Cape Fear, Alice And Steve, and The Witness. With guests Nicola Walker and Jemaine Clement

10:04Nicola Walker:Okay, so they buried him alive. Buried him alive and with the air

10:07Jemaine Clement:vent sticking up into the ground a snake got in there and kills him basically and poor Sydney How did she find out?

10:17Nicola Walker:I'm well into this now

10:19Jemaine Clement:One of the other gangsters is cooperating into betraying the other gangster that did this and blah blah blah

10:26Nicola Walker:And she was looking for him obviously

10:28Jemaine Clement:So she went along with the sales scheme so they could find out they could rescue him and then it turns out he was killed by the snake and the snake killing scene is torture by the way so I'm trying not to bang on for ages but just characters left by the wayside because he could not focus because he was so obsessed with this main story that was just like a million gangster films you've ever seen and directed and written as such by superior talents than him and I have to admit that because I'm so hyper aware of him as the creator of this show I'm being slightly unfair I definitely like you bring your views of a creative figure you know he's an epa baby right in himself he's Barry Levinson's son he's a very divisive figure he made the terrible HBO series The Idol do you remember that which was which was horrendously terrible

11:20Nicola Walker:but didn't wasn't that didn't people like The Idol

11:23Jemaine Clement:no no did they not okay no it's critically panned even more than this has been okay and I take on board lots of people said to me but there are lots of you know you can't judge it yet well now we've seen the whole thing and I think the general critical consensus not that I particularly desperately to follow the general critical consensus is that this third series has been and I go back to my original phrasing a disaster.

11:44Nicola Walker:Oh I've just seen the idol one of the worst programmes ever made. Yeah. I thought I'd read the other day because somebody somebody wrote in with a question I thought I'd read that people people actually generally liked the idol even though it had been critically banned. No.

11:56Jemaine Clement:It was absolutely terrible. And that was very explosive Lily Rose Depp at the time I was going to say

12:01Nicola Walker:that's what I remember about it.

12:02Jemaine Clement:So articles go there's an article in Variety today saying, you know, I was thinking of taking out some of the sex scenes and nudity, Sam Levinson, but Sidney Sweeney persuaded me to keep it in. I'm like, you're just trying to cover your ass because you know you've...

12:17Nicola Walker:You literally don't want to cover your ass. Yeah, exactly. Uncover.

12:20Jemaine Clement:There's so many uncovered asses in this series. But that's just a side point. The main point is the whole of the third season has just dissipated into a different... It just became a different show. Characters changed. Jacob Elordi just transformed into a different character. and you know Sidney Sweeney's half the time she's this kind of idiotic person being led along by someone else to do these OnlyFans videos and then half the time she bursts out with some profound bit of insight into life the universe and everything it's so inconsistent and all over the place it's just a gigantic mess I can't emphasize enough how bad it is so it's a real shame because I wanted it to be a great third final season of what's been a brilliant show

12:58Nicola Walker:did we always know this was going to be the final season no no by the way

13:01Jemaine Clement:sorry that's a good point I think a lot of people assumed this was going to be the final show but HBO didn't make any announcement to that effect and nor did Sam Levinson only after it went out did HBO confirm that was the end I think they didn't want people to sit back and go we're going to judge this finale now give us your because it became it was such a ramshackle mess in the end and then suddenly by the way the last 20 minutes of the thing went so it's a big spoiler now so Rue dies from an overdose

13:27Nicola Walker:which I think everybody like you say everybody knows that she dies

13:30Jemaine Clement:and her 12-step program kind of guru, whatever you call it. Sponsor. Thank you. Colman Domingo. Thank you. Pay for Colman Domingo. He gets, he just suddenly takes over the whole show for the last 20 minutes. Almost half an hour. And goes on a rip-roaring rampage of revenge and kills Adewale Akidnoye Agbache. There you go. You've summed it up even though you won't watch it yet. Even though I've never watched it, I know exactly what happens. And so even that, and that was like, again, very well done. You know, he's brilliant, obviously. Well, Colman Domingo's amazing. Colman Domingo's fantastic.

14:01Jemaine Clement:what's this got to do with euphoria it's just a different thing just make a film with Conor Domingo as a 12 step programme person and that's fine so yeah oh my god it was exhausting you could call it 12 bloody steps and it would be all about his rip roaring rampage of revenge you're right so I'm not doing this out of any great appetite to slag it off I just found it you just say what you think gigantically disappointing I think it's one of the big disappointments, TV disappointments of recent times. Wow. This whole season. The opposite. Dysphoria. Wow. Yes, exactly. I mean, if anyone disagrees, please do let me know.

14:39Jemaine Clement:Yeah, Sam, if you're listening to the podcast, and I know you are, do feel free to address all of your complaints to Relly DeVoy. Well, funny enough, this morning I was offered an interview with the costume designer of Euphoria and boasting about her incredible costumes, like for the strippers. I'm like, well... Oh, my God.

14:54Nicola Walker:This is the worst person to offer. Must have been the cheapest costumes you've ever made.

14:57Jemaine Clement:a little thin bit of cotton every now and then

15:02Nicola Walker:let's talk about how you how you came with all these thongs exactly

15:06Jemaine Clement:on the plus side the finale of Hacks which I haven't had time to mention which I caught up with is fantastic Hacks you know the classic yeah of course that finale was a couple of weeks ago totally forgot to mention it and that's how to do a TV I know it's a completely different genre it's a comedy but they handled that so well beautiful you know the relationship between the older comedian and the writer and how it all played out in a very I won't spoil that because you'll spoil things

15:30Nicola Walker:that you don't like exactly

15:32Jemaine Clement:but I urge if you haven't caught up yet with the hack you're a hack fan aren't you

15:35Nicola Walker:I haven't I'm so far behind that I don't feel like like seasons behind yeah I'm seasons behind

15:40Jemaine Clement:and now you're watching bloody Kevin Costner

15:43Nicola Walker:I told you my heart belongs to Yellowstone yeah

15:45Jemaine Clement:well that's great so I would strongly recommend that and finally Tiptoe as this goes out Rusty Davis' the first two episodes have gone out I think were a big hit and massive critical success

15:55Nicola Walker:people are loving Tiptoe people are loving it

15:56Jemaine Clement:and the final three episodes are available as of today I believe Monday as this podcast goes out and they're on Sunday, Monday, Tuesday live on Channel 4 but I think it's been a huge triumph for it

16:07Nicola Walker:oh god that's so I won't even mention

16:09Jemaine Clement:the coverage of the Champions League that I attended in

16:12Nicola Walker:yeah

16:12Jemaine Clement:lots of people have said I needed to be particularly nice to you on this podcast but I did think this is good because you had been unduly smug at the previous one football wise so I think you look chastened now that's fair but actually in the end it was a brilliant experience to go to... Thanks to TNT Sport for looking out for me. Oh, yes. Part of the TNT HBO family. So there was... Oh, Matt Smith. HBO invited you to something else, did they? Good to know. Indeed, they did. I don't think I told you this. Matt Smith was there promoting Year of the Dragon. So they had CrossFit. House of the Dragon.

16:41Jemaine Clement:House of the Dragon. Year of the Dragon. Brilliant. Year of the Dragon. We're just going to... Oh, I love Year of the Dragon. It's great. Sorry.

16:50Nicola Walker:You're having quite the week, you are.

16:51Jemaine Clement:I can't remember anyone's name. Barry, Sam, Levinson, whatever. Anyway, we'll get to this quite a week later. I know what you're alluding to. But, yeah, no, Matt Smith was having a lovely chat with him about House of the Dragon. And he was there for the final, for the Champions League final in Budapest. And we had a lovely chat and he was so nice. And he told me how good the next season of House of the Dragon.

17:14Nicola Walker:Oh, I've been invited to that.

17:16Jemaine Clement:The premiere. Yeah. Same, yeah. But we need to watch it before then, so I think.

17:19Nicola Walker:No, yeah, that's true.

17:20Jemaine Clement:Anyway, yeah. So, yeah, that was my one. I was thinking, oh, James will at least appreciate this moment if nothing else. Yes, that's true, I do. Yeah, yeah. But he was great. There you go. So I went bang on about the TV coverage of the Champions League final that I went to courtesy of TNT. Well, you didn't watch it on TV so you're not allowed to. Oh, God. Well, I did record it on TV actually and watch some of it back like a sick, twisted person I am. Of course you did. Of course you did. But I needed to because I had to do my other podcast about it. So, yeah. Anyway, let's move on. What did you do?

17:49Jemaine Clement:Well, you know what's desperate watching. Oh, yeah.

17:50Nicola Walker:I also watched something else as well. Did you know? Yes, I did. because I had time, because I'd watched those five episodes before our spoiler special. You know how much I love a sports documentary, a sports person documentary. We've covered this before. You know, I have no discernible talent in any way for lots of things, but 100 % sport. Like, there is nothing, like, if you threw a ball at me now, I would not be able to catch it. I just can't do anything. Let's test it out. But it makes me, I'm so in awe of anyone who is accomplished at any kind of sport. I think it's amazing. So I love...

18:27Jemaine Clement:Is that why you married Liam, who is an ex-footballer?

18:31Nicola Walker:No, no, because you remember I met him when I was 12 and it's like, you know, that kind of thing, you know, silly.

18:37Jemaine Clement:Crucially, he was also 12. It's not really weird.

18:41Nicola Walker:Yes, it's a childhood sweetheart situation. It's not, yeah, sorry. It's not euphoria. It's all fine. But yeah, I love sports documentaries because I just find them, utterly engrossing and fascinating. And there's a new one out on Rafa Nadal and it's called Rafa. And it's four episodes and it's absolutely brilliant. Now, I was hooked. I love Rafa Nadal anyway who's retired and it's all about kind of his journey and he's had lots of injuries. I know, I know

19:11Jemaine Clement:because our very own Liz Moody on Empire is a Rafa fanatic that was when he played tennis.

19:16Nicola Walker:Liz, Lizzie, is such a fanatic. She literally followed him. I think she went to Australia once actually to follow him. She followed him everywhere. She loved him.

19:23Jemaine Clement:She was a massive Rafa fan.

19:25Nicola Walker:So I can only imagine what's happening when she's watching this because it's amazing. But what I love is how you just get to see this with the sports documentary to get to this whole other side and I'm just going to say in the first five minutes he's having his body measured with like calipers. They measure the body fat and he says with a completely straight face I'm not going to attempt to do his accent. I have a problem. It is chocolate related.

19:51Jemaine Clement:and it just sets the tone man off your own heart exactly

19:54Nicola Walker:it sets the tone for the whole thing and then throughout they do show old footage of him and in one of the pieces of footage where he's in a very serious press conference he's also eating an almond magnum at the same time I slowly and so I loved him for there's a magnum theme

20:10Jemaine Clement:to this episode aren't there that's true magnums will come up later magnums will come up later in the podcast

20:15Nicola Walker:well yeah so it's absolutely brilliant so it kind of starts with his defining moment when he beat Andy Roddick in the Davis Cup final. And yeah, it's wonderful. Even if you don't care about sport, I find sports documentaries so interesting because it's about the person. It's a great human interest story. It's wonderful. So please do watch that. Four episodes on the Netflix. Is that four? No, it's not four, is it? Make four episodes as Steph holds up three fingers. There's four episodes. I was counting the pen. as I'm going to have my fourth finger.

20:51Jemaine Clement:Right. Four episodes, three fingers, two drops of the partridge.

20:56Nicola Walker:But do you know what? By next week, I'm also going to watch because on my sofa list, I never mentioned my sofa list, I have seen some snippets of the Eddie Murphy AFI tribute. Have you seen any snippets of that? Which is supposed to be hilariously funny. And it is.

21:09Jemaine Clement:Yeah, I have seen snippets of it. Yeah, I think.

21:11Nicola Walker:And then obviously, I need to start four seasons the second season.

21:14Jemaine Clement:Four seasons?

21:15Nicola Walker:The second season of four seasons.

21:17Jemaine Clement:If there aren't four seasons for that show, they've missed a track.

21:19Nicola Walker:They really have.

21:20Jemaine Clement:Four Seasons is another show that I watch and enjoy and forget to mention because I have watched the first couple of episodes. Have you watched the first? And it's great. All right, don't tell me anything. It's still really good. I didn't enjoy the first season. I know.

21:31Nicola Walker:Why? Why didn't you?

21:32Jemaine Clement:I don't know. Because as has been established this morning when Beth Webb, previously of this parish, took me to task for my lack of appreciation of Widow's Bay by declaring it an absolute masterpiece. I'm a complete fucking idiot, apparently.

