Babies, The ‘Burbs, and Your Friends And Neighbours. With guests Elisabeth Moss, Lisa Kudrow and Michael Patrick King

23:19Like, as you said, class, abuse, control, the patriarchy, maybe. Is that what, again, what appealed to this? It's a thriller, but it also has a lot going on in terms of the themes it's discussing. Yeah, I love doing things where there's entertainment on the surface, fun. some deliciousness. This is obviously more of that than say Handmaid's Tale, but there's a lot more fun. But then we're used to Trojan horse deeper ideas and themes. I think that for me is what I like as an audience member as well, or a viewer, because you get to take what you want from it. If you just want to have fun and just watch a murdery, soapy, fun, sexy thriller, then great.

23:59You're going to have a great time. If you do appreciate maybe having a little bit more of a look a little deeper at something or at characters or flaws or humanity, then we have that too. I like that. I think that for me is what I like to watch. I should say, my favorite TV show of all time is The West Wing, which I rewatch, broadly speaking, every year. There must have been a point, because you've been in so many great shows and films and whatnot since then, but was there a point when you were working on The West Wing where you were like, I am never in my life going to get scripts this good because they're basically like little 45-minute plays each week.

24:34Because they're extraordinary. Yeah, I think that is what you get with Aaron Sorkin. I had this incredible gift of having him be one of the first writers that I got to work with and portray or whatever, ring to life. That was just, I mean, yeah, it doesn't really get better than that. I mean, and I don't think there's ever been a show again like that show. And I can say that because I'm not, I wasn't a producer on it. I wasn't on it every episode by any means. So I feel like I can talk about it in a way that is a little bit more objective than some of the other shows I've done. And I don't disagree with you.

25:11It's funny, I think British, not to generalize, but I do think there's a big fan base here for that show. Right? Would you agree? Oh, definitely. Yeah, I think so, right? Because I definitely hear about it a lot here. Also, you guys just have good taste. We did a discussion recently with our listeners is about the best detective characters in history. And I think Top of the Lake is one of the greatest of all characters. Now, I think it's about nine years ago since you did the second series in 2017. Yeah, I guess so. So you could do another. No, it was 20... Well, it might have come out in 2017.

25:47Oh, maybe it might have come out. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because nowadays, shows come back after 10 years. The comeback is back after 10 years being away. Thank God. You know that's my favorite TV show. Is it really? Come back? Are you kidding? Okay, so when we talked about it,

25:59Steph:I was like, I feel like this is so the female version of Curb. I feel that's what we were saying. And I was so there for it because like you were saying, all the things you want to say. She gets to say them. She's just so genius. And then all the supporting characters as well. And just, I feel like it's one of those things where you're like, we're never going to get another season of that. Like, it's just never going to happen. And the fact that they actually went and did it and they're giving it to us. It's so exciting. The coolest thing ever. we're interviewing Lisa Kudrow on Wednesday so if you have anything you want to ask her let us know I just got chills yeah it's incredibly exciting yeah I mean obviously I want to ask if they're going to do another one yeah I want another one now I haven't watched this one and I want another one yeah before the 10 year gap it would be great but if she wants to wait 10 years that's fine we just want another one absolutely that's all we want the commitment just the commitment just the commitment that's all no timeline it's fine yeah but do you think Jen Campion might be up for doing another series of Top of the Lane I keep meaning to ask her about it, actually.

27:00It's so funny. It literally has come up like three times very recently. Oh, really? Wow. Yeah, yeah. We've always kind of, not always, I should say, but there have been times where we've kind of talked about it, and a long time ago there was an idea for it, and then we all kind of went on to other things, but I would be so open to it, and to return to that character would be so cool, and I love The Long Gap. As a viewer, I know it sucks, but I love it. I think it's really fun to have that, like, you know. Absolutely. I mean, it's very cool. Yeah, we did a show here called Gavin and Stacey that had a 10-year gap.

27:41That's right, of course. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think there's something very fun about that. It makes it very special, yeah. It is, it's special. Yeah, and I think the character can live in people's minds and imaginations for that long. And you change as a person, or the actors change as a person, and the writers change. and in this day and age of everything being so quick and being this like instant gratification and there's just being so much to watch and it's just like, there's just so much. The idea of like having that. Yeah, some like delayed gratification of it returning.

28:11Steph:Yeah, I'm so with you. Yeah, it's just something about us. Completely. We are spoiled though at the moment, aren't we, with television because you've been at the kind of vanguard of this new age of television, first with the West Wing, then with Mad Men, but it feels like it's changed so fundamentally in the last 20, 25 years. The point where it's just extraordinary the level of quality that we have. I mean, as someone who has said you watch a lot of TV, you must be thrilled by the amount of stuff that's available, both in terms of your entertainment, but also roles. Yeah, I find myself looking now at, you know, I'm getting, I'm getting, I'm not old at all, but like I'm, I've been doing this long enough.

28:46I've been doing this for 37 years. So I'm starting to be able to really look back on a career, you know, and I feel so crazy, crazy lucky that I came up at the time that I did and had these television opportunities that I had because I am definitely old enough to remember when TV was not what you did. Right. It just wasn't, remember? It was like second fiddle to film, wasn't it? Absolutely very much second fiddle. It was like third after theater, you know? It was like truly third fiddle and I remember it very clearly. I wasn't a child when that was happening. I was already working when that was happening.

29:25You know, I started West Wing when I was 17. And, you know, that was, it was like, oh, you had all these theater actors and they were all these, all these really good actors were like doing television. I'm like, well, Martin Sheen's doing a TV show. He's a film actor. You know, and there was Glenn Close doing Damages. And, you know, it was like, right? Steph's favorite show. Oh, it's my favorite. You know what?

29:46Steph:That's so funny. I feel like Damage is like one of the most underrated shows of all time. You can totally see that. And I just thought nobody talked about Frank Cudor, but I mean, so obviously... I know what you mean. ...into, like, females, female role. How these great actors are, like, you've been so generous in portraying so many great female characters. Thank you. Is there any kind of woman that you'd like to portray? Any kind of, you know, any sort of role that you feel like you haven't done because you've just done so many. You've just done so many. Is there anything you're thinking? Well, I'm glad...

30:20The reason I mentioned damages is because at the time, it was rare to have two female characters on TV. Yeah, that was one of the first. And so I'm saying I remember a time when that was unusual. And I remember when I first started being lucky enough to go to the Emmys, whether it was for the West Wing or early days of Mad Men, even when I was 23. And it was unusual. usual and so I feel very very fortunate that I got to I love television it's truly my wheelhouse it's what I like to watch and it is what I like to do I love the longer format I love spending nine years making something like I like that so anyway I feel very fortunate to be a part of this in the last 25 30 years on the character thing I feel I think the only thing I'm looking for which is hopefully going to be addressed in my next show is I would love to I miss the comedy of Mad Men and the comedy of West Wing.

31:21I miss Peggy. When you went to read throughs of Mad Men, we had a read through every episode. It was a comedy hour. You would have thought we were making a comedy. It was hilarious. Nothing but laughs for an hour. I miss that. Obviously, there's not a lot of laughs on Handmaids despite the fact that I'm not going to say anything I'm going to get in trouble for. Stop that sentence right there. Not a lot of room for laughs, let's just say. So I miss that. And the West Wing is hilarious. So I miss that. And I'm hoping on my next show, which is Conviction, which is David Shore, who did House. Oh, we love House.

31:59We love House. Yeah. So that character, he was so funny. And there's definitely a lot of that kind of humor in the show that we're seeing so far. We only have a couple scripts. but that's the kind of thing I'm excited. Yeah, like I want to get back into a little bit. Like I laughed out loud when I read that first script and I miss doing that. Would you do an out-and-out comedy? Like, you know, like a half-hour comedy? I'd love to. I would absolutely love to. I'd love to do, I mean, I don't think I'm Lisa Kudrow talented in the sense of that's a very specific genius, but I'd love to be like the supporting character on something like that.

32:37You know, I'd love to be a guest star or whatever. that's my favorite kind of show I love the comeback Veep those are my shows so Curb so that's something that I would love to do for some reason I'm not the first person that comes to mind maybe all those years of the Handmaid's Tale I know

32:58Steph:like guys come on, not that serious boys you've got one job now speak to Lisa Kudrow get Elizabeth Moth in a series that we don't have Yeah, but we're going to get you in it. Tell her I'm hilarious. Oh, she's like the funniest person we've ever had. Okay, thanks. It's done. Yeah, boy, it'll make it happen. I appreciate it. Thank you. When I'm back here talking about my comedy, we'll be like, you guys started it. Well, Elizabeth, thank you so much for joining us on the show. That's it. I want to talk about TV more. I'd rather talk about TV than do whatever I'm doing next. Okay, that was Elizabeth Moss, as you can hear, becoming best friends with Steph.

33:38Steph:she was a great woman she's a woman's woman she was great she was a great woman you've said she's a woman's woman many many times you have okay but she is but I'm trying to make do you know why I'm saying it trying to make us feel better I am if I'm being perfectly honest I'm just trying to make you feel better because I know that James felt that she hated him it's understandable though like I get it she came on to talk about a woman's show and I'm a woman and we were here and you were here and that's what it is she was faced with the patriarchy yeah I think so in the form of two bald men yeah yeah I mean it's fine It's fine.

34:07It's fair. Shall we talk about what we've been watching? Yes. Well, I've been watching, you see, I dutifully, Oh, God. Knowing that, Here we go. Yeah, knowing that Mossy was coming in on Monday morning, I dutifully watched the rest of Imperfect Women on Sunday night, staying up quite late. And after, by the way, I've been to Wembley and back to watch my football team Arsenal get beaten by Manchester City 2-0. And you know, anyone who's ever been to a cup final at Wembley knows what a fucking nightmare it is. 80 ,000 people coming back on the same trains. It was like a hellhole. And then I got home and I thought, do you know what?

34:41I'll do. I've gone on watching Perfect Women because I have to finish the whole thing. Just, you know, I think just as a matter of professional pride. Professional pride.

34:49Steph:You're the best. Thank you. And also, you'd had to endure the text. Plus, you'd had to endure the text conversation where I was explaining about For All Mankind. But we can't get into that now. Let's not go back. we've explained that did we do that in Plus? we did that in Pilot Plus yes if you do not subscribe to Pilot Plus Steph's endeavour to try and watch For All Mankind is worth the subscription alone so do go and sign up now look up FAM an American sitcom FAM all caps if you want to see not the show that we reviewed in the end anyway I was happy to watch the rest of Imperfect Women because I enjoyed it I liked it and let me I'm just going to say I'm just going to say I've got to interrupt you okay I said on the pod okay I'm not doing a complete reverse for it because I said on the pod look maybe it gets better because I'd only watched one episode and you know I'm a hater of just watching one episode so it's not I just didn't I was worried beep beep how annoying anyway I'm Steph Sealand and I will change my opinion if I beat the celebrity God I hate myself go on Boyd anyway the point is that I genuinely think the series gets better and better and better because, as she puts it in the interview, the Trojan Horses is this big, glitzy, shiny, LA-based, you know, loads of kind of like property porn where all the characters live, apart from Elizabeth Moth's character, who lives in a normal kind of house with her kids, husband, with her Eustace husband and kids.

36:22But it's, you know, it's a lavish production. It's a thriller. It's, you know, glossy, glitzy, et cetera. But actually, it's about a lot of stuff as well. and it becomes more and more about stuff as it goes on. It's about a lot of stuff.

