Malice, Summerwater, and The Death Of Bunny Munro. With guests Vince Gilligan, Rhea Seehorn and Karolina Wydra

27:41Yeah. Well put. Very well put, in fact. Thank you very much for joining us. Thank you. It's been a pleasure. Mindful meter. I'm going to keep that one. Mindful meter, yeah, that's a good one. Don't forget meth side story, which I'm taking credit for. Meth side story, yes, for sure. James Boyd, thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you, guys. What a pleasure. Congratulations on our fabulous series. Thank you so much. Appreciate it. Vince, Ray and Carolina have left the studio but fret not fret not because in their stead we have parachuted in one Kay Ribeiro who may may have been hiding because she's not yet seen Cluribus it's hard to say is that true Kay is that a fair estimation?

28:21That is fair and I thought it was a bad look to come in and do an interview of a show I haven't seen You just sit down and go so Vince what is this show? Tell me what's it about? No I wouldn't even have gone there I would have asked for his favourite colour Yeah or yellow presumably from the branding for the show Indeed a bit like ours Yeah a bit like ours Do you know what? Oh my God. You're absolutely right. Pluribus uses Pilot Yellow for their logo. Yeah, as it's known on the Pantone scale, Pilot Yellow. Pilot Yellow. It's all connected. It's like the official Pilot TV show. Not a coincidence.

28:50Do you know what's also connected? You know how we talked about how Pluribus was quite Borg-coded from Star Trek? You remember? Yes, I definitely remember you saying that. Well, what have Apple made available to us? How many episodes? Seven of nine. Yeah? seven of nine episodes I don't understand this kind of chat it's all connected no one knows what the hell you're talking about right there'll be lots of listeners who do unfortunately they're not in this studio resistance is futile okay and someone said to me this morning is Pluribus is it like you know can someone watch it you know and appreciate it or is it like James type science fiction did someone say that oh my god I'm not going to name names someone said is it James type science fiction I was like no no you're fine to be fair that's how I approach all sci-fi and my answer was no no it's quite grounded You'll enjoy it.

29:35That feels like Steph said that. No, I'm not saying. Okay. Okay. Fine. All right, fine. Well, what have we been watching this week? Kate has not been watching Pluribus, but what else have you been watching? I will tell you. So, among the things I have been watching are... Now, I don't have dates or... Oh, here we go. Look at you laughing. I'll be pointing out ones you can't comment on and you'll resent the fact that I'm stopping you from expressing that opinion. No, I'm not going to do four reviews. I'm just going to mention them, but I just can't helpfully tell the listener when it's going to be on.

30:09I can tell channels. Okay, so first of all, Play for Today, big winners. I think I spoke about this last week. Play for Today, big winners. Yeah, so you know the Channel 5, we're not allowed to call them Channel 5, 5, whatever, you know they've resurrected Play for Today. What's Play for Today? We've only spoken about it about on three episodes of this podcast. Yeah, I mean, we did speak about it. We did a quiz. No. We spoke about it even as a news story when it was announced. that, you know, these... I think I have a very sophisticated filter, whereby the second I hear you talking about stuff that I think is not technically germane to this show, it just shuts down.

30:43It is germane to the show. Is it? These are scripted, these are one scripted drama. Oh, okay, because play for, but now, to be fair, play for today doesn't sound like a scripted show. Oh my God, sorry. Oh, sorry, no, Boyd, it's not, it doesn't sound literal enough for James. Also, I think his filter, actually what it is, is that as soon as his lips stop moving, his brain shuts down. His filter, aka doing his emails. I go into standby mode. It's just, you know, environmentally friendly. Well, he's not talking. He's no longer interested. This is Kay's pick, but let me just say, Play for Today, as a brand of one-off scripted dramas, goes back decades to the glory days of public service broadcasting and the BBC, and that is what it's been.

31:24So they were, you know, very... They were a huge part of culture, Play for Today. So it was one play, as in... Play, right! Right. As in play, like soft play. Okay, okay. It's not that kind of play. Now I understand. Gameplay is a play, as in a theatrical... I mean, it's slightly... They should have made that clearer. Oh, God. I'm saying there's a branding failure there. You're right, the fault lies with them. It does. One-off dramas. So drama for today. Okay, yeah, that's fine. Or film for today, whichever you like. Well, indeed. Cool. Anyway, so I watch Big Winners. I don't know which ones have gone out and which haven't, so go ahead.

31:57So this is, I think, due to go out, and it stars Sue Johnston and Paul Copley. And it's about a married couple, long-term married couple who win the lottery and some big developments that happen as a consequence. I really enjoyed this one. I mean, they've all been entertaining, but this one particularly I thought had standout performances from those two. Man of the Manosphere, BBC3. I know that. That's the channel, I tell you. Not quite sure when, but imminently. It's presented by James Blake and is a delve into the manosphere. So today, actually, Monday, the 17th of November, BC3, 10 o 'clock, it'll be on the iPlayer as we speak.

32:37Wonderful. And it's like, yeah, it's a look at the manosphere and the main key figures and the men that are being influenced by it. He actually meets three of them. So, like, you know, whether it be your Tate's or your Jordan Peterson's, people like that, and then... Yes, and then, yeah. Overly, overly, like, macho, masculine, proudly male types like James. What? That's where this is focusing, isn't it? Wow. The James' sphere. Unbelievable. But, I mean, is it good? Yeah, it's really good. Because also you meet these three. I mean, first of all, he's a very sympathetic presenter, James Blake. And he talks to these three different men, different ages, different backgrounds, who are all being like, buying into the teachings.

33:17And some of them are like, you know, self-development stuff, not too bad. But then it's just the rhetoric of these men who are like, Some of them are like, oh, you know, you've got to treat women like they're just like children. That kind of vibe. But also, for example, 27-year-old Builder Jack, he's currently, well, at the time of filming, was in a 100-day semen retention challenge, believing that it retains his masculine energy. So there's that, yeah. Okay, so there's some madness. Because it's like self-help slash self-improvement as a gateway to misogyny. That's how they package these things.

33:50Indeed. And so, like, also, there's another guy, Sam, who's 16. and it's like a lot of this is like um targeting people who are either lost or isolate vulnerable in some way so sam doesn't have any friends and all his friends are in this online community so it's you know it's really interesting it's so it's like i think it's easy to dismiss like oh my god they're all idiots or you know this is all like it is obviously horrendous but you can see you get to see why they are getting to this place where they feel they've got no positive role models or they don't have friends or community and they find these people engaging and they believe this is the way of improving their lives.

34:27This is how populism takes root, isn't it? People feel disenfranchised by the status quo and then they look for alternative solutions. Yeah, like Pilot TV podcast. Indeed, like this podcast. Yeah, that's absolutely right. So I think they are the two main things I just wanted to note. They're the two things, I think, that I'm going to flag and watch. Okay. Are there others that you're deciding not to just taunt us with the possibility? Yes, I like to tease you. You know what my TV tease. Yeah. I've been watching, I hosted an event for Apple earlier in the week for their new Prehistoric Planet series, which is...

35:01Attenborough? Attenborough narrated the first two series. Now it's Tom Hiddleston narrates the series. They've gone down that route. Hiddleston's going for Attenborough's crown. Yeah, I think in narration stakes, you know, like he's got a good voice, Hiddleston. He's a good... It accentuates the drama. I'm dissing Attenborough by no means. No, no, no. Anyway, the previous two series have been massive hits for Apple because they were like celebrations of dinosaurs back to hundreds of millions of years ago. And they had all the classic dinosaurs. It was kind of like Walking With Dinosaurs, which was the BBC's attempt, but like 100 times the budget and just beautifully made, incredibly.

35:46Acura and they'd have, you know, experts. They were made by the BBC Natural History Unit, which makes all of those classic David Attenborough shows, like, you know, Planet Earth, et cetera, Life on Earth, all of those things. So it's got that feel to it. It's like you're watching a natural history programme going out that happens to have woolly mammoths in it, and you completely believe they are woolly mammoths wandering the Earth in the ice ages. It's so brilliantly done. I think it's really at the cutting edge. of. Do you remember earlier this year they revived Walking With Dinosaurs? Did they?

36:17This year or last year. I remember they did it. And it was not great. It just did not. The CGI and the VFX. How long ago was it? It was quite recent. It's budget, isn't it? It's all budget. Well, clearly Apple have put a lot. They have the budget. They have the budget. And it really, I mean, it looks astonishing. It just absolutely looks. The first scene is this kind of ice storm, a snowstorm and you see this man that's and a baby mammoth trying to kind of, yeah, it's really like, yeah, it's really moving and kind of sweet and yet, you know, not too clawing at the same time. But it's just a huge, huge achievement.