21:45Nicola Walker:It's honestly one of my favourite things that's ever happened on this podcast when you were right that I was I was right about something I mean I just honestly I was so good but he still hasn't

21:56Jemaine Clement:acknowledged that I've acknowledged it's possibly true I'm not I'm not gonna I'm not gonna try and maintain that it's a terrible show I will say that I definitely didn't enjoy the first episode struggled to get through it and hated every second of it it is possible if I watch more episodes I might like it more or maybe it's just not for me I don't know but I'm willing to accept the problem is me hi it's me I'm the problem it's me Was there the problem with you as well with the four seasons? It's been so long since I've sawn it. I've so long since I've sawn it. I can't 100 % say. But yes, it seems possible that that again is me.

22:29Jemaine Clement:It's a lovely show. I really like it. It's a lovely show. That's a real hangout with good characters type of show.

22:35Nicola Walker:Well, that feels to me very Rooster-ish, which I feel like you also didn't like. Also true. Rooster. Rooster, which I loved. Which one was that? It's the Steve Carell on campus thing. for me it's got the same kind of vibes similar tone yeah you didn't like that either did you? it was fine

22:52Jemaine Clement:I think Four Seasons is better than Rooster I've decided I think so

22:56Nicola Walker:I'm going to take you to task over that why? Rooster you didn't watch all of Rooster though did you?

23:03Jemaine Clement:I think it's less I think it's more naturalistic more kind of authentic has a real I think the dialogue is better I liked Rooster but yeah of the two I would go for the four seasons. Boy, do you always go for the four seasons? I do. Bear in mind, I am a huge fan of the original 1981 film written, directed and starring Alan Wilder. So, you know.

23:25Nicola Walker:Okay, fine. I'm going to let that go. But I really think that if you watched the whole of the first season of Rooster, you'd have a different opinion of it. I'm not going to call this a Widow's Bay, but I do think you would. It's not a Widow's Bay.

23:36Jemaine Clement:No. It's not a full...

23:37Nicola Walker:Oh, it's so far from a Widow's Bay.

23:38Jemaine Clement:No, no. It's not a full reverse film. Can I ask you a Widow's Bay question?

23:41Nicola Walker:Yeah.

23:42Jemaine Clement:So, the interwebs is that so my main issue i think with the first episode of widow's bay is i didn't love the characters i didn't find the story to be kind of doing a lot and i didn't find it funny but from what i gather it's not really leaning into comedy it leans into horror more than comedy as the show goes along the comedy is kind of like a second tier thread to the like horror narrative so is there a chance I would enjoy it from a horror perspective if not from a comedy perspective yeah

24:15Nicola Walker:yes there is every chance that you would but I really don't understand why you didn't like the characters from episode one the set up of the characters in that office is brilliant

24:25Jemaine Clement:I know I can believe we're going through it

24:26Nicola Walker:because it's worth it

24:27Jemaine Clement:I think it is true that as it goes on the horror thing

24:31Nicola Walker:it's more defined as a horror genre

24:33Jemaine Clement:and also because you now know the characters yes they're not trying to be funny. They're not visibly trying. Whereas I think I kind of agreed with James in the first episode. I thought, do you remember, that was one of my qualms with it was I felt that performance-wise, quite a few of the characters were trying too hard to be comedic. And by the time it settles down, after almost two, three episodes, that is never a problem ever again. And by the time you get to the latter stages where the horror is taking over, it works brilliantly because they're still actually funny. It's character-driven. comedy, humour, but absolutely brilliantly entwined with the horror stuff.

25:13Jemaine Clement:So that's one of the best things about it, becomes just how cleverly it still manages to be funny, even when horrific things are happening and it's scary. You do make me want to revisit it. You should, you won't

25:24Nicola Walker:regret it. And even though, as I'm going to bring it up again, one of Boyd's major issues was that he thought people were talking too loudly in the first episode. I would say they're quietened down. Well, as we discovered off

25:36Jemaine Clement:mic, it's possible to turn the volume down on things so that they're not as loud. There was a lot of shouting. It's just a lot of shouting. By the way, a lot of my obsessions, like corridors, have been proven to be rather on point because there was an article in The Guardian that many people sent me, by the way, saying about the 10 best corridor sequences in films and stuff. And so, you know, and now the back rooms is very corridor based. So, you know, sometimes my finger is on the nub.

26:00Nicola Walker:Your finger's always on the nub. My finger wasn't on the volume control which is what James is alluding to. because I had to stop if you listeners I had to stop and say I don't think my headphones are working and it was just that I hadn't turned the volume up that's what it was

26:14Jemaine Clement:I particularly enjoyed the part where you said why would anyone turn the volume down on headphones and then you immediately went to hear things less loud that was what we were talking about it was quite shouty the opening episode I thought it was shouty

26:26Nicola Walker:it wasn't it was a bit shouty you were just in a sensitive ear time

26:30Jemaine Clement:no it was a bit shouty who was shouty Not as shouting as a scary movie, by the way, in which every line of dialogue is yelled at an extraordinary volume, as if that's going to make it funnier. But he was a bit shouting. Matthew Reeds was a bit shouting.

26:45Nicola Walker:Yes, and we talked about this already. We've been through this because exasperation, like it's happening to me now, exasperation requires volume. It does.

26:54Jemaine Clement:As James would say, does it know?

26:56Nicola Walker:Does it know? Oh, you two are really getting my go today.

27:01Jemaine Clement:Let's move on. James, what have you been watching? Well, I watched the allocated episodes of Yellowstone that I was supposed to watch, no more, no less. Oh, right. The whole of season two.

27:10Nicola Walker:That is ten episodes.

27:13Jemaine Clement:So, yes, I did watch all of season two of Yellowstone. If you want to hear us talk about it for literally half an hour on the most recent Pilot Plus, then God help you, we do.

27:22Nicola Walker:But he loves it. You love it, don't you?

27:24Jemaine Clement:I'm enjoying it enormously. So, yes, our adventures in the Yellowstone-iverse continue.

27:28Nicola Walker:Are you enjoying me starting to send you things on Instagram that are related to Yellowstone because I sent you some Luke Grimes. You did.

27:36Jemaine Clement:Luke Grimes singing country music because there's nothing that man can't do. Casey is a Renaissance man.

27:41Nicola Walker:He's so wonderful.

27:42Jemaine Clement:So I watched that. For All Mankind, season five, finished.

27:46Nicola Walker:Oh, finally.

27:47Jemaine Clement:Well, you had to because you did your special. And Helen O 'Hara, your favourite boy. The legend. The legend that is Helen. We sat down and we chatted about it for a full half an hour. Plus, Helen spoke to the two showrunners and did a spoiler interview with them. and you can find our For All Mankind Spawner Special on Pilot Plus. But it was a lot of fun. And it's been a not controversial season, but it's been a season that certainly the audience has had notes on. I really liked it. Spoiler. But we get into the nitty-gritty of it all. Actually, episode one of this season of For All Mankind, I wasn't that keen on.

28:21Jemaine Clement:Not for shouty reasons. Wow.

28:23Nicola Walker:Seems to be your thing now.

28:24Jemaine Clement:Terrible aging makeup on...

28:26Nicola Walker:Oh, yeah, you've been to know.

28:27Jemaine Clement:What's his name? I mean, there's a lot on old Ed Baldwin. Joel Kinnaman Joel Kinnaman that's it yeah love the name I've forgotten

28:33Nicola Walker:have you watched have you watched the first season of Star City now I can't remember not the whole first season no

28:37Jemaine Clement:but that's definitely on the list yeah because I definitely watched more of that Star City's great

28:41Nicola Walker:yeah because you know I'm not doing Full Mankind I'm not doing that I've said it before I think that's fair

28:46Jemaine Clement:yeah you have a very Soviet aesthetic 50 hours of Full Mankind to get through I know you're keen but you know

28:54Nicola Walker:no I've gone full Star City I'm going to do Star City that's fine that's the side your sofa list

28:58Jemaine Clement:is getting more unmanageable than mine, to be fair. It's ridiculous. It's so unmanageable.

29:02Nicola Walker:Yeah, it's out of control.

29:04Jemaine Clement:Before she started doing this podcast, Steph had like a social life and free time and all sorts of things. Now not so much.

29:08Nicola Walker:I didn't do anything. I'm very boring. I'm at that age now where I can only enjoy events after they've happened. Do you know what I mean? It's like I don't like going to Steph, but after they've happened, I'm like, oh, that was okay. But whilst I'm there, I'm like, no, no, I'm very boring. Okay, well, good to know. Okay.

29:22Jemaine Clement:What else have I been watching? Your Friends and Neighbours also finished on Apple yes I watched that whole thing a very long time ago but that finally came to its conclusion I think the second season of that was great I really really enjoyed it and the way it sets up the third as well but all the stuff in particular with James Marsden I thought was really good really good stuff he was a breath of fresh air we've said it before

29:44Nicola Walker:like literally put James Marsden insert James Marsden into anything and he just makes it better

29:50Jemaine Clement:yeah

29:51Nicola Walker:anything anything true

29:52Jemaine Clement:good shit so yeah that was really good that's had its finale I also finished watching all the episodes that I have been provided with of the new season of Dark Matter on Apple and I know that there's generally disgruntlement sometimes when I'm talking about things that no one else can watch we will be reviewing Dark Matter when it airs but I think it airs till July

30:10Nicola Walker:what's Dark Matter again?

30:11Jemaine Clement:Dark Matter I told you about it's the one season one is available on Apple now and it is Joel Edgerton and he is a man who gets abducted by his double and taken to another dimension

30:20Nicola Walker:yes you explained it it was very confusing not to be confused

30:21Jemaine Clement:with Joel Kinnaman not to be confused with Joel Kinnaman yes But this is a, yeah, obviously I'm not going to spoil this particular season, but if you enjoyed the first one, which was based on Blake Crouch's novel, this is not based on a novel, but it is co-created, like Blake Crouch is involved in the second season.

30:34Nicola Walker:Yes, I remember. So he gets kidnapped and then I was like, oh, how do you know who's the original one? And they all think they're the original one. Basically, yeah. Yeah, this sounds good.

30:42Jemaine Clement:Boyd? Yeah. Yeah, no, I really enjoyed the first season. Okay. And I'm looking forward to it. There's a wrinkle in the first season, which kind of blows your mind ever slightly, which I won't spoil here. but it's to do with kind of multiversal decision making. And it kind of brings into question, like, you're like, oh, is this the real Jason, the real Jobbler? But it's like, well, actually, is there a real? Because they're not copies. So they're kind of all real. So it kind of blows your mind a little bit because you become unmoored from who your sympathies are with. Oh, God. An unmoored wrinkle.

31:17Jemaine Clement:An unmoored wrinkle. That's what you get. That's going to blow my mind. I definitely need

31:22Nicola Walker:I need to add that as well

31:24Jemaine Clement:yeah it's worth watching it's a lot of fun I'm not sure if it's a gathering though a gathering of it's a bit

31:29Nicola Walker:is it?

31:30Jemaine Clement:no I don't know you might take it it's a gathering of the same person yeah that's right I like a gathering

31:36Nicola Walker:I like an assemble well there are lots of

31:38Jemaine Clement:lots of Joel Edgitons in this lots of them is it an apocalyptic element? only to the extent that some of the worlds they go to are a bit apocalyptic yes that's right that's what I was thinking of

31:48Nicola Walker:does Joel have to start again? at any point in any of the multi-places.

31:54Jemaine Clement:To the extent that at one point, if he's marooned on another world, he has to find a job. But it's not really starting again like society. It's starting again financially. Well, that's fine. Yeah, that's fine. Okay, we're all right with that. Brilliant. Okay, we are going to move on to this week's guests at this point. And it's Nicola Walker and Jermaine Clement who came to this very studio. If you listened to last week's Pilot Plus, then you already know that they were our guests because they turned up while we were recording Pilot Plus.

32:24Nicola Walker:And we're very lucky they did turn up aren't we Boyd?

32:26Jemaine Clement:Yes we are because they dropped by to talk about their new Disney Plus show Alice and Steve in which two best friends were coming broiled in a sort of an escalating feud after Steve begins dating Alice's 26 year old daughter and they arrived just as we were recording Pilot Plus and we made a decision didn't we Steph and that decision was to send Boyd down to reception to get them. I volunteered.

32:47Nicola Walker:And you know what But I'm just going to say again, you volunteered because you didn't want to send me because you thought it would be a bit like, oh, you know. Sexist. Yeah, you thought it'd be sexist. Let's send the girl. Send the lady. Send the admin girl to go do the meet and greet.

33:01Jemaine Clement:I put it to you that we really should have said stuff. Obviously, in retrospect, yeah. But Lil, did you know that I wanted to do my own remake of Backrooms, the critically acclaimed horror film, and I wanted to enter the liminal spaces of my own office where I've been working for years and years and years. We didn't know that. And so I got lost in the middle of the corridors and these weird spaces that were neither there nor not there or real or imaginary. And the cast of the show and their publicist were stranded in their own area while I got lost.