36:36Steph:Well, yeah, you know, abuse, coercive control,

36:43toxic masculinity, which is such a cliche in and of itself. I was trying to think of another phrase, but I can't. But it's also about, which I find quite interesting, which is that the kind of threefold friendship dynamics and how alliances and betrayals and confidences work. And we talked about this when we reviewed it. the same, Mike White depended it very well on The White Lotus, the idea that the second that one of the three isn't there, the dynamic shifts in interesting ways. Exactly, yeah. So I think in the end it's really good, and you can see why. It has similarities to other shows that we've done, kind of female-centered groups of friends where there's a murder mystery element involved.

37:18Big Little Lies. Big Little Lies. It's almost a genre in itself now, this kind of female-led whodunit, essentially. but I think it ends up being really satisfying the whole show and there's some brilliant kind of tete-a-tetes going on that her character gets involved with so yeah I really liked Perfect Women see what he's doing there he's trying to muscle in and draw Mossy away from you

37:43Steph:I'm going to watch the rest of it so that when we're on our podcast together we can talk about it how brilliant she is and then I wanted to mention we did a kind of mini review didn't we of SNL UK we did on Plus but in case for those people who don't... Well, okay, okay. To this point, I did not watch it but what I did do is I went on YouTube and I watched the skits that they released on YouTube which included Tina Fey's opening monologue and the cold open skit about Keir Starmer. I watched that as well. I have never... I'm so... Thank you for doing that. You're very welcome. And I also saw the one where they're trying to ruin the internet.

38:22So I saw that one as well which was the first one I saw where we are the people responsible for ruining the internet. I thought that was well observed and funny. And I thought it worked particularly well because they're English. I thought if you transplant that exact sketch to an American bunch of comedians, I'm not sure, well, for me, it doesn't land in the same way. So I thought that was good. The cold open one, which Donald Trump retweeted, yes. I didn't love that. I didn't find that. I felt like that was a little bit low-hanging fruit. Like it was topical, but it felt a bit tame. There was nothing there that really thought, oh, wow, that's great writing.

38:53That I thought was a bit of a letdown. Tina Fey is a legend and there were some great parts to that opening monologue. I thought it was hit and miss, but there were some hits and the Graham Norton bit was a lot of fun. I liked the bit when he was going through all the British culture moments. That was good. But apparently the best skit was the Junket skit, which isn't online, so I haven't actually been able to see that. No, they haven't put that up. I thought that was the cleverest.

39:15Steph:And that's the one you'll enjoy the most. That's the one I think I will enjoy the most. The best bit is the Last Supper bit where they have Diana. I did see that. I did actually watch that. I thought that as a bit, as it were, again, I was a bit like, okay, I'm not feeling this. But the guy doing Princess Diana was fucking incredible. That was so funny and so well observed. He was a massive highlight. He's brilliant. Yeah, yeah. But as other people have said before, and I said as well, it is the best Diana in the world. It's better than the ones from The Crown. It's the fluttering and the head movement.

39:48It's just genius. He's the star for me. I mean, I'm afraid to pick out, but I thought he's the star. I've picked him out. He's the star of the show, I think, for me. Is he? Only after anyone. By the time this goes out, of course, episode two of it with Jamie Dornan as the guest host.

40:01Steph:Oh, is it Jamie Dornan? Yes, Jamie Dornan. And he's good. He'll be up for a laugh. So, you know, I've seen the trailer for it with him and he looks good. I just think, but the bottom line is, I mean, the fact that you didn't hate it is something because you hate actual SNL, American SNL. I do detest SNL. Detest. I really do. I know I hate it. Like, when it has great skits, skits, and it does have some great skits, but I find like 90 % of them to be almost physically painfully unfunny. Yeah, what was interesting was that they followed the format of the American one, even down to, so the opening cold open, as you said, was kind of on and off, but they tend to open, more often than not I would say in recent years, with a political cold open, so it's often a Trump sketch or whatever, because they have some a guy who does a brilliant Trump impersonation, so it's usually the kind of political one And I agree with this.

40:51It wasn't the greatest, but I still think it was pretty good. I thought it was pretty funny. And the fact that Trump did put it on his, whether it's called Truth Social, whatever his fucking thing is, was incredible, really, for them. I mean, talk about any publicity is good publicity. I think in this case, it's true. And then to the set, the design, the set design, the way they bring in the band, just the whole kind of format of it is very, very, huge, very closely to the American SNL. And I've had conversations with people who've gone, why have they done it like that? Why do they have an American host?

41:25Why is it so American in the style and look of it? And I'm like, because SNL is, you know, whether you hate it or not, it's established it works pretty well. It's a format that works. Yeah, the format does work. It hasn't gone on for literally 50, 60 years. So I was expecting them to do exactly that, which is to reflect the format of the original. But I do think, I would say is, I watch most SNLs on and off. You know, it was currently running on the one with Harry Styles, which was like the second in the new season in America recently, was really good. He was good. But even then, there's always two or three sketches that don't work every single week.

42:03Agreed. And that's just a fact because not everyone's going to like every sketch. But I actually thought this was more consistently funny in a way than the most recent couple of American ones I've watched. So the fact that James detests the American version and has found some sketches, which he quite likes of this version, it's very promising. But I just think the whole thing is an incredible thing to undertake by Sky and to bring in a team of young, you know, they're not newcomers because a lot of them are on YouTube, YouTubers and, you know, the kids. They're down with the kids. The kids all know who they are.

42:35But I just thought the whole thing is such a brave, bold undertaking. And they've kind of pulled it off already because it's not terrible and it's pretty good. Well, that was the bar to clear, wasn't it? It was pretty much... As long as it's not terrible, it's a win. Yeah, and got 250 something thousand views, which I think is probably as much as it's going to get on a Saturday night, 10 o 'clock on Sky One. So in all in all, it's kind of a triumph.

42:55Steph:I think it is a triumph. I think, I mean, yeah, we did talk about this at length on Plus. Yeah, sorry if I'm repeating myself. No, you didn't repeat yourself at all. No need to apologise for me. Thanks, Kev. Thanks, Steph. Did you say thanks, Kev? I thought you did. I thought you said thanks, Kev, which is Kev and Steph together. No, I mean, and I think I said on there, I personally do feel a little bit of a responsibility to get behind these, you know, I know they're known to the kids, these comedians, because they're doing something bold. And I think they did a really good job. And they were always going to get, it was always going to get such huge criticism levelled against it.

43:32Steph:So I was really pleased with it. And as I said on Plus, I really liked it. And James, you are getting an A star because that, I'm so pleased you did that. By A star, do you mean a star? A cookie. I'm going to get you a cookie. Thank you. Yeah, thank you for watching that and giving your opinion on it, as is what we do on this podcast. It is, yeah. Anything else we've been watching other than Saturday Night Live? No, I think I said I watched all of the comeback. Did I say that? The comeback? Yeah, you said you watched all of the comeback. Because I am, as we speak now, in about two hours' time, I will be speaking to Lisa Cudrow and Michael Patrick.

44:04You will. I'm very excited about that.

44:05Steph:And who are you going to speak to? I'm going to speak to Noah Wiley and Catherine Lanassa. And who am I going to... Nobody. Nobody. You didn't want to send me out. You've already hoped. Yeah, you've already done your, you know, celebrity stalking for the week. No more celebrities for me. I watched this, right. Okay, I'm just going to say I've watched the whole, every episode of one of the things we're going to review. And that took a long time. The correct show? The correct. Okay, just checking. So that was six hours. So I didn't have a lot of time to watch something else. But I did have, either of you seen The Plastic Detox on Netflix?

44:42No.

44:42Steph:I don't think you should watch it. That's an anti-recommendation from there. I tell you why, right, because, okay, so it's Dr. Shana Swan, okay, who's a very well-known doctor for you. She's on the Instagram. She's on lots of things. She's written a million. She does Extinction Level Events. She's got a great book called, I think it is called Extinction Level. Anyway, and she is dealing, no, but she's amazing. She's dealing, in this particular show, she's dealing with unexplained infertility of a number of couples. and basically they go through, it opens and it's talking about plastic and plastic is in everywhere.

45:19Steph:You cannot get away from plastic. Every time you touch something plastic, you're absorbing plastic. Every time you drink something that's plastic, it's crazy. Every time you plug in one of those air fresheners if that's what you do, there's plastic coming. And it's honestly like everything you wear, unless you're, you know, just, you know, knit your own clothes or whatever. You're like, there's plastic everywhere. So it scares the shit out of you. Every time you use your toaster, everything's plastic. Toaster? Like, you know, because there's some... Don't put any plastic in your toaster. No, but there's, honestly, all the things that you think don't have plastic in, have plastic in.

45:49Steph:So she is talking about, you know, going through this huge plastic detox with these people, trying to remove plastic from everything in their lives. And it's incredibly interesting. It's very scary and probably impossible to do. So anyway, I watched that. I heard about the plastic detoxing thing. Yeah, that's the thing, isn't it? It's so hard, though. Yeah, because as you say, microplastics are an absolute other thing. I mean, Jesus. And then the other thing, I suppose, as you think about, you know, like, in the plastics boom of the 80s, when everyone was like, plastic's the best thing ever. It's like, all those people...

46:25I don't remember that particularly.

46:26Steph:Well, you know, everything was put in plastic, wasn't it? I remember rallying cry of... Okay, well, did you not hear about Tupperware parties? Oh, yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Rallying cry. Come to a Tupperware party. put everything you have in plastic. I mean, have things changed? People still use Tupperwares for everything, don't they? Yes, but now they're BPA-free. Okay, you know what? I'm just going to move on anyway, guys. Right? It's very good. It's really interesting, but it will scare the shit out of you because you basically have to live in a wooden house. Yeah, I might avoid that because it will just give me anxiety.

46:57Steph:But that's the only thing I've watched because I did watch six hours of something else. Okay. That's good. What have I watched? I have watched the entirety of Daredevil Born Again Season 2. Lots to say about that. we recorded our first spoiler special for that over on Empire we're not going to do them weekly because there's not that much to say but it was it was actually a lot of fun I enjoyed it a lot of fun a lot of fun as Cilla would say so that was good I also watched so I was on Friday night I was sitting at home and an email pinged up and it literally just said you have been provided with all of the pit season 2 and I was just like no and so I dug in you're like what I made a noise a lot like that I'm not doing it I can't possibly repeat it.

47:38Steph:James, can I just say something? Yes. I got that email. Yes. The week before last. Did you? Well, all of season two or some of season two? All of season two. Okay, well, I didn't. So I had all of season one already, which I'd already seen, and I had watched a load of season two, but they gave me the rest of season two. So I just dug in and I powered on through and I watched the whole of the rest of season two of The Pit and it was glorious. Absolutely glorious at a whale of a time. See, I can't do that. I'm very jealous because I'm trying to finish this thing I'm doing, this book I'm writing and it's just, I can't spare 12 hours to watch the rest of the pit.

48:11Oh, but it's worth it. Oh, but it's worth it. It was wonderful. So yes, I had the best, No, I need to do that. Best time. And I know there's something about that show where it actually works quite well parceled out but there is nothing quite like binging a real-time show in real time. It's quite intense. I know you're about to interview him but you may be asking him about this, I don't know, but did you see that he did this event earlier this week when he was in London, in like a one-on-one talk about the pit. Yeah. And he said that when the first thing that everyone's saying, all British people are saying to him is that they watched it on flights.

48:41On flights. No! Like both of us have. Really? That's really funny. Yeah. Yeah. And he's like, there's like a queue of people telling him, I watched it on a flight. It was brilliant.

