PLUS Chief Of War

0:07Kay:Welcome to Pilot Plus, your extended guide to every show that matters. And this morning, we're heading to Hawaii, which is nice, though in the midst of a war between islands, which is less than ideal. Why? Because today's show is Apple's Chief of War, which is a historical drama about the war between and eventual unification of the kingdoms of Hawaii in the 18th century, starring the absolute unit himself, Mr. Jason Momoa. And who is going to tell us about this? Why? It is our very own Chief of Chief of War, Boyd Hilton. Thank you. Yes, this is, I think this is what's been described as a passion project for Jason Momoa, having sealed the Apple TV Plus deal with possibly the greatest TV show ever made called Sea.

0:52Kay:You may have heard of it. It's true. It's true. You can't deny it. He peaked very early. This will clearly not be as good as that. Yeah, I mean, that was, of course, a Stephen Knight creation. This is created by Jason Momoa himself and Thomas Parr-Sibbet. And together, they have created this historical drama, which, as you say, traces the four separate islands that make up Hawaii now, and Hawaii obviously being the state of America. This goes back to the late 19th century, when the various different islands were at war with each other, And there was like constant kind of turnover of violence and battles for power between the various groups.

1:33Kay:But the focus is on Jason Momoa's character, who has kind of been off sailing around the world or sailing around the nearby area in the Pacific, having a mighty time with his girlfriend, wife. Are they married? I think they're married. Yeah, wife. I think so. Yeah. and her sister and various like hangers-on who kind of seem to have kind of opted out of the cycle of war and violence that's happening in the other islands of Hawaii. But then when Chief Kahekili, I think I'm pronouncing that correctly, played by - Kahekili. Okay. Chief Kahekili, played by Tamura Morrison, suddenly decides that it's time to rally his troops and he's on the Isle of Maui and he wants to invade Oahu, basically, and tries to convince Jason Momoa's character to join him.

2:27Kay:And Jason's character is reluctant, but eventually is persuaded to do so by a combination of visions that he sees and foretold predictions as to what was going to happen in his life. Something like that, anyway. And they launch this joint attack and then it all builds up to a quite extraordinary scenes of violence towards the end of this opening episode, which shall we say, don't pull any punches. Yeah. I kept thinking, I watched this a while ago, a couple of weeks ago, but what was in my mind when we reviewed The Count of Monte Cristo, obviously they're very different stories. I get it. They're not, you know, Kay's already looking annoyed with me too.

3:10Kay:Listeners, she downs her latest smoothie, protein smoothie, no doubt. but the comparison is that The Count of Monte Cristo felt quite safe and perfectly well made but slightly unthrilling and unexciting this I think for me is a really surprisingly good I don't know why it's surprising but it's a surprisingly good instantly compelling bit of storytelling that doesn't pull its punches and is kind of out there and I think it's much, it feels like a much more vibrant, thrilling package to me. I'm just comparing it to the most recent other historical drama, basically. Okay, even more shaking your head, frowning, just generally looking angry with me.

3:55Kay:Apparently it's unfair. No, I'm not angry. You know, these things, I'm explaining why. I'm not saying this has an impact on Count of Monster Grist. I'm saying why. For me, the difference, when I get a show that doesn't immediately draw me in and feel different and powerful and bold and dynamic, that makes a difference I'm saying Cabo Antigrista didn't make me feel any of those things whereas this is I think it is a dynamic production and it's fascinating it's telling me about a situation that I didn't really know much about you know I've been to Hawaii funnily enough to go have you yeah oh lost the lost the famous lost the famous lost set visit absolutely six days in Hawaii oh you jammy bastard yeah so I feel like a kindred spirit with the place obviously having been there for at least six days did you wear what he wore like yeah yeah yeah oh yeah that's the other thing we should say that the the costumes are shall we say historically accurate which means basically scantily clad buttock revealing kind of bits of feather you know kind of like loincloth loincloth yeah but barely even a cloth sometimes yeah i mean let's just say if you're a fan of the jason momoa physique if you're a fan of the jason momoa butt you've got a lot of treats ahead because it's relentlessly it's relentlessly uh uh focused upon shall we say fair enough it all seems obviously it all seems very historically accurate um but no i was i it was particularly i think the way it built up to this ultra violent ending uh captured me so yeah i thought it was uh i thought it was good so i just first of all just want to say you can't i don't think this can be compared to the council of monte cristo which is uh an entirely different story set in an entirely different place you know like within the first episode the council of monte cristo is sent to a remote prison and then that's where it's going to be largely set i'm sure and this is sent in exotic you know like in hawaii on these various islands with i think it's just mad but i do understand i do appreciate what you mean it's not exactly the same story no but it's no i must admit i i'm fairly sure the scene in which sam claflin staves someone's head in with a wooden sword embedded with human teeth was uh was cut from the final tv version that we saw but uh it Unfortunately, it was on the cutting room floor.

