Hijack, Starfleet Academy, and Industry. With guests Dawn French & Mark Heap, Konrad Kay & Mickey Down

28:00I did, yeah. Shall we hear about it? They were very entertaining. Yes, please. Well, let's find out if that is indeed the case. Here's Boydie talking to Comrade Kay and Mickey Down. Hi, Comrade. I'm Mickey. How's it going? Good, thank you. Great to speak to you. I'm sorry, I'm sort of losing my voice, so forgive me. Oh, yeah, you've got like a sexy little fry going on. Exactly. Well, I'll take that. Yeah. as the creators and showrunners of industry reaching a fourth season congratulations this must have been this particular challenge because obviously they're not you know your main characters aren't all occupying the same space now they're all kind of gone off in different directions does it feel like a big turning point in the show for you guys?

28:40Absolutely and one that we were kind of forced into doing given the way we left season three which was you know a kind of operatic smashing of all the pieces together and so smashing the pieces apart and scattering everyone across the chessboard. And in some ways, that was very creatively freeing for us because it allowed us to basically expand the show beyond its original conceit in a way that it was already doing, but a way that we kind of turbocharged. The show has always evolved and has always reflected what me and Conrad like to write about. It started as a slice-of-life show in London that reflected our own experiences in banking and the characters to that end didn't have much power.

29:24And it was really about the minutiae of living in London and working in the trading floor. And as the show evolved and the characters got a little bit more power, we sort of expanded it from a workplace drama to sort of, I don't know, kind of exploration of how power corrupts and what you'll do to get power, hopefully still within a sort of grounded reality of the show in season one. and I think like beyond being a workplace drama it's now kind of about a kind of operating system and how the characters, those characters who have always had the same operating system which is kind of the need to both survive and win operate within a bigger landscape and then again like again you know four seasons of a show has allowed us to like play with genre elements in a way that we were never able to in season one through three so the show is, you know, I feel that there's actually no point doing another season of a show if you're not going to change everything and i'm not saying everything every time but i feel like we feel really creatively rejuvenated when we come back to do the next season of industry and we we know we know that the kind of the slate is completely blank and we can throw everything at it yeah it does feel like a bigger canvas doesn't it comrade i mean i'm thinking particularly i was fascinated by how you you're delving into politics and british politics in particular you've got one of the main new characters is an mp a newly promoted labor MP.

30:45That's a really interesting avenue to go down. Why did you decide to explore that area? Yeah, I mean, I'm just going to repeat what Mickey said a little bit, but spin it a bit. I mean, the show started as a slice of life show because that was mine and Mickey's experience of London, of being a young professional. Every season, what's kind of happened is, you know, we were given a very, we were very green when we were given this opportunity by HBO. And every year, I think our skill set has sort of come back a little bit more refined, which has meant that our filmmaking ambition basically has got bigger.

31:16I mean, just because we're more adept with the toolkit, the terminology, and just literally we feel better placed to express ourselves via the actual filmmaking we were doing and via the storytelling we were doing. So what's happened really season on season is a kind of Russian nesting doll of storytelling where we've started small and the apertures got wider, wider, wider, wider. And what we really found out that we were writing about was like the quid pro quo transactional nature of a trading floor. that operating software, that is the operating software. You know, I don't want to sound too grandiose, but this is what we think.

31:47That is the operating software of capitalism. And if that then becomes the basis of human relationships, how does that quid pro quo and the back scratching feed out into the kind of 35 ,000 view of the UK as it is now? Because we're lucky in the sense that we get the show to be quite contemporaneous, get to draw from the headlines, we get to draw from the stuff that me and Mickey are interested in. So season three, we started, you know, The Norton Media Group came in. We had Aurora, the Kunle came in. We were looking at the Tories a little bit, but we didn't. It was at the edges of our Pierpoint story.

32:19And now that the Pierpoint precinct were gone, we were like, well, we can actually write about the intersection of media, politics, tech, not fintech, you know, the sort of, and how, to be honest, how the, it's a kind of closed feedback loop of favours and money, really. So our kind of operating philosophy every season has been follow the money. That's kind of like what it's been. And it started on the trading floor and it's led us up and out into, it's tendrils, it's led us up and out into a sort of bit of a bigger statement about modern Britain, hopefully. For sure, it definitely feels that way.

32:56Yeah, for sure. How does it work between the two of you? So do you guys, you know, when you got commissioned for another season, do you sit down together and thrash out where you think the story should go and what new characters to introduce? Do you have a writer's room? How does it work, that process? All of the above, really. I mean, like, usually before the season has been commissioned, me and Conrad have done some thinking about how we would come back. Season three, quite honestly, I mean, like, as I said, we blew up the precinct, you know, shut down Pierpoint. So how we came back was a bigger question than it had been up to that point.

33:31But again, like, we were like, what are we interested in writing about? we're interested in writing about the world as it is today as conrad said and interrogating the world as it is today so like yes let's let's think about how in what way we can expand the canvas that said we were like what does what from a sort of personal point of view and character point of view what are we interested in writing and what characters are interested in writing and we just love the relationship between harper and yasmin and we thought okay that is a central access of the show and that's what we should be leaning on and how do we this is really grandiose and in a sort of Shakespearean sense, had the intimacy of that relationship set against the kind of like operatic grandiosity of this big geopolitical thing which is happening behind the scenes or in the background rather.

34:15So yeah, that's kind of where we came to it. And then we like, you know, we sort of touched on some real world examples. We wanted to write something that felt propulsive and thrilling. And that's what let us land on this kind of corporate thriller genre, which we've always wanted to write. And quite honestly, if we hadn't been writing Industry Season 4, we'd probably be trying to write this as a movie or something else. And then just going back to your question about politics, I've always been fascinated by politics and that closed feedback loop that Conrad's talking about. I thought it was a quite good opportunity to write about politics in the wake of this new Labour government coming in and see how those things have maybe not changed as much.

34:52We always assume that the Conservative government isn't going to be the corrupt one, the one which is kind of having their back scratched the most. But just because we have a Labour government with great intentions doesn't mean that it's kind of, you know, they aren't as emotionally or financially fused to money or operationally fused to money in the same way the Conservatives are. So I felt like that was just a nice point to make about the UK. And yeah, I mean, these are just like big statements rather than saying we wanted to write a show about sex and drugs and money, which is kind of what we wanted to do in season one.

35:20But again... We still want to do that, though. We still want to do sex drugs and money. We still want to do that. And we always want to make it entertaining. And that's the thing that we talk about in the Writers Room, which we do have. like this can you know it can make a statement about the world we can be writing about these like big issues and hopefully not in a didactic way but like this show always has to be entertaining it has to make the audience want to watch the next episode which to my mind is the point of tv like in a film you can have a bit you can be a bit more navel gazing but tv cannot be navel gazing it has to make you want to press next on the streaming link whatever the fuck it is sorry I swore.

35:58Please don't apologize for swearing on this podcast. Swear away. Boy, we're sort of indebted to you as well, because I know you've been a fan. You were one of the first people to ever tweet about the show after watching this sort of online premiere that we had in season one. So yeah, I wanted to thank you. Oh, I loved it from the start. Yeah, absolutely. Oh, thank you. That's good to know. Thank you. I mean, let's talk about the sex, because I'm absolutely fascinated. It's fascinating by the way you use sexual scenes to kind of propel the story and to kind of fill in the characters. I mean, I read Tohib Jamo talking about his very first day, I think, on set was filming that sex scene, which is as in your face as any we've seen before.

36:41What is your approach to those scenes and why are they so important to the kind of fabric of the show? I mean, it's... So go on, Con. No, you go. You take this. I like to dodge the sex expressions of it. Yeah, OK. I'll dive in. The, I mean, the, the approach, what do you mean? The sort of practical approach or the, in the script, for example, do you, how specific do you get, you know, we get, we get, we get quite specific, specific to be honest. Like we always used to, we've always had an intimacy coordinator, which is, you know, we've never not had one. We were, I think one of the first shows to have one actually, because there was so much sex and this was coming off the back of the deuce, the other HBO show, which had a lot of sex scenes.

37:22and I think kind of popularize intimacy coordinators as a thing. And I can't imagine directing a scene, writing a scene, really without an intimacy coordinator, because I just think it would just be just this sort of weird conflicts of interest in trying to get this to screen. But I feel like it's just so important that the actors feel comfortable enough to do it, because it's quite a strange thing when you step back and look at actually what they're doing. So we try and be as specific as possible, but that's not to say that when we then sit down with the intimacy coordinator and the actors. They don't have their ideas about what they're comfortable with and also what they think the character would do and what the character wants in that moment.

