The Cage, Secret Service, and Amandaland. With guest Jack Thorne

28:21I've been inching closer to the end of my, you know... I think this is like the gold standard of post-apocalyptic stuff for me alongside, you know, obviously The Lost of Us. Why is Silo most famous of all, though? What? Do you know why it's most famous? Bassale! No, no, close. No. It was the time when James met Tim Cook, the head of Apple, on set. Of course, yes. I was in the silo. I had lunch. Otto Lenge, it was very nice. In the cafeteria. Whether or not we did have an interview with Jack Thorne or not on this podcast. We did have Tim Cook. We had Tim Cook on the podcast. Literally, the man in charge of the richest company in the world.

28:57And then months, some would say months later, he resigned and left. I know. Are the two related? Causational correlation, it's hard to say. What did James say to him? off the record when he wasn't recording it the lead Tim Cook to leave this job yeah true story I'll never tell it's an open mystery no I don't think you will well yeah okay well I might be Steph Silo champion Steph Silo you can add that to the pit and everything else you've got to watch your bank holiday is going to be really busy it's going to be very busy really busy sadly I've still got to finish the is it your book the amendments oh my god can you watch Paradise before like one of us dies yeah it'll have to be from Tuesday almost I do Back by Monday, Monday.

29:36It's okay. Yeah, that's fine. Yeah, me and Steph will do one without you. Yeah, you won't be invited. I mean, you were doing anyway. We were doing anyway. I mean, let's not pretend. Anyway, anyway, it is time. And I'm not even sure we have time because we've already droned on quite a long time. But we will do a listener question. And the listener question is this. It's more of a listener discussion more than a question. Oh. So, this one comes from Rob. And Rob says, While watching the latest season of Monarch Legacy of Monsters, which is better than season one, but still not exactly must-see TV, a seed was planted in the back of my mind, a seed that sprouted later that evening when I was continuing my rewatch of Babylon 5.

30:09Back in the 90s and noughties, when serialised TV storytelling really started to become popular, there was a healthy balance of serialisation and danger of the week procedural elements. Each episode would have its self-contained story, while the bigger plot was woven into the broader tapestry of the show. That seems to be a skill that's been lost in modern TV, and the result is often narrative inertia for episodes, occasionally seasons at a time. Whole runs of episodes where nothing much happens with characters and storylines placed in holding pattern while episode counts are filled up. James quite often mentions the 13-episode Netflix Marvel shows as dragging.

30:43And shows like the aforementioned Monarch, The Handmaid's Tale, and Star Trek Picard all suffered from this prestige bloat. Good phrase. Here we go. While there are notable exceptions for All Mankind, The Morning Show, they tend to be shows with a large ensemble cast of characters and multiple storylines, so there's usually forward momentum in each episode. So my question is, should these TV shows go back to having plot of the week elements alongside the wider narrative as a way of making each individual episode a satisfying experience? God, that's such a multi-layered question. But you've got things like Game of Thrones.

31:19Yes. That had an overarching narrative and then there was every episode something was... But then that almost picks up the point here because there are so many characters and so many plot lines. there's always something happening in every episode. But it's interesting because I always think UK TV always had a serialized thread going through it. Going back since it feels like the dawn of time, we've always had a thing for serialized TV. I remember growing up, whether it be Doctor Who was serialized, they still had an element of the week's stuff, but they all had mini arcs. Whereas I think in America, because of the network TV model, certainly if you go back before the, I don't know, before the 80s, I would say, there was an element of what I would kind of call episodic reset, whereby every episode of television, stuff would happen and then it'd be like, right, everyone back to starting positions for the next episode with like no hugs, no learning, right?

32:06Like nothing. Like there was no progression of storyline and I think that was largely due to the fact that everything was syndicated, everything was rerun and you need stuff to be self-contained. Yeah, you need to watch. Yeah, I felt like serialised TV is higher risk than episodic TV, fundamentally, because people can jump in and jump out. Yeah, to go back to my The World's Greatest TV show, Murder, She Wrote, you can watch an individual Murder, She Wrote at any time and not have to, do you know what I mean? Yeah, well that was the nature of like episodic procedurals. But I would say what actually happens is that a show it becomes very successful and highly regarded and is a hit critically and in terms of ratings and then from a certain point in the creation of that show when it becomes a long running thing and it could be whether it's syndicated or not but syndicated doesn't affect it at all where the creators then building story arcs and character arcs and ongoing serialized storylines because it's the natural progression of a show.

33:06So I'm thinking of, I'm trying to think of a different one to the one I always bring up, but I'm going to bring up anyway. I don't give a shit anymore. Seinfeld, right? Seinfeld is a classic sitcom. And there's the one... No hugs, no learning. What you're referring to is that was coined for Seinfeld. But of course, Seinfeld had some amazing, did start to have long story arcs around seasons four, five, maybe average, nine series run. And Jane had a great story, yeah. All of them did. But you are talking that era, because this is all post-70s stuff, isn't it? We're into the 80s and 90s. But I think 80s and 90s, I mean, certainly looking back at these shows, it feels like that sort of reset, sort of episodic stuff stopped, and you started to get hints of serialised storytelling into episodic television.

33:47But I remember even MASH, which was like the biggest show on TV, right, in the 70s, and that had serialised elements to it. And that had the model. It was a 30-minute sitcom in which, as you said, it reset. Every week there was a different storyline, but it also had, running alongside it, you had these arcs. Well, there's kind of a love story somewhere in there as well. Like, there's a love interesting. That obviously does. Stuff like that. Yeah, yeah. That helps. But I think of House. Yeah. I mean, when House became, House started out as a fairly, I don't use the word, I was going to say bog standard.

34:18It was brilliant from the start, but a fairly standard format of a case of the week. You know, literally, what is the diagnosis case? And then it didn't take long. Once it became a matter of time, House was the biggest show on TV in the world at one point. It really embraced the serialization element to it. And it was his journey. Cuddy and him and on-off kind of thing. So I think for me the correlation is when something becomes so successful that then the creators have the confidence and they know that consumers of the show will like it if you build in serialized elements. Because the characters become so beloved that they want, you need a bit more.

34:55But also, how much of that is the show's progression? How much is that during the run of House, TV fundamentally changed? And the shift from procedural episodic television more towards serialized television? Because as the streamers became more prevalent, because we're in the noughties at this point, right? So as you move on, I think that thrust towards serialized television became much more pronounced. But even if you go back to the 80s and 90s, I do wonder how much, for example, the proliferation of VCRs changed this. because if you go back prior to the 1980s... You're throwing all kinds of shit in.

35:26Well, no, I'm serious. If you go back prior to the 1980s, if you miss an episode of television, you were basically just fucked, right? If it was serialized storytelling and you missed it, you'd be like, what the hell happened? I have no idea. Whereas when you had VCRs, you could go out of an evening, I am told, I never did, but you could go out of an evening and you could set the video to record it. So you didn't need to miss an episode. So you still had that thing where you could keep up with what happened. I don't know if that was directly responsible. I imagine it kind of factored into these things.

35:51But then as you get into the streaming era, the peak TV era, I think that thrust for very cinematic, sort of slower, more paced, almost film-like storytelling started to become the ascendant. I think we've said this a few times on here. I think we often refer to some of the things that are on Apple, just like long films, because that's what they feel like. Very, very long films. But they do feel like that. It's that same style of storytelling, where it's slower, it's more specific. and actually instead of it being kind of a three-act structure, what you've got is like, I don't know, let's say it's an eight-part show, it is one continuous narrative, but it uses the episodes to form a kind of dramatic framework of it.

36:31So you have the ups and downs, the narrative ups and downs. But interestingly, I think, you know, we've almost moved now to a stage, especially with Netflix, where it's not just serialised, it's almost like binge-worthy, where, I mean, Man on Fire is a great example. I was about to say Man on Fire. But Netflix's whole thing is these shows are designed not to be seen week by week in a serialised way, but to be watched all in one go. So it really is an eight-hour film because that's how it's written and constructed. Man and Fire is the perfect example. And I think that, and it feels like it's designed to be that propulsive, so you do want to keep watching, keep watching, keep watching it, like a very long film if you've got that amount of time.

37:05But yeah, that's a really interesting point. I'm trying to think of something now that we watch that does have both those elements to it, and I can't really think. But you still, I think nowadays, you don't really get episodic procedurals that don't have some kind of serialized aspect to them. Yeah, like The Rookie. The Rookie is a really good example. Even if you go back to the 90s, you look at stuff like The X-Files. That had a mythology that spread throughout it. Yes, it was Creature of the Week, but also you'd get the conspiracy episodes. And even when you weren't on a conspiracy episode, there was a sense of progress.

37:35There was a sense that you were going from somewhere. And Star Trek, Next Generation, feels much more standalone in the same way as the original series. But Voyager, by the nature of their journey through the Delta Quadrant, felt like progress. And Deep Space Nine was very serialized. I was about to say, Deep Space Nine, and I think that's one of the reasons that I really love Deep Space Nine. Yeah. Interesting. But even, I suppose, with comedies, actually, I'm thinking about Brooklyn Nine-Nine, like, that has an overarching narrative, all the characters, you know, you have that, but still, in every episode, there is, you know...