6:03No, but I do take your point. I really enjoyed this because I didn't know anything about this story, about the different islands and the sort of war between them in the early 19th century. And I thought it was really well told. And the thing is, as you say, it is a passion project. So you can just tell how much time and effort and love has gone into this by Jason and also Thomas. And also it just feels incredibly, as you say, accurate and I think respectful to the culture, which I really like because I imagine everyone behind the scenes and on screen have connections to Polynesian culture. And I think it really makes a difference.

6:51And that's what I really loved about this. It felt like this was a love letter to those islands in a way. and the violence you know you think that I would be kind of squeamish because I hate violent scenes and it's not because of how Jason Momoa was dressed but I didn't find it um I didn't find it too much weirdly and I was trying to figure out why I don't know if it's because they were using spears and for some reason spear violence doesn't uh make me squeamish but I don't know it felt very sort of um it's very well choreographed it felt kind of quite theatrical maybe maybe it was that as well i don't know but um i enjoyed it i enjoyed its ambition and the look of it it

7:33Kay:just felt very epic yeah yeah hawaii's a nice place it's fairly safe to say yeah well i think that a lot of the backdrops filmed elsewhere by the way um but god damn it some of it anyway not not some of it but what i was gonna say like luton or yeah basically lstreet studios yeah yeah bedfordshire somewhere um no but i think most of its films you know around different different areas but it's very like another it's very dynamic like if you talk about that opening scene with the shark i don't know if you i think you mentioned maybe alluded to it where he's wrestling with the shark now i'm sure james has got stuff to say about cgi i don't you know i don't maybe uh look at it in the same way that your forensic eye does i had no issue with the shark oh really yeah in which case i mean i just thought it was that was clearly jason ramo's bid to take part in the next series of shark celebrities i think so yeah oh shark infested Yeah, he's going to replace Lenny Henry.

8:25Kay:When Lenny gets eaten, Jason will step in. Yeah, yeah. But you know what? It's funny about the term passion project, because I was going to say that it's literally called a passion project in the Apple TV Plus press release, I believe. But I think it slightly does it a disservice, because when I think of passion projects are often indulgent. You think self-indulgent, don't you? Yeah, you think self-indulgent, of limited appeal to the mainstream, you know, all of that. I think it's slight. you know when I said it myself I was like but I meant to mention but in brackets that doesn't mean it is self-indulgent and not of wider interest because it's actually you know if they didn't use that term and obviously it is it is it's detailing something that's very dear to Jason Momara and the other people involved hearts I've heard sorry to interrupt I've heard him describe it as a life project his life project which feels more he says it's my brave heart my dances with rules oh my god I mean I can't stand brave heart so you know it's like oh yeah Braveshots another Boyd-y barbarism Mel Gibson Mel Gibson also Spears yeah Mel Gibson ego fest I think one of the good things about this is it's not an ego fest for Jason Momoa at all you know I think you've got fully rounded characters surrounding him you know so yeah it is a passion project but don't let that put you off is my message it is generally of wide appeal and it's really really brilliantly done shot in New Zealand by the way Bay of Islands New Zealand yes we've got listeners there too I believe I'm sure we have.