38:02I guess the sex scenes have never been ornamental. They're sort of down and dirty, especially in season one, because they were kind of reflecting young people in London where the sex isn't always great and doesn't always look that great and always doesn't leave you feeling that great. I think as we've you know done season on season and as the show really has evolved to the point where it's allowed to have a bit of romance at the edges which I think actually the show is a romantic show I know that feels like odd to people who have seen it but I do think romance is very important in the show the sex has been able to reflect that and there are romantic sex scenes in the show now the way they weren't in the first couple of seasons you know I would I would look at season three sex scene between Harper between Robert and Yasmin as an example of that.

38:50And there were sex scenes in season four. You know, I'm not sure how much... Am I supposed to spoil this? I don't know. You can, you know, allude to... Yeah. There were beautifully directed sex scenes by Mickey and Conrad. Yeah, yeah. No, no, but no, that would just, you know, feel cinematic and, you know, full of joy and as opposed to make you feel a different way than the ones we used to do in season one. But I think they feel different as well, Conrad, don't they? To me, the sex scenes in industry feel like you've really thought through different things to show. And I'm not going to spoil it, but there's a thing, there's an object that appears in season four, right?

39:29And which reminded me, don't take this the wrong way, of Alan Partridge's drawer. I don't know if you remember. Do you remember his special drawer? What was in there? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah. Yeah, again, just to climb onto what Mickey was saying, we are always thinking about impressions of character to be left through what people want and what they don't get through sex. And we do take pride in the kind of diversity of them. Because I think there are ones which are really bodily and mechanical. There are ones that are romantic. There are ones that feel actually genuinely sexual and sexy, which is quite a hard thing to put on screen and make it not feel pornographic.

40:11So, yeah, I mean, it's a long process. It's like stunt coordination, you know. It involves an intimacy coordinator and actor. It involves tons of writing. It involves tons of blocking. It involves tons of mapping out the scenes on paper, which I'm blanking on what that's called. Remind me, Mickey. Storyboarding. So, yeah, it's an extravaganza, I would say. That's a good word for it, yeah. Yeah, yeah. On to less controversial as well. I don't know. You've got lots of new characters in this season, particularly. Is that like you've got Max Minghella, you've got Tohibe I mentioned, Charlie Heaton as a journalist, which is a really interesting element to the whole story.

40:53Amy James Kelly as the MP who I mentioned, Cal Penn, who I love, campaigned in-house. And didn't he go on to work in the White House? Is that right? He did. He did. Went to work for Obama. That's right. That's right, yeah. Did you ask him about that? We did. We talked to him about that at length. Excellent. So it must have been a particular challenge it strikes me this season, introducing this whole tranche of new characters who you've got to kind of get to know. We've got to get the audience to know and understand who they are quite quickly, which I think you pull off, by the way, spectacularly, because I feel like all of them, we kind of know roughly who they are within minutes of meeting them.

41:30Yeah, I mean, I've got to say, there was just a boldness and maybe an overconfidence to the way we approached season four, maybe because we'd been doing this show for three years and we really felt invigorated by the end of Pierpoint. And we didn't want to sacrifice what made the show the show, which was a properly well-rendered, well-researched workplace drama. But we were just excited about... I mean, we have over 150 speaking parts this season. And to us, yeah, which is crazy. I mean, we cast them all. Julie Harkins, our amazing casting director, Harkin Toth. and we just, we were super, we were excited about creating a universe.

42:10We created a trading floor and now we wanted to create a universe. And I'm really glad that you pick up on all of those actors. They all gave amazing performances and I think we felt in our bones the specificity of them as we were writing them. And then Cal was a great example of someone who's just like, you mentioned House. He's just so dialed in as an actor with so much experience. We gave him so much dialogue to do and he was on set for so few days and he just chewed through it and gave such an electric performance with so much charisma that it kind of felt like, oh my God, I do want, you know, I don't know who this guy is and I've not spent any time with him over three seasons, but God, I want to see more of him, which is a kind of like a nice trick of hopefully the writing, but mainly of Cal's charisma, I think.

42:50Absolutely, yeah. We've run out of time. One more point. Would you, I mean, season four now, would you like to, how far can this go? Would you like to carry on doing the show? You know, get to seven, eight, nine seasons? I'm not sure about that I mean oh come on we have a very good we have a very good idea for season five I would say but that's no we kind of feel a massive amount of privilege to have got to season four quite honestly I mean in the current landscape that feels very rare to get to do something that's still hopefully original that changes every season that has a great fan base but you know allows its creators and that's just not more just me and Conrad but like all our collaborators the actors everyone's behind and behind the camera to just do something different every year I think that's increasingly rare so yeah I mean like we would it would be like looking at gift words in the mouth not to do a fifth season and we still feel creatively fulfilled by it and invigorated Brilliant well I'm invigorated watching it for sure congratulations on another brilliant season and see you soon hopefully Thank you boys Thanks boys That was Mickey Down and Conrad Kay and time now for comrade Kay and her postbag.

44:00Very good. Okay, so this is not so much a question, but it's just a nice... I wanted to shout out one of our listeners, basically. And the listener is Davy Kay, who got in touch, DM'd me, around Christmas time. He started off by saying, hey, Kate Ribena. So I was, you know, at that stage, I was tempted to just spin it, but I carried on reading. And he basically said, he thanked us for the show. And then, James, you're going to love this. And I thought this was a joke at first, and I was going to query it, but I think it's true. He said, this year I've bought 23 family members a subscription to Pilot TV Podcast Network.

44:35Wow. For Christmas. We should set up an affiliate scheme. So that's why he's our listener of the decade. That's incredible. Thank you. Yeah. And he said, I've done this in a very selfish way because I'm always the go-to guy for what to watch in my family. If the pod ever followed formality, then the show would lose its spark. The madness and arguments are the fairy dust that keeps me coming back. I highly value you as critics on all shows which takes me years of watching rubbish. And then he goes on to say how he's listened through, you know, it's helped him through some difficult times and he's just really enjoyed it and the pod makes him very, very happy.

45:09So I want to say a big thank you to Davey K and especially for buying 23 subscriptions. What's his name? 23 subscriptions. Davey K. Davey K? Yeah. Wow. Now, I'm not to turn this into a competition, but if anyone wants to try and beat that, I highly recommend you try. But before that, what you should do is you should marry David Kaye and then you'd be KK. David, get in touch. No, I think you should be married or partnered up. Please make that happen. Yeah. No, because then I'd be one of the people who buys subscriptions. I'm like, no, I've had enough. I've listened to them for long enough. That's a side issue.

45:43Oh, come on. KK, yeah. But yeah, I want to say thank you to David and to say, yeah, subscriptions, great presents. But also on that front, I was looking at our, you know, the reviews, because you always say at the end of the pod to send in reviews. And I have to say, by the way, I think people have been intimidated by Robert Frost's poem. Really? Because we haven't had any since. And I think people think the bar's been set so high that they have to leave it in, you know, limerick or, you know, in poem form. Sonnet. Yeah, sonnet. So, but please do keep people's views. It is quite a normal thing, but you could just do a haiku, which is what, like, five lines or something?

46:21No, no, no, Boyd. No, I think raise the bar. No rhyming couplets. Iambic pentameter or nothing, is what I'm saying, for all reviews going forward. James, you silly ass. We're trying to get more reviews, not less. Anyway, so yeah. Big shout out to Davey, Kaye, and everyone who subscribed, and all our listeners. So, less a question, more a bit. Less a question, more a comment. Definitely not a question. No, it's not. I mean, that's good. Well, sometimes it's praise is due. On your last full, permanent... Full time, yeah. A suitably half-assed effort. No, that's what's good. you cheeky bastard I would tell can I tell you something the postbag is like a full time job FYI but yeah as I'm going to discover I feel I can't wait do you know what one brilliant thing that's going to come out of me going part time is like James having to do the postbag I'm having to take over some of the postbag all of the postbag some of the postbag all of the postbag I'm going to need a different system to the triage system but I think the email inbox just some system would be good is making it a lot easier to navigate but yes you're right some kind of pre-screening is probably required.

47:20I remember back in the day when I used to, like, check all the different social media platforms. And when I said, oh, James, actually, let's just have the email address and you claimed that I was being lazy. Yeah, because I didn't want to check. Yeah, Blue Sky, Twitter, Reddit. I must admit, it did get to the point where it was just unmanageable. So people have often asked, why are we, you know, because on Empire, Chris kind of like cycles between different platforms getting questions. One of the reasons was it just became unmanageable to try and work out. For who? For me, yeah? Yeah, because obviously it's not like the Empire question.

