PLUS Brothers

30:10But obviously he's not killed outside the ship, because there's a whole Star Trek series. Like, he doesn't die. We know he doesn't die. So to a certain extent, there is no threat there. There is no jeopardy. There is no drama. But that'll make it any less exciting, because you know they're not going to kill off one of the main characters, regardless of whether it's a prequel. so i think to a certain extent we all have to kind of suspend that disbelief and just go with you know the emotional currents of whatever it is that you're watching you have to kind of buy into the emotional jeopardy even though you know full well that it's not going to go in a negative direction yeah but it's all about the extent to which the skill with which the extent to which they they can get us to suspend yeah if they if they fumble the emotional beats i would say that weirdly is more likely to sap the drama than you know having a be in a multiverse yeah i've had a long-standing just like i don't get why specifically i know you your reaction to the avengers film that ended with them all dissipating you know half the planet being uh i was people people go on about how stunningly moving that was and how i'm like that's me i was like that every every fucking knows there's another film coming up in six months time and we'll come back whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa at the time no i've got to disagree when i first saw that i was exactly i was like this is stunning this is absolutely i was so emotionally invested and when people were started disappearing into like ash i was like oh my god no that was fantastic you can't you can't you cannot end a movie experience like that a cinema experience like i saw that and i think i saw that i saw that somewhere in the west end and it was like on a massive screen and i was like oh oh my God, they've got a big TV.

31:54But I was so emotionally invested in that. And I left the cinema going, oh my God, that was fucking brilliant. So I wasn't thinking, yeah, it was good, but in six months' time, we'll find out that they will come back. You cannot, you've got to invest. Otherwise, what's the point? I believe at the time, they'd already shot the next Spider-Man. Yeah, exactly. But none of that bothered me in the slightest. And I don't think any of that took away from the impact of that ending. because it's such an unconventional way to end a major blockbuster by killing almost all of your heroes and leaving the bad guy triumphant.

32:27Empire Strikes Back does it to an extent, but even that isn't close to what Infinity War did. And I don't think, none of us really believed that they were going to kill everyone. Like, we didn't. But you go with it, and I think you're so swept up in the emotions of the moment. That is devastating. Absolutely devastating. There was a part of me, I think, did believe they were going to, like, some of them weren't going to come back. I really did. I was that invested. Well, that's just insane. Anyway, we... It's turned into a film podcast, yes. The Empire podcast, yeah. Okay, right. I wonder if we do...

32:57Do you know what? Before we dabble in all things Reacher, let's talk about the war. So this comes from Gary, and Gary says, I'm a subscriber of Pilot Plus, and I came to last year's live show, so was there for the inception of the butterfly joke from RTD. I'm a long-time listener of the pod. This is my first time writing in. Band of Brothers turned 25 this week. Aside from being my favourite TV show, it is rated in the top five best rated TV shows of all time on IMDb. At the time of filming, it was the most expensive TV show ever produced, costing around$130 million. It aired two days before 9-11, so it didn't make as big an impact straight away as it should have, but it became a massive hit over time.

33:35It is incredibly well produced by legends Tom Hanks and Steven Spielberg. It has early performances from Damien Lewis, Tom Hardy, James McAvoy, Michael Fassbender, Andrew Scott and Simon Pegg, just to name a few. Despite its impressive credentials, it doesn't seem to get any love from the pilot team. James has mentioned it a few times, but in passing, it is an intense watch as it follows easy company through some of the main events of World War II from D-Day to the end of the war. Hard to believe it's a true story. It's a brilliant study of the bond between soldiers. As someone who has served, I can testify to its portrayal of camaraderie in the harshest of environments and situations.

34:11I have a feeling that James and Boyd have seen it. But if I can get Steph to watch it, if she hasn't already, then I would consider it a win. Would love to hear your thoughts on it. Thanks for all you do to entertain us weekly. Gary. Gary. Firstly, I fucking love Band of Brothers, okay? Saving Private Ryan is one of my absolute favourite films, right? And I have not only watched Band of Brothers once, I've watched it twice. It is very big in my house. I agree with everything you said. I love Damon Lewis in it. I couldn't love Band of Brothers more I know what you mean and it's really interesting because I you know saying about when it came out two days before 9-11 I don't think I recall that that's when it came because I didn't watch it when it was first out I think I watched started watching it about a year after it went out because Liam was watching it but I absolutely agree with you it doesn't get enough love I think it's probably it doesn't generally appear in a lot when people are talking about the best TV of all time, but it certainly is.