9:50Kay:Stand in 18th century Hawaii. The violence was quite a lot. It wasn't too bad, but there was a point where I was like, oh my God, it's seven o 'clock in the morning. It's too early to see someone's head carved in half with a wooden sword with teeth in it. I was just like, this is a lot before breakfast. But there isn't too much, especially in the first episode. There's not actually loads and loads of violence. It is reserved towards the end. Weirdly, it's the Momoa violence which is the most extreme. Because as you say, most of it's just lobbing spears left and right. but then momoa has this really gnarly weapon so it's quite it's quite intense the skull cracker yeah well that's what we'll call it uh yeah it's it's it's quite a lot um do you know what it's like i wasn't sure what to make of this when i went in because i thought exactly as boydy said i thought is this going to be massively self-indulgent i'm not sure also it is hawaiian language and i was just like okay you know don't get me wrong love shogun but you know i'm not generally a fan of subtitle shows um but actually there was something about this very early on i think it's just the way it starts it starts with them on a boat sort of as you said catching this shark uh and just the way they're doing it and that you you kind of immediately get immersed in the culture and i think that's what draws you in it feels so distinct and different and of its time and of its location that the characters almost come out of that like it feels like the island culture really so they nail it quite early on and that that i think is what hooks you much like the shark in fact and then you know you get into you get into obviously the character stuff the fact that he was a sort of like the son of a chief who's kind of not in exile but he's fucked off to go and live on on kawaii and uh and then comes back to take part in this shall we say ill-conceived war and this is all building up towards the unification of hawaii under kamehameha who's the sort of famous chief who who unified the you know the hawaiian islands it's funny because obviously it's Maui, Oahu, Kauai, and then Hawaii was the big island, which is of course now just called Big Island.

11:44Kay:So it's had a bit of a downgrading name. But yeah, it's great. I'm glad you said all those names. Thank you. That was my one consideration when I was reviewing it. I thought, oh my God, how am I going to do this? I will not name the islands. I've always wanted to go Hawaii. Unfortunately, unlike Boyd, I was not invited to the set of Lost. So I did not go. So yeah, I've never been. One day, one day I will go and hopefully I will dress appropriately in a loincloth with a kind of feathered headdress and arrive on a kind of little war boat. That's how I want to turn up on Hawaii. James, it's too early for those reasons.

12:16Kay:You should get tattooed from your neck downwards. Yeah, I might do that as well. The pilot logo. Because Tamura Morrison as Chief Karkili, he is fantastic. He is not a nice man. He is horrible. No, he's not a nice man. So, you know, it doesn't exactly soft soap as well, the various other tribal figures, you know, at the time. He is nasty, that guy. I thought that was interesting. Just side note, speaking of the subtitles, when I was watching this screener on our – it was Apple TV, isn't it? Apple TV platform. I was just watching it, and it was all in – what were these – was it Hawaiian? Yeah. So they were speaking at blah, blah, blah, and there weren't any subtitles, and I thought, oh, God, do you know what, actually?

12:59yeah because at first i was like what's going on and i was like no yeah you know they should speak in their own you know what i don't need to understand it's just setting the scene and no no no no it's just that the subtitles weren't automatically on that is that is genuinely true

13:15Kay:so on all on all apple screeners on the press site they don't have the subtitles on by default regardless of what language since you do have to manually turn them on it was hilarious i watched a full five minutes just immersing myself in the Hawaiian language. Yeah, and you're like, this is so immersive. This is how Momoa intended it to be. Yeah. That would have been quite bold, wouldn't it? Just done the whole thing without subtitles. You just have to pick it up. Yeah. You have to learn the language as you go. Did you watch the final episode first without subtitles? Is that... Boyd, you nearly made me spit out my smoothie.

13:49No, I didn't. The two of you

13:50Kay:are like drinking away. Boyd, he's got his tea. Kay's got a smoothie. I feel like I should have a drink but yeah so Chief of War which does feel epic and it feels expensive and it feels grand and sweeping and all of those things and it's stunning to behold maybe better than better than C I mean let's not be ridiculous the problem really and I was going to get to this is that the issue with this show really is that everyone has full vision and I think really if they didn't it would be a far better show and it would therefore be C but it was nice to see Bubba Voss wearing a different outfit so I enjoyed that yeah yeah good c2 then chief of war which comes to apple tv plus when would he