33:37Nicola Walker:And I was waving to you as well from the window. Were you? Yeah, I was waving to you.

33:41Jemaine Clement:Was it a bit like that scene in Labyrinth where they're just going up different staircases and kind of like, where is he going? Where is he? The communications are very confusing. Yeah. No, I mean, it was one of the most embarrassing experiences of my life, yeah. The best part of it is when you sent us a desperate text. I finally asked you. Where am I? Which floor are we on? But you know what, yeah. Which studio are we in? Yeah. But the explanation, listener, is that we recorded on a different floor to the normal floor. We're on the, we're on, right now, we're here on the second floor. And that's where all the studios are.

34:11Jemaine Clement:And so I forgot that we did this thing yesterday on the third floor.

34:15Nicola Walker:Yeah, yeah. I mean, it was a studio you'd just come out of. But I know what you mean. I mean, you had... Well, funnily enough,

34:22Jemaine Clement:we were dilly-dallying a bit on the way as well. So, because a coffee was bought and toilets were visited. So there was a little bit... I didn't spend the entire time trying to find a studio. You worked a good quarter of an hour.

34:33Nicola Walker:Yeah, James and I had quite a lengthy conversation and then I went, it's been a while.

34:37Jemaine Clement:Yeah, no, things happened in the remake of the horror film. Yeah. Just to kind of build the tension.

34:43Nicola Walker:You should have sent me an SOS earlier. Yeah.

34:46Jemaine Clement:Oh, no, I know. You really should. I'm fully aware. Luckily, they're all absolutely fine about it. They were, yes. Although I'm sure it would probably be a nice story for their junket they're doing today in America for the show when they can tell the story of this stupid British journalist who got lost in his own building. No, you're lovely.

35:00Nicola Walker:We're not to mention it anymore because I know that you were mortified.

35:04Jemaine Clement:I was mortified. We did end up talking about back rooms quite extensively when we got into the studio. Yes, yes. Since they just relived it. Yeah, they were fascinated by it, yeah. Anyway. Anyway, anyway, Here are, presumably quite out of breath, Jermaine Clement and Nicola Walker having had an extensive tour of the Pilot TV offices. Well, Jermaine, Nicola, welcome to the show. Before you arrived, we were having a conversation about stressful viewing experiences. And we were talking about a number of different shows. Where's this leading? Well, funny you should ask that. There is a dinner party in the second episode of this show, which is one of the most stressful viewing experiences of my life.

35:39Jemaine Clement:I've never thought that chewing magnums could cause me that much anxiety. it's quite extraordinary I wondered what you made of that whole approach to comedy because it's humour, very funny but also excruciatingly squirm inducing

35:53Nicola Walker:Yeah, aggressive salad and magnum eating

35:57Jemaine Clement:I can still feel how sweaty I was on that day

36:01Nicola Walker:Yeah, and there's also the other complication is you have to decide and we did all discuss it around that table, there's a lot of actors in that scene nearly all of us

36:08Jemaine Clement:We had to do it a lot of times because of that as well everyone has to get their angle coverage of everybody

36:13Nicola Walker:so we were all discussing how we were going to eat the magnum because we knew we'd eat a lot of magnums and I I thought I played a blinder I took some ice cream off the top so I thought I've got this sussed and then I looked down the end of the table and I saw Jermaine eating his magnum just in the first take eating half a magnum and I thought oh you're done you're done for the rest of the day you're eating 24 magnums

36:38Jemaine Clement:yeah I committed to eating in this show. Did you backfire, Massouli? Did you feel ill? I think I didn't need any dinner, but like eight magnums isn't a good dinner.

36:50Nicola Walker:It's a classic point of drama, isn't it? The dinner party. And there have been some great dinner parties in dramas over the years that I can think of. But I mean, that one was very easy to make uncomfortable because Alice is on such a role and no one wants to tell her to sit down and be quiet. because she is her house.

37:12Jemaine Clement:Everything she's doing is so subtle that it's hard to actually tell her not to do anything.

37:17Nicola Walker:She knows how to protect herself. She doesn't quite step over the line of incredibly rude.

37:21Jemaine Clement:Yeah, well, until she does.

37:23Nicola Walker:And then she goes over it happily.

37:26Jemaine Clement:It's a brilliantly observed scene, that, because as you say, you're with her all the way right up until you're not. You're not. Because there is a line, and it is, I think it's, you peek with the Woody Allen conversation, which is monumentally uncomfortable. But then after that, we start to think, oh, actually, Steve's really nice and he's really genuine and he's really authentic. Yeah. And you're like, Alice is a bit of a monster.

37:50Nicola Walker:Yes, yeah. Which is brilliant writing, I think. You sort of lurch from one person to another. And in the end, you realise there's no one to actually blame and equally no one to bless, which I think is really great writing.

38:05Jemaine Clement:When you first got the script and you saw how potentially monstrous she gets. And by the way, fully within her rights to be horrible. I think so, yeah. It's quite a unique role for you, isn't it, to have someone who's so much fun and at the same time can be so horrible, that potential to be horrible.

38:21Nicola Walker:I think it's generally quite unusual for me and I think it's unusual for a female character anyway. I think men often get to play that line. I don't know many, many female characters that do. And I think Sophie's writing keeps her on the right side of, you know, I think the audience understand. Because it's exactly as you say, you're with her, you're with her, and then you want to go, Alice, that's too far. But she's gone, and not only has she gone too far, she's going to take it even further.

38:50Jemaine Clement:The escalation is quite something to behold.

38:53Nicola Walker:Which is a wonderful thing to play, yeah.

38:54Jemaine Clement:I'm fascinated by the jobs that writers assign to their main characters. And you're a fashion designer.

39:00Nicola Walker:Well, at a very low grade.

39:01Jemaine Clement:Well, maybe. Children's underwear. Fair enough. It's quite niche. The children's underwear, by the way, slideshow. Let's never forget that. And your character, Germain, is a hairdresser to the stars. Stylist, Boyd. Stylist. Stylist. Now, do you do research into that? Did you meet stylists to the stars? No. Well, I met my own hairstylist. I'm not sure whether I'm a star. But I got him to show me how to hold the scissors, which was, you know, You used actually different fingers to normal scissors that you would cut people with. I didn't know. You used the middle finger. Do you? Yeah. Is there a reason for that?

39:40Jemaine Clement:I don't know. That's how they designed. Maybe you get more dexterity. Yeah, perhaps. I mean, we'd probably go to different barbers to do that. Yeah, same. Yeah. And as a clothes designer, very specific, as you say, not peak. But she's also into her clothes and she's into her style and everything. So that is another level, isn't it, into the character?

40:00Nicola Walker:Yeah, and we had a brilliant costume designer who was making me try things on that I would say, I can't wear this, I'm far too old to wear this. And he would quite rightly say, but Alice wears this because she works in disposable fashion, which is all about young people. And it's not that we didn't want her to look like she's clinging on to being young because that was what I loved about the script as well. I don't get the feeling that she's that sort of woman. She's just a woman who doesn't really care. She's not going to be judged by you. So she wears what she wants to wear, which I think is really interesting.

40:30Jemaine Clement:Jermaine, you said, you have said, that you were worried that Steve would come across as a bit creepy. Was that a concern? How do you shore up against that? Yeah, I was arguing that Izzy, you know, she's 26 in the script. I was arguing that she could be older, because I could have an older than 26. Yeah, I was trying to make a less of an age gap. but Yali Topol, Margalitha plays as he's so charismatic that I think she's actually a great person to play that. And yeah, I don't know. I don't know if people will find him creepy. I don't think he does come across as creepy. I think she is key, isn't she?

41:10Jemaine Clement:Yes. She's kind of more the adult in the room often than either of you. Always, in fact, indeed. So she's so brilliantly three-dimensional and you kind of absolutely believe that she would find, you know. Yes. I agree. And I think that's quite generationally true is our generation has not grown up. And I know people who are in their 20s and they have get-togethers where they discuss the politics of the day. Me and my mates are never doing that. They probably play video games, I don't know.

41:40Nicola Walker:Yeah, yeah.

41:41Jemaine Clement:We're still having jams. Yeah, absolutely. And Joel Fry, playing your husband, he's also key because he's so kind of, there's an age gap there, which is pointed out by everyone else. But he's so kind of laid back. He's brilliant at playing the kind of seemingly laid back guy, isn't he? Who kind of just goes with the flow. It's different laid back to what you usually say. He's usually the fun mate. Right. Fun stoner mate. But here he's very held together.

42:08Nicola Walker:Yeah, again, until he's not.

42:09Jemaine Clement:Yeah.

42:10Nicola Walker:And there is lots of people at breaking points in this. I think that's where she pushes. Sophie Goodhart pushes you, every character, over the line. And that's when your allegiances swap around. It's like, run around. You're going to change your mind. You're back now. but Joel there's a scene where Alice and her husband played by Joel it breaks down their relationship breaks down and it happens in front of your eyes in that moment this seemingly solid marriage is possibly dead and the immediacy of that writing they're the scenes you look forward to they're the ones on a filming day you go in and there's a bit of a buzz in the air because it's happening right then and there.

42:53Jemaine Clement:You can see it for him it confirms something. He's suspected about Alice.

42:58Nicola Walker:Yeah. Yeah.

42:59Jemaine Clement:Which is really well done.

43:00Nicola Walker:He has a devastating line where he just says, I don't think I'm basically says, I don't think I'm in love with you anymore. And her reply is, um, oh full stop. I didn't know that.

43:11Jemaine Clement:Full stop.

43:12Nicola Walker:In those two lines you see something. It's heartbreaking.

43:15Jemaine Clement:It's a really heartbreaking moment. And those shifts, you know because there's some outright comedy in there which is And the whole tone is comedic, obviously. Yeah, when you read it, it's really funny. Right. But you could also read it again, but read it now as a drama. Yes. And it's really sad. Completely. And this does both. Do you know, like, when you read a script, because the dialogue in this really does crackle. I mean, when you pick up something like this and you look at it, you think, oh, right, this is special. This is something that stands apart from a lot. Because you must get sent an awful lot of things that are maybe not quite as on point as this.

43:47Nicola Walker:This is extraordinary. I would never say that. No, because we're open to all scripts. No, but this is, yes, this was one of those ones that came through and within the first page. And that's not, you know, I'm not making that up. I've said it a lot when we've been talking about it in publicity. The first page I was in.

44:09Jemaine Clement:It's kind of things like, can I, you know, you often think, how do I make this funny? And you don't think that. Maybe you think, how can I do this scene justice?

44:20Nicola Walker:yeah I felt when I finished reading the first few episodes that was the other thing the scripts were there before we started that's really unusual now but I read the first few episodes and I thought okay these work beautifully on the page so the only way this could go wrong is if we mess up if the actors mess up because if it works if it works in front of you then it's yeah it's your job to not get in the

44:44Jemaine Clement:way of it yeah and I have seen things before that I've read and thought this is one of the best things I've read and seen this show and it's not as good as the script. So it's always possible to fuck it up. That's the takeaway. Now, there is a dog involved. Yes. And the dog's very cute. Sorry, I'm laughing at you. It's funny in your accent that word. Dog. He's adorable. Any issues working? Mabel the dog. Mabel the dog. My real name. We should give her. Yeah, absolutely. Any incidents or was she a good actor? Well, she, the dog's a she. Yeah, okay. The character of the dog is male. Right. I don't know if there's probably going to be complaints about this.

45:26Yeah.

45:29Jemaine Clement:But I had to cover her genitals with my hand a lot of the time when I'm carrying. What a role. Did they teach you that at drama school? Yeah, I don't know. I didn't go to drama school. I'm sure they have a workshop on it. You're talking of creepy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, and also she'd been taught to sneeze, like she'd been trained to sneeze. So sometimes, you know, she's trying anything to get her reward a snack. She'll do a little turn or whatever, and she'll sneeze. But sometimes she's on my chest. Ah, okay. So her face right over my face, basically sneezing in my mouth. Oh, no. Were you a dog person before the show?

46:06Jemaine Clement:How did you react to the idea of anything? I don't think I'm naturally a dog person. I have a dog I forget every day. Until the morning. till the morning and she comes up and is like, oh yes, I'm here. Still here.

46:19Nicola Walker:Nicola, are you a dog person? I am, I'm a dog person. So there's a bit, there's very early on, there's a bit where I was watching it the other night at a screening and on a very big screen at a cinema and I noticed that when Alice kisses the dog in the opening sequence, it more or less looks like I'm getting really, really intimate

46:37Jemaine Clement:with Mabel, the dog, Crosby. You did have a rapport.

