Half-Man spoiler special

0:08Welcome to Pilot Plus and our spoiler chat, our much anticipated spoiler chat I'm going to say for Half Man, Richard Gad's Half Man. Now, as someone who, and I probably should admit this up front, has not watched all of Half Man, I am going to take a backseat for this podcast and appropriately, this is going to be not Half Man, but Half Boyd and Half Steph with me just listening and, let's be honest, hopefully learning things. So guys, guys, this is all six episodes. Now, you saw them when we reviewed it. You front-loaded this. You binged the whole thing. Everyone else has taken a while to catch up.

0:41What were your thoughts? Yeah, so Boyd and I yesterday when we were in the office like, oh my God, we watched this so long ago. We need to try and remember it. And I know that my overarching thought at the time was this was absolutely incredible and brilliant. And then I kind of rewatched a little bit of the finale yesterday to just remind myself how it made me feel. And I still thought it was amazing. Boyd, do you have an overarching thought about this show? do I have an overarching thought about this show yeah to kick us off it would be a very short spoiler special yeah it's an overarching thought well I remember when I watched it all I watched it all very quickly because I had to interview Richard Gadd remember for this very podcast oh yes remember and it was very much suggested quite rightly I think by people who set up the interview that you watch the whole thing because it's such a story it goes on such a journey the characters go on such a wild ride that and there's so many kind of exceptionally daring elements to the to the six episodes that to kind of say stop episode two or whatever would be madness and then so it kind of very much works as in even though it's full of distressing traumatic sexual violence, violence, you know, etc.

2:11It is incredibly compelling and very much works as a binge watch, at least it did for me. So, yeah, I kind of went through the whole thing very quickly and devoured it. And looking back on it, I think it's so different, isn't it, to Richard Gadd's first? It's quite, it's not comedic, right, in any overt way. In any way. I think there are some very dark comedic, almost comedic moments, particularly once you get into the whole, I think it's after episode 4 once they're in their 30s Niall and Reuben and Niall in particular is going on this kind of sexual odyssey shall we call it, right? He becomes this incredibly sexual being who's always on lookout, you know, who's cruising and he's so promiscuous so promiscuous yeah promiscuous that's the word once that kicks in it's done in such a way I felt it was filmed and written in such a way that it's quite funny in a weird way do you know what I mean?

3:14I totally agree do you know what it reminded me of? you know that film is it Shame? that film with Carey Mulligan and Michael Fassbender Michael Fassbender it really those scenes really reminded me of that film yeah so there's like for example there's a moment I think at the beginning of episode four where the camera suddenly cuts to Niall, like watching loads of men having sex and it's done in a very stylized way. That's how I put it. And it's such a jolt because they're going from when they were still kind of like young men in the previous episode, you know, played by those brilliant young actors to suddenly they're in their thirties and they're just doing wild stuff, you know, and it's very matter of fact.

4:00That's what I think it is. It's like the arrival of this element of the story, which then carries on for the rest of the series, really. He's always looking for promiscuity, promiscuous possibilities, shall we say. It provides a really interesting kind of ongoing theme of the show, which I think is quite funny, the way he deals with that in a weird way. Do you know, talking of that episode, because episode four is my favourite episode, and the reason it's my favourite episode is because they have this brilliant sort of two-hander where they are talking um by the it's by the bedside so um reuben and nile are and it's like i think i said at the time it's almost like a play they they go the the dialogue is extensive and it really they they run the full gamut of emotions of their relationship and i think i referred to it when we first did it as the love story between these two men which for me it really was.

4:51It's a love story. And in that conversation where Nile reveals that he's being blackmailed at the end and Reuben completely changes, he's like, and it's just kind of that feeling that he's got the ownership. If anyone is going to abuse physically, emotionally Nile, it is going to be Reuben. And if anybody else deigns to do that, then they're going to have to answer to Rubin. And it's really interesting. And then at the end of that scene when they say, he says, I've missed you and I've missed you. And it's kind of building this huge crescendo of emotion. I love that scene. I think it was absolutely beautiful and horrendously painful because they have a physical altercation in that scene as well.