36:53So I watched a lot of that in preparation for interviewing the creators of it and the producers of it, etc. Important question before you move on. Yes. What's your favourite dinosaur? I really like what they used to call Brontosaurus. Yeah, me too. It's got a different name now, isn't it? Yeah, it's no longer. Something else. Yeah, it's a huge big thing. Hang on. The Brontosaurus is no longer a Brontosaurus. I don't think it's called that now, no. Because there are lots of those kind of Nicky dinosaurs, like the Brachiosaurus, the Diplodocus. Yes. But I think they are, and the Gigantosaur, but they're all distinct dinosaurs.

37:23No, it's true. Gigantosaur. It's true, it's in Jurassic World. Bigosaurus, yeah. Oh, yeah, you probably rode on the... Indeed, yes. I'm mates with a number of Titanosaurs. But you... So to speak. Yeah, it's a Titanosaur. Is it? Titanosaur. There you go. But hang on, so what was it? So they've renamed the... I think so. I believe so. Yes, yes. My friend Darren Nature, I should have asked him. He's their... Is he a paleontologist? Yeah, and he's like, he knows absolutely everything about these things. Darren, please get in touch to confirm. Yeah, yeah. Maybe I'll try and ask him. Yeah. Yeah, but it's actually heavily embargoed for review purposes, but I will say that it is spectacular.

38:01Spoiler alert. The Jurassic program is there. I'm just describing it. I'm just describing it. Been embargoed for apparently 65 million years. Yeah, that's what I was going to say. Yeah, yeah. So that was that. And the other thing I watch is, I've watched the beginning of the first episode of Death by Lightning. This is a show that we did not get to do. And I'm sorry, I'm blaming Netflix. This is not our fault. The shock has been fired. It arrived without much fanfare. And it was embargoed. There was lots of other shows that week. It was like, which of these embargoed shows do we cover in Pilot Plus?

38:33We covered another one. But it came out. It's been on for a couple of weeks now. and it's got it stars Michael Shannon as the 20th president of the United States James Garfield Matthew McFallion as Charles J. Juteau who assassinated him spoiler alert and it's real from what I've seen it's really good like there but I mean Michael Shannon is really good in everything he's a fantastic figure I went to a Q &A in which he took part for Nuremberg which is a film coming out soon which he's in and he was so he's so charismatic in the Q &A I was like oh my god he's the proper he's the real deal was out last week I believe yes and Matthew McFadden of course from Succession he's just brilliant in this because this character is like a similar character in a way just kind of like oily kind of charismatic but completely no morality whatsoever kind of and he just captures that kind of person that kind of man I guess in many ways no self awareness kind of a con artist but also not intelligent to realise when his behaviour goes completely, undermines him he undermines himself with his terrible behaviour he visits like a kind of commune of women and no other women want to have sex with him and he doesn't really understand why because he's behaving like a complete twat basically so he's basically like twat extraordinaire playing Matthew McFady and he's really good in it, Betty Gilpin's in it Shea Wiggum's in it, Nick Offerman's in it Bradley Whitford's in it And one of the best casts of any show this year, it's a really interesting story, which I had no idea about, how and why this guy ended up getting close to the president and then doing what he did.

40:17Do you know what my theory is, though, is what's happened to it? You're going to bring it back to Trump, aren't you? No, I'm not going to bring it back to Trump. It's that it's only a four-parter. And someone said to me the other day, a TV producer, I was talking to a TV producer the other day, about how the number of episodes per series often is really interesting. And, you know, you're like, some things have five. Like a lot of Russell T Davies' recent shows have had five parts. Remember, It's a Sin was a five-parter. We were talking about things these days, have to have at least five parts for most TV channels to want to produce them.

40:49And four is not enough. And I was like, well, I wonder whether... I mean, I have no idea if this is what happened, but it feels like Netflix has gone four parts. No, no, no, we don't care about that. We're not going to pay any attention to it, hardly. And it's just gone by the wayside. where it's in these five parts, they might apparently, which apparently is the starting point for anyone commissioned to get excited about it. Everyone's time, Paul, bring back the four passes. It's weird that it's gone by the way so much. Four passes seems like heaven some of the time. Great, get this done. I tell you, this is a very fast-moving, pacey show and it's got a real inventiveness to it.

41:22It's a historical drama where they're, we've reviewed a few historical dramas recently where they've overdone the attempt to be quirky and different. In this, I think they do it really well because they just find really compelling ways of telling these people's stories, the parallel story of the president and the assassin, if you like. But, yeah, it's mad that it hasn't had more attention. Well, it's getting in now from Mr Boyd Hill. It's four parts because four parts clearly are what works for telling this story. Good for them, good for the writers and producers of it for making it four parts.

41:50Boyd, good for you for watching. Thanks, mate. Well done, Boyd. Thank you. Death by Lightning, it's called anyway. It's on the Netflix, in case you hadn't realised. James, what have you been watching? Well, I took your advice, Kay. On your instruction, I watched the final episode of The Walking Dead, Dead City, which you, I seem to recall, You're so annoying. insisted that I do. You know you lured me and I thought it was shrinking. It is true. You're such a bastard. You're a big bastard. But you were insistent that I should watch to the end of the season. Yeah, more Zobsies. I did watch to the end of the season.

42:22I think I might be done. I just, I feel like I'm... You said that a couple of weeks ago. But I feel like I am tapping out now. I got to the end of it. I actually thought it was going to go in a really interesting direction. But then I kind of, in my head, knew it wouldn't because I knew it had already been renewed for another season. But I feel like if this had been the final season, there was a very specific moment involving a bat, which I thought would have given it a really interesting... Bat shit crazy? Indeed. You thought they'd all die? Well, kind of. But I really thought they were going to go that route.

42:50I was like, oh, this is exciting. This is interesting. And then it went in a different direction. And I'm a bit like, yeah, I may be walking down. you say that cut to a year's time well we'll see knee deep in it again we'll see well I've kind of I've kind of walked away from Walking Dead Daryl Dixon as well I've kind of I've not I've not continued that are you walking away from the Walking Dead I'm walking away from the Walking Dead in the wrong direction well Craig David Star that's right it's the right direction I'm shambling away from the Walking Dead the long walk the long walk away from the Walking Dead of James' long walk whereby people will be shot if they if they don't keep walking and watching the Walking Dead yes you're mentioning films again I know it's illegal so the other thing I watched is all the episodes made available to me of Hijack.

43:32Oh, I knew you were going to say that. Oh, God. So, that's, I want to say they've given me, is it six of eight? I think they've given me six of eight. You can't give too many details, you'll be taken up by Sniper. I can't give any details. I won't give any details because it's embargoed. But this new trend of apples whereby they withhold, they've done it with Pluribus as well, where they withhold the last couple of episodes, or even just the last episode, just to spite me. They know about your insatiable app. It's personal. Yeah. I feel quite aggrieved. They've been doing it for ages, though, to be fair.

43:59It's not such a recent development. I presumed Innocent is the first one I remember being quite, oh, why can't I have the last one? And then they did it with Foundation. They have started doing it a lot more. And I know this is the most entitled first world problem ever. I mean, just add it to the list of all the twass-ish things we say. That's fair. Like, I didn't get a hamper for this show. 100%, yeah. That's me. And aggrieved as I was by that, I sought refuge in the arms of, let's be honest, a very unlikely subject. What? Because this week I watched the entire season of The Terminalist, Dark Wolf.

44:37Oh my God, James, what's happening? Oh my God. I think we need to stay to intervention. Yeah, we need to stay to intervention. Which we reviewed some time ago and you were both like, absolutely not. I can't remember what that was. This was a Taylor Kitsch spin-off from the Chris Pratt Terminalist. Oh yes. You know what that's like? That's like the butterfly of our time. You know the famous butterfly incident in the live show when we, Rusty Davis staged, shall we say, an intervention. And that show... Intervention derailed you. It was amazing to watch. Prime video, routine, rote, espionage... It's dadcore.

45:11Dadcore content. Dadcore content, yeah. Oh, God, yeah. This is pure dadcore. It's like military. It's basically like Call of Duty, the series. It's the CIA's in it. There's a big twist. there's all this stuff going on I must admit I was all the way through I enjoyed it enormously except I can't really say it's good but I really really liked it I don't know there's something about you know the special ops stuff and all the spycraft I don't know it scratched a kind of Bourne itch I don't want to know about your itch no I don't want to hear about your scratch I really enjoyed it and I was like all I feel I was having a really good time so I had a lot of fun watching Dark Wolf so yeah finished that congrats we should say are you going to the thing tonight that we by the time this comes out on Monday we'll have been able to say we've seen the thing that I'm talking about tonight that you probably okay you're gonna have to be less good yeah you are being quite a bleak here Stranger Things premiere tonight oh it is tonight so no I'm not going to see Stranger Things tonight and the reason I'm not going to see Stranger Things tonight is tonight was going to be our office Dungeons and Dragons so it's absolutely true so we were having our office D &D session except Nick unfortunately is not in the office today and has pulled out, therefore we have had to reschedule.

