PLUS Gomorrah: The Origins 

0:08Hello and welcome to Pilot Plus. I'm Boyd Hilton. And to celebrate the imminent 400th episode of Pilot TV Podcast, although when you look at the podcast list on Apple Podcasts, it says that we're way off beyond 400 episodes. So I don't really know how that's worked out. Yeah. Oh, that little voice you heard there, the little spoiler. I was building up to that, to the excitement. But, you know, hold your horses, second voice, because I haven't got there yet. So we're approaching officially our 400th episode, which will be next week. But in the build-up to that, especially to celebrate, what better way of commemorating the 400th episode of the Pilot TV podcast, including Pilot Plus, of which this is that, than by getting rid of James entirely and making sure he can't impinge upon our enjoyment of this historic moment.

1:02So we've got rid of him for two weeks. For two weeks, you're not going to hear any of James droning on about friends, about the expanse, all of foundation, all of that nonsense. And instead, you've got me hosting the show for the next couple of the weeks. and the joyous surprise, which has already been ruined because you've heard her voice already. I'm joined by my esteemed co-host, the grand return of Kay Ribeiro. Welcome, Kay. Thank you, Boydo. Sorry, I know I ruined that. It's just when I hear your voice and you're talking, I just want to answer. So yeah, I got ahead of myself. Excellent. Too excited.

1:42Don't get too excited. No, get even more excited. Today, we're reviewing Gamora The Origins, which is, I know Kay's a huge fan of subtitled foreign language dramas. So I especially came up with this for us to review. Its official title, of course, is Gomorrah Le Origine in the Italian. So we'll be looking at that. It's the sequel. It's the prequel series, really, to the Gomorrah, epic Gomorrah show, which went on for about five series and dozens and dozens of episodes of an absolute phenomenon in Italy. and, frankly, around the world, Kay. So we'll be reviewing that and we'll be opening the postbag.

2:24Kay will be opening the postbag, as is her won't. Yes, it's like my cheek. We'll be answering some of your questions. Gamora of the Origins, though, is first up. It is the prequel, as I said, to the hugely successful and popular and excellent Italian crime saga, which was based on a real-life nonfiction book, which detailed the rise and rise of the gangster culture in Napoli, Italy. And it was absolutely astonishing, just in terms of the kind of authenticity of the whole thing. It was written by a guy called Roberto Saviano, who kind of explored all of the worlds of this extreme, violent and powerful gang lord and gang family.

3:13So are these real characters based on real people? they are basically loose-dumor people obviously he couldn't he couldn't base them too closely doesn't want to get shot otherwise he's going to get killed yeah but he is still with us thankfully because I think he's been very careful in how he depicts these things it's a pretty no holds barred approach to this whole world it's going to it's on Sky Atlantic and now and Kay as a fan of foreign language stuff as I mentioned what did you think? do you know what I'm just going straight in I really, really like this. So I hadn't watched any of the previous series.

3:51So I was coming new to it. And I thought, you know, when you do that, you sometimes think, oh, God, is it going to be completely confusing to me? Because I'm not invested in these characters. But actually, if you think about it, it's the perfect place to start, because as you say, it's the prequel. And I just loved everything about it. I think, you know, as you say, Boyd, I'm a massive fan of foreign dramas, as the correspondent of Pilot Podcast, having reviewed maybe three shows. and um and this one i would say is top of my list i just i love that it's so it's the way i think it's so beautifully shot first of all that's the thing that struck me first is just how wonderfully it's shot it instantly makes me want to live there um and there's just such a sort of dreamlike quality to it you know it's so dreamy dreamy and romantic and it romance i mean it romanticises the violence and the crime, of course, but you find yourself wanting, you feel immersed in it.

4:45You find yourself probably wanting to live there, if you're me. Wait a minute, wait a minute. Amid all the violence and gang culture, and back in 1977. You probably transplanted back to 1977 where it's set. If I had full body armour and I stayed out of the fiery line, I don't know, do you know what I mean? it had that romantic quality to it just you know it is of course and it's very impoverished and yeah okay so maybe i wouldn't but i i wouldn't mind having a short stay there and hanging out with pietro so from i mean i had to read up about it before i began because i wanted to have some knowledge of it and is that how i'm saying his name right is it pietro i believe so yeah pietro well they often were calling calling piet or p or whatever i'll call him p for ease of my try and pronounce it so it starts in 1977 and um p is a 16 year old boy having fun with his friends you know i think the aspect of you know when i was saying i wanted to live there it's like they're just having fun dancing in the cafe having a good time um but they're also involved in a little bit of petty crime and um they're working for this sort of like very charming young local gangster called Angelo, who is running an illegal gambling den.