5:34But yeah, that's my favorite episode. But I have to say, I never thought, because obviously it does the thing where kind of you get the flash forwards and it's all the flash forwards are all steeped in the wedding scene where he obviously eventually marries Albie. But I didn't think that they were both going to die at the end. Did you have that? Did you think that? I couldn't believe one of them needed to survive. Do you think it was the right decision to kill them, for them to murder each other? It's kind of like a... Well, first of all, there's lots of... I mean, you've gone straight in there.

6:11You've dived straight into the ending question. which is, no, it's the big debate of the whole series because I think people are surprised. Some people feel slightly let down. It is very ambiguous, isn't it? Because at the end of his episode four, we keep talking about episode four. It's the best episode, though. Episode four is a standout episode. Yeah, the police arrived, don't they? And it turns out to be Ruben, who's dead. so Reuben is stretched out of the barn where all the big altercations happened between the two of them and he's dead and you're thinking oh okay well he died so how did that happen and then at the end of episode 6 he's killed effectively Niall right now funnily enough I had a conversation with an Empire staffer about this who shall remain nameless who said what did you think was happening at the end and I said And yeah, I'm not sure.

7:08It's ambiguous, isn't it? And really, because it's kind of implied that Ruben is sexually assaulting. At least it's a possibility, right? Anil. He's kind of like grappling with him and, you know, he's kind of taken his top off. He's half naked. In fact, he may even be completely naked at that point. And he's kind of straddling and suffocating. And, you know, you're like, what is he actually doing? Do you know what I mean? I think it's a question in itself. So that's a bit ambiguous. and then you've got the fact that he then somehow or other smothering him or other he has killed Niall but then we we don't know we know he himself is also dies but we don't know how we don't really know how he dies at all and that so there's a load of ambiguity about that ending so my feeling is this is how in my mind it played out I think and as I said I'm going to say again this for me is a love story between these two men and I found that very Romeo and Juliet at the end I think he kills himself that's what i think he does i think he's i think he stabs himself with an unsurvivable yeah but it's not showing that's my feeling that's your interpretation yeah sure that's that's what i'm saying but yeah but that's what i'm saying because it is ambiguous for me that's what i think happens i i think it ends in that you know that because the love is so intense and the emotions are so intense um yeah that that's that was what i and maybe it is a little bit maybe he's he it's deliberately ambiguous so you can kind of you know choose your own 100 % Yeah.

8:36Oh, no, he said in multiple interviews with Shagad that he deliberately made it, he wanted to make it ambiguous, yeah. But it almost does make sense, because the whole thing builds and builds and builds to this. You're right. I think it is a love story about, in which one of them is a psychopath, right? So it's kind of like, what would it be to be in love with someone who, you know, a few years ago, literally kicked the head in of your, of your you know kind of lover your your love interest and um future future husband um you know you have to kind of get you have to kind of somehow get over that the fact that he would be able to deal with the fact that this incredible act of outrageous violence that we'll we can get to later um or acts of violence if that more than one and that and that um nile still still is in love with this his his brother figure in his life yeah it's a kind of weird incredibly unhealthy tortured relationship but it's because i mean i think the essence of it is that and nile actually says this at a certain point that he wishes he wishes he could be you know like him like he he doesn't have the inner strength or the you know the emotional strength to be like ruben and and And, you know, everyone thinks he's this, you know, he's very intelligent and he's written books and he's gone to Oxford and he's, you know, but he's so, he's got so full of self-loathing.

10:13He's so uncomfortable in his own skin from beginning to end that he never, ever, he's just never gets any peace. I just want to mention, so there's the scene with Mona where they are both, you know, they're in the kitchen and she's, Ruben's kicked her out and they go back into the house. And then they have this kind of angry, Ruben's wife, long time partner. Yeah, but his first love, his childhood sweetheart, who he ends up with, and they are having difficulty conceiving. and it's, you know, for Ruben, that's a real slight on what he believes is his manhood. And it's a huge thing for him and he doesn't want to be disgusted.

