Wonder Man, The Beauty, and Under Salt Marsh. With Ashton Kutcher, Jeremy Pope, Anthony Ramos, Evan Peters, Rebecca Hall, Kelly Reilly & Rafe Spall

27:19You've got an exercise bike where you're sitting doing weights. In front of my massive TV. Crucially, I'm not doing weights on the exercise bike. That would be weird and dangerous. Whilst watching some Marvel shows. Shows about K-pop. This is so wild. Oh, my God. It is an incredible development. It really, really is. You secret exerciser. Yeah. Wow. No one's noticed. I'm not saying it's not working or it's working. No, it's good. You're maintaining your prime weight and physique. Yes. Good for you. well done let's be supportive are you going to revive the biggest loser I mean who knows who knows to be fair I do have to work off the Toblerones there's enormous Toblerones I had over Christmas like Alan Partridge you've overdosed on Toblerone I have like Alan Partridge in so many ways exactly I'm modelling my whole life after him wow that is a revelation it is a revelation but weirdly I was saying to Boy this morning I cannot stop watching the variety actors on actors interviews I can't stop watching them do they count as TV or you know well I think they do kind of yeah 30 minutes they actually now I come to mention there is one channel that I think does show them and I'm trying to remember which one it is just watched the Leo and Jennifer Lawrence one which was great I think maybe kind of repackages them for yeah so you can actually see them on TV they are brilliant I love them as well yeah I've been I've been I've been doing that and watching like continuously watching the best of Between Two Ferns where they clip things together because I just love that oh yeah yeah Zach Galifianakis hilarious anyway so yeah I'm all for the bite-sized bits of entertainment.

28:50I'm going to watch some of those. I won't do it on a bike whilst lifting weights and trying to maintain my prime weight. Where did you get your exercise bike from? I mean, a very large, very famous mail-order conglomerate. Oh, okay. Oh, like Argos? Yes, from Argos. I mean, basically. You can mention them. We're not the BBC. Yes, I got it off Amazon. It was not expensive. Maybe I should get an exercise bike. What? You should. What is happening? Boyd, to be honest, you're the perfect person to do it because if you got on an exercise bike in front of your TV, it'd be like being on the LED volume because your TV is so fucking huge.

29:26You'd be completely immersed. I would like to know if the listeners are also exercising whilst they're watching shows. Or listening to this podcast. Who knows? Wow. But the reason I started doing it with the documentaries is because I felt like, especially when not doing the cycling stuff, I'm not giving it my full attention. So I thought, I don't want to review shows while doing it because I'm not paying. So a documentary felt like a good middle ground of something that I can kind of dip in and out of as I'm doing things. Okay, wow. Yeah, all makes sense. Right, fine, okay. Good, I'm glad we had this scintillating conversation.

29:55Shall we move on to this week's guests? And when I say guests, I do mean guests, plural. Okay, look, Ryan Murphy doesn't do things by halves, so neither did we for this particular interview spot. So we assembled a veritable Avengers of cast from his new show, The Beauty. This is spread across two different interviews, and the show, if you don't know, is kind of a twisted body image saga about a sexually transmitted syndrome that grants the infected model-like looks, ripped gym bods and homicidal tendencies. And frankly, you can get all of that just from cycling in front of a documentary in your living room.

30:30But this is Murphy, I would say, at his most Murphy-like. This is peak Murphy. And Boyd, he spoke to, deep breath, Ashton Kutcher, Jeremy Pope and Anthony Ramos and then seamlessly ran out of that room hopped next door and spoke to Evan Peters and Rebecca Hall and you are going to hear both of those chats back to back right now Boydie how was that was it a bit like speed dating it was it was it was intense yeah but can I just say there's a brilliant moment listen out for the moment when I ask Ashton Kutcher about Yacht Rock there's a brilliant Yacht Rock moment in the show involving the song Sailing right and I for some reason I couldn't get this phrase Yacht Rock out of my mouth so I went Yacht Music and I'm saying there's this brilliant scene where you talk about yacht music and the actual creature looks at me and goes what the fuck are you talking about and then luckily like realises what I'm talking about and then we talk about yacht rock extensively for the rest of the interview probably yes but it was it was it was classic it was classic and I love yacht rock so you know famously doubly annoying yeah so there's a lengthy discussion of Christopher Cross coming up you'll be pleased to know this is Bordy talking about yacht music hi guys welcome to the Pilot TV podcast welcome to London And I think I'm the first of the days.

31:45We're kicking it off with you. Yeah. It feels right. It's fire. Come on. You're going to get like full energy. The rest of the day, we're just going like this. I'm thrilled. You're getting the whole. You're going to get all of it. Which is appropriate. So this show, The Beauty, has everything in it. It's got like body horror. It's got satire. It's got dark comedy. But it feels to me like a Ryan Murphy thing. It's almost like he's become his own genre. What was it like for you, Ashton, to enter into the Ryan Murphy world? it's a privilege and an honor like i i i i've always been a fan of his like since like i glee and uh and i i mean i you have to imagine i'm like a show choir kid that grew up in the country and that's not very popular in in the country right and so like to me that show was like a celebration and and then he went into this whole horror genre and everything going nip tuck and And it's kind of like, and I remember sitting with him before we ever started when he was just talking to me about playing this role.

32:46He was like, I'm going to bring all the elements of all the things I've done together in this basket and then present it to people. And the most magical thing that he does is he's got his finger on the pulse of pop culture and that social conversation that people are having. and we're going through a moment in society in the world right now where people are trying to decide how much is too much because it you know like botox used to be this thing that people got done but nobody told anybody they got done now it's like people go get a coffee and a botox it's like that's like a that's like a date that you go on you know and it's like braces used to be these big metal now they're like invisaligns and adults are wearing them and go and and all of these things are becoming normalized over time.

33:35And this show is like a pseudo cautionary tale, but at the same time, just a question to people to say, hey, where are you at? Where's your litmus in the world relative to how far you would go to be your most optimized self? And then when you got there, would you be happy? Absolutely. And since your first Ryan Murphy show, right? How was it for you? It was great. It was a lot of learning, learning as you go. I mean, we were crossboarding, so we were shooting episodes out of order. I mean, usually do, but this one definitely felt, I mean, like you were just, you had to trust the whole time. Like you didn't, because we didn't know how the show was going to end.

34:20We didn't, we were getting episodes as we, as we went. And And yeah, man, it was like we were also building the characters as we went as well. You know, it wasn't it wasn't like the world was completely built, like things like the transformations, you know, the transformation was one thing in the script. And then we got to set. And then Ryan's like, actually, no, like I want to change this whole thing in the way people transform in the way, you know, and and, you know, and, you know, this is this is what it's gonna look like them going from pre-beauty to you know to beauty and um you know and that was that was a big change on the spot and then just different things like with my character with the eye patch he you know his face in the comic books is is his face is almost all burned and he and he has a mask and we tried the mask we had to change that and then we did a smaller burn we put an eye patch on we did different variations so all of that um there were lot of changes as it's a trust game yeah you got you when you enter into the world of ryan you have to just turn over your trust to him and and know that he's going to execute um and and and that becomes a really fun collaboration it's like it's like having a partner in life that you know that in the moments you need them they'll be there for you yeah jeremy you're past master working with Ryan.

35:47And you must be, I guess, when you sign on to Ryan, you know that it's very exposing. I mean, all of you guys have incredible scenes where violence and sex and nudity and all of that. Hey kid. Yeah. We're all naked. Everybody. Every single one of us. Exactly. Yeah. The intimacy coordinates must have been like, you must have had dozens of them. We're very familiar. Busy. Is it fun though, like to be able to do all that? It is. I mean, I think what you realize or you see in Ryan's universe, people say, He works with a lot of the same actors and artists, and I think it's because he knows how to champion artists and the nuance of who and what we are.

36:20He allows us to stretch. He gives us opportunities that sometimes other people may not see for us. And I think he understands artists are shapeshifters, you know, until they're given the language or the ability or the character or a wig or whatever it is that evokes an energy out of you. So I think from my experience working with Ryan, it's been a thrill because each time, each iteration has been different. It is a trust and I've trusted before, but you trust the visionary, the vision. And he has a very specific one. I think people can identify Ryan's work as soon as you see a trailer or an image.

36:51And I think that's powerful because he's creating like a currency, a visual currency of what the world can look like. You know, so I think with this show, he called me and I was like, let's go on this weird, wild, explosive journey. And that's literally what I signed up for. And I got it's definitely weird and wild. One of my favorite bits is that you're on your yacht and you say can we have some yacht music and Then it cuts to you singing sailing by Christopher Cross. This the sailing scene is fantastic Did you know that song before no? No, I did not no no no right now, right? I saw it on the in the script I'm like, oh, I don't know this song.

37:27So I'm listening to it. I'm like, wow, this is a smash. I said, hey, and then Classic yeah, Christopher Cross got hits. Oh, oh You know, like you gotta be, I mean, you gotta be a pretty amazing artist. Michael McDonald singing backup vocals on Ride Like the Wind. I'm like, who gets Michael McDonald sing backgrounds? But it was, yeah, he just texted me. He's like, hey, I want you to learn this song. And I was like, okay, how much? He was like, the whole thing. I was like, the whole thing? I'm like, we're gonna do a four minute sequence of me singing, but I was like, let's do it. And I learned the whole thing and we did like 13, 14 takes or something like that.

38:07It was our first day on set. And that was our first day. We started the day very musical. We started the season very, at least for me and Ant. That was so much fun though, man. It was bonding over Crystal Cross. I mean, one more. I mean, that's, that's, yeah. It's not far down. Come on. I'm tempted to get to sing that song now. It is fantastic. All right, all right. Maybe later. We talked about the daring, bold scenes of intimacy. You just throw yourself into those. I mean, there's one aboard a plane that I thought was quite extraordinary. Is it just embarrassing to do those scenes or do you used to after all these years?

38:41I remember getting that scene and being like, oh, my God, what did I sign up for? Like, this is like and then it was funny because I I shot it. And then I went back to my small town in Iowa for a funeral right after. and my aunt was there and she's like, oh, what have you been working on? What are you doing? I was like, I'm working on this thing but you can't watch it. Like you cannot, like I'm not going to be comfortable like talking to my aunt and my aunt and having her, like, and she's like, I saw you when you were a baby. It's fine. And so I'm like, okay, fine. It's scary but exciting at the same time because you know if it's done well, it'll be, it's something that people haven't seen before.

39:29And I think like again and again and again, when I got pages for this as we were shooting it, it was like this, it pops and it's shocking to you to play it. But you also know it will be extraordinary for an audience and it'll feel original. And so much of what we see today feels extraordinarily derivative. and this is another one of the I mean this guy is a masterful craftsman and wordsmith but like he builds tension in different ways that I've never experienced before it was playing Ryan's scenes is probably one of the top greatest joys I've had as a performer and the scene where you two You're naked and you're not.

40:24How was that for you? Was that fun? It was because I've known this cat for 15 years. We went to college together. So that's family. So, yeah, if you're going to be naked, you're going to be naked with somebody you know. Yes, you're going to be naked with your brother. You're going to be naked with somebody you know. But I think, you know, if anything, again, a lot of these Ryan scenes in the world requires a lot of you physically, emotionally. But it was I had the best time. You know, I felt very supported from the team we had. Yes, the intimacy coordinator. You know, she was on the clock most of the days working.

40:55She was working. Yeah. But I think if anything, it really impacted the story and it allowed us to just try new things and have fun while doing so. It's also like you're in the show's about like a rebirth of self. And so you come into this world naked and there's something that happens when you're doing that. and you have a character that's doing that that causes you to have like an emotionally naked moment as well and and in the wrong hands it's just exploitive and in the right hands it it that emotionally naked moment is exposed and and i think that ryan's just got the right hands absolutely yeah no it's incredible thank you so much great to meet you yeah pleasure thank you I've just been talking to your co-stars and colleagues about working with Ryan Murphy and of course you are the parts master but you're the newbie how was it for you I'm the newbie how was it for you to enter this crazy sick twisted world don't put words in my mouth no I'm saying that yeah yeah no you may disagree I know but I might repeat you if you do you fall into my trap I know how was it for you though you've been this mad it's fantastic I do feel really I feel really lucky it's so fun I mean when Ryan asked me to be part of this I didn't read the script he just took me out for a breakfast and sat opposite me and described to me the whole concept of the show including a very detailed description of the first five minutes of episode one and it was kind of like I was having a slight out of body experience while he was doing it because I was like is this really is this Ryan Murphy is pitching me the most Ryan Murphy sounding show that has ever existed Peak Murphy Peak Peak Murphy and I was like I will repeat that one and it I was just like oh well this is a no brainer I mean there's not anyone I can't think of anyone that's not going to want to watch this it just sounds so fun and insane and unhinged and delightful and satirical and kind of subversive and provocative and all the things that Ryan Murphy can be so it's and then he asked me to do another one And so I was just like, great, I'm having a ball.