47:49because Chris will put out a shout out of a question pick one and then just ignore the others forever like it's just like he doesn't look at any of the others ever again and then he'll put up another shout out the week after whereas we actually store up these things to cover them yeah and also because it's not just questions it's feedback it's comments and doing it across multiple platforms it just became horrendous so the email inbox is definitely the way forward because everyone is on email not everyone is on Blue Sky Twitter Instagram whatever subreddit so we wanted something that everyone is on which I think is email the great leveller Yes, indeed.

48:19So that's it. Okay, right. Well, that was the... Can we call it a postbag? Can we call it a listener question? We can't really call it a listener question. That was the listener comment. However, what a great comment it was. Yes. And we're very grateful. It's a new segment. It's going to be called Refer a Friend. And the idea is each person has to get the maximum number of subscriptions bought for other people. I don't think you can beat 23. Don't say that. If you can beat 100, Kay will buy you a cake. Oh, God. There you go. I'll tell you what. If you do 100, then you can have some Tony's chocolate.

48:48that Boyd got for free from UK TV yeah don't do it down no I'm giving credit where it's due yeah good yeah shall we have a look at this week's news we've already talked about the pit being renewed for a third season but it's not the only thing that's been renewed is it? no Mayor of Kingstown is that what you're talking about? it actually wasn't but carry on well that's been renewed for a fifth and final season apparently it's good that you mention that because that's the show isn't it when we get feedback yeah we've totally ignored it with people who are obsessed with that show there's one or two of our listeners who are absolutely convinced it's a brilliant, brilliant show.

49:22I seem to remember that we reviewed maybe season one, or I watched season one, first couple of episodes, maybe season two, but I certainly haven't watched much more of it than that. And I do feel it's remiss that we've missed it out. So you're apologising on your behalf? I'm always apologising. This is something, so one of the things that we talked about doing after the feedback, the great feedback thing. That we never heard from. Do you know what? I was going through it this morning, so I'm finally getting around to it. Oh, I got finally. So be prepared for a report very, very soon. One of the things people did say is doing archive reviews, reviewing shows that we've missed, egregious omissions, is something that we should look at.

50:00Mayor of Kingstown is a prime example of something that we should review properly and have a look at on Pilot Plus. Yeah, absolutely, yeah. And it has been renewed for that. Yeah, fifth and final season, so maybe we'll catch up in time. What were you thinking of that's been renewed? Oh, a number of things. Well, first of all, Emily is going back to... Emily is never leaving Paris. This is what I've come to understand. She did go to Rome, though. Yes, she has been to Rome. But do you know what? I'm actually happy with that news because it's returned to form for that last series that I watched. Prior to that, I was like, come on, it's done now.

50:30But actually, yeah, it was a good season. So I'm happy about the news. Can one of you please definitively say to me, is it Emily in Paris or Emily in Paris? What is the official canonical name of the show? I've always called it Emily in Paris. But I think being on this, I call Paris. I think it is Paris. And the reason I say that is because it's an American show and Americans don't go around going, I'm going to Paris. It's Darren Starr, right? Darren Starr show. Has Darren Starr ever said the name of the show out loud? It's a good point. I don't know. I have seen this. I've seen the show. Funnily enough, there was an Access Hollywood piece on it or something where it was in America.

51:05And they said Emily in Paris in that. So I'm pretty sure. So Emily in Paris. I think it's only... Missed opportunity, I'm saying. Yeah, absolutely. Okay. Well, that's been renewed as well. And not only that, but The Lowdown has been renewed for a second season. Which we reviewed. I don't know what podcast it was, but we did do it as one of the many before Christmas. It's the one with Ethan Hawke. Yes, as a truth historian. Yes. I loved it. Oh, I really like that. Yeah. So that's been renewed for a second season. Good news. I've got a bit of five news. I don't know if you were going to mention this, Boyd, because I just think it's interesting that they have commissioned, it's a working title, Power, the Downfall of Hugh Edwards.

51:40Oh, don't even, I mean, this needs more build-up than you're giving it. Oh, come on. All right. Oh, come on. When I woke up on Wednesday morning, I did not expect... I was shook. I did not expect the announcement that fucking Martin Clues is going to play Hugh Edwards in a TV drama. I mean, it's insane, isn't it? I don't think you're giving it the full weight that it deserves. It's absolutely bonkers. It's one of the most bonkers commissions I can think of in recent times. Yeah, so he will be playing, as Boris said, Hugh Edwards, disgraced BBC news presenter. And it's going to be apparently a two-part factual drama exploring the story of how a vulnerable 17-year-old was groomed by one of the most powerful figures in TV.

52:22So I'm interested to see it. I mean, the news that Channel 5 is making a drama about Hugh Edwards is one thing. That's mad enough. But to have Martin Clutes, Doc Martin himself. He's an actor. He is versatile. I know, but it's quite surprising. Give him a chance. No, no, no. I think it's brilliant. I actually genuinely think it's really good of him to be doing it. But I'm quite surprised that he agreed because it's not the kind of thing he would normally do. You know, he's kind of made a career for himself post Men Behaving Badly of quite cosy stuff. Yeah, I know what you mean. Right? In general.

52:54But then look at Hugh Bonneville. Do you remember when he did that ITV one? That ITV one, you have to be more specific. The one which was a Me Too one. He was a TV presenter. Oh, yeah. But that was a fictional... First, this is an interesting discussion. That was a fictional character. Yes, of course. Absolutely. And he was also quite charming and smarmy and all of that. This is Hugh Edwards, whose crimes are, you know, whose behaviour, etc., is quite... I know. I think I was more referenced in fact, you know, Downton's Hugh Bonneville was taking on this kind of role. Yeah, I don't think there's anywhere near the level of bravery that...

53:28Okay. And just unexpected. I think it's completely unexpected. Yes. Isn't it? Your initial reaction was like, what the fuck? I was surprised. I wasn't as shook as you, but... I'm shook. Look, as clearly I'm communicating, I was absolutely shook and stunned by this news. I thought it was incredible. I still think it is. We'll be tuning in. Will we, if James lets us? Hey! If the dictator lets us. Well, we'll see. Do you know who Hugh Edwards was? I mean, honestly, before all of this happened, I had no idea, because I don't tend to watch the broadcast news. But obviously, I do very much know who he is now.

54:02No, it's incredible. Let's talk about Yaya Abdul-Mateen II, because two things have happened. And one, there was a new trailer for Wonder Man, which is the upcoming MCU Disney Plus show, which increasingly is fascinating me because it is so meta. And yes, it has Sir Ben Kingsley as Trevor Slattery, but it looks really mad and meta and wacky and funny and a little bit off the leash. And the fact that they literally even reference superhero fatigue, and I know lampshading is obviously a thing, but I love that they reference superhero fatigue as part of the setup for the show. What is lampshading?

54:37Who's going to say, yeah. So lampshading is a thing where you draw attention to something that might be trite and hackneyed as a way of almost excusing yourself for being trite and hackneyed. So it's a little bit of like, oh, you know, I suppose to a certain extent you could say it happened in the end of the finale of Stranger Things, because there's a bit where one character says, you know, oh, this is a bit trite, isn't it? It's like, ha, ha, ha. But, so this idea is that Yaya Abdul-Mateen, the second play, is essentially the superhero Wonder Man, but he's an actor and he wants to get a role in, well, he wants to get a role in a remake of a superhero show called Wonder Man and he wants to play a character in that.

55:10And Trevor Slattery, who is, well, KU obviously know from Iron Man 3 and whatnot. In my head, I was thinking of Tony Slattery. Right, no. But it's Sir Ben Kingsley. The late actor. He's an actor as well and he's taken the character under his wing. Anyway, it's quite meta. It looks wild. If you haven't seen the trailer, do you watch it? It looks a lot of fun. But it's got me... A lot of fun. Yeah, it's got me interested. I like you channeling Scylla every five seconds. Yes, I've been a little bit... I've gone off the Marvel TV shows of late, but this has picked my interest. that has been a part of it, certainly.

55:39But I'm with you. This sounds like a return to the inventiveness and daring of the very first Marvel TV shows, you know, which were... Well, show, WandaVision, because remember it went straight from that to Falcon, Winter Soldier, but yes. No, what was the one after Falcon, you know... With Loki, presumably. Loki was also pretty... It was, yeah. Was inventive. But also, look, She-Hulk was one of the boldest they've done. Like, that was mad, some of the stuff they did in that. I thought that was great. So, yeah, I'm interested to see where this lands. So that was good. The other thing is we saw a picture of self-same actor in his role as John Creasy in the TV show adaptation of Man on Fire, which is obviously an adaptation of the novel series by A.J.