6:03And they're doing some very small, low-key tasks for him and jobs. But it's clear that P wants to be part of Angelo's world. And I'd say the themes of the show really are love and ambition. And it's clear that P plus Angelo himself, who I find quite charming. And that's the thing with these characters. I think it's easy to... You fancy Angelo. No. I mean, listen, is he a good looking man? Yes, he is. But I mean, I felt sympathy for him in a way because they're all locked in this situation through wanting to provide for their families and friends, right? To have a better life. So, you know, sometimes when you watch crime dramas, they're like so unsympathetic because they've become so hardened and they're so brutal and violent.

6:48Whereas you can see this guy is conflicted and he works for a big crime boss called Don Antonio, who's in charge of the second Liano. Just random Italian words, throw them in, yeah. He's in charge of this. I presume it's an area void. I don't know. It's an area, yeah. And P basically gets involved with this local gang, as I said, but he helps Angelo out because something goes awry within the gambling den and P provides valuable information to identify who has caused Angelo a major headache. and what's really interesting is like when you're when you're watching it you just see the exact moment that Pietro lose you know loses his innocence and and the corruption sets in it's really like in a way it's heartbreaking because it's this boy who ultimately is quite small fry just loves hanging out with his friends dancing he does do these criminal things but they're quite you know they're not serious but yeah but you know and obviously if anyone who watches the series the main series knows where this is leading to so yeah I really love the way it's shot I really like the characters and I also enjoyed and I don't usually enjoy this with shows because I want to be entertained constantly and you know that's that thing of wanting it to be propulsive I like how it takes its time it really does take its time deliberately paced but in a good way I think it's so measured you know how everything it takes its time sweet time and particularly when it gets to the really, as the tension ratchets up, right?

8:22It's so agonising in a way. Like even the creak of a leather jacket at one point, I was like, oh my God, what's happening? Yeah. How many episodes did you watch? I've only watched one, but I'm going to continue. Okay, like you said, but okay. Well, we've got a lot of shows this week, Boyd. But the last thing I want to mention about it, of why I really, really liked it, other than all the reasons listed, is the fact that the violence isn't graphic. right so there's in this first episode so far i warn you that in fact it does get graphic as it goes on oh really yeah okay fine i thought i thought it was doing a like a novel thing where you're not going to see as much violence because in this first episode particularly at least you don't see a lot it's implied which is very effective because obviously what you're imagining probably is far worse but um all i'd say is wait till episode four yeah i really oh no okay so yeah And, you know, as I said, it's got a romantic feel anyway, just in the way it's shot.

9:21But also we see the moment that the fateful encounter of P with Emma. Yes. So for anyone who watches. Emma is his love interest. Yeah. His love interest who becomes his wife. Yeah. Yeah. She's an outstanding singer. Oh, is she? Yes. It turns out. She was holding an instrument, actually. So, yeah. Makes sense. She's a musician and singer. And yeah, she's very kind of talented. You were taken by her musical talents. I was. Yeah. there's a scene again so i've watched four episodes and there's a scene in episode four where she she drags him not drags him but she says follow me because he kind of you know doesn't i wouldn't say he doesn't take his talent seriously but he does not fully aware so she takes him to a rehearsal for a performance she's about to do and it's brilliant because he's just like stunned watching her singing this song yeah so she's she's a key character i had a question actually which you'll be able to answer so in the first episode there is a uh prison scene and i wondered because i haven't got knowledge of the characters i wondered is that one is that a rival crime boss who's gonna um i think it's more of a politician who um is is going to try to is is possibly corrupt but also is going to try to kind of um work for the neighborhood against the crime families.