38:02Well, Friends does as well. That has a very clear thrill, as the relationships change, and, you know, who's dating who, like, there is a progression. I don't think it, you know, they're not standalone episodes, entirely. It's all down to the VCRs. Yeah, so I think it shifts quite a lot, but I feel like we've come a long way from that, you know, A plot, B plot, C plot structure in shows. But again, to me, that feels like network television where you needed A, B and C plots because you needed to do a certain amount of padding because you were doing 22 episodes a season. So you had an awful lot of filler in there, filler episodes and then filler content in each episode because you had to pad them out for runtime.

38:36Whereas nowadays, and I think what this person is referring to, when they say, you know, stuff feels inert, it doesn't feel like stuff's moving on. I would argue in that case, it's less to do with the fact that we need more creature of the week and more to do with the fact that if you don't need 12 episodes, don't have 12 episodes. If you don't need eight, don't have eight. Because we talk about this a lot where someone's adapted a film and it's like, oh yeah, they're going to stretch it out over 10 hours. You're like, fucking hell, there isn't story for that. I think we're confusing two things here, if I may say.

39:01By all means. Because what you're talking about, we're talking about limited series here. Yeah. Right? The whole Man on Fire, I mean, if it's a bit here, I'm sure. I don't think that's limited series. Okay. But it's a story, right? Told across the season. I mean, it could be a limited series. It could be. It could be. It depends on its success, won't it, really? This is kind of my point. It's a limited series. I mean, The Night Manager was never meant to be a limited series. It was never meant to be an ongoing serial. But it was a limited series. But it was so successful. Anything that successful has to become a serial.

39:30So it's like... But what I think the original question was touching on was all the complaints I ever have about overlong series are almost always pertaining to limited series. And that, for me, is the phenomenon. The phenomenon that's happening right now in the streaming world we live in is too long a run for a limited series. That's my issue. And it's like, you know, it's not the pit. It's 15 episodes per season, and it works brilliantly because each hour, as we all know, is playing out an hour of the shift, and it's fantastic. That is the right length for that show. but you know a 10 hour what was the one we did recently Miniature Wife Miniature Wife 10 episodes of that is insanity yeah agreed and that's I think what the question is alluding to it's bloat isn't it they're referring to bloat yeah bloat but I think the bloat I don't think it's I think it's all about limited series being too long when there's 4 or 5 episodes of it you're like oh that makes sense and often it ends up being the perfect length when it gets as soon as you're getting 8, 9, 10 I start to question it sometimes it's fine sometimes it's fine for me I think the serial versus you know story of the week type thing isn't so much the issue it's more it's particularly it's because story of the week shows it's built in intrinsically to the whole format that they can go to the 22 23 episodes to see this thing but it's a limited series where it really hits hard when it's over long that's my because it has a very definite start point and end point and you can judge very clearly whether they're taking too much time to get to the end point well that's what we said about the burbs do you remember we did the burbs a few weeks back and we were like, how are they going?

41:07Because the episodes were like 45 minutes and we were like, how are they going to do this? I think it was eight or ten episodes and we're like, what? Because obviously it's based on the film. The Burbs has already been recommissioned. Yes, I know. It doesn't mean it's not, it is still within its own format effectively a limited series that's just been commissioned for a second. Having more than one season of a limited series does not negate the fact the original series was limited. I don't think it's always limited though. I do think, because we talk about deliberate pacing and ponderousness and it's not always limited series.

41:35sometimes there's just a lack of sort of urgency to the storytelling. Of course, that can happen. But I think the phenomenon, the epiphenomenon, I'm using a phrase that Will Self used when I was on TV with him once. That's a niche joke. Yeah. The phenomenon is particularly pertaining to limited series, is my theory. Okay. We can't stay. We can't stay. We can't stay. We've got to leave. We're done. We can't say limited anymore this podcast. No, we must limit this particular question. Sorry, Rob. We've run out of road. Really, this conversation should have been eight episodes. We've only allocated six to it.

42:12So we cannot complete talking about this. If you would like your question honestly beaten to death like that on this podcast, please do send them in. I think we had a substantial discussion. Yeah, yeah. There was meat to that. There was meat. A lot of meat. The address is postbag at pilottvpod.com. Someone actually last week said that that wasn't working for them. If any reason that doesn't work, though, you can still do pilot tv at empire magazine.com but postbag at pilot tv pod.com should emphasis on should work should we have our guest please god yes you may have heard him on this podcast before you might have heard him on this podcast before during his many previous interviews that boyd's done with him apparently on the sly uh but if you haven't this is jack thorne who is responsible for checks notes half the shows on television he is an extraordinarily prolific writer and he brought us the likes of Adolescence, The Hack, Toxic Town, His Dark Materials, Help, The Virtues and of course most recently Lord of the Flies on BBC One and Jack very kindly Zoomed me from his study the other day so that we could chat about everything from his writing process to the state of the world at the moment which I enjoyed enormously.

43:20So here is me talking with Jack Thorne. Well Jack thanks very much for agreeing to do this it's much appreciated. Thank you so much for having me on I'm thrilled to be on pilot it's very cool. it's lovely to have you here if for no other reason that we have a running sort of joke on the on the podcast that if a great tv show comes along you could put money on it being written by either you or stephen knight and probably make money off that bet because you are prolific in a way that i am in absolute awe of and i don't know how you do it so i'm going to ask you now how do you manage to output so much stuff i really don't i mean if you did the hours i write because i do little shows you see and steve knight does big shows that last forever and so i just do some little shows but i do them quite regularly and so people think that i'm doing a lot whereas actually i'm just doing little little tiny bits you know four four hours is very different from eight and it's certainly different from ten yeah that okay that's fair that is absolutely fair but you've said before i think like isn't it that you work on like you do work on multiple projects at once don't you like you'll have multiple plates spinning i do i do two at once and the reason why is because um if if i do one then i stop sleeping so i do the second one to basically reassure me that i'm okay as a writer so when i get stuck rather than just sort of sitting there in agony i kind of go okay this isn't going to move i'm going to go back to the other one and sometimes it can be quite weird i did i did a show about historic sex crimes called national treasure at the same time as i was writing harry potter and the cursed child so you know like you got you got that's a very weird combination it it happened to star um hagrid and molly weasley but but they weren't necessarily in the same universe that's amazing that's quite the mental pivot isn't it does it help if they're radically different things so you can almost access different parts of your brain sometimes and sometimes it's quite good when they overlap with with um lord of the flies you know i was doing adolescence at the same time that there was something very interesting about the way that the two fed each other i think it's really interesting you say that about sort of like almost like it's almost like a self-esteem thing like you're reassuring yourself that you can do this because someone as accomplished of you who have i assume you have a shelf somewhere possibly in your bathroom with your collection of was it five baftas you have at this point you know surely there's validation you should have lined them up in front of you i saw jonathan ross uh um He presented the RTS Awards one year and he said, you think you want to win one of these?

45:54And then you're sat in your study and they're winking down at you. And all you can see is self-hatred. So, yes, it's very, very nice. I like it. And I do. They're in my telly room because my telly room is the room that no one goes in other than me, my wife, my child. And they do mean a lot to me because I need the validation. um uh but but yes uh it doesn't make the next blank page any easier as any writer will tell you i i asked the writer an older writer once when i was starting out i said when do you feel like you belong and he turned to me and he went you never feel like you belong and uh and those words have really stuck with me and and they are true i i'm with you i must admit there's a quote by dorothy parker obviously there's a quote by dorothy parker on basically everything but the famous one of course i hate writing i love having written and that has always rung incredibly true to me because i find writing an incredibly excruciating miserable process but i like the end result and i wonder if you felt similarly or whether you actually quite enjoy the act of doing it so i'll take your dorothy parker and i'll raise it to josh widdekin and what josh widdekin said once uh on a podcast that i was listening to was i wish i could make something and finish it and be really proud of it and then no one see it so there's something that i think dorothy parker felt very proud of the things that she produced and there is something about you know exposing it to the public glare which means that that pride inevitably diminishes slightly because you don't remember the good reviews you only remember the bad reviews so yes there is part of me i actually really like the process of writing and don't really like the process of having it on tv so uh if i could just keep writing but then people would say well then shut up and just write something in your shed and stop bothering us so you know like you know there is also part of me that wants the exposure so i don't you know it's a we we are a hypocrisy and a conundrum right as human beings but it's interesting that you're able to internally validate because i i know a lot of writers and i've become myself among them like when i've written something it gets one where i cannot tell if it's good or not and i need someone to tell me it's good or in my head it's terrible but are you able to literally look at it and be like yes this is good i know it's good no what when did i give that impression i know that's not that's not how it works for me at all you know and and people can tell me it's good and then i can still believe it's terrible uh you know the the no i'm uh no i'm not uh i don't you know but but i do like that my father-in-law came to stay once and I was working in Highbury, Stington Central Library at the time.