43:17You're part of the game. Yeah, I'm having a ball. Yeah. And then you, I mean, there's barely a Ryan Murphy show you're not in, but how is this? It does feel even more of him, as we were saying, than ever before. Like, he's got all those elements, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah, it does. Yeah. And how was it? And was it kind of, what is it like? What's unique about him? Why have you worked with him so many times? And what does he kind of give you? He's just a great collaborator and truly a visionary. I mean when I read the comic book series they created this amazing world with this virus and drug in it and it's very dystopian what was that going to look like and camp at certain times and I thought what's Ryan going to do with this it's going to be I was just excited to see his vision because it is usually very strong and confident and provocative so yeah and again he's a great collaborator and gives you an opportunity to do something new and try that out.

44:14And I thought it was very him that right from the start, we're plunged into the fact that the two of you are not only just colleagues, but also intimate with each other. Lovers. Lovers. Lovers. Let's say lovers. Lovers, that word. Which is such an interesting start. That's an interesting start to the show. What did you make of that? The thrust right in there from the start. Yeah, you did say, yeah. Good word. Thank you. That was the first scene that we shot. That was the first scene that we shot. Yeah. Wow. This is our first hello, nice to meet you. Very Ryan to make us do that, don't you think?

44:45Yeah, very. Why don't we start with that? That'll be more fun. That'll be spicy. But I don't think it was out of place. It wasn't like, he wasn't trying to be mean, I think. No, not at all. No. It was great in a way to like. It created the, you know, that scene really starts the whole, our journey or our dynamic, I guess is the best way to put it. Yeah. so so it was a very smart scene to actually start with and break the ice exactly because then every scene thereafter where you know we know each other yeah I was saying to the other guys that the intimacy coordinator must have been kept very busy in this show like yeah indeed indeed yeah and the two of you have this great kind of relationship in the show it's almost like a buddy cop kind of thing the scenes between you two have a kind of really different vibe to some of the other things going on in the show was that fun did you have that did you kind of develop that from the start did you get to meet up and kind of decide how that was going to work no i think we just got lucky and when we when we met there we sort of naturally kind of riffed off each other and it was sort of easy to bring that energy into the into the material and when ryan asked me to do this one of the things he said to me was like i just want you to be you can you do that thing when you're like british and you know i'm a little cheeky just to do that.

46:07And I was like, so you want me to bring more of that? I can add-lib lines? It's like, yeah, yeah. So I did get to do that. Also, I never really get to do that as an actor. I'm really always playing very serious people who are Americans, who are also very serious. So it was nice to, I don't know, just bring some levity and be a bit more myself, actually. It feels that he does allow you guys to improvise, to do stuff on the spur of the moment. I mean, is that true? Yeah, definitely. Yeah, he's always open to new ideas and playing around with the script. And he'll come in there and just be like, let's just not do that.

46:44Yeah, just riff or whatever. Yeah, just skip that. So it's a very of-the-moment creativity. I guess the whole thing is partly about... It's not the right way. That is not the right way. No, but I was just thinking about it. Is it of the moment? Of the moment. Of the moment. All right. I think of the moment was good. Yeah. I think it was good, yeah. Thank you. It's a pleasure. You need my approval for that. I feel like the whole show is about, you know, the appearance. Here we go. Yeah. All those things. Here it comes. Do you feel that pressure of needing to look a certain way, needing to look like immaculate when you're...

47:21We're actors. Part of our job is to be looked at. You know, it affects so many aspects of what we do, whether it's how long we spend in the makeup chair, how long it takes to light our faces. that we have constantly, our jobs were being looked at. Like all the people in this room, the makeup comes in. Yeah, of course, it's there. And like, I'm not immune to vanity. I don't know about you. Are you immune to vanity? That's the question. I played in fifth. Entirely immune to vanity. You never look in the mirror. You never look at yourself. I've never looked in the mirror once.

47:57But I think, you know, I also try and, you know, So I like that this show is sort of, in a sense, getting into the obsession and dangers of all of that. And also this is not something that's new. I mean, the power and the commodification of beauty has been around since humankind. There's a Greek myth, there's Dorian Gray. And the sort of proximity of ugliness to that and the kind of flip side of that and the dangers of pursuing it. and I just like to remember that I'm also an actor and it's important to like not have vanity as an actor and like be prepared to look terrible as much as it is important to look good at times and also that I think on a larger scale do whatever you need to do to make yourself feel more like yourself but be careful holding on to what it is that makes yourself because we live in a world where everyone's and the internet is kind of algorithmically drilling into our psyche telling us we're not good enough.

48:58So it can be hard to maintain that North Star. And I think the show is touching on that because ultimately it's like, what is you? What is the you that makes you beautiful? Absolutely. And I think more and more for men is what it feels like. And I think this show addresses that, the idea of male beauty and having a six-pack and all of that, the pressures of all that. That's interesting, isn't it? At that explanation. Yeah. You're not vain. I still think it's 100 times harder for women. But yeah, you were saying earlier that it's, you know, I guess. I don't know. Were you agreeing with the hypothesis that men, I mean, it's much worse.

49:36No, but I think men are catching up. Like I see it more and more and more, the pressures of like, you see this stuff of like men feeling like, you know, they have to look a certain way in order to get a date. It's like it's become, I feel it used to be other things and now it's much more physical based. but I'm just training off help me out your voice is getting quieter that's right I'm saying it's hard for everybody it's hard for everybody we can agree on that we can agree on that but it's probably it's hard it's hard thank you and now I've run out of time anyway so it's fine thank you so much thanks to me okay that was basically everyone involved in the beauty time now for this week's listener question and this week's listener question comes from Melanie Port and Melanie says hi Melanie hi Melanie She doesn't say that because that's her name.

50:25Hello, pilot team. Welcome into Kay's shoes, Steph. Hope they fit well. Melanie, thank you. You are lovely. Melanie says, I've given in this week and subscribed to Plus. Well done. Well done, as you all should do, for it is a bargain. I felt like you needed some balance after Boyd telling everyone to listen to Redacted, other podcast name here. She's also subscribed to them. Very much enjoy hearing the variety of opinions on the show. thanks to my fella Andy for introducing me to your bonkers world. Hi Andy. But her question, her question is this. She, and presumably Andy, like to watch a 30-minute comedy in bed to cleanse the brain palate of all the horror in the world and of all their other TV choices apparently.

51:09We have watched far too many to list but are always on the lookout for new recommendations. Which less well-known comedy series would each of you recommend ideally with a few belly laughs? We love things like here we go but appreciate that might not be very helpful sorry if you've done this before as I say new paid subscriber thank you and wishing the pod every success for 2026 Mel Mel is delightful can I just say that's a lovely email and she's signed it off and I'd like just Mel welcome welcome welcome Mel now now I I have got a lot to say about this so have I because the thing is I sort of was like now I don't know how old Mel is so I don't know if she's missed comedies that I think that she should have watched, okay?

51:56So I'm going to read off my list of things that I thoroughly enjoy. Okay, this is good. Because I have a list of like 30 things. Mel, get a pen and a pencil. So, I don't know. Or just one or the other. Because there's some things that I think everybody's watched, but I'm going to mention them anyway, right. So completely going against the topic of the question. Don't start with friends. Don't start with friends. Okay, not friends. Or Seinfeld. Because I don't know how old Mel is. I don't know whether she... Or if she was doing something else at a particular time when things were coming out. Lesser known was the criteria.

52:25So I think lesser known could be very old, you might not have heard of it, or it could be obscure. So I think something that she probably just hasn't stumbled across. And also the clues in, they're like, here we go. I know. Which is a... Right, yeah. That's kind of like a British, you know. Right, okay, so. But I'm like very kind of, I lean towards American comedies. So a lot of mine are American. I'm just going to read the list. That's fine. Like James does as well. You both do. Right. One of mine, which I always feel is like completely underrated and never won any awards, and it should have, King of Queens.

52:57Don't make that face. No, no, no, just listen. Mel, literally, I can hear her cancelling her subscription live in real time. Stay with me. I'm going to read them all. Arrested Development. I don't know whether she's missed the Arrested Development boat. I think she's probably seen Arrested Development. Mel, can you please confirm? I like the fact that we're guessing. I have no idea. You don't know. Mel strikes me as the kind of person who has tried Arrested Development and didn't like it. Wow Okay Mel Can you come into the studio No you don't know that though But if you haven't watched Arrested Development It's absolutely fabulous I mean it's fine And I also think Okay What I would say is You can do a rewatch I love Arrested Development as well But it is an acquired taste It is It's quite divisive I never acquired it A lot of people don't like it You two are an acquired taste And this woman Has subscribed to the podcast That's always money in the banana No no no I'm just throwing in there The fact that She wouldn't necessarily go Oh yeah It's not necessarily for everyone That show Which is why it might Which is why everyone is overlooked.

53:52I think the good thing about Restors of Development is you know within the first episode whether it's your kind of thing or not. I think it's got the kookiness that she likes that's in the show. Possibly. Here We Go isn't in any way surreal. No, but it's kind of kooky, isn't it? Oh, yeah. I don't know if I'd call it kooky. I don't know. I think it finds the humour in everyday events, everyday family events, whereas Restors of Development is very much we are doing something eccentric. Yeah, humour out of mundanity versus X or Highton. And Flights of Fantasy, Flights of Fantasy, literally. Anyway, I'm going to keep going.

54:26I'm going to keep going. I'm sorry for even... I'm going to keep going. Parks and Rec. Do you think she's watched it? After season three, season three onwards. But yeah, go for it. Parks and Rec. We're in agreeance on that. Okay, Brooklyn Nine-Nine. It's a good choice. I think she's probably stumbled across that one on Netflix. I'm just going to keep going. Okay, you press on. Trial and Error on Prime. Either of you know this show? No. Kristen Chenoweth, two seasons, mockumentary on true life crime, real life crime. Now you come to mention it, yeah, rings a bell. Yeah, I think that's a good call.

54:57Kristen Chenoweth is great. I've never even heard of that show, but she's obviously fabulous. It's really funny. I like spoofs of genres. I like that. If you're doing mockumentaries, I think any of the kunk series should be considered for this. Okay, but back to my list, right? Working Mums, I feel like that never, ever, ever got the plaudits that should. Which one was that? Catherine Reitman, Canadian show. Working Mums. Oh, it's brilliant. Okay. Crucially, you do not have to be a working mum. What were you going to say? Oh, yeah, no, no. You've gone for the obscure there, which is answering the question.

55:31Okay, Working Mums. And then I was just going to, she's definitely watched this Big Boys because that's recent, but I love that. But not everyone has seen it, to be fair. Big Boys, must watch. And then I'm going to say something really random, which is you're going to be like, what are you talking about? That's a kid's show. but thoroughly entertaining and hilarious for 30 minutes Bluey no and also they're like 7 minutes long horrible histories I'm just going to say as kind of a left field thing horrible histories and also you learn a lot so that is my list did I miss anything off oh yes I did one thing one of my favourite sitcoms ever Ryan Reynolds Two Guys and a Girl also Canadian originally Two Guys and a Girl and a Pizza Place fabulous show but then they decided they had enough of pizza and they went to a different restaurant they yeah they moved on from the pizza place two guys and a girl that is my list nice yeah you've got 30 to get through well maybe not 30 but I've got a big chunk of them yeah go on then okay okay shall I just rattle through them I ran through them some of these not all of these are obscure some of them will surprise you my first one I've presented these in alphabetical order oh Jesus right okay so beginning with B's bad education Jack Whitehall as an anarchic classroom teacher.

