done that? I didn't watch the first three seasons. Ahhhh. Very good. Anyway, that is it for this week's show. Thank you very much for listening. Please subscribe to Pilot Plus if you don't already, because, you know, that's where we're going to be talking about Star City. You can follow us on social media at Boyd Hilton, at Steph Sealand, at James C.

1:52:56Dyer, at Pilot TV Pod. And we'll be back in your ears next week when we will have the Notorious RTD on to talk tiptoe and we'll be reviewing some other things as well. Right, I'm going to go off to learn some more about the beautiful game. Pilot out.