10:56And there's some explosive scenes where it is disgust. But then obviously she has sex with Niall and it's, God, that scene is just excruciating because you know what's going to happen. When that happened, I was like, well, obviously then she's going to become pregnant. It's going to end up being Niall's. But yeah, oh God, it actually makes me feel a bit sick. What did you think of that? Because that's interesting. Yeah. What did you think of the big prison confrontation scene then at the end, which is where it all went, because they had the, I think Richard Gale had to work out a way of making it believable that Niall would, would eventually confess to that fact that you just said.

11:34Right. And that's quite, it's quite a far-fetched notion, isn't that? What is, why the hell knowing what a psychopath this guy is, why would you confess? Why would you tell him willingly that you have slept with his wife when you know that the only thing that can result from that admission is massive violent outrage from the person you're telling? I think it was a real kind of, he was drunk with vulnerability. It almost felt like, because obviously in that scene where Ruben is so, is probably the most emotionally available to Niall that he's ever been, and he confides in him his darkest, his absolute darkest feelings about himself.

12:19And he admits things, you know, what happened to him, that he was abused by his father and how he really felt about that and the physical abuse. And Nile is almost lulled into this false sense that now, you know, nothing is out of bounds. You can say whatever and it will be okay because they have this bond, this bond that can never be broken. So anything that happens outside of these two men is going to be fine. And you know, you're talking about kind of, you know, sort of the humour. And in that moment, he laughs. He's laughing as he's telling it. Yeah. And they're both laughing and it's got a very, oh God, it's so sinister, isn't it?

12:59The way that Ruben's face turns, as of course it would when he finds out that his child is not his. and the one thing that he has, the one thing in his life that he's got the purest love for, which is his child, it's a lie. All of that's a lie. So everything in his life has come crashing down at a moment of his most intense vulnerability. So yeah, that's an incredible scene. But you also know by Niles' face, he immediately knows that's a mistake. He immediately knows. Oh, 100%. Absolutely. It's completely, yeah it's like what the fuck is i thinking yeah but i think it i think you see i my i think it's brilliant writing from richard gad this that that scene the prison scene yeah because um i think it's absolutely brilliant writing on richard gad's part because this he has to work out how to get to the point where this conflagration at the wedding happens right and where um ruben is so psychotic at this point, at that point, that he would end up killing Niall.

14:03And by the way, the final, final moment where he kind of like, Niall's dead and he just sits there and he kind of goes, meh, like that, doesn't he? He goes, meh, there's like a sound emanating, like, not bothered. You know, he's dead, not bothered. I thought it was very, very interesting, very clever and funny. But so I think the whole prison scene, confrontation scene, is so clever because you totally buy that Ruben has had this appalling abusive childhood with his dad and again by the way I think one of the reasons why the writing is so good and why he's achieved such success Richard Gadd with just two shows, these two shows is that he does go there where other writers necessarily wouldn't and so there's the bit he talks about and James and this is literally stuff that James could not even conceive of watching.

15:00Oh, no. I'm surprised he's still here now listening to us. It's the stuff that Ruben says. It's like, oh, okay, you know, the detail. We don't need to know. When he says, I didn't know how I felt about it and all that. Yeah. Oh, my God. It's just, it's really, really a lot to deal with. You know, I mean, the whole show could have been re-typed. The whole series could be entitled a lot. It's a lot. You know, always in every episode there's distressing stuff, but it builds to the most distressing climax of this confessional between the two of them. But he makes it plausible that Nile would unbelievably, idiotically confess to the one thing that is going to send his brother figure into paroxysms of disgust.

