Black Rabbit, Gen V, and Juice. With guests Andrew Lincoln and David Ireland

13:15Kay:Lady Edith gets a lay of the smack down on a cad. Oh, I thought you meant on Mary, which I'd be even more delighted about. Well, you know, it's interesting. Their dynamic, I think, has evolved to such an extent. Because you get a little bit of the old Mary-Edith dynamic in there, and then it sort of writes itself, which I quite like.

13:29Andrew Lincoln:Lady Mary is really the main character in this story. I'm quite right. She always is.

13:34Kay:She's the best character, though. But what's great about Lady Mary, and what has always been the case with Lady Mary, is she is basically Violet. Yes. She's Violet. She's 100 % young Violet. So even though you don't have the dowager countess, she basically is that. I'm so glad.

13:50Andrew Lincoln:By the way, I also got to interview Alan Leach and Hugh Bonneville for The Empire film podcast, because obviously Chris Hewitt needed someone who watched the TV show. and he could only find me. And I was on the plane. And he was on the plane. I am delighted. Look, he had to stick that in, James. Yeah, exactly. You little shit. Not even first choice to do a TV-related. No, oh, Boyd. No, it's fine. I don't give a shit. Listen. I don't give a shit. You're always my first choice. You've got an audience with Lord Grantham. No, it was wonderful. It was wonderful, yeah. Last question before we have to move on.

14:18Yeah. How smug is Bates in this? Because that's my benchmark. He's always smug.

14:24Kay:He is smug. It's not that he's smug. is that he has resting smug face. So I don't think he's like a smug character, but he has that kind of expression. No, he is quite smug, James. You think? The man went to prison. I think the fact that you can't detect it is quite telling.

14:40Andrew Lincoln:I think Carson is smugger, though. I think Carson's always been wonderful. Carson is lovely, and I won't hear a word against him.

14:45Kay:Don't you come for Carson. I'm not coming for... Charlie is my man. Oh, all right. Okay, steady. In your dreams. Well, anyway. What have you been watching, James? What am I watching other than Downton Abbey, the grand finale, which obviously I enjoyed enormously. I have been pressing on with the morning show as well. I will have finished that by the time we review it on this week's Pilot Plus 4. It's heavily embarked. But what I've been doing a lot of this week is re-watching Alien Earth. So I re-watched a ton of Alien Earth. Wait, didn't we just review it? Several weeks ago, yes.

15:14Andrew Lincoln:Yeah, but they do spoiler special chats, not involving me on the Empire podcast. That's right.

15:19Kay:So our Boyd-free spoiler special chats, although I'm not on the first one either. I'm in the second one. And we will be doing a third one. I think we have to stop talking about it. And we should mention, because I don't think I mentioned it on the regular podcast, but by popular demand, the Alien Earth spoiler specials are now available on the Pilot Plus feed. Well done, James. There we go. We fought the good fight. Yeah. And was it a fight? A little bit. Okay. We wrested custody away from Empire and now we have them on our feed as well.

15:43Andrew Lincoln:James and Chris had a naked wrestling match. We did. Like in Women in Love. Yeah. With Oliver Reed and Alan Bates. They recreated that. Listen, did I not tell you I walked 25 minutes in for this? Not for that visual. I didn't come for this. Sorry.

15:54Kay:Yeah, she's broken out in a swear. It's unclear whether it's to do with the walk. Anyway, so I did that because I had a big old 45-minute chat with Noah Hawley last night. Of course you did. Where we got into all of the plotty stuff for Alien Earth, and that's going to be on the third Alien Earth Spoiler Special. No, that's quite a good coup. Well done. He was great. Did you organize it, James? Did I organize it? No, Chris set it up. Wow, I set it all up. But yeah, it was a lot of fun. So Noah Hawley wasn't watching the NTAs? No, he wasn't. He wasn't watching the NTAs. Just checking. I'm sure I dragged him away from them, and then he went straight back.

16:22Kay:But yeah, that was a lot of fun. We had a chat about the musical Needle Drops that he put in there. Yeah, there's some really good Needle Drops. For people of a certain age. Yes. To which his answer was, I see you. I see you. But yeah, it was a lot of fun. But do keep an eye out for that. That will be appearing on the Empire Sports Special Feed and indeed the Pilot Plus Feed very soon. Well, when the finale airs, let's be honest, which is in a couple of weeks. Why did you whisper that? Is it a secret? Yeah. Shh, don't tell anyone. Oh God, no, stop. But no, mainly I've been playing video games more than watching TV this week.

16:51Kay:so yeah sorry good to mix it up yeah I thought so I've been a samurai running around feudal Japan of course you have yeah exactly that so that is what we've been watching now let me have a look at the clock and see if we have time for a listener question go on let's do a quick one Kay okay so this is from Dion from West Wales who says hi all first of all I have to say thank you for all your recommendations and reviews I pass the ones that aren't my cup of tea onto my partner and she enjoys the recommendations of different things my question is how do you deal with recommendations from other people when it comes to TVs, TV films, books, etc.

17:25I find it hard to take on people's suggestions, but I always give them. Keep up the great podcast.

17:32Kay:That probably says a lot more about him than it does. But I don't know. That's quite a good one. I feel like you'd have the same reaction. So I don't ever take book recommendations from anyone ever. Apart from occasionally Helen O 'Hara. She's the only person, even then, frankly, our taste doesn't always a lie. Well, because I only read pretty much fantasy novels. That's pretty much all I read. And I have a pretty long sofa list of fantasy novels I need to read. Yeah, we've seen your bookshelf. Right. And the new Jay Kristoff is out very, very soon. Empire of the Dorm. Very excited about that.

18:00Kay:Ooh, what? Take my word for it. It's going to be wonderful. Third part in the trilogy. So I don't necessarily... But also, like, if someone recommends you a TV show, you can pop it on for five minutes, see what it's like. Someone recommends you a book, that's a big time commitment. And I think people's book tastes are quite personal. So, yeah, I don't like book recommendations. But I would argue you could give it a few chapters and see if you got rid of it. So I can't do that. If I start a book, I have to finish it. But you can stop a series? Yeah. That's weird. I know. So inconsistent. I can't, no, genuinely, I don't like to stop books.

18:28Kay:I've done it on occasion, but it makes me very anxious and I don't like to do it. Okay, well, nor should you have to then. Thank you. Get you into it. Do you take TV series recommendations? I mean, you don't watch films, but do you take TV series recommendations? I do, actually. Yeah, I do. I mean, my list of things to watch is so long anyway, but if I think it's like, you know, something that I've missed that I would like, like, you know, I will always take recommendations from Boyd because I feel like...

18:54Andrew Lincoln:Because he knows you. Yes. When people know me and they're like, know literally... Are you idiosyncrasies, quirks and foibles? Indeed. So I will add, so when Boyd used to turn to me and be like, you're going to like this, in that kind of very unenthusiastic way, but because he knows me, I would add it to my list yeah I think it depends on the person that's giving it right

19:17Kay:so if I gave you a recommendation you just ignore it yeah because you've said to me before no no go on really stick with foundation you'll really like it

19:24Andrew Lincoln:I never said that about foundation it's quite the opposite in fact it was more I don't even know why we're bothering to have you look at this program it was more that assuming he tried to get me to watch it three times

19:38Kay:I didn't think you'd like it It was more for my own amusement. So perverse. That's why I won't take any recommendations. Game of Thrones, I genuinely think you might enjoy it. I can't say for sure, but I think you might. I think you're right. And actually, it is a plan for autumn. Is it really? Yeah, for real. Am I being trolled, Boydie? No, no, no. I promise. But I wasn't going to mention it because then I knew that you'd be on my case. Game of Thrones. Yeah, exactly. I knew this shit was true. Triumphant return. Oh, God. Right, weekly Pilot Plus episodes. Yes, see? Yes. I think we're in autumn now, by the way.