46:22So at the last minute, it's a pull-out from Nick. It's not happening. And I'm very disgruntled. So come to the... I'm inviting you to the... Oh, just come along now. So you did an RSVP. No, I said I couldn't come. I said, I can't come. It's like Sir John DeLuther, which is the name of my level two human paladin, is needed. Please repeat that. Sir John DeLuther. Oh my God, Sir John DeLuther. You see what I did there? I actually did know this was happening, but... Why did you not tell me this? I could have had so many days of ribbing him about this. I just wanted to let it go, by the way, so I couldn't...

46:59No, never let go of these gems. No, I know, I know. Yeah, it is extraordinary. They were banging on about it on the... See, this is all connected to the Pilot TV podcast. Are you discussing it on the Reddit thing as well? No, but this is all connected to the Pilot TV podcast because when I interviewed Neil Cross about Luther, and there's Luther news coming up in the news section, when I interviewed him, we were talking about Luther as a character, and I said to him to use D &D parlance I'd say he's chaotic good that's his alignment and he went oh my god you're absolutely right I've never thought of it this way before John Luther is a chaotic good paladin and that was the inspiration for my D &D character Sir John DeLuther although it's spelled differently okay well anyway unusually in a way often these big premiere screens of TV shows by the time they roll around we've seen the shows on screeners because we get sent screenings but they have not sent any screenings in advance so they're luring you out the only way to see it this front in advance is to go to the premiere tonight as I am going to watch the opening episode which I believe is 90 minutes long so it's effectively so you're saying to review it on this show I need to go this evening no I'm not saying that too I'm saying you just have to rely on me to review the show I'm happy to do that just so you know I mean it'll be embargoed till the day it airs anyway oh yeah of course it is embargoed so it's almost like redundant now it's just like because it's not going it's decided it's redundant It's not going to be, because what will happen is, in what you're watching section next week, Boyd will talk about it.

48:21He'll fly roughshod over the embargoes. Ride roughshod. Fly roughshod. Fly roughshod. Flying now. You're flying. Yeah. And to hell with it, the embargoes. He'll just say what he says and, yeah, he'll be fine. Steady. I'll be working within the rules. Don't you worry about that. Yes. Yes. No, I'm genuinely very, very excited about it, because advance word. They've had a couple of these screenings already in the States, and the advance word is that people were absolutely bowled over. Oh, really? And the cast was in yesterday. The cast was in. They were. We had extraordinary, if you were anywhere near the, in quotes, green room, which is basically just some sofas in the radio area of this building that we work in, listeners, there were, not only did we have our group of bunch of guys and ladies.

49:03Team Pluribus. Team Pluribus. With all of their associated hair and makeup. 15 people there were all together from that gang. What, Pluribus? Yeah. God, I think there was about 20 or 30. No, no, no. That's just Pluribus. then for Stranger Things there was probably like double that and it was so crowded in the breakout wherever you call it in the green room area it was madness I thought it was a party because I was walking in late and I was like have I missed an invite to something? The funny thing was is there was some shall we say timing issues when we had Team Pluribus in the studio and I was like oh I don't know who's booked it next and so I was messaging reception saying can you just ask them to push it back for like 20 minutes because we really want to continue and they went the Stranger Things gang are waiting to come into the studio so I'm like oh great so the interview is going to get crashed by Team Stranger Things and there's going to be like a whole Anchorman type standoff but that didn't happen what a collision that would have been yeah it's like sorry guys sorry Vince we've got to wrap up Vecna's banging on the door look you can see him there yeah it was extraordinary scenes but yeah it was worth it because obviously we got the Pluribus gang and you got to explain to them all the brilliant things about their show oh my gosh okay I've just got to say I obviously wasn't part of the record because I hadn't quite seen it yet and I walked in afterwards and to say James was giddy he was like so both of them I was like oh wow this has obviously gone really well and he was yeah he was beside himself they were a delight yeah they were they had a good time right yeah yeah as did James I mean let's face it they probably had the best time they've had on this press tour I imagine they didn't say explicitly it was implied you could sit in the eyes yeah can I just say before we forget I never know which section to do these shout outs in another person who listens to the podcast who I met the other day at a screening.

50:49And this guy, who is called Robert Frost. Oh, good man. Yeah. He's the famous poet, obviously. Yes. Not that one. He edits stuff. He's an editor. Could he edit this podcast? No offense, Darren. Oh, my God. Show me. Dare you. Justice for Darren. No, no, it's a replacement for Darren. I'm just saying that he and Darren are basically peers, essentially. A co-op. Yeah, they're colleagues. he's not just any editor he's a BAFTA award winning editor of Slow Horses oh wow and not only just Slow Horses Hijack as well wow two of our very favourite shows Robert Robert mate mate if you could send me the last two episodes I'd consider it a personal favourite I knew that was the reason why I alluded to it to use that word do you know what Robert might have considered it if he hadn't called over a million called him mate yeah one mate too far so Robert and Frost that's what you should have said yeah So it was, yeah, it was after screening.

51:44And he collared me and he said hello and he was a lovely, lovely guy. And then he said, sorry for calling. I'm like, oh, please, God, he does an absolute proper job of editing two of the best shows on TV. I was absolutely delighted. So, yeah, he's a great man. Robert Frost, hello. Great. Yeah, can proceed now. Fine. Okay, brilliant. James is freaking confused. I am very confused. I don't even know where I'm at at this point. It's listener question time. Right, so we have a message from Jane who says, greetings from Michigan. I'm a Brit living over here and love the reviews of British shows that are heading my way.

52:16Quick question. I heard the interview with Jack Whitehall last week and I thought it was fantastic. I've added that bit in. I'm so excited there. And wondered, no, it was implied. And wondered, Very much implied. And wondered, what is your favourite programme featuring a comic actor in a serious role? I loved Eddie Izzard in The Riches, a series which nobody saw, well, nobody I've ever met. Keep up the chit-chat, Jane. Jane with a Y. I saw it in The Riches, yeah. he was good in that to be fair do you remember Kumail Nanjiani and he did the that Chippendales show because I remember talking to him about that because I always find it fascinating when when comedians because on the one hand like people shouldn't be pigeonholed like they're actors they have range they have breadth but you know when you speak to comedians about this and obviously I listened in detail to your interview with Jack so clearly I would know if you discussed this with him but but but but there's an instant you know there's a gratification like like they often say like when you do comedy you know when something's funny or not.

53:13And because when you're doing comedy, there's a goal to it. I think Stephen Merchant talked about this as well when I interviewed him for Walking Dead before I stopped watching it. But it wasn't his fault, incidentally. But like that idea that you know if something's funny, there's a goal, you're trying to make people laugh, that is the goal, you succeed if you've achieved that goal. Whereas if you're doing a dramatic role, it's slightly more nebulous. You're just like, well, am I being realistic? Am I being convincing? You know, it's like, but you're not trying to achieve a goal in the same way.

53:37I'm smiling because I'm loving you explaining comedy. Being a connoisseur of comedy. well I mean as an expert in this field I feel uniquely qualified wait you mean the goal is to make someone laugh apparently doesn't work with me like this podcast Stephen Merchant is a brilliant example funnily enough even though you weren't actually making this point I'll make it for you yeah and he was in Logan right he was those were proper transformative roles he transformed himself for those roles he's played a few he's actually in the film I saw the other night Kate Winslet's directorial debut he's in and he's very funny in that so yes goodbye June it's called and so I think he's a really good example Merchant, the merch to a certain extent Bryan Cranston in Breaking Bad is an example of this right because he's famous for sitcoms he's famous for Malcolm in the Middle and he's a comedic actor or was a comedic actor not a stand-up comic so maybe that's what they're more implying but that was a in fact it was on it turned up in my Instagram feed recently you know that Malcolm in the Middle skit that he did where he wakes up in bed in Malcolm in the Middle and Breaking Bad has been the nightmare that he's been having that made me laugh yeah that's brilliant I misread the question I interpreted it as comedian in a serious role so my answer's not really like so what was the question?

54:47what was the question? no it was comic actor oh so not necessarily a stand-up yeah I read it as stand-up just someone who's known for comedy so I was going to say Ricky Gervais in Afterlife yeah because I thought that was a great thought although Afterlife is also funny yeah but it's also about a man you know yeah a grief-stricken man yeah it's more than that but it is very deadpan funny isn't it like it's not yeah I still think it was a yeah I think it's a good example in this instance I do you know yeah she tried to claw back that is a valid answer yeah who else anyone else I mean Bob Odenkirk if we're staying in the if we're staying in the meth side story oeuvre oh my god he said that too because Bob Odenkirk was again a comedy actor yes although he's also very funny in Better Call Saul he is very funny in Better Call Saul another one that I always thought was Katie Sagal who was obviously very famous for Married With Children, and then played the kind of sort of den mother in Sons of Anarchy, which was an extraordinarily violent show, and in no way funny on any level.