56:47Loads of fun. I feel like she would have watched that. She probably will do. I'm doing what you want to do. No, no, that's fair. She probably would have watched. You never know. You never know. Good shout. And then, obviously, I was going to go straight from that to Barry on HBO, which is great. But, again, quite famous. She's probably seen that. But it's really good. Although, I will say, if you're looking specifically for laughs, it becomes less funny as it goes. It becomes more dramatic. But that's an option. Big boys, you said. If we're going back in time, Black Books, yes, it's Graham Linehan, who is now Persona Non Grata, but still very, very funny.

57:15Dylan Moran, very, very good. And if you're in a black books frame of mind, then Spaced probably fits into that same kind of oeuvre as well. But she's probably seen that. So, Boston Legal is one I would pick out. So, David E. Kelly's legal shows are all over the map. You've got Ally McBeal, which is just batshit, and let's be honest, quite irritating. And then you have The Practice, which is the spin-off of that, which is quite dark and kind of grim. And then the spin-off from The Practice, which was Boston Legal, which is somewhere between the two. I mean it's not because it's not dark at all it's properly comedy it's utterly madcap James Spader and William Shatner Denny Green absolutely amazing I love that show it's so funny it's an absolute laugh riot so Boston Legal Californication David Duchovny and Natasha McElhone it's kind of he's like a writer with sex addiction it's quite explicit it's lots of nudity is that funny very booby but it's genuinely very funny you know my stars on David Duchovny I don't watch anything with David Duchovny unless it's X-Files you've got an MC Duchovny thing you mad woman X-Files or nothing.

58:14All I'd say is Californication. I mean, it's quite dramatic as well. Does it seem like a comedy? I think it's more funny than not. And again, short episodes. I just don't think it's an out-and-out comedy like our listener is. But anyway, carry on. Did I say Veep? You did not say Veep. Veep. Veep is on the top of mine. Sorry, I've carried on this. No, no, that's fine. You carry on. Now you're just listing things that are almost vaguely comedies. Californication. Hey! And next? Next is Catastrophe. Yeah? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah? Can it have to be genuinely funny, Sharon Horgan? I feel like yours are not pure comedy.

58:50Do you think that? Catastrophe's a comedy. Catastrophe's a comedy. It's a nightcom. Yeah, no, it's fine. Californication, also a comedy. But anyway, my next one is obscure. But she said, so she's new to the podcast, which means I don't think she'd have heard of this. If she had listened to the podcast regularly, she would already be all over this. Colin from Accounts. Because I don't think many people know about Colin from Accounts, but we bang on about it endlessly. Which is insane. Because it's phenomenal. It's feel good. It has a cute dog in it. It's genuinely hilarious. That should be number one, I would say, on your list of things to watch as you go to bed.

59:22Colin from Accounts. Maybe, yeah. My next one, a little bit throwback. Not friends, but coupling. The British friends. No. Goes off the rail. When Richard Coyle leaves, it falls off a cliff. But, genuinely funny, Jack Davenport, everyone. Stephen Moffat's coupling. No. It's a giggle. No? You're a hater. No, I support that choice. Okay, fine. Do you not find it funny? No, I don't find that funny. You didn't like Jack Davenport. you know when he does these big old rants yeah yeah I don't find that funny doesn't like coupling okay fine next one extraordinary on Disney Plus since cancelled got I want to say two seasons two yeah really really funny it's a world where everyone has superpowers except for one girl who doesn't and it's I mean it's filthy and it's hilarious and it's sweary and it's loads and loads of fun okay no no we're on the E's we're the E's it's alphabetical we're going into F now so okay feel good obviously the next one Mae Martin's show makes you feel good and it's funny great show also has dramatic also has dramatic a lot of yours aren't I'm looking for out and out pure fun but I would I would qualify that by saying that and certainly from my perspective comedy in isolation isn't funny I think comedy juxtaposed with drama it enhances comedy you're thinking of yourself but you're just thinking of yourself we're addressing what the listener wants I'm thinking of Mel I'm thinking of Mel no you're not because Mel likes here we go stick to what we know she likes I'm broadening Nails Horizons and here we go it's not a show that needs any drama or takes itself seriously in that way any carry on she's talking like she would like Commanderland and Motherland and all those anyway carry on we've probably got like 16 to go we're only on F at the moment the next one and I'm not even sure this is purely a comedy but just you remember the Flat Share on Paramount Plus yes yes I really like the Flat Share no it's absolutely not okay no not the Flat Share it's a good show but it's just not an out and out you know fun laugh fun filled comedy okay fine okay well my next one is one I think she definitely won't have seen which is Go On which was a Matthew Perry sitcom from 2012 and it's basically it's like a grief support group but it's really funny that was adapted from a British show yeah it's good it's good I mean yeah but again grief support group I mean really is that like what you want to keep you amused when you're going to bed okay fine I think it's good right next and you'll be on side with this one Rufus Jones' Home which is genius no I endorse that and it involves full frontal nudity and yucca plants yeah it's very funny it's brilliant yeah okay I mean don't watch it just for that it's genuinely very funny Yusuf Kirchhoz and it is fabulous right keep going really love that we're getting close we're getting close this is one for you Boydy just at normal yes funny dramatic yep are you allowing it I am allowing it but it's not why I would choose for this particular question fine whatever because you're not focusing on what's actually the point of the question alright let me press on we're in the home stretch right okay next next I've got misfits if you want to go back for a bit of soup in the same vein oh my god James, do you know what?

1:02:09I think we might have to cut you off. How is Misfits not a comedy? That is not a comedy. I thought it was funny. Right, do you know what? That's a comedy. It was a 45-minute, hour-long, like, sci-fi comedy drama. It's not comedy. And even then more dramatic than comedy. Of course it's got funny bits, but you're just now randomly naming any show that's got anything vaguely comedic in it. Okay, okay. Sorry, Mel. We've disqualified Misfits. I'm so sorry, Mel. I didn't know we were going to get heckled so badly here. Again, we've really fucked this up. All right, next one. Not obscure. in any way but still love it had to mention it sex education on Netflix which is wonderful and it's a comedy I mean even then though oh my god Mel has watched sex education as well she probably has she probably has but it's also as much you know it's as much of a drama as anything it's constantly tucking the issues she wants her out and out flat out fun comedy you know you're getting like a D minus for the same way okay next I've got sports night Aaron Sorkin sports night precursor to the west wing oh actually they kind of overlapped but that is his sitcom about like a sports news channel it's a sitcom that is a sitcom Even part of it has a laugh track, so it's definitely a comedy.

1:03:10That is a sitcom. Right. Finally, at last. Thank you. I've got two more. Okay. We Are Lady Parts. Yeah, I'll allow that. Which is fantastic. Muslim rock band, genius show. Oh, I don't know that. Love it. You don't know it? No. Oh, it's pretty good. Okay. Need a Mansoor's show. It's fantastic. And the last one I was going to say. Thank God. Hopefully it adheres to the rules of the question. It is. See, and this is difficult, because this is, well, this is the penultimate one. Let's say it's the penultimate one. Chris Gere, worst.

1:04:08I don't know that either. list to us yeah wow that is extraordinary Boyd I've just got a little handful of them which actually answer the question and in time for so John Norton who's a brilliant writer John Morton sorry who's a brilliant writer created People Like Us which were like years ago on BBC one of the funniest things ever but he did 2012 about the the committee working on the Olympics and he did W1A which then took the same character played by Hugh Bonneville about the inner workings of the BBC. This year there will be 2026 about the workings of the World Cup but those shows, W1A and 21A and 2012 are flat out fucking hilarious from start to finish and they are not interested in being dramatic or important.

1:04:56They've got hilarious narration from David Tennant and they're just bliss and you can watch them again and again and again because there's so many gags, gag after gag after gag. That you miss the gags. That you miss the gags and it's, so those, I would recommend both of those. Black Ops oh that's a good choice that's a good choice that is absolutely silly celebrates the silliness of comedy and you know influenced by Airplane and Naked Gun and that kind of thing and Black Ops has brilliant visual gags slapstick stupid a lot of these shows rest on having stupid people at the core of them and this certainly does that in a brilliantly hilarious way so I recommend that The Comeback Lisa Kudrow oh The Comeback which I think you should catch up with two seasons two amazingly brilliant seasons constantly funny from start to finish and the new season will be along hopefully in March when HBO Max launches.

1:05:45And that's one of their shining lights. And Michael Patrick King, who I interviewed for the last season of And Just Like That, the controversial hate watch that was And Just Like That, was saying how important it is to him that the comeback is flat out fucking hilarious. So it will reflect what's going on in the world today because they're using AI, there's jokes about AI, but the comeback, the two seasons we've had are just hilarious and start to finish. So yeah, those are the ones I am listening. Yeah, I'm going to give you an A star if they even do that. So Boydie was the targeted sniper rifle and mine was more of the kind of buckshot shotgun scatter.

1:06:21Yeah, you just flailing, flailing down scattergun approach. Look, I believe in giving Mel value for money. She has subscribed to Pilot Plus. She has given up£3.49 and so I gave her£3.49 worth of recommendations. I think it's rare that we spend this much time I'm going to listen to the question. And I'm in favour of it, by the way. I'm in favour of it too. But it's partly because James just had a list of every comedy he'd ever thought of. It was indulgent. It was indulgent. Wow. I think you'll find it was a public service. Okay, well, now. If you would like your own public service, do send in your questions, musings, thoughts, and indeed criticisms of Boyd to pilottv at empiremagazine.com via the wonder of email.

1:06:57Let's move on to the major news headlines this week. And there is a big story which I was not able to cover last week because it broke after we recorded. Now, we record now on a Wednesday. Sorry. Steph's fault. I knew you were going to say that. We don't go out to a Monday, so we're not the most topical when it comes to news. But that gives us time to reflect, I think. Don't cause a backlash against me because people want the news. Come for Steph, come for Steph. Right, so I wasn't able to talk about this, so I mentioned it on the Empire podcast because I couldn't help myself. I don't know what you're talking about.

1:07:24Right. They cast Kratos in God of War, and this is incredibly exciting. So Kratos, brilliant PlayStation game. It's now available on other platforms. but absolutely love it and then Kratos the God of War who was voiced by the brilliant Christopher Judge who played Teal 'c on Stargate it's G1 there's a TV show it's being adapted from the games the sort of latter games so God of War, God of War 2 the kind of Norse rather than the Greek mythology ones and who was going to be Kratos has been a big source of you know fan speculation who is it? Jesus! he's building up to it are you saying I'm burying the lead slightly?

1:07:59no no no he's trying to build I understand that You built to the revelation. Or I was just rambling and going on. To be fair, it better be someone impressive. If it's someone we've never heard of now, it's going to be just shit. Okay, I'm giving you background. It's not going to be anyone you've heard of. I'm giving you background. So the whole preamble is completely fucking pointless. A little bit, but what I'm saying is Chris Judge, who voiced him just brilliantly in those games, wanted the role, and he would have been a brilliant Kratos. They haven't cast him. Instead, they have cast Ryan Hurst, who played Opie in Sons of Anarchy and played Beta in Walking Dead.

1:08:32But crucially, who voiced Thor in the same game, in God of War. He is going to be playing Kratos in the Ron DeMoor TV series. Teresa Palmer has also signed on to become, to be the god Sif. Teresa Palmer? Wasn't she the victim in Twin Peaks? No, that's Laura Palmer. Oh, okay. That would be quite a turn-up. Teresa Palmer was in, among other things, Mixtape. Like, she's... Oh, okay. Yes, right, Australian actress. But, yeah, really, really excited about this. Love the games, love the character. I kind of wish Chris Judge had been cast as Kratos, I've got to be honest. But if it's not going to be Judge, Ryan Hurst is a great choice and he gives good beard, which is important.