20:06Kay:Yes, we are. by autumn I mean October

20:08Andrew Lincoln:okay you mean late autumn early winter I think we're looking at what I mean is when I get into my hibernation that's when I'll be settling down with it what about you Boyd I mean I can't imagine anyone recommends anything Boyd watches everything so what are you going to recommend yeah there's a problem yeah I can't remember the last time actually having said that there's been a couple of times on this very show where people have mentioned shows normally foreign language ones or foreign shows yeah Yeah, that's true. Or shows that we've reviewed the first episode of, and people have said, oh, you should carry on watching it because it gets better.

20:45Andrew Lincoln:And that's happened a couple of times. I was trying to think of an example, but I can't have a stop on my head. But it's definitely happened. People have said, no, no, no, you went too early on your criticism of a particular show. And that's fair enough, because often we have so much to watch on this. When we do get to the review section, we only have time to watch one episode sometimes, which I always feel guilty about, actually, because TV is... In the whole history of TV, there's been loads of shows that have started off slowly and have built up head of scene and end up becoming brilliant. Schitt's Creek.

21:14Andrew Lincoln:Or Schitt's Creek, you'd have to sit through

21:16Kay:the whole first season, really, wouldn't you? No, not really. That's a slightly different thing. No, but do you say that there are certain shows... Even US office people often say start with season two.

21:24Andrew Lincoln:Box and Rex, start with season three. No. Seinfeld, start with season two, three, maybe. Ten. Ten, steady. Friends, start with season ten. Shots fired. come on boy but you know book recommendations I mean again because of you know I can't remember things Russell T. Davis on his Instagram feed recommends books very frequently does he? yes and I've bought at least three or four books purely because he's recommended them now I've yet to get around to reading them but like you because actually a lot like you I read crime novels just to kind of keep myself entertained you're reading the new Harlan Coburn definitely be reading the new Harlan always read the new Harlan Coburn I read the new there's a new Gertriche on the way which even though they are now being written by his brother I know it's an Andrew child I know it's an Andrew child but how do you feel about Patricia Cornwall I like Patricia Cornwall Patricia Cornwall is an example of someone who we reviewed on famously the Sion Mayo show and she was there on the you know down the line and we had to review her show whatever it was in front of her book Kay Scarpetta yeah it was a Scarpetta novel indeed yeah that we reviewed but she's really good I think she's an excellent so you didn't have to slag her off to her face no always good no exactly but that happened yeah I used to give book recommendations as well effectively because we do two books a week on that show for like five or six years it's basically the oracle yeah no no no I have been in the position of being the recommender in all kinds of ways so it's rare but yeah Russell T Davies' book recommendations I'm definitely going to get round to reading the ones that I've already bought which are literally literally next to my bed four or five of them To be read, Pyle.

23:03Andrew Lincoln:So, bottom line is, I would absolutely happily... He's open to it, guys. I'm open. He's open to it. DM him. Message him. For sure. He's got a lot of time in his hands, ready to take on your recommendations.

23:14Kay:Okay. We've answered the question. Yeah, good question. Hooray! If you'd like to get in touch, the email address, let's say it again, it's pilotTV at empiremagazine.com. I'd love to hear from you. We would. We would. Should we have a guest? Let's have a guest. Let's have two, in fact. because this week's guests are the star and writer of ITV's Coldwater, Andrew Lincoln and David Ireland. Now, if you subscribe to Pilot Plus, and if not, why not? But you'll already have heard our review of that show, which sees Lincoln as a man dealing with his own kind of cowardice after failing to stop a woman being assaulted at a playground, plus some other somewhat mad turn of events.

23:50Kay:Now, the show started yesterday, I think, as we go out on ITV, and Boyddy cornered Lincoln and Ireland to talk all about it.

23:56Andrew Lincoln:please welcome Andrew Lincoln and David Ireland to the Pilot TV podcast. Andrew, star and producer of Cold Water. David, the creator, writer and producer as well. Welcome to the Pilot TV podcast. What was the initial kind of kernel for you of this show? Where did it start from? Well, I wrote the first episode and I wrote most of it in 2020, which was obviously a very weird year for most of us. so I was having trouble sleeping at night and I was being very insomniac like the character in the show and there was various things going on in my life that fed into the show like I was running obsessively I was reading the Bible obsessively I was thinking about moving to the countryside like a lot of people, me and my wife were talking about maybe we should move out of the city into the countryside and I was reading a lot of true crime books and so all that was sort of feeding into it and turning it into what it was but it was always, the idea was always meant to be that it was going to be a thriller, you know I just wasn't sure what kind of thriller All those elements are there, absolutely, aren't they?

25:07Andrew Lincoln:Yeah, in the show Andrew, I'm assuming, I think every interview you do from now on until the show comes out we'll start with the question, and I'm not above it it's 15 years since you did a British TV show what i mean obviously you've been busy in that time you've been busy with walking with the dead etc yeah i mean yeah yeah clearing the world of the undead yeah it takes a while boyd it does it's it's a big job and someone to do it they're relentless yes exactly but yeah it is it's is it 15 years yeah it's uh what was the question is what was it about this project if i didn't finish the question.

25:46Andrew Lincoln:What is it about this project that brought you back to British TV after 15 years? Well, I said no to it twice. Why? Because it made me nervous. It was a challenging role. It's a man that is in sort of crisis. It's a man that is a weak man who does something when he's faced with a violent incident. He runs away. And he's sort of a man who's lost a sense of himself, a middle-aged man. But it was so beautifully written. And I knew David's writing his plays. I knew I'd been to one of his plays very recently when I got sent the script. And then I just couldn't walk away from it. I kept returning to it because I just thought, this is going to be frightening.

26:33Andrew Lincoln:It's going to be challenging. And I think I might learn something doing this and if we could get um a good ensemble of actors together which we were so blessed with because everybody wanted to everybody had the same instinct as i did when i read it it might be quite a lot of fun and it's quite interesting i mean i've been working on it for six months i still am none the wiser of what this is you know yeah that was the that was one of the attractions to it is that I think it's lots of things. I think it's about getting older. It's about marriage. It's about a loss of community. It's about a sense of faith or lack of faith and reason.

27:13Andrew Lincoln:It's about the urban. It's about the countryside. It's about, you know, it's a comedy of manners to a certain degree. There's lots of, but it's also frightening and horrific. And it's, so it's, you know, it's an unromantic comedy thriller. That's a brilliant description. It is because it is funny, David. I know a lot of your stuff is funny, and life is funny, isn't it? But, yeah, whether it's discussion about Fergie being the object of your lust, shall we say, or Andrew being caught in the shower by his wife, obviously having a fun time, amusing himself, all of these things. There are funny moments all the way through.

27:57Andrew Lincoln:Is that just naturally how you write, and it's always going to be funny? yeah that that that tends to be the case yeah i i sort of i know that even if i even i know that even if i write a thriller or a drama it's gonna have funny moments in it i just seem to be attracted to comedy and i love writing i love writing funny stuff but i don't particularly like writing comedy which is a weird thing i don't like writing just straightforward comedy i always like to sort of mix genres and mixed tones that's the way it's always been in theater for me where I'll take a very serious subject but just write about it in a funny way but also make it dramatic and it's kind of weird to kind of adjust that to TV and make that work for TV is a challenge but it's something I really enjoy doing Yeah, and you've got Andrew, you mentioned the cast and your wife played by Ndiravama fantastic, always brilliant, absolutely brilliant but I love, this feel like you talked about it's partly about a marriage and as a kind of a marriage which has been you know you've got kids it's it's well established it's been going it's quite rare to get a depiction of a marriage like that this kind of raw and honest and there's a real honesty to that depiction of marriage don't you think i agree that was the bit that i kept that's the scene in the shower when she interrupts and she's on her phone and that sort of perfunctory nature of marriage and the fact that you're in and out of each other's, you know, lives so, so intimately, and then also missing stuff and absorbing stuff, that sort of familiarity.