55:50And that threw me a little bit, because obviously Married With Children, she was very iconic in that. So there you go. That's my answer. I'm sticking with that. Good answer. There we are, Jane. Hope we've given you a sufficient response. There you go, Jane. I gave you an answer. I also, but you rejected it. Yeah, yours was wrong. Oh, God. Do you know what? My tongue is so bitten. It's literally just crawling across the floor. Onwards. Onwards. Onwards and upwards. All right, fine. That's it for this week's list of questions. That was quick. If you would like to send your question in, the address via email is pilottv at empiremagazine.com.

56:28let us move on then to the next thing which I'm assuming will be this week's news see what's happened in the world of news now we mentioned Luther a little bit earlier Luther is returning isn't he Boydy not Sir John DeLuther because obviously D &D has been postponed but actual actual Luther yes they're making so this is difficult is this a film story is it a TV story it is a film story but I'm allowing it because it's thematically connected our leader you say leader I say dictator that's fine Our dictator. Yes, boy, no. I'm willing to own that. Yeah. Did you know there's a TV show coming out called Belen?

57:04No. Absolutely true. Really? Yeah, they missed the D off. It's silent, but true. Anyway, I think in a way the most significant news of this story is that not only will it see the return of Idris Elba, obviously, as Luther and Dermot Crowley as his boss, but also Ruth Wilson as Alice Morgan. That's the big point. And she crucially wasn't in the previous film, which is Fallen's son? Yes. Yes, Fallen Sun. And I remember opinions differed as to the quality. I love Luther. Fallen Sun was not my favourite Lutheran installment, it has to be said. But I'm always up for more, because I think it's a fantastic character.

57:41And Ruth Wilson. And Ruth Wilson is the best. Not the best. No, let me rephrase that. She's not the best thing in Luther, but Luther is at its best when she's in it. Of course. Yes. She's like the Hannibal Lecter figure, isn't she? To Jodie Foster. Absolutely, yeah. And their dynamic is fantastic. Yeah, the dynamic is interesting. so and the storyline is this is the storyline right and I'm about to read it but bear in mind this could be any episode of Luther ever when a wave of brutal seemingly random murders hits London Luther is secretly caught back into service how can he save London when everyone on all sides seems to want him dead I mean literally literally could be any of the seasons yeah but it is exciting because I'm a huge fan of the show and I really liked the film it is the film is insane yeah it is because the thing about Luther is it's always been over the top operatic it's a dark fantasy more than anything yeah it's completely bonkers nuts crazy Neil Cross just kind of doing whatever the hell he wants to do without any attempt to be realistic or anything like that and the film was like the ultimate thing but maybe a little too much it was absolute banana crackers yeah with Andy Serkis as Ruby yeah and the killings the murders were of an elaborate nature as well that you felt like oh right now now I don't have to kind of work within BBC guidelines, presumably.

58:57I'm just going to fucking run right. Off the leash. Totally off the leash, exactly. Yeah, so I'm excited about it, yeah. So yeah, the other exciting news is that Alien Earth has finally got its Season 2 renewal, which took a long time, but that's exciting, and they're going to be shooting in London in 2026. I imagine the reason it took such a long time is because FX or whatever probably said to the creators of it, you can't have the xenomorph alien in sunlight again. Just promise us. You can't have it running around in like a Thai jungle. Here we go. And I ended like, you know, some blokes running around trying to catch him.

59:30It was fine. No. It was fine. Honestly, you can't please him with corridors, you can't please him without corridors. Yeah, that's true. Some things have to be in corridors. Oh, Mr. Fussy Fusspot over there. Aliens have to be in dark corridors and humans running from zombie-like things have to be... Call them by the proper name. Zombies. Zombies. Actually, they're infected, but carry on. Yeah, they're infected, yeah. Yeah, no, it's fair. Alien of the Wars, by and large really good it was excellent that's the quote for the poster do you know what it's funny we were discussing in the Empire Office what our TV shows of the year list will be and they were like oh you know what's the pilot TV show of the year and I was like I don't even know where to start cue an epic puncher because we literally didn't have a half year a proper half year list because I was like our lists are going to be so far apart there will be no meeting in the middle there will be no compromise so if we're going to come up with a list for this year we're going to need to come up with some kind of system.

1:00:23You know, yeah, we are, yeah. What we should probably do is make sure we have regular other contributors to the podcast, like Steph should have a vote. Yes. And maybe Beth should have a vote. I'm trying to work out ways basically where his vote is. Get Terry on board. Maybe get Terry on board. And then Nick, and then Chris. Oh, no. And then Helen. No. Yeah, see, got him on Helen. Oh, God. Yeah, see? I see what you tried to do there. You tried to put your thumb on the scale. If they contributed regularly to this podcast, then fine, but they don't. I'm afraid oh Helen's been on this podcast she's been on yeah well you're beloved Helen actually we'll thrush it out you must be compromised well anyway okay listen I've got some disappointing news okay which is that Malpractice which I loved is ending after two series so if you remember that's the one written by Grace of Oriata World Productions yeah it's not coming back for a third series and I'm really gutted about that that is a shame and yet I don't blame them because in a way it had such a specific structure to it in a way both of the series so far they would have to it's one of those things where it's got it's got its own formula right you know it's investigating internal investigations within the medical sphere and people accused of doing stuff of murder basically within that context I think to kind of find another story in that might have stretched it a little bit I don't know so I'm not devastated there's plenty of opportunity anyway it's a it's a done deal, so yeah.

1:01:52I have some DC news. Go on. Well, we've had a couple of DC things. The first is that there is going to be an HBO show of V for Vendetta, which is the Alan Moore graphic novel, the seminal Alan Moore graphic novel, which was made into a film in 2005 with Natalie Portman by the Wachowskis. And if you've seen the little anonymous Guy Fawkes mask, those are essentially from that. But yeah, there's going to be a TV version of that. It's a good story. It's a good graphic novel. I like the film as well. Did you like the film? I didn't like the film. You didn't like the film? I thought it was Juvenile.

1:02:20Really? Yeah. You're juvenile. Once again, I mean... Broadway James, I actually approve that. Thank you. But that's not the only thing because also, while DC Studios are announcing TV shows, there's going to be a spin-off series, a Jimmy Olsen spin-off series from the recent Superman film. You remember Jimmy Olsen? He was in one of the most irritating subplots of that film. I did hate that film, but I hated the Jimmy Olsen subplot more than almost any other part of the film. So, Jimmy Olsen is played by Skylar Gisondo. And remember, he was texting Lex Luthor's girlfriend in that whole subplot, which was so irritating.

1:03:01And so there's going to be a spin-off TV series. I question whether we need this. I will totally take FIFA Vendetta. I do not need a Jimmy Olsen TV series. Oh, no, I'm more into the Jimmy Olsen TV series. Oh, my God. You're the worst. You are the actual worst. We can both agree on. I'm supposed you didn't start with this story, by the way, which is that June Prophecy has announced new casting details. I didn't even know June Prophecy was coming back. Did you not? They released a little video and they were all like, hey, we're making the season two of June Prophecy. I was like, woohoo! I don't remember you mentioning that on the podcast or was I doing my emails at the time?

1:03:33No, you're very switched on. I'm attentive. Anyway, genuinely exciting casting news. This will be exciting casting news, Kay. I'm looking at you. Even if it wasn't about a hard sci-fi fantasy thing, that James loves. I'm checked back in. That James loves, right? Among the new cast for Dune Prophecy Season 2 are Indira Varma. Yes. Yes. Most recently seen in Coldwater alongside Andrew... Lincoln. Ashley Walters. Oh, yeah. Yes. Of Top Boy, etc. fame. Adolescence. Who I interviewed recently for Empire. He's directed a film which will be coming out next year. And Tom Hollander. Oh, wow. Of the White Lotus fame.

1:04:12These are great. I mean, these are great cast members. They're joining existing cast members, Emily Watson, and Livy Williams, who are in the first one, Travis Fimmel in the first one. But that is a really, really good cast. It was a really, really good show. Do you know what? I actually agree with you. It was a really, really good show. Yeah. No, maybe a nice juvenile after all. What a wonderful moment of you two agreeing with each other. Isn't it? Yeah. A brief moment of harmony. Yeah. We should probably touch on it as well on the Shogun news they put out. Do you see that? What news? Shogun news came this morning, that they've set new and returning cast writers and directors for season two.

1:04:43but for me the most kind of interesting and important element of the whole story so there's a whole list of cast members joining Cosmo Jarvis who's my favourite James Cosmo yeah that will never not be funny yeah indeed there you go among the season two directors are Anthony Byrne Kate Herron who's an Empire favourite of course and she was in one of the live shows wasn't she she was in one of the Empire live shows I met her doing that. Listen, this is all very well and good but do we have a date for Shogun? This is the thing, this is what I was going to say. I want dates for Shogun and Black Doves.