1:09:08I mean, that was a brilliant build-up to an absolutely bathos of the highest order. Wow. You seem unimpressed, it has to be said. I mean, I've just never heard of the person. Sorry, what's their name? Say it again. Ryan Hurst. Ryan Hurst. I'm going to look him up. Not Ryan Reynolds. He's very tall. Oh, really good, really good beard. Yes, there you go. Thank you. he gives good Kratos so that's quite exciting I'm very much here for this I know I'm going to regret asking this question but I'm going to ask it anyway what is your favourite I don't even know if I should I'm going to do it what is your favourite computer game adaption into a TV show The Last of Us The Last of Us so that was nice and quick and to the point everyone knows that is that your okay what's your second favourite then I mean there haven't been many good ones to be fair so I don't think anything comes close to The Last of Us I'm very interested in the Elden Ring adaptation, which Alex Garland is currently doing.

1:10:01But that is a film, so we really can't get into that. Okay. All right. I didn't regret asking that question. What about the one on Prime Video? You know, the one we reviewed a few weeks ago. The big budget one. Oh, Fallout. Fallout, yeah. But then, as we discussed on that, Fallout, which is a big hit, I don't love. I don't dislike it at all. But I have not really watched any of season two at this point, and that kind of speaks volumes. Okay. In other casting news, people you will have heard of are going to be in season three of Sherwood now I loved seasons one and two of Sherwood absolutely brilliant show one of the best shows for years and years and this is the will be the final season and joining the cast are the likes of Rosalie Craig who was brilliant in the Sally Wainwright show who I've forgotten the title of Riot Women yes right she was brilliant in that Joe Dempsey who's always brilliant Game of Thrones skins etc always good Kirby Hale Baptiste Sue Johnston from the Royal Family, Peter White, all these people joined Sherwood, and the returning cast include Lorraine Ashbourne, the great Lorraine Ashbourne, who can do no wrong, Lindsay Duncan, Robert Glenister, Robert Lindsay, Leslie Manville, David Morrissey, and Claire Rushbrook.

1:11:10It's just a brilliant cast. That's fair. And the new season, the third season, introduces a new family. The Wood family is the picture of working class respectability, pillars of the community, volunteers at the local church, blah, blah, blah. But then, obviously, there's a dark side to them, and they get embroiled in the crime and darkness of the locale. Which is Nottingham. Which is Nottingham. Right. Understandable. There we go. Okay, I'm just going to say, and this kind of ties into our beloved Mel, and now I'm calling Beloved Mel, right? so Kayleigh Cuoco who we love and you will love because you also love Big Bang Theory no I don't what?

1:11:47no I don't you don't love Big Bang Theory I don't I have a complicated relationship with the Big Bang Theory because I do feel it is an absolute hate watch there is something about the Big Bang Theory which is hateable but I did used to enjoy it when it first started oh god so many different emotions but yeah I have complicated feelings towards that show okay well Kayleigh Cuoco comedy that she did which someone said was a spectacular waste of time you can now watch for free on YouTube. It is called Authors Anonymous. So I haven't watched that, Mel, but that might be a comedy that you want to watch.

1:12:23Are you going back to the listener question? Yeah, sorry, I was just out of my news. We've moved on, Steph. We're in the news section. We spent about an hour on it. I'm just saying, you know, as a piece of news, Mel, you know, I'm now... Mel's taken over the podcast. She has. Well, she'll be happy. I'm going to share something else with you. Go on. did you see the picture? We talked about Sophie Turner on Pilot Plus when we reviewed Steel, but there was a picture of Sophie Turner in costume as Lara Croft in the new Tomb Raider. I know, I thought of you. Phoebe Waller-Bridge's Tomb Raider. You were unhappy.

1:12:55I'm not... I feel like the short shorts and tight top thing feels a bit regressive. It feels like this was Lara Croft when she first came out in the 90s. And, you know... What would you have aware of? Yeah, I don't... I don't know, something more practical from exploring an archaeology? But that is practical. Is it? Oh, I think so. Short shorts and a tank top? I don't know. Something more pockets, I'm saying. I don't think that that image is like overtly sexy or anything. Do you know what I mean? No, to be fair, I don't think they have sexualized it overtly at all. I think it's just, it's so close to when she first came out.

1:13:27And that was a, let's be honest, Lara Croft, it was very pervy when the first Toon Renek first came out. But also, I don't think it necessarily needs to be that close from a visual point of view. I'm perfectly happy to understand that this character wears other outfits. You know, it's fine. Okay, so what are you saying? She should be like in khakis? Yeah, I'm saying I should be practical. Some kind of technical vest with webbing, cameras and like devices and stuff. But she's got the belt. You know, a jumpsuit with killer is what I'm saying, Steph. A jumpsuit with killer. Yeah. No, I think she looks great.

1:13:59Okay, good. I'm glad we had this talk. Okay. This is exciting news. You know, Netflix is a joke festival. You know, they do this like comedy festival where they have massive stars taking part and they do stand-up specials and they do panels and they do this, that and the other. Well, one of the most exciting things about it is that there's going to be a special episode. Do you know the Rushmore podcast? You should do because it's been a huge influence on the Empire podcast because the Rushmore podcast is where the hosts, Ari Emanuel and Ben Persky, very excited. How about this for dream podcast episode for me?

1:14:36On a special episode, they're going to debate with Larry David and Jerry Seinfeld together, making the case for which episodes of Seinfeld deserve a spot on Mount Rushmore. Okay, that's going to be a great episode. Jesus fucking Christ. Yeah, that's like your heaven. That is my heaven, yeah. So, you know, I'm just beyond excited about that prospect. And the other thing I mentioned about Netflix earlier is, yeah, Netflix tops 325 million subscribers now. Plans to boost content spending 10%. You know how much do they spend on content? $20 billion they'll be spending on content. So if you think the era of, you know, too much TV or whatever is over, I mean, it certainly isn't.

1:15:15Obviously, thankfully, because of this podcast, we need to carry on, and it is carrying on. But yeah, how incredible is that? 325 million subscribers. Their revenue's up. And basically, you know, they're trying to take over at the moment Warner Brothers, et cetera, which looks like they will. I mean, they're just taking over the world, basically. God, do you remember the days when Netflix was tiny? Just a tiny little thing. Yes, when they came into this office, when Ted Sarandos literally came to the Empire office to try and sell us on the concert from Netflix, we were like, eh, I'll never take off.

1:15:46Oh, God. And you're still here. You lot are still here and he's... He's done well for himself. He's done good. Yeah. Oh, dear. Right, okay, fine. Did you watch the trailer for How to Get to Heaven from Belfast? Not only have I watched the trailer of How to Get to Heaven. You've watched the show. I might have done. And I can't talk about it. This is Lisa McGee who did Derry Garza's her new show. Yes. New sitcom and it's about three friends who reunite after the death of an old classmate and it goes from like a wake into a kind of a dark mystery I very much enjoyed the trailer I don't know where this is going but it looks a knocky yeah the trailer is excellent we didn't mention Derry Girls that's a comedy that she definitely should watch yes we did mention Derry Girls not obscure not obscure at all it's massive no but I mean you either no you either love it or you're dead inside that's ultimately the choice oh yeah that's fair but yeah this is exciting alright But Boydie, you can't talk about it because you've seen it.

1:16:37Yes, maybe. Maybe. I mean, he's literally already out yet. I think it's one of those ones where you're not even allowed to say you've seen it. Oh, I see. No, just get rid of that. What are they going to do? It'll be fine. Okay. There you go. Should I give you my variety whack headline of the week? Oh, yes, please. Here we go. Woody Harrelson got, quote, so pissed at Matthew McConaughey whilst filming True Detective because he went method, colon, quote, I wanted to punch the motherfucker in the face. Wow. End quote. How good is that? And this is from an interview with Woody Harrelson and Matthew McConaughey on Ted Danson's podcast.

1:17:15Do you know Ted Danson's podcast? It's another really good podcast. I didn't know Ted Danson's podcast. He has great people on it. It's called Where Everybody Knows Your Name. And they talk about filming the first and best. Well, the last season of True Detective with our friend of the pod, Jodie Foster, was amazing. It was amazing. But yeah, how good is that? I need to listen to this podcast episode where they talk to each other. Yeah, they both got really... But they're really close friends. Because basically, McConaughey's all method. McConaughey literally wouldn't go out of character. Woody Harrelson doesn't give a fucking shit.

1:17:39He's used to playing Woody Boyd in Cheers. So the clash of styles, I think, is really fun, really entertaining. I just re-watched the Between Two Ferns with Matthew McConaughey and Zach Galifianakis, where he teases him about how much marijuana he smokes, and it's hilarious. Woody Harrelson or Matthew McConaughey? Sorry, Matthew McConaughey. Did I say Woody Harrelson? No, you said Matthew McConaughey. But Woody Harrelson's famous for smoking in vast quantities. Yeah, and they're massive. They're like really good friends, aren't they? So they're doing together both. And didn't they weirdly find out they were related on that show?

1:18:07There's something strange about that. But Woody Harston is a fascinating character. His dad was a hitman. Have you listened to his podcast? It's amazing. No. Oh, you should. Okay, there you go. Your time's going to be taken up. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Do we have any other news? I'm sure there are a couple of things. I'm sure, so this came out as a news story this week, but I'm sure we knew it already. Did you know that Peter Hoare is doing this? Blake 7 reboot. We did know this, didn't we? I think I knew there was a Blake 7, was a Blake 7 reboot on the cast, but I don't think it'd be confirmed. But yeah, Peter Hall instant-grammed about it, didn't he?

1:18:43Yeah. Right. I am absolutely thrilled about this, yeah, because I love Blake 7, the original. And it's insane that it hasn't been brought back until now. Yeah, it's very exciting. And Peter Hall is a brilliant director, obviously, worked on It's a Sin, worked on Your Favourite, The Lost of Us, Best Episode. And we've had him on this podcast, haven't we? I'm sure we have. I think so, yes. I think so, yes. I could be imagining it, but I'm sure we've had him on this podcast at some point. I mean, he pretty much directs most of Russell C. Davis' shows now. He's so good, yeah. He's directed Dog 2 episodes and stuff, yeah.

1:19:14But brilliant and exciting, yeah. Yeah. Blake Sutton. James, where do you stand on Keenan and Kel? Keenan and Kel, as in Keegan-Michael Key. Keenan and Kel from the Good Burger films. I know this is... Oh, I don't know what's happening. Oh, my God, okay. Keenan and Kel. Kenan and Kel. You never watched any Kenan and Kel? No. Wow, okay. Right, so... I don't know what it is. They're coming back together. Tell us what it is. Okay, so Kenan and Kel are coming back together. Right, it is a film, but it's still interesting. It's still interesting news. For Kenan and Kel, meet Frankenstein. Are you looking up Kenan and Kel?

1:19:46I am, yeah. I've just Googled them. Yeah, so Kenan Thompson's on SNL. You watch SNL, right? No, I hate SNL, famously. What? I find it acutely unfunny. God, every moment that passes, I despise you more. You know he hates stuff. I mean, that list was so weird because he hates comedy and funny things anyway. That was a great list. But really, SNL you don't like? Yes, I find it embarrassing. I mean, SNL is incredibly variable in quality. It's often absolutely terrible. I did quite like their Harry Potter take on Heater Driver. That was funny. They did last weekend. Did you see that? No. They did a sketch of if Harry Potter was in a gay romance, you know, using...

1:20:25What's the game they play in Harry Potter? Quidditch. Quidditch. instead of ice hockey and blah, blah, blah, blah. It was really funny. As with all these things, it's one of these things that sounds good on paper, but I'm sure I would have found it just squirm-inducing had I seen it. Because Nick DeSemmion and Chris Hewitt are big SNL fans and they put on all of these little skits and I routinely hate them. There are one or two. Sorry, Nick... Editor of Empire. Yes. And Chris... I just assume people know who they are. They put on skits. I mean, they don't re-enact them, but they put on on YouTube.

1:20:51They show me little skits from SNL. It sounds like they did re-enact them.

1:20:58the John Hamm one where he's Sergio. But that genuinely made me laugh, which is kind of like that riff on Drag Me To Help. But, yeah. You are really missing some belly laughs in not watching SNL. Yeah. Honestly, you, just get on your bike. Literally. Unbelievable. I'm excited about the British version coming soon, of course, of SNL. I had not heard this. Where have I been? Yeah. A British version. Sky's doing a British SNL live. Yeah, absolutely. I don't have a feeling about that. Incredible. Who's going to be part of that cast? Well, they haven't announced the cast yet, but it will be a mix of, you know, famouses and not so famouses, up-and-coming comedians and stuff.