29:33Andrew Lincoln:And that's why it was so lovely to work with Indy, because she's an old friend that I've always thought is one of the great actors of this country. And I always wanted to work together. We were at drama school together, she was the year but i knew her way way back from bath since the teenage years so it was such a joy to be married to her and it felt that you know we had that big scene when he's emasculated obviously he can't get it up in bed and you know and that was very early on and it was great to sort of land that scene that sort of seven page you know 10 minute sort of intimate sort of take it was very theatrical it's because they you know david's a brilliant theatre writer so it it has this inherent energy and so i think we were fortunate that we got extraordinary actors that knew instinctively how to react to the the the sort of chewiness of the dialogue and david it strikes me that the two couples at the center of the there's the other couple played by eve miles and you and bremner are quite a big they are big characters aren't they whereas i feel like the two Central Man characters are very authentic and believable, whereas you really ratchet it up.

30:47Andrew Lincoln:It feels to me like you ratcheted it up, especially Eve Miles. She's bonkers, isn't she, her character? Yeah. I mean, she's absolutely brilliant. You know, Eve is just fantastic. Yeah. As the series goes on, she becomes more and more brilliant the more we see of her. And Ewan, you know, is just brilliant. And they're two, both of them are very different as well. But they complement each other really well, Eve and Ewan. And yeah, I think at some point I had this realization that it was kind of the series was kind of like a marriage between two good people that was falling apart and a marriage between two very bad people.

31:23That was a really strong, good marriage. You know, I find that really interesting that the happy marriage was two people who were, let's say, deeply flawed. um i find that really interesting it's kind of shakespearean as well you know that they say that um the uh the only happy marriage in shakespeare is the macbeths you know i find that really

31:48Andrew Lincoln:interesting that's brilliant yeah yeah um the show and the show started i should say the show starts with this incredible kind of set this really quite shocking set piece where you know the sudden act of violence that that john sees andrew and it's rare to get i was ready to get an opening thing that really is shocking, but I found that really disturbing, that sequence. How was that to shoot? And, you know, was always the first sequence, David, by the way? Yeah, it always was. And it was the kind of thing that I would usually start a play with, you know. And one of the things I realised about TV is that the thing is, when you've got an audience in a theatre, you've kind of got them trapped.

32:26I mean, they can walk out, but if you put a really violent scene in the first five minutes, they're kind of stuck there. And then I realised, no no people can turn this off you know um so it was like you know it was quite a risk to to make it so violent but and again yeah it was one of those things that when you write it it seems fine but when you see it filmed and when you see it all added and put together it's it's it's really unpleasant you know um but but and i think it's sort of we we learned a lot through the editing process you know and and um there were various changes throughout you know everything and um but i think it's completely justified and i think it works really well it really kicks starts the story um absolutely it's a really important moment it really is is the starting point for the character of john and this this journey that he goes on yeah because he's he

33:17Andrew Lincoln:not knowing what to do i mean who you can't blame him i felt like yeah you know who knows what to do in that situation. It's an impossible situation, isn't it? Well, I agree. I mean, I think it is a situation that we all would wish to behave in a certain way, and he doesn't. You know, it's like Force Majeure, one of those great movies, or The Slap or whatever. But what's interesting in the structure of the story is that there are other depth charges that this covers, which is really smart that David did about their marriage and about other things. But it all sort of keeps boring down into this one thing about masculinity for him.

33:59Andrew Lincoln:What I was interested in is, you know, I played this sort of version of a hero for so many years. And this felt like the diametrically opposed other end of the sort of continuum of masculinity. and he gets everything stripped away from him throughout that first episode. And then the only person that gives him something is the next door neighbour who happens to be a Christian. And it's a really interesting moment that he gets given this gift. And then we go on this mad sort of rollercoaster of this bromance because of this act. Yeah, you've been playing a guy who rises to the challenge and this guy does not rise to the challenge.

34:47Andrew Lincoln:This is a guy that is probably much closer to how I would react. Most people, what you say is, you know, we all have a version of ourselves. And I think that what's been interesting playing John is that all of these, you know, he's lost. He has a version of himself in the 90s that we all do, that we sort of the nostalgia of the 90s and what that was for all of us and the people we were then and age does it too you know he's an older man and things are you know i love that with seinfeld you know make no mistake your children are here to replace you and i think he's he's got that existential sort of ennui it's a bit like i was thinking it's very pretentious i'm just about to you can you can buzz me out of it snip me out of it but i was If it was a painting, it would be a pop art version of the scream.

35:44Andrew Lincoln:It's like a Warhol's version. It's all sort of funny, but it's also got this sort of sense of this real sort of guttural scream going on. And I think David's writing has that, you know, and people are searching for direct. You know, you have a Bible group, you have a community, you have a rural community, people leaving a metropolis because of an incident, but maybe because of other things. No, that's a brilliant description. I really like the scene, David, where they're in bed and they're talking about Philip Roth. And, you know, John's being quite patronising, let's face it. But that's the kind of scene, I imagine, you can deny this if you want, you know, I don't know, an ITV drama person might put a red line through there and go, what?

36:32Andrew Lincoln:A discussion of Philip Roth and a prime... Well, I was expecting that too, but there was none of that. There was no censoriousness from ITV. There was no producers at any point said, no, you can't have that or that references to Arch. I mean, there's a joke about, I think in episode three or four, there's a reference to Luther Vandross, which I thought people will, like they will, somebody at ITV will say to cut that because nobody will get that reference. But no, none of that. Were you tempted to put in a reference to this life somewhere? 90s nostalgia could have gone the whole hog. I think there is.

37:12If I recall correctly, there is a lot of 90s nostalgia in the show. There certainly was in the first draft, but I don't remember if it's – because we talked as well a lot about Fight Club as well. You know, like there is a bit of – like me and Andy are obviously of the same generation, so there is a lot of shared cultural references.

37:28Andrew Lincoln:Yeah. And we were talking about like – Like when I was writing, I was thinking of Straw Dogs a lot. I love Straw Dogs and I love any story where a sort of urban man is out of his depth and put in an extraordinarily violent situation like Deliverance and Eden Lake and stuff like that. I love all that kind of stuff. And I think, Andy, you were quite into that stuff as well, weren't you? I loves it. I just think human beings and extremists, which is the sort of kissing cousin of The Walking Dead. I mean, that's essentially the DNA of that show as well. You know, it just happened to be a horror genre version of it.

38:08Andrew Lincoln:But I'm really fascinated. I think human beings are fascinated of seeing, you know, under the microscope, how would you act? You know, how would you react if this really was a situation? And it's a beautiful, I sort of wrote to Ewan because I've always admired him. And I said, please come and spend, you know, the summer coercive controlling me and torturing me back in your home, you know, your home country. Please. I would love it. You know, and it was sort of one of those, because he is a sort of shadow version of their twin, their sort of version, their sort of interchangeable. Yeah. You know, and I wanted that idea that they need each other.

38:54Andrew Lincoln:And there is a sort of love story of sorts because he's offering something that John could never be. Yeah, absolutely. There's a hell of a lot of running in this show. I mean, it's like one of those Tom Cruise films where he's running all the time. It was exhausting. Did you have to? Were you a natural runner? How did you prepare for all the running? It's ridiculous. Because whenever I wasn't on, there was a B unit going, Andy, we need you to run. You know, it was like any time there was, it was just that Andy's running again. But also I quite liked when my wife was watching it because we've got screeners.