15:50Yeah, because he's gone to great pains to ensure that Mona does not find out. And even there's a great scene at the funeral. So when Ruben's mother dies and he's let out of prison to go to the funeral and Niall is there and Mona's there and Mona is threatening because she can't live, actually live with the guilt of it. And she's threatening to tell Ruben. She's saying, I'm going to tell him. And then while they're having that discussion, Ruben comes in to find out what they're talking about. And he's so volatile and so aggressive in that scene that she immediately she's like I'm going to go away and I won't this will never be so where she was I want to tell him I can't I can't live with this and then she realizes that she if she wants to survive she has to live with this secret and it can never come out but not only that is that she has to leave both of their lives forever but yeah what did you think about the fact that um because what happens after he comes out of prison is he gets an incredibly lucrative uh job on the oil rigs and he lives in this fancy house and he's with Mona in it.

16:53And then he loses that job because of his volatile nature and because of the way he treats people. But he keeps it a secret. What did you think about that whole thing? Yeah, because he can't not be Ruben. His core is Ruben and his core is deal with everything in a physically aggressive way. He doesn't have any kind of... He's not one for talking therapy, let's put it that way. No. But then again, he does, again, just to hop on a little bit more about the final confrontation in the prison, is that when Nile reveals to him that he's gay, which is he's been working up for five and a half hours of TV drama to this moment, and Ruben just goes, well, and, you know, that he kind of knew and he doesn't care.

17:41That is quite funny, that this intense self-hatred that Nile has developed for himself turns into, well, he just doesn't care about that particular thing at all. So yeah, which I bought, I kind of bought that. So I think, I think you have, he has to keep reminding us, Richard Gad, that this guy is, is, is capable of unbelievable acts of violence. And I do think, by the way, is just, just talk about the, the poor, the, the kicking in the head. Oh, that is a fair guy, the gym guy. Oh, I thought you were going to talk about the gym guy at the end. So there's two like horrendous things. He does it twice.

18:17Yeah. Yeah. it's his yeah it's his modus operandi isn't it is to kind of smash people's heads in and it has become a bit of a TV trope because actually in Euphoria in the Dreaded Euphoria that I've been banging on about in the main pod do they do the head stamping thing Jacob Elordi Jacob Elordi gets his head kicked in yeah yeah very similar and there's another and I was trying to remember I think there's three I think there's three fairly recent examples of big TV dramas where people's heads have been kicked in in a really distressing violent way it's kind of one of the most violent things you can show and because of you know visual effects and makeup effects and you can make it really believable and it's horrendous oh no you know what I'm thinking I'm thinking of the film Obsession in Obsession there's a massive head pummeling in scene that is really hard to sit through so yeah that I think all of these writer directors know that if you really want to shock people with a bout of violence then get people's heads someone to stamp on someone's head yeah because when he does it when he kicks in Benji I mean god I'll come back to the Albie scene but I just want to say with the Benji scene, the way he pans out from the door and you just see it happening through the doorway, oh my God.

19:24It's almost like you can't even stomach it. But yeah, the Albie scene, you don't know what's coming and actually it was really kind of Niall's fault because he was trying to protect his secret, which is underpinning the whole series. His feelings about himself, his self-loathing, protecting the secret that actually in the end, like you quite rightly say, the people who act really love him, they don't care and no one really cares about it. He has girlfriends in the series and they don't care. They just accept who he is and love him anyway. But yeah, the Albie scene. Oh my God. I would say the one thing that I struggle with, One thing I struggled with is I can't quite understand why Albie, gorgeous looking man, right, who's been permanently facially disfigured by this confrontation, in any way he would want to reunite.

20:25with not I don't understand that because I didn't think that their their their loves they had a big love story they had a kind of we're at university I know you're gay um I'm gay too you know they they liked each other but I didn't get the impression it was kind of a love at first sight thing and I don't understand after someone had put you in a coma for six months not only that you had to go through a trial it like that was no doubt the most traumatic thing that ever happened in your life why out of everybody in the whole world you would decide to then you know reunite get into a relationship with this person and then not only that marry that person it's i didn't quite buy that part of it a lot uh i did i bought it i think that um i think it's part yeah yeah i think so because i think part of richard's overall point about this whole thing is that people end up in incredibly seemingly unsuitable, unnecessary, problematic relationships with other people for no good reason or for no...