1:21:33And it will just follow the format. There'll be a guest host, you know, celebrity guest host. And what is Lorne Michaels involved in that? He's involved. He's heavily involved. I can thank God. I happen to know, because I know one of the producers. He's literally, like, talking to them properly about how to do it, how to make it work, etc. I think you might like that. Does he know? It's a brilliant, and it's steady. It's a brilliant, but if it happens in the end, and, you know, it will be variable of quality. Remember, the American version is an hour and a half. each week of sketches, right? I mean, that's a fucking lot, plus musical...

1:22:02Musical guests. But there's a lot of content in that show. So, you know, it's a huge, ambitious move. And it's been tried, you know, and it failed. There's been various similar shows, but they're going out and out. And I think it's brilliant that Sky is actually just trying to do it because it gives huge opportunities to, let's say, up-and-coming comedians and talent and stuff. So I didn't know we were going down the street. Why are we even going down the street? It's very hard to say. It's very exciting. It's because I was talking about Keenan and Kel. I still don't know who Keenan and Kel are.

1:22:31Keenan, Thompson and Kel Mitchell had a show. They were like a duo back in the 90s, Keenan and Kel. In the 90s? Yeah, okay. And so they had a load of films, like Good Burger films they were. They were delivery drivers. Do you remember Keenan and Kel? I feel like I need to show you a picture of them. No, no, I remember the Good Burger stuff. But they've got a new project, and it's going to be Shaun of the Dead meets Scooby-Doo. Just saying. It's exciting. I love Keenan and Kel, so I'm excited. but if that wasn't your era of television, it was mine, then you probably don't care. But I care. And so I'm mentioning it.

1:23:00Okay, Steph. That's good. I care that you care. Oh my God. Wow. Patronising level. I know. That is extreme. I'm calling a lid on news. We're done. Yeah. Okay. We should have more guests because we have more guests. Under Salt Marsh is a new crime thriller miniseries on Sky and it stars Kerrily Riley as a former cop-turned-teacher who discovers the body of one of her pupils was an eight-year-old boy in a local marsh only for her former partner played by Rafe Spall with whom she did not part on good terms to return leading the police investigation. Now, Boydie, rustling away as he is with his magazine there, you once again stepped up to the plate here, didn't you?

1:23:39And spoke to both Rafe and Kelly. I mean, many ways a hero. You are. Were they fine? They were absolute delight. Yes. Good. 100%. I know Rafe a bit anyway. Do you? Of course you do. Did you go, Boyd. Pretty much. Okay. Well, good. Well, you can listen to Boydee chatting with Rafe Spall and Kelly Riley. Rafe and Kelly, welcome to the Pilot TV podcast. How are you doing? I'm pretty good, actually. We're good, yeah. Thank you. You've been paired up for this day of press. Now, obviously, to me, that indicates you get on, that you've become, you know, friends. It's such a relief to actually be doing press with someone that you...

1:24:12God, that sounds awful. That sounds like you hate all of your postcards. Anybody else I've done press, which is not true, but Rafe and I are very, very, very old friends. Yes. And since we were teenagers, pretty much. Well, he was a teenager. I'm older than Rafe. So there's a tremendous amount. He's so generous and so warm and so kind and funny. It just makes this... I feel like we're not faking anything. It just makes it enjoyable. You're having real conversations. Yeah, it's lovely. It's nice. One of the things I was excited about today was seeing Kelly again because we get on so well and we had such a good time doing the show.

1:24:45Even though it's a very serious subject matter, It was nice to, you know, sit about and have a chat. It's always a bit of the way that kind of the more sort of difficult the subject matter is or serious or emotionally kind of difficult. Offset is a little bit more fun. I was going to ask that. Everyone's looking for a bit of the light reprieve and we're both looking like drowned rats and freezing cold. Like we're sharing a little tent and a bag of chips together. It just bonds you and makes, and I like that realness of it. Yeah, yeah. I was going to ask about that because, yeah, the whole, right from the beginning the tone of um this show is intense right it's very like heightened you're both quite you know you have a lot of stuff going on traumas in your past but so when but when the cameras are off you manage to have fun and you manage to kind of like do you have to do it that way in a way i think it comes pretty naturally we're both a bit like that we don't really stay in character yeah yeah i think that to me the way i found after 25 years of doing this is of delivering good work is to actually be as relaxed as you can if you're trying to stay also i think each did her own you know method acting or whatever what's whatever gets you through but my feeling is if i'm in a scene with you and you're there doing emotional recall thinking about your dear departed nan you're in the scene with yourself you're not in the scene with me you know and that's what i loved about acting with kelly love about him kelly is that it just feels open and alive and organic in action you know it's not it doesn't feel contrived it feels very loose and fun so in order to get that it's good to have a laugh and bond and chat my favorite thing about acting is sat around on slightly rickety chairs in an easy up um tarpauling in the rain telling stories yeah tell more stories of telling more stories and and the thing is i There's this misconception about actors that we sit around self-aggrandising.

1:26:38Actors bond through their shared failures. Horror stories. Horror stories. So we sit there. We don't talk about our glories. We sit about terrible humiliations that we've had. Yeah. And maybe that's a very English actor thing. I think it probably is. It definitely is. We sit there and we go, oh, my God, I had this audition once. I made a dreadful tit of myself. Yeah. So you don't feel alone. Exactly. Exactly. And we recite our bad reviews to each other. But as you can tell, Rafe is very funny. So, like, you can't not have a laugh with them. I mean, there is definitely scenes where we're sort of having a bit of a difficult time and I can't look at him.

1:27:11But he also knows how to lock in. And that's the difference. You've got to be able to know when to concentrate and when you can. But, yeah, it was, I couldn't think of anybody I'd rather be doing this with. Remember that scene when I had to open a door and you were behind it and we couldn't stop laughing then? That was on the last day. Do you remember? Yeah, yeah. We were on the houseboat thing. Oh, yeah. And you're like creeping about. And it was just a thing. I think we thought we were in a comedy that moment. And we both upped it. We did. And we were both told to tone it down. All right, stop now.

1:27:42Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's frankly inappropriate to kind of corpse in the middle of a very serious. Yeah, well, I think you had to sit on your funny bone in this. But it kind of comes through because it's that sort of humanity. You know, that warmth, humour, that sort of broken humour, that sort of dry. Like, it's such a beautiful thing to have a quality in their character. So that's, yeah, that was really lovely. I don't know what particularly drew you to, well, I mean, it's obviously great writing, it's a really interesting story, but I was fascinated by the fact it's rare to have a man and a woman lead male female characters who are not in any way going to engage with each other sexually.

1:28:19And there's no will they, won't they, it's just from the start, they're just ex-colleagues who kind of have this history. That's interesting, isn't it? Very much so. yeah very much so and we've talked about that a lot today actually that that that element is taken out so it frees us to to really find this sort of weirder intimacy um that is almost like siblings that's sort of how i felt but they just know each other they've been through stuff together um but there is there's a there's almost an element of real care for one another despite the the the broken fractured part of their relationship and then by the end like i know I can't give anything away but there is just such a knowledge and a knowing of each other and and that I'm all right in the world if you're there you know and I really felt that Jackie had that with him and even though he's going to go off and they're parting ways again that this being healed between us now I can I can go out in the world again and I'm going to be all right knowing that you're in the world absolutely I think it gives space for a sort of deeper level of relationship doesn't it is if you've got two people that have you know that um have the same sexuality in this case um you know say if they were two straight people who were single say if you remove that frisson that idea of like possible if you take that away and you look at someone else and go right that's not there you're not trying to impress me i'm not impressed by any of it all that whatever you get to the essence of someone that's right and the understanding of someone when that big elephant in the room is removed that gives birth to a sort of deeper level as kelly said deeper level of intimacy not to say we couldn't have had that chemistry i'm not i mean we actually played husband and wife we did play husband and wife um yeah yeah yeah so called he kills coppers which is based on a jake arnold yeah yeah so it's kind of it is lovely you know to meet each other in different times in your life because almost like every decade we've worked together and with these different aspects of character that are not Rafe and Kelly but these so it's quite fabulous to see to see those on side by side I really want to watch He Kills Coppies again yeah me too yeah that would be interesting wouldn't it it was really good yeah it was great I loved the book it was a classic Jay Karnot and he bought Jay Karnot's flat once anyway we digress I digress I'm not about that but did you having worked together before like going back to when you were really young and have that bond did you stay interested in each other's careers did you watch Yellowstone for example definitely man I've been so like I said this earlier but so you know because i knew known kelly forever and um for her to go off and become a massive star on american television i have an enormous amount of pride and admiration and like i've always been like oh yeah i know kelly yeah kelly's my friend just checking the work as well just going oh they're still at it they were still doing it we're still having like you know being able to watch and see people's faces get older that you love as well like i love that yeah i love that me too there's such a tenderness about it and because we were so young when we started there is that there is that um it's not just about respect and liking each other's work it is just like i really love hanging out with rafe and his partner and his baby and it's just like you know part there is certain people that become you know family and it doesn't mean that you have to see each other all the time but there is that element and we're really lucky that we were able to then lend that knowledge or that ease with each other that comfortability to be fuck off you know i mean like just how they speak to each other like you said they don't you're not trying to impress yeah they're constantly swearing at each other actually there's rarely rarely is there a sentence they're not shouting each other saying fuck you fuck this yeah but we have this you know we're of the same generation of actors which means that we have similar sensibilities you know each generation will have a different sensibility we're from a generation of actor who when we left um well we both didn't go drama school but when we when we became professional actors our dreams and aspirations were to work in the subsidised theatre sector were to work at the national theatre to work at the royal court that was what we that was a be all and end all for us our heroes are like gary oldman yeah exactly you know like if you ask like michael fassbender or tom hardy like all that's our generation he's our hero like work really hard be like fearless um and show up and it's not about you and but also we we when we first started it wasn't like you could leave drama school and then go and get on yellowstone that wasn't a thing that existed right no that is a thing now now you can now you can leave drama school and go and be on some huge netflix show that's going to go international the industry wasn't really just then international in the same way it is it is now it was beginning to happen but it wasn't like you it was like a So if you look at our generation of people like Fassbender and Ruth Wilson, say, Andrew Riseborough and Andrew Scott and Eddie Redmayne and Cumberbatch.

1:33:18These are people that have been put in the hour. There's not an overnight success. I'm kind of proud of this generation. Me too. It's really nice to be part of it, actually. There's not an overnight success in any of them. We all grew up together. We were all exactly. There's no golden tickets for anyone. And also the stuff they choose to do is often is like this show, I think, very kind of it feels like making big statements. It's got lots of interesting themes, serious work, proper cinematic TV as itself. They've all been in different shows. Most of those actors you mentioned, as you have. So it does feel like that also helps as well.

1:33:50The people are making this kind of epic, ambitious show that attracts top level actors. It does help. The landscape is really good. you know and the thing is there is so much stuff out there yeah competition there's a lot of jostling for attention uh and i think that the cream rises to the top hopefully there's something quiet about this though i don't like you but i i've watched a lot of tv and i love it and it's always trying to grab my attention all the time like where i can't even hear myself think and that's fine for certain things but this had a quietness and a thoughtfulness that felt quite scandy quite you know art house film it felt very sort of modest and then the internal was huge it's a slow burn yeah and it starts off you're getting used to the characters and then that gets it gets more and more it kind of gets more and more intense and spectacular it feels like 90s it feels yeah so the the the the the palette of it just felt up my street like very wet though i mean i've only got up to episode five i've got one more to go and i think episode six is even the storms obviously but you're ready you're getting up you're in a lot of rain the storm comes insane how painful is it to be that wet for quite a long period of time we're very hardcore as I said we're from a certain generation you can deal with the challenge we laugh in the face of it we don't care we like it we prefer it yeah for being drenched if possible I'm 10 % better at acting when I'm soaked okay I've seen that no look it was obviously when you were signing up for we were filming throughout winter in North Wales about a storm does it get a bit Are there days where you're like, I'm a bit of a grumpy bitch because I'm so wet and cold?