48:49Steph:Oh my God, it's the ultimate flight show. It is. It is the ultimate flight show. But most importantly, I got an email about something before you, which is insane. What's happened? That is wild. And yet you didn't watch them. Especially considering the WBD screen. is one of the many that you've had trouble accessing in recent days, shall we say, slash weeks. I could do a whole podcast on Steph's screener sight problems. God, yeah. Wow. So is it as good as season one? It is. Is it better than season one? No, I think they're pretty much on par with each other. It's done in different ways. They don't try and do something wild and make it even more intense.

49:26They're just like, do you know what, the first season was brilliant. Let's see if we can recapture that and do it again. Okay. Which is largely what they do. so yeah I loved every second of that that was wonderful had some different emotional beats to it but really really liked it and the other thing I watched was The Sopranos so I watched the pilot of The Sopranos and I watched the finale of The Sopranos both episodes of which were written and directed by David Chase that is not an accident because I'm hosting an Empire VIP event on Thursday nights with David Chase so that's why I'm watching episodes of The Sopranos

49:54Steph:you had watched The Sopranos before though right? yes but 25 years ago yes no no no I appreciate that I felt like I owed it to David Chase to perhaps refresh my memory. It's one of the few shows he hasn't done a re-watch for. Oh, yeah, why not? I've never re-watched it. Because he's got a re-watch Game of Thrones five times instead. Oh, because of the dragons. Indeed. All right. But yeah, you know, spoiler, it's pretty good. Yeah. Yeah. What did you think of the ending? Spoiler, it's really good. I mean, the ending is almost the most famous thing about it. Yes, and I have said before on this very podcast that I was not, you know, I didn't think that ending was very good.

50:26Oh, I like the ending. Steph wasn't having it. I like the ambiguity.

50:29Steph:I fade to black. Will you be discussing that when you're doing it? Not so much Fades Black as Cut to Black. Yeah, yeah, yeah. When are you doing it? We're doing it on Thursday night. So as this podcast goes out, it will be last week. Excellent. But yeah, looking forward to it. Yeah. Should be interesting. He's not terrifying in any way, shape or form, so I'm sure it'll go really well. You'll be fine. You will be fine. It'll be great. Yeah. Yeah, should be good. Okay. Anything else? Or are we done there? Nope. Right, let's move on to this week's question. If you're done, then we're all done. Yeah.

50:56That's it. We're all done. Oh, I didn't understand this question, by the way. Carry on. Oh, okay.

50:59Steph:Oh, we should have had our pre-a talk. Well, this question comes from Dion from West Wales, which is very specific, and I like that specificity. Right. With SNL UK launching this week, I want you to know what are some of your favourite and least favourite shows that have been shared between the UK and the US? Now, keep up the great work. You make my Monday mornings much better. Oh, you're making me think I haven't understood it now. I just used the word shared. I thought it meant when we've had British shows that have been made into US remakes is that not right? so like The Office yes indeed well The Office is the answer so it's remakes that have gone either way so pick one I was slightly confused by the word shared then you tried to confuse me well that's how I chose to interpret it maybe they meant something completely different I think that's probably yeah because there's an American version of SNL the format and the British version of SNL yeah because I suppose are you thinking shared like I don't know like the way that Downton is just Downton and when they went to America everybody loves Downton because that's a share isn't it yeah anyway but no it's obviously there's American and British versions it's more common obviously for something to go from Britain to the US than the other way around but it is not unheard of for it to come the other way and for us to do remakes of American shows no so like what yeah like what do not put me on the spot like that well okay here's an example there's it's going to be a sci-fi thing well technically Technically, you could probably say, so Broen came first, then the bridge, then the tunnel.

52:29So the tunnel was technically a remake of the bridge, and the bridge was American, even if the bridge was a remake of the Scandi show. You know, your favorite, Broadchurch, you know, they did the American version with David Tennant. That was weird. That's mad. I'd be fascinated to ask him, I mean, other than the enormous check, I'm certain they gave him, why did he want to play the same character again? I actually have asked him that, because I interviewed him, I've interviewed him many times, and I definitely discussed, we discussed it and he was like, well, why not? I already knew the lines.

52:57I like the character, blah, blah, blah. Yeah, but it is mad. That is bonkers. Yeah, that was bonkers. Absolutely mad. Yeah. I've got a full list. But the answer is The Office, isn't it? Go on. Right.

53:06Steph:Gavin and Stacey was turned into Us and Them. Was it? Yes. Didn't know that. It was tanked, right? Yeah, not good. Yeah. Okay. Obviously, Shameless, which you've discussed before. Oh, Shameless is good, yeah. But I, and I didn't, I refused to watch the American version because I think the British version is so good. Ran longer and was apparently really good. Yeah, it's got a thingy Alan White in it as well, who's very good. Jeremy Alan White. Thingy Alan White is his name. So obviously, yeah, The Office. Oh, This Country and Welcome to Flatch. Have you heard of that? Yeah, This Country, I think, wasn't not great either.

53:40Am I right? But I haven't seen it, yeah. But I don't think it worked.

53:44Steph:The US version of This Country was on TikTok and Great British Break-Off was made into The Great American Baking Show. Yeah, but the funny thing about that is... Prue went over, did she? Did someone go over? Well, you can't call it Bake-Off there, can you? Because it's trademarked. No, so they call it, whatever they call it instead, The Great American Baking Show. The British Bake-Off. No, but they did that which was neither in on there because Americans just love the British version more. Yes, yes. And so the British version is a hit there. They watch it, it's on Netflix, I believe. Yeah, I've got a lot of American friends who love The Great British Bake-Off.

54:17Steph:Broadchurch we've discussed turned into Grace Point I'd never heard of this Miranda they did a version called Call Me Cat have you heard of that? Isabel yeah that sounds crazy who's in the Miranda role it's oh the girl who played Blossom what is her name she's in oh in Big Bang Theory yeah what's her name I can't remember what's her name no Amy Sarah Fowler in the Big Bang Theory yes hold on this is good podcasting this is great podcasting It's this level of preparation and research, I think, that really sets us apart from the competition. So, yeah, it was played by Mayim Bialak. I'm not going to pronounce that correctly.

54:55Steph:The girl who was Blossom. And then in Big Bang Theory and all that kind of stuff. Yeah, and apparently that didn't do well. No. And, do you remember the Inbetweeners? They did the Inbetweeners. Yeah, yeah. The American version of the Inbetweeners. Yeah, that was a disaster as well. But they've done loads of them. Like, they did... Skins? Skins they did? They did do Skins, yeah. Skins, um... What was the... Queer as Voke? Space they did Space they did Did they do Space? Queer as Fuck Now this is a very good point Queer as Fuck did work Queer as Fuck went on for five seasons And Russell T Davies Often points out that It's left out of lists Of successful transfers Of English shows to America I have no idea But that was absolutely success Five seasons Really?

55:35And it was a proper like A large number of episodes Per season as well

55:39Steph:How many seasons did we have here? One There's only one And two parts special So you know one and a half that's a huge success no it was massive because Russell doesn't do returning shows generally Russell C. Davis but yeah that was a big big hit okay that's a great one showtime Strictly Come Dancing Dancing with the Stars yeah I mean that's done alright isn't it I mean wasn't Geordie Shore based on Jersey Shore yes kind of if we're talking UK stuff because we took Law and Order didn't we so we had Law and Order UK so we took that format but the other way around which Shibnall did yes both Cracker and Prime Prime Suspect made their way to the US.

56:16Because Prime Suspect was that show Fitz, which was dreadful. Cracker was. Prime Suspect was the Keira Sedgwick one, I think. Came quite a bit later. That was actually decent. I love Keira Sedgwick.

56:26Steph:I haven't seen her in anything for ages. I'll tell you what the most disappointing, one of the most disappointing ones for me, a conversion of a British show to an American show, was Utopia. It had all the elements. The credentials were incredible. Gillian Flynn of Gone Girl fame wrote the script, I think. Great cast, I seem to remember. and it just didn't it just didn't have the same kind of dynamism to it and yeah it was a real shame because I was really really hoping that was what it was David Fincher I think was involved yeah I was bitterly disappointed with that that was one of them do you know what they should take from us the capture they should take that I think that would do well over there actually they should just put our capture over there speaking of which we're all one the most recent episode of that I saw which was actually the third one was absolutely wild oh do you know what I could have added that to what I've been watching.

57:15Yeah, it's incredible. That third episode. I think this season is so brilliant. I mean, it's all great, but it's been like even more spectacularly wild, as you say, than ever. And it's fantastic. I'm loving it, yeah.

57:26Steph:So what would we say? So, right, Queer as Folk, obviously, I had no idea that was so successful. What do we think is the most successful? The Office. The Office. It is The Office. Oh, yeah, gotcha. It's The Office. Yeah. I mean, in many ways, it was, would you say, it was kind of to a certain extent almost more successful in the US than it was in the UK because it suddenly ran longer and it would have had a bigger audience. So how do you quantify better? I saw this amazing clip of Ricky Gervais being interviewed on The View and one of the hosts says to him, so you were in the British version of The Office and he goes, hold on, I think what I like to call the original.

58:00Yes, yes. No, him and Steve, Ricky and Steve decided absolutely themselves Yes, I know they did. Ended after two seasons and two series and Christmas specials. So I think to say, whereas the American one was designed to become a long-running, which it did, become a huge thing. So I think it's an absolute phenomenon because the American office is a pop culture, massive pop cultural hit. But I think the absolute perfection of the British one will always, for me... It's almost hard to compare because when you get past the first season, the American one is a completely different show entirely. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

58:38it's a different beast trying to say

58:39Steph:I think Ricky Gervais is really really brilliant at knowing when to stop and keep something so precious isn't he so yeah Afterlife the first thing he did was more than two series did three series of Afterlife Ghosts actually worked quite well the US version of Ghosts was decent oh I haven't seen that which I assume it might still be going is it still going I think so yeah that was a hit do a number crunch do another like riveting Google search yeah no Ghost is a good point Ghost did really well and of course they're making a film about that film about it they're making a film they are indeed that's true oh my god it has been renewed through 5th and 6th season yeah I think it was I think it's one of the most watched like in terms of new comedies of the last few years Ghost of the US version does really well but they show on BBC3 as well of course yeah we will not talk about the American Red Dwarf because it's just upsetting oh no no no no because as we've established you and I both love Red Dwarf and Boyd for some unfathomable reason doesn't find it funny.

59:39There are loads of shows that never got past the pilot stage like UK shows that went to pilot in the US. I think Red Dwarf might be one of those actually because they had a thick of it. They had a thick of it pilot that didn't go to series before they made Veep. Right.

59:51Steph:Oh, do you know what? The Thick of It is such a British show. I can't see how that would translate. I mean Veep's obviously amazing but do you know what I mean? The Thick of It I don't know how that would. Well, except the film that won what was it called? which kind of was half set in America, if not, in fact, it might have been tiny set in America. In the loop. In the loop, thank you. Kind of effectively was, do you remember James Gadolfini, wasn't it? Oh my God, I've just thought of another one. Sorry to cut you off. House of Cards. Yes, House of Cards, yeah, absolutely. But I mean, we'll have to draw a veil over that.

1:00:23We do have to try, no, I know we have to draw a veil, but...

1:00:25Steph:But it was brilliant. I love Castle Cards, it was great. They even kind of managed to almost carry on without him, didn't they, when she took over in the final season. I did carry on without him and it was fine. It's still pretty good, yeah. Yeah, no, good. Anyway, let's move on. Sorry, I've brought up some questions. Well, we've exhausted that question and indeed each other and presumably the listeners. So let's move on from there. If you have a question for the podcast, the address is pilotTV at empiremagazine.com. For now, there's a new email address coming. Bear with me. You keep saying that.