35:10I think it has what I love, which is kind of a contemporary kind of like Christopher Nolan, Dunkirk. It feels like that level of authenticity, which is absolutely outstanding. And also, as an aside, you know that my favorite thing to do is watch military people, servicemen be reunited with their dogs. So on that level, yeah, I'm all in. I'm all in. No, I absolutely love it. So job done. I couldn't, yeah we should talk about it more maybe we'll do a re-watch and talk about how brilliant it is we probably should have on it for its anniversary so gary i'm with you thank you for your service i hope that at some point you were reunited with a dog and you took a video of it and if you did please can you send it to me did you two as gary suspects what's the brothers or indeed like me watch it twice so much more to the point it had a premiere i believe on a beach but definitely in normandy and i there was a point where i was going to drive from my house to normandy for the premiere of band of brothers oh my god why didn't you go you are so extra yeah but the point was like because it was back in the early days when i just started empire and they were like oh yeah we should be able if we go there we'll be able to get interviews with tom hanks and steven spielberg and i was like great because i wasn't i wasn't not to watch it i was going to go and like do the red carpet lineup so i used to cover premieres at empire that was my thing when i started oh my god i totally forgot all of them but i was going to drive to normandy to cover the premiere of band of brothers but they wouldn't give me accreditation so i didn't do it um but yeah that i very nearly did that but yeah band of brothers was an incredible watch and i watched it week by week and you know that intercutting of the easy company action with the testimony of the ex-service of the people who served in world war ii and i think world war ii narratives there's something like world war ii narratives weirdly occupy a similar space in my brain to science fiction sometimes because it doesn't seem real there's something about world war ii in particular more than any other you know historical conflicts that just seems fantastical it seems so it seems like an alternate timeline just to bring the multiverse back into this podcast again it doesn't seem and i'm almost i have this weird fascination with this alternate reality that is this war and And watching that show, there's something quite visceral and just like, it is so powerful.

37:21It's an incredibly powerful watchers going through that and watching them, because obviously they're paratroopers, aren't they? Like they're behind enemy lines during all of this. And as I recall, it's been a long time since seeing it, like the rhythm of that show, like the tone of those episodes, it varies quite a lot depending on what's happening week by week. It's not like they're in a battle every week. Sometimes they're just walking through hedgerows, you know, it's like a, yeah, it's an incredible show. I should go back to it. I never had the same reaction to The Pacific, though. I don't know if you guys did.

37:49Oh, I didn't watch that. I didn't watch that. No. So I don't know. Maybe I should. I think the thing about Band of Brothers is, aside from having, as Gary points out, these absolutely outstanding actors very early on in their career, it really, because the authenticity is so great because we know it's a true story. And I think, even now, if you watch, I think if you watch, it hasn't, this sounds like a strange thing to say, but it hasn't aged in terms of like, if you watch it now, I think I caught one the other day and I think it still looks absolutely pristine and it could be released now and you'd be like, oh, this is a new show.

38:27It's absolutely fantastic. You're making me want to start a rewatch. You genuinely are. Honestly, James, we should. It's so fantastic. We really should. But yeah, it is about, as it says, Band of Brothers, it is about their relationships and that's what makes it so special to watch. Like you say, not every episode is something major happening. It's just a walk through the existence within this insane time. And I think we always, World War II is actually incredibly recent history. And I think that's what is hard to kind of qualify in your mind that, wow, this really did only happen. My granddad was in the Navy and my nana was moved out to the countryside.

