In short
Pilot Plus discusses ITV1 crime drama Karen Pirie (Series 2) and then gives spoiler-heavy reactions to The Bear season 4, plus a “postbag” segment about TV spoilers and listener feedback.
Guests
No external guests appear in the transcript. Hosts are Lauren Lyle (mentioned as an actor/part-time podcaster) and the podcast’s regular hosts (Boyd and Kay are repeatedly referenced). Andrew Lincoln is mentioned as a guest/interview subject in a separate context.
Guest backgrounds (mentioned)
Lauren Lyle is the lead as Karen Pirie. Andrew Lincoln is referenced as appearing in an upcoming ITV show (The Life/This Life referenced). Karen Pirie is written by E. McKinney, who also appears as River Wild (forensic anthropologist).
Key claims
Karen Pirie’s dual timeline and “juicy” in-depth pacing make it unusually satisfying; Karen’s authority and ongoing affair complicate the investigation. The Bear season 4 is a step up from season 3, with standout episodes like the wedding episode and strong character/relationship writing.
Notable examples
Karen Pirie’s 1984 kidnapping case (James Cosmo as a suspect; Katrina and her 2-year-old son Adam kidnapped outside a Fife fish and chip shop). The Bear’s wedding “under the table” TARDIS-like staging; Bruce Hornsby “The Way It Is” needle drop; Luca (Will Poulter) as a “secret ingredient” character; Rob Reiner cameo as Albert Schur; finale alleyway scenes.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VORecording Mishaps and Confusion
0:45 to 2:24
Discussion about recording issues during interviews and the dynamics among hosts.
“Because a man like Boyd shouldn't have to press record.”
Introduction to Karen Pirie Series
2:24 to 4:04
Overview of the second series of Karen Pirie based on Val McDermid's novels.
“Well, I mean, you also do loads of interviews, like mostly for obscure fantasy shows.”
Plot Details and Character Introductions
4:04 to 5:54
Discussion on the main plot of the show involving a cold case and character dynamics.
“McKinney writes it, and she's also in it.”
Character Dynamics and Themes
5:54 to 8:00
Exploration of character relationships, themes of authority, and personal conflicts.
“So if you're having an affair which could affect, he's on a team so it literally could affect the investigation.”
Narrative Style and Unique Features
8:00 to 10:28
Analysis of the show's dual timeline and narrative style enhancing the story.
“to use that horrible word, is completely on point.”
Overall Impressions of Karen Pirie
10:28 to 13:20
Summary of impressions and thoughts on the series' pacing and enjoyment.
“Talk about a TV show being much better than a big film with two Robert De Niro's.”
Postbag Interaction
13:42 to 14:00
Engagement with listener feedback and anecdotes about TV series spoilers.
“Ladies and gentlemen, it's Miss Kaye versus the postbag.”
Listener Spoilers and Experiences
14:00 to 15:00
Listeners share their experiences with TV and film spoilers.
“Okay, so let's start with this message from Martin, who says, Hi guys, I was settling in to watch the latest series of You, and I couldn't remember if it was the last ever series or not.”
Discussion on Spoilers in Popular Shows
15:00 to 16:40
The hosts discuss various shows that have been spoiled for them.
“We've got a limit on time we've got to spend on the podcast.”
Personal Spoiler Stories
16:40 to 19:20
Each host shares personal stories about being spoiled on popular shows.
“Or being on the internet, or speaking to other humans.”
Show all 24 chapters
Spoilers from the Entertainment Industry
19:20 to 22:00
The conversation shifts to the impact of spoilers in the industry and among audiences.
“Because even, do you know when I hadn't watched Race Across the World and the final, I managed to not know it till I watched, do you know what I mean?”
Listener Feedback and Show Pronunciations
22:00 to 26:00
Hosts address listener feedback on show pronunciations and miscommunications.
“I mean, fair enough, what a way to go out.”
Reception of Lena Dunham's 'Too Much'
26:00 to 28:00
The hosts discuss varying opinions on the show 'Too Much' and its lead character.
“and wondered what this new show, The Samurai Turned Pretty, was.”
Discussion on Female Characterization
28:00 to 30:31
Exploration of the pressures and perceptions surrounding female leads in shows.
“But then also Hayley raises a good point.”
Postbag Segment and Listener Feedback
30:31 to 31:35
Hosts discuss listener feedback and suggestions for podcast improvement.
“If you'd like to contribute to the postbag, that email address again is pilottv at empiremagazine.com.”
Transition to The Bear Discussion
31:35 to 32:05
Hosts prepare to dive into discussing The Bear season 4 after acknowledging its Emmy nomination.
“You've been dying to talk about this and ruin it for people.”
In-Depth Analysis of The Bear Season 4
32:05 to 38:30
Detailed analysis of key episodes and characters from The Bear's fourth season.
“Yes, well, I really like this series, season four of The Bear.”
Character Insights and Emotional Moments
38:30 to 42:00
Discussion on character development and emotional scenes in The Bear.
“I'm sorry you brought that because I forgot I meant to be on my questions to answer.”
Rob Reiner's Role in The Bear
42:00 to 43:20
Discussion on the character and impact of Rob Reiner's role in the series.
“And one more thing I want to mention, sorry, before you carry on, is the appearance of Rob Reiner.”
Carmi's Emotional Journey
43:20 to 45:00
Exploring Carmi's character development and emotional struggles throughout the series.
“I was saying what CGI madness is this is he a Fremen?”
The Finale's Impact
45:00 to 47:40
Analysis of the finale's performances and emotional depth, particularly in key scenes.
“So it's kind of perpetuating this unhealthy pattern he's got himself into.”
Richie's Character Arc
47:40 to 49:30
Examining Richie's growth and significance in the season's narrative.
“You believed, you believe Jamie Lee, like that she's this woman with so many failings and flaws that she's recognising issues she's finally dealing with, the strength it takes.”
Claire's Role and Reception
49:30 to 53:50
Discussion on Claire's character and her relationship dynamics within the show.