1:00:57Steph:I'm teasing the new email address, but I checked it yesterday and it doesn't work. Oh, great. Oh, why are we getting a new email address? Because, you know, for fun. For fun. Okay, for funsies. Yeah, that's right. Shall we move on now to news? And I know what you're going to say, Steph. I know what you're going to say, and I'm sure Kay would have written in to mention this herself, but you will know I was bereft when The Wheel of Time was cancelled after its third season. But it's okay, because The Wheel of Time is coming back in animated form, possibly as movies and a show, and the studio behind Arcane is connected to it.

1:01:27It's like Christmas come early. It's very, very exciting. I'm not quite sure how it's going to work, because they were like, there was this question it was going to be a companion. I'm like, well, how does that work? Are you going to continue the story? Is it going to be like, are you going to start again from the beginning? How's that going to work? I don't know. So, we'll see.

1:01:43Steph:Give me a short synopsis about what The Wheel of Time is about. And when I say short, I mean... Steph, come on. In short, it is a high fantasy saga written by Robert Jordan spanning about 14 books. Okay. Classic good versus evil struggle. but it's quite dense. The TV show, I loved. Not many people watched it. Okay. Okay, if Foundation is like a, you know, a 10 on sci-fi. Yes, on the impenetrability scale. Yes. Yes. What is Wheel of Time? Oh, it's not too bad. I'd say it's like a seven, maybe a seven and a half. Okay. So it has its moments. You do kind of have to pay attention because the law is quite dense at times but it's not, you know, impossible to follow.

1:02:27Steph:Okay. does it have one of those crazy massive mathematics quiz like it does at the beginning of Foundation no okay fine Boyd did you like Wheel of Time no I watched I tried to watch each at the beginning I watched the first episode of each season which is as the creation intended mainly because James forces to review it on this podcast and I didn't go on with that I have to say no it wasn't for me well now it's going to be an animated series and that may be an access point suddenly by the way James has been converted to animated series right so they're part the arcane studio so that's my way into that But yes, admittedly, I was like, animated.

1:02:59It's like how I felt when they announced the Firefly thing. I was like, great, animated.

1:03:02Steph:I know. But, arcane. But as I've said a few times, animation is a great way for, if you have young children, for them to access shows that you want them to watch when they're older. And it's, you know, fun for all the family. That doesn't help me specifically with Wheel of Time, but sure. It doesn't. No. Sorry. Okay. Okay, so that was a bit of news. Yeah. Another bit of news I'm going to throw your way before you get in there is Wonder Man has been renewed for a second season. Oh, do you know what? You've never, ever truly committed to that show. You've always had a little bit of... Yeah, because do you know why?

1:03:34Steph:Because he's always been a little bit snooty about it. And it's unjust. Snooty Magoozie. Snooty Magoozie. Yeah, and you said that in a, I don't know who's done this, but it's a wrong decision. It seems like an odd decision, because it felt conceived to be a standalone thing. I know it leaves the door open at the end, but it felt like it was a one and done. And also, I was like, who's watching this show? Like, genuinely, because who's it for? I enjoyed it but I still don't know entirely who it's for so I'm surprised that it's coming back I'm not sure how I feel about that whether I think they should have just left it be I think when we reviewed it you went it's fine yeah I liked it I watched every episode of it I thought it was very good I liked it yeah well you'll like it even more because it's coming back I'll watch the second season yeah okay good Bridgerton a show you refused to take part in accurate they have confirmed that the leads for next season season five are going to be Francesca and Michaela and they're going to be the focus of next season, which I'm very excited about.

1:04:28And for those at home, who are Francesca and Michaela?

1:04:31Steph:It's really hard to talk about this without giving season four spoilers away. Okay, try. So, Francesca is one of the Bridgerton daughters who was happily married and Michaela is her... Her cousin-in-law? It's her cousin-in-law, yeah. Cousin-in-law? Yeah, she's the cousin of her husband. Right. But I can't say much more because it'll give away what happened in season four. Okay. Something sad happened. If you know, you know. Boyd, anything from your camp? Yeah, well, I don't want to get too awards heavy, but... But you will. But I know there is a segment of our listenership that enjoys me reciting nominations.

1:05:15very small fetish driven group whoa whoa

1:05:18Steph:hold on I'm just going to make myself comfortable because I love it when you read lists so go on I thought anyway so last night was the Royal Television Society Awards that I was at Kay was there of this parish my beloved we weren't sat together annoyingly in fact we could barely be sat further apart Kay was right at the front near the stage and you were at the back I was at the back wow oh my god did you complain I did sit next to Gabby Roslin though and Suneetra Sarka the actress who's very who was Casey sitting with she was sitting with a bunch of randoms was she do you think she tried to say to someone important can i get my friend boy to come and sit at the front with me and they said no he's not important enough okay you stay there who knows she may have done anyway it was it was a fine night and um there were i won't recite all the winners you can google it have a look at the winners because because i am going to recite some of the nominees because the baffler nominations came out this week as well in fact yesterday as we're recording this on wednesday the 25th and surprisingly or not Adolescence was the most received the most nominations and it did pretty well last night as well and but the second highest number was A Thousand Blows so Stephen Graham is like just ruling the world right now as he should as he should have you seen that film with the kid in the basement that he's in which is called I think it's called Heel in the US and over here it is called Naughty Boy or something Good Boy I think it's Good Boy that's it The Naughty Boy The Naughty Boy I have not seen The Naughty Boy.

1:06:43I really want to see it. There are hardly any screenings of it. I haven't heard of it. It came out last Friday. I really want to see it. Anyway, he is the man of the moment. And sure enough, A Thousand Blows is nominated. So I'll just run through a couple of categories. Just, you know. Please do. People like to know.

1:06:57Steph:People like to know. Yeah, the people demand it. People demand it. So, drama series, A Thousand Blows, the aforementioned with Stephen Graham and others. Blue Lights. Yes, Blue Lights. Which won last night, one of the RTSs. so that was good Code of Silence nice and This City Is Ours which I really like the Liverpool kind of set but also Spain thing with dodgy gangsters etc really good limited drama Adolescence which will obviously win I Thought The Law with Sheridan Smith Trespasses on Channel 4 which was the Irish drama that we didn't really talk about on here for some reason I think it was a really busy week but it's got a lot getting a lot of awards attention and what it feels like for a girl which we did review which I think was absolutely brilliant leading actor Colin Firth for Lockerbie Ellis Howard for What It Feels Like for a Girl James Nelson Joyce for The City Is Ours Matt Smith for The Death of Bunny Monroe Stephen Graham for Adolescence and the best nominee of the whole thing and I'm including all the technical awards everything and it's about time this show got some awards recognition oh god you know what I'm going to say is it love rap no smoke Taron Egerton has been nominated for Best Actor for the Demented delirious delicious smoke my favourite mental show and it hasn't been nominated for anything because he's so mad but he brilliantly has been nominated and I'm so thrilled for him obviously he's going to lose to someone from adolescence of course he's going to lose but I feel like that that word has not been used in any other award ceremony at all I don't think it has no wow why do you think it's in this one because it was mad absolutely fucking bonkers but I loved it yeah but why do you think they've decided to give it some recognition because well there's clearly some people on the panel only knew what they were talking about.

1:08:40Oh, absolutely. And do you know, actually, I am a BAFTA voter, so I voted for it in my... Oh, you did? Here's a question. What single episode were you basing this on? Well, that's a good question, but you're talking about BAFTA... I wasn't on a jury, so BAFTA voters get to vote for the stuff as well. So some of the things are decided by jury, some of the things are decided by all the voters, etc. So I wasn't on a jury, but you're only allowed to consider one episode which the TV companies put forward to represent the show itself. That's a difficult one for that. That is a difficult one for that.

1:09:12Really difficult, yeah. Leading actress, Amy Lou Wood for Film Club.

1:09:17Steph:Oh. Yeah, she's great in that. Yeah. I love that show so much. I'm being yourself. With excitement. Slash. If you haven't watched Film Club, watch Film Club because it's great. It was good. Erin Doherty for A Thousand Blows. Jodie Whittaker for Toxic Town, which I'm really pleased about because she was brilliant in that. Nargis Rashidi for Prisoner 951, which was excellent. You know, the Iranian. Yeah, yeah. That was incredibly moving. Sheridan Smith for I Thought the Law and Sean Brooke for Brood Blue Lights. That's a really good list, I think. Oh, that's a tough category. It is a tough category.

1:09:46Very tough category. I'll just do a couple more. Should I do Supporting Actor and Supporting Actress? Or should I do Scripted Comedy and Best Comedy Acting? What should I go for? Let's do Scripted Comedy, Amanda Land, Big Boys. How are you? It's Alan Partridge, my personal favourite, although Big Boys is brilliant, and Things You Should Have Done, which is very funny as well.

1:10:06Steph:That's a tough category. And Best Actor in a Comedy, Jim Howick for Here We Go, John Poynting for Big Boys, Lenny Rush for Am I Being Unreasonable, Mowan Rizwan for Juice, brilliant, Oliver Saville, Changing Ends, the one who played Young Alan Carr, and Steve Coogan for How Are You at Sound and Punch, and Steve Coogan won last night, Best Actor in a Comedy Actor, which was brilliant, and Best Actress in a Comedy, Diane Morgan for Mandy, Jennifer Sauners for Amanda Land, Catherine Parkinson for Here We Go, Lucy Punch for Amanda Land, Philippa Dunn for Amanda Land, you may get a theme here three out of the six are from Amanda Land and Rosie Jones for Pushers on Channel 4 which James didn't like and let's I'll leave it there I could go on but there's about 25 ,000 categories I enjoyed it James thanks can I just quickly say please did you know did you know that for all mankind not fam for all mankind it's ending it's ending it's ending with one final season season six it's been renewed but that will be the final season they're not doing any more they want the quote we're thrilled to have the opportunity to finish the story the way we've always hoped which will bring it up to roughly the present day yeah yeah that's exciting oh interesting exciting and there's a spin off as well yeah Star City Star City yeah oh but actually I'm going to give you one more just assuming you thought it was over oh god no no no because this is the international category of the BAFTAs and this is an incredible list I support you The Bear ooh Pluribus, Severance, The Studio, three Apple TV shows reflecting the power and strength of Apple TV, The White Lotus and The Diplomat.

1:11:48Oh my God, that sounds tough. Our favourite.

1:11:50Steph:That is tough. Pilot TV favourite, The Diplomat. Despite its unconvincing running, The Diplomat has been recognised. I think that's a brilliant list of shows. That is a brilliant list. As I had previously revealed, I don't like Severance and I know everyone else loves it. Yeah, Severance hater. Yeah, I know. Why? Why do you hate it so much, Kate? Go, Steph. Right. Name tag, please, someone. Go ahead, if Elizabeth Moss was here, what would she say? Oh, she'd be furious. She'd be furious. She would be furious. I think I said one of my main things is the lack, the set. You know, I feel like there's nothing to grab hold of.

1:12:24Steph:The corridors are annoying. There's nothing to grab hold of. I mean, the corridor thing is a very Boyd complaint. Yeah, it is a Boyd complaint, and I support you with that. Thank you. I just I can't get on with it guys I know I'm sorry fine right let's move on okay Mahershala Ali has signed on for season 2 of Task really? that is a nice bit of casting don't know a lot about that continuation of the story but that's I'm very very pleased with that that is very nice what else has happened oh Star Trek Starfleet Academy has been cancelled so to be fair it's getting a second season because frankly they've just finished filming it so they're going to put that out but the second season will be the last one.

1:13:03So I guess it did not hit with people in the way they had hoped. It's a shame, isn't it?