48:42And so every night I'd get in about seven o 'clock and he'd say, good day, Jack. And after the third one, I had to tell him, I have one good day in 14. But I do have one good day in 14. And that's what I live for. And I don't know whether it's about a date. you know i don't know whether i feel validated by the writing at that point i just know that i've disappeared and gone somewhere else and it doesn't necessarily mean that the work is better that day than any other day it just that i feel like something of me has been dolloped onto the page and and and those are the moments that i live for more than having it on tv more than awards winking down at me it's that it's that moment of just going oh i disappeared today yeah like it it feels like you've tapped into a frequency and something has just fallen into place and it just works or doesn't work it doesn't you know that like i say you can read it the next day and go oh no i was completely wrong but but that that feeling that feeling is is enough for me yeah it's interesting also because i know that you've said before that you're obsessed with ratings and looking at those things and seeing the reviews because they always tell you like never read the reviews like never like that that madness lies but do you still find yourself doing that do you wish you wouldn't do it like how do you balance that yeah i mean uh yes i do find myself doing it and um and it is you know it is so fascinating what hits and what doesn't i'm really happy at the moment because the other bennett girl just has proved a huge hit and it's beautifully written and and that's that's lovely and then a show like waiting for the out doesn't get the ratings and you're like but that was wonderful wasn't it yeah you guys are missing so much by not having watched that so it it's not like i i look at them and go oh that's success that's not i i look at them and just go what are people consuming what where is where is the line of consumption right now and and you know what you can never draw too many lessons from it because what works at one moment doesn't work at another you know that that you just thought that people board of costume drama and then suddenly Rivals comes along and blows everything else out of the water.

50:58So, you know, there are no rules, but at the same time, I'm really interested to look for rules. Yeah. I think it was Steve Jobs who said don't ask people what they want, tell them what they want, because people don't know what they want until they're presented by it. So I sometimes think the trends in what is and isn't working is no indicator of anything. Yeah, Steve Jobs wasn't working for commissioners, though, was he? He wasn't beholden to someone in a glass case am i going this works and this doesn't i mean yes that is absolutely true i mean you your output i would say is it's also very diverse in the kind of things you do like there's a big difference between the virtues his dark materials the fades you know this is england like there's like do is it depending on your mood what you fancy doing because it feels to me that these things from a from a viewer's point of view they fulfill very different functions like you've got social realism you've got pure escapism you know and like does it depend on where your head is at at any given time?

51:51Like, what do you prefer writing? No, I'm just chaos. And all those projects you listed were offered to me. I didn't originate any of them. And so it's just that thing of just going, you know, being presented with a bag of sweets and going, yes, please, and then eating the sweets. So there is no process. There's no sort of feeling behind it. The one thing I would say is that I think social realism and fantasy belong in the same bracket, because I think that they are talking about ideas of society. And I think that there's something very interesting about both, because they're always looking at a problem.

52:32And so those are the things that I'm drawn to, problems and trying to think about how to pose a question about those problems. Because you've talked about TV before as being like an empathy box, like a way of almost tuning the public consciousness into an issue or a demographic or something that they might not otherwise care about so it's like a powerful tool and i kind of get the impression that you don't take that lightly that you're like you're very aware that it can can be wielded with great power yeah i don't take it lightly but at the same time i don't i don't feel you know most days i don't feel i've got anything to add to that empathy box so you know it's not like i sit there and go oh what what wise thoughts should i impart today it's more just kind of like i'm really worried about something someone's giving me the opportunity to write about it i'm gonna i'm gonna think about it and wrestle with it and then try and put something down and then hope that that it might add to the debate in some small way you know i think there's something there's something stupidly grand about writing then you know and And it's so interesting because writers as a breed are generally quite timid human beings.

53:44And then we sit in our rooms and we go, oh, this is what they're like. You know what I mean? Or this will make people laugh or this will make people think. And the truth is I'm slightly ashamed of that aspect of my personality. And yet I'm still doing this job. And I love this job. Lord of the Life for you is a, you know, it's a passion project. As you see, some of those were commissions. This is very much not a commission. this is something you've been wanting to do for decades right yeah you've kept it back to does is that does that make it a very different beast no pun intended uh you know when you approach it if it is something that you've essentially brought to life i don't know you know it's a it's a it's a weird thing because my relationship with that book has changed so hugely through the years when when i read it as a kid the thing that drew me in was reading it and going i'm simon and i was reading it at two in the morning with insomnia because i had insomnia that is quite bad insomnia at that age and i was like 11 years old and i was just sort of going golding understands me because i felt like simon and then golding killed me and i remember the moment when i just kind of because simon's death is so confusingly written you're not actually sure he is dead and then he talks about his body drifting out to sea and I literally remember the visceral feeling of that moment the sort of heart being pulled out of me and then I read it in my 20s and I felt a bit more like Ralph and a little less like Simon and then I read it in my 30s and felt a little bit like Jack And so, yes, my love for the book hopefully does translate into the telling that we did of the book.

55:34But at the same time, that passion, I'm not sure whether, I don't know whether it helps or not. I just am so proud to have been part of it and so proud to tell it in what I think is the most suitable medium for Lord of the Flies. There's something about the chapter structure of TV, the vocabulary of TV, which I think lends itself to the book. And I've read a lot of different people expressing a lot of different opinions about what we made. And so now I'm in a slightly confused state about it, but I am hugely proud of the show. yeah i mean it's it's it's a really interesting refocus for me on this because i read this but i did it for gcsa so it was a long time ago and i remember it in the same way that i think society remembers it like it feels like it's um an artifact of cynicism like it's like it's like it's a testament to the inherent problematic part of human nature but the tv show doesn't necessarily feel that way there's there feels like there's a hint of almost optimism a hint of empathy to it because we feel like because jack isn't a caricature here we feel like we understand what makes him do what he does like he's not just a villainous character and i wondered like did you see lord of the flies the book when you read it as something that's inherently quite bleak and quite pessimistic and look into the the nasty parts of human nature or did you always see that that kind of optimism in it i think as a kid i hated jack and i but i hated jack because i i was reading it from the perspective of the playground and i was reading it from the perspective of kids that weren't so kind to me who i wanted to dismiss i wanted to dismiss them and i wanted to say that they were you know caricatures they were they were just um kids that that decided how they could do me damage each day you know that that's that's that was all they felt and then and then i don't think it was till I read it in my 30s that I really started to understand the tenderness with which Golding was writing Jack and I don't think Golding sees Roger as redeemable I think Golding I heard a story about a schoolmaster telling Golding that that he cast his son as Roger and Golden Ground, why on earth would you do that?

58:01But I do think he does see Jack as redeemable. I do think he does see parts of Jack. And it's such a beautiful book because it's not about one decision. It's about a series of little decisions where if Jack and Ralph just change their direction a matter of tiny degrees, their story could be so different. And so, yes, I wanted to capture what I saw as the truth of what Golding was writing about. And it was about... It's Tiny Little Things Going Wrong, and it was about a group of boys in the shadow of World War II. When you read it as a kid, did you have someone that you thought you were? I think at the time, Ralph was my avatar.

58:52I mean, I think it's I wanted to think I was Ralph, as you often do with these things. He's the one I kind of aspired to be. I mean, was I a bit more piggy? I don't know. I'm going to leave that for other people to decide. because piggy piggy for me was an interesting character because well ralph is the kind of you know the protagonist for want of a better word piggy feels to me like he is he's the moral center like and i remember that i watched the you know the i don't remember which film was it the 60s version of it where the giant rock just this slab rock just flattens him yeah that's 90 that's 1990 version it was the 90 version yeah because i've seen it i think i saw all of them before on my gcs but i was like there's something so tragic about the kind of the complete evisceration of the sort of like personification and morality in the story and i found that was so bleak i really struggled with that i found the book really depressing i remember that but isn't it interesting that you felt like ralph right and and as a kid you felt safe if you were ralph and yet the first thing almost the first thing ralph does in the story is reveal piggy snake isn't that fascinating that golden does that right you know that so gold isn't doing this none of these characters are easy none of these characters are easy they're all deeply deeply layered fundamentally they are kind of what they are which is kind of adolescent and pre-adolescent boys and as the man here you are basically every parent's nightmare at the moment like you give all parents absolute sleepless nights this is your legacy at this point and this is another one of those like it certainly makes i think parents of children and parents of boys in particular very concerned and obviously there are a lot of connections here between Lord of Flies and adolescents but the age gap is different isn't it because Jamie's that little bit older and you feel like he's on a certain path the kids here are younger here more malleable more impressionable and they're kind of in a state of flux but I thought what's interesting is the way adolescence deals with because Jamie's you know his his influences are his peer group and the internet right and they seem that they've had this big effect on him but obviously that's not the case here certainly wasn't the case during World War or two, 90s, 50s schooling, you know, that was not quite the same as the digital age we live in now.

1:00:55But this speaks to, I guess, what's inherent in adolescent boys. So it is, on the one hand, it's the nurture thing. On the one hand, it's the nature thing. And I'm not sure which one's more depressing. Or is it what's inherent? Or is it that they were also subject to pressures and stories and versions of manhood that were being thrust at them because they were growing up at a time when, in this extreme state the world found itself in people were shouting hate at each other so you know like you know can you divorce any of us from the the the culture in which we are we are socialized and i and i don't think you can and i and i and i think golding was writing about a really specific period in the same way that adolescence we were writing about a really specific period it's it's interesting that when this kind of really happened was it the tongan castaways yeah and they had the best time they all got on the fire never went out nobody got eaten or murdered and it was like oh actually maybe we are better than golding thought we were yes but maybe those boys weren't the boys that golding was writing about yeah very much i don't know how tongan boys are socialized i don't know the world which they grew up in i don't know much about their specific but but but what golding was writing about was post-war britain at a time when we had puffed up our chests but also damaged ourselves um and and and it's that it's that combination of of sort of pride and damage that i think these boys take to the island yeah and you get obviously that bit at the end when the kind of the the takeaway from the officer is that's not very british of you it's like you're british boy you should be better than this like kind of colonialist spirit that he brings to it yeah like by the mighty tom goodman hill absolutely um i read somewhere that you've got a tattoo of be good from et which is amazing i love that like do you embrace that kind of ambleness because there's such a there's such a wholesomeness and an optimism to that whole ambling oeuvre yes but et is not just the greatest coming of age story or the greatest film about aliens, it is also the greatest film about divorce ever, mate.