1:05:19This is what I'm telling you. This is the most salient point of the story. It's just starting filming in January. So we're going to have to wait. I'm saying minimum This is unbearable. I would say minimum like 18 months to 2 years. Shut up. They're going to make it, they're going to start making it. It's going to be another 10 episode epic. It's basically going to take, I would say, 6 to 9 months to make it let alone arrive on TV. we're not going to see it until like 2027 or something. What's the point? So that was the most like, oh, I'm really glad. But I genuinely thought they must have started filming ages ago.

1:05:50I remember when they announced their second season, I thought, oh, yeah, they'll be done. I think we can all learn a lesson from slow horses, which is that we demand that you start working on three seasons of the show at a time. Do you know what? I actually do agree. No Christmas, no breaks, no rest, crunch time. Give us our shows. Put your fingers up. We're very grateful. The other thing that I did mention, I'm not sure it had been announced is that season two is set ten years after the events of season one. And will probably take that long to make. So that's fine. Well, almost certainly, yeah.

1:06:19I'm tempted to do a re-watch of series one. It was fantastic. So, yeah. That's the... Oh, you know what we should probably mention? Go on. I'm just saying is we don't want to go on about it because James will get scared. It's going to get too political. But, I mean, the BBC has had a riled week, haven't they? They have. So, you know... And in fact, we had an email or someone suggesting that you should become the DG? Me or Boyd? Boyd. Yeah. Listen, his name's in the hat, and as his agent, I'm willing to take this. I just don't see Boyd going for that kind of pay cut. I really don't. Yes, Joe. That's quite funny by your standards.

1:07:00Yeah, that's very good and very true. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's been one hell of a week, yeah. But basically, I mean, everyone's aware. We don't need to cover it, but the director general is leaving. And head of news. Head of news is leaving. Deborah Ternes. And Tim Davies is the, I did an event with him earlier this year. Coincidence? Boyd's touch of death. Yeah. And he's very charming. Kind of quite a funny, charming guy. Is all that. All I'll also say is you're a funny, charming guy. So maybe like, like for like match. Oh, steady. But yeah, there's lots of, it's been a completely calamitous situation.

1:07:34Basically, as everyone knows, they resigned because they edited a Donald Trump speech. They snipped it. So something that he said at the beginning of the speech, they then edited it as if to say he was carrying on saying something at the end of the speech, 50 minutes later, in which he allegedly was inciting his supporters to go and riot in the... Yeah, weirdly, it's almost exactly out of an episode of The Newsroom. Yeah, that's right. Hamish Linklater does the same thing. Spoiler for The Newsroom. when did that come out? a while ago I think we're fine 10 years ago so yeah it's been and there was basically a dossier of complaints accusing Mitt being biased in lots of different areas Israel, Palestine etc I mean the Trump edit thing is pretty egregious the Trump edit was the thing yeah and now he's threatening to send it for a billion dollars okay and lord knows he needs the money yeah alright that is it for this week's news so let's move on to the reviews this week and first up we have Malice on Prime which you heard Jack Whitehall talk about last week.

1:08:36And this is a manny, okay, a tutor, called Adam, played by Whitehall, and he inveigles his way into the orbit of a wealthy businessman named Jamie Tanner, played by David Duchovny, and his wife, Nat, played by Carice Van Houten. Suffice it to say, he has more on his mind than helping his young ward pass her GCSEs. Now, Boydie, you are, if not in the pocket of Big Whitehall, at least hopelessly compromised by association. So we turn to voice of reason, cable there. that's never been said about me no it hasn't thank you but you are full of malice so it kind of makes sense wow thin eyes for Eddie so I really really enjoyed this because I thought Jack Whitehall was fantastic in this role because we're so used to seeing him in like either doing stand up or comedy roles I mean he did Decline and Fall which was a period drama which I went on set of alongside Eva Longoria your favourite yep but he's really good in this and he really throws himself into this sort of nefarious character who is he's a tutor but something's going on beneath the surface he's obviously got an agenda and he's sort of as you said availed his way into this family holiday so the tanners are are very very wealthy they own this beautiful um villa and they've got some family friends staying with him uh with them and he comes along with them and there's just something about like He's constantly, he's very charming.

1:10:02He's well-educated. He gets on very well with the ladies within the group. But there is something else going on, and it's very intriguing. And honestly, did I have Jack Whitehall smashing the shit out of an octopus on my list of things I needed to see this year? I didn't, but it adds to the whole sinister element. So I thought it was great. I think David Duchovny is fantastic also, playing this absolutely gigantic bellend. And their dad, what's his name? Jamie Tanner. And he is incredibly wealthy. And boy, does he like everyone to know it. And it's awful. He's always flaunting his wealth and making people feel bad about it, etc.

1:10:42And yeah, there's a lot going on with him as well. So yeah, I found it to be very engaging. And I thought it was a real good show from Jack Whitehall. Yeah, he's very good. it's what I was not expecting was suddenly in the middle of episode 2 I think it is he visits a sex club somewhere in episode 1 as well he's like yeah yeah which he talks about in the interview yes he does talk about the interview I forgot it was in episode 1 yeah because I watched the first few and what what ensues is quite startling yes and he talks about in the interview about how there's an edited version Yeah, the lengthy version is even more shocking and sudden and, oh my God, right, okay.

1:11:26But it's an interesting, it kind of underlines his amorality of the character and his psychopathy, if I can use that word, I have. And the thrashing of the octopuses, octopi? Octopodes. Really? Yeah, carry on. Yeah, I think he's right, yeah. There you go. the thrashing of the octopodes is a great foreshadowing of the intensity of his psychopathic tendencies Also I love how they're just hanging off the washing line just drying in the sun Yeah exactly just as you do Occasionally just spotting their tentacles thinking oh my god not long for the world But James Wood who wrote who also wrote to Kleiner Fool by the way so that's where they go back the relationship goes back he's really clever at finding ways I think innovative ways of showing Jack's character Adam's madness and his determination to be manipulative.

1:12:15Well, you think I'm spoiling it? No, not at all. It's just that you're talking about the washing line bit. There is, shall we say, an incredibly unsubtle line of dialogue that accompanies that particular thing. And I just went, what? Like, what is happening? What was the line? I'm not going to say because I feel like it's a spoiler. But let's just say he says something. By the way, when I said not long for this world, I wasn't obviously talking about the octopus because they are very much dead. But it's just, yeah, as you say, foreshadowing. It's great foreshadowing. Yeah. And then James Bond comes up with interesting ways of showing just the lengths that he will go to to be manipulative.

1:12:52And yet the mystery of it really is why. Why is his big issue with his fucking family? And there's various kind of hints and little glimpses and flashbacks of stuff that's gone on before, but you don't know. And they keep that very well in reserve. My favourite bit and the maddest bit of the whole thing, even beating the sex dungeon club bit, which is extraordinary. The brilliant thing about the sex club is it just completely arrives out of nowhere. He's just walking along. You think, Elmer's going to go and visit someone on the mainland of Greece. And then just literally goes down the stairs and there's full-on nakedness happening in front of his eyes.

1:13:24He just sits there kind of going, oh yeah, this is fun. I'm getting confused. I think it must be in episode two as well. There's a strip club in the first one. Oh yeah, no, no, no. This is different. Oh, an actual sex club? Oh yeah, absolutely. Oh yeah, this is very different. Yeah, Pete, you'll see it. You'll know when you see it. It's a moment. Adam's having a good time. It's a fucking moment, I tell you. And it is the suddenness of it that is genius. But the even madder moment, and I think one of the maddest moments in Jack's acting career, is when he does this fucking Greek dance in episode two.

1:13:54Honestly, he does. Which you also talk about in the interview. We also talk about the interview. Oh, you have listened to it. I have. That's why you're saying it proudly. Yeah, it is absolutely wild. Oh, I can't wait for it to say it either. And it's just a really ingenious way of just showing how his self-confidence and his absolute determination to do whatever the fuck he wants to do to impress people, basically. And all these people standing around watching him doing this thing. It's quite something to watch. So yeah, I think he's done a really good job. I love David Duchovny and everything.

1:14:24I mean, David Duchovny, going back to the X-Files, he was like the X-Files. And he was a key part of the Larry Sanders show, which was the brilliant piss-take of American chat shows. And David Duchovny was like a recurring figure playing himself, playing like an extreme mad version of himself in that. And part of the whole joke of it was that he was in love with Larry and he was kind of obsessed. And there's lots of references to him having sex and taking his clothes off and then sure enough, in the very first scene, he gets his bum out and he goes full on for a rampant scene of intimacy with Carice Van Houten, who is also great.

1:14:59They're all really good, aren't they? Carice Van Houten's great as well. So yeah, I'm in favour of the whole thing, I have to say. James, just say that line that you're talking about has just popped into my head. And it's really weird because it's another show we're going to review something similar happens and it's just so out of the blue. Yeah. I didn't love that line because I was like you wouldn't you just wouldn't say that because he has he has an objective and an agenda and it's self-defeating and it just didn't sit right with me. Some people lose control sometimes. Yeah, I think he also likes playing games with himself in a way.