1:35:30Maybe he'll give me a chip. Like, I'll be fine. Lots of wetsuits, lots of hot water bottles, lots of blankets, and then a lot of just giving over to it. And just sort of allowing, for me, it was the wind machines that were the hardest because they're so loud and they sound like a jet engine. And you're trying to do a scene and you're cold and tired and you're now having to scream to be heard. And then, you know, you're going to have to ADR it. they were the hard ones for me but also but also kelly was had to go down in this ditch when it was minus 10 degrees yeah pull a dummy out of a freezing cold thing yeah it's really heavy she didn't moan at all she was so game it was unbelievable honestly one of the most impressive things i've seen so i then couldn't be a big gold blouse and start moaning about things after that could i that's true it's true though that's your job though isn't it you know but i'm not gonna go well kelly didn't moan i'm not gonna start moaning i did get ill after that though oh you did yeah I've got a bit.

1:36:19I have to ask you particularly about one of my favourite shows of last year which was amazing in Smoke. It was an absolutely bonkers show. Yes. I haven't seen it. Oh, you've got to see it, Ray. Really? You're fantastic in it. Yeah, you are. Thanks very much. And the whole show is brilliantly insane. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Well, they're going to, I think they're maybe going to do more of them. Oh, I have so. Obviously, I'm long gone. I'm dead. Old Journey to my eye kills me, doesn't she? Prequel. That's true. There we go. Yeah. Thank you so much Thanks for joining me. It's been brilliant.

1:36:44It's a pleasure. Thank you always. Thank you so much. That was Ralph Spall and Kelly Riley, and we move on now to this week's reviews. And first up this week, we have Wonder Man on Disney+. This is the latest MCU show, and I would like to say, a decidedly different take on the superhero genre. And this is Yahya Abdul-Mateen II as Simon Williams, an actor desperate to land his dream role as the titular Wonder Man. The only problem being that he has superpowers. And that would disqualify him from working in Hollywood. So he seeks guidance from a knowledgeable, experienced thespian, specifically Ben Kingsley's Trevor Slattery, who you will remember from Iron Man 3 and Shang-Chi.

1:37:22However, if you don't, then that doesn't matter. Why, you ask? Because this is a Marvel spotlight show. If you recall Echo, and I'm sure you don't, when that came out, they coined this Marvel spotlight banner. And what this essentially means is this show will, A, have absolutely no bearing on any of the Marvel movies going forward, and B, you don't need to have seen any Marvel movies to watch it or understand it. So it's kind of like a standalone thing, if you will. Though I'm not sure it's 100 % true as I kind of think it helps a lot if you've seen Iron Man 3 to watch the show and it helps a little bit more if you've seen Shang-Chi.

1:37:56But, you know, anyway. This was created by Shang-Chi's director, Destin Daniel Cretton, alongside veteran comedy writer Andrew Guest who works on 30 Rock, Community, Brooklyn Nine-Nine. Boydie, is this a super-powered Barry? is it a less problematic entourage or is it a pale imitation of the studio? It's a bit of all of those things. It's also a bit of the franchise, remember? Which is the superhero specific one, yes. Indeed. Very close relation to that show, which I really liked and was sadly cancelled after one season because it didn't really catch on particularly. I thought it was really funny.

1:38:28But you liked it. Richard E. Grant, did you watch it? No. I mean, that's another one. That could be in the list of questions because that was an out-and-out funny show. Okay. Back to you, Mel. Very entertaining. Back to you, Mel. Well, yeah, try out the franchise. It must be on Sky, now on Sky, you know, pay as you go, whatever it's called. But anyway. Skygo. Skygo, thank you. Or, yeah, exactly. Or On Demand, Sky On Demand. Is it? Yeah, I think so. Is the app just called Skygo? It doesn't matter. Back to the point. Back to the point. Back to the point. I really like this. I thought it was an absolute breath of fresh air, and I think it's such a relief.

1:39:04And I know what you mean. I mean, I have seen Iron Man 2. I have seen Shang-Chi and all that. Iron Man 3. Three, sorry. The Shane Black one. Three, indeed. And so I know the background and stuff, but it really doesn't matter. I think you just get different things from it, knowing those films, than you would if you come to it just afresh. Because it's a very funny, entertaining, very well done take on the superhero takeover of our culture, and just the way Hollywood works. And, you know, in terms of auditioning, there's funny auditioning scenes there's the fact that Ben Kingsley's character is this kind of old school theatrical kind of figure who thinks he knows everything about the business and imparts his wisdom down to Yahya Abdul-Mateen's character and that relationship I found really believable and authentic and funny at the same time and everything that poor Yahya Abdul-Mateen's character goes through and interesting in the first episode I watched the first two this is the show you obviously watched all eight episodes I did in fact watch all eight episodes to what you were referring I would happily have carried on watching it but I just didn't have time but the unprofessional the superpower element doesn't barely even arrive touches it in the first two if I watched it in the first episode it's very much it's almost like you could dispense with it really I mean I'm sure as it goes on there'll be more importance to his superpowers but the key being that the characters are interesting enough that you don't actually feel like you even need that because they're so interesting it's interesting enough to follow a young well he's not that young a wannabe actor an actor who's fairly down on his luck he's not having much luck when it comes to auditioning and that's established right from the start the way he's treated and the difference in treatment of A-listers and Z-listers and background artists and of directors and what the director is looking for there's a brilliantly eccentric kind of art house director character who they want to make this film that he wants to be cast in the Wonder Man film it's very self-referential it's very meta But even then, the mettoness and the self-referentiality, again, even if you don't, it doesn't necessarily, it's not the most important thing about the show.

1:41:17The show itself, he's a really interesting, fun character to be with, to hang out with, and to see him down on his luck and what he's going to try and do, and how far you need to go to make an impression in this world that he's in. I just thought it was really entertaining and funny and well-written and well-acted, and I think he's brilliant, Yaya Abdul-Mateen, And I think Ben Kingsley's best, I mean, apart from, what's the gangster film, you know, Sexy Beast, in which he's absolutely genius, his greatest role. He's incredible in that. But I really like him when he's doing comedy like this. Because he's kind of, he's really, he manages to...

1:41:51He's a talented comic actor. Yeah, you believe in him, but his timing and everything that is funny. And his kind of lack of self-awareness, he does brilliantly. And, you know, we're always, the thing about Sir Ben Kingsley is, you know, the idea that he wants to be called Sir, which I think was true at one point, briefly, but it's certainly not been true for years. And he's happy not to be cool. So I think he's a really good sport. The whole character, the whole set-up of this, it shows what a good sport he is, and I really enjoyed it. Yeah, I could not agree with him. I really enjoyed kind of this sort of element of quite passive comedy, but I had a few belly laughs.

1:42:23I watched the first two episodes. I think, yeah, Sir Ben Kingsley's character. At one time, this was a hugely successful actor, and then something happens which will be revealed. I won't spoil it. I mean, it's fine. People have seen Iron Man 3. He was the Mandarin. You'll never see him coming. What if they haven't? I don't know what that voice is, by the way. That's the Mandarin voice. It's spot on. Anyway, as this kind of... Unlike Ben Kingsley's Scouse accent, which wanders all around the Midlands at one point. Oh, yeah. Why is he Scouse? Yeah, that's true. Yeah, I do. Well, I like the fact that he's kind of like fumbling through the wreckage of a once-celebrated career in this.

1:42:56And he's got... I really enjoyed a particular scene where he goes back to his director's house and this house is absolutely, oh my God, it's sensational, this house. But he gets slightly angry. They have a little bit of an altercation with him. I really enjoyed that. But yeah, Yaya, I just, what? And you immediately attach to this character and his desire to not just succeed in the industry, but obviously, yes, there are these huge echoes of the studio, but not just to see, but to be the best. And he's really focused and he's got these ideas about what he wants to do and how he's going to be the best and you really are rooting for him from the beginning.

1:43:39And then there's that scene where he goes to the audition and he has to just sign a waiver. And again, I think this is in the trailer for it where he says, just sign here to say you've got no superpowers. And it's, yeah, magic. I really enjoyed it. I like the fact that the references in it are very, sometimes completely out there. Like, I don't know, there was a reference to Kafka at one point or something. It's very free with its references. Yeah, it's kind of like a, yeah, that's what I'm saying, I suppose, about like passive comedy in a way. It's not out there, it's just, there's a lot of laughs in it that you don't...

1:44:09Yeah, but what I mean, I think it's true to itself, like it feels like, because it's partly about, you know, films, to the extent to which films are made by committee and can you have, you know, this director is a maverick, kind of, the kind of director you would unleash on a Marvel film, taking a bold, a bold move to it. Von Kovac. Yeah. Yes. And I think part of the meta nature of the series is it's commentating, isn't it, on the idea that a superhero film can be artistically, creatively valid and be directed by someone, like Chloe Zhao doing whatever that Marvel film was. Eternals. Eternals.

1:44:43It's commenting on that whole phenomenon. But some of the references within that are quite out there and obscure and random and you can't necessarily, they're not necessarily what you might think it would be referring to in terms of the pop culture jokes that it has. and I loved all that. It's very freewheeling and unpredictable in terms of its take on pop culture, James. Please unleash your absolute love for this. I thought it was fine. I didn't love it. I thought, I thought, I did watch all of it, obviously, but I think it wants to be, it wants to be the studio, it wants to be Barry, it wants to be all of these things.

1:45:18I just don't think the script is sharp enough. It doesn't, like it's satire lands, but it's gentle satire. It doesn't have teeth and I feel like it just needed to be slightly bolder. I like the fact that meta as it is, it's not meta within Marvel, it's meta within the industry. Like they're talking about Ryan Murphy, they go to Joey Pantoliano's house, like Josh Gad is in it and what I would say is arguably the best episode of the season, which I want to say is episode four, The Doorman, which is all in black and white. That's really, really good. But generally the show is like, it's quite funny without being funny, funny.

1:45:49You know, it's satirical without being particularly observant or cutting. Like it's fine, it's good. For me, it was a quintessentially three-star show, but I really enjoyed it. I thought it was loads of fun. I was just a little disappointed because I thought it just needed to stretch a little bit further. It needed to be a little bit cleverer in its observations, a little bit funnier in its jokes, just to go that little bit further. All of that said, what I like about this most is that it is the least Marvel, Marvel thing you'll ever see. It is. It genuinely doesn't feel like it's even connected to Marvel at all.

1:46:21The super-powered aspect of it is such a small part of this story. You could take it out and it would largely be unchanged. Which is a good thing. Right, I agree completely. And I really liked that about it. And it does have that Barry-ish feel, which is the clashing of the inherent ridiculousness of acting in Hollywood with something larger than life. In that case, you know, contract killing. In this case, being super-powered. And you don't really need to care about the wider MCU in the slightest to enjoy that side of it. and I think it's a big swing for them and it is a very different thing and I actually quite like that they're aware of superhero fatigue they literally even reference it and they're trying to do something different which I think is good I just wish it was a little bit tighter a little bit clever you compare it to something like Barry Barry is so well written and so well observed brilliantly executed and also I think it doesn't help this show that it comes relatively hot on the heels of the studio which is so so so good in this area and does it so, so, so well.

1:47:20So, so, so. So, so, so well. So, so, so, so. Right. And I think really that's to this show's detriment because unfortunately it doesn't compare particularly favourably to that, which is a shame. Whereas, you know, had it come before that, I think you'd perhaps give it a little bit more, a little bit more room to breathe. But like I say, I watched all eight episodes, only half an hour each. You know, I had a good time with it, but I didn't have a great time with it. I'm surprised. I'm not, because it's a comedy, doesn't it? It's, you know, it's not really the judge, the man to judge. So as we've seen.

1:47:51I mean, you could argue that it not being funny, it's perfect for me. No, I really did. I really loved the character of Simon. I really, I thought, I really... Yes, so did I. I think he plays it brilliantly and I really like that. Because this is a character-led show. It is all character. It is not plot. And it is certainly not Marvel or superheroes or spectacle. It is all about this very small, very intimate character journey. And I will say the other thing is that Ben Kingsley, who played Travis Lattery brilliantly in Iron Man 3 because there was this big rug pull, the whole Mandarin reveal.