39:11I always want to say that excavated. Evacuated. What is the word? Evacuated. She was not excavated. My nana was evacuated. I grew up with those kinds of stories. It is crazy. I know what you mean about it seeming like a multiverse because you almost can't believe that the horror exists in that time and obviously we're still living in a time of war and it's horrendous but yeah I think it's an interesting point yeah go on there was also Masters of the Air wasn't there a couple of years ago yeah which feels like it feels like a piece with those but again nowhere near as powerful nowhere near as powerful but I think it is I'm looking at the question of why we don't mention it that much I mean I think it is often listed in when they do polls of the best shows of all time do you think I feel like it isn't no you think it is okay in fairness it was like 25 years ago.

39:58So I think that's probably a part of it. So it was The Sopranos and Sopranos. That is true. But, and it's funny, like, because you're right in, given the time period it came out and given how good it was, it doesn't get uttered in the same breaths as The Sopranos, The Wire, and those kind of peak TV vanguard shows. Always. But I think it does, there are definitely, I've seen polls where, I think it's more, I think it's more of an American phenomenon. I'm not sure it really, I'm trying to remember what channel it was on here. Was it on channel four here? I think it was. I want to say Sky. I want to say Sky.

40:28Yeah, maybe it was Sky. Yeah, that makes sense. But, yeah, for some reason, I think in American discussions of the greatest TV of all time, it is mentioned, but not that much necessarily for – but, I mean, the cast, every single person and every, like, youngish British actor almost is in it. And, yeah, it was a brilliant piece of work. It was fantastic. But, I mean, I think I'm probably myself guilty of not remembering it when I do, not that we're doing the list of best shows every other day, but when, you know, when asked to talk about the best TV ever, yeah, it must be. We should do a best TV episode.

41:05That's a can of worms. I mean, we can attempt it. I'm sure people would be furious with us no matter what we did, but we'll put it on the back burner for now, I think. Right. Okay. I feel like we have to deal with this. Number one, the expanse. I mean, obviously. Number two, foundation. Nobody's already got the results. We don't need to do it. There we go. Yeah, that's correct. Right. the Reacher situation. I'm going to suggest, because we've had so many of them, we address this now, finally, and then we don't discuss it again, brackets, until the Reacher spoiler special that I'm doing on the Empire Podcast.

41:35Can I just say one thing before you dive into Reacher for anyone who has not started watching what James would call Neely and everybody else would call Neely, which is the Reacher spin-off. Please watch. It's so good, okay? I've continued watching it and it's absolutely fantastic. Now, James, please continue. But before we do the Reacher thing, I've forgotten this. Before we do the Reacher thing, I feel obliged to read out a complaint of someone who doesn't normally write in, but felt compelled to write in and yell at us. So I feel like I have to do this. Is it something I've done? It actually isn't.

42:12It feels like it is. But this comes from, forgive me if I have mispronounced your name. It's a Polish name. I believe it is. It's L-U-K-A-S-Z. I'm going to say Lukash. It's either Lukash or Lukach. I'm going to say Lukash. But anyway, Lukash says, Hey, pod legends. Good start. Long time listener. First time writer. Love the podcast for a very long time. Banter, silly one-upmanship and friendly backstabbing are absolute gold. Steph is a brilliant addition to the team. Her passion is contagious. I'm a long time plus subscriber and will be until you stop recording. I didn't complain about Boyd's political rants.

42:49I listen to Pilot to escape that shitty reality. but I guess other people felt the same and voiced their opinion. I didn't complain about constant spoilers. I just listened to your reviews after watching the mentioned episodes, shows that I'm sure I want to see, because I'm truly interested in your opinions and your takes. That's aimed at you, boy. Absolutely. Unfortunately, your Slow Horses review takes the cake, and not in a good Pat Val way. I've waited to listen to the pod until after watching the first episode, which is the only one available at the time of him writing in. just to be safe because you watched the whole series months ago and did not re-watch the first step before recording you don't seem to remember what happens in which episode and you started spoiling plot points and characters from later episodes or the last 10 minutes of the first how many non-tv journalist people read apple's press release about returning characters maybe in the third episode even though you didn't remember which episode why would you mention plot points from later episodes.