1:13:06Steph:I thought it was okay. I thought it was pretty good. In fact, it's been on my sofa list to watch and now less so, which is a shame. Yeah, because then you won't be able to keep going. Well, unless they, I don't imagine they do kind of finish it properly because I think it got cancelled after they finished shooting. But yeah, that's a little bit sad. Boo. HBO announced the start date for Euphoria Season 3. Oh yeah. Which is sooner than I expected. it's coming up in a couple of weeks time April 12th in America I assume it will be April 13th on Sky Atlantic and HBO Max Is this new news? I feel like it's been in the calendar for a long time What not Kizan?

1:13:42No I think it was only announced literally today well 17 hours ago in fact Maybe I'm just prescient There's a poster star-studded poster with all the because they're all huge stars now I'm almost certain I've had it in the calendar for quite a while Well just because you have your own overall god-like knowledge Yeah that's it None of the rest of us possess. I'm excited about the new season of Euphoria because I think it's going to be wild. Absolutely wild. I think that's fair, given that it's Euphoria. So when those arrive, hopefully, from the same screener site as the aforementioned Pit, I'm going to have to watch it.

1:14:22Steph:You will be doing it. You're going to have to. I'm going to have to finish my book, but whenever that happens. How many more pages have you got to write? It's just editing it down. Oh, okay. okay time for our next guest and we have a little interview that is Boyd's highlight of 2026 or rather it will be because as we've said he is heading off to do this very very soon in fact as soon as we finish recording right now he's going to head off and he's going to talk to Lisa Kudrow and Michael Patrick King the star and creator of The Comeback even as we speak they are sitting in a hotel room waiting waiting for Boyd's arrival the show which we've talked about already this is Valerie Cherish back at it again only this time making a sitcom written by AR and it is available on both, I want to say, Sky Comedy and HBO Max.

1:15:03Is that correct? Yeah, it is. Assuming all goes well, this is Boydie Talking Comebacks with Lisa Kudrow and Michael Patrick King. Michael Patrick King, Lisa Kudrow, welcome to the Pilot TV Podcast. Thank you. Michael, I don't know if you remember, you won't remember, but I interviewed you last summer when, and just like that, was finishing. And at the end of my interview, I said to you, one day, do you think you'd be able to do a comeback? And you kind of went, finally you should say that. I am in talks with Lisa. So at what point did you decide, yes, we're going to do this? We always met every couple of months or years or weeks.

1:15:39I don't remember, minutes, and would have a conversation. And it would always come around to, what do you think Valerie's doing now? And there was never a mandate from HBO to do it. We all ended beautifully in the second season. We were like, that was great. We did great. Yeah, we're done. And then all of a sudden, Lisa and I started circling the idea of too bad Valerie wasn't here during the writer's SAG strike because she would have been funny in it. And then I thought, well, why can't we start in the past three years ago? Because the thing that I thought was most curious about the strike was when it ended, they said we're going to have to renegotiate in three years because of AI.

1:16:19So that's the idea of AI came in. And then we knew we had a crazy car for Valerie to drive. You know? The call was key. Yeah, really. It really is. It was very important. Yeah. It's interesting. No, it was because she's finally offered the lead in a multicam sitcom. So it has to be the worst thing possible. It's written by AI. But how does she say no to a lead on a multicam sitcom? And to me, the interesting thing of the first episode is she kind of does say, she does say, I can't do that. Absolutely. That's a bridge too far. Are you guys aware of just how high the level of anticipation and excitement is about the return of your show?

1:17:06Because I had Elizabeth Moss on our podcast, you know, the actress on Monday. And somehow we got into the subject of the comeback and she cannot wait. She said, can you tell them to do season four? I know you said this is the last one. Can you get a role for her in it? People are beyond excited. Wow. I mean, that's really nice. And what's sort of a gift is, you know, that that's people are waiting. And then when you get in and you're doing it, it's almost like a beta blocker. You don't think about anything except the moments that you're writing. And then you get to perform them, which is all inclusive of just doing it.

1:17:41And then when you're editing, you start to feel like, I hope it's going to meet the expectation. Right. Yeah, that's pressure. Yeah. Did you feel that pressure? Yeah, after we're done. And parts during, yes. It's like, are we hitting the right, I don't know. Well, let's see. Well, we'll see. I don't know. Yeah. Going back to the beginning, when you first created the character of Valerie Cherish, what was it you were trying to say about her? What was the essence of her, if you like? Oh, to me, it was a self-important, phony actor thinking she can control how she comes off in reality TV. Like, she can be in charge of that, which is impossible.

1:18:25Yeah. I think the thing that Lisa enjoys most from the very beginning when she told me about this character called an actress on a talk show, The thing that made her laugh and always makes Lisa laugh is someone who is unaware of their own bullshit. And that makes Lisa laugh because she's not that person. Yeah. But she sees it. And that made me laugh. So building a character that was sort of, it's never one-dimensional because Lisa's playing her. But as she grew over the years, we added more and more other sides to her that we came to not laugh at but appreciate. Yeah, it definitely feels like in this season more than ever, it feels like you're deepening her.

1:19:12And you're kind of explaining and exploring why she's so self-absorbed and all of that. Was that a conscious thing or was it just kind of just how it ended up being written? I mean, I just that's I think the circumstances this time brought that out. You know, she didn't ask to be in charge. Yeah. And as everyone who's supposed to help and be in charge, like, just doesn't show up. She's the only one. Yeah. I don't it's just right. It's just how it. That's the Valerie take. The Lisa Michael writing take is you have to constantly evolve characters. Even if Valerie seems the same, we evolve the situations around her that are going to push her somewhere new.

1:19:59We don't want to do the first season again. We did it. So the writing part is like, how do you evolve her? And what became interesting was if the first two seasons she was chasing the spotlight, what would be interesting for us writing is if we put her in the spotlight. Like people were like, you're it. But then she's in charge of a dysfunctional, unwieldy world. But, yeah, I mean, you always want to change her a little bit. It's a trick to writing a series. People are waiting for her to do the Valerie thing. Yes. And then you do selective writing to be whatever the new Valerie thing is. Yeah, because you do the new Valerie thing, but obviously there's lots of people from the past that arrive without spoiling too much.

1:20:44And it feels like almost everyone gets an explanation of why they've behaved as they have done. Right. Right? Which is fascinating. Oh, good. Yeah. Oh, good. Thank God. The other thing that we really were, it's a very bizarre thing. We wanted Valerie to be good on How Is That, the sitcom, within the sitcom. We wanted to show that she would be somebody. We tried to make it as good as you can when it's a sitcom that's being seen only a minute of every now and then. But we didn't want Valerie to be a joke. We wanted her to be strong in a quote-unquote sitcom that's maybe not so great. Well, what struck me was that as you finish the whole thing, the whole season, it's kind of a celebration of the sitcom, isn't it, in a way?

1:21:26Like what a great genre it can be at its best and how people need that escape and need to laugh. And I think there's a lovely kind of sweetness to that in the end. Oh, good. Yeah. I mean, is that something you completely identify with just how important and how much to our lives sitcoms are? Yes. Very, very, very much. I mean, in the writing room, Lisa made sure that Valerie said, Lisa Cudrow made sure Valerie said she stood up for sitcoms and saying they can be culture-defining if they're great. She really wanted, Lisa really wanted that in the show, and that's only something Lisa would have thought of.

1:22:05Yeah. It's mad to think, isn't it, that the first season you were cancelled after the first season. Do you, I mean, did they ever explain why? I mean, it seems such a ridiculous thing to happen, almost like a plot from the show, that this great show had been cancelled. No, no, no. I mean, it wouldn't even work in a show. Right. The way we got cancelled, because no one would buy it. It would become a mystery for the rest of the series. It's an unsold mystery. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's unsold. It went from uncarmony to unsold. No, but it's this, well, now it might be that person's fault. Right. Who's not there anymore.

1:22:41Right. just hated it. Yeah. It was just a mystery to us, and we both had to deal with it the way you deal with anything you don't understand. Lisa was able to put it over there, and I was, like, personally offended. Quite rightly. I would have tracked down whoever the decision was chasing out of town. But there's nothing to be done. I just thought, ooh, someone made a mistake. Not my mistake, because this was a triumph. We did it. We did such good work. there's nothing to be ashamed of or feel bad about. Yeah, that was the weird thing. We both felt, and because there's two of us, you're not deluded as much.

1:23:19We both looked at each other and said, that was good. What happened? It wasn't like, when you're by yourself, sometimes you can sort of just hear your own self. There was an echo chamber that was going, why we don't get it. But do you think in the end it worked in the show's favor? Yes. Because first of all, you created this huge cult following, People of which I always remember, and we just talked about the show constantly, even when it was off air for 10 years. And then to be able to do two more series 10 years apart, it's such a unique thing. Yes. That must be, how insane is that to do, to be in the middle of that?

1:23:51It became a gift and a high-pressure gift because every 10 years now, it's an event. And it better have been worth the wait and expectation of returning. So that part is scary, honestly. It's also a weird, curious lesson or tonic, because if we had been given what should have happened was just another season, we would have done well and we would have been good. And maybe we would have done another season because television was always, you never know. But because it was taken away, there was an unanswered something that created this energy. So we got to come back and do like the Caesar parade into Rome for a minute.

1:24:37Of course, when we did get invited back to HBO to talk about it, the day we went back to HBO, I couldn't get my parking ticket validated. And I was like, well, that's Valerie. So you're never given a real triumphant ride. There's always a comedy. We also didn't have the full idea until we were in the lobby waiting to be called in. And we just all of a sudden had another thought. And then it was, oh, she's going to be in the Polly G show. We didn't have that. I mean, that is the funny, great thing. Sometimes it just shows up for us out of nowhere. The minute we were at the meeting and lunch and I said the thing about AI, Lisa launched into a monologue as the character in the sitcom, which we just instantly, it was brand new, just wet.

1:25:28And she ended with, so how's that? And as soon as I heard it, I knew that that thing came from somewhere that was solid and we were going to run with it. And the best name for a mediocre sitcom. It's perfect. Absolutely. But even the AI theme ends up being not quite as simple as you might think. It's not just as case of AI is evil and the real human writers are good because the real human writers, some of them, turn out to be, frankly, dickheads. Well, we've experienced that in the show. That is the technical phrase, dickheads. Yeah, right. There were some brilliant guest stars in the show, without spoiling too much, but I particularly was excited to see Andrew Scott, who I'm a huge fan of.

1:26:07Yeah, me too. I mean, when you created that role, did you have him in mind? Would you just think, oh yeah, the casting director go, Andrew Scott? How did that happen? No, I mean, the head of the network was a character that we knew was going to be important and her foil and her friend complicated. as we were writing it. And we never, he's abstract in our heads. And then Andrew said, what did he say? Anything? I like the show. Oh, yeah. Just he was a fan of the show. And I don't know, heard from his agent saying, yeah, he's a fan of the show. So if there's anything, and we went, uh, there is. And we met with him.

1:26:49And he was like, okay, yeah, well, but there's, do you know what I mean? And sent him, it was three scenes. It wasn't just like a hello and something, which I think he was expecting, and then it turned into a recurring role. Yeah, and he just said, yes. Thank God. That was so generous. When somebody calls and says, oh, I'll do your show, we sent him three episodes, and I kept thinking to Lisa, is he going to say, I don't want to do this. I only wanted to say hi. And he's all over the eighth episode, the final one. Yeah, he's all over everything. He has a brilliant scene in that eighth episode, which, again, deepens him, doesn't it?

1:27:24because you see him as a fairly shallow figure, and then you see an insight into him. It was fantastic. Yeah, well, hopefully with the comeback, you always get to see something underneath the thing. So I have to ask, you said this is the third and final season, but 10 years' time, there might be something. If there's an issue, an idea like AI, something we don't even know about yet came up, would you consider it another season? I don't know. Okay, that's something. If we can and have the will. But this is just such a nice package, a trilogy. and it started with an extinction event everyone thought and it's ending with another potential extinction event that probably won't be so isn't that perfect?