1:48:21It was a masterstroke. I really didn't enjoy him in Shang-Chi because I felt like the character then became, he was still a caricature, but he wasn't funny. And I'm like, you can have him as a caricature if he's hilarious, but you can't have him as a caricature if he's not funny. In this show, he is not a caricature. He actually feels more lived in. He feels like a genuine person. And I like that they evolve that character. And he's gently funny, but he is funny. But I think, I like that he feels like a proper rounded human in this, which I, yeah, I appreciate it though. I think you have to kind of almost, I mean, his effect, it doesn't compare to the studio, but I think you have to kind of go...

1:48:57It's not trying to, though, is it? No, it's trying to a bit. I don't know. It has a lot of the same, it's set in a similar world, particularly similar world to the franchise. And it's making similar observations, like when they call Ryan Murphy on the phone in the first episode, you know? Yeah, to some extent, but I think it's different tone is a good thing. I think it is different and it marks it out as being different. Well, it's not as, you know, chaotic and madcap and overtly comedic as the studio. No. Because this is gently funny. I would agree with that. In the same way that, but it's like Barry without the hard, like Barry has a dark edge to it.

1:49:30This doesn't really have a dark edge. Yeah, I like that. See, again, going back to the listener question, I like the fact this isn't trying to be dark or particularly deep and meaningful. Yeah, it's very... It's not massively dynamic. No. Right, yeah. But it has, like I said, that fourth episode, which is a real, It's one of those departure episodes where they just go off on a tangent. Really, really nice. Oh, I need to watch that, yeah. It's a good one. Yeah, because I've only watched two. Same, yeah. I'm hooked. I'm only one of the current ones. It's worth it. A short episode, whiz through it as I did in an evening.

1:49:56So, yeah. Wonder Man then, with debuts on the 28th, which is Wednesday. There you go. Yes. Disney Plus. Yes. Next up, we have The Beauty, also on Disney Plus, which as you already heard, is Ryan Murphy at his Ryan Murphyist. and it was created by Murphy and Matt Hodgson and has, I've got to be honest, one of the most outrageous cold opens I have ever seen in my life, set as it is to Prodigy's Firestarter, no less. Steph, beauty is, of course, in the eye of the beholder, but was this batshit concoction beautiful to you? Tell us. Batshit, batshit it was, yeah. I mean, when you sit down to watch this, you have to, you're immediately, it's a rollercoaster ride as you have alluded to from the beginning you sit down and it is no holds barred Bella Hadid which I believe this is her first ever acting in her first ever acting role where she acts as a model what she actually is in real life must have been a stress yeah obviously she's the face of this show as well and she's very good she's very good yeah it's it's fucking demented isn't it the first the first five minutes of this are, as you said, the most Ryan Murphy-esque I've ever seen.

1:51:13Like, the model goes off the runway, she starts assaulting people, she's in search of water. Am I allowed to say what happens to her? I won't say. Shall I not say? Let's just say, I mean, it takes a turn, doesn't it? It's absolutely wild. No, let's not say it. I'm no expert spoilers, but I will say it. It's, God, it's gruesome. It's like, it just hits you. It's like a massive slap in the face of what we expect from Ryan Murphy. The colours, the action, everything that's going on, you feel kind of sick. It is that kind of rollercoaster TV ride. And then you get introduced to these two detectives in it, who, you know, Evan Peters, I absolutely love, Rebecca Hall, also I love.

1:51:57And they've got a great backstory. But essentially, and I think we need to make the point that this book, book, the book of this was this is based on a book that came up before but it came up before The Substance because lots of people are and I think James has also said this is Substance the TV show but this was commissioned before Substance. They bought the rights before. So yeah, so Evan Peter's character Cooper Madison and Rebecca Hall's character Jordan Bennett are brought together as FBI agents and they are sent to various corners of the planet to uncover why there's been a spate of gruesome crime scenes and what the hell is going on.

1:52:37Again, I don't want to give too many spoilers, but it's essentially a kind of commentary on how we as a nation seem to be so obsessed with physical beauty, physical perfection, and the pursuit of it at all costs. Is that fair? Yeah. Yeah, okay. Personally, I loved it, But I did have to hide slightly behind my hands at points which were so, I mean, some of it felt very alien. Do you know what I mean? As in the film Alien.

1:53:17There's rebirths in it. There's a lot of fucking slime. It is a lot. If you were in any way squeamish, this is not the show for you. I personally, I loved it. I loved it thought it was great I do think this is the acceptable face of Ryan Murphy okay like we've had recently it's unapologetically Ryan Murphy well it's not even that that's important to me personally I think when he does you know recently he did the serial killer Strand shall we say yes the monster Strand I find that when he does those shows which he often executive produced he did the last one which made clear what was the most recent one Ed Gein Ed Gein Ed Gein Gungin he was just except producer he didn't direct or write any of her whereas he has directed and written quite a lot like the Menendez brothers and the Dharma one which was those ones I have difficulty with I mean and the All's Fair type stuff All's Fair was like famously terrible although I think it was exaggerated how bad it was with all the zero rating people decided it was an easy thing to trash people took against that because of Kim Kardashian let's be honest yeah totally what did the heat boardroom think of that one I mean they didn't necessarily I don't think anybody was thinking it was absolutely horrendous I think it was unfairly dismissed from the outset because Kim Kardashian was in it I think that's an element of it I agree yeah but this I think is when he's at his best and this reminds me of classic American horror story this could have been you know American horror story season and I think the reason why is because it's it's incredible interestingly I talked mostly most of the interviews that you will have heard in which I talked to the cast, Ashton Kutcher, etc.

1:55:02I mainly, because I'm fascinated by Ryan Murphy. I think he's, he's so prolific. He's so hardworking and he's always got so many projects on the go that I find it fascinating. What is it like working with him? And that was my main question to all of them was about him and what it's like working with him and, you know, how he casts his shows and how they work. And I was not surprised to find out that they did, and I've heard this before from other people who've been in his shows, that he's deliberately and unashamedly kind of a bit ramshackle the way he works. He kind of, he will improvise in terms of, you know, a scene and he will add scenes in, take scenes out from the script.

1:55:39He will completely change the way a show is going in the middle of filming it and making it and writing it. He's kind of worked off the cuff. It feels like that though. And it does feel like that. And sometimes I think that ends up being really ramshackle to the point where it's a bit, it's kind of terrible. But I think in this case, at its best, it's very freeing and it's very fun and you can sense that everyone's having a good time and actually I had a good time watching it and I think in a weird way it's so grotesque and the body horror is so extreme that it's almost cartoon-like and I mean I'm not particularly that squeamish anyway and I love horror films and I love so this is right up my alley anyway but I actually think probably even people who might think they would find it too much to deal with because it's so cartoonish and the comic book origins I think are there for all to see and it doesn't take itself seriously it's quite tongue in cheek that the extremes of that you could probably maybe even have to deal with because it's not really realistic it's totally out there and absurd a lot of it the body horror element to it so I enjoyed all of that and I think for me the whole thing came down to why I really like this series is the Yacht Rock bit where the character played by Anthony Ramos suddenly sings sailing in its entirety in the car driving along alongside Jeremy Pope who's like, who the fuck is this?

1:56:57Like, black guys don't like, you know, Christopher Cross. You know, an incredibly middle-of-the-road yacht rock classic, like, sailing. And then they do another Christopher Cross song later on. The fact that it takes five minutes out of the running time of this show to have this scene, which is completely, it's completely indulgent. It doesn't have to be there whatsoever. It just kind of, you know, is a funny moment. I love that. And I think that, for me, set up the fact that this is a thing. There's 11 episodes of this. It's a fairly basic premise that, you know, You think, this is going to end up being incredibly repetitive.

1:57:27And how are they going to spin out for 11 episodes? Well, I watched like, I think I watched eight because I was interviewing. You watched eight? Because I was interviewing. I thought I would watch as many as I possibly can. And I'm glad I did because it somehow does manage to stretch this premise. I mean, to almost breaking point. But with backstory, flashback episodes, and episodes that focus on one character particularly, it does manage to make it entertaining and fun all the way through so far. and I'm sorry it will through all the extraordinary 11 episodes that there will be in the end of the show so I really had a good time it does yeah to your point it does feel like Ryan Murphy has had a lot of fun here he has gone I think he always does yeah I think he always does but this is but we don't always there's some incredible dance scenes like in the first episode I really enjoyed yeah there's a dance scene in that episode which I really liked and then I suppose what I'm saying it's just it's just constant though doesn't it bang bang bang bang every scene is relentless this.

1:58:21And before James reveals what he thought, which I'm intrigued to know, I love the fact, the other thing that I think sums it up is you've got this buddy cop thing going on with Evan Peters and Rebecca Hall as cop partners, and they're having sex within the first 10 seconds of you meeting them. And that is classic again. There's no messing about. Other shows, they'll be, are they? Will they? Won't they? Are they? Aren't they? They're doing it. They're literally doing it within the first five seconds of seeing them. And that, I think, that adds to the entertainment value massively. I know what you mean about, I suppose, where I'm saying if you're in touch, If you're in any way squeamish, don't watch it.

1:58:52Yeah, there is a sort of comedic element to it. But James, what did you think? I am not a Ryan Murphy fan. No. Like, at all. Why? Say your case. Well, I don't like the kind of lurid approach he has to stuff. But also, he is anything but subtle. Like, he is the least subtle story. I appreciate that. And there's a bit in this where a character goes like, I'm going to turn you into a Chad. What's a Chad? You're an incel. What's an incel? It's like everyone watching this knows what these things are. You don't need to educate people on incel culture. It's absolutely fine. But he is a little ham-fisted.

1:59:30But that is his thing. And I think if you lean into it, which this show very much does, it works. I actually really enjoyed this. And this is probably, and look, this is not saying a lot, but this is probably my favorite Ryan Murphy show since Glee. But that's mainly because I don't really like Ryan Murphy shows. But yeah, I thought the opening of this was absolutely audacious. I thought the introduction of, as you say, Evan Peters and Rebecca Hall was extraordinary. And then it goes on there, and you're captivated by this. Like, it's fascinating. And the Jeremy Pope sequence, when that kicks off, you're just like, this is mad.

2:00:03It is so unbelievably mad. And yet, it's incredibly watchable, and it's incredibly enjoyable. The only thing that has given me pause, Boyd, is you telling me it's 11 hours long. like that that maybe makes me think I don't know that I can quite make it through that Running Time is very it's 11 episodes they're not all an hour long but a lot of them are that's a lot I mean it is a lot but somehow I think it sustains it it does so far anyway I think I'm up to 7 or 8 but I had a very good time with this first episode I thought it was really good this is a show Isabella Rossellini have you seen her bit yet?

2:00:37no I haven't she wears the most fucking ridiculous outfits known to humanity and clearly I'm going to get Elizabeth I'm going to get Isabella Rossellini off Blue Velvet and other legendary shows and I'm just going to have incredible fun with dressing her up as a lunatic fashion victim and she's bonkers and brilliantly so everyone is insane in it and that is very much to be enjoyed I'm glad you liked it I'm glad too I think it's one of my favourite Ryan Murphys ever and I think this is it Ryan Murphy at his Ryan Murphiest whereas Glee arguably is Ryan Murphy at his least Ryan Murphy so I like the poles but I don't like the mid stuff well this goes back to Nip Tuck of course that was a brilliant series do you know what I actually really like Nip Tuck as well yeah Nip Tuck was great and this is his most kind of body obsessed show since Nip Tuck and in fact there's elements literally there's cosmetic surgery scenes that are horrendous yeah Nip Tuck was good actually yeah Nip Tuck was good and by the way there's a but Nip Tuck was ultimately character driven as well it was and it wasn't like Ryan Murphy had not yet learned to be Ryan Murphy at that point exactly And yet, but actually...