“you know like someone's an aunt you know they assign a role an honorific yes but I think a turning point for Kami also was when he was talking to his mum and she was like I just think about you and Natalie and Mikey.”
Season Highlights and Emmy Nominations
53:50 to 55:50
Recap of season highlights and Emmy nominations, including notable performances.
“And also, it's not saying that they're definitely together.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:07Kay:Welcome to Pilot Plus, your extended guide to every show that matters. And this week we are all being a Karen, specifically a Karen Pirrie, as the second series of E. McKinney's adaptation of the Val McDermid crime novels arrives on ITV1. Lauren Lyle is in the tight role of this show. She's an actor and a part-time podcaster. And I bring that up because she's so surprising understanding on last week's podcast when the recording of her interview with Boydie went, I think it's fair to say, mildly tits up. Isn't that right, Boydie? Yeah. Oh, I haven't listened to it back, but yes. Yes. There was confusion about, A, who was recording it.
0:43Not you, it turns out. Apparently not me. And whether we started or not, yeah. Do you know what?
0:49Boydy:Because a man like Boyd shouldn't have to press record. It's true. Right? He should have someone to do it for him.
0:54Kay:I mean, to be fair, I've been that man. I've been recording man where I have come along just to press record
0:59Boydy:J.D. Foster in two big one example
1:01Kay:you say that but we haven't done that for a while Boydy's button man that's my job you have not done that for a while I think we need to recreate I'm like your entourage I just turn up I press record and then I just sit there quietly
1:11Boydy:you press Boyd's buttons
1:12Kay:yeah that's it to be honest I keep telling PRs when they say do you want to do it in person I keep telling them no I can't we can't because we haven't got the equipment most of the time they do just record but it turns out you can't work out
1:21Boydy:the equipment from home either so No, no, no, no. This was a case where I thought they were recording it because they set it up. Who are you throwing specifically under the bus? I'm not going to know.
1:32Kay:It wounds me. It wounds me to jump to Boydie's defence, but he is, in this case, 100 % correct. If someone sets themselves up a Zoom call, Boydie couldn't have recorded it if he had wanted to. Yes, that is true. Because he doesn't have control over the call.
1:44Boydy:Let's always be fair.
1:45Kay:So, yes, let's all be fair to Boyd. Please, God. Luddite that he is, in this case, he was 100 % correct. It happened again yesterday when I did another actor of some renown. Yeah, funnily enough. How long has the interview gone in before you realised it wasn't even recorded? I mean, it was a couple of minutes. To be fair to the host this time, she actually said, do you want to re-record the beginning? She was acting like you, my producer. And she had a good point. I was like, yes, thank you. Yeah, I would, yeah.
2:10Boydy:Was it awkward with the actor in question? The actor and the writer together, they were great. They were in a very good form. So, yeah, I don't know why I'm being so... It's Andrew Lincoln. And it's from an upcoming show on ITV. Yeah, the great egg from this life. He's a good egg. Yeah. He is a great egg about it. Interesting interview. Didn't know about that. Not in the calendar, but it's all good.
2:27Kay:It's all good. Well, I mean, you also do loads of interviews, like mostly for obscure fantasy shows.
2:34Boydy:Do you put them in the calendar? I do. Any chance for him to drop the C-bomb?
2:37Kay:Yeah. I mean, it happens. It's true. Okay, well, this has been fun, but obviously, Boyd is in the pocket of big Ema. So, Kay, you are not currently besties with either the star or writer of this show. But wait a minute.
2:48Boydy:Well, actually, I also am.
2:50Kay:Oh, my God. It's a double pocket.
2:52Boydy:Yeah. So I will be hosting a screening.
2:56Kay:Oh, you will be? You haven't done it yet, though. No, but I will. No, but she's taking, like, 20 pieces of silver. Yeah, so I actually think Boyd's better placed.
3:03Boydy:Yeah. What?
3:03Kay:So now we revert back to Boyd, who is compromised, but is arguably less compromised than Kay, who has literally been paid off. Wow. A reverse ferret. So this is the second series of the show that is adapted from the novels by Val McDermott, the woman, the legend. and it's the format first of all is bold I think in this day and age so each series is made up of three two hour including ads slots on ITV one of a Sunday evening 8 till 10 o 'clock and that is like you're taking one novel and you're turning it into three films three three feature length dramas three feature length TV dramas and I think that's you know that is a bold but very it bears fruit because you really get a chance to dig into the cases and the characters.
3:52And quite unusually so. I think it gives time for the story to breathe and for certain moments to kind of sink in. I just think one of the most pleasurable things about it is that it's a kind of juicy, proper, in-depth kind of show. And as you said, E. McKinney writes it, and she's also in it. She plays Karen Perry's flatmate, the brilliantly named River Wild, who is also a forensic anthropologist, who in this case, more than in the previous, is actually on screen quite a lot because she's kind of helping with the main case, which is an incident that happened in 1984. Remember, it's a cold case show where they're looking back at historical cases.
4:30And this time around, because the event happened in 1984 and involved a very rich, famous businessman played by James Cosmo. Not Cosmo Jarvis, listeners, but James Cosmo. Crucially, James Cosmo. James Cosmo, your close personal friend. The veteran, grizzled, beardy actor of renown, who I mistakenly referred to as James Cosmo famously at the BFI screening. No, he is James Cosmo. That was fine. You referred to him as Cosmo Jarvis. That's right. Whichever way around it was, I don't care.
5:03Boydy:All these months and years later still confuzzled. Thank you. Anyway, he's a major suspect in this case, which involves the kidnapping of his daughter, Katrina, played by Julia Brown, who is the heiress to his vast fortune. and her two-year-old son Adam. And basically we see them kidnapped at gunpoint outside a fish and chip shop in Fife. And a radical kind of environmental group claims responsibility and sends ransom notes. But basically they disappear and their various loved ones, including her dad and various people she's having affairs with and all kinds of other... There's a good clutch of suspects because she was never seen again after this kind of incident.