1:28:05it felt like it closed and we're really happy that we got to this point it is fantastic thank you congratulations thanks so much for coming to be on the show thank you that was Lisa Kudrow and Michael Badrick King I believe it is now time for review Shall we move on to reviews? Let's do it. Let's move on to reviews. And first up this week, we have The Burbs on Sky and Now. And this is a reimagining of the 1989 Joe Dante film, which had Tom Hanks in there. And this is Jack Whitehall and Kiki Palmer. And they're a couple who move into this kind of insular suburban neighbourhood called Hinkley Hills, only to become ever so slightly obsessed, as you would do, by the dilapidated house across the road and its mysterious new owner.

1:28:47He is, of course, horribly compromised by the fact he knows its star. but nevertheless, tell us about The Burbs, The Boyd. Well, this was interesting because I don't know about you, but The Burbs is one of those films that, it was like 80s, wasn't it? Late 80s, Tom Hanks. I don't think I've ever seen it.

1:29:04Steph:Oh, you should watch it. Yeah, for some reason. It's good. It's fine. Is it? It's fine, yeah. I liked it. Okay. But this feels like one of those situations where they've just taken an IP, you know, an existing IP, which every single, pretty much every other show on TV or film has to have to you can't just create something new do you know what I mean a new format there are no new ideas blah blah blah all that but for me this is like was the film really like this was it so I don't know when you say like this what do you mean the story is different it isn't the same story they do a nice nod to Tom Hanks they do because basically it's about a couple who decide to move to the suburbia from the city right and particularly driven by him played by my good close personal friend, Jack Whitehall.

1:29:55And Kiki Palmer's into it as well. She's kind of maybe slightly a little bit more reluctant, but she's into it. Then they arrive and there's this like decrepit almost house on the other side of the road from where they're cul-de-sac. And there's like creepy things going on. And her and her, this couple, this lesbian couple kind of investigate a bit. And there's a grumpy man who doesn't say much. And it's all a bit weird. But then... That's an extraordinary synopsis, by the way. Thank you. Yeah. That wasn't a great synopsis.

1:30:20Steph:Everyone's getting marked today. It's really nice. So all of that I was kind of expecting. I was vaguely aware it's got a supernatural, ghosty element to it, maybe, or some kind of comedy horror element to it. Comedy horror, yes. Comedy horror. And a mismatched couple a little bit, I don't know. But what I wasn't expecting is, by the end of the first episode, it kind of addresses things like racism. All the way through the first episode, it does. Yeah, but particularly it builds up to the moment there's a scene where she's outside this this decrepit crumbling mansion and it is like a critique of you know racist incidents that have happened where people police arrive and they assume that she's doing something wrong and it's getting white police two white policemen and i'm like hold on this is a dissection of modern america's issues of race and you know um class a little bit but particularly race and i just was not expecting this thing to happen in the middle throughout and particularly by the end of a seemingly frothy, comedic, horror thing.

1:31:23So I just thought it was completely unexpected and I thought it was rather impressive in the end from that point of view. It's not what I would call a searingly... No. It's quite broad. And also that is a scenario I would say we've seen many, many times, which is the interracial couple or black couple moves into a white suburban neighbourhood and everyone looks at them askance. I mean, God, we've reviewed about seven shows like that on this podcast. Have we? Yeah.

1:31:47Steph:I think I would say that actually what they're doing quite cleverly is they're kind of weaving in a bit of a social commentary about the tie. I think it's quite clever because there is a point where a librarian looks at Kiki Palmer's baby and refers to it as a mocker. Yes, yes. And she's horrified. Oh, completely. I guess I wasn't... You're right. So there have been shows that have done this kind of thing before, but it becomes almost the subject of the show. Oh, yeah. and in a not in a yeah of course not in a kind of like forced overly serious way in a very in a very light way but actually that's probably the most effective way of doing it of what it's doing and it's almost like to go I was talking about the Trojan Horse of you know Elizabeth Moss's stuff where she often often talks about you know genre pieces that smuggle in themes and this feels a bit like that to me so I have no idea whether the original had anything like that at all going on in it but this feels very much the point of it in a way and I think that's interesting.

1:32:44I think Jack and her are nice together. I think they have a kind of nice... I'm trying to avoid the word frothy, but I keep coming back to the word frothy. They have a nice jolly, jolly, fun relationship that you can see why they're together. It's a sense of humour-based thing where they kind of make fun of each other and have... They're buddies. They've got a buddy marriage. Yeah, exactly. And she's got a fun brother that she talks to who kind of is very, is kind of camping over the top.

1:33:14Steph:Yeah, is living in her apartment. Living in her apartment, her lavish apartment in the city. So I enjoyed it. And I enjoyed it more than I expected to, mainly because of that whole thing of what it's dealing with, in a kind of clever, smart, or seemingly throwaway way. But I wouldn't say, I didn't get to the end of the first episode and think, oh, this has to go to the top of my list of things I have to carry on watching. And I think there were eight episodes of it. It's quite a lot, quite, again, in evidence. Right. Oh, God. I don't know how it's going to sustain those eight episodes. Well, this is the concern, isn't it?

1:33:48Because it has that classic feel of, we have got an IP, we are now going to bludgeon this story to death over the course of eight interminable hours. I don't know if that's actually what's going to happen here, but it doesn't, and I know that there's a murder mystery at the heart of this, which is, I guess, a thread that's going to run through all the episodes. And to be fair, it might sustain that very well. I think on the base of this first episode, it concerned me that this doesn't have enough to it to support eight hours I could be proved wrong but I had that concern no same I think have you watched eight episodes?

1:34:20Steph:no I haven't watched episodes I think the I think the episode length is too long I really enjoyed it I think Jack Whitehall and I'm not compromised because he's not my best personal friend but I do like Jack Whitehall so do I actually I really do and what he's really good at is being Jack Whitehall and I think he's Jack Whitehall in this. I meant to mention this story in my inane summary of the show, which is one of the best creative decisions, I'm absolutely serious, is to let him have his own accent. Oh, God, yes. You know, and for everyone else listening, by the way, if you're a producer or a writer or a showrunner or whatever, just stop having people doing American accents who are British, posh British people.

1:35:01It rarely ever works and that decision was absolutely nice.

1:35:04Steph:And that's, he is, It's basically Jack Whitehall moves to the suburbs with Kiki Palmer. Kind of also playing a song. Yeah, and Kiki Palmer, and that's exactly what I was going to say. So that brings an incredible authenticity to it because you're not having to get over Jack Whitehall. And as soon as he opened his mouth, I was like, thank God he's not got an American accent. He's playing someone who's really not too far from who he is. And obviously he's just had a new baby as well. So you're kind of, I felt, like I said, the authenticity was there. Kiki Palmer, they've allowed Kiki Palmer to be who she is.

1:35:35Steph:and I think that again you can you've made the point that you make you can understand why they're married those two could be married and it would work because they're allowed to be who they really are and that's wonderful yeah I think the episode was too long and I God don't know what they're going to do I totally agree what you can do is seven more hours of this I found it yeah it feels like it should be a half hour show doesn't it yeah it really does I found it you know it was titillating I really liked titillating it was titillating that's quite the word I wasn't expecting that one. I was like, oh, this is fun.

1:36:06Steph:Hot Jack Wild game. No, it was. I really, yeah, I liked it. It's definitely not, like, I've got to watch the rest of them. Yeah, it's a fun. It's a bit of a wrong, isn't it? Yeah, it's a fun place to hang out, but it's not, I don't think it's going to, you know, I don't think it's going to win any awards, but it was nice. It's just, you know, to use James as one of James, it was fine. It was fine. It was fine. But also titillating. Just titillating. Titillating.

1:36:35Steph:I liked it but I didn't love it I think that's a reasonable reaction to it it is fine it's not terrible at all it may admirably sustain the eight episode run who knows but yeah that's certainly a concern at this stage watch it don't watch it you know it's fine either way I am absolutely here for Jack Whitehall's burgeoning Hollywood acting career though I think it's fantastic he's inherently entertaining As long as they let Jack Whitehall be Jack Whitehall. Did you see Malice? No, I didn't see that. Did you ever finish Malice? No. Malice was really good. He did play a different character. He played a very dark take.

1:37:13That was the real stretch for him. This is not a stretch for him. This is him just being himself. Yeah, completely.

1:37:21Steph:Okay, well, let Jack Whitehall be is the moral of this story, isn't it? And then it will be just fine. The Burbs, then, which screened, I want to say on Peacock earlier this year in the US, but it's now on Sky and Now. When, Boydie? Sky 1, and now Wednesday, the 1st of April. April Fool's Day. April Fool's Day. No less, at 9pm. But I think it'll be on demand from Sky and Now subscribers as well. Next up, we have Stefan Goloszewski's latest show. This is Babies on BBC One, and it deals with the trauma of pregnancy loss. As Siobhan Cullen and Papa Esiedu's Lisa and Stephen deal with the fallout of multiple miscarriages, you are going to want to strap in for this one.

1:37:59Steph, you and your new BFF, Elizabeth Moss, chatted about this one at some length after the interview.

1:38:06Steph:Yes. So it's only fair that you share your thoughts with everyone else and not just with Elizabeth Moss. No, not just with... Okay, I am just going to say now, right, for anyone, I'm going to be serious now because this is very... This was... I'm going to try and get through this whole review without crying. And I know we're not a particularly serious podcast, But this was what I watched six hours of. And what I would say to Stefan Goloszewski is if somebody could have cut open my heart and my mind and the lived experience of my lived experience and put it on screen in front of me, that is what he has done.

1:38:48Steph:This was hugely, I can't talk about this without talking about this is hugely personal to me because I've lived every single thing in this show. So we're not going to cry because it's unprofessional, but if you have had any experience of trying to get pregnant, unexplained infertility, pregnancy loss, being surrounded by people who are getting pregnant when you're not getting pregnant, be forewarned that this show is going to hit so hard you will cry from beginning to end and I this morning when I got in I said to Boyd I'm going to show you a picture because I took a picture of myself and when I'd watched the finale of this show and Boyd was like oh Jesus yeah we need to put out a warning about this so uh I have one child it took me five years to have this child I eventually had to have IVF I've been through this situation and I can't quite believe this masterful portrayal of the extreme emotion that comes with trying to conceive a child and failing and losing and it's this is such a gift there's such a gift of a show I can't I'm tearing up I'm so sorry it's such a gift of a show and it's something that happens to so many people.

1:40:15Steph:And unless you live that experience, it's so hard to explain. But he's done this. I was saying to Boyd, was he originally a playwright? Because it feels like a play to me. It's beautiful. It's subtle. It hits every single piece of me. And I know it will for so many other people out there who've experienced it. and the actors are perfection. It's just an incredible must watch for anyone who, if you want to try and understand, if you have anyone in your life and you want to try and understand what this is like, you will understand it. I want to talk about, do you remember we reviewed a show called Beth?

1:40:59Steph:We had a show called Beth and it was a show and it had a mixed race and fertile couple in it. And I talked a lot about that because I found it ended up being something supernatural in that. And the thing that I found really upsetting about that is that they'd got so many things right in it and I really didn't want it to end up sci-fi because they'd done a brilliant portrayal of their infertility. And this, I mean, this is just, this is the best portrayal of this kind of struggle that I think we will ever see because it's masterful. This is a masterpiece of television about this subject. And this is a piece of television that I didn't know.