46:43Nicola Walker:No, I'm obsessed with them. I'm one of those really annoying people that's obsessed with their dog.

46:46Jemaine Clement:Oh, good. Fair enough, yeah. It's a very, very cute dog.

46:50Nicola Walker:She is. She is gorgeous. But they do have an issue, that breed. They look small and pick-up-able, but they're actually really heavy. It's a solid dog, yes. They're really solid, and I was really pleased that it was Jermaine carrying her all the time rather than me. I only had to carry her once, and I put her down on the floor as soon as I could. Could you do that 12 times, 12, 14 takes? Oh, absolutely, yeah.

47:11Jemaine Clement:Even worse than the dinner party. Yeah, worse than the Magnums, yeah. So I'd say she's about the weight of a pair of baby twins.

47:18Nicola Walker:Yes, which after a while is very hefty. Good cardio.

47:23Jemaine Clement:It's hard being an actor. It's so hard being an actor. I'm just wondering, Nicola, when you went into this, because obviously it's a comedic role, you do a ton of comedy. You've done comedy, but comedy is not what you're perhaps known for. It's deep emotional grief trauma is perhaps more what people would associate you with. My ballpark, yeah. Right. Those emotions are still here, but they're running. Yeah, just a funny take on it. But was this like a nice change of pace for you? Was it something you wish you got to do more often?

47:48Nicola Walker:No, yeah, it was nice to be offered here because I'm probably not the person that would be at the top of someone's list for casting. So when Sophie said that she wanted me to do it, that's hugely flattering. So I agree, I'm more known for, yes, very serious, very dark. but the thing is with the very serious very dark is that you you tend to go home at the end of a filming day and you're carrying all of that with you i'm not asking for sympathy here i love my job but you are you are aware that you're carrying all this kind of you know this awfulness in your head um with that with alice and steve all the awfulness and the darkness is surface is on the surface you're in and out it's out it's out there these are people well alice is definitely someone who is going to, if she's unhappy, everyone's going to know she's unhappy because she thinks she's right.

48:41Nicola Walker:So she's going to let everybody know she's unhappy. And as a result, at the end of each day, I felt fantastic. I wasn't carrying anything.

48:50Jemaine Clement:She's been shouting at me all day. I did.

48:51Nicola Walker:I made my best friend and my daughter, I made Jermaine and Yali feel terrible.

48:57Jemaine Clement:It's so scary because a lot of actors, they carry the emotion between the scenes and just Nicola glaring at me all day.

49:09Nicola Walker:Yeah, no, I hold it. It's like, if we're doing a scene where I hate him, I am hating him all day. Yeah, so you went method. If we're carrying that scene over to tomorrow, I hate you tomorrow as well.

49:19Jemaine Clement:You refuse to like him throughout the filming. Every day. Hi, Nicola. Hello.

49:25Nicola Walker:No, I don't think it, I really don't think, I think I'm probably the least method actor I've encountered. But I do, I'm not, you know, I do need to stay in the place. And they're right. Jermaine and Yali have pointed out before that you were really horrible for those two days.

49:40Jemaine Clement:I would never say horrible. I would just, you know, I'd laugh at something someone says and then catch you glaring at me.

49:47Nicola Walker:Do you know what it is? I didn't train either. So I'm just generally, I'm genuinely practising the lines in my head and trying to remember lines. I'm also very...

49:56Jemaine Clement:I think all the best actors I've worked with do that, though. They carry it between scenes. All the people are the most dedicated.

50:03Nicola Walker:I know. Yali pointed out that before every take, I'm also repeating my lines and I think she thought that was Methody but actually that was me just trying to remember my line. I mean, I love that she thinks that I'm that but as you get older, line learning gets tricky. When I was younger, I could look at a script, you know, the day's lines and walk on and do them. Definitely, as you get older, you have to put a lot more work in to make sure they're in there.

50:26Jemaine Clement:I'd never thought of that because I'd kind of been mostly writing for the previous few years and I was like, oh no, I'm good at this. I can just read it in the morning it's a muscle it's like oh they're not all it's about 80 % of them are there

50:39Nicola Walker:yeah

50:39Jemaine Clement:I never thought they were related to age

50:43Nicola Walker:unless you're someone like Matthew McFadden for example has an almost photographic memory wow when we were filming Spooks you'd get script changes very late someone would walk in and give him a two page you know massive speech and he would look at it and they go right I'm done I'm ready and he had it yeah

51:02Jemaine Clement:I always think script changes on the day just cruel for actors to deal with that.

51:05Nicola Walker:But it makes it very current because they'd normally be putting things from the news

51:09Jemaine Clement:into the script. Yeah, and sometimes it gives you an excuse not to know it.

51:12Nicola Walker:Yeah, which I loved. I agree, I really liked it and it makes it really exciting. You feel like you're really on the hoof.

51:17Jemaine Clement:Do you have a special technique? Because I remember Alice and Janney once saying that she writes down the first letter of every word. Yeah, that's a famous one. And that's how she remembers it. No. I was terrible on this one. I never remembered my lines first. Did you get in trouble? No, I'd improvise my way out. Ah,

51:34Nicola Walker:of course. Which was fantastic. We all really enjoyed it. I don't think there's a trick to learning. I've heard that one before. I feel like I'm a teenager again at home trying to learn, you know. A school player. Yes. Or a table of chemistry, table of whatever they are. Chemicals. Periodic table of elements. Yeah, yeah, the elements. Thank you. That was what I was looking for. You're back there. You just have to keep saying it again and again like you're a child.

52:02Jemaine Clement:You've got to remember what it's called. Yeah, I know.

52:05Nicola Walker:That's where my brain's gone at this age.

52:08Jemaine Clement:Fair enough, fair enough. This launches obviously here on Disney +, it's on Hulu in the US, so it's launching kind of globally, I guess, all at once. But for me, it's a very specific, part British, part Kiwi sense of humour, right? And I wondered, when you're doing this, is there a particular audience you have in mind? Because some things travel, some things don't. Not to us, but Disney looks at the cards and they have known. for the director. So there were probably things that... There might be things that didn't make it. And you're going to New York tomorrow to...

52:41Nicola Walker:Yeah, and we've been in France. It screened for the first time in France and we were wondering how it would go down with the French audience and they absolutely... They loved it.

52:48Jemaine Clement:It was in the Cannes... You know, there's Cannes Film Festival. Yeah, there's Cannes Series. In Cannes Series and they loved a standing ovation there. Yeah, they do. How they show it. And it was quite intense just standing there while everyone's standing around you in a theatre of 2 ,000 people and they're staring at you and filming at you and clapping at you and making eye contact. You don't know what to do. At what point does it get awkward? How many minutes does it take? For me, it was a couple of minutes. I was like, yeah, yeah, great. And then by the third minute, I was like, okay, that's enough.

53:19Jemaine Clement:How long was the sailing ovation? We weren't timing it. It just seems like forever. Because they do, don't they? It seems like forever, but it probably, yeah, they do.

53:26Nicola Walker:I didn't know that that was a thing that happens at Canto. There's me thinking, oh, it's amazing. before standing ovation and then someone said no that's what Cannes does but they did say you were the first standing ovation

53:36Jemaine Clement:oh well that's what I was I didn't know that and if they didn't like the show they wouldn't evate by the way in fact people walk out oh people do apparently yeah yeah oh like an amphitheatre

53:45Nicola Walker:okay

53:45Jemaine Clement:now I don't want to I don't want to spoil things but not everyone dies at the end of this series so you could do a second season yes is that something well you don't know though

53:54Nicola Walker:well you don't actually know by the end okay that's true it could be I would love to do No, you don't know that.

54:01Jemaine Clement:And they're actually different versions, different ideas that we've heard. And someone does die.

54:08Nicola Walker:Is Sophie telling us all very different second season ideas?

54:12Jemaine Clement:I think she just had different ideas over the time, and it depends when you have a conversation with her. But she's written it all apparently in second season. We won't know until, you know, if people watch it. That'll decide whether that will exist. So many different flavours of Magnum. so

54:29Nicola Walker:I don't ever want to yeah

54:32Jemaine Clement:go through that again actually I think go for the plain vanilla if you're going to be eating 10 of them yeah white chocolate's definitely a bad move don't do it and take the chocolate off so you're just dealing with the ice cream yeah good tip incredible guys thank you so much for coming in it's been a delight thank you that was Jumaine Glammon and Nicola Walker okay time for this week's question and this week's question comes from Andrew and Andrew says following this week's fantastic wrap up to Hacks which TV comedies have had the strongest sign-offs, he says. But that's not actually the question we're going to answer.

55:02Jemaine Clement:So, he said, I often find myself more attached to the characters in my favourite comedies than dramas. After laughing along with them for years, it's great to see characters I've grown to love left in a satisfying place. Honourable recent mention to what we do in the shadows, too. Also, as Hacks ends, what is now the funniest show currently on television?

55:22Nicola Walker:A Mandalorian.

55:23Jemaine Clement:Oh, yes, that's what I was going to say as well.

55:25Nicola Walker:Yes, I knew he was going to say, 100 % I think we talked about this when we reviewed it the joke count on Amanda Land this season this season season 2 is better than season 1 and that rarely happens I think in a comedy Lucy Punch she is now firmly firmly fixed as an absolute comedy icon Amanda her character is sensational but just yeah the amount the number of jokes per episode is off the charts. I mean, I even find them funny when they're just standing around. But the physical comedy, she's an incredible physical comedian, but my God, it's literally laugh out loud from beginning to end, every single episode.

56:12Nicola Walker:It's hands down the winner, which is why Boyd is looking so furious at me because he wanted to say a man to land.

56:18Jemaine Clement:Yeah, I'm in full agreeance.

56:20Nicola Walker:In full agreeance, okay.

56:21Jemaine Clement:Yeah, it's great.

56:22Nicola Walker:Why do you think it's so good?

56:24Jemaine Clement:Well, I think that with all the best sitcoms, the more you see of them the better the writing is because they know the characters and the actors playing them. So it's got to that point quite quickly, I think, you know, towards the end, I think it's probably now finished in fact maybe the series on BBC Two.

56:37Nicola Walker:It might do, let me check.

56:38Jemaine Clement:Quite quickly it's become a show where you know all the characters so well, the ensemble is so brilliantly put together and they're all funny. You know, how funny is

56:49Nicola Walker:Philippa Dunn? Philippa Dunn. But also...

56:52Jemaine Clement:How funny is Joanna Lumley in this role? You know, even Samuel Anderson who's kind of the straight guy but who's kind of like you know a lovely sweet you know but even he's really funny kind of just in an offhand way so I think it's that it's just the characters are so engaging and it's got that brilliant and you know re-James's complaints about comedies are always it's either too silly or it's too bleak or you know what this is just right just pitched just right so there's a lot of awkwardness in it and of cringe, which cringe is the, you know, kind of running theme of comedy now in television generally.

57:32Jemaine Clement:But there's something so likeable about everyone in it that the cringe isn't too cringe, if you like. It's not too torturous to watch. It's actually incredibly entertaining to watch. Going back, almost going back to, dare I say it, to, you know, 40 Towers was cringe. One of your favourite shows, I know. Super cringe. I'm not saying, it's not saying it's that good because that's probably the greatest TV comedy of all time. But it's so fun to watch so the cringe doesn't get in the way of it, doesn't make it annoying. There's no... The thing with Fawlty Towers' cringe, it doesn't have the hard edge that something like The Office has or something The Curb has, where it's slapstick and it's ridiculous.

58:08Jemaine Clement:And yes, there's certainly an element of comedy, of embarrassment to it, but it's quite easy to watch. Yeah, I think it's the same for Amandaland. That's what I'm trying to say. But Amandaland, I think, Amandaland does do that thing where it may not have the slightly, kind of almost cruel edge to it, but it deliberately makes you stew in the discomfort which I don't think Fawlty Towers generally did where like because that that presentation that she does in front of that class one of the most excruciating things I have ever seen is because it ratchets it again and again and just when you think it can't get any more awkward it gets more awkward to the point where you just want to die

58:45Nicola Walker:I would say that was exactly what Fawlty Towers does it takes it has an initial it has an initial problem and then it goes it gets worse and worse and worse until it completely explodes I would say 40 Towers was the foundation of cringe-building comedy.

58:58Jemaine Clement:You think? A hundred percent. Maybe it's because I've seen it so many times that I'm completely inured against the cringe. Because I don't find it cringe at all when I watch it. You're right. Basil, the way he gets into it, escalates and escalates until it's almost excruciating. It's unbearable. I agree. It's the key. Communication problems being the example, of course. When he places the bet on the horse, and then bit by bit he kind of digs a hole for himself and he gets deeper and deeper and deeper until when Sybil finally finds out and it just goes to shit. But I don't know that it's cringe.