2:01:42There's no just inner Murphy in it out. It did get really out there. Yeah, there was the serial killer line, and it went mad. By the end of it, I think it went full Murphy, because he'd learned, I think, he could do well and be absolutely nuts. But I want to mention, you know, he's the king of stunt casting, right, Ryan Murphy? I mean, we talked about Bella Hadid in that first scene, that incredible first scene. People coming up in this series, and I don't know when this particular person pops up. I know, like, Meghan Trainor's in it, the singer,

2:02:08Billy Eichner's in it, Ben Platt's in it, but also Nicola Peltz-Beckham is in it. No, how topical. Yes, Brooklyn Beckham's controversial wife. Oh God, I need to find out. Okay, she's not controversial herself, but yeah. Well, I mean... Do you know what, I'm going to say something that everyone's going to go, oh my God, you're full of shit. Right, I watched Lola, her film. Oh yeah, did you? Yeah, I thought she... Is it on Amazon Prime, Prime Vida? I thought it was, I'm going to find out. I think it's on Prime Vida, yeah. I think she's an okay actress. Really? Yeah. Oh, that's interesting. I thought it was okay.

2:02:42I couldn't spot her, but then again, she might have been in the background. She might be in the background of like fashion show scenes or something. Oh, I've got to find out. But yeah, she is officially in the cast list. She was cast, yeah. So I don't know whether she speaks or not, but yeah, she's in there somewhere and we have to find out where. We have to find out where. I did mention this last week to our boss, by the way. But anyway, carry on. This is heat business. Oh, right. Right. Should we get back to the podcast? Yes. Okay, brilliant. Well, The Beauty, which is on Disney Plus. when, Boyd?

2:03:09The Beauty is on Disney Plus on... He says, leaving through... Classic Russell again. Classic Russell. Oh, God. Last week, Thursday, the 22nd. We are reviewing this late. We are reviewing it late, yes. Deadlines. Not deadlines. Embargoes. Embargoes. Those are the ones. Right. Okay, we've got one more show to go and not a lot of time to do it. So let's get into this. Finally this week, we have Undersault Marsh on Sky and Now, which is Claire Oakley's miniseries about murder in the marshes. What more can I tell you? that the stars have not already told you. Nothing, that's what. But Steph, look, Boydie is irredeemably compromised after being charmed by Ralph and Kelly, so it forced you to wade into Saltmarsh and tell us if this crime thriller measured up to your very high criminal standards.

2:03:52Okay, well, I would just like to say I am a huge fan of Kelly Riley. I love her in Yellowstone. I mean, so I've come to this thinking, my God, I love this woman, okay? And I loved this show. it is dark it is it's enticing her character the flame haired former detective who's turned into now she's working in a school and there is she discovers as she's walking home she's having a kind of illicit affair I don't think this is a spoiler I don't think it's a spoiler tell me if it is though she's kind of having an illicit affair with someone in this small Welsh village the people in the village are threatened with having to leave their home because there's going to be a huge flood which displaces them all and and she was walking home one night and she discovers that one has the body of one of her students in comes her old partner to investigate the murder and they've they have a complicated history because he was also involved in investigating with her the disappearance of her niece okay which is an unresolved unsolved crime okay I love everything about this there is not one thing I did not enjoy about it scenery yes every single actor stellar performance I watched as many as we could which was two I was at every turn there was something intriguing she's obviously drawn back she's drawn back into the world of investigating this crime Rafe's character's got a great backstory that is slowly becoming uncovered but everybody's character is so well-drawn and so interesting.

2:05:38I have got literally nothing bad to say about this. No notes. I've got no notes. To me, this is perfect. Visually perfect. There's not even a dud character. Even the characters just have a couple of lines perfectly placed. It's brilliant. I love it, and I cannot wait to watch the rest of it. Rafe Spall gives great bellend. He does. He really does, and he is quite a big bellend. Yes, he is. he's a really interesting character he is because I'm trying not to spoil it but he has past as well and that past is kind of a bit of a revelation and there's all stuff about his sexuality and his history as you say professional history with Kelly Riley's character and he caused a stir in the same community kind of three years previously so everyone hates him because everyone hates him and he's incredibly unwelcome and he kind of fights back by being a bellend.

2:06:36Yeah. It's believable because it's like, well, he's being attacked from all sides and it makes sense that he's going to lash out. And I like the fact that it's kind of the Broadchurch formula, right, in a way. So you've got the male detective and the female detective who are never going to be, there's never going to be any relationship there, you know, in terms of a sexual relationship. That's made quite clear. But it feels grittier. Which I think is refreshing. What I was about to say. Apologies. It feels like it has got that formula, male and female, male detective, female detective, or be it in this case, ex, but she really is the detective figure, really, alongside him.

2:07:13As she says, she has no option but to be involved. Exactly, exactly. A rural setting, a tight-knit community where everyone has secrets and lies, you know, in their closets. And, you know, a small boy has been killed, you know, a small child has been killed. it's got a lot in common with Broadchurch I think in terms of premise but it's got such a different tone and I think where Broadchurch is an out and out an incredibly pacey kind of fast moving brilliantly done the first season of Broadchurch is one of the best I think one of the best crime thrillers of our time but this has a much slower more deliberate pace I think it's a slow burn I think it gets more and more I've seen five episodes out of six it unravels yeah it's like and also the connections there are more connections and complications as it goes on it's actually really well plotted it's quite complicated because you've got different families, different interrelations going on across the families you've got lots of people with histories that they're hiding and there's sexual relationships that are going on as well at the same time whilst the investigation of the missing girl and the dead boy are taking place so I really liked it as well and I think what makes it so different from broad changes is even though it's got so much in common, it is that dark brooding quality to it that is partly visual because you've got this very very um very eye catching locale where it's shot it's actually a fictional little small town or village or if you want to call it but a lot of it's filmed in north in rural bits of north wales right on the coast and it really and it's kind of like also a disaster movie because you've got this impending storm like they're calling it the storm of the century or whatever going on in the background where as time goes on the the guy played by dino fetcher called gareth who's like the young guy who's trying to persuade the locals to take seriously the fact there's an environmental catastrophe about to happen and all their homes are about to be flooded if they don't evacuate.

2:09:05And they're all like, no, no, no, we don't need to evacuate. We've had this before. He's a really interesting character. Yeah, he's kind of put in there as a slight relief. Yeah. I just thought it was really clever and interestingly complicated and you have to focus on it. It's definitely not, you know... It's like an intricate web of secrets and lies. Yeah, it's very intricately done. It's a good word for it. So similarly, I was very impressed. and the two of them together are great and Rafe I mean I you know he's just brilliant I got to ask him about smoke in the interview did you? yes well we'll already have heard that on this podcast there you go so he's just brilliant at everything and he is really annoying he often is but I love it when he gets angry in this it's brilliant because he's kind of like suffering all these people won't cooperate with him they're like you know no no get he still keeps going but he kind of just takes it and then as the series goes on by episode 2 and 4 he's just like fuck you all just fucking do I say and get to grips with what's going on we've got to solve this crime and it's really satisfying when he explodes to them so you've finished it all haven't you I haven't seen the sixth and final episode I've seen up to episode five this all drops at once doesn't it I believe it does drop at once yes she gets a binge at all James please please tell me oh it's wonderful oh great I loved it yeah again but just the elegance is elegant even the right way it kind of is it is the screenwriting is so on point.

2:10:26And just because, like, and I was, the economy of how they get you to care that it's this particular boy that's been killed. Yes. It's done very quickly, so economically, so precisely, and so deftly, very early on. I thought that was my favourite scene in the whole thing. Not because it was showy, but I thought it did so much narratively with such a small amount of plot. But it was just perfectly, perfectly rendered. By the way, sorry just to say, it's actually only weekly episodes. It is weekly. It's not all at once. It's not all at once. Oh, I'm glad. I thought, why did I think it was all at once?

2:10:57I think most things are on top, but this isn't. Okay. This is not interesting. Yeah. I think they want it to be a weekly treat for people to... Well, that's definitely for the best, I would say, with a show like this. Yeah. Because, yeah, it's brilliantly done. The mystery is compelling. I think Rafe Swald is a fantastic foil to Kelly Riley in this because he's such a penis. You just hate him so much. But not because he's like a caricature guy, because he's a bit brusque. He's a bit of a jobsworth. He's a bit of a bellum. but he's actually a fairly, you know, he's fairly rigorous in the first episode, at least, in his policing.

2:11:28So he's not like he's incompetent, but he is, like, he comes there, nobody wants him to be there. He has, as you said, this past, and he's just like, for fuck's sake, why are you even on this case? Like, it's ridiculous. And he's incredibly abrasive with her as well. And, you know, part of it is you want to know the mystery, but you also, you want to unpick their relationship. Like, what is, like, why? Because you allude to a lot of the reasons why they don't get a lot. Why? What did you do? and there's another case that it all relates to. So all of that is fascinating. I mean, that's the thing that's great.

2:11:57Everything in this is a mystery. Everyone's relationship is a mystery that is unravelling sort of before your eyes. And at some point, I'm hoping, obviously by the end, this is all going to come together, but it just keeps you going, doesn't it? You're like, oh my God, oh no. Harry Lorty in the chip shop. Jonathan Price in the sheet. What is happening? Jonathan Price doing Welsh, very interestingly. Yeah, Harry Lorty, obviously the legend from industry. do it in a very you know not particularly big supporting role but a key role but that's what I'm saying every role seems key no definitely right we've only got four minutes left before we're going to get kicked out of the studio so this lands weekly not all at once Boydie Friday the 30th of January 2026 on Sky Atlantic slash now excellent what else is out this week Boydie the new season of Shrinking Kay's favourite Kay is obsessed with this show and the new season starts on Apple TV on Wednesday the 28th of January there's a new season of Death in Paradise your favourite oh I like Death in Paradise strangely BBC One Friday the 30th at 9 o 'clock what else is there Bridgerton Bridgerton no less oh my god the brand new series split in two as Netflix likes to do split into two or three these days but only split in two but the first batch of episodes of the new season starts on Thursday the 29th on your Netflix then there is there's a Take That documentary if that's your bag James on Tuesday on the Netflix I think it's a three-parter well I am into my musical documentaries now yeah there you go and there's a show called Devil in Disguise about John Wayne Gacy's serial killer have you seen this one?

2:13:31yes this is on ITV1 on Friday at 9 o 'clock which is quite an unusual bit of scheduling for a serial killer drama fascinating and terrifying character John Wayne Gacy if you don't know was the kid's clown and he used to get dressed up as a clown and he kept all the boys under his house oh good god don't tell me things like that yeah hideous sorry hideous and by the way if you I was on channel 5 on Saturday talking about Claudia Winkleman in a Talking Heads documentary right thank you for plugging that we should also mention The Nevers remember Joss Whedon show The Nevers which there was one point where they didn't show the final few episodes and then it aired on that random channel where it was in real time where you'd catch it like every 8 hours you'd be able to watch them but you couldn't stream it anyway they're all dropping on ITVX on Sunday the 1st of February true should you feel the need right what is our pick of the week let's start with you Boydie oh god I like them all this has been a pretty good it's a stellar week I think I'll go for Undersault Marsh though in the end I obviously am going to go for Undersault Marsh do you know what that is also my pick of these three as well would be Undersault Marsh unanimity yeah unanimity Undersault Marsh then that is our show of the week and that's it for this week's episode of the podcast please do leave us a five star rating we don't get a lot of reviews these days I can only assume what we do but not all of them positive it's people who get irate about certain things please don't do that I read some Please don't be annoyed about one single thing and then give us a one-star rating.

2:14:53You know, talk to us. Send us a message for the postbag. That seems like a much more mature way of dealing with it. Give us time to correct ourselves. Yes, exactly. Give us a chance. That's right. That's a bold move. Please leave us a five-star rating, not a one-star rating, a five-star rating. And, you know, follow us on the social medias as well. That would be good. We'll be back in your ears on Pilot Plus and we'll be doing possibly shrinking. We haven't really discussed it, but we'll come up with something. And on next week's show, on next week's podcast, we are going to be dealing with some shows I don't know what because there's actually not a lot on next week but we'll figure it out okay yeah it'll be great well no do you know what next week is a terrible week it is it's one of the worst weeks don't say that no it is it is it genuinely is no we'll find some good stuff but this podcast will be as good as ever yes yeah even though the week is bad for telly we will find amazing things to talk about do you know what if there's nothing else good to review maybe we'll end up doing his and hers or something like that just for the lols who knows there's a new service of the Lincoln Lawyer there is that's literally the only thing yeah it's one of the only things so please tune in next week for the essential episode of the Pilot TV podcast covering that week's TV until then Pilot out