1:41:45Steph:I can't believe. I don't know how they've done this. I don't know how they've managed to get the emotion so spot on. I mean, like I said, I know how it feels and it was like watching my life on screen. It was like watching my life on screen and I know it will be for so many women and so many men. They get the male position completely right, I think. They've got, there's another, there's two other characters in there who are having not fertility issues, but there's issues with being a father and issues with other issues of loss. It's sensational. It's sensational. It is beyond sensational for me.

1:42:26Steph:And I would like to just say thank you, Stefan Goloszewski, for doing something that is so important. And now I'm going to have to stop because I'm going to cry because I loved it and it was wonderful. Yeah, it should be like a trigger warning. It should be a trigger warning. I'm just going to... Yeah, because it might be... I mean, my question is, it is absolutely devastating. It's devastating. I watched the first two and it's relentlessly devastating. Can I just tell you what I did when I watched this? So what I would say to people is, if you are triggered by this and you have had this experience maybe do what I did I watched the first episode I cried my eyes out and then I watched the last episode because I needed to know what happened and then I watched I couldn't cope with it and then I needed to know and then because it was a lived experience for me and so then I watched the rest of it so I would say my question to you though is the reason why I think the trigger warning is so important in this is that you have got a wonderful daughter I have and there will be people out there who haven't got kids that's the thing that made me cry because it's all the people yeah because it's all the people that stories don't end in the way that they want them to oh my god what is wrong with me it is that and if you've been through that lived experience you never stop thinking about those people you never stop thinking about those people who are having I sat there watching it thinking, oh my god I know a lot of people who've been through similar journeys to you and ended up having IVF etc etc but yeah, there are people who and I say, I do worry it does me worry, but we have to separate you have to separate that, I think it's I'm sure there will be triggers I hope so, because you need it and the thing is, the IVF thing and there's brilliant scenes in there where they're confronted with doctors and women and men who've had this experience, well doctors who just going, oh yeah, you've had a couple of miscarriages, it's fine, we don't worry about it when you're 34, and it's so common and it's so misunderstood, and when you have got unexplained infertility, you feel so alone, and you feel like no one understands you or no one cares, but you're so right.

1:44:44Steph:I do hope they put some trigger warnings on it, because... Oh, they've got to, they will. But what I want to say is, though, on top of all of that, is that this is Stefan Goloszewski, the creator, he did him and her with Russell Tovey and which was brilliant. Then he did Mum with Leslie Manber, which is what Elizabeth Moss was talking about after the recording of our podcast that you were talking about before, James, that she was chatting to us about. She absolutely loved it and loves Leslie Manber quite rightly, and that was brilliant. Then there was Marriage with Sean Bean and Nicola Walker, which was more serious.

1:45:16He's kind of getting more and more serious as well, and this is the point I'm trying to make, because Him and Her was a pretty broad comedy, really, out-and-out comedy. And by the time he got to Marriage, which I'm sure we reviewed on the show, That had a lot of devastating moments because that was about a marriage that had become kind of calcified and, you know, kind of just...

1:45:33Steph:I'd love to know his method. What is his method? He's so brilliant at... He's brilliant at lots of things. But he's so brilliant at kind of adding a little bit to making things very realistic and authentic. And not going for the easy... Even back in the days of him and her, not going for the easy quick gag. but depicting kind of people who are often at the edge, on the edge and at the edge of various issues. So the sister character in him was so extreme. She was this horrendous, bullying, controlling character. And he's got a real eye for that kind of people who just kind of go too far and don't know when to stop and don't know when to pull back and kind of just be a normal, decent human being.

1:46:15And I'm fascinated by the other couple. So you've got Papaya Sieda and Siobhan Khan as the two main couples. And by the way, everything that I was saying about the couple, Kiki Palmer and Jack Whitehall in The Burbs, go ten times more. And these two have such a brilliant, like, joshing, bantering, she's that horrible word, relationship, don't they? The dialogue between them is fantastic. And it's almost like you feel they're going to pull through whatever happens because their love for each other and their friendship is so brilliantly drawn, isn't it? It's so well drawn. They kick out of each other in such a brilliant way.

1:46:49And those performances are, as you say, genius.

1:46:51Steph:I honestly don't know how they've done it. it's just so brilliant but I'm fascinated by the other couple the secondary couple who are his best mate Dave played by Jack Bannon and his new girlfriend Amanda played by Charlotte Riley and they are weird and I mean I've only watched two episodes I haven't watched the whole thing but I'm fascinated I'm as fascinated to see how they play out because there's a restaurant scene oh my god I died a thousand deaths during that scene that's like that for you it's so funny you mention it because I was thinking about you whether you were going to watch that scene and I thought this is Because it was so unbearably critical.

1:47:23Steph:It was unbearable. It was an awkwardness. It was so awkward, and they were such balance together. And he, so he's Dave, but brilliantly played by Jack Ballin, by the way. He's such a, he's just got this weird thing going on, and you can't quite put your finger on it. He's got a kid. He's just uncomfortable in his own skin. He's really uncomfortable. He's uncomfortable with the kids, and he can't deal with that, and his ex. He's really uncomfortable with this woman who, and she's amazing. She, like, won't, they have sex season a bit, and then she won't acknowledge his existence at all and rolls over to the other side of the bed and just literally puts her headphones and ignores him and he's like, what am I doing?

1:47:58What's going on?

1:47:59Steph:But then you find out later on why that is, obviously. It's amazing what happens between those two. She's clearly been through stuff as well. But they are just, he's just really amazing at creating these kind of characters. They are seemingly everyday, normal in quotes, people you might meet. But actually they've just got something slightly weird often going on. and I guess what he's saying is a little bit is every seemingly normal person has stuff going on you don't know about that's the genius of this because that's what it is it's like you have you carry on with your normal life one of the things that he did which I really loved is he he keeps doing this scene with Siobhan's character where she goes into work every day and she taps in every day it's so subtle it's so brilliant it's so clever and the receptionist woman at first joshes with her and then Yeah, it gets colder and colder.

1:48:49Steph:Yeah, and I was like, this is my life. This is my life. Like, it's just those kinds of touches. I was like, how has he done this? I'd love to know who he'd spoken to. I'd love to know how he managed to achieve such greatness. There's something so raw and intimate about it. And it's like, it'll be the moments where you see her doing something quite pedestrian and normal. and then this sort of avalanche of grief just out of nowhere just wells up and it's completely all-consuming and she just falls to pieces. And it might be something like picking up a cup or making toast or something. And this is the waves of grief and you see her just really struggling.

1:49:30And then what I thought, and you've touched on it, is that he doesn't know what to do. He doesn't know how to stem the tide. He doesn't know how to make it better. All he can do, he tries and sometimes it works and sometimes it's a little bit ill thought out. But there's nothing he can do because it's like, it's her whole, I mean, you don't need me to tell you this, I'm not going to mansplain this to you, but like, Oh, go on. It's her whole identity, isn't it?

1:49:52Steph:Use a long word that I don't understand. Go on. But it's not just about children, it's about who she is and who she is as a woman and her identity and, you know, societal presence, so much going on. And also, you cannot get away from other people's babies. No. And she keeps saying in, this is not going to change us, this is not going to change this. And what's great is there is an episode that addresses his feelings because there's a brilliant bit where they go to the doctors and they're in the car and the doctor's been a dick and then she's like, and he's like, yeah, I can't believe he said that.

1:50:23Steph:He has got no idea what you've been through. And he's just on his phone and she turns to him and she says, what we've been through. And it's a really powerful moment and I can remember having those moments. And it's just, like you say, everything, it is that moment. You have to get on with your life. You have to get on with life and like you've touched on, no one knows what's going on behind the scenes. Nobody knows. You make assumptions about, you know, everybody you meet and you've got no idea what's happening but it is those moments and I'm sure many people listening who have been through these kinds of situations had those moments.

1:50:52Steph:It is that avalanche of, you don't know when it's going to happen but something really, seemingly insignificant happened and then you're like, you're in your boots. You're like, I've just got to go. There's bits where she has to run out of family gatherings and stuff like that and it's just, it's done and it's so not, it's not overacted. It's not over, it's just pitched perfect it's just I think it's also not just about that which is what's great about it it's about kind of these characters he always has people eating and preparing food and drink there's a lot of making of tea and toasting sandwiches and eating sandwiches in bed it's the mundanity of normal life somehow making all these people seem unbelievably real even down to the there's a bit where they're going back into their flat and someone is trying to deliver something and it's a labouring scene and he's like, can you sign for 806?

1:51:47It takes a picture.

1:51:48Steph:The genius that it takes to put in those kinds of scenes and the pacing of it was perfect. And you're right, because it's not just about this. It's about their life in its entirety. And if I haven't said it before, it's a masterpiece. It's an absolute masterpiece. Thank you so much for making this. Well, we should get you interviewing. I need to meet him he's a great guy he's brilliant Babies then Monday BBC One 30th of March 9pm and I'm assuming it'll all be on the iPlayer apologies for the tears guys no don't apologise I thought you got through it I thought I got through it I thought I was going to have a real blub I did say to you is only when I start talking about it that you've lost it to be fair we all feel like that it's fine Yeah.

1:52:39Finally, this week, we have season two of Jonathan Tropper's suburban crime series, Your Friends and Neighbours, which continues the story of Jon Hamm's coop. And he's a finance bro who gives up the life of high-rolling money management to essentially rob his neighbours. This season adds James Marsden to the cast as Ash, a billionaire bellend. And speaking of billionaire bellends, let's hear about this one from Boyd. Steady. Steady on. yes this is the second series of a show that i i enjoyed a lot i would say season season one um if i had one again it was went on it was a bit long for me went on was it eight or nine maybe even episodes there about it was pretty epic and what's interesting one of my first thoughts about this is they kind of summarize they have the first scene apart from the flashback scene so he episode one of season one started with him at the bottom of the stairs next to a corpse Jon Hamm's character in a device that you so delight in my favourite device of starting at the big scene the big happening and then flashing back however many weeks early I think it was four weeks early or whatever but then it had the you got to know him through a scene in a bar if you remember I'm looking at I'm not sure if you watched the first season I didn't watch the first season well there's a scene in a bar where he flirts with a woman and they turn out to be colleagues and that turns out to have huge ramifications but they almost replicate that scene at the beginning of this episode.

1:54:06Steph:I thought you were talking about this one. No, so he's at a bar, this time he's at a bar in a hotel, in a lavish hotel, where his ex-wife and family are staying and he is looking at his exchanger's glances with a woman, but then she comes in, his ex-wife comes in to cock block, if you like, and they have a kind of really funny, interesting, open discussion about their state of their relationship and their, you know, etc. Will they ever be tempted to go back together and have sex with each other, etc. and I think one of the real strengths of the show is that underlying the strength of the show for me is that the whole idea, the whole device of him living in this lavish community like this, it's a fictional community, but it's kind of like Long Island meets the Hamptons, that kind of area where it's set with huge houses and gated behind gates and gated communities, just lots of really rich, privileged, annoying people.

1:54:56It's almost like White Lotus type people, but all at home, in their homes.

1:55:00Steph:After the holidays. Exactly, when they get back. But it's almost like that, and him just suddenly deciding on a whim to kind of start stealing stuff from people, stealing, you know, jewellery and cash and whatever from his neighbours. It's almost like by the by, because it's like a character study of him and his family, and the kind of people, their friends and neighbours indeed, hence the title of the show. And this point was made, when I was in the Apple event I went to in Santa Monica that I may have mentioned repeatedly and will happily mention every single episode of the podcast from now until next year's hopefully return of that event they talked about how they just want he John Haynes just wanted like a juicy after you know having Mad Men one of the greatest TV characters of all time in my opinion one of the greatest shows of all time yeah where did you go from there where did you go from there but he's like he got this script from Jonathan Topper and he's like oh this is this is what I want this is like because he's done a lot of he did he was in the morning show as I was going to say this is a little bit like him his actual life out of the morning show kind of way.