14:32Kay:c2 better than c chief of war arrives on apple tv plus on friday the 1st of august 2025 excellent now we're doing this week's podcast very early this week uh it is actually monday morning bright and early monday morning so we are very much ahead of time so this week we only have an extended post bag but what a post bag it will be kay has promised big things from this so big up kay's post bag ladies and gentlemen it's miss k versus the post bag

15:13i can't change you never do you know what i was wondering why you're in such a good mood are we you saying why we're recording early why are you being mysterious are you gonna announce the fact that you're going on a luxurious wonderful i don't know what you're talking about i don't know okay listen dear listeners the reason why we're doing this at the crack of dawn on monday morning is because our um beloved james is heading off on a jolly to i don't know this is a vital

15:39Kay:assignment okay a vital piece of business work yeah i am going on so what i'm saying is going Going forward, when I go on my very important trips, I will now not be teased by him because he's going on a magnificent tour of Thailand. Look, okay. It's, you know, sometimes, you know, when there's work to be done, you've just got to strap in and do it. And look, I may or may not be staying in the hotel they use for the White Lotus. You know, I can't confirm that. But, you know, I'm just, I'm going to have to go and do work. It just happens to be overseas. Are you really? Are you going to reenact the White Lotus?

16:10Kay:Is that what you're going to say? It's possible. It's possible. Hopefully only certain parts of it. but yes I hope not to reenact the whole thing you didn't tell us this detail you kept that bit quiet to be fair to be fair they use a number of places for the White Lotus it is one of them it is not you know oh please yeah we've all had to alter our timetables of lives to fit with James's jolly to the White Lotus in Thailand that's right yeah okay well we need faces on the ground I'm going to speak exclusively like Parker Posey the entire time I'm there yeah oh my god Thank God I'm off myself on holiday on Friday.

16:47Kay:Papa, no! I'm just practicing. Does that work? Basically, what you're hearing, listeners, is I'm being abandoned by both James and Boyd, and I will be holding the fort. No, not really, but we will be doing it remotely next record as well. So that's why, anyway, that's why we're recording early, and that's why we're doing an extended postbag, which I'm delighted about, because when I tipped the postbag up, there was a lot in the corners. So I've got some old ones I want to go through first. so the first one is from Kate with subject heading am I the idiot and then it starts off saying fave body of all time normally I'm an insufferable twat see your classic listener um is this the listener or you is it saying it wasn't I was gonna say when I say classic listener I meant classic pilot podcast host um and whenever someone doesn't think a show is amazing that I think is amazing I tend to think they're just an idiot that doesn't understand it and if they think a show is amazing that I think is shit, I think it's because they are once again an idiot with basic taste.

17:47Is this from James?

17:49Kay:Wow. I obviously only quietly think this, but this is a safe place and I think we can all be honest about our deep down judgments. I mean, it's true. There are caveats as I appreciate that there are some great genres that are just not for me and I don't discredit views of people who do like them. For instance, it takes a lot for me to be really on board with sci-fi. Maybe I've written this email. you three however have become exempt of the idiotic of the idiot rule as over the years i've got to know your tastes and why you like the things you do and tend to always respect your opinions even if i don't fully agree and i don't think any of you are idiots that's kind um pretty much most of the time i tend to fall completely in line with boyd's reviews and if you think something is brilliant it's basically a stamp of assurance i will as well you're on an island of one there but carry on.

18:38Well, isn't it? Except there's been a recent show that all three of you have enjoyed that I thought was an absolute drivel and this has completely thrown my axis off its tilt. And I don't understand where I'm going wrong. I thought department Q was complete and utter wank.

18:57Kay:Wow. That's a hot take. Yeah. I hate the overstyling like an A-level student has got their hands on the prop department key and got an absolute boner. I hate it that whilst the specific details in the plot were not predictable, the general structure of the plot was really predictable. I know it's a book adaptation, but I just felt it was really obvious it was a book adaptation with its absurd thriller plot line. I really felt it was obvious from the start that she was going to be held captive by someone ridiculous in somewhere ridiculous. When the little Mrs. Doubtfire lady came on screen and started talking into the microphone, I basically tapped out of the show as it confirmed...

19:33Hello, dear!