1:15:27Like it's a whole kind of elaborate game. There's an element of that to it. I think he enjoys pushing it as far as he can. There's a guacamole incident in the first episode that was a thing. And the other thing, the thing that mainly stuck with me about this, there is an unexpected Thorpe Park reference from David Duchovny. And I was just like, what? I love that reference. I thought, oh, brilliant. Yeah, I really enjoyed that, actually. I thought that was great. Taken as a whole, I mean, they must have had a whale of a time shooting this because it's stunning. Yes. They're basically all on holiday.

1:15:58It's not a hard gig. No, it's not. I didn't love it. I didn't hate it. I didn't dislike it at all. But you want to watch more, right? No. Oh. I think that's it. It didn't seize me. But then I'm not sure I love that Cuckoo in the Nest format. Like, often that's one. I don't know. I think I find them quite stressful, those kind of things. Hand of the Rockstar Cradle type things. Those, you know, single white female. That very specifically that there's a sociopath there, and we know they're a sociopath, and it's obvious they're a sociopath, but the people around them are utterly oblivious to it. I find that quite a frustrating and quite stressful dynamic.

1:16:31That's a very you reason for not watching it. It is a stressful watch, but I'm here for the single white man vibe. I mean, single white female and Halux, I love those films. I mean, they are undeniably good, but yes. James Wood, in the interviews building up to this, talked about how they were absolute influences on him as well. He's acknowledged that those shows, those like 90s, 80s, 90s psychological thrillers with the person from hell, the manny from hell, the nanny from hell, the neighbour from hell, etc. Do you know what actually all three shows we're reviewing this week are stressful watches?

1:17:02Yes, they are. And they're all stressful parenting watches as well. Like, it's very thematic this week. So, yeah, I don't have huge complaints about it. And I thought, like we were saying in that question earlier, I do enjoy it when traditionally comic actors play against type in dramatic roles. And he is particularly chilling in this, because I think partly because you just don't expect that from him. But it does also fail the bell-end test, I have to be said. Everyone in this pretty much is a bell-end. And I found it quite stressful. But so is the world, James. That is true. That is true. So it's accurate, really, is what we're saying.

1:17:33Yeah, it's like a documentary. Yeah. I thought it was beautifully shot. Yeah, it looks great. You are right. I think the whole Whitehall family joined in for a set visit. Oh, yeah. Yeah, why wouldn't you? Hello. I'm furious we didn't get invited along. Oh, I'm furious I didn't get to. I should have. I remember when it was announced, the whole thing, I was like, oh, yeah, I really should get vague on my way into this set visit thing. A boydo in that nest. Well, you went on holiday with big Tom Davis, didn't you? I know, exactly, yeah. So, in fact, surely it's the turn of James or me. Yeah, that's it.

1:18:01It's our turn. Okay, that is Malice then, which debuts on the Prime, Prime Video. It's on now, because it arrived on Friday. It's not on now, boy, it's on Prime. It arrived on Prime on Friday. Okay, Thought Park and Go-Go. Right, next up we have Summer Water on Channel 4. This is based on the novel by Sarah Moss and adapted here by John Donnelly. It takes place in and around the eponymous getaway, which is a kind of rural Scottish holiday park around a lake, and that plays host to an assortment of people with, let's be honest, quite pronounced psychological issues. It stars, among other people, do Grace Scott and Shirley Henderson.

1:18:39Now, we have had, this year, cold water, people in hot water, and now summer water. So, Boydie, is this the best of the water shows? No, I don't go that far. I mean, I know you just asked that for... For comedic effect. For comedic effect, yes. But I'm now thinking about... Seriously, wait a minute. Is it better? Is it better? No, I don't think so. Anyway, what have even more in common than Coldwater? Because remember in Coldwater, Angelica's character went running all the time. Yes, there's a lot of running in this. In the first episode of this, which focuses on Justine, played by Valene Cain, and her husband, Steve Tindall, played by Daniel Rigby, she goes running everywhere all the time, just like...

1:19:15It's a great stress relief, Boyd. Apparently so. And harder than walking, remember. Well, we know that's not true. Marathon walking is harder than marathon running. We all know that. Don't even start. Right, anyway. James, just very quickly. Boyd's got a theory. so I did I'm going to sound like a better I did a couple of marathons right and each time I did one Boyd would say yeah but the thing is I've done the moonwalk and that walking is harder so you've done the moonwalk 26 miles like Michael Jackson you moonwalked around a marathon with a white glove on no just backwards no no no it's called the moonwalk because it happens at night under the moon okay and what's the distance 26 miles same as a marathon right yeah and you believe it's harder than running yeah I did three of them okay with various celebrities a deranged claim okay yeah I didn't do it with any celebrities, but I ran all the way.

1:20:00I will say that, like, some walks can be harder than runs. When you do, like, so Amar, who used to work here, he did, like, it was a walk from London to Brighton type thing, which is, I believe, a lot longer than a marathon. That's a long way. So that would be harder. That, 100 % harder. If you're doing the same distance, but you're just doing it low effort, low cardio, I'm not sure how that's harder. No, we went quite fast. We went quite fast. That's the point. That's a definitive answer. I walked with Gabby Logan. Gabby Logan, who is an athlete. Listen, you can name drop as much as you want.

1:20:31James is answering the question. Did Gabby Logan say to you, well, of course, boy, this is much harder than America. Pretty much. We all agreed. Did you? We all agreed. Did you? Charlie Condu, the actor, who's in the new Russell 2, Davis show. I saw Charlie the other day and we actually talked about this. Oh, gosh. How brilliantly we were doing it. Okay, fine, whatever. Did you need a foil wrap after this? No, you did not. Well, I think we were given one anyway. I think they were given wraps along the way, but not foil ones. Steady. Anyway. popped into a patisserie. Some water. For God's sake, I can't believe you're just diverting your attention away from the show we're reviewing.

1:21:02There's a lot of fucking running. Anyway. There is. And so this, the structure of this show seems to be, it's a six-parter. It's basically lots of different people on their holidays in this beautiful part of Scotland. And they all gather in this kind of, with these arrays of like huts, I guess they are. Little cabins. Cabins, huts, whatever. Cabins, thank you. And the structure of this series is that you know something bad has happened or going to happen to some or all of these people. It's going to affect them all in some way, shape or form. But it follows a specific family each episode. Each episode takes the point of view, focuses on the point of view of a character or their family.

1:21:44And in this opening one, it is Justine, the running woman we're talking about, who focuses on her. and we get to see glimpses of her past, flashbacks to her doing dodgy stuff, keying the car of a... Work nemesis. Work nemesis. Nemesis, crucially, not the ride at Thought Park. Exactly. No Thought Park reference as far as I'm aware in this series. And having various kind of issues with her family, with... I'm trying not to spoil it so I won't go on about it, but lots of kind of mysterious things she's got up to. Also, the logline, I don't know if we said this, the logline is, five cabins, 24 hours, one fire.

1:22:23Can I ask a question? Go on. I had no earthly idea what was going on in this show. Like, am I the only one? I'm getting to that. Okay. Because the show that I was going to compare it to was The Gathering. I don't know if we reviewed The Gathering. Brings a bell. The Gathering was a Channel 4, another Channel 4 drama, all about a bad thing that happened to a teenager on the beach. That was the swim meet one, wasn't it? Yes, the swim meet. the gymnast. She was the gymnast. Oh, it wasn't swimming. It was gymnastic. Yes, you're right. It was the gymnast. Same, same. Yeah. And that had a similar kind of thing whereby there was a bad thing happened.

1:22:57In this case, it happened to a teenager on a beach party, the gathering of the title. And the episodes showed from the point of view mostly of the different characters and suspects, if you like, in this bad thing that happened. But what I thought, for me, the structure of the gathering worked slightly better than this structure, which in The Gathering, each episode was mostly from the point of view of a specific character, but it kept you up to date with all the other characters at the same time, quite cleverly. So it wove in, you got to know all the characters for whom this incident had affected, but while foregrounding one of them.

1:23:34So it was quite a good, clever balance, I thought. In this, it's an interesting creative decision. You see glimpses of the other characters in their different cabins where there was this fire, as you say. But you don't get to know anything about them at all until their episode arrives. So the whole of the first episode is about this one woman and her issues. And it is confusing as to what the hell is going on in her life. Deliberately so. Not just the narrative structure, though, isn't it? The way it's stylistically done. There's a lot of... The discordant music. Ominous discordant string music.

1:24:05Weird sort of ululating voices. And you're like, what the fuck is that? Like flash, weird chronological flashes where you're in the hut. You're not in the hut. She's at home. It's before the hut. Is that person real? Is it imagined? And they don't signpost the shift. She doesn't have a different haircut or anything like that. So we don't know whether this is happening now or this has happened before. So it's deliberately discombobulating. Then she's in the forest and she's doing something there and then there's like a weird almost kaleidoscopic camera thing to show that her sort of fractured mental state.