10:40Yeah, so yeah, I'm pretty sure that's his role. As I said, I watched, yeah, I mean, it's absolutely brilliant, is the bottom line. I'm really, to be honest, let's be honest, let's draw the veil. What's the phrase? Let's show what's beneath the veil. Let's show what's beneath the veil. Beneath the veil is the fact that - Let's get under that curtain. Is that at the moment, pretty much every major new show that arrives is heavily embargoed until the day it comes out. I mean, part of the reason we do Plus is because we can cover stuff that was embargoed that we can get to. But this week, it's all embargoed.

11:20So, you know, I didn't have hardly any choice of what to cover. And I was like, hold on, Gamora of the Origins, Gamora of the Origine is starting. And I was a huge Gamora fan. Both there was a film and there was a TV show, etc. And the film and TV show didn't have that much to do with each other. But I was expecting this to be good, so having watched most of the original Gamora series. But I don't think I was expecting it to be quite this spectacular. Oh, really? Yeah, because as you say, the visuals in this are even more grandiose than they were in Gamora. Gamora was all about kind of like the brutalism of the architecture in the kind of, you know, 90s, 80s, 90s, et cetera.

12:05Whereas in this earlier phase, it's still, that's yet to come. And it is, you're right, the kind of the landscape, the cityscape and the settings and the way it's shot and the lighting. It's very much, I have to say, slightly pompously influenced by the classic film Once Upon a Time in America. To the extent that, and I'm not going to say whether that's one of my favourite films of all time, but it's definitely a contender. We've got some correspondence about this. Oh, excellent. Oh, I didn't know that. Excellent. Anyway, it's definitely one of the greatest films of all time. One of your favourite films.

12:39It's generally considered to be hugely Robert De Niro, Sergio Leone. And why I think it's deliberate is because the colour scheme in that film is very much like kind of browns, dark, kind of like vivid browns and kind of gold almost. And it's all shot in a kind of golden hue. And this very much looks like Once Upon a Time in America. and it even has a little bit of a flute on the soundtrack, which is the signature Ennio Morricone theme tune of Once Upon a Time A Record. It's this incredible, beautiful kind of, I think it's a flute kind of woodwind. Woodwind instrument. Instrument. Anyway, it's definitely deliberate.

13:21So it's not piccolo? It might be a piccolo. It may well be. I don't know my little wind and struts, I admit. So it's got that look. It's definitely, definitely deliberately got that look. And in fact, I looked up, I think, oh, this is very Once Upon a Time America. And then I read an interview with the director who was like, yeah, absolutely. He was, you know, using that as a starting point. But then it starts with this scene, as you say, with him and his gang, Pietro, P-A-P, whatever the fuck it's called, doing this kind of like dance. Luca Lombrano. Thank you. The actor, yes. They do this like dance-off, this disco dance-off, because it's 1977 and disco was arriving.

13:58And so it's really interesting the way it seizes upon that as the cultural phenomenon. Because of course, Saturday Night Fever came a year later in 1978. But I think that they have classic disco songs as needle drops throughout. And that opening scene where you're watching this gang of kids outdoing each other. It's so joyful. Yeah, it's brilliant. But that's what's so clever about it. It's then so powerful when he gets drawn in, almost not against his will, but as you say, in the deliberate pacing issue, there are a lot of close-ups of his faces and the faces of these kids as they begin to realise what they're getting themselves into.

14:40Yeah, particularly him, especially as he gets deeper and deeper into it. Right, exactly. I don't think it's against his will at all. I think it's a real conscious decision of his because he wants to sort of... You know, he wants to emulate Angelo. He wants that life. 100 % you're right. But I think there's moments where, particularly as it goes on, and there are moments where people are saying to him, no, no, no, don't get involved in this thing. And I'm pointing out, there's two options in life, in these kids' lives. Leave it alone. Don't get involved. Just have a good time with your disco dancing.

15:18Have a lovely time with your disco dancing. watching, watch your girlfriend singing, etc. She gets drawn in, by the way, into a really powerful kind of abuse storyline. Oh, really? Yeah, it's really interesting. What I'm trying to say is that it looks at the – basically, for someone like him, he wants to make a name for himself and his friends, one of them wants to be a footballer. One of them's just like, you know, we want to go into this magical restaurant where one of the early crimes is committed. and they look, I want to go one day when I'm an adult, I want to have, what's the line? Just like all the food in the world until we explode.