1:03:12So there is an optimism to it, but there is also, you know, and that's what that era did so well. The Goonies, that is a really interesting portrait of a community that is absolutely sunk, economically sunk, and these kids are trying to work out what they're going to do with their lives because everything that they've known about their life so far is going to be taken away from them because it's being destroyed so you know that there's there's uh in spielberg and that and that era is so clever because it didn't just make things simple and it quite resonant i would have thought with uh young people today given everything that's happened all of our goon dots are being dismantled yeah yeah i watched watching the goonies with elliot the other day was was wonderful uh he loved it but he prefers he prefers back to the future which is which is just an optimistic optimistic view of society because it's just kind of like you know yeah he's just great marty's just great genuinely i'm talking about optimism like because you had to disappear into the kind of the manosphere type world when you were researching adolescents like is it difficult to kind of keep that optimism when you're faced with that because i find even from my social media feeds you know i'm being served clips from louis throughs inside the manosphere you know there's so much of this the recent uh uh revelations about the whole rape academy stuff online with the giselle pellico stuff like sometimes it's quite hard to kind of keep your head above water no totally i mean algorithms are really weird i i i sort of got sucked into a really weird algorithm the other day where i was constantly being served videos of meryl streep and martin short and their relationship and just a little bit about their relationship which which actually was quite uplifting but i've no idea what what uh what what x had taken from how i was browsing uh to to say well what this guy needs is martin short meryl street but it did keep me on there it was bloody clever i was kind of going oh i want to know what happens next so uh but yes no it is and um uh and at the moment the books that um elliot night really every night because my my day stops when um his day is sort of towards the end of his day and and you know i'm always the one that puts him to bed and i'm always the one that reads to him and we're reading alex ryder at the moment which uh we're on book three and there was uh a moment where alex was being chased by a great white shark um managed to um evade it slightly the shark went into a cave and then the shark was cut in two by blades coming from up and down within the it was just like wow you know like you know having spent the day wrestling uh you know the social realist demons and then just coming back to you know having a shark cut into and just going i hope my my son can sleep tonight because i'm not sure i will i think this image is so powerful that it might just kind of stick with me well i'm looking forward to the next jack thorne project which involves sharks being cut into and spies and adventures.

1:06:16This is a great streaming pitch. You should definitely seize on that. Awesome, awesome. Well, Jack, thanks so much. It's been great to speak to you. Thank you very much. And thank you again for having me on. I'm really, really tough. That was Jack Thorne. Let's move on to this week's news. Assuming, of course, there's any left because Steph has already spoiled many of the stories that we were discussing. Yes, many, many stories. Ted Lasso had a trailer. Steph's told us. Yeah. We got the air date for that. Steph's told us. Yeah. yeah August the 5th the other one she's insisting on having is go on let's discuss the White Lotus this is a very interesting story actually I think I don't want to build up too much I think this is the most interesting TV news story of the month wow okay so we know Helena Bonham Carter it's been everywhere Helena Bonham Carter season 4 White Lotus she's left she's not having it she's left Boyd might have some insight into this but it's been widely reported we don't know if she's not having it so I'm already interjecting.

1:07:14Apologies. You are. It's been widely reported that Laura Dern and this, I think, is what's being misreported if I am to believe Boyd. Everyone thinks that Laura Dern is Helena Bonham Carter's replacement, right? Some people are assuming. Some people are assuming but Boyd tells me that this is not the case. HBO has officially confirmed that Laura Dern is joining the show but they've also officially confirmed she's not playing the same character that Helena Bonham Carter was going to play. So Helena Bonham Carter, not only has she left, she's not in it at all. So she was cast as a character in The White Lotus and she's now not going to be in it at all.

1:07:53They put out a statement. This is what's unusual about this whole situation. Let's go. So Helena Bonham Carter was exiting the cast of The White Lotus Season 4 and that actually apparently this statement with filming just underway on Season 4 of The White Lotus, it had become apparent that the character which Mike White created for Helena Bonham Carter did not align once on set. HBO said in a statement, open quotes again, the role has subsequently been rethought, is being rewritten, and will be recast in the coming weeks. HBO, the producers, and Mike White are saddened that they won't get to work with her, but remain ardent fans and very much hope to work with the legendary actress on another project soon.

1:08:33But they are going to recast her role then. So that's where the confusion is. Because everyone thinks that, because they've now announced Laura Dern is joining, okay, which she wasn't on the original cast list so why wouldn't everyone assume that she's been recast in that role? Absolutely, yeah. It's ambiguous. It is ambiguous. It really is. She is definitely... I don't believe them. Oh, okay. But there's a couple of things to say about this. One is that I saw someone on... Everyone's assuming she was pissed off or something or walked out. But I don't think that's the case necessarily. But my point is this has happened before.

1:09:08This is not the first time this has happened with Mike White with Mike White in the show okay people I'm pretty sure that the last series the Jason Isaac series they that Mike White in an interview before during or after it alluded to the fact that he recast someone in that series and I think he does it fairly regularly I think this is a thing that he's been known to do so I've seen all these videos online going this is outrageous this is like you know how can this happen but it's a thing that he does do every now and then his conception he writes a role he may or may not have a particular actor or actress in mind and then when it comes to the filming of it he suddenly thinks actually it's not quite working at how I expected and it's awkward obviously hideously awkward and everyone assumes that I don't think she's put out a statement yet as far as I'm aware which is interesting but yeah it's part of his I think perfectionist approach to his show to this show and I say it's happened before I'm sure it'll happen again but it was particularly high profile because she's probably one of the most famous actors to be cast in The White Lotus right?

1:10:17I mean maybe not the most I'm trying to think I'm trying to rank my brains but she's a high profile figure pretty much so I don't think we knew who the star was who was recast last time whereas we do now because she's such a big star and you couldn't just and you've announced her and then suddenly she's not in the show but then to have Laura Dern who is also a really big actress those two things collided it just seems yes she's worked with they've worked together before she was the star of enlightened which was the brilliant series that he did before um the white lotus so like it's like an easy obvious option for me to go let's have laura dern interesting in the news coverage of it some people are just saying she she's replacing helena bonham carter other people are saying yeah that's what i said yeah no i know but people other people are saying no no no it's a completely different role so it's it's somewhere in between okay so if she's not replacing then And they've said in that statement that Helena Bonham Carter's role is being recast, so we can expect another recasting, right?

1:11:11Maybe. If it's not her. Maybe. And if there isn't, then it's her. Unless they just removed her character entirely, which is possible. Well, no, it isn't possible because you've just read it, and they said they're going to recast the role in the coming weeks. Did you not hear that? They said they've rewritten the role, so they can get away with saying it's a new role because the role's being rewritten. Exactly. They shouldn't have said rewritten and recast, because that's what it says. I listen to you. Yeah, fair enough. Steph's got one of technicalities. I really have. I still think it's ambiguous, yeah.

1:11:38But anyway. Interesting though. Very interesting. Interesting times. Can't wait to see what Helena says. I can't wait to see what Helena says. Oh, I do love her. Okay. Stranger Things, Tales from 84 is getting a season two renewal. You'll be pleased. That's the cartoon. Which we didn't review on this podcast. Yes, I know. But you love animations. Yes, I do. So much. Peter Dinklage cast in Alien Earth 2. Do you care about that? That I think I'd already heard maybe last week, but I don't think we've mentioned it on this podcast. But yes, Peter Dinklage in anything is a good thing. Of course. And you're always here for more Alien Earth.

1:12:11But you're talking about shows that have been renewed. Gen V, the boys' Gen V, has been cancelled after its second season, which is a shame because I quite liked it. Vought Rising, which is the other spin-off, is going ahead. And the boys itself finishes the end of this month. So, yeah. I'm in some more Gen V. I'm in some emotions there. I know. Gen V's quite decent. I was expecting the Gen V characters to be more involved in this final season of The Boys. And look, I haven't finished it. Maybe there will be. But so far, not so much. Oh. Are you furious about that? I mean, furious would be a strong word.

1:12:41It seems perturbed. Yeah. Mildly. I'm cocking an eyebrow. Yeah. There's a raised eyebrow. Cocking an eyebrow. You do like an eyebrow. I do like a raised eyebrow. You're very, very, you've got, you're very into your NVC. Very, very much so. Yeah. Right. Just this morning, the news broke about Netflix casting for the next Harlan Coburn series, The Woods. Who's going to be in that? I'll tell you. Oh, please do. Tom Bateman. Nice. Yeah. Michelle Keegan. Michelle Keegan, back again. Very huge star. For Me Once, she was great in that. She was. For Me Once was the biggest one. Yeah. I still believe it's the most successful of all the Harlan Coburns on Netflix.