43:48After spoiling a lot in the first four minutes of your review, I had to stop listening. And I won't be back until I finish the series. I'm sorry. But just from that very first minute, I heard the review felt lazy and inconsiderate. You love slow horses, just like almost everyone else, so why would you spoil the fun for the rest of us? In the immortal words of Scepter Unela, shame! Shame! I know it's a long rant, probably too long for the postbag. Turns out not. Plus, I'm not dropping my subscription so no need to cater to me but please do take it under consideration p.s love the yellowstone roch come on dutton branch there we go yes um oh my god we're on a time out we're on the naughty step what have you got to say for yourself shut up well in boyd's defense he did say at the beginning when i said when you said about olivia coleman and i was like definitely not olivia coleman but carry on That would be a spoiler.

44:43What did you say? We mentioned Olivia Cooke. So Olivia Cooke's character. Olivia Cooke, sorry. I actually agree with this because I think releasing that information before airing the show was fucking deranged. And I get that they're trying to capitalise on her profile post-game, you know, with House of the Dragon having recently aired and stuff. But it is a massive spoiler and it is a massive turn. And yes, it was in the books, but people haven't necessarily read them. And actually, when I watched it, it floored me. But, and I will say this, she's in the trailer. She's in the pictures. She's in the trailer.

45:10it's been so heavily publicized yeah and by the way i watched i was watching live tv last night funnily enough and there was a trailer for yeah she's in that and she's in that trailer extensively so i'm sorry it's not case it's not a case of the press release that is bad you know i agree with lukash though that that it is that that is a spoiler and it shouldn't be out there but i think we as reviewers what we try to use as a guideline when we do stuff maybe it's wrong but this is what we try to do is if the studio if the network if the if the people putting the show together if they have put information out there then that generally speaking is something that we use at the foundation of what we talk about from a plot synopsis point of view like and if they haven't put information out then and oftentimes they give us a list of things we shouldn't mention then we don't talk about it and while i agree that i think it is better to watch it not knowing that i guess we kind of assumed that everyone interested in slow horses would know that your point that not everyone watches the trailers and stuff like that to avoid this kind of thing is is fair and we had the same conversation on empire magazine because the person who wrote the print review also mentioned that character and a number of other things in there and there was a great big hoo-ha in the office about should we include it and in the end it stayed in for the reasons i've outlined i'm now 100 not sure or not 100 sure i should say that we made the right decision in either case because maybe we should actually have overridden apple's marketing department said you know what they shouldn't have put this out it was a stupid thing to do and maybe we shouldn't perpetuate this just for people who don't know i don't know i think you know you may be onto something but it's a gray area i i think also a part of the problem just in general reviewing things is okay sometimes you guys will get the whole of a series of something right because especially with apple you'll get the whole series blah blah right and then if it's something that you enjoy blah blah and you you watch it in its entirety and then when we come to review it you you know obviously you're giving kind of a real holistic view of the the series without trying but it's really hard to just remember what happened in the first episode the flip side of that is that sometimes what happens and we have we've been guilty of this is if you don't watch something it's like you don't watch the whole series you don't watch four or five where you're obviously going to find out things that you people who are just going to watch it especially specifically with Apple where it's week by week, right?

47:28Then you might get the wrong idea about, I'll give like, this isn't an Apple show, but Furious is an example of like, we all only watched one episode of that. Okay. So we gave our opinion on it and actually that opinion was wrong and everybody's now come back and we've reversed for it and we all really liked it. Okay. So it's really, it's like a really hard line. Yeah. Well, if you watch one and you're like, well, the first one was a bit, it was not very good. So we're not going to watch it. And then it's like, oh no, you should really commit to watching all of it but then you fall into the well then you watch all when you watch all of it and it's really hard to kind of extrapolate just like the first few things that happen without like engaging in the passion of what else oh you're going to watch this series because so many brilliant things happen so but i yeah it's really really tricky and so where what how much do you watch what do you watch and what do you reveal is also i don't think it's that tricky i don't think it's that tricky i'm sorry if if apple tv are going to put prominently in their trailer not i'm not so this isn't the case of people cranking up a trailer months in advance to see to see what it's like you know and and to discuss it with their mates and people deliberately avoiding trailers it's they put that trailer out on live television on nine o 'clock on a sunday evening so you literally you would have to have like known that a trailer was coming up to ignore the if you're a so horses fan to see this character shown in the trailer if something is shown in the trailer it's not our fault i'm sorry it's quite simple it's not our fault we have to be able to take our cue from the originators of the show the producers of the show the people who commission an era program and if they decide that something is is they want that information out there then we have to take our cue from them we can you know people can complain to us about it that's fine and i of course i'm famous for spoiling things but that's an aside but this particular issue about this particular character coming back in slow horses i'm sorry we are not it's not apple i on the one hand i agree with boyd that technically we are not at fault because this was apple's choice But in retrospect, I regret leaving that in because I think my enjoyment of that show would have been lessened had I known that spoiler going in.