39:29Andrew Lincoln:And it's interesting because she just was watching it on the way back from Cornwall last night. And she just went with the scene with the deer. She was going deliverance. And then, and she said, darling, it's all right. your flat feet aren't as bad with these scenes wow wow i mean running running all those scenes with flat feet that is that is punishing i really put it out there tom cruise doesn't have to do that no right yeah but it's funny because when i watch the second the running is the is the title sequence as well just to ram it home that you really are running yeah running yeah running away from himself absolutely the other thing that's i mean the scene episode two i won't spoil it but you get very drunk.

40:09Andrew Lincoln:Now, drunk acting is tough, right? That feels like one of the big challenges. How did you... Were you a natural? How was that? I don't know. You tell me. I haven't watched it. Oh, it's great. Oh, good, yeah. I've had a lot of practice, boys. Good. Yeah. It was long hours. Yeah. Well, it was that sort of wild sort of losing oneself in this. And that's what I mean, the deliverance of it all, all the sorts of straw dogs. I love rural, remote communities. I'm a big fan of that. You know, the Petri dish of the outsider coming in and what that looks like and the slaughtered lamb and you're not from around these parts.

40:52Andrew Lincoln:But it was also just that him being, you know, the wizard, you know, the Oberon of his, on the lovers in this place, you know, of you and I loved, and him sort of whispering and sort of trying to set me up with the young girl as well, just to sort of get his talons even further into me. Yeah, so we wanted it to be funny, but also this sort of losing oneself because of this guilt. And I like the way David did that. Even the kids, the kids, let's face it, are quite annoying to some of the time. They're quite horrible to their poor dad. I felt sorry for John. Andrew's got his thumbs up. But that's quite bold in itself, isn't it?

41:40Andrew Lincoln:Well, kids can be really annoying. Yeah, I guess. I've never thought of it like that before. I guess they are annoying. But I guess it's seeing it from John's perspective. He's a stay-at-home dad and he's resentful about it. Yeah. And he sort of acts like he's making a big sacrifice, but really he doesn't enjoy spending time with his kids. You know, he loves his kids, but he finds it, for whatever reason, he finds it very, very hard. And I think that's probably something a lot of people can identify with. So, yeah, again, I thought that was just something that was fun to put on screen. It was kind of like trying to do, create a domestic drama as well as a thriller, as well as a comedy, and put it all into one.

42:29Andrew Lincoln:Well, I think you have succeeded, I have to say. it is all those things um congratulations and and you finally what's next for you uh i'm going on stage boys oh yeah i know this actually because i wrote a preview of it in in yes yeah so i'm i'm working with a uh very interesting and brilliant director called simon stone who i don't know if you saw yerma billy yes yes yeah yeah wonderful and so we're doing uh the lady from the sea a version of that so what he does is he sort of rewrites it with all the same theme with alicia vikanda and uh jonathan mcmillan and gracie and a few this wonderful cast um of we've done a week's workshop uh about two weeks ago three weeks ago and i start rehearsals proper in about 10 days wow and when's the last time you're on stage doing it Well, I did something in COVID at the Old Vic.

43:29Andrew Lincoln:I played Scrooge. I gave my Scrooge. But I don't know if that counts because there wasn't any audience there, but it was live and it was a film. Yeah. And it was pretty frightening. So, yeah, I think that I'm going to say it counts to stop myself from being that nervous. Fair enough. Yeah, fair enough. And David, for you, have you got another play on the cards or another TV show? Yeah, well, my play, The Fifth Step, is on at the West End at the minute with Morton Freeman and Jack Loudon on it. That's about to end. I have lots of plays in various stages of development. He's got an absolute belter that I've read all of them, and there's one that is going to be, I mean, honestly, it's so good.

44:16Andrew Lincoln:Oh, excellent. I'm excited about that. I can't say much about that yet, though. but yeah it should be good fair enough well congratulations on the show I loved it it's so different and exciting cheers Andrew

44:28Kay:cheers David thank you thanks boys that was Andrew Lincoln and David Ireland and time now for this week's news what do we have in the world of news Boydie well let's

44:37Andrew Lincoln:let's touch on the National TV Awards shall we let's because as alluded to earlier have you used that in the right way I don't know who gives a shit wow that's a reference to the listener who got in touch to say we are constantly using it

44:50Kay:I think the listeners maybe have alluded to the fact that Boyd, he does this. Exactly.

44:54Andrew Lincoln:I now use the word as often as I can just to be in an ironic, self-aware manner. So, alluding to the winners in last night, as we were recording this now, National TV Awards, as I mentioned earlier, I think they're better than usual because sometimes, because it is voted for by members of the public, sometimes it ends up being like Mrs. Brown's boys, ends up winning over something good, for example. Slams head on desk. Slams head on desk, exactly. So, I mean, there are a few weird ones. But new drama, Adolescence, one. Tick. Absolute tick, yeah, quite rightly. And similarly, in the acting category, the drama performance, young Owen Cooper won for playing Jamie Miller in Adolescence.

45:34Andrew Lincoln:And he's away filming at the moment. And his colleague, who's in the… Amari. Amari. And he was so sweet, wasn't he? It was so… It was a brilliant moment, James. Before you get completely distracted. So, his colleague, who's also in… Adolescents. Adolescents, thank you. He's the guy, he's the character in the thing who explains, doesn't he, all about how, kind of how the internet works. The emojis. All the emoji codes. Yeah, all of that. Yeah, he explains all of that. So he's got a key role in the show. But he, basically, he had a message from Owen Cooper on his phone and he literally got it out on his iPhone and played it.

46:12I felt so tense with that. Yeah, I know. I thought, please let the audio pick up on this microphone. There was a little pause,

46:16Andrew Lincoln:but then, yeah, then they showed him literally on his iPhone giving this thank you speech. And that was really lovely, little kind of authentic, real moment, I thought. Yeah, because he thanked Amari for using his data. Yes, he did. For playing it. That was a brilliant moment. And basically, the reason why, by the way, why none of the, like Stephen Graham wasn't there and the writer Jack Thorne wasn't there is because it's the Emmys in America this weekend, I believe. So they had the craft Emmys last weekend. Wait, wait, wait, wait. They're prioritizing the Emmys over the national television. Well, shocking.

46:47Andrew Lincoln:I'm just saying. it is shocking but I believe that's the reason why so they had the kind of craft ones in which various awards were given out including like the winner of best guest star in a comedy which was all about the studio almost all the nominees except for one were from the studio and someone won that anyway I think I believe this weekend is the primetime Emmys and I think they're all sticking around for that I may be proved wrong because I haven't double checked that

47:13Kay:that's the level of accuracy you can come to expect from this podcast he's the oracle that it will be true. Well. Listen, you're missing the biggest upset of the night. Come on.

47:23Andrew Lincoln:Go on. Right? Yes. The Ant and Dec Award. Finally, a new recipient of that, right? Gary, bloody Lineker. And I was delighted because, you know, James, Ant and Dec have won for 23, I believe 23 years in a row. And finally, for Best Presenter. But this year, Gary Lineker won it. And yeah, I was happy to see it. Oh, it was brilliant. It was a brilliant moment. Yeah, especially, it kind of flew in the face of all those people who slugged him. off in the press for spreading his opinion about stuff, which you know, I mean, let's not get into it. That's a can of worms. He alluded to it. He did allude to it, exactly, and I'm going to allude to the fact that I thought his speech was great because he acknowledged, kind of defended himself, I think.

48:05Andrew Lincoln:He could have ignored it, but it was a heartwarming victory, I think, for him. Absolutely. And the other biggest, the biggest, most important win of the night, come on, let's face it. Go on. In the comedy category, facing down Brassic, Mrs. Brown's boys, and Michael McIntyre's 25th year stand-up special was Gavin and Stacey. Deserved winners. Listen, that was another one that made me very tense because I thought Larry Lamb, who was delivering the speech, he mentioned everyone, and I genuinely thought, oh my God, you've forgotten Ruth, he's next to you. And she kept on looking at him, and I thought, please mention it.

48:36No, no, no, no.