5:41And the kind of trail went cold. The police ended up, you know, stopping their inquiries. and so it's kind of because it's a high profile case involving a very rich famous wealthy man it's quite funny because Karen gets a big massive new office she gets a whole team including Mint the funny
5:59Boydy:I like him Mint is very funny it's civil to work out whether Mint is kind of is genuinely a bit dim or whether it's just his manner and he's actually fine this is DC Jason Murray
6:08Kay:yeah played by Chris Jenks played brilliantly by Chris Jenks yeah also to complicate things she's still going out with DS Phil and their affair, they've kept a secret from the powers even though it's against the rules. So if you're having an affair which could affect, he's on a team so it literally could affect the investigation. And it does. And it does, yeah. They ride roughshod over that and they just kind of... So it's a rich tapestry of the original crime investigating that, her dealing with her private life to some extent, her grappling with her bum bag which is obviously in every single scene and I don't know about you I don't know how far you two have got I've watched the whole thing partly because I did you know I was interviewing them I wanted to kind of get the whole thing get the whole juicy story dealt with and they end up going abroad in the end I won't spoil it Fiji?
6:59Not Fiji no sunny climbs sunnier climbs I will say Isle of Wight then
7:03Boydy:Does the bum bag still feature? I was going to say in the very first shot where Karen reluctantly goes to this sunnier climb and complains about because she's pale and can't deal with the heat The first shot you see is her in the bum bag who made it to this destination. I think because Ema Kenny has a brilliant sense of humour, she was there, of course, when I went on set of The Curse with Tom Davis, and she's one of the stars of that show and co-writer, I think, of part of that show. She's very funny, she's very smart, and this show totally reflects her sensibility, I think, even though Val McDermott's stuff is the original IP, if you like.
7:43The whole series is injected with wryly funny humour. I think Lauren Lyall is fantastically cast in the main role because she's also constantly making fun of herself and her colleagues. And the banter, the bants, to use that horrible word, is completely on point. I think it's extremely believable. It's the kind of stuff that police people take the piss out of each other for. But because she has a kind of disdain for a lot of the kind of traditional police roles, etc. And the sexism with the police, which was dealt with a lot in the first series, more than this. It was explicit in the first series, it's more just part of the whole tapestry of her life in this series.
8:24But she is brilliant as well. The whole thing is fantastic broadcast. And it's just one of the best, I think one of the best crime drama, murder mystery type things out there.
8:33Boydy:I agree with Voyage. I really like this. I like it because of the dual timeline. Because I think it really allows you to kind of get under the skin of these and really get to know the victims and the perpetrators. And usually, you know, flashbacks can be quite annoying, but because it's this dual timeline, I think it really enriches the story and the whole investigation. I think it's great to see Karen with more authority because she's an inspector now, the authority she craved before, and how she deals with it because in spite of being in charge of this investigation, she is still blunt and still runs roughshod, over her superiors who, you know, she has to be careful this time as well because there's a new member on the team who actually is the eyes and ears of her superior.
9:20Boydy:And yeah, I also am just fascinated by her relationship dynamic with Phil, the fact that it's still going on and how that is going to affect the case because obviously as you say it is unprofessional and no doubt there will be consequences. The two and two and nine thing is key yes I absolutely should have mentioned that yeah because that's another thing that gives I think a unique edge is that it's constantly chopping between what happened in the case that it's being investigated and they established that in the first series didn't they it's not distracting it doesn't ruin the momentum it's woven in yeah it's done seamlessly and what they do really well is the younger versions of the older characters are really well cut so they just look enough like their equivalents you know the young James Cosmo slash Cosmo Jarvis imagine if it had been played by Cosmo Jarvis I mean that genuinely would have been genius I might suggest that.
10:07They look nothing like each other, but that would have been genius. Although Cosmo Jarvis is quite comedian-like because he looks really weird in that terrible Alto Knights film with two Robert De Niro's. He had this massive neck in that and I still don't understand what that was about, whether it was a prosthetic, whether he just...
10:23Boydy:Well, maybe he was just having a big neck though. Well, a big neck a few months, I think, whatever. Anyway, this is much better than that. Talk about a TV show being much better than a big film with two Robert De Niro's. And it's not even in the show because he's Cosmo Jarvis and not James Cosmo. But James Cosmo is... I'm a flight of fancy. James Cosmo is very good in it as well and very believable as the kind of multi-billionaire oil-rich dude.
10:51Kay:It is a good performance, actually. I really like that because it's sort of mistrustful and weary and sad. And as he mentions, he has all the money in the world but nothing in his life has any meaning anymore, which is kind of tragic. Do you know what? It's like this, I finished the first series of this. I kind of devoured it all when it first aired and I think I, like having a cop at the centre of it who's a bit of a maverick is possibly the most hoary old chestnut in the history of police dramas but there's something slightly different about the way this character is shaped. I don't know whether it comes from the novels or whether this is, you know, Lauren Lyle and Ian McKinney's sort of confection in and of itself but there is a, there's a slightly, eye-rolling, bordering on neurodivergent edge to Karen, which I find incredibly entertaining.
11:42Kay:And she's really, really good company to be around. And I really like the poster. Have you seen the poster for this series? Where it's her surrounded by loads of men, but you can only see them from the neck down because she's short and they're all tall of them. So it's just like this one short woman surrounded by all of these tall men. I mean, I can relate. Yeah, indeed. but I just thought that was a really lovely image and it's very much it's very much the dynamic of this show like you know you've got her superior who not only is kind of slightly undermining of her but is also like pushing her to advance mint the sort of white man on her team and she's kind of like butting up against him her superior played by Steve John Shepard from
12:23Boydy:I don't know and I was watching it and I was like where do I know you from This Life oh is he
12:28Kay:full circle for years I've only ever watched one episode of this song oh my What? God, we need to address that. Maybe we should do it on Pilot Plus one day. Definitely a podcast. But yeah, I watched one episode and couldn't get into it and never did it. Bloody hell. Wow. Oh, I love this life. It's one of my formative TV viewing experiences. Just not this life plus 30 or whatever it was. No, although I didn't hate that. I think people were a bit harsh about that. Oh, well, maybe we should save this for another episode of the podcast. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we'll dig into that probably. But anyway, I really like the story.