59:28Jemaine Clement:It is. Oh my God. It is cringe.

59:30Nicola Walker:It's exactly that.

59:31Jemaine Clement:The only reason you're not in my industry is you want to be somehow consistent. But James, we gave up on you being consistent decades ago.

59:37Nicola Walker:We've literally just, you've said that it's completely opposite and it isn't. It's exactly like I say, I'm going to say it again. I think that 40 Towers is the foundation of cringe building comedy. And things like Frasier, you know, tried and did replicate that. They have a problem. and then it escalates and escalates and escalates until it becomes completely out of control. And that's how you get that awful cringe feeling. But let's just say as well, the addition of Harriet Webb to season two was a masterstroke because she's great. And she's in so many of those cringe-inducing scenes. Yes, Big Boys.

1:00:13Jemaine Clement:I thought you meant other shows as well. In Big Boys, she is sensational. She was in the Danny Dyer one, which I forgot the name of. I forgot the name of it too, but we'll do it. Anyway, it's the funniest show on TV.

1:00:22Nicola Walker:Anyway, you, early adopter of cringe comedy now, Fawlty Towers lover.

1:00:28Jemaine Clement:I don't know that I have an answer to this question. I love the way you plucked this question out. I know. You don't have your own answer. I've made a mistake, a terrible mistake. I'm going to answer the first part of his question, his first question instead. Oh, okay. Which was the comedies that stick the landing. Great comedy finales. Interestingly, do either of you know what the Fawlty Towers finale was? That's a good question.

1:00:50Nicola Walker:Have you just re-watched Fawlty Towers? Why are you getting all this wrong? Because you brought it up.

1:00:56Jemaine Clement:And this is the genius of Fawlty Towers is the finale of Fawlty Towers is Basil the Rat, which is not a finale at all. It's just the last episode. Yeah, of course. But that's the same for loads of shows back then. Yeah, they just stopped. They stopped while it was still brilliant and they didn't... He doesn't sell the hotel, nothing big happens, no one moves on. Of course. It's just a great episode. Yeah. I mean, the rat moves on. There's a brilliant fake rat shot as well, isn't there? the stupid rap turning its head Siberian hamster Siberian hamster yeah so that's great the finale of Blackadder Goes Forth is one of the all time great oh of course yes and if you ever watched the documentary I might have talked about this podcast before like the reason why it ends the way it ends is because they didn't really have the footage to make it work like the over the top push didn't really work things blowing up so they it was partly by necessity that they kind of went to the field of poppies and what not but it works it works wonderfully I think that's a that's a fantastic final episode The Good Place had a pretty good finale, I would say, as well.

1:01:51Nicola Walker:Oh, I totally gave up on The Good Place. Did you? Yeah. I was like, oh, I can't be dealing with this anymore. I found it a bit annoying. I don't know why.

1:02:00Jemaine Clement:Yeah, I know what you mean. It certainly went off the rails at one point, but I think it rallied. It had a fairly strong finale, which I thought was pretty good. And Boyd's beloved Seinfeld, which has one of the worst finales of all time. Steady. Come on.

1:02:12Nicola Walker:Why do you think that's one of the worst finales of all time? Because it's terrible.

1:02:14Jemaine Clement:It's generally acknowledged as one of the most divisive. Up there with How I Met Your Mother, I think. Oh, How I Met Your Mother is shocking. But having interviewed Larry David, Larry did assure me personally that the ending of Curb, and I'm discussing Curb, which I'm not supposed to do because I'm not allowed to discuss Friends anymore.

1:02:35Nicola Walker:He's a cringe comedy expert now. Yeah, that's true.

1:02:38Jemaine Clement:But the whole of this final season of Curb was partly a reaction to the finale of Seinfeld. and acknowledging the divisiveness of that finale. So, yes.

1:02:48Nicola Walker:So that's been explained. Have you got any more?

1:02:51Jemaine Clement:That has been fully explained now. We now know what's happening. No, I think we're done. I think we've answered that question. Both of those questions.

1:02:57Nicola Walker:I'm going to ask you a question.

1:02:58Jemaine Clement:Oh, God.

1:02:59Nicola Walker:Is there anything on TV at the moment, this is me just asking the same question in a different way, that makes you laugh at the moment? Is there anything on TV that makes you laugh?

1:03:07Jemaine Clement:Specifically to James, obviously. Yeah, to James.

1:03:09Nicola Walker:Because obviously, you know, we're chuckle buddies. Everything makes it, we're fine.

1:03:13Jemaine Clement:I actually will say that one of the shows we're about to talk about made me laugh. Oh. So, yes. Oh, okay. Nice for us. So, when we get to the review section, you will find out. Oh, God, I hope it's... It was Cape Fear.

1:03:27Nicola Walker:Jesus, okay, great. I was going to go down an even worse route. Okay, fine.

1:03:31Jemaine Clement:I mean, of the three shows we're reviewing later, I don't know if you can pick out the one that made me laugh, but yes, there is one there.

1:03:38Nicola Walker:Glad you're getting your lols. Thank you.

1:03:40Jemaine Clement:Thank you very much. If you have a question for us, either for this podcast or for Pilot Plus, do send them in postbag at pilottvpod.com. Time now for this week's news. And a moment of silence, I think, is called for for the cancelled upcoming Stargate TV show remake, which is no longer going ahead at Prime Video.

1:03:59Nicola Walker:Oh, I just, it's not happening. Why? It's not happening. Why?

1:04:02Jemaine Clement:It's hard to say. I believe the quote was something along the lines of they determined that they didn't think it would have broad enough appeal, meaning no one's going to watch this.

1:04:11Nicola Walker:But you'd watch it.

1:04:12Jemaine Clement:I would have watched it. Yes, 100%. I love a bit of Stargate. I would have watched it. Stargate SG-1, watched all of it. Stargate Atlantis, to be fair, I didn't watch all of that. Stargate Universe, I watched all of that as well. I mean,

1:04:23Nicola Walker:I only watched Stargate SG-1, I have to say, but still.

1:04:25Jemaine Clement:Yeah. A lot of Stargate.

1:04:27Nicola Walker:Stargate? No, I've never watched it. No, no.

1:04:29Jemaine Clement:Did you watch the Roland Emmerich films? I watched the film, yeah, films, film, films, but I never got into the TV show. Richard Dean Anderson, MacGyver in a Stargame? No? No. Okay.

1:04:39Nicola Walker:Oh, the trailer for season three of House of the Dragon, or what did you call it?

1:04:43Jemaine Clement:A Year of the Dragon, I think it's fine stuff.

1:04:46Nicola Walker:It's just dropped. Have you seen this already? This trailer?

1:04:51Jemaine Clement:I actually haven't watched it yet, no. But I'm very excited to watch the series, but I have not watched the trailer yet.

1:04:55Nicola Walker:Shall we watch the trailer now?

1:04:56Jemaine Clement:We want to do a live watch of the trailer. Well, I'm just wondering because we haven't got loads of news,

1:05:00Nicola Walker:so I'm wondering if we should say, you know, we should do a watch.

1:05:03Jemaine Clement:All right. We're going to do it now. On the impromptu. We'll be back in just a second. Oh, okay. All right, that's it. We've just had a live watch.

1:05:11Nicola Walker:We've live watched it.

1:05:12Jemaine Clement:We've live watched the House of the Dragon trailer. It looks insane. I'm so excited about this.

1:05:17Nicola Walker:It looks absolutely insane. saying, how has the House of the Dragon, not Year of the Dragon, done compared to Game of Thrones in viewing figures?

1:05:26Jemaine Clement:Not as high as Game of Thrones. I'm not surprised. I think it has a very different feel to it than Game of Thrones. Game of Thrones also had a much more, it had a much broader scope in terms of the characters that it had.

1:05:40Nicola Walker:There was a lightness.

1:05:42Jemaine Clement:Well, there was both. It kind of balanced. There was definitely a broader tonality, I think, to Game of Thrones. And it had more variety. I also think it was more, I might say universal, but I guess it was in terms of its themes, whereas this is very fantasy, dragons, politics, military. Like it's a bit sort of, one note feels like I'm being derogatory, which I don't mean it to be, but it's much more focused on a very specific thing.

1:06:02Nicola Walker:Yeah, you don't sort of get out of that setting. They felt like there was more kind of domestic settings in Game of Thrones.

1:06:07Jemaine Clement:Yeah, there was a very broad canvas in Game of Thrones. Like the battle for the Iron Throne was a part of the story, but it wasn't a whole story, and that's very much where House of the Dragon lives. But I love the show. I think it's fantastic. I'm super excited about this that is a great trailer it's a banging trailer yeah

1:06:21Nicola Walker:they've done that very well

1:06:22Jemaine Clement:I cannot wait to see the episodes of this

1:06:23Nicola Walker:God, Matt Smith is so scary isn't he did he scare you Boyd

1:06:27Jemaine Clement:at the football? he scared me a little bit but then he turned out to be

1:06:31Nicola Walker:delight

1:06:32Jemaine Clement:pussycat wow

1:06:33Nicola Walker:there you go you heard it here first yeah

1:06:35Jemaine Clement:what's new pussycat?

1:06:36Nicola Walker:yeah wow okay well that looks amazing did you know that Rebus is coming back in 2027?

1:06:42Jemaine Clement:is it?

1:06:42Nicola Walker:yes it is and Stephen McColl from Shetland is joining the cast. He's an undisclosed character. It's coming back, 2027.

1:06:51Jemaine Clement:Please don't disclose it.

1:06:52Nicola Walker:No, I can't. I will not. Because I can't. No.

1:06:55Jemaine Clement:This was the quite recent reboot of...

1:06:58Nicola Walker:Yes, it's this reboot of Rebus.

1:07:00Jemaine Clement:Yeah, because there's quite a large gap between old Rebus with Ken Stott, wasn't it? Wasn't it? Am I imagining it? I can't remember. Live look up. Live look up. Yes, there's quite a gap between the Ken Stott era of Rebus, which was when I got to know that character and watched those episodes and this new revamped version. Did you watch the recent revamped version? No, I did not. I think we must have reviewed it. You must have, I did not.

1:07:26Nicola Walker:What did you think? You don't remember?

1:07:28Jemaine Clement:No, so I can only think that it was a busy week or we must have thought it was fine.

1:07:32Nicola Walker:Well, season two's coming next year. I'm aware. News that you will not care about, James, is that people are saying this is going to be the last ever season of Love Island. this is a show but you know some people yeah because they're talking about Maya Jarmoran that she's not going to do it anymore does this mean this is going to be the last ever season there's other presenters tell us there's a

1:07:56Jemaine Clement:slow news week without telling us it's a slow news week exactly

1:08:00Nicola Walker:so there you go

1:08:01Jemaine Clement:some people who listen

1:08:02Nicola Walker:will watch Love Island

1:08:04Jemaine Clement:some not many but some there is a project which I didn't know about until I saw this story today which is Will Arnett joins Kristen Stewart in Amazon series is The Challenger, which is a drama about The Challenger shuttle disaster, which was so indelible in my mind. I remember that so vividly as being a shocking, shocking moment in a kind of American history. The series was officially picked up at Amazon in March with Stuart Tatchett play Ride. And it's inspired by a book called The New Guys. And The Challenger tells the gripping story of one of the most defining moments in space history, both the unprecedented events leading up to the tragedy and the shocking investigation that follows.

1:08:48Jemaine Clement:Wow. She plays Sally Ride, who is a member of the commission that investigated what happened. There you go. Interesting.

1:08:55Nicola Walker:That is interesting.

1:08:56Jemaine Clement:What is also interesting is Interview of the Vampire was, of course, one of the best shows on television. It was a fabulous adaptation of Anne Rice's book. Two seasons of that. It is returning this week in America, but it is now The Vampire Lestat, which is of course the title of the second book in Anne Rice's series which refocuses from Louis as the protagonist to Lestat as the protagonist and is Lestat the rock star? He's on stage performing like Bono.

1:09:21Nicola Walker:Wow.

1:09:22Jemaine Clement:Yeah. It's a really, really, really good book but yeah, that is arriving on the 7th of June which is the day we go out I believe in this podcast in the US but there is currently no information on when it's going to arrive in the UK which is why none of us have seen it.

1:09:37Nicola Walker:This happens quite a lot

1:09:39Jemaine Clement:with these Anne Rice shows. Yes. These emorations are quite elusive. Well, they end up on the BBC, generally. Yeah, yeah. But yeah, I don't know when we're going to get it. But I would really like to know, because I'm desperate to see it. Of course you are. Sam Reid is phenomenal as a stat. So you're the one who is... I'm not the one. Everyone is the one, Boydie. It's one of the best shows on television. Is it, Luke? Yes, it is. You've got very high-pitched. Yes, I've got very high-pitched. It really is good.