15:54It's good at emphasising just how young they are. Yeah, yeah. You know, and innocent. Absolutely. Then by the time you get to this, this big, the whole thing is set up to, there's a kind of gang rivalry between these French dudes, these French gangsters and his friends, Pietro's friends, older friends. and the French guys invite them all to this party, this big party where they're going to kind of like thrash out, you know, what's going on. And everyone knows. It's so clever because as it builds up to this party, which takes place in episode four, all the characters know that they're heading into a trap.

16:31You know, like they're all like, we can't not go because that would be humiliating. They've got to go and deal with the obvious threat of these French guys who feel that they've been robbed by the Italian mafia guys. And it builds up. And episode four, honestly, is one of the best single episodes. Oh, wow. Part of the reason I carried on watching because I read online somewhere, said, you know, you've got to get to episode four because it's so the party scene. And it's such a brilliant set piece. It's literally as good as... You know, The Godfather, Once Upon a Time in America, as I've mentioned, Scarface, these classic gangster crime movies.

17:11It's up there with that. it's so brilliantly handled it's so brilliantly done do you know what some people don't like it when you do that but I love it when you tell me to continue to look you know to make sure I see it you did that in fact for do you remember Smoke with Taron Egerton you said you have to get to episode 2 because it's going to go it's going to go crazy yes bonkers and so alright well I was going to continue watching anyway because yeah I think it's fab but definitely get to episode 4 yeah I think it's absolutely phenomenal yeah it's even even better than I expected I think in some ways it's even better than the original Grimora.

17:43And I think it does take its time. You're right, the pace is deliberately paced, but there's so much tension. There's always, as you say, there's always a lot of tension involved. You know, even Emma gets involved with stuff that is, you know, yeah, that she shouldn't get involved with, but she doesn't have much say in the matter, to be fair. Everyone's just trying to survive, aren't they? That's the thing. Exactly. And it's all like, you know, it's pride and reputation. Because in this first episode, you know Angelo has to make decisions that ideally he probably wouldn't have to but you know his hands are tied either his hands are tied or another person's are and you'd rather think the other person there's a lot of tying of hands yeah it's not bondage just to be clear steady steady I think it's too early in the morning for that no I was thinking about that apart from you so all in all yeah I was absolutely blown away by it I have to say I was so pleased genuinely you probably wouldn't have even looked at it or reviewed it.

18:41I wouldn't have watched it. So once again, this is why the podcast is brilliant. It's introducing us. Let's blow our own trumpet. Let's do some trumpet blowing. Yeah. Well, we're into the woodwind. Exactly. Well, that's brass actually, isn't it? Sorry. Very good. But thankfully, to be brutally honest, we only did it because there wasn't much else we could do in this episode of Pilot Plus, apart from the postcard coming up. But what a brilliant thing to have in the end, because it is so good, honestly. Fans of Gamora, go on. I never say this, but thank God for embargoes then. I thought you were going to say thank God for me.

19:15Well, I wanted to ask you now, given what we've said about that, would you have liked to have lived? No, absolutely not. You're mad. It is violent. As soon as you started saying that with all the criminality, I was like, oh, I know. It's just the director makes it look so beautiful. Yeah, but he doesn't flinch. The violence issue, yeah, It all kicks off again in episode four. The violence will more than make up for the lack of it. Well, that's fine. If it's beautifully shot, then it's fine. Totally beautifully shot, yeah. But would I, I mean, of course, you forget I was alive in 1977. I was around, not in Naples, not in Laplace.

19:57I was alive in Ilford, Essex, which I tell you, Kay. Very similar? Not too far. Not too far from the mean streets of Napoli. are the Mean Streets of Gants Hill. I'd like to think that you were somewhere in a cafe doing your own disco dance-off with your friends. But I can confirm that the whole disco thing was absolutely massive. Really? It was just such a predominant thing in the culture. Yeah, all the, you know, because it went from kind of punk. I mean, I'm sure you're fascinated by this history lesson in popular music. It went from punk in 76, 77, 78, and then at the same time, which was kind of a reaction to the rise of disco, Donna Summer, et cetera, et cetera.