21:30Things just happen in life that are, you know, shockingly different as to how you'd expect people to behave. People make decisions that are seemingly insane, as in Albie, you know, going back to these people, the lives of these people and it turns out to be completely insane because of what happens at the wedding his wedding is destroyed by and life is destroyed by eventually what happens but I mean I understand why Niall goes back to him I understand why Niall goes back to him because for Niall that was his first and actually I do think Niall probably did fall in love with him straight away I think Albie just fell in love with him as well because you oh you do okay I think even in those short scenes in episode 2 or whatever when you see them as youngsters I do think that I think there's Albie sees a real I don't know sees a bit of a soul mate I think right from the start okay he can sense something he's intrigued by him and I think that might never go away I believe that that never went away you know no matter what happened to him physically physically disfigured as you say he still has an intense feeling I think for Niall yeah I bought that I bought that did you but one of the interesting things about it which we haven't mentioned yet, and there's a lot, there's so much we could talk about all day, but we won't, is that, of course, Nihil ends up being this best-selling author, right, of a novel based on seemingly his life and these characters.

23:01Now, I think, remembering that Richard Gadd has told everyone that he worked on this before Baby Reindeer, right? This was his first script that he wrote. I think, I bet, I mean, I haven't had a chance to ask him, but I bet that that element of it that idea that his main protagonist ends up being a very successful author writing about his own life is a thing that he's put in there as a reflection on what happened to him with Baby Reindeer right because with Baby Reindeer you know this he used elements of his life which he completely admitted controversially and it ended up with him having to deal with journalists asking about it constantly and in this there's that scene where he goes to the press conference and he has to answer stupid questions from journalists about how much of his life is really in this thing.

23:44Now, obviously, it's a book and not a TV show, but I think that's like a tiny, you know, tiny step away from the point he's trying to make. But this is what it was like for me to deal with people constantly trying to work out what was true and what wasn't true in my very much personal, reflective TV show that everyone's watched. So I just thought it was an interesting element of it, that he becomes this successful media figure telling his story. And what did you think about? because obviously Nile's love life and his sex life and everything that he deals with and his sexuality and everything was kind of, his kind of sexuality, it's all very aggressive.

24:24Like all the sex was very aggressive, I thought. But it was kind of juxtaposed with his, loveless, sorry, that's right. Loveless physical interactions with people. But it was juxtaposed with his mother and Ruben's mother had an incredibly loving same-sex relationship. And what did you do? I totally bought their love story and I thought that was really wonderful. But I really liked the fact that, you know, she's talking about Richard Gad's level of honesty in his writing. I love there was a confrontation between Ruben's mom where she admits that she doesn't like Niall and she's never liked Niall.

25:03And really her, like her, you know, all of her protection is for her son, no matter what he's done, even from the beginning where they're trying to make Niall lie in court so that Reuben doesn't go to prison. But I love the fact that we have this kind of two layers of love story and the love story between the women and what they did for each other. And obviously, they took care of each other and they needed each other in order to raise these two incredibly complicated men that were either sides of the spectrum, seemingly either sides of the spectrum in physicality and absolutely every way you would expect.

25:36Did you buy that relationship? I bought it, yeah. I wouldn't say I'm entirely... I'm not a big fan of Ruben's mum. I think she let him... I think she could have... Should we just say had a firmer hand on him as a parent? You know what I mean? You think she wasn't a strong parent? But she had been abused. Yeah, but you get right... You know at the beginning where the dad is standing outside and he's like... Yeah, it's her age. Why the fuck aren't you coming to living with me? Blah, blah, blah. and I think she just doesn't want to be firm and she isn't firm with him because she's endured this horrendous abuse from her husband.

26:13I can see the reason. But yeah, she's a terrible parent. I'm just saying she's a terrible parent, yeah. And obviously that's part of the old, is exploring the old, you know, the absolutely true but oft-mentioned thing that abuse travelling through generations, you know. Yeah, generational trauma creates generational trauma and there you end up with children like Ruben. Yeah, but I still think she, Her parenting skills left a lot to be desired, shall we say. There was no protection. I think what you really got hit home was for Niall. Niall is suddenly thrust in the hands of this lunatic kid who takes over his bedroom and rips all his posters down and forces him to sleep in the same bed as him and this, that, and the other and watch him while he's having sex with a girl.