56:18Quennell, not specifically the Tony Scott film Man on Fire, which is fabulous. But I've read the book, actually, of Man on Fire. And it is quite different from the Tony Scott film. But yeah, he's playing the character in that. Is that a Denzel Washington character? It's a Denzel Washington character, yeah. because he's like a former mercenary, he's like a soldier and he's got PTSD and he's an alcoholic and he gets a job essentially as a bodyguard to a young girl played by Dakota Fanning in the film and things happen and he goes on a tear. Let's just say that. And there is a significant body count.

56:48But yeah, that's coming soon. Yeah, I look forward to that. It's a brilliant film, yeah. Any other news? No film news for me. Okay, we've been schooled. No film news from Kay. Okay, fine. Let's move on. Time now for this week's second guests. And they are, as you've already heard, Mark Heap and Dawn French. And they are on our screens at the moment in Can You Keep a Secret? Which is airing on BBC One. And if you weren't listening, when Boyd was talking earlier, they're a retired couple living in the West Country who embark on a scheme of, shall we say, dubious legality when Mark Heap's character is erroneously declared dead.

57:22Boydy, what was it like making actual, actual Dawn French? It was great. She remembered me from, you know, years gone by. Of course she did. No one forgets you, Boydo. I did an on-set report for Heat on French and Saunders, the most recent, I mean, this is going back years, but yeah, she was actually filmed at the BBC. Remember that? They did kind of a series on which there were loads of sketches filmed taking place in offices within the BBC. So yeah, she remembered me. That was nice. And Mark Heap's brilliant as well. Oh, Friday night dinner. Yeah, legend. Legend. Excellent. Well, let's hear it for ourselves.

57:54This is Dawn French and Mark Heap versus Boyd. I'll get you in a headlock. Physically, physically, if we have a fight, what do you think would happen? I'd have you in a headlock before you could say jackpot. But I'd have bitten your knees by then and you wouldn't even know it. You'd have been felled at the knee. I'd lie doggo and give you a false sense of security. Would you? And then certainly, yeah, yeah, yeah, like that. That's what happens when you know that. It's the advice if you're going to be attacked by an alligator, by the way. Go limp. Go limp and pretend you're already dead. Can I just say to Dawn French and mark gave but i didn't think about advice about being attacked by an alligator would be the thing that we start with it's important to know yeah it was all very important welcome to the pilot tv podcast how's it going how are you doing pretty good yeah excited gearing up for full-on publicity for can you keep a secret yeah um now i seem to remember the two of you playing husband and wife before yes so what gives is it were you just both cast in this show and it's Because we'd maritally come together, for research purposes, for several weeks before we started.

59:01Always handy. Always with protection. We're method. Yeah. And how does the on-screen marriage compare to the off-screen one and the one that you've had before in the previous show that you were in, The Trouble with Maggie Cole? Yeah. It's different, wouldn't you say? Very different, yes. Yeah, the characters are completely different. And obviously the conceit is completely different. Yes. You're morally dubious in both of them, aren't they? Well, that's true. That is true. So maybe... When you get drunk and spill the beans on the village, this you commit larceny and fraud. I do. On a major scale.

59:37I do. I do. But all for the best, Mark, wouldn't you say? I suppose so. Well, that's the question. Is it all for the best? So let's say this conceit to which you refer, and this isn't a spoiler, because people are going to complain about spoilers. You must be accustomed to that by now. But this happens in the first two, three minutes. It's the premise, I like to call it, where you have faked your death. I haven't faked it. No, I just thought I was fine. I just came to. And in the meantime, I've been declared dead. And she's nibbled all the money. You've taken advantage of the situation. I have taken advantage of a sort of sliding doors moment that has presented itself to me.

1:00:15So I wasn't looking for this, but in that moment, it seems like good sense to a man who hardly goes out anyway and to a family who've been shafted, frankly, by the insurance company who don't allow you to claim it if you have Parkinson's, which William does have. And it just occurs to Mad Debbie in that moment that this is a huge opportunity that she doesn't want to pass up on. You call her mad? What's the extent of the madness, do you think? No, it's not madness, really. Moral vacuity. Yeah, there is that. It's a bit like nicking from a supermarket. Well, they make lots of profit, don't they?

1:01:00And they rip off the customers. I may as well just shove it in my bag. Sorry. It's wrong. Sorry, it's wrong, isn't it? It is wrong. It's just plain wrong. It is wrong. But she feels sort of righteous, I think, about it. And for a woman who doesn't like to be thought of as wrong at any point in her life, she thinks this is the right decision. And I think once they jump in, they're in. So, you know, thereafter, they have to try and rescue everything. It's fair to say that in the relationship, you're in charge. I mean, that is quite clear, isn't it, from the start? Well, I'm certainly the bossiest there.

1:01:39I think William has his ways. I think he's learnt, well, that's for you to say, really, but he's learnt how to handle her, I think. And that's by allowing her to go first. It's a very well-worn in marriage relationship. I think, you know, all I have to do is say, hello, you, and she goes, oh, and if I want my way. And I don't mind being told off. I like it. that's a good point because it does seem to be a marriage that's working it works very well and you might expect the comedy to come from the two of you bickering but actually there is a kind of romantic quality to that relationship which is nice I thought definitely there's a history and it's been a long marriage and it's comfortable even though there is a quota of bickering and they're still at it and they're still at it poor old Craig's discomfort that we keep referring to our vigorous sex life.

1:02:38Yes, we're wrestling. Yeah, all of that stuff, you know. Now, upon investigation, this is written by Simon Mayhew Archer, right? Now, I remember the Mayhew Archer who wrote Vicar of Dibley. Yes, indeed. With Richard Curtis. He probably gets less attention than Richard Curtis. Yes, he's a bit of an unsung genius, actually. And now his son turns out to be a great comedy writer as well, John, this country. So that's what was it about him and his scripts and everything that enticed you to? Well, Paul Mayhew Archer bullied me. That's that's the first thing. He did write to me and say, look, I know I'm supposed to go by your agent with all of this, but I'm old and I've got Parkinson's and I don't care.

1:03:22So and it's my son. So he's written a script. And would you like to read it? And I thought, I really didn't, wasn't looking for another sitcom. And I thought, oh, this is going to be awkward because I'm going to have to find polite things to say when I politely pass on it. But then I read it and it's only good. So then I had to. And also Paul has been involved, you know, in a way. It's about Paul in lots of ways. Did you talk to him about the Parkinson's aspect? Yes, and Simon, who's quite a good guide into what it's like living. And actually, I watched his podcast, I can't remember what it's called, Living with Parkinson's, about the wit of him and the humour of...

1:04:08He deals with the situation with a great deal of humour and humanity. And a lot of that is in the script. His chocoholity. I like it, your word. His chocoholicness. He's addicted to chocolate. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. But obviously the bit of Parmesan's I'm playing is that you get the first few years for free, as it were, before the symptoms really get horrible. So he's a good guide for little moments about hands being a bit stiff, a bit shuffly with the feet. It's such a rotten disease. But he's still in the thick of it. He's remarkably jolly about it. He's just so mucking about, isn't he? Well, he wants to live until he can't, you know, and he finds it hilarious, a lot of it.

1:04:56As you say, he for a long time was in that, you know, the plateau sort of stage of it. And he took a show to Edinburgh about it, for goodness sake. He's been very inclusive, does a podcast about it. He's got a podcast, which we're going to have to be on. He does turn up in this. show. Yes, he's there in the chemist. Another thing that shows up in the series later on is you nude. Which is obviously what the audience wants. How do you feel about that? When you read that scene in the script, did you like, yes, I'm going to be in the bath naked that's going to be? No, the opposite of that, obviously.

1:05:37I'm quite used to my arse has graced the screen on several occasions. It has. On piglets as well. Have you? The old cheeks are out again. Was that series two of piglets? Yeah. Do you think you've got a sort of hilarious body? Yep. Yeah, must be that then. No, they actually said in piglets, the arse, the people thought it was, because it was so porcelain-like and perfect, that they thought it was a fake arse. Is that what they told you? No, I did have a little bit of modesty. I don't want Winkles flapping about in the you know in that slot no that's a terrible not the slot flapping about in the slot we don't want that in the air that's got it again that's a horrible it's so sad isn't it that he can't get out he's been stuck in the bath for three hours because the muscles just not absolute nightmare not working yeah that's the worst nightmare yeah Dawn in this case you haven't decided to go nude well I was interested when you said to Mark that he was nude because that's what the audience obviously want and obviously the audience don't want me to get my kit off because I'm longing to.