48:36Andrew Lincoln:I think he was building up to it, and I think what happened was... It wasn't clear, though. But I think they decide who's going to do the acceptance speech. Yeah. Obviously, he was... because Ruth do you remember when they were all on stage there was a moment where you weren't sure which of them was going to step on and Ruth was like literally gesturing to him going the eldest statesman yeah the eldest statesman and you know we said you should do it and then she chipped him with a little reference later and of course James is also away James is on Broadway at the moment doing art the play so he wasn't there he couldn't be there but a lovely moment and a kind of reunion of all the main people in fact actually Joe Page wasn't there either or Matt Horne or Matt Horne so in many ways not any of those things not any of the major people Uncle Brim was there Uncle Brim was there Rob was there Rob Brydon was there hopefully now listen I just want to mention two more go on because Clarkson's Farm picked up Factual Entertainment which I was delighted about and also and James you'll be particularly uninterested in this Steve McFadden right Phil Mitchell from EastEnders who's been on the show for about 100 years and puts in such a like he is excellent on the show but it's just goes unrecognised for years he finally got an NTA award for serial drama performance and was visibly moved and was very well deserved.

49:50Most important news, some would say, this week.

49:52Kay:Is it Francais news? No, it's not. Go on. The White Lotus, La Lotus Blanc, is going to be in France for the next series. Oh my God, exciting. I think just after we recorded last week. Should I tell you why that's exciting? Because maybe we'll get invited on a set trip because that's not going to be expensive to whiz us over there. That'd be fine. I mean as someone who stayed at a White Lotus you know I think I'm uniquely positioned to go you and Bates one and the same I'm asking we go on holiday together quite a lot no it was the news that Victoria Beckham's Netflix documentary has finally got a date James what?

50:27yes 9th of October 9th of October put it in your calendar what's it about? Victoria Beckham

50:32Kay:oh it's the documentary about oh it's Ines the thing we saw the clip from at the Netflix thing good god I won't be watching that okay yeah fine super were you excited Kate to hear that there is going to be a TV series of the video game franchise Life is Strange I couldn't contain myself no I didn't think so alright but it's coming from the end of the fucking world writer so I guess that's a little bit of interest for you it'll have to be the end of the fucking world before I watch it yeah I think that's about right what else has happened in the world there's a conjuring TV series in the works as well which I think we kind of knew that it was happening but I think they've announced a showrunner and the writers so Nancy Wan is going to be showrunner of the Conjuring TV series.

51:12Kay:Because Conjuring Last Rites, the most recent Conjuring, has done very well, very well actually, at the box office. So I think they're talking about prequel film and there's this TV series. So the Conjuring Last Rites will be anything but Last Rites.

51:22Andrew Lincoln:The Conjuring K, FYI. I was hoping for a magic show. It's not going to be that. It's not a magic show.

51:27Kay:It's a Paul Daniels biopic. Oh my God, I would love that.

51:30Andrew Lincoln:Who would play Paul and Debbie McGee, I wonder?

51:33Kay:Well, Vera Farmiga and Patrick Wilson, clearly.

51:35Andrew Lincoln:That would be amazing. That was obvious. That would be, do you know what, That's such a brilliant idea. They walk away from the Conjuring franchise, which I was going to say is the most successful horror franchise in history,

51:47Kay:the Conjuring franchise. Which is, and I'm going to say this, it might be controversial, which is amazing considering it's not actually very good.

51:53Andrew Lincoln:No, absolutely. But you know what? I've watched, I think I've probably watched almost every film in the Conjuring. And the Annabelles. I've watched all the Annabelles. The Annabelles are particularly ridiculous. Annabelles is a doll. The whole thing revolves around the doll. The doll being a vicious maniacal thing that comes to life somehow. And the nun is basically Marilyn Manson in a habit. Exactly. Lovely stuff on my nightmare. I have sat through more mediocre entries into this franchise than I care to remember. And yeah, I actually really enjoyed the finale one. What's it called again? Last Rites.

52:26Andrew Lincoln:Last Rites is actually perfectly decent fun. And I enjoyed it. So it's kind of gone out with a bang. And yet it hasn't gone out now because there'll be a fucking people It's like fucking Downton Abbey. they're never going to stop doing this it's like fucking swearing all over the place

52:39Kay:all of a sudden because yeah why not yeah wait for the conjuring the grand finale which will be along at some point

52:45Andrew Lincoln:yeah away from conjuring news though did you see the I think for me this is among the most exciting news of the week apart from Victoria Beckham no yes apart from that apart from Ruth and James writing together this Apple TV show is Lena Dunham next project is with Jeremy O 'Harris and Raffi Donatic and they're all developing a series about intimacy coordination, which is a really good subject, right? Great. Called Sex Act for Netflix. And they're eyeing, I'm reading out all the, because eyeing is a word that's used in variety and Oliver Bord and all these things. They're eyeing Sarah Paulson, the great Sarah Paulson, to star in it as well.

53:25Andrew Lincoln:And I consider that to be an extremely exciting project all around. That is. Agreed. Second that emotion. Thanks.

53:32Kay:Shall we wrap up news at this point, given that we are on the clock?

53:35Andrew Lincoln:Yes.

53:36Kay:All right, let's do it. Let's move on to this week's reviews. And we begin this week with Black Rabbit on Netflix. And this is a miniseries starring Jude Law as a kind of restaurateur and Jason Bateman as his feckless gambling-addicted brother. Now, this all kicks off with an armed robbery and then the show fills in the gaps from there as it kind of depicts the run-ups to that major event. Now, Boydie, I have a faint tickling in the back of my head that you are somehow compromised on this show. Is that true? No. Really? No, but you should get that tickle at the back of your head, check. Yeah. What a tickle.

54:07Kay:I don't know.

54:08Andrew Lincoln:I feel like you might be compromised in some passion. I'm trying to rack my brains. I don't think I've interviewed anyone. I don't think, you know, I've done any special... No, I don't think so.

54:16Kay:Well, anyway, I'm going to turn to Kay regardless. Because that's what his script says. Would you eat at Netflix's Black Rabbit? I would, although not in the night in question because as you, I think you just said, Jude Law is this former rock front man. He's very suave and ambitious and he's got this restaurant slash club slash whatever very trendy in manhattan when we join him as he's holding forth masked uh armed robbers ne 'er-do-wells yeah hold the place up and it's like catastrophic and very tense um and suspenseful which i have a slight issue with then it skips it goes flashes back a month and you're kind of like yeah but my whole issue with this is like you've seen this most dramatic moment like everything's answered in the flashback and it's and it's anticlimactic it's like you know what's you know what it's leading to it's a classic technique

55:11Andrew Lincoln:isn't it you have the big moment of action or whatever and then you flashback to fill in butts yeah but for example what are you thinking

55:17Kay:it's egregious I think I think I think there's edging and there's edging and I think in this like they show you the exciting event and then you have to sit through a whole episode and think okay I'm gonna find and then it goes back to that event at the end yeah you see a little bit more of it and then the next episode it resets again so this entire season is just foreplay leading up to this it's like I want to know what happens but I don't want to know what happens enough to sit through however many episodes to find out what happens so that's interesting you say that because I sort of felt the same in that for example in the flashback there's the whole thing is that he's trying to get this review prestigious review from the New York Times blah blah blah well this is going to act as I suppose as a little bit of a spoiler but in that opening scene you can tell it's very successful they've probably got the star review all that kind of stuff so you're like why am I having to sit through this when I sort of know where it's going I sort of know through the introduction of the brother so the brother is the thing that keeps me interested played by Jason Bateman I'm loving his villain era by the way really enjoying Jason Bateman as kind of like a slightly grubby little character which he's done a number of times very beardy looks like a twit one of the twits he plays Vince and he is a ne 'er-do-well as you would say James a drug addict he's got a lot of bad men after him and he gets back in touch with his brother so almost certainly you sort of make the connection that he's somehow involved in whatever happens in this opening scene so he's the thing I think, he's the real draw for me I think Jude Law is great in this and it's very stylish but I don't know I just found it a bit of a slog the flashback I must concur