1:24:32And I was like, never mind hers. My mental state is completely fractured. What's going on? But I really... And that's people watching the show. I really struggle to follow it. And it seems to be the case There's a lot of people with fractured mental states, by the way, because we do see a glimpse of Shirley Henderson's character with Dugray Scott, and she's got fractured mental states from the mere few seconds we see of her. And brackets what I know of the rest of the series because I've read the press information. So, yeah, it is a bit bewildering, and not that much happens, is the other thing I was going to say.

1:25:03So there's a lot of kind of watching her doing weird stuff, and sometimes just on her own, just standing there, It escalates, though, doesn't it? It does escalate. It does escalate. It takes a fair while. And for me, I don't generally like reviews where you tell the creative people behind the show, oh, you should have done it this way. But for me, I might have preferred having more ongoing interaction with the other characters as well as your main character focusing on the episode rather than this, which it was a weird 50 minutes of TV where not a huge amount happened. And you're kind of implying and you're suggesting that there's something going on with the mental health of this character but it is a bit vague and weird I thought it was just about compelling enough for me to want to carry on oh wow okay yeah I think it's interesting I've drunk the summer water I should say because I host the Q &A so I've watched three or four episodes so I'm biased right I take your point I think it is you know it would have been maybe good to draw the characters more of the other characters in each episode that I say but I don't think like I think quite a bit happens in the first episode in each of the episodes because they focus on all the different cabins.

1:26:09Basically, as we've said, there was this fire. There's one cabin that's really noisy. Everyone's getting really frustrated. The party cabin. The party cabin, party gate, as I'm calling it. And this is all about who is the body taken out of the burning embers? How are these people involved? Each cabin has got a group of people who are like, it's like summer water has drawn together all these tortured souls, right? and it's like it's a really claustrophobic feeling place like it's really discombobulating as you've said and disconcerting it's like a weird energy of this place and how each of them are going through their own personal turmoil which is exacerbated by being in this and when i was doing the q a actually um that we were talking about the fact that actually it's reflective of we all go on these holidays right these family holidays you're trying to get away from it all you think when you change the location everything's gonna be fine but actually sometimes that can then be a pressure cooker situation it's a holiday from hell yeah it's like if we went on holiday this is exactly what's happening right exactly so um yeah i mean like i said i'm obviously in the pocket but i i really enjoyed it but usually that kind of thing would irritate me the uh not irritate me but like you know when it's discombobulated i'm not sure what's happening i might be a bit like oh god i just want it to be a bit clearer but actually weirdly i got i just went along with it and the And the more it goes on, you start piecing it together, and you're like, oh, okay.

1:27:30And yeah, so I found it intriguing rather than, yeah. It is intriguing. It is intriguing. I was absolutely baffled for a lot of it. But pieces sort of fall together, certainly towards the end, where you're like, oh, okay, I kind of understand now. So if I re-watch the episode now, I think it would be much clearer to me, because I understand now where her head is at. But also, even for me, so I obviously watched it in advance to do this Q &A. It's like there's this moment with DeGray Scott's character, right, and his flashbacks to his younger self. By the way, the younger version of him is played by his son, which I think is a brilliant fact.

1:28:02Because I was watching it, I was like, God, that guy really resembles DeGray Scott. And I was like, oh, no, they're genetically linked. But, you know, skip forward three episodes, or the second episode, you've seen these flashbacks. And suddenly, only after I watched the third episode, I was like, oh, that connects to the first episode. So it's one of those things that I think slowly reveals itself. are they essentially telling the same story in each episode like Rushamon as it's always referred to yeah exactly it's the same 24 hours from a different perspective and it's all connected so it should have been called Cabins in the Woods yeah or Cabin Fever yeah because it's been also compared to The White Lotus I mean if I checked into The White Lotus and looked like that I'd want a fucking refund oh well it's beautiful I don't know whether Dugres got to say this in your Q &A but he talks about yeah let's compare it to The White Lotus obviously like White Lotus is one of the biggest hits on TV.

1:28:52Anyone would welcome the comparison. Because it is people gathering in the same vacation location. Much more different. It's lacking the luxury, I have to say, of the White Lotus. But because I guess it's kind of half the happening, that I was referring to, the gathering, sorry, not the happening, the gathering, half White Lotus in the sense that there's lots of different characters, groups of characters in the same vacation area. But the difference with this one is it's retelling the same story. Yes, exactly. So that's different. I think also what's interesting is that I believe the book was written on the back of Brexit and that's very clear throughout, right?

1:29:26So some of the people's opinions about this noisy family who are I think one of the women's Polish and the husband's Latvian or something like that and it's very much for certain characters it's an issue. Talking of the parenting thing that you alluded to, James I'm going to use the word to allude to so much more often now that people wrote in and complained about it. I know and I'm the one who deals with the postbag. Yeah, sorry. is that the bad parenting, oh my God, I mean, this one, she just lets the two kids wander off and just go to sleep. They're just out in the dark. Falls to sleep. She's like, come back.

1:29:59And meanwhile, the other character, we haven't even met properly yet, her kids run off somewhere, she doesn't know where she is. I know. There's missing kids all over the fucking place. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's bad times. Yeah, we have a bad parenting triple bill this week. It really is. It's quite extraordinary. It really is, yeah, because in the first episode of the Jack Whitehall show, Malice, all I'm going to say is the scene on the rock with the kids. Yeah. Oh my gosh. That was hard. That's some of the worst parenting I've ever seen. It's pretty bad. Okay, right, Summer Water. It's on Channel 4.

1:30:27Channel 4. It started yesterday, Sunday, and carries on tonight, Monday, and I think it's all going to be on the channel4.co.uk, or whatever it is, their website. .com? .com, yeah. All four as I like to call it. All four, yeah, indeed. Four OD, right. How many episodes is it? Six, I think? Yes. Yeah, crucially more than four. Right, finally we have The Death of Bunny Monroe on Sky and this is a six-part adaptation of Nick Cave's 2009 novel and this stars Matt Smith as this sort of philandering misogynist whose long-suffering wife takes her own life at which point he essentially runs off on a road trip with his young son Bunny Jr.

1:31:05And for that name alone, terrible parenting. Oh, there's also a serial killer dressed up as Satan because of course there is. Who among us wants to put this bunny back in the box? Kay. Okay. It's your turn. because we start with you then we just mean let's always be fair right okay so as James said I mean this is I didn't realise it was written by Nick when I found that out last night I was like delighted and it's sort of oh you're a huge Nick Cave fan yeah she is a bad seed bad seed oh James first from Alison now bad seed I really enjoyed it I mean it's a I think it's a tough watch I mean like we said there is a theme this week of bad parenting trauma etc and this really is distilled in this show where Matt Smith is, as you say, this negligent dad who's a sex addict and, I mean, we can say this because it happens right at the beginning but basically he's very neglectful of his wife played by the excellent Sarah Green from Bad Sisters and she's depressed and he's off-landering and she ends up taking her life.

1:32:11I'm saying that because it happens within the first five minutes and you kind of just see how it affects him or doesn't affect him. I mean, he processes it in his own way, but it all sort of comes to a head at the funeral where his behaviour towards his father-in-law is despicable. The whole thing is so awful to watch because when you're watching the whole thing, for me, I was just like, but what about the kid, Bunny Jr., who is so adorable and he wears all of his wife's on his face right not least because he's got red and dyes because something's going on an allergy that hasn't been treated that his mum would look after but his dad you know obviously he's just here there everywhere um just wanting to get his leg over and um yeah you just that's the thing it's so troubling about this it's one thing that bunny monroe uh senior has this sex addiction he just like he's this charismatic salesperson who is just doing whatever he wants basically but at the bottom of this there's this young vulnerable young boy whose mother's just died his his dad is more interested in um you know how can i say it getting intimate having a jostle yeah i mean i think we know where we are with the show when in the middle of the funeral he leaves the funeral to go and have a jostle yes i mean that was an extraordinary scene there are a lot of extraordinary scenes in this and i just think matt smith is on excellent form i mean do you know what this reminded me of a little bit not i don't know why but patrick melrose you know that kind of character like yeah um oh that's absolutely you know the addiction and etc although obviously this character is less privileged than patrick melrose was um and like we get to learn more about him you know the fact that senior uh bunny monroe senior idolized his dad and um taught him how to be a man and that says everything because this guy's got issues and the fact that he's left looking after this kid is a concerning proposition.

1:34:06So it's stressful, but I enjoyed it. But I think... Makes you wish you had the psychotic manny, doesn't it? I know, that's the thing. I don't know... I mean, I feel bad saying this because it's really good. Everyone should watch it. I just don't know personally how much more I can watch because I found it really stressful. Do you know, you're honestly right. But it's also... Because it's set in 2003, so it's Brighton 2003, which is roughly the time when the pier burned down. It's absolutely when the pier burned down. Well, it's literally because it burns down in the first episode. Yeah, right.