1:06:52I mean, I can't wait obviously, but I haven't been asked. Well, there's another sitcom. Maybe, you know, there could be another one. It's interesting because it's described as a sitcom officially by the BBC I noted, but actually it's an ongoing narrative really, isn't it? You could come back for a second series. you couldn't go on and on and on like you know one foot in the grave or because it's friends it will have yeah it's gonna have to have an ending at some point one way or another which i've got an idea of how it might but i'm not telling you okay fair enough would you like it to carry it to be continuing oh yes absolutely there's so much more there's so much more i mean you'd never really know until you start filming something how much fun you're gonna have doing it and to be honest you know i mean i guess i'll be 70 in a couple years time and if you if you don't have fun doing something there's just no point and we actually did really enjoy it the the mixture of the chemistry and the just the mixture of all the people including crew and everything was was really good i mean it's an absolute joy to see the two of you two you know tv comedy gods i think so yeah okay i'll take that then yeah yeah that's what i'm saying George Clooney really?

1:08:07do you think? were you just saying you are George Clooney the new George Clooney yeah but I don't know if he's a comedy god he's a god obviously delusional exactly exactly congratulations it's fantastic congratulations thank you very much cheers it is a strange hybrid that's what I would say yes I know they're calling it a sitcom but it's also a thriller 100 % I can't remember if I've ever seen a sitcom that's a thriller. It is really unusual. Can you think of one? Not off the top of my head. No, there's a few kind of sitcoms that have narratives that aren't really, yeah, that kind of go on, but not in the thriller, in the sense of the suspense that you get out of the situation in this.

1:08:45Yeah. And, you know, there have been people who've said to me, well, that could never happen, could it? You couldn't hide a person. Well, actually, people have tried to do this. There was a woman only recently who woke up in the morgue. Was there? Yeah. thank you for that and I'm not a bombshell I read it in the newspapers so it's got to be true she was dead and she went oh what's going on and they said oh my god we were just about to bury you yeah it happens so get up in the loft and let's claim the insurance yeah exactly fantastic I mean that is a perfect place to end even though I thought I was ending about you yeah I know sorry boy I've eaked out the time it's a triumph thank you that was Dawn French and Mark Heap Time now for this week's reviews, and we begin with Hijack on Apple TV+.

1:09:33Season two of Hijack, I should say. This was what we described, I think, as one of the original gourmet burger shows. And we very, very much enjoyed the story of Idris Elba's Sam Nelson, who gets caught up in a hijacking on a plane. Now, that all gets resolved. However, proving that Idris Elba should never go near public transportation, he is now on a train. And wouldn't you know it, the same ship happens to the same guy twice. Or does it? Boydie, I can't turn to you because you interviewed Jim Fieldsmith, the showrunner, and Idris Elba for this show. You're going to hear that interview on next week's podcast.

1:10:10But because you are in the pocket of Big Hijack, we turn to Kay, the voice of reason. Yes. What did you think of season two? I enjoyed this. I wondered how they were going to pull it off because frankly, as you said, we've seen Sam Nelson, aka Idris, on a plane that got hijacked. We saw how he dealt with that. And then when we heard that series two had been commissioned, and I was like, what? I think we all said, wait, another plane? What? And then obviously the train element adds a fresh dynamic to it. But again, you're kind of like, wait, is he just going to end up being this ridiculous unluckiest commuter ever alive?

1:10:43But they've handled it in a smart way because it's connected to the first series somehow. At the very least, we know that Sam Nelson, he's got a meeting with a man from the Federal Office of Justice at the British Embassy. He's currently in Berlin and he's presumably on his way to that meeting. So he's at the central station in Berlin, I don't know what it's called, but so many things happen. It's a brilliant setting for something like this because so many things happen that adds to the tension of the situation because you know something bad is going to happen. Across the town, there's a raid where it becomes clear that there is some kind of terrorist attack that is either imminent or, you know, we don't know what's going on, but it adds to the pressure of this situation where you're like, he's clearly walking into some dangerous situation and everyone becomes a suspect so whether it's the guy he's helping down the stairs with a pram or there's a gaggle of kids one of them's very nervous so you're kind of like wait are they something you're constantly second well i was constantly second guessing everything meanwhile he himself is acting very shifty um constantly checking out cctv which adds to the stress of the situation and then yeah low the uh that something happens to the train it there's it's in a dangerous situation which and it's taken over by the baddies and you're like how can this happen again how is he involved how is he going to stop it i found it very enjoyable even though like half the time i was watching it i was constantly waiting for the big twist to happen or because you you know what's gonna you know where this is going but i think they've done something very clever in this which keeps you on your toes and that's what makes it very entertaining and idris is just obviously quite a magnetic presence um on screen i have to give a shout out to one particular character there's this um i think her name is it may she's an intern um who he met in singapore and she helped him with some kind of deal he was working on she is brilliantly irritated she talks non-stop to sam as he's clearly like figuring out logistics he's clearly got a lot in his mind he knows something's unfolding whatever and she is rabbiting on and honestly you want to you want to reach into that screen and shut her up but yeah um she very much adds to the situation she's a really funny character because it's like no in normal life if you were if you taking the journey on the train and um a really irritating person you vaguely know remembers you and starts banging on about it and won't stop speaking is going to be incredibly irritating anyway let alone the fact that he's in a life or death situation exactly in a hijacked train.

1:13:15And yeah, exactly. And the thing is, in that situation, if you sort of see someone at a distance that you know and you don't really want to talk to or if you've had enough of talking to someone, you can subtly either move on to a different carriage but she follows him. It's like that time. Remember that time when I was on the tube and you suddenly wandered and we ended up on the same carriage completely by chance. Actually, he's not joking. Boy kept trying to walk away and you followed him and you wouldn't stop talking. We had a weird incident where I was coming back from the airport randomly on the tube and it was the other way around.

1:13:42I was on the tube and Boy just walked on in my carriage and I was like what? like it was bananas anyway I tried to shake him off I couldn't I've tried for two decades what can you say? You were the Idris Elba in that situation yeah you were the you were the annoying intern this is one of the things you know I was saying before about The Pit when I was waffling on about that in great for much too long this is the kind of show where even more than season one I think just the sheer level of ambition to pull off a series set by and large in the enclosed space of a train. Lest we forget, a corridor on wheels.

1:14:18Yes, there is, on tracks. In some ways you could call a corridor on wheels with hundreds of passengers. I mean, certainly dozens of them we meet, we see, let alone the ones further back in the carriage as it was back in the train. Not only that, they have to come up with a plausible explanation of how the main character would be involved in such a similar hijack on transport as in Series 1, which they do brilliantly, as you alluded to, whether it's the great use of the word alluded or not, I don't care. Not only all of that, but they sell it in Berlin. Yes. This kind of complete, you know, Jim Phil Smith, who mentions in my interview with him and Idris, that he did live in Berlin, so he knows Berlin.

1:15:00So it's not completely random, but still. Like, imagine depicting it in the underground here. It would be like so difficult and challenging. and half of it is in German because quite rightly they're not playing around with the authenticity half the characters are speaking German because they're German, it's set in Berlin then you've got like the whole situation of having to make a fast moving train appear to be completely believable and authentic and real, which it does all the way through I don't think, I mean James is always the judge of these things LED volumes by the way you know there was a complete explanation by James Cameron of Velidy Volumes on the new The Restless Entertainment Q &A episode how weird people think I hate that show by the way I do obviously listen to every single fucking episode but yeah they've got James Cameron to answer this question we literally had a discussion yesterday and he explains what a volume is because I think it's such a misleading name it's a stupid name anyway anyway back to Hijack pay three pounds to get that kind of gold just the sheer difficulty and I said this to Jim I don't know I can't even remember whether I said it to him during the actual interview recording or whether I just said it in chatting away in getting ready for the interview.

1:16:10And he was, yeah, it was a massive fucking headache that I set for myself to make this thing. Actually, can you imagine doing it, as you say, on the tube? Because you'd be on the Northern Line and you have some bellend, some plum like James, who just walks into the scene watching some porn. Watching heated rivalry. Yeah, exactly. You'd have to reset. Yeah. So just as an undertaking, it's insane. And they've pulled it off because it seems completely real. Everything feels totally authentic. I love the number of red herrings as well, actually. And yet within it, you know, to go back to the gourmet burger element of it, the burger element, there are some brilliant twists and moments where you're like, oh, you know, really?