1:10:03Nicola Walker:Didn't you say that the second... So what season is this of this?

1:10:07Jemaine Clement:This would be the third season.

1:10:08Nicola Walker:Right, so didn't you... Me? To my memory serves, someone said the second season wasn't as good.

1:10:12Jemaine Clement:These are lies.

1:10:13Nicola Walker:Okay, fine. Sorry, I've got that wrong.

1:10:15Jemaine Clement:I don't know. I thought somebody said the second season wasn't good.

1:10:18Nicola Walker:The second season was great. Was it? Okay, fine. Okay, well, we're excited for you.

1:10:22Jemaine Clement:Thank you. I'm very pleased. Yes. Anything else, news-wise? No. No. It's a slow week. It's a very slow week. Hence, Steph talking about Love Island. I know. Yes.

1:10:33Nicola Walker:I mean, it is on TV.

1:10:36Jemaine Clement:Technically, yes.

1:10:36Nicola Walker:Yes, it is.

1:10:37Jemaine Clement:let's move on then to this week's reviews before we wrap up and let's begin with Alice and Steve because as you've heard this is the Disney Plus show it is Sophie Goodhart's squirm inducing comedy which tests the bounds of friendship and appropriate age gaps in relationships now both Boydie and I are clearly in thrall to Nicola and Germain Boydie having spent a lot more time with them than I did but and who wouldn't be really but it forced you Steph to be the impartial voice tell us about Alice and Steve

1:11:04Nicola Walker:well I can't be truly impartial because I love Nicola Walker so much. And then as I was on my way out of the studio and I just said, oh, I'm so excited to meet you because obviously I love Cassie Stewart in Unforgotten. She clasped my, she did a double hand clasp and that sort of cemented my love for her. And I really, really wanted to ask her to be my best friend. But sadly, you two kicked me out of the studio, so that's never going to happen now.

1:11:28Jemaine Clement:We did. That is actually true. James, could you? In our defense, the studio only has four seats. I think you should double up like, you know, like something in a shell. I volunteered. I said she could share my mic and she said no. You didn't want to get that intimate with James? I didn't. Not after the Yellowstone debacle.

1:11:45Nicola Walker:No, because I knew I'd already done something bad and I thought, you know, it was just, it was too many mixed messages. I thought, no. Anyway, okay. So, my God, this show, what a pairing of these two, like Nicola Walker and Jermaine Clement. When I was talking to people upstairs, people on the ground upstairs about this and they were like, but Nicola Walker only does. Like, she only does, you know, serious roles. And I was like, oh, no, no. Don't you dare. She is so fabulous in this. And what's brilliant about this? So we find Alice and Steve, they are best friends. They are made in the field of my best friends, obviously.

1:12:20Nicola Walker:They've got this incredible relationship. They have a history together. The first scene, one of their friends has died. They're at a funeral. And then after the funeral, they go out and go out on the town and you really get to see sort of the underbelly of the relationship between these two. Steve is a divorcee, but really and truly he wants to find somebody. Alice is married. She's married to a man who's 10 years younger than her. She has two children, but they are absolutely ride or die best mates and she wants all good things for him, which leads to a very excruciating and cringey scene, which I'm sure you hate, where Alice attempts to get a girl to talk to Steve and she's like, you're brilliant, you can get anyone, blah, blah, blah.

1:13:02Nicola Walker:And tries to sort of make a union happen and it's so embarrassing. But the absolute MVP of this first episode is a French bulldog called Crosby. My God, what happens? I don't think I can say what happens to Crosby, but there is a vet visit. And he is adorable and gorgeous and anything with a dog in I love, but mixing Nicola Walker, Jermaine Clement, also known as Tamatoa from Moana, is just a gift, this show. It's laugh out loud funny, but it also manages to be deeply emotional and upsetting. She is kind of caught off all guards by the fact that her best friend begins dating her daughter, who is not a teenager, she's 26.

1:13:51Nicola Walker:How that happens, we won't go into because I don't want to spoil any of it, but wow, this feels really original. it feels like a really original concept it feels like when you first think you're like oh god this is a bit icky I thought it would give me the ick I was like I don't know whether I can do this but you can do it and you won't be disappointed I think the way that Nicola Walker's Alice delivers these devastating lines which is when she's consumed with incandescent rage but she delivers the lines it's sensational and if you had any reservation about, you know, if you're like me and your Nicola Walker is Cassie Stewart and she is that detective, don't let that put you off because she's brilliant and she's brilliant, she does comedy, she does emotional and it almost feels to me, I think this is who Nicola Walker kind of is in her real life and so there's the level of authenticity about it which is a delight, which is an absolute delight to watch.

1:14:56yeah

1:14:57Nicola Walker:I also love this it's just little things that she does her character does like the way that when she's saying she's fine she enters like this really high pitched voice that we would I'm totally fine everything's fine it's just the comedy is weaved so ingeniously throughout it you don't even you know you don't feel like it's natural comedy so you don't feel like you're watching obviously it's not joke after joke after joke so you're saying

1:15:18Jemaine Clement:it's not the first episode of Widow's Bay that's what you're going at oh yeah

1:15:22Nicola Walker:I'm Widow's Bay but yeah and just little things like the whole way through how I mean for me this is a comedy that really has a lot of touchstones with someone of my age that they're like they're in their kind of 50s aren't they in this but they make lots of references there's a scene where Jermaine Clements Steve was talking about starts talking about Woody Allen and all I could think of was Boyd same all I could think of was Boyd

1:15:47Jemaine Clement:he starts trying to defend Woody Allen to a load of kind of I was about to say Gen Z they would be Gen Z yeah

1:15:53Nicola Walker:so a load of new his girlfriend and I was like oh my god this is literally like Boyd's life but I also love I love it when they keep a thread of a joke runs through the whole thing the thing for me is how he Trane Clement's character is a hair stylist and he's constantly referred to as a hairdresser and every time that joke it made me laugh and that's you know that's just Jermaine Clement's voice

1:16:18Jemaine Clement:we repeated that joke in the interview we did just for you and the dog I asked about the dog quite a lot oh did you Whose dog was it? I don't know whose dog it was, but there was a lot of, they both loved the dog, but he had to look up. You'll hear it in the interview. I'm recounting it. I'm recounting it. Recount the anecdote. Which I would have known had I been in the room. You are the one who hasn't heard the interview. Everyone else, all of our listeners have.

1:16:40Nicola Walker:But yeah, I love this. I really love that it's an original, it feels like an original idea. It feels fresh. It feels fresh and not just because you haven't seen Nicola Walker in something like this. The whole concept, everything, the marrying of these two people is fabulous. so I absolutely loved it thought it was amazing

1:16:55Jemaine Clement:I'm going to make a prediction here which is that because I asked them in the interview at the end whether there's talk of a second season and there is and in fact the writer's written already written

1:17:06Nicola Walker:the episodes

1:17:07Jemaine Clement:and my guess is that I think what's going to happen in the second season is that she's going to have an affair with a younger man and well her husband's

1:17:15Nicola Walker:already younger but he's getting annoyed isn't he 10 years younger

1:17:18Jemaine Clement:but that's a big difference between that and you know she starts going out with a 20 something year old but I think that's what will happen I hope so anyway because one of the intriguing things about this is that if this was written by a man writing about a middle aged guy a bit of a schlubby kind of figure despite his job as hairstylist to the staff and dating a 26 year old girl it's a bit icky in and of itself but if it was written by a man even more so but it's totally but the fact that it's written by a very talented woman it makes all the difference because it doesn't she brilliantly steers the ship of this ongoing premise the central relationship brilliantly so and I thought actually the Woody Allen conversation was such a clever way of addressing that issue that that that was almost like oh this is actually fantastic her script is so smart and clever and it treads the line between, you know, gags.

1:18:23Jemaine Clement:There are moments which are kind of gags, really, and character-driven, just funny people being funny in themselves. The dog stuff is just, you know, it's very clever and funny. And you've just got to, and funnily enough, I was thinking Nicola, because we talked, she herself was saying, I am known as an actress in very big, serious, heavy roles, and she is. But I was thinking, she does comedy stuff. And of course, she was in a show called Broken News, which is one of my absolute favourites that no one else really knows about which was John Morton who does 2012 and 2026 one of my favourite TV comedy creative people and he did Broken News and it was like a rapid fire sketch show in which you flicked across different channels and she was in one of the presenters in that and she was hilarious in it absolutely brilliantly funny and I think she was in the sitcom as well so she's done more comedy than you know her for

1:19:12Nicola Walker:she seems to have naturally funny bones

1:19:14Jemaine Clement:she does have naturally funny bones she's complete and if you ever like we spoke to her in real life yesterday she's very warm when she was very warm she was being very funny when I got lost when I was lost so yeah really it shouldn't be that surprising that she's so good at delivering this high dungeon she has to be which gets higher as it goes on and her fury at what's happening this could be the other thing that struck me is it could be a season of beef you know beef which is all about conflict that gets bigger and bigger and escalates This is what happens in this series. It escalates and escalates until it becomes almost unbearable and it gets a bit out of hand.

1:19:52Jemaine Clement:And that's the clever thing. But it's always on the side of believability. It's always believable. All the characters feel real. The dialogue feels authentic and yet funny at the same time. It's just about heightened enough. And you know what I think the MVP is, though?

1:20:06Nicola Walker:It's Crosby the Dog. I've already identified the MVP.

1:20:09Jemaine Clement:Apart from Crosby the Dog, I agree with you. Second MVP is Yali Topol Margulith, who is the granddaughter of the legendary Topol, the Israeli yes the Israeli actor if he were a rich man Fiddler on the Roof oh my god yeah he made Fiddler on the Roof very famous but she's brilliant she is brilliant she's so well judged that character because she is as I said in the interview with them she's the adult in the room in all her moments funnily enough and they're all like childish idiots basically her mum and her new lover but she's so charming and funny in herself that you completely go along with that she would be attracted to this kind of quirky, funny guy and that she'd end up embroiled with him in the way she does.

1:20:52Jemaine Clement:So I think she's the key to the whole thing in a way. Brilliant as everyone is in it. Everyone is brilliant. It's one of those things where you describe the premise to people. I had this in the office this morning. One of our bosses said, oh, no, it sounds a bit weird.

1:21:03Nicola Walker:It sounds a bit weird.

1:21:04Jemaine Clement:You just watch it and you're at ease because actually it completely makes sense.

1:21:08Nicola Walker:And this is, for me, this is Nicola Walker's show because this is all about her reaction, how she deals with everything. and when we're talking about kind of laugh out loud gags there are moments there's a moment where she leaves a voice note because Steve's been trying to get hold of it and she leaves a voice note and it's just her speaking that note into her phone and I honestly it would just because it's exactly what you know her character would do and what she says in that voice note is so funny so it does have those moments as well oh god James

1:21:38Jemaine Clement:no no I really you know I really like it because I found it really funny yeah no I think this works for a number of reasons I think Sophie Goodhart, it's the script really, first and foremost, because some of the lines in this are fantastic. If you watch the trailer, one of my favourite lines is in there when she first finds out. And the line is, I hope you fall out of your window and then get pierced in the heart by your railing and that no one comes to your funeral. Which is very specific. And just little throwaway things like this bit where she says, I'm buying food for tonight. What do you make a man who's fucked your daughter?

1:22:06Nicola Walker:Yeah, it's brilliant.

1:22:07Jemaine Clement:It's just incredibly funny. But on the ick factor, and we talk about this in roundabout terms of the interview, but I think one of the reasons it works is because I don't know that this show works in the same way if you have someone other than Jermaine Clement in that role. And I think the Kiwi sense of humor is so, and him in particular, so deadpan. And I think there's something about that where he comes across as just inherently quite charming. And what works so well in this show is the way your loyalties are, obviously with Nicola Walker's character, because you're like, oh my God, I can't believe he did that.

1:22:40Jemaine Clement:What a shit. but then she becomes increasingly unhinged and he comes across as quite sweet and him and Izzy are actually quite sweet together so you start to sort of soften on that as she becomes more extreme and then of course it takes you back and forth. I think it's really cleverly balanced.

1:22:59Nicola Walker:I never softened on them in the three episodes I watched. Did you not? No, I was totally with her. Wow, you were just outraged by her.