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12:56Kay:I'm kind of on board with the crime. I want to know what happened. but more than anything else it's about just spending time with her I agree I think it's it's a really really fun show I think it's also you know me
13:06Boydy:feature length usually just rules something out but I was like oh it's so well paced yeah and it's compelling right so my attention didn't wane at all I was like no I just need to see in fact if I didn't have to come record this this very bloody podcast I would have watched another episode
13:20Kay:well I started the second episode because I was like yep keep on going this is great really enjoying this
13:24Boydy:I can't wait to watch the next two
13:24Kay:yeah good stuff Karen Pirie then series two ITV one It's just started. It started on Sunday, the 20th of July, 2025, at 8 o 'clock. At 8 o 'clock. And look, if you're not in on Sunday at 8 o 'clock, you can record it. Just don't ask Boyd to do it for you. Unbelievable. Time for the postbag. Ladies and gentlemen, it's Miss Kaye versus the postbag.
14:03Boydy:Okay, so let's start with this message from Martin, who says, Hi guys, I was settling in to watch the latest series of You, and I couldn't remember if it was the last ever series or not. So I googled it, only to have Google's dumb fucking AI thing at the top of the page spoil the whole series for me. Wow. I was wondering, what are some of the worst times you've had a TV series or film spoil for you?
14:26Kay:I feel like Boyd should answer this question.
14:28Boydy:that's my answer it's just whenever Boyd talks no another I love your fake laugh another time I was going to see the Sixth Sense the week after it was released I told a guy at work and he turned around and said you know he's dead right thanks for all the great work guys from Martin P.S. one of my favourite needle drops on a recent show was Sharon Van Etten's cover of I Won't Back Down on the criminally underrated Bad Monkey on Apple TV yeah that was I remember that that was very good can I just say with the spoilers there's a really funny bit in the studio I don't remember when we mentioned this I only said this because I'm writing a thing about it for Empire today so I re-watched some of the studio last night and basically they give away about this episode with Ron Howard if you think about it he gives away the endings the twist endings of about a dozen films in the space of about 10 minutes it's brilliant I would advise people not to watch the episode if you still haven't caught up on various famous films with twists very good What other things have been sport for you, though?
15:29Kay:All which things have you spoiled? You know, either way you want to...
15:31Boydy:No, that's going to... We've got a limit on time we've got to spend on the podcast.
15:37Unbelievable. Well, that Apple TV show with Spider-Man, what's his name? Tom Holland.
15:46Kay:Tom Holland, remember that? Yes. The Crowded Room.
15:49Boydy:Oh, yes, you Googled it. It was ruined by the...
15:51Kay:No, it was the title sequences that ruined it. The title sequence in conjunction with looking at it on Wikipedia. and the first line gives it away, or whatever it was on Wikipedia. That was unfortunate, because it really did. I didn't really know what was happening. It's the name of the book. The name of the book it's based on gives away the twist. That is right, yes. And they list it in the title sequences. You would think it would have been more sensible of them to bury it in the end credits, but no. And what was that Elizabeth... Banks. Moss. Moss thing on Apple? Also on Apple. Oh, yes, the one with the serial killer and the...
16:25Kay:I nearly said oh and the I nearly said the dress well that was also ruined for me by me looking up the book online just looking up oh it's from this book who wrote the book and then you fucking ruined that as well I need to look up I've forgotten what it is that was one of my favourite shows of that year and I've completely forgotten what it's called the limited series I'm gonna find it hold on hold on Shining Girls that's it that's it yeah Shining Girls yeah I self ruined it by looking it up too much
16:49Boydy:so maybe the advice is it's not a boogle well yeah partly Maybe we should all just avoid looking stuff up before we watch it.
16:57Kay:Or being on the internet, or speaking to other humans.
17:00Boydy:Yeah, that's true.
17:01Kay:All of this seems sensible. Nick DeSemlian ruined The Wire for me. That was a big one. Yes. When I came to the office one day, and he just went, R.I.P. Omar. And I was like, you absolute twat, because I hadn't watched that day's episode yet. I was like, oh my God. And then I didn't watch Twin Peaks when it first aired. I didn't actually start watching it until the late 90s. And I was out, and I know exactly where I was. I was on Carnaby Street with a bunch of friends under, you know the pub which has William Shakespeare hanging out the window? The Shakespeare. That's the one. It's a clever name.
17:30Kay:And I was, an ex-girlfriend of mine was part of the group and she had heard that I was watching Twin Peaks. And she literally came bounding over to me and went, Laura Palmer's dad was the killer. Ha! And just for no reason out of absolutely nowhere and just ruined the show for me.
17:48Boydy:Wait, had you treated her badly? No! Okay, then she's an asshole. Yeah.
17:51Kay:It was particularly harsh. I was exceptionally unhappy. By the way, anyone who decides to watch Twin Peaks has never seen it before. It's going to be an interesting podcast. That's all I can say. Do you know what's funny? One of the reasons I thought of this is there was a thread about this on the Empire subreddit where Chris did a sports special, Twin Peaks sports special, and he mentioned the fact that who the killer was, who killed Laura Palmer. And someone was furious because they'd just started watching it, now 30 years on, and it had been ruined for them. and they did acknowledge that it has been three decades but still they were annoyed about it.
18:24Boydy:Are you just wanting something similar on the pilot? Yeah, that's basically what I'm doing.
18:27Kay:I'm looking for parity.
18:28Boydy:Okay, fine.
18:29Kay:Well, you've achieved it. Yes, I have. But yes, many, many things like that and I... There's a cameo in a recent series, Ironheart specifically, and that cameo was spoiled for me by Beth Webb in The Office. To be fair, not her fault. She had no idea I hadn't finished it and she was very apologetic. I was like, honestly, don't worry about it, but yeah. it's not I thought haven't you yourself referred to that I have referred to it on this podcast since but in so what you've done
18:57Boydy:is you've ruined it for other people yeah
18:58Kay:I'm paying it forward no I have not been shall we say specific oh okay there is some specificity missing
19:05Boydy:a non-specific spoiler
19:06Kay:yeah that's right fine
19:08Boydy:now for a message hang on you haven't asked the question
19:11Kay:have you
19:11Boydy:yeah very little spoilt for me
19:12Kay:nothing has ever spoiled for you nothing has ever been spoiled no
19:17Boydy:no I don't think so
19:18Kay:no one told you who shot Dirty Den or something?