1:13:21That was number one. That's really high up in the all-time list. Yeah, it's very good. And that was partly down. She was brilliant in it, wasn't she? She was, but she's such a good actress. She's such a good actress. Mandeep Dillon. Nice. James Buckley off The Inbetweeners. Oh, yes, please. Pierce Quigley. Small Profits. Thank you. The greatest show this year so far. I haven't finished yet, by the way. Oh, God. Tom Allen, the comedian. What? Yes. I know. Yes. Tracy Ann Oberman. Yes. Yes, indeed. And that's about it. That's enough, isn't it? Oh, I'm here for Pierce Quigley in anything. he is absolutely brilliant yeah okay great well there we go exciting stuff it's just starting production now and my guess is it will probably be on around Christmas New Year time this year if they get their skates on I mean that is the traditional is the Holland Coburn slot isn't it exactly exactly any other news?

1:14:12no I gave my Ted Lasso you did you've already ruined news but the trailer looks good I thought I thought you know he's got Tanya Reynolds of Sex Education who you'll love that's right yeah yeah it does look good actually all the regulars back pretty much I like having them back after a little break, especially when we didn't think we'd see them back again. I was going to say, I was going to give us credit by saying I think we absolutely laid out this possibility. Well, I mean, they did tee it up, didn't they? They did tee it up a bit, yeah. But I think we were like, I would definitely come back.

1:14:37Because again, something that's successful, it's not just going to go away forever, especially when all the main players are available. Well, especially since Steph has now started watching it. I started watching it. Well, that's the main thing. Brett Goldstein is clearly aware of that. Yeah, absolutely. And that's why they brought it back. Okay, good. That was news. Should we move on to the reviews? Why not? Let's do that. And we begin this week with Secret Service on ITV, and this is adapted from the book by Tom Bradby, who also acts as the showrunner here. And this sees Gemma Arston as one of Her Majesty's finest, a senior MI6 operative working on the Russia desk.

1:15:11And wouldn't you know it, there may be a spy in the UK government. Boy, you are our man in the Kremlin. So please give us all the classified material you can dig up on this, assuming you are not somehow compromised yourself. Except I am compromised. You are much like the spy. I am literally in the pocket of the Secret Service. Wow. I hosted the screening I'm up for. Do you remember? Because he was like, he loved Emma. That's right. So, Boydie, unfortunately, is the mole. As we know, I'm never in the pocket of anyone, so I'm going to let loose. Yeah. Go for it. Go for it. Right. Bit of background here.

1:15:43You're getting ready here for a big run. Well, bit of background here. Okay. You're in the Secret Service. No. The official secret attack means you cannot disclose your feelings on this show. Well, unfortunately for Gemma, in the background I'm doing a re-watch. And the re-watch is Homeland. And this is very, very unfortunate for Gemma. Because Carrie Matheson can basically never be beaten. And Saul Berenson. I mean, it's just an unfortunate timing for Gemma. I'm sure she's worried about it. The other problem I have with this is that Gemma Arterton is a very good actress. She is excellent. And she's almost too good for this.

1:16:28She's giving movie star... No, I tell you what it is for me. She's giving movie star energy to a more... to a domestic... sort of what feels like a very kind of domestic and quite pedestrian show. I'm sorry. I really want to be behind this because it's ITV and I want to get James to start liking ITV. But my big issues are it... It's nothing I haven't seen before. she her acting she's acting in a role where she's acting in something that nobody else in any of the scenes seems to be acting in honestly i know this is gonna sound really scathing but she she i mean it as a compliment to her she's wonderful but that the the portrayal she puts on is got more big screen energy and this is small screen and it just jars for me um i thought it was a bit boring to be perfectly honest.

1:17:19Wow. I didn't even, I wasn't even bothered about anyone being found out or, you know, the people, I just didn't care. I just thought it was really, really dull. I have said, like, I am watching Homeland. Homeland is, like, one of my favourite shows ever. But... Homeland really went off the rails though, didn't it? No, it didn't. In the middle. Well, it gets increasingly mad as it goes on. Yeah, but... We'll allow it. Okay, right. I could talk a lot about Homeland, but it doesn't, No, it's not that it gets mad. You've got to understand what is happening to Carrie Matheson's state of mind. That is represented in what happens.

1:17:56But let's not get into that, because that's a whole other podcast. I'm not sure you can blame the completely insane plotting entirely on her bipolar disorder. Well, we can get into that in a discussion about it. But, however, I just... Right, okay. It's just not that good. It just isn't. It's just not that good. But it isn't. And like, you know, I'm thinking about Black Doves with Keira Knightley, which was incredible. Like, for this kind of thing to be really good, right, it has to have something different, right? And this has absolutely nothing different. And the plot of the first, so the first episode is there's a secret, there's something, somebody's got an illness, and they think there's a leak somewhere.

1:18:41I don't want to spoil anything. I mean, that's just fucking boring. like I couldn't care less it's boring it's really boring Gemma Arshon is great it's boring there's more to it to be fair it's not just there's a leak somewhere it's that a high ranking politician in the British government has a terminal illness oh I know yawn I mean yawn but that's more that's a different yeah but it's boring like who cares you may find that boring but just in response to what you previously said you said it was just about and I'm saying it's about more than that can I can I just now I totally get I agree with Steph, it has to be said.

1:19:16But I wonder whether it's not so much that inherently this person having an illness is boring, it's that this is really stodgy storytelling. It is so acutely humorless. It is so po-faced. And there are scenes in this where I literally wrote down how can a show with so many good people be this wooden? Because some of the dialogue delivery caused me physical pain. I agree, I totally agree. But genuinely. I just want to get Ray Spall. who is amazing is a brilliant actor why did you do this mate because you've you've done yourself down you're so good you've done yourself down you've done yourself a disservice but a secret disservice you're so right why are so many good people in this it's so wooden Alex Kingston turns up you're great not here you're not I know it's making good actors seem shit yeah and I think genuinely that's it and no massive I mean I guess this is disrespect to Tom Bradby but I just feel that the storytelling here is leaden and it's just it's a bit painful and I, you know, this is so up my alley.

1:20:16Like, this is exactly, and I even like stuff that takes itself quite seriously. But you've got to have a, you know, if you don't have a little bit of levity, you know, you've got to have a little bit of... I don't agree about that. I think there is levity in it. I think Mark Stanley's character who does the oily, incredibly oily, kind of obnoxious politician act. Yawn fast. And Rave Spill's performance in itself is kind of a lighter, is of a lighter. So I think that's where the kind of light stuff comes from is from the performance. You're earning your cash for it. Oh, I'm kidding. In a year's time, no one is going to remember this series.

1:20:47I mean, I'll remember it. I'm going to defend it. You're in the pocket. No, often I get sent stuff in advance and go, you know, are you interested in hosting this thing? And if I think something's terrible, and honestly, I do sometimes turn stuff down. I know it's difficult to believe. But I enjoyed it. I just genuinely enjoyed it. I'm surprised by the extent of the enmity that's pouring out of both of you. I really did. You know, look, I will give anything a go. I am very open-minded. I mean, I just, I couldn't find, I can't find anything in this that I liked. You see, for me, I thought the whole execution, first of all, I think it's John le Carré light.

1:21:24You know, it's very light. Right, but that's the big influence for me. But that is the kind of world we're living in. It's a world where it's looking at the juncture between politics, espionage, intelligence, etc., and the kind of machinations of the highest levels of government and grappling with the Secret Service and grappling with secrets and lies and all of that. So it's definitely the fact that there's a mole somewhere in the government and that one of the government people, it turns out, has a terminally illness. And they've got an undercover agent recording stuff going on at the villa in Malta or wherever the hell it is.

1:22:03Well, it's shot in Malta. I don't know if it's set in Malta. Yeah, no, it's set in Malta. All of those elements, I also really like this stuff. I'm a huge fan of John Le Carre's stuff when sometimes adaptations of his stuff aren't as good as other ones I think Night Manager which we both loved was peak John Le Carre adaptation this isn't as good as that it's kind of mid-level I think it's mid I think it's to be honest okay tell me something which characters do you care about in this? I certainly care about her I think her and Rafe Spall are an interesting couple I think Rafe Spall's really interesting because you're not I think there's a certain amount of uncertainty about him and he's always incredibly watchable and great.

1:22:40But my particular favourite, I have to say, was Mark Stanley as the oily, unbelievably kind of, I don't know, lizard-y, there's a word for it that I've forgotten. But anyway, he is the one, he's the one for me that really, not he's the main reason to watch, but he adds a very enjoyment layer of kind of, you know, possibly the all-too-obvious bad guy in the middle of all this. And I thought he was very effective and fun. And I think it's like one of those shows, it feels like it's got the near of taking itself seriously, but actually once you dig into it, it isn't particularly. As much as a John le Carre story takes itself seriously.

1:23:17Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy, one of the best dramas of all time, you could say, oh, that takes itself very seriously. But there's also the levity within the story within certain characters. But there's also, I would say to that, those stories can take themselves seriously because A, they're very serious in their execution, but also the storytelling is so sophisticated. and it's still very propulsive. The Night Manager isn't a lol fest. And this isn't just a budget issue because obviously they do have budget limitations here and the Night Manager is incredibly lavish. But the storytelling there is so compelling and the characterisation is absolutely on point.