1:23:07Jemaine Clement:Yeah, I love it as well. But I don't think you ever get past the fundamentally, like, it is such a, you don't do that. And I don't think you necessarily forgive him for that. But there is a point, and it happens during the dinner party, and we talk about this, like, you go through the Woody Allen bit, that there's a bit where he wins everyone back. And you do start to something like, oh, yeah, because he, I think Jermaine Clement has a very charming, very kind of sweet, almost disarming quality to him. And I think that really, really works.

1:23:33Nicola Walker:Yeah, but in that scene where he's doing that, if you the facial acting from Nicola Walker in that scene when she's like I'm going to call bullshit on this she is an utter disbelief she's like she knows him so well that she's like this is a fucking play you know I know what he's doing and I am going to destroy him

1:23:52Jemaine Clement:I think what makes it so she's her so brilliant she takes all of this as an opportunity to vent all of her all of her feelings and frustrations that build up which is very clever and I'm totally on her side as well

1:24:04Nicola Walker:I'm so with her

1:24:05Jemaine Clement:Until she goes too far. No, but even when she goes too far, it's still rooting for her, I think.

1:24:13Nicola Walker:This is a Nicola Walker show for me.

1:24:15Jemaine Clement:I think they're both fabulous. It's a really, really good show. I thoroughly enjoyed it. I thought it was really funny. And there is a scene, which we talk about in the interview, where for about five seconds, you just hear eight people crunching magnums, and it's the most tense magnum crunching you'll ever experience.

1:24:32Nicola Walker:They do make a very loud crunch. They do.

1:24:35Jemaine Clement:They do make a lot of crunch. Anyway, that is Alice and Steve, which airs on the Disney Plus on the 8th of June, Tuesday. Correct? Monday is the end of June, I believe. The end of June is Monday. Okay, the 8th of June, Monday, today. Okay, good to know. You confused me there. I did confuse you. With a fictional date. With a fictional date that I just made up. Okay, next up we have Kate Fear on Apple TV, and this is the latest incarnation of this particular story, drawing on the original novel, which is John McDonald's The Executioners, as well as the iconic 1991 film by Martin Scorsese with Robert De Niro as Max Cady.

1:25:10Jemaine Clement:And there's also a 1962 film by J. Lee Thompson, which has Robert Mitchum in the villain role. But this one has Javier Mbadem as Cady himself, and it offers a, I would argue, a slightly less morally clear-cut take on this story, which sees him as a former convict who seeks revenge against the lawyers he holds responsible for ultimately putting him away. And they are here, played by Patrick Wilson and Amy Adams. Boydie you look like a man who has Die Bart die tattooed on your chest to reference these Simpsons tributes again for you of course tell us about it is a very very good episode of Simpsons well let me make it clear from the start that one of my favourite films absolutely which version the Scorsese Nick Nolte Robert De Niro Jessica Lange version is brilliant I love that film to the extent that it's one I've got like a hat there's you know people, regular listeners will know that I often bang on about my favourite films.

1:26:06Jemaine Clement:That's one I return to quite a lot. I've re-watched that film many, many, many times. I do re-watch classic films. Okay. If not TV shows, if not TV dramas. So I did go into this with a certain amount of trepidation. The other thing about it, so I remember when this project was announced, they're doing a TV version of Cape Fear, which is an almost perfect two-hour film by Martin Scorsese, the greatest living director in the world with some of the greatest talent, De Niro, Lang, et cetera. And they've turned into to a 10 part, 10, let me say again, part TV drama. And most of the episodes are in a rubber tune, 40 minutes and an hour.

1:26:41Jemaine Clement:Some of them are even longer than an hour, let me tell you. And I thought, what the F are they doing? It's going to be overstretched. It's going to be obviously extended for no good reason. They could easily do it in eight episodes, or six or whatever. So I was trepidatious to say the least. But you know what? I am more than halfway through now. I think I'm on episode six. and I am really enjoying it. I think what they've done is they've taken the initial premise of the ex-con, played it by Javier Bardem in this case, and they go straight into it. They jump right into it. There's no messing about.

1:27:16Jemaine Clement:But they bring in enough new characters. So they've got the teenage son who's got a love interest. They've got other offspring characters with different interests, so we say, romantic interests. they've got their own backstories he's got his own backstory Javier Bardem the villain and there are more associate characters as well you see more workplace characters these two different lawyers have different workplaces and so it just kind of quite subtly and cleverly expands the universe of the original film I do like the Royal Mission version but the Scorsese version is an absolute masterpiece and you go along with it and it just gives you more so you get more naturally flowing tendrils of narrative I can't believe I just said that sorry tendrils of narrative I liked it feels like the kind of thing I'd have said yeah I like it it just came to me keep going actually I have stopped noticing that it's 10 parts long and I'm just really enjoying it and going along for the ride because there are some great brand new sequences there's a road trip they go on and I think four maybe which I won't spoil who's on the road trip but that just turns out to be really interesting.

1:28:29Jemaine Clement:You see snippets of Max Cady's past, which are also fascinating. And it is genuinely, by the way, quite tense when it needs to be, as the original was, spectacularly tense, because you see nasty stuff happens, and you are worried for the characters when, because we know what Max Cady's capable of. And as you said, James, there's more of a moral ambiguity, because clearly this lawyer couple, paid by Amy Adams and Patrick Wilson, have made dodgy decisions, shall we say. Well, we should say that's true also in the Scorsese version. Because he's suppressed a piece of evidence when he's defending the guy and let him go to prison.

1:29:04Jemaine Clement:Whereas in this, there's a sense that he may or may not have been wrongly convicted completely. Whereas De Niro's character is clearly guilty. And also, I would say, has no interiority, really. He's just on the face of it and absolutely psychopathic. This guy's a much more complex character. Exactly. We see what made him what he is today, exactly. But he's still brilliant. And when he arrives in places, he's shot from behind, and the first big scene of him where he interrupts a speech being given is just fantastically well done. It's really, really well put together by Nick and Tosca. But you know what the thing that I'm most excited about is?

1:29:43Jemaine Clement:The movie is so brilliant, and it's visually extraordinary. And it's not just beautiful to look at and every shot is interesting. It has these weird sepia moments. it has the weird kind of you probably know the technical term for when it's like the saturated colours oh yeah it has a very it's very vivid kind of high past that and they use those

1:30:03Nicola Walker:that you know what is that what's the you know the technical term you know that jaws you know oh the crash zoom yeah that's it

1:30:09Jemaine Clement:oh yeah and it also has the split diopter I think as well which is another thing that Brian De Palma used to do that they did where it's like two characters are both in focus at the same time it uses all these tricks and the music is the brilliant brilliant music the legendary music so it absolutely comes clean and goes yeah we're paying tribute to the genius film in the most obvious way possible so you can't accuse us of you know trying to do something different for the sake of it but it almost takes all of that stuff the music and the visuals and times it by five or even ten and it's so that every single shot almost is a stunning visual work of art it looks I think it's the best shot most cinematic show I've seen on TV for ages and like it really they really put a lot into it making it look incredible it looks fantastic on my 70s television I'll tell you that it is

1:31:03Nicola Walker:it is a feast for the senses feast for the senses it really really is it absolutely is

1:31:07Jemaine Clement:so I'm absolutely loving it and I know it got three star review I think in Empire I mean it did Empire TV reviews I'm reliable now but five stars five stars and interestingly because actually the other show that is visually incredible is Spider Noir, which was given five stars in Empire Magazine. In fact, I'm joking. Everyone's in touch with their own opinion. But that is visually stunning as well, whether you go for the black and white or colouring. Black and white, preferably. But I was thinking... Compared to this, though. Exactly. I mean, compared to this, it just looks stunning. The saturation, by the way, of the colour is fascinating because it really makes use of it.

1:31:46Jemaine Clement:Javier Bardem wears these very vivid blue contact lenses and the saturation make him almost look demonic. Yes, yes. Which I think is a magical touch to it. Well, yeah, actually, finally, Chris Lupton, the designer supremo of Empire, was asking me, because I just happened to be chatting to him while he was, I think he was laying out the review of the magazine, saying, oh, the eyes look really weird. They're like almost glowing. I'm like, yeah, that is what happens in the show. The attention to detail in the visuals is absolutely extraordinary. And a lot of people think that Euphoria, to go back to that, is the most visually stunning show.

1:32:18Jemaine Clement:This is even better, I think, in terms of its visuals. So I'm genuinely loving it. If you said to me, they're going to take Cape Fear and they're going to turn it into a 10-part TV drama, this is as good as it gets for me in terms of that project. They've done it fantastically well, I think.

1:32:31Nicola Walker:I am in total agreement with you, my friend. I love, you know, for me, one of my kind of things that I go back to when it scared the shit out of me was Juliette Lewis in Cape Fear. And sometimes when I think about that, it actually makes me feel frightened because it is an absolute masterpiece, that film, and I think we'll probably all love it. Yeah. I feel like I've watched a few things lately, that the initial scenes have been so, so horrifying. I almost can't believe what I'm watching. Tiptoe was one of those where I was like, oh my God, whoa, okay, this is where this is going. And Cape Fear does this.

1:33:10Nicola Walker:And again, I would say I approach this with trepidation as well because I love Cape Fear. And 10 episodes just seems too long. but for me the key is and an actress I love Amy Adams is sensational in this she, her the fear and there's a moment in this where Javier Bardem's Max Caley says to her are you frightened of me? and she says no why would I have been frightened of you? but yeah I mean I think I've said before Javier Bardem he's my favourite Raoul Silver is my favourite Bond villain ever I know controversial but I I'm sorry what? He's my favourite Bond villain ever. He's a great Bond villain.

1:33:48Nicola Walker:He's a great... And I know you said that last time, but he absolutely is. And for me, I was like, he's so angry about it. We'll take this off the... We'll take this off the...

1:33:56Jemaine Clement:Ask Javier when you interview him whether he's his own favourite Bond villain. He's unbelievable.

1:34:01Nicola Walker:He's so...

1:34:02Jemaine Clement:To be fair, he is a good Bond villain.

1:34:03Nicola Walker:He's such an incredibly imposing figure.

1:34:07Jemaine Clement:No country for old men. He's incredible as psychopaths.

1:34:10Nicola Walker:Oh my God. But this is the thing about Javier Bardem. He's incredible as psychopaths. But he also can do La La the Crocodile and he's absolutely wonderful in musical dance. So you know what? The man's range is, you know, unspeakably good. Anyway, yeah. So there is a horrifying opening scene. But I do want to say one of the things which I love and I think makes this, this is going to sound ridiculous, but what I love about Amy Adams is she's such an unbelievable actress and I give her every credit for having not messed with her face. Because we see so many actresses now, TV actresses older TV actresses who've done things to their face and they don't get they aren't able to visually facially act in the way that she is because she hasn't messed with her face and she's unbelievably beautiful and she's incredible in this role and the fear and terror on her face you know it's palpable isn't it so that for me really made a difference between some other things we might have watched where you see actresses and you think oh you shouldn't have done that because you would have been like you would have been better in this role had you not done it but anyway that's just a small thing but the other thing I really like about it is they reference and you guys won't know this but when they're doing the news rules and stuff like that they're referencing Max Cady's character against real cases so obviously he is been accused of murdering his pregnant wife and the huge massive case of Scott Peterson who is still in prison American guy who they believe murdered, he's in prison for, has been convicted of murdering his wife and they reference that and for some reason for me that really also it brought another layer to it they also when the podcaster is chasing they he says oh i've had casey anthony casey anthony on this is a massive case of a woman who um was accused of killing her her daughter and this might not mean anything to you but i can tell you now it it brings you it brings it into a whole other level if you think oh it's just gonna sound weird it's also like oh this is really real because they're talking about things that actually happened in this you know they're setting him in this real crime environment which it brings

1:36:13Jemaine Clement:another layer to it a true crime community gets a true crime community i yeah it's fucking shit

1:36:19Nicola Walker:scary it's unbelievable there's the scenes the way that they pan the camera in the scenes in the house and the way they use the alarm it's just yeah like like i said it is a feast for all the senses everything it's so frightening um but absolutely i think i've talked about the

1:36:38Jemaine Clement:true crime aspect of this about wanting to kind of bring into relief our kind of 2026 relationship with true crime and the fascination with it so I think that's definitely a part of the story here. They dread crime monthly I've done features on all

1:36:53Nicola Walker:these people. I bet you have

1:36:55Jemaine Clement:yeah it has so many more layers than the film I mean obviously it's 10 hours long it can afford to have many more layers but it has a different feel to it as well and I think the ambiguity around Katie gives it a different kind of dread because De Niro, like, don't get me wrong, he has that kind of sickly sweet charm is maybe not the word to use, but you know what I mean? Like, he has that like he speaks in a sing-songy voice, sounds like counsellor, you know, whereas in this, like, you can't quite get a read on Katie, like, he seems terrifying but then you're like, are you a monster or are you literally what 17 years in prison has made you?