19:21Boydy:No. Because even, do you know when I hadn't watched Race Across the World and the final, I managed to not know it till I watched, do you know what I mean? Like it was, I watched it maybe even a week after and I had managed to avoid it.
19:34Kay:Ooh, I just thought I ruined the first season of The Apprentice for everyone in the Empire office. The first season of The Apprentice? Why are you excited about that? No, I just remembered it. Like this was the thing. And I didn't realise it was the thing and I didn't realise everyone was invested in it. But I had met the winner because she's friends with a friend of mine's sister and we've been talking about it. And so I went into the office and someone was talking about it. I said, oh, her, she's the one who won The Apprentice. And they were all just like, look to me because obviously it hadn't happened yet.
19:59Kay:So you're not supposed to know. Yeah, she shouldn't be blabbing about it herself. I don't know. But yeah, that was the thing that I knew. And I can't remember if she told me or someone at the party we were at had said, oh, she's won The Apprentice. I can't remember if it might be someone else to mention it. Wasn't there the famous time where, what's her name, on the Bake Off accidentally revealed the winner on the day? Oh, yeah, Prue. Prue on the day.
20:17Boydy:Oh, I feel bad for her. Yeah, she, one of the actual judges. She did it on Twitter by accident. I think she was in South Africa. That's right, she was in a different time zone. She didn't realise that the show hadn't gone on yet. Wow. And she was like, congratulations to whoever won the show. That was brilliant. I love Prue. So that was an answer for you. You must have been watching Baker for that time. I don't know if it's when I'd gone off it.
20:35Kay:Well, you can have that answer. I'll have that one. Do you ever see Maisie Williams on Jimmy Fallon where she pretends to give away the fact that Arya dies at the beginning of the final season of Game of Thrones? And there's a bit where she just stops. She goes, and she goes completely silent. He's like, are you serious? And she acts like she, and she literally gets up and walks off stage as if she's having a meltdown. Everyone in the audience is like, oh my God, oh my God. That's amazing. It's just a massive windup. Wow, that's quite an epic windup. Yeah, it was incredible. She does it really, really well.
21:00Kay:It's very funny. Something to Google.
21:02Boydy:Okay, now for a message from a listener who's across the pond who says, Hi, pod gang. Love listening to the podcast. As a Brit in LA, it stops any hint of homesickness. Hearing my special internet friends coming in my ears.
21:14Kay:I think the phrasing of that.
21:19He goes, but now that we've been through all the correct
21:22Boydy:and otherwise uses of allude, et cetera, I do need to beg you to correct some name pronunciations which are making me grind my teeth to nubs.
21:30Kay:Who's the same that?
21:31Boydy:Right, so this is a thing. Can you imagine my dread when I read that? I thought, oh, God, oh, God, it's all going to be me. But I don't think necessarily it is. You wouldn't be reading it, would you, if it was about you? No, I would. Oh, really? Yeah, I would. Come on, bring it on. Here we go. Come on, what have we done? I've always been clear to everyone I can't say a single name right. And people who come to the live event... Yeah, we edit those out, don't we? Yeah, but the live event, there's no filter there. That's true. That is true. We'll have to get the audience to agree to keep it all secret with me.
21:56We should pick the shows really carefully.
22:00Boydy:The night that I get cancelled. I mean, fair enough, what a way to go out. What happens on stage at King's Place stays on stage. We're going to start with this week's Icelandic drama starring the following people.
22:09Kay:Kay, would you like to tell us who's in the home?
22:11Boydy:I'm going to get a load of sandwich bags and insist everyone puts their phone in it and loads it up go on what? the new Jason Momoa I've watched the new Jason Momoa Chief of War Chief of War have you watched it yet? I haven't watched it oh my god because they're Hawaiian names Polynesian names in half the cast that is going to be exciting come to that yes let's do that on the live show it's not the week we're doing it right? no it's not the live show oh thank god okay fine here are the names that he wants us to say correctly right okay now Will, F-O-R-T-E. How do you say that? Will Forte. Oh, Boyd's getting it right.
22:45Boydy:Maybe it's James. Or maybe it's me. I think that's what we always say, isn't it?
22:48Kay:Will Forte.
22:48Boydy:Really? Maybe it's me. Okay, well, that's, yeah, he's pronouncing it Forte. Yeah, absolutely. Now we've got Merit, W-E-V-E-R. Oh, yeah. Merit Weaver. Weaver. I say Weaver, it's Weaver. I say Merit Weaver. In this instance, I'm delighted to say James is wrong and Boyd's right. It's Weaver. It's Weaver, but it's spelled Weaver.
23:06Kay:I think we've always said Merrick Webber on the podcast. I think I might have said Weaver. That's why he's got in touch. So it's Merrick Weaver.
23:11Boydy:Yeah, Weaver.
23:12Kay:But just missing an A.
23:13Boydy:Yes.
23:13Kay:Okay, good to know.
23:15Boydy:Oh, West Wing creator, writer.
23:18Kay:Well, this is a different one, because in England we would say Aaron Sorkin, in America they would say Aaron Sorkin. Yeah, that's... So that's just a regional thing. That's fair, yeah, that's fair.
23:25Boydy:It's pronounced Aaron, not Aaron.