1:23:49Oh, I know. I'm not saying this is as good. I'm not saying that. But the thing is, this should be better than it is, I think, given the calibre of people on screen. I agree. It has got an incredible cast. It really does. Avi Nash is in it, who's brilliant in silo. You've got loads of great people even in the supporting roles. And so I think, I was watching this, I don't understand why this isn't better. It should be better. Yeah, you're watching it. I completely agree. I think all of those people thought it was an interesting and fun story. They were wrong. They were so wrong. Yes, apparently.

1:24:19Opinions differ, sure. They were mistaken. I enjoy it. I genuinely enjoy it. Roger Allen being, I like all the machinations at the different level, the different people trying to be, being kind of difficult with her when she's trying to do the right thing. And then she has to kowtow to all these men that are running things. I thought, I enjoyed all that stuff. I thought it was great. Seen it before, been there, done that, seen it better. I think the seen it before thing, that's why I'm saying it's like mid-level John le Carre. You could say all John le Carre's brilliant novels, genius that he was, were within the same realm and within the same world and dealt with similar...

1:24:48They're all about finding moulds, half of them, you know. So you can reduce anything to we've seen it all before. Fair point. If you've seen it before and it's still fun and interesting and dramatic, and I completely respect your view that it should be much better, I get it. but for me it's fun and interesting and exciting enough within the genre which we've seen before many times for it to be valid viewing it's okay I just re-watch Slow Horses yeah well see if you watch it like yeah I'm just going to bring up Black Doves again I mean come on or Black Bag Black Doves Black Doves is an interesting comparison Black Doves is a much more humorous fun proposition tonally it's different so that's why I keep bringing up yet again the John Le Carre thing it's trying to be like that I don't think it's trying to be anything like Black Doves.

1:25:34I think it's completely different. It is trying to be John Le Carrier. I guess it's whether or not he succeeds. Of course. I don't, you know, I don't disagree. It's fun to have the real life people that have Peston's in it being Peston. You've got, you know, the presenters of Good Morning Britain playing themselves, all that kind of stuff. That added an element of fun to it. I don't know how far... A little bit of ITV cross-promotion there? I think Peston's in episode two. But it's fun to see Peston interviewing the dramatised foreign secretary live on television. All that stuff I thought was entertaining.

1:26:01You see, you're missing out. You should definitely watch episode two. You should have a great time. You'll love it. And you'll do a complete reverse spirit. And you'll agree with me. Secret Service, then. Which is on ITV now? It is on now. Yes. Sunday Nights, I think it's on at the moment. It just says, rappling. Oh, it doesn't matter yet. Sunday Nights. It doesn't matter. You're not going to watch it anyway. And on ITVX. Okie dokie. Right. Next up, we have series two of Amanda Land, which you don't already know, is the spin-off of Motherland, and this is Lucy Punch as Amanda. Now, you may recall last week that Boyd laid down a, I want to say, a trigger warning specifically for me, stating, in no uncertain terms, this episode features a school careers talk that he strongly suspected would cause me to actually physically die.

1:26:52I remember now, yeah. And let me tell you, I was still not prepared. This was a lot. Now, Boydy, you are not in the pay of big Amanda Land. So have at it. I love Amanda Land. I mean, what's interesting about it is for me it's obviously the spin-off from Motherland which was the first iteration where we first met these characters. Amanda, Lucy Punch and Philip Dunn and Felicity, her mum, Jo Lumley. Jo Lumley. Your friend Jo. My friend Jo. And I think this is an example of the perfect spin-off because the original was great. The original was a big ensemble piece. there was a little bit more focus wasn't there on the one character than the others but it was but you met all of these parents who are having various levels of difficulty with their children that it was all about that competitiveness there is i'm sure you know all about stuff when you drop off your kids at school no i just don't try and compete fair enough um but to extract from that show this character of the character of amanda brilliantly portrayed by lucy punch is she's one of the great comedy characters then she's getting there and one of the great comedy performances she's she's in the kind she's like the david brent of this world yeah she's got that brilliant her expressions the physical comment as you say the the her interjections her the dialogue they've written for her is brilliant but so equally is that of all the other characters as well so you know the kind of is there isn't there a frisson um with samuel anderson's character the the the football coach the kid the boys football coach etc the lesbian couple who have been split up in this in this series with one of them being a chef on a luxury line the other one who's a complete idiot is at home not knowing how to turn the electric on they're all superbly delineated characters and what I think this Amanda Lennon does more than any other recent TV comedy I can think of except the Alan Partridge one because Alan Partridge does this every single half hour episode of any Alan Partridge show the sheer number of jokes and one-liners and witty comments and brilliant observations and or it might be a physical bit of slapstick or in this case the first subject of the excruciating, the build of the excruciating talks to the kids is so clever because you get the first one, then you get another one and then it climaxes with her one and there's another one all absolute genius execution of that whole idea of giving a talk to your pupils including one of your own offspring who is absolutely humiliated each time by each of the people who give the talk to the school um it's absolutely brilliant there's a new character called abs who's played by um harriet webb who you remember from big boys she's brilliant in big boys for me the the i'm gonna use the i'm trying to avoid the g word it's overused genius but the brilliance of this show is that you they brought this new character in and with within five seconds of meeting her you completely believe her and she's really funny or she takes against amanda instantly and amanda takes against her there's a competitive thing going on she's absolutely brilliant harriet webb in this performance she's completely real and you totally believe that she's a bit of a snarky superior person who looks down upon amanda and it's and that is a new experience for amanda to have someone looking down on her is really fascinating it dips into all the zeitgeisty stuff about that she's an influence she's constantly filming herself they don't overdo that they kind of like because she's she is you know a middle-aged woman at one point in episode two I think she's like am I middle-aged she's in shock horror but she's a middle-aged person trying to be an influencer they and they don't kind of it that could be cliched and stereotyped and simplistic and obvious but they do in such a brilliant way her filming herself it's just one of the funniest things so every minute there's something funny going on in this show they work so hard at making it work every single scene has has funny stuff going on it's absolutely brilliant I think it should not be underestimated how good it is oh god we're really we're really vibing again Boyd thank god for that I couldn't it's not as funny as Secret Service but it is very funny right everything you said I had written down oh my god you know what thank god for Harriet Webb is such a fantastic addition she's so incredible she's so brilliant I loved her I loved her character in Big Boy so much and she yeah like you instantly get what she's about straight away in this yeah the point that you made about the number of jokes the number of laughs from it's half hour and it's joke after joke after joke but it doesn't they've got the pacing so right how they lay out the jokes it's just so brilliant but my absolute star of Amanda Land is Philippa Dunn who plays Anne oh yeah oh my god she has a real how many have you watched of these Boyd?

1:31:44three okay I watched all of them because well I couldn't stop watching it I couldn't stop watching because it's so funny. Oh no, I would have carried on by that time. So that's enough to do. Philippa Dunn, who is Anne, who is the Irish mother in here, she's sort of the put-upon, you know, best friend of Amanda. And there is an incredible episode. Did you watch the Chatty Petey episode? No, ChatGPT episode. And she calls it Chatty Petey. Oh my God. There's an episode where they discover ChatGPT. She discovers ChatGPT. And it's one of the funniest things I've ever seen. Yeah. I have no notes on this.

1:32:21The one-liners are brilliant. All the setups are great. Joanna Lumley's got a really great subplot running through this second season. It's interesting. She arrives on the football pitch in the cab. In the cab. Just so many things. You don't want to give away all the jokes. There's a great episode where an upmarket coffee house comes to Soha. Soha's delicious. as she calls it and that's great everything's just it's just a joy to watch it's just a joy yeah actually I'm glad you mentioned Philippa Dunn because there's an interesting thing that they do with her character which is that she's newly assertive because there's just like one moment where someone says something almost off hand they say oh you should try you should start telling people what you want to think this is Roshenda Sandals yeah that's right and that I thought they would kind of just do that in the episode but that is part of her arc throughout the series and her telling Amanda what she really thinks of her is incredibly refreshing.

1:33:23It's a bold move because sitcom characters often have one thing, that's their thing. And the thing of her is she was often trod all over by Amanda. She was like Amanda's sidekick, but also enthralled to her. And now she's rebelling against it. It's a brilliant, daring move, I think. Philippa Dunn, for me, makes it. I mean, they're all so exceptionally great at what they do. And I mean, I just want to make note of Lucy Punch's physical comedy I know we just mentioned this is oh yeah I mean you don't see that so often now but just because even her hair tosses everything when she makes her presentation oh my god the running she's into the running now everything is yeah this is a real no notes but Philippa Dunn for me absolutely makes for me she gives me the biggest laughs and she doesn't do anything cringy really does she she doesn't have the cringe gentleman but she's really hilarious.

1:34:19She's the one you identify with. She's the one we're looking at. And I know, listen, I know an Amanda Land. I know an Amanda. I know. We all know lots of those. Yeah, I think we're thinking of the same person. No, but I, you know, when you are a mum's school run. There's a big one. But we all know these kinds of people and that just makes it all the more funny. But yeah, just... Anyway, let's turn to our comedy correspondent, Jane. The thing about this, and I can't speak to Sirius because I never made it past the first episode and I can only really tell you what it looks like from the small crack I can see from underneath my sofa.