1:56:02Yeah, you could say it that way. Yeah, because he played like an Elon Musk-esque figure. He's more of a kind of normal everyday guy in this. But I think they do, I think it is a fascinating character even though he's a normal person but just as someone the temptations of life especially when he was, you know, he lost his job, you know, he's divorcing his wife, his kids hate him, not hate him but, you know, they kind of make fun of him almost and it had that middle life crisis thing going on but managed to make it less cliched than that often is and the character very believable and real and I think that all carries on this is my long way to say into this second season and I think the addition of James Marsden James Marsden, thank you is very clever as well because he's like what they're all aspiring to he's the richest guy in this community of rich people and he buys the biggest house in the area it's like a castle isn't it like he throws a party at the end of the first episode

1:57:01Steph:oh property porn's great in this the property porn's extraordinary and he is like the Great Gatsby of our time I think they explicitly mention the Great Gatsby and I think Jon Hamm's character points out that it doesn't end well necessarily but just the fact they're all enthralled to him and he's flirty and he's like kind of like an Elon Musk figure but not a complete sociopath yeah yet I mean I don't know I've only watched the first episode you've watched the whole thing haven't you yeah he's also I can't wait to hear what you think so I don't know what happens with this character but he gives the whole thing a whole new impetus and makes it even more riveting and interesting and intriguing for me than it was to start with.

1:57:35So yeah, I'm fully on board. I think it's a great show. And everyone in it's really good. The cast is really good. James Martin's really interesting, his character. And yes. Okay.

1:57:43Steph:I'll be brief because I know you've watched it also. You've got a lot to say. I would say Jon Hamm is inherent, he's got a great ability of being, whatever he plays, even in Mad Men, he's kind of inherently likable, even though he's an arsehole. Do you know what he plays? I just always like his characters. So I love him. I love him in The Morning Show. I love the character who plays in The Morning Show. I love, obviously, Mad Men. I hadn't watched... I'm going to go back and watch the first season of this because I really enjoyed it. This is a great character for him. I love Amanda Peet as well.

1:58:12Steph:I think she's brilliant as his ex-wife. They're so believable as ex-partners. Again, I didn't watch the first season so I can't speak to how it all panned out. But Olivia Munn, so she's also in it. she's great. I think the whole thing, it's lavish, isn't it? It's lavish. It's living in that rich, suburban American world. I think it's a nice novel idea. Very much like Luton. It's very much like Luton. It's how I live. It's Luton now. It's the kind of party I throw, you know, with my paddling pool. One thing I did want to make mention of is I really enjoyed the amount of male nudity in this. I wasn't expecting you to say that.

1:58:54Back to titillation again.

1:58:55Steph:Yes, because I tell you what, so there's a sauna scene, yes. There's a lot of bottoms. There's a lot of sequences. What was the last show you said there were lots of bottoms in? We did have a bottom show. It's a bottom count. Yeah, but then we had that interesting discussion about how we're showing a lot of male bums and a lot of male nudity, and we're not seeing as much female nudity, and this was a great example of that. So you see a lot of Jon Hamm's bottom in action. Oh, Jon Hamm's bottom, yeah. Yeah, lots of bottom. I was thinking, who do we see in, whose bottom is a bit jerk? Yeah, Jon Hamm multiple times when he's, you know, got a lot of, you know, things going on.

1:59:28Steph:Anyway, and the other thing I wanted to say is I think that you, James Marsden, put him in anything and he makes it ten times better. Yeah, he's got anything. He's very, very good, yes. Over to you, James, who have watched all of it. I mean, I think I've banged on about this previously. There's something about the character work in this, I think, that resonated with me. it's funny like this season doesn't have that hook that through line which the first one does which is there's been a murder who committed the murder and then this whole setup of he gets screwed over and he loses his job and then he is forced to essentially pay for his divorce and everything else to resort to a life of crime right and so he he teams up with amy carrera's character elena and she is like a cleaner so she becomes like the the person who gives him the tip off of where he should roll and he robs them but he's doing it because but i think one of the things that really appeals about the first season is that it's how much can be heaped upon his shoulders because within his community he's not rich like he's he's kind of mid-rich which means a lot of richer people than him right and but it's just like his wife is sleeping with his best friend they've now gone off and they're together living in his house so he's in an apartment while his wife and his best friend are in his house with his kids in the first season right and he loses his job because his boss screws him over and it's just like there's so much unfairness going on and he shoulders it with such grace and with this sort of real hangdog energy and yet he learns he's actually quite good at lifting things and it's really well done because he'll find out where he's going but he's always going for something specific and they always do this little fact breakdown it's really well done and they talk in a very humorous way with this voiceover of what the thing he's stealing is, why it's funny, you know, why he's stealing it, what he's going to do with it and how he kind of dabbles in this world of crime when he's completely ill-suited to it is really fun.

2:01:12But it is hooked on this murder. This second season does away with that. And I actually think it's nice because the second season has more confidence because they're like, do you know what? We had this great setup for it, but what this is about is character. And in this second season, they're like, we have enough faith in these characters that we don't need a murder. We don't need a cold open. We're just going to accept that you love spending time with these people and you get to do more of it. And I'm really glad that Olivia Munn's character is still in it as much as she was in the first one.

2:01:38I think Amanda Peet's character has an incredible kind of menopause arc in this which is really just like beautifully rendered.

2:01:44Steph:Yeah, it is. That's really well done. Yeah, and it's so much fun this argument she's having with her neighbour. Hun Lee is in this. Hun Lee, who is magnificent in fucking everything, but he is essentially Jonathan Tropper's I think good luck charm. Like he's in Banshee, he's in Sea, he's in everything Jonathan Tropper has, he's in Warrior. Love him as the financial manager in this. But it builds very nicely on the dynamic of the first season by adding James Marsden as a wild card. and I think he works really really well and he's an excellent four because you're like is this guy a psychopath like it's extraordinary James Marsden just always looks like he's coming and he's just having everything he's in he's just like I'm coming in for the fun I'm going to pepper some James Marsden magic on everything he's great he's really really good so yeah I loved this second season as much as I loved the first one and I'm looking forward to the third season it is a great great show if you have Apple TV Plus or Apple TV is it is now called then watch it you always call it Apple TV I do it's a plus to me it is a plus that's okay for me I think so.

2:02:37But this lands on the 3rd of April. Correct. Yes. Yeah, 2026. 2026. What else is out this week, Boyd? What have we missed? Well, um... Just turns to... Joy Boyd making as much noise as humanly possible. You know, this is what I'm here for. This is my favourite part of the show. Boyd's ruffling and clunking and thunking.

2:02:56Steph:Just because it's the end, but because Boyd does his shocked voice. Well, fans of high-class reality TV will want to know that Race Across the World is back on Thursday. I love Race Across the World. Who doesn't love it? Actually, I do like that. So I do like a reality show. It's fantastic. There's a show called Helen Harper on ITVX on Wednesday which shows Mark Ruffalo who's been busy because we did Task recently. I'm here for Ruffalo. Yeah. James has got a funny look on his face. Is this a returning series? As in, is this series two or is this just turning up on Terrestrial? Because I don't think that's a new show.

2:03:30Oh, maybe it's just turning up on ITVX. It's not even It's going to do a number crunch on it. Streaming service. Grace was back yesterday on, which is the Brighton set crime saga based on the Peter James books with John Sim. But yeah, that started yesterday. Oh, there's The Teacher on Channel 5, James' favourite. This is a third entry in their anthology of dramas loosely tied together by their theme of being set in a school and being a teacher. This stars Victoria Hamilton, who's always brilliant, as a teacher. She's kind of like the veteran figure who gets annoyed by the pupils being, in quotes, heavily quotes, woke.

2:04:05and there's a death oh that sounds good yeah it's interesting I think it'll be interesting okay

2:04:09Steph:Helen Harper is not a new show but it is okay yeah it's just January 2025 show but it's on but it's new to the UK sorry new to the UK for this yes and there's a Spanish show called if it's Tuesday it must be murder on Disney Plus on Tuesday which looks very good that's kind of like a kind of I think it's like a whodunity type thing looks a bit white lotus-y is it a bit like murders only murders in the building no I think maybe I think it's a bit more white lotus-y I think alright that's all I have on my list but there might be other stuff that James has got no I don't think so I think you've covered a lot of it there obviously Star Wars more Shadow Lord was one that Steph was looking forward to talking about well I'm going to watch it anyway I don't know what we're going to do on Pilot Plus this week we'll have to wrangle that with Kay but crucially I am off I'm not off I'm just not doing the podcast because Kay and I have a job yet for two weeks and when I come back I'm going to be 45 wow I know youngster And to celebrate your birthday, you can bring me a cookie.

2:05:07Steph:I will bring you a cookie. I will bring you one. I'll bring you one next week. With a little candle in it. I'm in next week. I'll come down and bring you one. Fabulous. Well, we hope you enjoyed this particularly titillating episode of the Pilot TV podcast. Please do leave us a five-star rating if you haven't already. Please do subscribe to Pilot Plus if you haven't already. It's vital. Vital, I tell you. And you can do that at empire.supportingcast.fm. It's only£3.49 a month. Here is my weekly reminder that we need to do Pick of the Week. Oh, yes, a pick of the week. I've forgotten to see a pick of the week.

2:05:36Every time. Steph, what could possibly be your pick of the week?

2:05:40Steph:Verb. No, of course it is. Please watch it, but watch and know you will cry. Babies. Yeah, yeah. It's traumatic, but worth it. Oh, you're voting for babies over your friend? Yes, I'm voting for babies because it's... Do you think he couldn't vote for babies sitting across from me? I'm afraid of Steph is really what it comes down to. I'm afraid of Steph. That's obviously true. I'm obsessed with your friends and neighbours, it is true, but Babies is extraordinary television Babies is the only thing and we kind of touched on this but it's a lot it's a lot and it's borderline too traumatic for me but it's very very good absolutely and it is but it is worth saying again definitely go into it knowing it is so raw it is going to traumatise a lot of people yeah I think people will be okay I just don't want people to be really upset because you will be they should watch it as well they should definitely watch it please we made that clear as well.

2:06:32Steph:Please, yes. Okay. Fantastic. We'll be back in your ears on Thursday with Pilot Plus. We don't know what, but it will be unmissable. So do subscribe. And otherwise, we'll be back next week. And next week, oh, what have we got lined up for you next week? I can tell you from a guest point of view, we will have Hugh Bonneville and Hugh Skinner's two Hughes. Yes. Two Hughes. Yes. On next week podcast for 2026. But crucially, we will also have Noah Wiley and Catherine Lanassa, assuming I don't completely cock it up. You won't. You won't. believe in yourself come on but that's it we're done we're finished we're all good see you in two weeks see you in two weeks have a good break you traitors traitors leaving us part timer maybe part timer okay let's remember I'm in a job share with my dear beloved Kay that's true alright she's just coming back to do her part of the share fine oh and then crucially you're off and then I'm off yes I'm taking a week off don't even no and then it's me and Bea we're trying to wrangle it'd be a dot and apple just the two of you oh Jesus anyway look more happy about it No, I'm delighted to be doing it with you.

2:07:31It's not that. I'm just worried about how, you know, running the desk and writing the script.

2:07:34Steph:Kate knows how to do it. We'll get her in. Okay. All right. You don't need me. It's fine. Pilot out.