1:37:31Jemaine Clement:Like, were you a monster? And you, I mean, certainly the point I am in the show, I don't know whether he was or wasn't wrongly convicted. He may well have been. You have your doubts. You're supposed to have your doubts, but there are lots of questions about what's going on. And also, he doesn't seem to be necessarily the only antagonistic party on the board. And I think the way he plays it is spectacular. Because it's sinister, but he's very charming with it. And then you feel sorry for him, and then you're terrified of him, but you can't quite place your feelings towards that character.

1:38:00Nicola Walker:The scene by the pull in the first episode where he leans in when everybody else has gone inside and he says to Amy Adams by the way I never told anybody what you did. I never and she, oh my god. I mean I think that ambiguity of you like you don't know what he's capable of and you cannot track what his next move is going to be that is almost more chilling than just the music himself. Even just the way his voice pattern, the way he's, it's almost it's like you look at him he doesn't even look like he's moving his mouth but he's delivering these devastatingly fucking frightening lines it's exceptional

1:38:38Jemaine Clement:you've got the dog yeah as well there's a dog in this

1:38:40Nicola Walker:oh no I can't there is a dog in this I don't want anything bad oh no no no don't okay

1:38:43Jemaine Clement:no it's just a dog yeah he just ends up with a dog very good dog he ends up with a dog 11 out of 10 yeah okay great top dog yeah a top dog but as you referenced Boyle the fact that for the first episode for most of the first episode you only see the back of his neck yeah and the tattoo on the back of his neck until when the reveal of him and his face is entirely in Shadow. Yeah, the visuals on this, it's extremely well directed by Morton Tilden, we should say, who not only is an Oscar-nominated filmmaker, but does a lot of silo, or did a lot of silo as well. So you can see the silo in this. Oh, 100%.

1:39:15Jemaine Clement:I also like how he's manipulated, you're not quite sure how he's manipulating him, you just know some, like the son, he's being manipulated in horrendous ways, terrible things happening to him, but you just don't know exactly what's going on. And they managed to stretch that out right to the limit of tension. and there's a little bit of there's some interesting casting later on is what I would say oh is there

1:39:35Nicola Walker:oh I'm looking forward to that okay

1:39:37Jemaine Clement:Cape Fear then which comes to Apple when Boydie and crucially how many episodes drop it's on already it's oh yeah it is that's right that's right because we've come quite late to this I think two episodes dropped on Friday and that's an episode a week until like end of July very good finally this week we have The Witness on the Netflix which is a three-part true crime story about the infamous 1992 murder of Rachel Nichol on Wimbledon Common. And this one focuses not primarily on the investigation, which was famously botched, but on the relationship between Rachel's grieving partner, Andre, and her young son, Alex, who was the only witness to the killing.

1:40:17Jemaine Clement:Steph, you are, of course, the queen of true crime and know all about this, probably more than the people who made it. So why don't you tee this one up?

1:40:23Nicola Walker:Okay. Oh God, this is just horrendous. If you don't know this case, Rachel Nackell in 1992 was walking with her son on Wimbledon Common, her son, Alex, and he was two. It was three weeks before his third birthday, I believe. um he's walking just having a normal day with her and her son and a dog and she was brutally murdered when i say brutally murdered i think it was 49 times she was stabbed it's absolutely horrific this year marks kind of 34 years since that murder and they uh netflix have brought out not only the witness um which is the dramatization of the events but also an accompanying documentary which is called The Murder of Rachel Nicole.

1:41:11Nicola Walker:I have watched both of them. So the reason people remember Rachel Nicole, it's kind of a defining crime. I, at the time, was 11, and I remember it like yesterday, was because of Alex. Alex was found, and sorry if this is triggering for anyone, maybe don't listen for the next five minutes while I explain what happened. If you find this kind of stuff upsetting, it is very upsetting. He was found clinging to his mother's body look this the witness I think I've said this before that sometimes when we have dramatizations of true crime it's not so much my bag because I like a documentary I want to hear from the real people I want to hear from Alex you know I want to hear from Andre but what's great about what they've done here is they're they're releasing this with this this dual release of this documentary which is Alex and it is Andre talking and it is heart it's heartbreaking.

1:42:07Nicola Walker:Have you seen the documentary i've watched them both i watched them both because i thought i couldn't talk about one without talking about the other and the fact is that one of my issues sometimes when they do dramatizations as i've just said is that actually i want i prefer a documentary but they've done this really well um the little boy that plays alex is absolutely fantastic um josiah williams and then he's played max fincham and jordan bolger who plays andre is also brilliant in this role And what you'll see if you watch both of those things is the recreation of the kind of footage of when they had to interview Alex.

1:42:43Nicola Walker:It's very true to what actually happened. But also in this dramatisation, they intercut with newsreel, which is real newsreel. So there is a big element of this that is true to life. John Pointing's also in it as a detective and he's absolutely brilliant. but it cuts deep to this unimaginable loss and it is very hard to watch and if you remember that case and you know as I said we're not going to give away any spoilers even though obviously this is history this is something that happened

1:43:18Jemaine Clement:I think Netflix is saying even though this is a true crime recounting true events still a lot of people won't know what happened in the end so they're kind of saying treat it as spoilers if you like this is the outcome but you know

1:43:30Nicola Walker:So obviously this case was reopened several times for reasons I won't go into because it will spoil it. But yeah, you get to see the kind of unspeakably cruel process of trying to extract information from a child. And a child that's just lost its mother but obviously has no concept of what that really means. It's painful to watch. It's very beautifully done, I would say. This is one of the better ones that I've seen. and obviously it's been done with the full knowledge and input of Alex and Andre, which is for me the thing that I need in order to find this acceptable in a way, if you know what I mean.

1:44:08But yeah, I would say if you, I think these should be watched as companion pieces

1:44:13Nicola Walker:because the documentary is wonderful. And like I said, it's really heart-wrenching because you do get to see Alex, who was actually, who wrote a book about his experience. And very early on, you get to understand that they didn't stay in the country because the press intrusion was so, so great because, and there were pictures of him going to take and of him going to see where his mother had died because he wanted to and he told his dad and his, you know, I mean, how you navigate that process is, I just, I can't, I just can't even begin to understand. But I do just want to say this one quote. So this is from Alex and he says, we hope that audiences will be left with a testament to the tough battle of life we all face and the power of faith hope love and never giving up and i think that says everything you need to know about this show but yes it is very hard to watch but i'm gonna reinforce what i earlier said i do think you should watch these companion pieces to get a fully rounded view and i think this is gonna sound weird it will make you feel better watching andre and alex in their own words talk about what this meant for them.

1:45:25Nicola Walker:I can only imagine, James, that this was absolutely horrifying for you to watch.

1:45:28Jemaine Clement:I was extraordinarily traumatic. I didn't want to watch it. I know you didn't want to watch it. I was unhappy being forced to watch it and my position did not change. Okay. For all the reasons you say, it's really well done. It's definitely not for me. I just found it thoroughly upsetting. It's upsetting. Completely devastating for so many reasons. But you're right. They did do it with the family's input. The actors spent hours with their real-life counterparts talking to them. It was not filmed on Wynwood & Common, and they didn't depict the locations, and they do not depict the attack as well, which again, all of which is very important.

1:46:01Jemaine Clement:So I think it's handled as delicately as possible. It's just a really, really hard one to watch. I find true crime upsetting, as you know, at the best of times. Yes, I know. Don't enjoy it at all. This is a particularly harrowing one because of two factors. One, and most importantly, the fact that her young son witnessed the whole thing and just the visuals of... He was holding like a piece of paper to her head like a bandage saying, wake up, mummy, when he was... God, it almost makes me want to cry thinking about it. It does make you want to cry. It's so upsetting. And the other thing is, it breaks the kind of contract of what we understand safety to be, which is it happened in the middle of the day in an incredibly well-trafficked public place in London.

1:46:41Jemaine Clement:And there's a part of your brain that thinks that should be safe. And so it's particularly shocking because you're just like, oh, this thing that I thought was safe is fundamentally not safe. And then, of course, there's the whole police fuck up as well, which is a whole other thing. Yeah. But an infamous investigation for a number of reasons, which we won't spoil. But yeah, I mean, it's absolutely devastating. It ruined my day. I don't know what to tell you. It's really good. But it bummed me out for the rest of the day. It is really interesting, though, because the way it's done makes it very, hits home very powerfully.

1:47:18Jemaine Clement:And I think the kid who plays, Josiah Williams, who plays the young Alex, is absolutely unbelievable. How they got him to, honestly... At that age, to deliver that performance. So on an almost technical level, it's a superhuman achievement to make it so authentic. I haven't watched the documentary, but just the drama element of it is so cleverly done Rob Williams created it, wrote the screenplay Alex Winkler directed it and they've just done an incredible job I think it's one of the most because it's such, as you say, it's such I remember it very vividly it's such a delicate thing because you can't possibly know what's going on particularly inside young Alex's head and so all of that is dealt with so well and you just completely believe everyone and why they're doing what they're doing I think one of the most interesting things about it is that they don't soft soap how just how traumatised Andre her partner was played brilliantly by Jordan Bolger who's quite harsh at various points to young Alex and there's no and I'm so and I know they're both involved in the production and they're credited as advisors to the show but for him so I do want to see the documentary you should watch the documentary but for Andre the real Andre to allow if you like the dramatist to quite in quite a raw way to show him being quite unreasonable with his when they move to Catalonia the Catalan area there's a scene there's one scene where they have a big lunch or dinner I can't remember it was in episode one or two with the locals and he gets really annoyed Andre gets really annoyed with Alex for wanting to be a vegetarian and it's completely unreasonable behaviour on his part and furthermore the reason why Alex wants to be a vegetarian because his mum was and that's such a raw moment and I thought and if they hadn't been involved I'd be like that is bold you know to kind of be that to be inherently critical in a way to show the flaws and of course his loss is incredible as well but to show the flaws in the characters as well as I mean with the police don't get me started but with Andre I thought it was really clever and smart on his part as a human being to allow them to do that if you like in the drama

1:49:36Nicola Walker:but it's so important that part it seems very real it's so important that scene because what it's showing you is how much... His mother was killed in front of a woman when he was two years old and he, as he says to his dad, mum didn't want me to. She didn't want me to. So he is kind of the only representative in his life, as it exists now, of his mother's wishes. And it's just so heartbreaking.

1:50:07Jemaine Clement:I think to dare to show the conflict between them is really smart and clever. anyway well I'll tell you the other quirk about it that I thought was fascinating was there are an incredible number of comedian actors in this show you mentioned yourself John Pointing

1:50:18Nicola Walker:John Pointing

1:50:19Jemaine Clement:Kerry Godleman you know Afterlife etc

1:50:22Nicola Walker:oh Thingy Maskell Neil Maskell Neil Maskell Kevin Eldon

1:50:26Jemaine Clement:Kevin Eldon is you know quite a broad comedic actor Mark Stanley Paul Chahidi isn't it from this country and I just thought it was such an interesting it's not that can't be an accident and often I remember Steve Coogan's talking about this, that often comedic actors are the best choices because they can add quirks to a seemingly quite straightforward character and make them feel more real. And I think it completely works brilliantly. Kerry Godlyman is fantastic. Godlyman is fantastic as his mum. And, you know, we're more used to seeing her frolicking around with Ricky Gervais. But it really, the casting is brilliant because you kind of remember, there's quite a few different cops to kind of remember who they are and what they're doing.

1:51:06Jemaine Clement:But the fact that they're cast by them is really interesting. and I think it worked really well. Anyway, it's fantastically well done. Okay. Congratulations to everyone. The Witness then, on the Netflix when? I think it's on already. It's on now. It started again. Another one that was in Bargo that we didn't do last week. Fantastic. Right, that is all we have time for this week. Other stuff that is out this week, I actually don't think there's an awful lot. We've got every year after on Prime, which we may end up doing on Pilot Plus. We'll have to see. Next week, Max Cady himself, Javier Bardem will be on the podcast to talk about being genuinely terrifying.

1:51:37Jemaine Clement:So that's exciting. and we'll have some other shows. I don't know what. What is our pick of the week? Cape Fear for me.

1:51:44Nicola Walker:I would say watch The Witness, but watch it. Everything's great. They're all great.

1:51:48Jemaine Clement:Well, I'm going to go for Alice and Steve. Oh my God. Okay. So there. Fantastic. Thanks very much for listening to the podcast. Do leave us a review and follow us on all manner of social media channels if you will. We'll be back in your ears on Thursday for Pilot Plus. Do listen to our spoiler specials for All Mankind and our Half Man spoiler special, which will be on there as well. Otherwise, we will see you on Monday. Pilot's out.