1:34:49But when you're talking cringe, the scene that you mentioned, Boyd, which is the careers presentation scene, that is the WMD of cringe comedy. I can't remember honestly ever being in as much emotional pain as I was when I was watching that. It was like being shot through the heart. It was so painful to me. I didn't think I'd make it through the episode. I literally had to stop it at one point and go and make a cup of tea because I just couldn't cope. I should have done your thing, Steph. I should have said, you know what, I'm going to watch this on my phone, like turn it right down and just, because I almost just couldn't handle it.

1:35:26It was too much. It's too much. It is quite painful. Because exactly as you were saying, Boyd, it's the layering. Because you've got this, oh, that's cringe. Oh, that's worse. That's worse. And then you do her one and you're like, oh, God. And then you're like, oh, I've survived it. And then it gets even worse. And you're just like, I can't look at the screen. I can't actually be in my own skull. I can't deal with any of this. It was just, it was one of the most horrific experiences of my life. Boyd, have you got to the episode where I've written down this line because Harriet Webb gets a great line in one of the episodes where Amanda says something disparaging about pastries and she says to her, if you come for Greg's, you come for me.

1:36:06Oh yeah, I've seen that episode. I think that's episode three. Oh my God, it's that kind of writing which I'm like, it so resonates with me as well because I love Greg's. Especially when we were talking about Gales, weren't we? We were talking about Gales in Pilot Plus and I was like, I love Greg's. And Harriet Webb, again, yeah, just brilliant. But James, I'm so sorry. I mean, it is genius. The show is genius. But I just don't have the fortitude for it. I can't survive it. That scene in particular, because I didn't have this, season one of Motherland, not Motherland, of Amandaland. It definitely has, because there's more cringe in Amandaland than Motherland.

1:36:40But this was like, they've dialed it up to 11. Do you know what? They have dialed up but they've dialed up the joke count which is what I think Boyd and I are referring to because it does feel funnier. It feels even funnier. I was always worried actually when they said that it was going to be a Manderland spin-off because I really love Motherland but now I'm like why wouldn't they have done an Manderland? Of course they would. But you say that but it could have failed for the simple reason that a character like that who's quite extreme at times and works as a kind of comedy supporting character could come across as too much if they're the focus of a show.

1:37:10Like it 100 % could happen. but they pulled it off brilliantly. Yeah, I mean, all credit to Lucy Punch. All credit. Yeah. Remembering so many things about that, when she talks about the Far East Investor, so it's HSBC. There's a great episode of When They Get the Dog as well. Oh, so many good. So many good. I have questions about the dog, in terms of training that must have gone on with that dog to do what it does. That's not a CGI dog, right? That's very much a real dog. Yeah, I mean, that's brilliant, whoever the dog trainer slash owner is. And the other thing that was amazing, is Joanna Lumley's character gets a boyfriend.

1:37:47And then when Amanda confronts her and says, basically, you need to wear condoms, and she says that she could get pregnant. And it's like, I could get pregnant if I wanted. It's just so many brilliant things that happen. Every single line. Every single line. That Joanna Lumley gets is a treasure. Every single one. It's fantastic. I'm so sorry that you can't enjoy it. It's like having a gluten. It's like being gluten intolerant. I'm cringe intolerant. I'd like to eat the food, but I can't. The first episode is... Is peak cringe. Is peak cringe. But it's a shame because there's so many funny one-liners in it.

1:38:20There are. There are. There definitely are. I'm sad for you. Don't be sad for me. I mean, this is a man who can't watch Succession. He can't watch, you know... He can't watch some of the greatest TV of all time. He fills it up with the sci-fi. Oh, sweet. Boyd, I have allergies. Like, this is my allergy. I'm allergic to this type of humour. It's okay. I respect that. But maybe try and watch episode two on your phone. on volume one yeah Amanda Land then which lands on BBC One when Boydie? Wednesday the 6th of May 9pm and I think all episodes will be on the iPlayer from then on as well fabulous finally this week we have the new show from responders Tony Schumacher which sees Michael Sokka yes as we've said that is how you pronounce it it rhymes with the sport I say we've discovered this Kay went and found out for us because she asked him it doesn't rhyme with the sport it literally is said like the sport well it technically does rhyme with the sport, but it is the same word.

1:39:12Yes. Oh, yeah, no, you're right. It doesn't rhyme. It's the same word. It's spelled differently. Yeah, okay. Anyway, anyway, anyway, anyway. Michael Socker fought, that is his name, and Sheridan Smith. They're two people who are kind of down on their luck and they both work at a casino and simultaneously have the idea that they might be able to, shall we say, liberate some of their employer's cash to alleviate their financial woes. Clearly, they could have just asked Boydie for a loan, but they didn't. So instead, we are going to ask Steph for a review. oh gosh Sheridan Smith welcome back Sheridan Smith and Michael Socker I just I love these two together I've spoken to a lot of people this morning and they're all watching The Cage everybody's watching The Cage you did a random survey I did no because we talked in the morning like what people everyone's like have you watched The Cage because there's a particular thing that happens in the first episode no I don't want to give away spoiler can I give away spoiler no no you can't people have watched it no you cannot give away a spoiler okay there's something that happens in the first episode to Sheridan Smith's character and you're like oh god no no I can't watch I can't watch I can't watch and that's definitely a spoiler yeah and anyway we were all talking about that this morning if you've watched it you'll know what it is that what it is that happens but what I particularly loved about this as you know my hatred of starting again things is about the fact that there's no scenery there's no you know there's no there's no vistas there's nothing okay but in this loads of vistas well you two won't know about this because you live in ivory towers and you don't get down with the people.

1:40:43The pogs. But the thing is, what's really brilliant about this is that they've managed to... The world around Sheridan Smith is the world that a lot of people live in in this country. And you really get to grips with the idea of that... It's not an abject poverty, but it's like people trying to get by. People just trying to pay their bills. People just trying to have enough money to buy their kids Christmas presents. And I think they've delivered that really, really well in this, exceptionally well. And I love it because, you know, just even, you know, where the people are living on cancel estates and all that kind of stuff, you know, and I live in an area like that.

1:41:19And I've got this is really well done. You totally, both of their characters, you totally believe he's a father. He doesn't, his former partner lives with their daughter and has got another partner. And all of that kind of stuff, I think, is just really well observed and brilliantly executed, which only supports this fantastic story brilliantly. Yeah, the tension's great. I love the alliance between these two. It's hard to talk about this. I know I say this a lot. It's hard to talk about things without giving away spoilers. But yeah, it's brilliant. Absolutely brilliant. Sheridan Smith at her best for me.

1:41:57I think they've both been perfectly cast in this. And yeah, I absolutely loved it. Yeah, I think I'm absolutely delighted and thrilled for Tony Schumacher. who I have interviewed for this podcast. For this podcast. So many times. So many times. With Jathorne, paired. So many times. And because I think the Responder, you know, his first show, right, which was very much steeped in his own knowledge of the police and how the police work. And he had done that job. He's a former law enforcement officer, a.k.a. policeman. And so you're like, but it was kind of 10 times better in a way that had any right to be.

1:42:37Talking of a genre, we were talking before disagreeing about Secret Service and I was saying, you were saying we've seen it all before. In a way, we've seen all of the Responder, what happened to the Responder before. You know, it's a world of overworked police dealing with drug dealers, low-level drug dealers, young kids being exploited by drug dealers, which happens again in this series, right? So we've almost seen some of what this is doing before in his own show, but it's the quality of his writing and the authenticity of it all. And that's so hard to do. That's what I was looking for, the word authentic.

1:43:09It feels so authentic. So English and authentic. It really does feel like that. But I think the brilliant thing for me, this is almost more about the criminal element than it is about the police. And we saw to some degree that element in The Responder, but it was definitely from the police point of view, from Martin Freeman's character particular point of view. Whereas this is more, you've got both of the two leads, Sheridan Smith's character and Michael Sarkis' character does. In-depth kind of character building of those two, right from the start, is so clever. But he also takes no time at all to thrust you into the almost comical situation where these two employees at the casino both have the same idea to steal money at exactly the same time.

1:43:51They're literally in the office together in that great scene. And you're like, it's such a brilliantly conceived moment. I imagine him punching the air, going, this is such a great idea that I've got and I'm going to execute it really well to make it seem believable even though it's a little bit far-fetched in some ways. So it's incredibly authentic. It's unbelievably moving. There's a kind of, talk about ABC plots, right? So like there's a C plot really that is her gran, Shoda Smith's gran, who's got Alzheimer's that's unbelievably moving. That would be enough for a whole other series. You could do a 6-8 part in the world we're living in right now drama about an elderly lady having Alzheimer's and what that is.

1:44:28It's beautiful, that scene. And it's so brilliantly done, again, just the, you know, loads of families experience relatives with Alzheimer's. It resonates so brilliantly. It resonates so brilliantly, yeah. It's so well observed. It's almost painful how well observed that stuff is. It is, yeah, yeah. But even the teens as well, there's teenage characters in there that are getting involved with drugs and all of that. We've seen it all before, to quote you, but no, no, no, but it's so brilliantly done that it's irrelevant that we've seen it all before. That's the key. Because he brings a freshness to it in every single way.