1:16:48Would that happen? But, and I think Jim, George K, the original, the season one was co-created by Jim Phil Smith and George K. I think George K didn't have much to do with this season. This is mainly Jim as showrunner because George K does other stuff, is doing other stuff hugely in demand, including... Lupin. Lupin, exactly. Can't wait for the new series of that. But I just think this is such, I think it totally lives up to what we, certainly what I loved about season one. And I love this kind of thing anyway. It's like a disaster movie where you meet all the passengers and you have to kind of keep that plate going, if you like.

1:17:25And there are, if I had one criticism of this series, and I've seen the whole thing, James and I banged on about how we've got all the episodes given to us on the Apple portal annoyingly yeah totally spoil if I had one minor critique criticism it would be that I don't sometimes there's long gaps between getting back in touch with the passengers do you know what I mean so initially the first episode does a really good job of introducing quite a lot of characters and to set up the situation because you've also got the control room by the way and I love a control room scene as well yeah that's a good insight yeah all of that you know which people if you like if you like film there's loads of films the runaway trains you know the taking of Pelham 123 if you're a tube slash train spotter like Boyd you're going to absolutely love it yeah so you've got all the actual Berlin people managing the whole Berlin subway system you meet them and you meet Idris and you meet the train driver and you meet all of these passengers now for me there are times when they didn't get back to the passengers too much for me oh you wanted to revisit them more I wanted to revisit them more than they did sorry I'm being ineloquent in describing that you wanted more May action basically that inter Yeah, and it's that disaster movie element of it.

1:18:35I think it was easier to do it in the plane version, right? Because geographically, in the space... Right, and because he'd be looking across the person nesting him, across the aisle. Yeah, you're right, there was more passenger interplay. With this, because of the way, without spoilers, because of the way it plays out, you'd have to actually shift carriages. Do you know what I mean? You'd actually have to physically move, and there's no reason for you to move so you don't tend to. 100%. But having said that, you still do get to know quite a few of those characters. I just personally would have wanted slightly more of that but in terms of keeping up the excitement keeping up the whole such an intriguing premise as to how he's ended up in this situation you're plunged right into Idris' world and it's like what the fuck is going on and trying to understand what's happening to him and to the character and to the wider situation is just endlessly fascinating and gripping so it's just a brilliantly done thing isn't it And I can only hope they do a hijack three, I don't know.

1:19:32Keep them coming. On a bus, on a boat. That may have been done before. The bus that couldn't slow down. We need to have a discussion on Pilot Plus. We need to do a spoiler chat about this. Because at some point, we have to kind of wait, really, until it's all planned, which is a shame. Because there are a couple of big questions I have where in my head, there is at least one enormous, you could drive a train through it plot hole. But it could just be that I'm wrong and I want to discuss it. Is that in the first episode you discovered that? No, I wouldn't say it's a first episode thing. There's a thing that happens, and all the way through I'm like, this thing seems obvious to me, I must be missing something, and I may be, I may be missing something, it could be that I'm just an idiot, but there seemed to be one very particular, you know, cavernous, jubilee line-sized hole.

1:20:25So we must discuss that. This is, as we've said before, like a gourmet burger type show. It's incredibly addictive. It's incredibly watchable. And you are exactly right. I think Idris Elba, almost in any part he plays, he has an on-screen charisma. He's got that movie star quality, doesn't he? He's so watchable. He's an incredibly watchable actor. And watching him do almost anything, he'd be like washing the dishes. He somehow makes it entertaining. And I really like the idea of this. and I think it's really cleverly tied in because the first season, to a certain extent, is quite contained. It's like, well, how do you...

1:21:00Basically, it's die-hard two syndrome. It's like, how do you engineer it so this character is in a similar situation? I mean, maybe you just have Bruce Willis go, how can the same shit happen to the same guy twice? You know, right? Maybe it's as simple as that. The lampshade. The lampshade. But this guy, as in this guy, Sam Nelson, the way he ends up back in the situation is much more strategic. It's much more intricate. it's much more like the DNA it really intermingles with the first season I will say I and there are some big rug pulls in this there's some very big rug pulls it messes with your expectations quite a lot I don't think this is as good as the first series I don't think that's necessarily anyone's fault I think by definition that's going to be you no but genuinely it's not pinpointing someone's fault no but I think it's really difficult to follow because you have this really clean idea of this hijack plane that's a really you know there's a purity to that set up like constant air traffic controller on the ground you know sun in peril it's got very clear threads to it and then like a train by definition I think is a more difficult proposition and following up the first one was always going to be a more difficult proposition and this one I would say is naughtier from a plot point of view and I actually think the Berlin setting really helps it because it gives it a different texture and a different flavour and a different feel and I think having that cultural kind of abrasion I think gives it something so it doesn't feel like the first series I think there are a few episodes on this.

1:22:25I say a few. There's maybe sort of segments in one or two of the episodes where I felt a little bit like the momentum trailed off. I'm not going to give any spoilers as to the reasons why, but there are moments where I felt it slowed down a little bit and I kind of wanted it to kind of keep up that relentless pressure, which I think the first season really does. So I really liked it. I really had a good time with it. But for me, it was definitely a lesser installment than the first one. Oh, I didn't particularly come away with it without thinking that at all. I think it's different enough. I think it's really clever how different it is.

1:22:54And you're right, the Berlin setting helps a lot because you see a lot of it. It feels like wintry and chilly. Absolutely that, yeah. All of that. And it's such an intriguing tweak to the format as to what's happening. So I'll put it this way. For me, I didn't end up even going, oh, this is, you know, is it or isn't it? It was fully up there alongside the first one for me. And it's also got really interesting new cast members. Toby Jones. I mean, Toby Jones brings the full-on... Playing a character who's weirdly like a strange, distorted mirror image of the character he plays in Mobland, which I thought was quite fun.

1:23:28Oh, yeah, yeah. Well, and also you're not quite sure about him. He's ambiguous as well. Deliberately so, yeah. I loved him. I mean, anything... Toby Jones bringing his full-on Toby Jones-ness to the show is, you know, what can you want? So, you know, I think stuff like that made me enjoy it just as much as the first one. It's a really fun show, I should say. It's really well made. It's really well constructed. I really enjoyed it. I think the first season is a difficult bar to clear for me. Oh, totally, yeah. And I think really that's my only criticism is that. And also, I don't know how you could have done, quite frankly.

1:23:58Yeah, fair enough, yeah. But yeah, had loads of fun, watched every episode of it. Great stuff. Hi Jack, Apple TV Plus then, airing or beginning when, Boydie? 14th of January. So that is next Wednesday, 14th of January. 14th of January, Wednesday. This Wednesday, in fact. This Wednesday, Apple TV. No longer called Apple TV Plus. No, just Apple TV. Next up, we have Industry, Season 4 on BBC One. which you've already heard about but it does see some serious eruptions appear in the finance world as well as some new faces specifically Stranger Things' Charlie Heaton who arrives to suitably turn things upside down as an investigative journalist as well as Kianan Shipka who plays an assistant at the financial institution both of whom I would argue make quite the introduction together Kay, this show came to market in 2020 has seen interest rates rise year on year but did you put much stock in season four?

1:24:50I did however I haven't watched the previous series so it's like a lot of it was lost on me I found it frustrating in a way I had the same thing it's frustrating because it's so well written you can tell the characters are well observed and developed etc but I just don't know these characters so I was trying to work out to put it in a facile way goody and bady etc and also because of the language they're using the finance language that I didn't quite understand I was lost a lot of the time but I enjoyed it for the look and the feel of it and as I said, it's clearly very well written. I was more going to defer to Boy's Judgment because I know A, he's a massive fan of it plus he's seen all the series.

1:25:33But then, you had a similar thing to I had but I find that, because I don't watch industry as well I find it quite difficult to watch sometimes also it fails the bellend test spectacularly because everyone is a bellend. And stressful, right? And it is stressful. But what's really interesting is you pick it up so quickly. I felt like I don't know who any of these characters are in relation to the other but actually it's not exactly self-contained but you come to know them quite quickly and by the end of the first episode I felt quite tapped into a lot of dynamics and while there were clearly legacy characters who were coming back and their role had changed ever so slightly I was like okay I don't really understand the relevance of that but the core story of that first episode here I followed most of it Do you know what?

1:26:13I'm doing a total reverse variant because you are completely right I know I know as I was saying it No, it's more that like, you're completely right. You can understand what's going on in terms of like, the gist of it and the story itself is that I felt like I wasn't getting the full depth of it because I didn't... Yeah, no, that's fair. You know, like, so there's this, I can't even recall her name, but the main woman, for example, you know there's obviously stuff that's going on with her that is deeper than... Harper. Yes, Harper. No, it's Harper, who I really, I like her as a character. I was like, you know, I imagine she was there from the beginning.