19:37as it confirmed everywhere I thought the show was going, which is into complete lunacy. I'm not incapable of suspending my disbelief, but I do like police dramas and thrillers to have a real sense of foreboding reality, like this could maybe happen. I'm not incapable of suspending my belief, but I do like police dramas and thrillers to have a real sense of foreboding reality, like this could maybe happen. Also, I couldn't stand the ridiculous hyperbolic character of the woman running the mental institute home. Like it suddenly shifted into an episode of Ryan Murphy's American Horror Story. It all just seemed really GCSE drama performance.

20:12See, just writing this review has erased me so much, I've downgraded it from an A-level production. And his Syrian sidekick seems such a trope. What? Do not come for Akram. Do not come for Akram. No.

20:24Kay:Unbelievable. She says the overlooked and undervalued Watson to his Sherlock, the real brains of the duo. Again, just really predictable. I honestly don't understand the comparison to Slow Horses, other than the fact it's a reject department. Slow Horses is so smart and subtle and witty, but all three of you enjoyed this, which means I'm the idiot, question mark. Are you able to convince me to continue watching? Love you always, Kate. I must admit, I'm not sure. The Slow Horses thing, I think it is just a reject thing. I don't think there's a huge comparison there with Slow Horses. I do think it's really good.

20:53Kay:I'm on board with the Asylum lady though, because she does feel like she's from a different show, just tonally. That was weird. And I'm not sure I loved it, but then i kind of got on board with it because as long as you kind of spend time with her you're like all right fine weather but i just i really like the show the main thing i didn't like was the title sequence like the title sequence annoyed me again the tonality of it just didn't didn't fit for me um but yeah i but as we discussed like it's it's really they're really compelling characters they're a lot of fun to be around and also i didn't see where the plot was going in this at all it definitely has a like a literary structure to it but i think that's to its benefit rather than a negative i really like that that kind of tight literary thriller structure but yeah i i mean it's it's one of my favorite shows of the year as we as we have said uh how many have they said how many episodes they watch that's the question um uh no but she got to the part with the uh woman in the institute so okay which is what at least a couple of episodes in um i don't know maybe it's just not for you it is it is it has a it has a strange tone to it and obviously there are some not most likable characters in it so i guess it won't be for everyone but uh no i stand by it i think it's great yeah the title sequence is a bit similar to slow horses isn't it i think that's uh i can't even remember it oh i love the slow horses title sequence i love the i love the song but there was the style of it was quite similar wasn't it i think without not doesn't have an amazing mick jagger song what is it it's kind of i felt like um i don't know whatever the um i don't know what that looks almost part animated you know kind of way the characters are depicted.

22:27Kay:This is very incoherent. Anyway, all I remember was, oh, that's a bit like I remember thinking about the title sequence. But as a whole, it just, my taste ranged very much from you know, ultra-realistic Jimmy McGovern drama to completely borderline preposterous, highly stylized, over-the-top shenanigans like i think a little bit department q watts i think it was deliberately you know the the uh i really liked the um asylum woman i thought she was hilarious i couldn't stand her i thought she was hilarious and um but i like that kind of thing i don't mind having really over-the-top characters wandering in suddenly from another show you know it kind of um i think it adds to the whole entertainment value often um so um i don't think it was trying to be that you know that realistic conceptual I think it was trying to be a really good fun time and sometimes that is the kind of preference for me I'm not that bothered about you know kind of slight far-fetched plot turns etc like yeah how does she get hold of the thing that is central to the storyline well there's a little bit of background detail on that as soon as you remember there's a bit of a flashback to a previous period that explains the use of certain things in the show, I'm trying to spoil it, in a candid way.

23:49Kay:Anyway, I really enjoyed the over-the-topness of it, but I can see that it's definitely not to everyone's takes. I was slightly surprised in a way that you both liked it as much as I did, but it is often preposterous. And the explanation at the end is quite clunky. I wouldn't deny that. It's quite, you have to really kind of pay attention to the machinations, the plot machinations. Do you remember when they reveal what's been going on? You're like, okay. I didn't think the revelation of what was going on was the strongest point of the show, to be honest. Shall we say that? But I really enjoyed the texture of it and the flashing back and forward and all the stuff going on with the various characters and their twisted personality.