26:53All of this is like he's absolutely not being cared for by his parents at all. He's been thrown to the wolves, really, so to speak. you know and that's a kind of that's the powerful underpinning of the whole story really is how he's just discarded and left to be the play thing almost I think of of Ruben at the end of it do you feel that there was anybody in this whole series that you you liked or you warmed to or you felt sorry for I yeah I think I think I felt sorry for Niall yeah I mean I think one of the good things again one of the really good things about Richard Gowd's writing and it does go back to Baby Reindeer is no everyone is deeply flawed obviously um i mean there's levels of being flawed there's being a psychopath which i think um uh reuben is and there's just and i think there's just being really really flawed which i think is what um nile is and i think and i don't think he's judging him you know all of all of that promiscuous sex and all of that you're talking about the loveless encounters and all of that it's very i think it's done in a matter of fact way deliberately to not make you think oh right you know we're judging this guy this guy's descending to a pit of immorality or anything like that i don't think we're meant to think of him like that i think we're meant to think of him as oh he's ended up being like this because of his what he's experienced and so um what am i trying to say what was your question oh yeah i do i do like i likeable yeah i like niall i like niall i i feel i i feel sorry for him i think i understand where he's got to in his life and I don't think he deserved the treatment he'd had at the hands of Ruben in the end.

28:33So yeah, I mean, I'm not, but having said that, by the way, it never bothers me if I don't like anyone in a show either. I can happily not like anyone at all. Unlike James, who has to have someone to relate to. Accurate. Well, what I thought was really clever about this is at different times, my sympathies, you know, switched from one to the other and I kind of, I enjoyed that. journey of there were times when I really felt terrible for Ruben and then there were times I really felt terrible for Niall because you know Niall ultimately was his own work he was his own biggest enemy I mean I know that's gonna sound strange but so many of the things that happened to him were because of the way he felt about himself and his reactions to things were because of how he felt about himself and it was it's incredibly sad but again you know the same was with Ruben and for me I think um Stuart Campbell playing the young Ruben for me was the most outstanding thing in this show they were I mean it's hard they were all incredible but for me I particularly thought Stuart Campbell the way he played that young Ruben showing signs of vulnerability whilst simultaneously being an absolute shithead um was was masterful and I really enjoyed watching him I don't know if he's has he been in other things I haven't seen what's he what's he from i haven't seen him no i think i think yeah i don't think so i'm not i think he's fairly new yeah no he's brilliant yeah but i think as you said i think jemmy bell's like incredible stuff and to throw himself into those scenes by the way kudos to i'm not just not not just the nature of those of those scenes is quite extraordinary and um he he absolutely throws himself into it brilliantly oh yeah his fear is palpable you know it really really is And that's why, James, if you ever do watch this, you're going to have to watch it on an iPhone, a very old iPhone that's very small.

30:21You won't watch it. It's not for you. It's not for you. It's too traumatic. But the thing is, one of the criticisms of the show, apart from the fact that a lot of critics have thought the female characters were somewhat underserved and really only served as pressure points for the male characters rather than being kind of entities in their own right. The other thing is just the relentless nihilism and bleakness of the entire thing, which is, let's be honest, not my back. No. No. It's no Handmaid's Tale. It's not like, you know, it's only a limited series. Handsmaid's. It's no Handmaid's Tale. Yeah, but it's, yeah, it is.