23:27Kay:Well, actually, do you know what's funny? So I interviewed the entire cast of that show, and I would say 50 % of them called him Aaron on the phone, and 50 % of them called him Aaron, and I found it really disconcerting, where to land on it. Well, we're landing
23:38Boydy:where our listeners are saying we're saying. Are we? Are we? Are we taking him
23:41Kay:over Mike and Sheen? I'm not sure I am. No, because I think
23:44Boydy:half the time my colleagues are getting my surname wrong. So what's that, Kate? Yeah, but this is different. To be fair, this is like Americans call it Aaron, don't they? Yeah, they do. And we call it Aaron. I remember, I interviewed, but I'll never forget, I interviewed him live by satellite at the end of a TV festival and I called him Aaron and he did not correct me. Do we say Aaron here? Yeah. I think I've been always saying Aaron. But then I'm not the benchmark. I've taken your leave.
24:07Kay:I've got very confused now.
24:08Boydy:I'm not the benchmark of how to say things, though. And finally, this one is specifically for Boyd, apparently. So, how do you say A-W-K-W-A-F-I-N-A? I think it's Aquafina, isn't it? Yes, it is. Yes, it is. And he says, I will pay$20 to a Gaza children's charity if at least one of these names is rescued. And then he says, if anyone says, well listen to how Americans pronounce Graham or similar I will fly over and give James a hard stare regardless of who says it. Graham Green, yeah. That was quite useful actually, yeah. Merritt Weaver.
24:44Kay:That's good, that's good. I feel educated. Yes. There's Arsenal about to sign a Swedish footballer. I mean they may well have signed him by the time this podcast goes out. His surname, he's called Victor and his surname is G-Y-O Umlaut K-E-R-E-S which if you said it Yokes well how would you pronounce that
25:05Boydy:Yokes Yokes I mean finally if you're closer to the truth yeah say it spell again G-Y-O-K yeah E-R-E-S yeah I'm going to say Yokes oh that's good because I because it's the G that's silent yeah it's Yooka-Rez it's Yooka-Rez oh Yooka-Rez and I said Gorka-Rez or whatever in a podcast one of my Austin podcasts and I got this this guy you immediately can't very very rudely got back to me saying, listen, you're supposed to be an Arsenal expert, you don't even know how to pronounce our forthcoming... I was like, alright mate, you know, come on. Listen, Boyd, welcome to my world, where I'm googling every single name.
25:42Well, anyway, you're Karez, apparently.
25:44Boydy:Okay.
25:44Kay:FYI.
25:45Boydy:We stand corrected.
25:47Kay:Can I speak a mispronunciation? Can I just say that someone messaged me this morning, one of our listeners, with the following message. Oh God, it's something I've said. They said, just listening to you speak really quickly and wondered what this new show, The Samurai Turned Pretty, was. Was ready to search it out. Really intriguing title. But before I realised you'd actually said, The Samurai Turned Pretty. I would pay good money to watch The Samurai Turned Pretty.
26:14Boydy:That's a good show. Maybe that's our new writing gig we do together.
26:18Kay:Yeah. About a very pretty samurai.
26:21Boydy:Yeah. Good. Something for us to think about. Right. Now for a message from Jane, who said, I'm usually a fan of the pod. Oh, God. Good start. But this last episode where James rates the Institute more highly than the new Lena Dunham comedy too much, I have no words. Maybe he needs a holiday.
26:40Kay:Do you know what? It's really interesting. So we gave, by we, I mean the Empire magazine, gave too much four stars, and a lot of people really liked it. A lot of people have really taken against it. I got, a number of people messaged me to say, oh my God, Boyd said, press on to episode five. You'll never make it through episode two. She's so annoying. And they said something along the lines of like, she was annoying enough in Hacks I don't you know didn't like her take that back so perhaps it's perhaps it's personal I don't know but I had quite a few people saying yeah yeah don't watch too much it's terrible you'll hate it and I was like okay interesting that actually weirdly made me want to watch it a bit more
27:13Boydy:you're so perverse yeah but yeah I well I'll be talking about the Institute on the main podcast from the critics that matter are you like the New Yorker off the top of my head the New Yorker I think Variety but they were like Superman as well well yeah do you not bring it up again no brackets then And they also like Superman. No, there's been a lot of acclaim. It has been, but I said this in my review. If you remember, I knew it would be divisive because she is a lot slash too much for a lot of people. But I completely stick by my original comments. Well, on that note, my last two messages are about too much.
27:46Boydy:So we had Mike who says, Too much is just not a good show. I watched a couple of episodes and couldn't find a single redeeming quality. The entire show is a trope from start to finish.
27:55Kay:Wow.
27:55Boydy:Yeah.
27:56Kay:Mike's coming for you, Boydie. Show me it's a trope. Yeah, okay, carry on.
28:02Boydy:But then also Hayley raises a good point. So she says, really liked hearing your perspectives on this show. I too took a little time to get into it, but was then hooked and binged it all in 24 hours like Boyd. Just want to make a point. I really feel if Jessica was a male lead, he wouldn't be too much at all. And likely there'd be no show. I think it's a particular perspective that many women get, and I would bet Lena Dunham has been told a lot as well. Just like with girls, this one is an astute observation and I really loved the lead and was rooting for her. Gives hope to all of us. Not saying if you don't like the character, you're against women, but clearly Boyd is our favourite feminist.
28:38Yes. No, I think that's a really good point. Yeah, like an eccentric bloke, you know, which we see maverick, loose cannon, you know, absolutely.
28:47Boydy:Or has big emotions, you know, like, and is expressive, like, of them.
28:52Kay:Maybe it's a specific type. I think you're right. I think there's more pressure on female characters to be quite and quite likeable than male characters. But take something like Department Q, where Karl Mork is obviously a lot and I think pushes you to the very edge of maintaining sympathy with them. What I also like about that show is Merit Lingard's character is also a lot and does a very similar thing. But I think each one of them, you still find them captivating and interesting and good company, even though they're both abrasive and raging bellends. And I actually thought it was really brave of that show to have both the victim and the investigator be so, quote-unquote, unlikable by traditional standards.
29:27Kay:But it does still work. I don't think either one of them alienates the viewer. I think you're always on board with them because they're interesting.
29:34Boydy:I struggle with Mork sometimes, as you recall, but I do take your point.