49:30And while that is Apple's fault, really, not our fault, I kind of wish we'd cut it out. Well, I only watched one episode. So when you revealed that to me and you spoiled my experiences, I actually kind of took the view of, and maybe this is just my inherent optimism. I was like, oh, now I'm really excited. Now I know that person's coming back. But yeah, I get the point that, you know, sometimes you just want to, you know, be in it and discover it all for yourself and you don't want, you know, people to tell you stuff. So, I don't know. So, it's hard. I'm sorry. You know, for Lukash, I'm sorry that Boyd and James have spoiled your viewing, but you know, like they did it to me as well.

50:08You're in the same boat. All right, let's do this Reacher thing. I don't even know what order in which to address these things. So, we're just going to do it ever slightly randomly. We'll start with Alan's. Hello, Alan. The pod seems to be going from strength to strength, other, of course, than the fact that James is so, so wrong about the latest series of Reacher, which is the best since the first season. Honestly, is blood coming out of my ears? It feels like blood might be coming out of my ears. And we have another one here from Guy. And Guy says, hello, Piloteers. Does James know and love the character of Reacher too much to be able to enjoy it?

50:40Could he ever enjoy it unless he was appointed showrunner? As I type, I've seen everything except the last episode of the current Reacher series. Having just done a rewatch, I think it might be the best one yet. I've never read the books, but the grin has not left my face and I have often roared with laughter. Encore, say aye. There we go. James, can I just give you a little bit of an anecdotal thing from yesterday? So I was out with some of my university friends yesterday and two of them are like, they don't watch loads of TV. And they both, I was like, what are you watching at the moment? And they were like, both of them are a couple.

51:12And they were like, oh, we don't really watch TV. but the only thing that they watch, right, is Reacher, and they are loving this series. And they said to me, they said to me it was the best yet, and I was like, you need to watch Neagly because you'll love Neagly, but they also said to me, this is the best it's ever been. This is so upsetting. However, I turn now to, you know, and I think it's fair to say, the best pilot listener, you know, the best of all the pilot listeners, and that is Greg. And Greg says, Hi Pod, I thoroughly enjoy how trashy Reacher is, and don't hold it to the same standards as most other TV shows.

51:44However, the final episode of season four was truly terrible. Lots of close-ups of Reacher delivering a not-so-zingy put-down, terrible music over heartfelt character closure, and a fight scene where Reacher basically becomes a Terminator. There was zero plot. I know Reacher isn't known for its plot, and it all felt very, very cheap. I will, however, still watch the next season. Greg. Are any of those things that Greg's just said spoilers? What, that it's terrible? No. Also, it's aired, so you're fine. Okay, fine. But no, it's, yeah. Look, I love the character of Reacher, but let's continue. This comes from Asif, and Asif says, Just getting in touch about Neegli.

52:27First, I have to say, James is absolutely wrong about Reacher. Thank you, Boyd, for fighting back on this point. This season was the best yet. Will people please stop saying that? And that ending was properly gnarly. I also wanted to commend Steph for championing the importance of Neagly's backstory, especially why she doesn't want to be touched. I thought that thread was beautifully handled and adds real weight to the story and the finale. And I hope we get a season two. Yeah, it's really good. Okay, we have one more. One more. This comes from Kenny. I just listened to Pilot Plus, the Neagly edition, and I was hoping to chip in.

52:59I've just watched the first episode of Neagly, and I agree with what you said about the format and quality of the show being similar to the Reach and Reacher series. though hopefully the quality didn't continue to deteriorate like Reacher. I am starting to like Kenny Moore already. Can I suggest a couple of things you may have overlooked, especially given your blind adoration of Mr. Richardson and your expressed opinion of some of the adapted books? In the first season of Reacher, Alan Richardson seemed ideal casting. Big, muscular, does a good job of seeming cleverer than everyone else when he has the dialogue.