20:40And then Saturday Night Fever came along, as I said, 1978, and changed the whole world. And that became the biggest album of all time. I didn't have flares, no. But I just remember the music. I just remember everyone. You had to have a copy of Saturday Night Fever, the album. Literally every single person in the world had a copy of that album. And still to this day, it's a brilliant thing. Anyway, I've been completely sidetracked. But the music and everything, the authenticity, what that sort of touches upon in Gomorrah, the origins, Gomorrah, the origine, is astonishing. Yeah, exactly. Well, very good.

21:17So it's, and the clothes and the music and all of that, you know, are so phenomenally, feel phenomenally accurate, don't they, historically? Yeah, 100%. True. So Gomorrah, the origins is available now, Kay, pleased to know, on Sky Atlantic and now, formerly known as Now TV. Now we just call it Now. People think we're making your outfits wrong, but it's called Now. And it's all there now. And I strongly recommend it. Six episodes. Get on it. Oh, very exciting. And now I believe it's time to open the post bag. Ladies and gentlemen, it's Miss Kay versus the post bag.

22:11Yes, okay, right. Our first message is from Amar, who says, Hi gang, I guess the Yellowstone brand is one I'm going to have to put up with rather than live up to, smiley face. But one of the things the show does is cast really good young versions of the characters. Josh Lucas as a young John Dusson is great, but the best is Forrest Smith, who plays a young Lloyd. and fun fact he's the son of Forry J. Smith who plays current day Lloyd the question is who are the most memorable castings of characters younger selves? For me the stand up is always the young Dolores Langdingham in the West Wing played by Chex Google Kirsten Nelson she seems to capture the character brilliantly I look forward to your top best Rip Wheeler moments.

22:54Well you said that you had an answer to this question this question involves some research on my part Boyd James sent us the questions in advance and if you've chosen not to do your homework no I'll go first while you hastily google because um yeah well one one of mine was a google answer I was I was googling to just refresh my memory um so this answer didn't instantly come up in my mind but when I saw it on the list I was like oh my god yeah of course Viola now is it Pretz John Pretz John as the young Queen Elizabeth in The Crown later played by Claire Foyd do you remember She looked like the absolute double ganger of her.

23:32So that was a great bit of casting. Who is it you're saying again? Viola Prette, Prette John? P-R-E-T-T-E John. You look at me with a confuzzled face, but I'm just reading the words on... Yeah, you've cunningly seized upon the crown, which of course is the ultimate song, isn't it, of a show that had people, the same characters, the same real life characters, ageing through each series. But I had never heard of this person. Claire Foy played the queen in episode. Yes, and then the younger version. Oh, okay. While you look up images, let me give – because I have got two more answers to this, Boyd.

24:10You'll be shocked to hear because you know I only like to give one. The other one is – so did you – I think you reviewed the Legally Blonde prequel. Yes, we did, yes. So I think Lexi Maintree as Elle Wood, I think she was well cast as that because I think she had the charisma of Reese with Spoon and a similar vibe and look. I think she was the thing that held that together. So I thought she was great. And then my last answer, because James is not here, so I feel I can get away with it, is connected to EastEnders. But I have to say, Daniel Delaney, who plays the young Phil Mitchell in, they occasionally do these flashback episodes for really poignant moments, sometimes standalone episodes.

24:54this guy is incredible anyone who's ever watched the show and who knows what Phil Mitchell is like Daniel Delaney basically is him he looks like him and his performance, all his mannerisms is he having an aneurysm? oh my god all his aneurysm, mannerisms all his mannerisms are so spot on it's like watching just a young Phil with Grant so I'll have to give him credit for that and those Boyd are my three answers very good answers I can't better them to be honest I was just looking up Viola Prétijon I guarantee you if you said to people in like a pub quiz who played who's the first version of Queen Elizabeth in The Crown hardly anyone would remember that Viola Prétijon played Queen Elizabeth yeah because they'll remember Clef Boyd but I know yeah yeah that's what I'm saying I think that's being a bit harsh on Viola she was very good I just, I guess it's because we've had all the series of it.