29:39Kay:But yeah, I will watch more of Too Much and find out if she is still Too Much. One of the clever things about Too Much is that as it goes on, you meet more of his, Will Sharp's character's friendship group. Have you seen her later on? And there are some genuinely awful, horrendous people, which completely show you how she's not actually that bad. When you compare her to the horrendous people that he hangs around with, shall I say, then you're like, actually, she's fine. So there's an interesting, I think that's a deliberate move on Lena Dunham's part to show you. She showed some absolutely, undeniably horrendous people in the ensemble.
30:16I mean, it's an effective thing that they used deployed in you as well,
30:19Kay:that we mentioned recently, that he's awful, but everyone around him is so much worse. Yeah, that's true, yeah.
30:24Boydy:That's why I hang out with you two.
30:25Kay:Thank you. Just to make yourself feel better about yourself.
30:28Boydy:I'm a bell-end but look at these two. And that ends the postbag.
30:32Kay:That endeth, here endeth the postbag. If you'd like to contribute to the postbag, that email address again is pilottv at empiremagazine.com.
30:40Boydy:We did have feedback about that which is that someone took the time, actually it was Hayley who took the time to email but she said that she had to forward through the podcast to the postbag because she couldn't remember the email address and she said, for the love of God, please just pin it somewhere on our socials. And I agree. And I said, listen, I think it was Hayley who said it. I said, I will ask James again, but you know what he's like.
31:02Kay:It is the name of the podcast at empiremagazine.com. In the grand scheme of convoluted URLs, it's not the worst.
31:09Boydy:Well, she said, who can remember if it's Empire Magazine, Empire Online, Pilot TV or Pilot Plus. Nobody has time for that, which is a good point.
31:16Kay:I mean, fair.
31:16Boydy:It is a good point. For the time that it would take for you to pin, right would be you know less time than it takes
31:23Kay:so what we've agreed is Kay's going to pin it to her socials if you ever need to know what the email address is go to Kay's socials and you'll find it there pinned
31:29Boydy:you're so perverse I'm going to pin it to your head anyway come on
31:34Kay:okay we are done with the post bag time for the final section of this week's podcast and we're going to get into the bear season 4 fresh from its nomination at this year's Emmys where it was once again nominated for best comedy don't even get me fucking started anyway sound the spoiler alarm before we get into The Bear.
31:55Okay, The Bear.
31:57Kay:Boydie. Yes. You've been dying to talk about this and ruin it for people. You now have free reign. Go nuts. Oh, what a relief. Yes, well, I really like this series, season four of The Bear. And I think, you know, I think none of us were in, there was a big divide, wasn't there, over season three, that people thought was a bit of a... Not on this podcast, but yes, elsewhere. So elsewhere, but not on this podcast. I think generally we found a lot to like in it. But I do think this is a step up from season three. I agree. I think there's just more, I mean, it just shows there's more at stake, if you pardon the pun.
32:36And it's got some brilliant kind of almost one-off episodes that I think will be regarded as... There's one episode, of course, particularly, Bears, which is the seventh episode, which is the wedding episode where the Barzatos gather and they all end up underneath a table with the young kid talking about their various issues in a way that's kind of disguised as they're trying to help the kid who's got a kind of anxiety about dance at the wedding. And I just thought that was such a brilliantly done piece of writing and acting and directing that shows you just how fantastic this show is. Can I ask a question?
33:19of both of you.
33:20Kay:Was it, do you think, a deliberate stylistic choice to make it so that in a TARDIS-like turn of events, the underside of the table was vastly larger than the exterior of the table? Yes. And it seemed to be getting larger with each person who got in there, right? Yeah. It was almost a fantastical TARDIS-like element to it. Yeah, completely. How is this happening? Because there's like 15 of them at the end. Absolutely. But also, what I noticed was there's not many establishing shots or cutaways to a long shot of the table as a whole. So it makes it vague. But even the height of the table seems like a good two feet higher inside than it is outside.
33:57That is true, that is true. I also think there's some under-table action in the previous series. Don't you remember, I think, with him and the two of them, him and the... Do you remember? They kind of talk under the table. Sydney, yes. Yeah, I think so, yeah. Towards the end, yeah. Yeah, so it's a kind of recurring theme of the show that people gather under tables to discuss key events. keep things going on in their lives. So that was a brilliant episode. There are other highlights. In the penultimate episode, Tornado, you know I mentioned before how the Bruce Hornsby song, the show goes on, was back in this episode, having been aired previously as a needle drop in the previous series.
34:37The scene that I didn't say is the scene that it accompanies. Do you remember what the scene is, Kay? James? Where Bruce Hornsby comes back? No, I do not. It's when Natalie tells the crew that Marcus has been nominated in that Food and Wine magazine feature as the new talented chef. And that was such a beautiful moment in the show because I love Marcus. Marcus is like, wow, you know, the heart and soul of the show. And everything about it was so brilliantly done. Marcus's face.
35:06Boydy:He's got this forlorn, like he's just a teddy bear. I love him so much. And I love Natalie's love for him. Yeah, everyone loves him. Yeah, but specifically, you know what she does, don't fuck with Marcus. But the way they set that scene up as well was brilliant because she took the call, you know, oh my God, this is going to be something awful, right? And then she starts smiling towards the end as she gets the news that he's got this feature in the magazine. And then the way she tells everyone. You think it's Sid, right? I thought it was Sid. Yes, are you completely primed to think it's Sid? That's also absolutely brilliant kind of surprise twist on that moment.
35:36I just think that this is a show, I saw someone complaining. In fact, I'll tell you where it was. You know I like to out critics that I don't agree with. I think Vanity Fair wrote an article, someone wrote an article for Vanity Fair, one of their TV writers, saying how using the failure, in quotes, of this season of The Bear as more evidence that generally peak TV's in a decline, and it basically listed all these shows, including, I have to say, The Last of Us, apart from the first couple of episodes. Corridors again. Corridors. And this writer was on an absolute downer about the state of TV, using this season of The Bear, which I consider to have some of the best sequences, slash episodes slash acting slash writing I've seen for ages.