30:53But it's, oh God, it's just so good. It's just so raw and gritty. And yeah, you can't, I couldn't look away again. I know we've said this, but Boyd and I both binge watched this. And I think it is that binge watch because you really, and a lot of that is to do with the fact that at the beginning you find out, you know the wedding scene and someone's dead and you're like i have to find out who if it's reuben or if it's nile and then as the series goes on yeah that's an interesting device though isn't it because frame narratives are fairly common but to have this kind of ambiguous time hopping deliberately misleading framed narrative is actually very clever because as the show drip feeds information to you as you say it pulls your loyalties from one to the other and the framed narrative kind of leads you one way and then kind of pushes you in the other direction and you're still trying to put the pieces together as to what's happened because i think gad has um he's talked about how he doesn't want it talked about in the same breath as things like adolescence like it's not about toxic masculinity at all that's not that's not where this show is it's about on the one hand i guess male friendships but also you know the lies we tell ourselves and an internalized shame i think really is probably the theme all the way through it's for both of them because you know you understand reuben i think more than you necessarily understand Niall because Rubens you know even though he's kind of this raw force of absolute sort of masculine fury once you understand where it comes from the pieces fall in its place whereas Niall is a weird weaselly little impulse driven id satisfying creature who's quite you know incredibly self-centered and all of his internalized shame seems weirdly misplaced because as you said both of his like his both of his sort of parental figures are both gay everyone in his life who he comes out to is incredibly accepting of it it's it's he's almost manufactured this sort of lattice of self-hatred and it turns out he doesn't even need a lattice of self-hatred a lettuce a lettuce a gem lettuce of self-hatred to your point about the female characters i would say that was that was a justified criticism yeah if not for the fact that this has never pretended to be anything other than a male dominated show this is a male-led show this is about being a man so i don't think yeah that that's a good point and it's justified yeah it is justified that the there is there is kind of no proper substance really to any of the female characters i'm thinking about um ava it's ava isn't it who ends up being narl's partner who she becomes pregnant and she's very also still very accepting of his um of his um sexuality and he will say to her i've been with a male prostitute and i've done this that and the other um but yeah none of them have the depth and none of their kind of reactions are explored in the same way but then it doesn't it's not pretending to be.

33:48Exactly. I think it would be to shoehorn that kind of thing into this, as you say, the story about two, this is such a story about two men to the point where, you know, the poster and the artwork and the everything about it revolves around these two entities, half man, the title, you know, man's in the title. It's, I think, but by the way, but I do think that from Anjali Mahindra played Ava really well, and even down to the mothers, I do think the female roles are, I'm not saying they're fully fleshed out, but they're totally authentic and real, I think. I totally believe those female characters, which, again, I think is a compliment to his writer.

34:25I think he manages to draw the characters, even though you hardly see anything of the women in the show, every now and then you do. When they do have stuff to do, it makes sense, I think, and I think it's well written. So I would reject that criticism about the women. Yeah, I mean, that's what I'm trying to say. I mean, this is not pretending to be something where the female characters need to be fleshed out. This is not what this is about. This is about Reuben and Niall. And yeah, I suppose the female characters is really about their reaction to everything that happens to Niall, you know, and Reuben.

34:59And I suppose I'd never, I don't, I don't, I'm not, I wasn't watching it thinking, oh, they should have made more of these female characters because that's not what this is. I don't think he was attempting to pass the Bechdel test, put it that way. No. it doesn't pass the Bechdel test and to be fair neither does this world of special because there's only Steph in it so we have also failed the Bechdel test and the Bellen test to be honest so you know we're not doing very well at all that's your test yeah yes but I hope this has been cathartic for both of you to discuss this finally as we've done it you should write a book like The Bellen test by Jay yeah you could do like you know a parody of the Mechdel test but with Bellend have you written any books James?

35:42have I written I've never written a book no you totally should write a book in many ways my West Wing oral history was a book it was it was it was absolutely Boyd and I are going to write a best selling Netflix crazy crime drama aren't we Boydy like his and hers his and hers yes his and hers and then when we do that you should also write a book do the Bellend book I think it'll be good I'll write the Bellend book I think Terry would say that would be my memoir, that I'd publish the Bellend book. The Bellend test, yeah. Indeed. Excellent. Well, we hope you've enjoyed that spoiler special for Half Man.

36:17There is a For All Mankind spoiler special also in your feed, so all of this should keep you going over the weekend. And thank you once again for subscribing to Pilot Plus. As ever, it is greatly appreciated. Until next time, pilot out.

36:37you