1:26:44I want to know what her journey was to get to where she is and watch... Oh, you just have to go back and watch the previous two series. I'm going to. What I'm just saying is that I don't think I fully appreciate it in the same way that you would have done. But I can tell it's a really, you know, great press-pitch show. I have questions about her management technique, is what I'm going to say for that first episode. I would say she's an HR nightmare. Yeah. But yeah, I thought she was a fascinating character. Yeah, she's very interesting. And there's, I can't remember the character names, but the two best friends running their own little fund there, their dynamic, fascinating.

1:27:15Reminded me of you two. Concerning on so many levels. I'm joking. But yeah, it really got me because the characters are so slippery and the whole business they're in is just a little bit like that. And also very topical because they talk about instability, they talk about the rise of... Oh, it's so topical. Right, and they're talking about essentially OnlyFans and whatnot and financial models. What's the different name? They've got a different name for OnlyFans. Siren, yeah. So Siren is... But they reference OnlyFans but Siren is obviously a similar platform. Yes, but not only that, and by the way to give another reference I must stop talking about The Restless Entertainment but in the Can you stop promoting other podcasts for me?

1:27:52I'm being honest Can I just tell you one very brief thing sorry to interrupt in the post bag we had one of our listeners you got Bob Bob in fact got in touch and said thanks to Boyd raving on so much about The Restless Entertainment I've started listening See what you've done See what you've done Bob in America We've got your man who wrote in to say he's bought 23 people subscriptions meanwhile Boyd's getting everyone to subscribe to The Restless Entertainment I mean what is happening? Anyway, Marina Hyde explained about porn and how people pay for those services. She talks about the key element in the whole system is the payment company, the company that does the payment.

1:28:29So you've got the consumer, if you like, the performer, you've got the credit card company, but then the shady, mysterious element to the whole thing is the company that processes the payments. And this series of industries is totally built on the company that processes the payments. And it doesn't sound very sexy, but Tender, which is the name of the app that they're going to use, is absolutely key. And payment processing is a massive thing at the moment right now. And industry taps into that. And not only that, there's a whole thing about the Labour government that's just been elected. They somehow seem to have kind of like known what was going to happen, by the way, to the Labour government now that it's in power.

1:29:08And there's a character, there's an MP, who they need to influence to get the approval for their becoming a bank or whatever. And all of that stuff is absolutely like torn from the headlines. Yeah, it's incredible how topical it is. But what's so clever about it, I think, is that they incorporate these really fresh from the headlines things that are happening right now in the world, but not in a way that if you didn't watch it right now or you went back to watch the previous series or whatever, that it would seem in any way dated. They do in a way that it's kind of like, Because the themes and ideas and what it's exploring about the world of finance and the world of capitalism, basically the whole thing is about the kind of possible decline of capitalism, a late period capitalism, and the evil...

1:29:53The moral decline. Yeah. Within the whole capitalist system means that it's almost like an incidental brilliant element of it that it's so topical for me because it's exploring so many other things. I thought it's so interesting how the depiction of sex in this show is astonishing. It is. Don't watch it on the Northern Line, people. Don't do a James. Some of it is even more extraordinary than... Heated rivalry. Heated rivalry. And even more extraordinary than... I mean, the whole show, right from the beginning, one of the brilliant things about industry is that it was showing you that, particularly the young, new, fresh intake of people working in a huge investment bank, their pleasure time is as extraordinary as their professional time.

1:30:38They need to release that stress somehow, boys. Right, exactly. And also, they're working at such a high-powered, intense level that normal, in quotes, sexual life isn't for them. So one of the themes of the show has always been these people, the higher you get almost, and the more powerful you get, the more exotic, shall we say, your sexual peccadillos are. And there are moments, and I asked them about this, without spoiling anything, I asked them about the sex element of the whole show in the interview. there are moments in this series that are absolutely jaw-dropping and i'm sorry there's one in episode two i think you'll know when you see it um with with a male character and a female character and something have something pops up you know that and then in episode i think it's four three or four there's a there's a there's a sex scene i won't say more about it than that and then it there's a cut there's an edit a transition from what happens in that sex scene to normal life, non-sexy, that is hilarious.

1:31:35It's so rude and daring, but it's absolutely hilarious. It sums up the whole tone of the show for me, which is that it looks into these things and it has loads of really interesting things to say about capitalism and greed and people in this whole world. But at the same time, it's got a hilariously shocking but totally justifiable use of sex. And it's key to the whole show's tone. And you'll know when you see that. the transition look out for the transition I think it's in episode 3 I need to go back to series 1 because also I think it will help me understanding the lingo yeah and by the way you know Conrad Kaye and Mickey Downey created the whole thing they're not they direct a lot of the episodes in this series you know and they do an incredible job like there's an episode 4 has a like a set piece scene which is like the Safdie Brothers film you know like you know what was the one before Uncut Gems Uncut Gems is the film that they made together which has this almost unbearable to watch hectic breathless story they do a similar thing in episode 4 and it's breathtaking the direction and the acting and just as a set piece thing slice of TV which is incredibly tense and it has that level of intensity to it it's absolutely brilliant so I think this is I love the show I've loved the show from the start but it just gets better and better and better every year I think this really and now in this fourth series.

1:32:59I think it's partly because it's a big HBO hit now and now the succession is no longer with us. I think this is one of HBO's biggest, you know, brands, if you like to use that word. So it's not only, it's on BBC One, you know, Monday night, 10.40, but it's a big, big thing for HBO and you can feel the level of ambition in it rise year upon year upon year and it's now peak. It's absolutely up there as peak TV, I think. Industry then, which as you say, lands on BBC One when, Boydie? Monday, 10.40pm. Monday 10.40pm Finally this week we have the main event because it's Starfleet Academy on Paramount Plus this is a Gaia Viola series about the eponymous Trek University and Star Trek's first proper YA show as well and this takes place in the future Star Trek timeline after the conclusion of Star Trek Discovery so that's the 32nd century Cain because you were wondering and this sees a group of disparate students making their way through this Federation sort of school for future officers and then a new class in over a century after this big galactic disaster called The Burn, which you will hear referred to, but honestly, you don't need to worry about.

1:34:04Oh, and it happens to have Holly Hunter in it as the headmistress, and Paul Giamatti as a half-Clingon vagabond. Boydie, as our very own half-Clingon vagabond, please tell us, is this a worthwhile enterprise or a load of triple? Nice reference to OG Star Trek there at the end. Thought you'd like it. the news that Martin Clunes is going to play Hugh Edwards is second only to for me the fact that I remember reading when this casting was announced probably we talked about it on this we mentioned it James would have mentioned it but it hadn't really hit home this show this YA Star Trek spin-off like the gazillionth in a whole history of Star Trek spin-offs stars Holly fucking Hunter it does and not only that it stars Paul Giamatti Paul fucking Giamatti two of the best actors in the world today and Holly Hunter so you know what I'm going to say one of my all time favourite of the world broadcast news the legendary broadcast news and her performance in that is one of the all time great performances it's like it's elevated the whole thing to a whole different level so you know whilst it's a fairly bog standard in some ways Trekkie YA twist on the whole idea and there's a captain that board a ship like the Enterprise and there are loads of students who are doing wacky things some of whom are kind of trying to be funny and not that funny.

1:35:34But it's just you've just got Holly Hunter in the middle of the whole thing. You know who else is in this, don't you? Who? Do you know who does the voice of the commuter? Yes! Brit Marling. Brit Marling. And do you know who's the voice of the university dean announcements? It's Stephen Colbert. I mean, incredible scenes. Yeah, absolutely extraordinary. He's so happy. Look at him. I know! Who else is in it, funnily enough, is Gina Yashiri. Do you know Gina Yashiri? Gina Yashiri is a British comedian. And she... She's the Jem Hadar training officer, isn't she? She's really funny. She's the, like, takes no shit.

1:36:02She's really funny. Oh, I like her. Yeah. She's really funny. She's really funny. Oh, she was one of my favorites. Yeah. She has an incredible story because she's a black British comedian who started out, you know, doing stuff on, like, BBC Three. I think I might have even been on TV with her once. Of course you have. Of course you have. Did you start her career? Effectively, yeah. Yeah, I invented her. She was on Would I Lie to You recently, and she moved to LA because she wasn't getting the opportunities here as a creator and actor and comedian. And so she moved to LA, and she's a huge phenomenon in America.

1:36:35She's had massive... She created a sitcom, and I think she's still out there doing stuff, and doing this. She's got the role in this, a big role, and a very funny role in this show. Bottom line, I found it very entertaining, to be honest with you. I thought the... As well as having Holly Hunter and these people in it, which is fantastic. I quite like the idea of this young boy who'd been abandoned due to her verdict on his mum. Right. But also, I thought two things about that scene. So this is a prologue series where the kind of, if you will, if there is a lead character, this is Sandro Roster's character.