25:58You know, how many series? Six series in the end. And she probably didn't have as much screen time, obviously, as Claire Boyd, you know, later did. So she's more stamped in our memories. But don't you think she looks really like a double ganger? Now you've come to remind me, yeah. She was very good. Yeah, looked very much like it. Off the top of my head, I can't come up with any other examples. That's fine. Listen, as always, I'm just here to carry the load. Yeah. Right. Maybe you'll have an answer for this one. Oh, actually, I don't think you are, but I'm just going to ask you anyway. Okay, so this is from - Can you deliberately put questions that take you to my research?

26:36No, no, no. No, for this one, I don't think you'll have an answer because you're very good at what you do, your job. Steady. Yeah, I know. An unlikely compliment. Get used to it. Very unlikely, yeah. By the way, this is cool. Talking of EastEnders, we should have mentioned, this is a dot-netthor. We have people who realise this by now. Yes. We refer to them as Dot and Ethel when it's just two of us. Droning on. Carry on. I'm Ethel in this equation and you are Dot. Fine. So this is from Givion. I think I've said his name right. And he says, Hello, pilot pretties. I arrived home yesterday after a glorious two-week holiday in Spain, devoted almost entirely to crime fiction and sunbathing.

27:15Before boarding my flight back to breezy Iceland, I decided to finally download the first season of Jack Ryan, a series that has been sitting on my sofa list for ages. This sounds like James with his sofa list. Determined not to raw dog the flight home, I pressed play on episode one. I'm a huge fan of Tom Clancy since the late 90s, and my favourite Ryanverse novel is The Cardinal of the Kremlin, which tragically has never been adapted for screen. Well, listen, you never know, it might be. Is it called The Cardinal of the Kremlin? Okay, Karen. I absolutely devoured the first two episodes on the flight and now fully expect to binge the rest over the summer.

27:52The strange thing is that I'm almost eight years late to the party given when the series first aired. So my question is, have you ever been fashionably late to a TV show that should have been completely up your street? Which series did you come to years after everyone else only to end up loving to bits? Keep up the excellent work. The podcast is the perfect companion for my painfully early Monday and Thursday gym sessions. Best wishes. Well, of course, you are a very good person to ask this question, really, aren't you? Because let's face it, you have a history. Listen, Kay has a history of getting into TV shows, sometimes decades after they've been on.

28:27Yeah, so I've teed you up for it. Go on, you can give me a little bit of a slagging because it is your regular response to this. And it is true. So go on. Was it the West Wing? Yeah, it was the West Wing. Yeah. I one day came into work and was like, oh, my God, Boyd, the West Wing is amazing and he actually stopped what he was doing he put his head in his hands his desk, started rubbing his eyes and then started laughing because he was like how will you only come to this a decade later or whatever it was yes I have to say and I feel no shame around this no shame not that you're trying to make me feel shame but in the past I have felt embarrassed because obviously you know with what we do and stuff Although CV is only one part of what I do.

29:13But yeah, I often will come to stuff later, not a decade later. That was an extreme example, but a bit later than everyone else. And I actually don't care because I'm seeing it as everyone else is like the royal tasters, right, for me, to sample it and see. I mean, that very much sums up your regal approach to life. Queen K, Diva. Boyd's my royal sampler, right? so I get him to watch everything and then if he gets into something then I might consider it. So yeah. That's good to know. I have that power over you. So I'm coming late so as not to waste my time and then I really get into something and then I am that annoying person who will then talk to him about the thing that he watched however long ago.

30:00But so there are many things. West Wing being a great example. What about you? Is there anything, Royda? I said you'd find it hard to answer because you just watched everything instantly. I do watch most things instantly. I mean, you could go back in history. I don't think I watched The Wire as soon as it arrived. In fact, I'm trying to remember how and where it arrived on British TV. I failed to watch it, not first time around, but certainly for a while. And then halfway through season one of The Wire, all the critics were so enamoured with it, enamoured of it, enamoured by it, they were enamoured that I thought oh I've got to check out The Wire because I saw it as, I didn't really engage with what it really was, The Wire it's like a gangster drama you know like Gamora and I was like it takes someone to tell you this is not just a normal saga, this is something special and explain how special it is and it's the characters because, you know, it was the show that brought Idris Elba to fame and fortune, quite rightly, because he's so brilliant in it.