1:34:30So it's literally at exactly the time the pier burns down in 2003 James what made you think that? I don't know I just got a vibe was it the plumes of smoke? could have been that could have been the fire on the horizon the raging inferno I don't know like it was just a vibe but so but it feels almost like it has a slightly almost like period-y grubbiness to it and the way it's shot it feels yeah it feels decades earlier and period grubbiness he's grubby there is a real grubbiness to it where you just feel like you want to shower afterwards and he's horrible to be around and that is as you know for me that is a challenge with television so you've got you've got terrible parenting you feel awful for this boy he's horrible to be around like it's like a hundred percent like if someone had said who do you think wrote this I might have said Nick Cave like because it feels like it has a very Nick Cave vibe to it and I think if you can dial into that it's actually really good and it's really well put together but it was a bit of an endurance test for me actually we should give a shout out to Raphael Mathe who plays young Bunny Munro because he is Bunny Junior yeah Yes, he's absolutely brilliant.

1:35:30His facial expressions are a sight to behold. They're phenomenal. You just want to scoop him up. He's so sweet. And protect him. Yeah, he's brilliant. I often do now, I've sat there watching, oh my God, what's James going to think of this one? Because it's, even by the sense of the previous two shows in there, parenting and choosing, it's the hardest to watch of the three. He goes to town, yeah. Because there's something quite cruel about the way he says stuff in front of his son. And doesn't give a shit. Doesn't give a shit. Like he tries to palm him off to his mother-in-law. Oh no, I was only joking.

1:36:01It's like, well, your boy was standing right there. Casual cruelty. Casual cruelty, yeah. And at first I slightly worried that this was one of those shows. I haven't read the book. And do you know what? Funny enough, I'm not even that massive of a Nick Cave fan. I should be. That surprises me. Yeah, as an aging old guy. You know, dad rock kind of guy. I think it was our colleague Kev McCreeth who used to like him. Oh yeah, Kevin. I mean, everyone I know loves Nick Cave. And in fact, Nick Cave is one of the, because he lives in Brighton, famously, he lives in Brighton. And I used to live in Brighton when I went to college in Brighton.

1:36:30And he's like a great, if you live in Brighton, basically the two people, the celebrities famous for living there are Steve Coogan and Nick Cave. And we wander around, you're bunch of bump into one or both at any given time. But I never really particularly got into Nick Cave as such. So I haven't read the book. But I do think this is a really interesting show. It's not like anything else on TV. and I which I immediately give it kudos for and I think I half expected it to be particularly as you say with the weird style style kind of 50s, 60s his car and the kind of he's doing this house to house selling of beauty products which feels like something from the 50s he's basically like the Avon man yeah he's Avon man exactly and so it's very weird and then you've got this serial killer element which feels I was worried that it was like oh he's not trusting enough for us to be interested in this parenting storyline, which is the crux of the whole thing.

1:37:26To me, the relation, how is this useless, sex-obsessed dad, who can't stop wanking, by the way, how is he going to look after this poor kid after the death of the mother? And that's enough for me of a story. And then there's these allusions to, I think they are allusions, to there's a serial killer on the loose who's about to arrive on the scene. And do we really need that? But I have to say, I think the way it's shot beautifully shot and directed and acted won me over in the end and I thought and he is this is a brilliant role for Matt Smith I mean Matt Smith remember did he did American Psycho on stage he played Patrick Bateman he's very very good at playing these kind of extreme men sometimes he did it in a film as well he's taken on a few roles kind of similarly Bellendi men who are who are complete kind of monsters in a way I think he is a bit of a monster in this show and I think it's all about will it's almost like a buddy comedy in a way will he be able he obviously in the end I think he will be able to resolve his issues with his and he will learn to become I'm interested I'm interested in the redemption arc I think there will be a redemption arc it just feels that way and I'm and I want to carry on watching it to find out how that's going to play out and I think I just think the I think the dialogue's clever and funny and smart I think I actually believed in the Sarah Green's what you see of her there's some really sweet scenes between flashbacks really yeah moving moments between her and the kids particularly.

1:38:53I think it's very affecting and potentially really good. James, one final question before we wrap up on this. Gun to the head, and literal gun, my gun to the head, what would you rather watch? The Death of Bunny Monroe or Breeders? Oh. Breeders. Interesting. Wow. Okay. Well, because it puts the parenting of Breeders into perspective. Yeah. It's different because Breeders I think, and weirdly, we actually got to this point where Boyd and I reached an accord on this. As it goes on, that show is very, very aware that they're terrible people. And while people do, it is a problem and he gets help for it and whatnot.

1:39:35And I think as that show goes on, it's easier for me to watch. I think certainly very early on, I struggled a lot with breeders. But this kind of compounds it because it's casual cruelty, bad parenting, and it has an overall grubby vibe to it as well. So there are layers to it, which I maybe find harder. Okay, thanks for answering the question. You're welcome. But yes, old Matt Smith's developed quite the range of bellends on his CV since he did Doctor Who. Prince Daemon Targaryen. Yes, I forgot about that. We've come a long way from the TARDIS. He's in Morbius as well, a similar sort of thing.

1:40:09Yes, exactly. By the way, kudos to him. I meant to say this. This is a full-on... He's naked half the time, pretty much, when he's not jostling as well. He's having sex with various other women and carefully filmed. Shall we say, the intimacy coordinator was kept busy by the show. That's all I'm going to say. But he absolutely does whatever the hell he needs to do. He's a full-on... He gets into it, as he always does. But this is a spectacular role for him. The death of Bunny Monroe, though, which is on Sky Atlantic. And now? And now. From Thursday, the 20th of November, 2025. Super. What else is out this week that we have missed, Boydie?

1:40:52Well, there's a series of Daddy Issues. Do you remember when you watched that? That was the show with David Morrissey and Amy LeWood. And A Man on the Inside is back on Netflix on Thursday. Daddy Issues is Friday. Yeah, Daddy Issues is Friday. Mighty Nein, that critical role animated show is on Prime. I don't even know what that is. That's on Wednesday. Cooper and Fry on 5 on Tuesday. what is that I've watched that now this is your man from Downton Abbey Rob James Collier is that yeah and he plays a detective who is mixed mismatched detectives so Mandip Gill and Rob and yeah it's set in the Peak District yeah it's a it's enjoyable yeah yeah yeah it's enjoyable because it's like it's all about their dynamic and them solving crimes in very different ways adapted for the novels by Stephen Booth If it had been a week where we needed to do another show, there weren't so many decent shows to talk about.

1:41:48We might end up doing Cooper and Fry. I bet it would do well for Channel 5. Good names. It's my bold prediction. Then on Sunday, there's a drama called Prisoner 951, which is a true-life drama based on the terrifying story of Nazanin Zaghari-Rackliffe and her husband, Richard, played by Joseph Fiennes, and Narjez Rashidi plays her. And she was the woman who was imprisoned in Iran under spying charges and they ended up going on hunger strike etc it was a terrifying true story and this is a six part drama showing Sunday and Monday nights dealing with that whole situation which was embargo which is why we couldn't review it so what is our pick of the week?

1:42:28I'm torn between Bunny Monroe and Malice right okay so it's a really tough week because I think they're all good and I'd recommend everyone watch them but I'm going to go for Malice because of I thought it was really great to see Jack in a different way Yeah, I think Malice I enjoyed the most, I have to say. That's most entertaining. Yeah, in this special Bad Parenting week, I'm going to go for that version of Bad Parenting over the other two. Can I abstain? No, you can't. You can't. I will not be watching any of them. Which one did you enjoy the most then? Which did I enjoy the most? So while watching probably Malice, but once I'd finished it, possibly Summer Water, because I felt when I got to the end, I understood what was happening where I've been utterly baffled for the preceding like 50 minutes.

1:43:15Okay, pithy answer. Yeah, that's my... That's how we do it. That's how we do an in-depth analysis of each show. It doesn't matter because you both voted for Malice, so Malice is the pick. You did the maths, right. I don't need to do any of my democratic rambling. It's a democracy, yeah. Yeah, exactly. Sometimes. Sometimes, when it suits me. That's it for this show. Please do leave us a five-star rating. We really very much appreciate it. Whether or not you are the editor of Slow Horses, feel free to leave one either way. Oh yeah, please review us, Robert Frost. Yeah, absolutely. In poetry, if you can.

1:43:44On next week's show, God, what are we going to be doing next week? Let's have a look. The Beatles Anthology series is on Disney+. Netflix obviously will be holding a certain little show called Stranger Things. I don't know if you've heard of that one. But that will be embargoed, I can guarantee you that. What else is happening? Bay of Fires is on ITV. We'll see. ITVX. ITVX, sorry, sorry, I forgot the X. And I don't know what we're doing on Pilot Plus either, but I'm sure we will come up with something. Stuff. Yeah, stuff. Things and stuff. Okay, fine, that is it then for this week's show. We're off to book the Pilot TV holiday to summer water.

1:44:18Woo-hoo! Pilot out.