1:37:09He plays Caleb Mear. And he is separated from his mother, played by Tatiana Maslany. Yeah, another star. She's just in the first scene. They are kind of separated. And Holly Hunter kind of oversees that separation. and then comes to regret it. I thought it's an interesting, a very pointed discussion on the separation of families, I thought. But also the way they're separated is the very contentious felony murder statute, which is that if someone is killed in the commission of a felony, you are charged with murder. And the fact that, the idea that the Federation in the 32nd century would have felony murder, a charge which many people believe shouldn't be around in the 21st century is quite extraordinary.

1:37:46But again, I thought that was a really interesting commentary. Yeah, no, absolutely. but you're right this show is it's kind of wild actually and like so this is we should say they've been trying to make a Starfleet Academy show for genuinely about 20 years like they've been but they can think of a way of making it work and how do you make like the Star Trek format work in a school and does it work at all and their kind of solution here is to have it so that the Academy is the USS Athena so it's a ship but it can dock like on Earth as you know Starfleet Academy but if it needs to it can go out into the field and it can fly off and do things.

1:38:20It's versatile. It is versatile. It is, if you'll pardon the pun, the best of both worlds. So essentially, it gives you, you know, a space-faring drama but it also gives you the school set thing. So it lets them mix up the formula which is actually very, very smart. And this was being developed, you know, quite seriously and I think I was, I want to say like 2018, like that round to 2020, by Gossip Girl, Stephanie Savage and Josh Watts who did the OC. So it had big YA credentials. Oh, wow. And then, you know, it went quiet for a little bit and then it's come back and now it's finally been realised.

1:38:48and part of me was just like, oh my God, is this ever going to come out? But also part of me was a little bit wary because it is a YA series and obviously for me, Star Trek is no laughing matter and I don't take it, you know, there's no trivialising, that's why I don't like Noah Dex, but I was wary of a YA Star Trek. I literally just slammed my head on the desk. You know, don't mess with my Star Trek formula, especially if you're going to, because there are loads of references to Trek in this, like tons of them from names on the board from all different series, whatnot. The fact that Robert Picardo is in this as the Doctor, famously one of the main characters on Star Trek Voyager in the 90s.

1:39:19So, you know, that's a lot of fun. But what I think is so good about this show is it cleaves very faithfully to what I would call, not so much Star Trek, but it does do that, but it really embraces the YA format. And I don't think you get that so much from the first, yes, Kay, 75-minute pilot episode. Oh, okay, yeah. Right. We've got stuff to discuss. By the time you get to episode two, episode two is a very YA installment of television. It's a little bit romantic. it's a boy meets girl type thing, but with a larger sort of theme and some learnings to be had. And I had a better time actually with episode two than I did episode one, because it clicked for me, the way anus of it clicked for me then.

1:39:58And I thought, I was watching this, I was thinking, this is, and whether you approve of this or not, I wouldn't say, this feels like a gateway drug to get teenagers into Star Trek. Yeah. Because it really has all the kind of OCE type hormonal angst to it, but it also brings in the Star Trek lore and universe. Weirdly, the only thing about it that I don't love is the setting, this 32nd century setting because one of the things about Discovery that I didn't love was that they jump into the far future in the later seasons and it all becomes, it sounds so stupid to say, it's too futuristic for me.

1:40:29It's with the programmable matter and all the sort of floating in the cells and whatnot. I didn't love that. No, I didn't love it. I love, you know, the classic sort of Star Trek. The stuff that's super realistic. Well, yeah, exactly. Well, you know, 24th century Star Trek Next Generation style. You know, I prefer that. And so I didn't love it. But I get why they've done it. It's because the Star Trek canon, the timeline is now so, it's such a minefield to deal with. They were like, well, if you go far into the future, you can do whatever you want because it's the future. And you have to worry about the films and the shows and the crossovers and the timeline.

1:40:58So they've probably done it for their own sanity and I kind of understand that. But part of me almost wishes they didn't. But generally speaking, while this isn't Star Trek for me, it isn't. Like, this is not what I want from Star Trek. I actually think it's a pretty good YA show. And I think they've done a pretty good job of realising their goal here. Kay. oh my god I love that soliloquy James yes I enjoyed this wow yeah I enjoyed it this cannot be the case yeah it is this cannot be the case shall I tell you why I mean for some of the reasons just I mean a few of the reasons you outlined but because for me there was something like I could like hook into like there's the groundedness of this as Boyd said the Caleb story where he's been separated from mother he's on this quest you know I enter this new world and on a quest to be reunited with her and all the challenges he faces, et cetera, et cetera.

1:41:50It was very easy to root for him and that story, wherever it was set. The fact that it was set in space, obviously, is an extra dimension, but I didn't hate it. I found it... You overlooked the fact that it was set in space. No, but actually, I thought, well, it was this depiction of it, I enjoyed. I thought it was easy to digest and it wasn't like, you know, seemed too nutty for me. Nutty. And it was... I really liked the fact that actually it was quite entertaining. It was entertaining, but also some of the characters are quite amusing. It's funny. It's funny. I liked the woman, the comedian you just talked about.

1:42:22Yes, the Jem Hadass. She's like the head of students type thing. And the guy, who's the older guy? Oh, that's Robert Picardo, the hologram. The doctor. The doctor. Yeah, he's great. He's really good. He was very funny as well. Robert Picardo is like the funniest slash best thing in Star Trek Voyager. So this was much funnier than I was expecting. And I just, yeah, I really enjoyed it. Now, the criticism I have... It's sense-based. No, no, not even that. Like I said, I enjoyed it for what it was, and I enjoyed the story. It is that at 40 minutes, I was... That was it. I was done. You had enough.

1:42:50Yeah, and I think it didn't need to go on for another 30 minutes. It's like insane. Like, 40 was a good enjoyment of it. They do a lot in that first episode. Do you know what? In classic network TV, that would have been a two-parter. That would have been a two-part pilot. Because pilots often are, like, you know, it would have been first episode part one, first episode part two. I know what you mean. I mean, look, I enjoyed it, obviously. but yeah I get what you're saying I get what you're saying as a non-sci-fi gal I have to say at 40 minutes that was my limit I was like okay I've enjoyed Star Trek now and now it can but I guess in a streaming era it's almost like you don't need a part one and part two because episodes can be as long or as short as you want weirdly I guess all Star Trek pilots really are feature length but they split them into two parts but in the streaming era you don't really need to it's just we'll stop it when you want start it when you want doesn't really matter so next time I'll just stop watching after 40 minutes basically that yes I'll insert my own break They have a lot of ground to cover in that first episode because they're setting up this broader arc, which is a search for his mother.

1:43:47And also they have to introduce all these characters. And it's because, you know, weirdly, like in a normal teen show, you broadly speaking know your cliques at school, you know, your plastics, your geeks, your whatever it is. Whereas here, you've got like the pacifist Klingon. You've got a weird alien. Oh, yeah, that nice Klingon dude was good. Oh, I liked him. You've got... Sweet guy. Sweet guy. You've got all these various sort of like different types. And so you have to kind of... There's even a holographic student. There's a lot going on there. So, yeah, I had a good time with it. Good. But we are out of time in this particular studio because we have overrun and people want to come in.

1:44:19So, that is it. Because you talk so much about Star Trek. That is it for Star Trek Starfleet Academy, which airs on Paramount Plus. Boydie? Thursday, the 15th of January, 2026. 2026. Yes, Boydo. Indeed. Watch it there. Right, that is it for us on this week's show, except we have to tell you what our pick of the week is and what else is out. Very quickly, Boydie, what else is out? Very quickly, Tell Me Liars, a new season on Disney Plus on Tuesday

1:44:46I'll do anything else actually I'll call the midwives back we don't need to call the midwives I think that's about it right that's it brilliant what's the pick of the week? hijack hijack industry Starfleet Academy right we don't have a pick of the week excellent we'll be back in your ears on Pilot Plus if you don't subscribe please do so and we're going to leave now before we get thrown out the studio but Idris Elba will be on next week's podcast and we'll be reviewing some TV shows and that'll be very exciting welcome to the first pilot TV of 2026 and we'll be back without Kay next week because you're not doing next week's show.

1:45:14Oh yes, my first one off. So Steph will be in the half seat. So, yeah, enjoy guys. You'll have a good old time with Steph and then I will be back in a few weeks. Be wall-to-wall sci-fi. Gosh. Pilot out.