24:30Kay:So yeah, I can see how a lot of people might find it borderline idiotic. I can see that. I think it's just a show you've got to go with, right? You have to let it wash over you. Some of the details are a bit more ludicrous. although I cannot let that woman in the Institute go because I thought that was ridiculous. I think sometimes it comes down to character, doesn't it, with these things? Like a lot of the sort of like crime thrillers that we watch, the actual sort of like ins and outs of the whodunit is less important than how compelling you find the characters, how much you enjoy their company and their interactions.

25:03Kay:I think these characters were great, but as we said before, he's a massive bellend. So if that does put you off, then completely, I can totally get why people wouldn't like the show. Which actually is surprising that you liked it so much, James, right? Because your threshold with bellendries is low. That's true. It is true. But I think because it becomes clear quite early on, through his scenes, largely with Kelly MacDonald's character, why he's a bellend. And I think that's interesting to me. Like, he's been through some shit. I mean, he's a bellend at the very beginning, even before some of the shit starts.

25:35Kay:But there's a reason for all of it. So he's not sort of like a motiveless bellendery. He's not a baseless bellend. He's not a baseless bellend. exactly that and I think that's very important he's not a baseless bellend by the way I was going to say by the way there are elements of slow horses that are preposterous I mean you have to of course there are in fact all of it all of it yeah really I mean the whole premise is it's ridiculous it's ridiculous exactly so you know I mean you have to pick and choose I always say this when people talk about every film reviewer going always talk about plot holes and stuff and I always say plot holes only matter if you just don't like something If you like it and embrace it and you go along for the ride, as you say, Kay, about I think we all did with this show, then it doesn't matter that some of it is completely ridiculous.

26:20Kay:You just embrace it. Whereas if you take against a show or film, then an obvious moment that doesn't make any sense, you're furious about it and you're like, why isn't anyone else seeing this massive, in quotes, plothole? But it basically comes down to whether you like it or not, whether you like the vibe or not for me. Yeah. But I think a level of consistent internal logic is always nice. I think what bothers me is when there's clearly a bit of the screenwriting which hasn't joined up. So I watched Palm Springs. Have you seen Palm Springs? I watched that last night. I've seen it before. But there's a bit in there and I realise there's a massive plot hole in Palm Springs and it really bugged the shit out of me.

26:58Kay:Because something that applies to one character, a goat, doesn't apply to the main character, which is something to do with the time loop. anyway I can't ruin it I can't ruin the film because you know people might want to watch it it's very good you should it's great but anyway keep an eye out for the goat because the goat's fate is inconsistent with the ultimate main character's fate and it bothered me well that's a good example because it wouldn't bother me at all and it's such a fun ride that film it's great it didn't ruin the film for me but I still was like you you yeah of course you were okay well we're going into film territory so I'm going to move on and goat territory yes Oh, always going to go territory.

27:36Love goods. Right. This message comes from Louis. Louis? He says, hey, guys, you often joke that one of you is in the pocket of XYZ when you hosted a Q &A or talked to the people involved making a certain TV show, which in turn could mean that you're more likely to have a positive opinion of that show. My question is, has there ever been a situation where exactly the opposite happens, meaning after talking to people involved or visiting the set, it impacted your view of a show negatively? I know you probably won't name names, but maybe there are some good stories there.

28:09Kay:I would have thought that's quite unusual because generally speaking, when you speak to someone on a project and somebody, it makes you more positive towards it. Because, you know, they explain their vision and their passion and they normally speak very enthusiastically about it. And you come to understand it because you speak to the creators and the people involved. And so I think it always, you know, it's rarely going to go the other way unless you go on set. and actually this has been the case for me before where the person running it is a complete nightmare and is horrible to everyone you're like oh my god and that sometimes maybe does make you think oh god this this is horrible um yeah so yeah i guess i'm just completely contradicting myself yes it can happen very specific i've had that very experience it wasn't a showrunner it was an actor in a show that i was going on set for and they they were just like unreal to the people not to me that's the thing to the people around them uh very you know experienced talented people behind the scenes and i was just like what a monster and consequently i didn't watch the show yeah it's funny isn't it yeah you would think when there's a journalist on set because they do know they are all told that people would be on their best behavior but that is not always the case i think if you are unfortunately a baseless bellend then it tends to come out whether if there is press there or not.