1:44:58and the criminal robbing storyline which is the main the A storyline if you like to use these terms rather pretentiously it's so well executed again you just go along with the whole thing and so yeah she's incredible Michael Sokka I think this is one of the most interesting roles because he tends to play he tends to play quite kind of not necessarily violent but quite scary characters in a way remember what it feels like to be a girl he was in that as the dad and he was quite scary in that. Whereas in this, he's kind of, he's a flawed, you see his flaws there. But he's lovable. But he's kind of lovable.

1:45:35He's a recovering addict. Exactly. There's a scene where he's wrapping up, you know, some drugs and he's talking to himself. Yeah, relatable is the word here. Relatable, it resonates. It's, yeah. But it is, and finally, my final point, that you touched upon, is that we're talking in our ivory towers, you know. it still is really rare to get proper working class stories in TV drama and this is how to do it I think this is where people on the edge because they can't afford stuff that is the bottom line of this show and that's incredibly pertinent to what we're living in now in his case it's because he has a gambling addiction more than anything else yeah it's just I think the other but you know like I said I live in an area like this and there's kids out on their bikes kicking balls against the no ball games allowed sign.

1:46:27I live in an area like that. And these, you know, I know people who have got their grounds, who've got dementia, so it feels, it's just so real to me. And not in an overtly depressing way, in a way that this is just their life and this is what they deal with and you're dealing with this level of poverty. Like I said, it's not abject poverty, but it is a level of poverty where people are trying to raise themselves out of this and get by. People just want, these people want to get by. But it feels like he's joining the, you know, like a list of TV writers like Jimmy McGovern and Alan Bledon. I'm talking about Dennis Potter.

1:47:03May I even say Rossity Davis of like people writing about real stuff going on in such a brilliant, pertinent way. They're reflecting, if I'm going to get really pompous now, the society that we live in. Yeah, no, I completely agree with you. I completely agree with you. Yeah, I agree with all of what you're saying. There were a couple of things that bugged me. Here we go. one was I felt like there were certain decisions made look it's very easy to say these characters are so stupid it's frustrating but generally speaking people who are robbing they're not criminal masterminds like this isn't Danny Ocean like it's a very but some of the things and the thing that you referenced earlier which we will not spoil that sequence annoyed me it's a bit stupid it annoyed me for the stupidity but also kind of because you know if you have a little bit of what they call like fairness sensitivity like it's enraging infuriating like it's quite a stressful moment like it's really intense but the thing is like I think she plays that particularly well again not spoiling what it is in that her reaction to it is just like it just knocks the feet out from under you which is a hard thing to actually you've reminded me of something sorry go on no go go for it there's one criticism I have which is that corridors sorry no no no no corridors fine very early on she has like a primal scream moment right she's standing on the roof and she screams and then again she does the promise and i thought if they hadn't done the first one the second one would have hit harder i agree i don't think i would have edited i would have that's a very small it's a note it's a note from me yeah to the great tony but the first one i don't think yeah did enough the second one you're there for it you feel it and it feels like okay we've been here before yeah i i think i would have made that same decision um and there was another scene and again i think when they encounter each other and they both had the same idea there was just one note there which again I don't really want to say but it's just the fact that she's holding the cash like that I just thought really?

1:48:54Like you know if you were going to steal a load of money I don't know I'd shove it in a pocket just me I'm not a criminal mastermind but that's just my tip But don't you think that this is exactly how it would play out with those people who live in that world? And I think honestly that is the point because like if you're thinking of this thing if you were a mastermind what would you do? But these are they're not criminal masterminds they are just trying to eke out a living and they see an opportunity and for right or wrong wrong they take that opportunity but I think you know it has a layer of believability to it which I think Tony Schumacher did bring to the responder where it does feel there's something about it that just feels very authentic and yeah it's really well shot by the way isn't it I think you could think it would be grim and gritty and kind of grueling but there's something about the way it's shot it's actually quite brightly lit bright it doesn't feel that the vista you talked about which looked very similar to me to adolescence off the top of my head it does yeah yeah yeah isn't it you know that when you see the exterior well it's Liverpool isn't it so it's kind of like feels like yeah similar area they may have even filmed it close by but visually it's much more interesting than you might expect I think which is very important actually even I actually quite like the scenes where they're just getting to work and walking through the casino which could be really labelled and boring oh and I've completely forgotten the thing I'm really mad at the music oh my god the music and I know Tony Schoenberg he's very into choosing his music I'd be interested to know how many of the songs that he picked are in the script because you get pretty much through the whole of a New Order song early on.

1:50:19Almost the entirety of a The The song. It's all 80s music. And you think, why? First of all, by the way, you know that computer in the office that looks like something out of the 80s? And one of our colleagues complained about that to me this morning saying she didn't understand would that computer still be working when it's such an ancient desktop thing? And I was like, I think it probably would because all it's dealing with is figures being tapped into it. But to start with, it's a bit confusing because you've got 80s music on the soundtrack and this very 80s-ish computer like is this with an old dot matrix printer but then it turns out that the daughter character of Michael Sockazolte is into 80s music you remember they start talking about Crash Mode and I loved all that this is just Tony Schumacher using his own obsession because he's a similar age to me I think probably younger where 80s music is everything and I love the music choices absolutely brilliant yeah The Cage then BBC One yes also started last week so it's ongoing on and I think all the episodes are on the iPlayer now and it's on Sunday night if you're watching live.

1:51:20Is it Sunday night or Monday night? One of the two. Sunday night. Excellent. What else is out this week? Okay. So he turns to his copy. It's a classic. Legends. Legends. Legends, which we will do on Pilot Plus most likely. We will do on Pilot Plus. That's on Netflix on Thursday. That's the show that Steve Coogan's in and I interviewed Steve Coogan with James watching on closely from Mumbai in this very studio a couple of weeks ago. Did I just do that? Was I off? Yeah, you were off. So that interview will be on with him and he mentions the fact of course he's in The White Lotus coming up. Oh yeah.

1:51:54There is do you remember The Patient? Do you remember that thing with Steve Carell and Donald Gleeson where he was the shrink and Donald Gleeson's character was the patient and he turned out to be a serial killer. Do you remember that? I actually do. ITVX is showing it on Wednesday if you don't have access to Disney+. And that was a very interesting show Citadel returns to Prime Video it does the most expensive TV show ever made that's arriving on Wednesday should you wish to continue watching it number one fan which is the latest Channel 5 slash just 5 as it's now known thriller is on Monday to Thursday Stalker Stalker and that starts the funny thing about it is it stars Jill Halfpenny and Sally Lindsay who are literally the faces of 5 yes they are they are in everything on 5 from not just drama shows but to quiz shows Talking heads Reality shows Talking heads They are on everything But fair enough The show called Unconditional On Apple TV on Friday Which is an Israeli drama That has a premise where It's a mother-daughter Going on vacation together And then the daughter's accused Of something And the mother has to fight For her freedom And it's quite new It's quite interesting Unconditional Apple TV And I believe MIA Comes to Paramount Plus I want to say Which is the new show From the creator of Ozark And that drops on Thursday Correct I love Ozark I think that's about it okay that is about it what is our pick of the week secret service alright Stephanie Steph's pick alright I can't pick between them they're both brilliant the mandalands and the cage they're both brilliant yeah the cage oh I don't know I mean for lol fest the thing about a mandaland it's such a joy to have it in these times isn't it I'd say a mandaland we didn't do pick of the week last week did we not no but it was okay because we all agreed it was Widow's Bay Widow's Bay yes correct we ran out of time because we got evicted from the studio okay I'm going to go with the mandaland as well, even though I can never, ever watch that episode ever.

1:53:42Watch it on your phone. Ever again. I'm going to buy you one of those kind of tiny watches. I'll just watch it on my watch. That might be the way to go. Okay, brilliant. That is it for this week's show. We hope you enjoyed it. Please do leave us a nice review on whatever podcast platform you so choose. And please do subscribe to Pilot Plus as well at pilottvpod.com. We will be back in your ears on Thursday, probably reviewing Legends on Pilot Plus. And next week, what is happening next? Steve Coogan as Boyd mentioned will be on the podcast next week The Punisher One Last Kill is out next week now technically that is a one-off TV dramatic event it's not a film but it is a one-off event will that qualify?

1:54:20who knows Good Omens season 3 the final season of Good Omens comes to Prime next week that's a one-off as well there you go is that a film? hard to say Off Campus comes to Prime what is it oh the fourth series of From From is returning to Sky 1 a show that only I watch yeah Dutton Ranch is on Paramount Plus That is the latest Yellowstone universe installment. The fifth. The fifth. Yeah. Offshoot. And Rivals. Returns to Disney. Rivals. Yes, let's have it. We'll almost certainly be embargoed, but we'll see. Oh, do you know what? I missed out a show on the also out, which is Believe Me, which is a true crime drama.

1:54:54Oh. It's on Sunday, this coming Sunday on ITV. What's that about? That is about, is it John Warboys? Oh, okay. The taxi cab rapist. Traumatic. Yeah, traumatic. but that is quite a big deal with Danny Mays Danny Mays okay well that's a must watch in the lead role yeah okay so we might do that retrospective that starts on Sunday coming on ITV we will see right that's it for us I'm off to file a lawsuit against Bauer Media for the awful editing of this podcast and frankly the bullying that I suffer from Boyd and stuff Pilots out