56:58Andrew Lincoln:oh I didn't too funny enough even though I think to be honest now I feel like because every single elite TV show starts with a thing and then flashes back you know for a whole series or an episode I've been so inured to its effects that I now no longer care It used to be

57:16Kay:like your bait noir I mean it still is a bit

57:18Andrew Lincoln:my bait noir because it's just it's literally the law that they have to do that do that way with the narrative so I'm kind of not bothered anymore It feels like you've watched the best scene That's my problem

57:29Kay:Oh, I didn't feel that way at all. If it was like what we do often get in an episode where you see at the beginning, it resets, but by the time you get to the end of the first episode, you're back there. That I'm kind of fine with, but don't make me sit through an entire series to see what happens. And look, I know it can be done well. Wait, is that what's going to happen? Which is great. Yeah, the White Lotus is built around that. That's literally what it does. It's built around that, but there's so much more going on there. But I just, I found, much like Kate, I found this quite a slog. and I do think, you know, this comes back to our old friend Tone, I do think it's quite dour and a bit bleak.

58:05Kay:And I think part of that was it didn't exactly propel itself with me. I just found it, again, just a little bit hard work getting through it because everyone's kind of a bit glum and a bit gloomy. And I did watch two episodes of this and just watched the first one. And the only thing that really redeemed it for me is, can we talk a little bit about the music video, please?

58:23Andrew Lincoln:Oh my God, the music video is incredible.

58:24Kay:because the Black Rabbit is named after the band they had called the Black Rabbits. Oh, is that in episode two? I haven't seen it. Episode two begins with this music video they've done wearing some extraordinary wiggage and you've got Jude Lord doing his best Kurt Cobain and I was just like, I'm watching Spinal Tap and it was literally the same day that I watched Spinal Tap and I'm like, this is Spinal Tap and it's deranged, but it's not played for laughs.

58:50Andrew Lincoln:Well, I think it slightly is played for laughs. I mean, it's definitely... Is it knowing?

58:55Kay:It's definitely, oh, they're supposed to look a bit silly. Oh, yeah. But it's not played for laugh laughs. Like, it's not comedy. Although you would hate it if it was played for laugh laughs. It's a tonal shift.

59:03Andrew Lincoln:It is a tonal shift. It is a tonal shift. For sure. Do you know, I did not, I really, I was interested enough in the characters. I didn't think it was, I know what you mean. It's kind of glum in some ways. But I particularly, I think Jason Bateman's character is the one that absolutely keeps it going. and Jason Bateman who I love anyway is such an engaging presence and even though he's obviously like been a total twat and he's got you know all these gangsters on his chasing him for gambling debts and stuff you really kind of feel for him and I was fascinated I say you clearly you two weren't but I was fascinated enough in him and his relationship to Jude Law to his brother played by Jude Law and I thought Jude Law was really good in that role like Jude Law is very put upon and he's grappling with lots of different themes and he's keeping lots of plates spinning, etc.

59:52Andrew Lincoln:But I like that kind of hectic whirlwind of the narrative. And what's interesting, because a couple of weeks ago, I mentioned that I was watching this. That's probably why you thought I was in his pocket. He said, if you're expecting the bear. Yeah, yeah. Because it is on paper. It's the bear. It's literally the bear. But it is a completely different tone. It is a much less slick. It's kind of like a rough around the edges kind of tone. It's more bleak. This is like a 70s... Probably still get nominated for Best Comedy, but there you go. Probably. This is more like the influence on this show, I feel, are like bleak-ish 70s thrillers, like Dog Day Afternoon or something like that.

1:00:28Andrew Lincoln:It's got that gritty, grainy look to it as well, which I liked. And I just thought it was... So it was completely different to The Bear. Couldn't be more different. And so it's completely valid that there are two shows about brothers working in a bar slash restaurant, where they need good review from The New York Times. Is it The New York Times? No, it's Chicago. Time, whatever it's called, in The Bear. Tribune, is it? Yeah. so there are incredible similarities but once you watch them they're completely different so I like the fact this was totally different I liked the vibe of it I liked there's other Shopei Dorishu plays Wes who's this kind of like musician slash entrepreneur slash Will.i.am like figure let's say he's cooler than Will.i.am much cooler than Will.i.am thinks he's cool doesn't he but yeah he's much cooler than Will.i.am you're right and I really liked his character as well and I was really interested you get to see him and he's kind of with his entourage and he's an absolutely lavish Manhattan apartment and all of that.

1:01:19Andrew Lincoln:So I just like the whole, and here's the thing, that an inferior TV reviewer, of which none of us are, would say that New York is like a character in the show. But it does use New York locations beautifully. I loved all of that stuff. There's loads.

1:01:37Kay:A canny bit of lampshading there, Boydie. Thank you.

1:01:40Andrew Lincoln:There's a lot, it just uses New York fantastically well, I think. So I like that element of it as well. When is this set? Is it early 2000s? Something like that, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. I can't remember. I have no idea. Isn't it contemporary? It doesn't feel... I don't think it's... Are they using iPhones? I'm trying to think. I think they are, aren't they? Oh, really? Yeah, I think they are. It didn't feel super period to me. No, I think it's fairly... And we should say, and the gangsters, the kind of lead gangster guy is Troy Kotsur from Coda, who's very effective in it as well. I thought him and his...

1:02:12Andrew Lincoln:He's kind of got like doofus trainee gangsters who are a bit like the ones you remember in Midnight Run there are these absolute idiots who don't know what the fuck they're doing so even though they're kind of menacing in a way they're also absolute absolute idiots so I like the characters I like the milieu I liked the way it was filmed the mise-en-scene the mise-en-scene I like Jude Law I love Jason Bateman ever since you found out White Lotus in France you two yeah so I was fully I really enjoyed it I really liked it and I would be watching to the end for sure in fact I'm already kind of halfway through so yeah I'll be watching the rest of it No, I'll watch more.

1:02:46I'm just, yeah.

1:02:47Kay:Yeah, not so much. No. Yeah, I'm tapping out, sorry. Oh, dear. Officially tapping out. I'm officially tapping out. It will keep me in for a bit longer. There's loads more geeky sci-fi for you to enjoy. Yeah, well, exactly. Exactly. Yes. Okay, that was Black Rabbit on the Netflix, which airs when, boy? Thursday, the 18th of September, 2025. Fabulous. Next up, we have Gen V on Prime. This is the teenage offshoot from The Boys, which I guess you could call a watered-down YA version, except for the wildly explicit violence. so this second season

1:03:17Andrew Lincoln:it's not toned down at all

1:03:18Kay:no it has not come on it's toned up this season the former guardians of Godolkin return from their imprisonment to find that the campus has become a more terrifying place to be it's also worth noting that Chance Podomo who played Andre on the show Andre Anderson he very tragically died last year so his character's death is dealt with off screen but the fallout from that forms another kind of pillar of this season's plot now Kay I'm not going to inflict this on you thank you much as it would amuse me. I really wish you'd told me that before I'd had to watch it. Yeah, well, I could have done. So to tell us about The Boys spin-off, we have The Boyd.

1:03:53Kay:Gen V, thoughts?

1:03:55Andrew Lincoln:So you got annoyed, didn't you? When Kay and I had to review Peacemaker behind your back. Yeah, and fucked up. Because you were away. We, in quotes, fucked it up. How did we fuck it up? We got it wrong, really, mainly. We just got it completely wrong. I alluded to... Wait a minute, let me just sound the monster claxon. Yeah. I alluded to... I discussed the fact that that show reminded me of The Boys because they both have extraordinary scenes of gratuitous nudity sexual activity violence and swearing and it's definitely like The Boys for me had a very similar tone and this is where I'm sure you can correct me but it felt like The Boys was doing it in a slightly more kind of satirical and there was slightly more point to it whereas I couldn't really see the point in The Peacemaker having a massive orgy scene in the middle and by the way I don't clutch my pearls.