53:29But as a six foot five, 250 pound guy myself though more fat than muscle in my old age i felt he went too crazy with the bodybuilding and it made him look freakish rather than how he is described in the books frozen chicken fists aside and when he doesn't have snappy dialogue to show his intellect i think he has a tendency to look constipated rather than intense is he a good enough actor and were good looks more important than acting talent when choosing him or is he a let down by the script and asked to do more than he is capable of i was entirely happy with him in season one and i think that stems from the choice of book to adapt.

54:02I felt like the earlier books were significantly superior and would have loved it if they'd made better choices in subsequent series. The Visitor, Tripwire, or The Enemy would have been my choices after Killing Floor, and one shot has been done on the big screen. I have trouble remembering the plots for many of them, mainly because they were less high concept, and that applied to Gone Tomorrow after the opening scene. And the fight scenes also seem overly complicated, given the effect a scything elbow or cigarette punch should have to end those situations quickly. The way Macquarie translated the fights in the first movie could surely have been emulated, like the prison fights in season one.

54:37I agree with that entirely. By contrast, though, I think giving Maria Sten her own series is an excellent idea, and I think she improved Reacher significantly when she appeared. She shows she is much more believable as an action star, in my opinion, right from the start. Also, I'm surprised you didn't comment on the cult leader from the sizzle reel. I had to check, but he is indeed the same actor who played charles manson in mindhunter and once upon a time in hollywood yes he is sorry for going on a bit but your problem with the recent series has been jarring with me whenever you mention it and not taking into account the lead actor who must have significant clout by now and the book choices as integral reasons for the drop in quality seems unfair keep up the good work kenny boyd brackets no relation yes no it's kenny boyd and kenny boyd's brother is james boyd oh my god wow i know so we love this whole subset of steph this follows a whole like under it's like a underground kind of cult listen they're my buds they're my buddies but of course it's interesting alan richard said really very recently that he they wanted to adapt um die trying which has a white supremacist story and they decided not to when donald trump was re-elected it's a shame because that's a really good book that's the second book yeah it's a brilliant book it's a Brilliant book.

55:52Yeah. So that's very interesting. And when it comes to which book to adapt and which... I mean, look, I don't... Not being one to obviously double down, but I'm going to say, I think the first season of Reacher was purely Child. And I would say the most recent season of Reacher is pure Andrew Child. And I'm just going to leave it there. I'm just going to leave that there. That's not fair. You can't just leave that there. That's not fair. That's not right. James, you're upsetting a lot of people. Weirdly, I feel qualified to say, that because I started reading the sentinel this weekend literally this weekend that's just passed I was reading the sentinel and that is the first lee child and andrew child reach I'd never read one when lee child stopped writing them I stopped reading them and I've only just it's the first time I've dipped my toe in that and let me just say it had big reach of season four energy oh god unbelievable wow so annoying okay um can I just ask have you carried on watching neagly or sorry have you carried on watching neely oh you should please do it's great i may i may i may i may continue i look i hate watch reacher even though it's terrible so there's every chance i will watch this as well it's not terrible you absolute monster okay it won't be a hate watch either and neely neely it won't trust me it really really won't okay it's on the list it's on this right that is it for this week's post pack if you would like to write in about something other than Jack Reacher, then please do so.

57:15Do you know what I find so funny? This is like, it's like the Lestat Lash, but it's just fun, your one, isn't it? That address, of course, is postbag at pilottvpod.com. We hope you've enjoyed this Pilot Plus. On next week's regular podcast, we will be reviewing the new series of Blue Lights on the BBC. We'll be doing Break Claws on Channel 4 and War. What is it good for? Possibly absolutely nothing. We will find out because it's on Sky and we'll be reviewing that on Monday's show. Plus, we will have our interview with Sian Brooke from Blue Lights when she came into the studio and you will get to meet her lovely dog, Ziggy Stardust.

57:51Exciting. Right. We'll see you on Monday. Pilot out.