1:04:44Andrew Lincoln:It's not a pearl-clutching way. I love the orgy. Yeah, I love it.

1:04:46Kay:Funnily enough, there was a lot of pearl-clutting in that scene.

1:04:48Andrew Lincoln:But anyway, carry on. That was steady of a different kind, yeah. So it wasn't for that reason that I was slightly bewildered by the orgy scene. It was more like, it literally seemed to define gratuitousness to me. So before we move on, because this is relevant, by the way, to Gen V. Because then you get to Gen V, the spin-off from The Boys, which has gone down the route of coming up with set-piece moments of extraordinary excess. I'm trying not to spoil it, but there's something involving some guy's bum and beer. And all I'm saying is... Not just once. There's not bum action in this. There's a lot of bum action and stuff going on there.

1:05:27Andrew Lincoln:There always is in The Boys, to be fair. That's what I'm saying. So these shows, all three really, even though obviously Peacemaker, I'm just embroiling Peacemaker in the general chat about this type of superpower, superhero-based, very adult situation shows. And here's my point. I'll get to my point eventually. They seem to be setting out to shock. Like, I felt, this episode of Gem V, right, I could just imagine the writers, they're all sitting there going, how can we outdo the scene in The Boys when some guy went into another guy's penis and then exploded? How can we do better than that? Yeah, that's the thing that happened.

1:06:03Andrew Lincoln:Shut up. That's the thing that happened. Yeah, that's the thing that happened.

1:06:05Kay:Don't even get me started on hero-gasm. Exactly. That's a whole other thing.

1:06:08Andrew Lincoln:They come up with these excessive moments of gratuitousness that are utterly absurd. And yet, I'm in favour of them in theory. But I can literally imagine them going, how can we outdo each other? How can we outdo what we've just seen in The Boys? And then how can Peacemaker outdo what we've just seen in Gen V? And it all seems much of a piece. And for me, it just kind of slightly gets in the way of the story. So I was fairly engaged with the story of Gen V, and then it does throw in these moments that just take you out of it. So on the one hand, I really enjoy those moments because I quite like the idea of a writer's room full of people trying to outdo each other and go, what if he puts this up his bum and then that happens, right?

1:06:47Andrew Lincoln:I'm fine. Just clip that up, please, Dan. But in actuality, isn't it the very definition of gratuitousness? And I look to James here as the expert on these matters. Oh, the expert on gratuity. No, no, I'm more like, am I wrong?

1:07:00Kay:Is there like, are there valid? That is 100 % what happens on The Boys, yes. I don't think that's necessarily what happens on Peacemakers. Well, it had more... Okay, yeah.

1:07:08Andrew Lincoln:It had more in Gen... Gen V seemed to want to now catch up with the boys.

1:07:10Kay:It doesn't. And I don't think it even quite approaches the boys in terms of sheer just like, what the fuck did I just see this? It's quite fun though. I like... Gen V had an interesting kind of mystery at its core the first season. And there's a different mystery at the core of this second season. It's not as good as the boys. But I do feel weirdly, if you really like the boys, it's not quite required viewing, but it's definitely kind of satellite viewing. there's a lot of crossover Homeland is in this Starlight's in this The Deep is in this so they do and the stories do intertwine and as it's evolving as we're going towards the final season of The Boys it feels like this feeds into it so I do feel like it's actually probably not a bad thing to watch if you really like The Boys but I think it's very entertaining I think they're really fun characters I do enjoy like the mad excess of it and yes and this week in particular obviously it's quite pointed what's happening on American university campuses but you know there's a lot of there's a lot of like you know commentary and satire in this show as well.

1:08:05Kay:It's not quite, as I think, a broad canvas as the boys. But I like what they're doing with it. Did you not find the set pieces to be silly? I mean,

1:08:16Andrew Lincoln:they are silly. Yeah, I guess that's a good question. That's what I was alluding to. Yes, well, I'll say it literally. I'll literally just say it. Yeah. Because you often have issue with silly moments. I mean, like, you know, blood squirting out from every orifice, including, you know. Oh, And exploding people, like exploding heads, people exploding blood with CGI blood has been going on since season one of The Boys. And this carries that old tradition on fully. Yeah, but yeah, it's a good question.

1:08:42Kay:I think it's pretty consistent within its own world. And it's totally quite similar to The Boys in that regard. The Boys definitely has an absurdity to it. Though it just stays, it's just colours within the lines of its own sort of rules. Where it's believable and you don't quite, it's believable within its own universe and I can get away with it I don't mind it but I know what you mean this is definitely a show that for me could go either way but it's just about Colours Inside the Lines we know now James' ciliometer exploding bums and blood squirting out fine but you know the odd like pratfall absolutely unacceptable

1:09:22Andrew Lincoln:it's very good a harmless bit of fun slapstick oh my god no Absolutely not.

1:09:28Kay:This is horrific. Can't be dealing with it.

1:09:30Andrew Lincoln:Shut it down. Cancel it.

1:09:31Kay:Well, we're going to get into this with an extra view as well. No. Oh, yes. Oh, God. So, yes, we can chat about that in a minute. But, yeah, I enjoyed Jeremy. It's not a patch on the boys. It isn't. But it's a fun watch. I watched the whole of the first season. I watched the whole of the second season. I've seen, I think, three episodes of this.

1:09:48Andrew Lincoln:It does actually tap into, by the way, the thing that's going on in America right now, one might say, which is the incredible extremes in politics. politics like you know you kind of you almost have to fall into one or other group of extremists to polarisation yeah the polarisation that's the word this is supes

1:10:04Kay:versus normies

1:10:04Andrew Lincoln:yes yes what did you say supes versus normies that's the

1:10:08Kay:super heroes versus normal people got it got it like James versus us us being the superheroes yeah okay we are running rapidly out of time so let's just say Gen V is available on Prime Video

1:10:21Andrew Lincoln:Wednesday the 17th of September 2025 super

1:10:24Kay:finally this week we have series two of Juice on BBC3. And this is Mawana Rizwan's somewhat surreal comedy, also starring Nabhan Rizwan and Russell Tovey, and follows Jammer, and he is a complete idiot. And it basically follows him as he tries to navigate work and relationships, and in this episode, nipple-centric artwork, which is lovely. Kay. Yes. Has this got the juice? It has. This is my jam. Your jammer, in fact. Well, I mean, James, come on. Oh, sorry, did I just trample all over your joke? Oh, wow. you sort of explained it but that's fine I did sorry it's all good I've gone full partridge yeah I've always really enjoyed it as you say I find it joyfully surreal I know what's coming from me so I'm just going to like ignore you and your facial expressions right now it's always best

1:11:13Andrew Lincoln:to just ignore it generally best when it comes to comedy yeah generally best one I think is a genius he won a BAFTA for this and it is so incredibly inventive and fun and surreal I just want to spend I was going to say I want to spend like an hour in his brain and some would say this is this is half an hour in his brain but outside of TV because it must just be a fantastic place to reside I enjoy so Jammer now as you say he's like he's directionless he is literally a clown or as he calls it an event entertainment facilitator and I'm not even saying

1:11:45Kay:like Mawana Rizwan literally did clown training like that's actually something that he's done yeah because he's drawn from his own experiences oh my god amazing okay I didn't know that which adds to my enjoyment of it. And Guy, his ex, played by Russell Tovey, he's now moved on from flighty, immature men, and he's writing a book. And when the first episode, so I think it's shown in a double bill, isn't it? Yes. Yeah. The first episode, they meet again. And for me, I just think these two, like Moan and Russell, have such a fantastic chemistry. That is like, I mean, beyond the creativity, it's that element of it because you know I love a bit of relationship drama the tender looks and the chemistry between them I cannot get enough of it right but also it's just the fun element so episode 2 there's a nod to 80s American sitcoms Jammer imagines his life through that lens I just love it I find it really funny and particularly there's a moment in the first episode where it involves a paint pot Drinking out of a paint pot in the kitchen episode, in the scene, which I think just highlights Mwan's excellent comic timing and Russell's reaction shots.

1:13:00Kay:I'm just going to say my piece, Boydie. You go ahead, mate. Right. You say what you need to say. He's deployed mate. I don't like this show. I don't like it, and I don't find it funny. But, but, and frankly, when this started, and it starts with a very surreal running sequence, which is quite painterly, because all of this is like, his inner life kind of spills out into the world around him, and everything becomes very surreal. There's a bit where he dives into a sofa and goes into a weird sofa universe. And it's just, I mean, for me, it's just too silly. That's the line, incidentally. Exploding bums, fine.

1:13:28Kay:Yeah, exactly. If they'd have been exploding bums, I'd have been all over it. But all of that said, I think Mawana Rizwan is a great physical comedian, and I think he writes it really well, but there's also heart to that character. I also think watching this, there's nothing else like it on television. Like, it feels very distinct and original, and I do absolutely applaud that. I was not enjoying this at all until a point about halfway through the episode when your friend Russell Tovey turns up. And I think it's exactly as you said. Those two on screen together are electric. And it's the eye contact and the little sort of like the cues between them, the glances.

1:14:01Kay:There's a bit where there's some other guy at the party and there's a look there. And I was, despite myself, tittering away to myself. And then there's a whole, shall we say, love sequence after that that on paper I would not enjoy. But really, I thought it was so well conceived and executed but I was just like I don't like this show but I really do appreciate that it's very well made and actually while it isn't 100 % for me you know comedy wise they're very good and I think those two on screen together are fantastic and isn't it like like Moana's like isn't it like his mum's in it as well like it's a family affair and I love his dynamic with his brother in it like I do think the character stuff works very well and if I was on board with this kind of surrealist slapstick humour I think I'd really enjoy it but because I am a shallow soulless husk of a humourless person I did not but that's a good point you raise because it is like it's so well executed yes and that's the thing because there could be like more you know inferior performers or production companies that this would have just not been as much of a success but yeah they carry it off very well with aplomb oh I mean

1:15:03Andrew Lincoln:it's brilliantly done yeah it's like the it looks like the budget of you know a show 100 times more expensive than this the flights of fantasy are brilliantly done it's all it's all dramatising stuff going on inside his head. So I think, I mean, let's not get into it. The you not liking it is so, like, it's not really slapstick. There are slapstick moments, but it will utilize any and every comedic method in the creator's arsenal, shall we say. And that, in my opinion, is the best thing about it. As you said, in the second episode, it suddenly utilizes this American sitcom kind of form in a really interesting way.

1:15:44Andrew Lincoln:it's got these visually it's astonishing there's these visual kind of coups that happen that are just beautifully well done look on James' face this is basically this is the best kind of fever dream yeah but when it comes down to it's about these people and their lives and their relationships as you say the Russell Tovey character guy who is the therapist and he's such a mature daddy in his mature daddy era and because Mawain's character is so childish and childlike it's that contrast that works so brilliantly and is so kind of believable. And now his brother is trying to become an artist with the pictures of the nipples and denying their nipples.

1:16:19Andrew Lincoln:There's obviously nipples, all of that. So you get a little peek into the art world of pretentious art people as well, which adds a whole load to the comedy. It's just a fantastic achievement, I think. You know, particularly when you consider, this must be on some kind of BBC, but obviously I'm massively biased because I know, Russell, I'm going to launch of it tonight, of course. Oh, lucky devil. Curzon, whichever one it's in. so yeah it's a fabulous show also I just want to give a shout out to Jammer's helmet hair as well Jammer's hair is extraordinary yes I mean remember they came on the Pilot TV Live podcast of course as well Friends of the Pod yeah and I think Mawarim talked about how he wrote himself having this ridiculous haircut and now can't get rid of it it's become too entwined with the character it's an extraordinary

1:17:05Kay:kind of bowl cut that he wears it's brilliant yeah Juice then BBC3 and iPlayer.

1:17:11Andrew Lincoln:Thursday. Thursday, 18th of September, nine o 'clock, I should say double bill, and then it's all on the iPlayer from that day, indeed.

1:17:18Kay:Also out this week, we of course have The Morning Show, which airs on Apple TV Plus on Wednesday, and we're going to be reviewing that on Pilot Plus. Tulsa King returns, that's on Paramount Plus, and that turns up on Sunday the 21st. Is there anything else this week? Yeah, there's a new show called

1:17:33Andrew Lincoln:Doc on Sky Witness, Slush Now, which is a new American medical drama series starring Molly Pogger from out of Deadwood. High Potential Season 2 is on Disney Plus from Wednesday. Bring it on. Which we reviewed Season 1. I think we all liked it quite a lot. And Fawlty Towers the Play, James. Do you remember that? I did. We went to see it. We did on a big night out. When you didn't invite me. Yeah. Well, the good news, Kay, is you can see it now because they filmed it and it's going to be on You and Gold on Friday at 9 o 'clock. Yeah. Very exciting. It's the 50th anniversary of the first airing of Fawlty Towers.

1:18:05Kay:Do you know what's just happened, Boydie? What? You have recommended a TV show and I'm live now on the podcast adding it to my list. How exciting is he? What, Falsy Sowers? Yeah. You saw it? I saw it on stage. I want to watch it again on telly.

1:18:17Andrew Lincoln:Yeah, fair enough. I honestly cannot figure this guy out. Oh, I know. He's in the ground and with him on this one. I'll be watching it as well. No, I will as well but there's just no rhyme or reason to what he says.

1:18:29Kay:I'm inscrutable. Do you know what? This is juice. We're living it now. Like in his mouth. Mad fantasy sequence. Boyd is actually made of cake. Feed for Drew. If only. True story. Okay, right, what's our pick of the week? Juice. Yeah, juice. It's Gen V for me. Of course it is, of course it is. Of course it is. The man who loves an exploding bum. I do, I do love an exploding bum. Flip that bit. Amazing. Right, that's it for this week's podcast. If you don't already, please do follow us on social media. And follow me on TikTok and Instagram, at jamescdour. Thank you very much. Can I just say, I've had more than one message going, wait, is James really on TikTok?

1:19:06and I was like, yes, yes he is.

1:19:09Kay:Yes, find me there. How is the influencing going? Not well. But the lesser of that, the better. I don't know. I'm tempted to now get the app just so I can follow you. I am influencing precisely no one, but I want the followers, so please do come follow me. His ego needs the followers. I do. Please jump on board. And do you leave us a five-star rating on whatever platform you should choose? We would appreciate that very much. On next week's show, we are going to have Christopher Chung, Roddy Ho himself on the show, talking to Boydie. And that's exciting because that means, yes, you guessed it, Slow Horses is back on Apple TV+.

1:19:41Kay:And we will hopefully be reviewing that if the embargo allows it. Other things that are on, Stephen Knight's House of Guinness will be arriving on Netflix. Wayward is also arriving on Netflix. A lot of things going on this week. Yeah, that's right. Friend of the pod. The Hack. What about that? Yeah. Hacks on. Hacks on, hacks off. And the Savant. Oh, yes, the Savant Apple TV+. That's Jessica Chastain. Is that how you say it? I wasn't even sure. The Savant. Savant. you say potato I say potato you say Henri I say Henry yeah that's true right that is it we are done for this week I'm going to head off home a 25 minute walk ahead of me I'm going to have to steal myself watch your back pilot's out