36:15Certainly as good as anything else out there on TV right now. And I just can't believe that people are so, I think people are so spoiled in this age of peak TV, some of them, not all of them, a small minority of people, that they rather childishly think anything that's slightly flawed or doesn't completely, isn't as completely as good as what you think, however good you think the first season, in this case of The Bear was, that it's not good enough. But this is so full of brilliant stuff, The Bear, this season of The Bear. Because then you get to, you know, the finale and the kind of revelation that he wants to extricate himself from the restaurant, that twist.
36:49And those discussions outside the restaurant in the alleyway or wherever it is, in the smoking area, wherever you want to call it, again, fantastically well written and performed. And those are hard things. What I like about The Bear is it takes the difficult moments of life when you have to either decide to do her decision not to go with the guy, not to leave the restaurant and go with the other guy and he's furious with her. It dramatizes these key moments and shows you how people deal with them in a really clever, interesting, authentic way. Whereas other shows, I think, often leave those moments by the wayside.
37:25You'll get the revelation. You won't see people dealing with it there and then because it's hard. It's hard to write these things. without things coming across as too cheesy or too emotional or whatever, or too manipulative. But I thought those moments are so well judged. I thought that whole scenario with them finding out about him wanting to leave was fantastically well done in the finale. And the other thing I did want to mention, which I have alluded to, as you say, in terms of spoiling things and how I kept my powder dry and I did not make it clear who I was referring to, but Kay guessed.
37:58Kay texted me. but the return of Luca, played by Will Poulter, halfway through the series, who's basically decided to be a workie, a glorified workie, when we've seen one amazing... They call them a stache, isn't it? It's basically somebody who works for free in the kitchen. Exactly, somebody who works for free in the kitchen. His performance, that character, I mean, there's almost, on one level, there's always nothing to him. He's just a nice, kind guy, who really bonds with, you know, have bonded very heavily with a couple of stuff. And you feel that that's why he's there. while he's there you know may have gone through a hard time but his happy place is being in this restaurant kitchen with the people he's grown to like and slash maybe even love and Will Porter's performance is so soulful and there's a kind of magic to it it's so subtle and he's so decent oozes decency it's fantastic and I remember in the previous series thinking he's there to contrast with the bullying chefs that you count and the particular one that you know the bear had to deal with at the end of season three if you remember but I just think what a role for Will Porter he's absolutely brilliant and I know
39:04Boydy:this time round it's like he's there to give the pastoral care that no one has time for because Carmi and Sid even though Sid is very compassionate she doesn't have the time because they're against this you've got this pressure on them but these subtle little things whether it's helping Marcus or Tina and the pastor like he's just there on hand
39:19Kay:he's like zen pastry chef he's like little Jiminy Cricket like he comes in and he does a little bit of therapy on everyone and helps Tina as you say get her pastor ready Oh, Tina and the past is timing. I don't, I... Right, I have a question for you. I'm sorry you brought that because I forgot I meant to be on my questions to answer. Why is it such a big deal? I didn't understand that either. I don't get it. I had the same thing. I was like, why? Maybe it is that everything's just taking a little bit too long in the kitchen and she feels that she's holding it up.
39:49Boydy:They explain that. They say that basically, in fact, okay, so I'll admit, so I had nine episodes to binge, right, to do this boiler special. That we forced you to do.
40:00Kay:Forceful binge. Yeah, exactly. Shoved it down my throat. Yeah, we put a countdown clock in your house and that's how long you had to watch it.
40:07Boydy:Anyways, it turns out I missed an episode which I only discovered this morning, which is what, some of it, just there was a gap in my... Classic K. Yeah. I mean, we're lucky it wasn't season one. Oh, you cheeky shitbag. I watched nine episodes. Cheeky shitbag. Anyways, it was episode six. And actually, so I watched that this morning and then it was made clear in that where she's having a conversation with...
40:27Kay:Oh, the Sophie episode. That's a good one.
40:28Boydy:It's the... So, the guy who's the wine guy, he says to Tina, basically, there's a lag, and it's on her, basically her section, with the pasta, i.e. time-wise. So, she's... There's a bit of a slowness in her section. She's slowing things. Oh, yeah. No, no, no. I get that. What I'm saying is, the seconds, she wants to get... She wants to get under three minutes. Yeah. It's like, you know, three... It's not good. The lag, two seconds, three-odd seconds. She's four or five seconds out. Every second counts, Boyd. Every second counts. I know, but that was the title of a BBC quiz show hosted by... Matthew Kelly?
41:02No, he was the magician, you know, the lady. Paul Daniels. Paul Daniels. The absolute legend. Anyway, every second does count, obviously, but in reality, it's not... I don't think it's... Boyd, in that kind of restaurant. That's why you will never have a Michelin-style restaurant. Yeah, exactly. It's true. Anyway.
41:15Boydy:He's just happy with a fillet of fish. What I was going to say is Luca, the final thing about Luca, that is a... Like, he's the one who gets her to do it properly, right? within the time. Because he gets her to chill out. He gets her to chill out, which is fantastic. But also, he's the one, not just with Marcus and various other moments, where he tastes something they've created. And his reaction shots to what he's tasting, he is magnificent. Honestly, he's like, you just want his approval. And they get approval from him. And it's just fantastic, magical stuff. And when he was just holding Sophie, the baby as well.
41:47Oh my God, exactly. An Athena poster. And they wouldn't trust the other. The fuck. Oh my God,
41:53Boydy:they were great this season. The facts are brilliant. They are brilliant. So, yeah, I mean, I just think Will Ports is absolutely the secret recipe of the show, the secret ingredient of the show. And one more thing I want to mention, sorry, before you carry on, is the appearance of Rob Reiner. Albert Schur. As Albert, who is the guy who advises them on opening the different restaurants of the beef. Stay small. The stay small guy. Just to have Rob, brilliant casting. and then the Rob Ryan, Oliver Platt, tete-a-tete at the end
42:24Kay:was just phenomenal. I couldn't genuinely get a read on Rob Ryan's character. I was like... No, he must be a con artist. I felt like he was pulling the wool over Ibrahim's eyes. Yeah, but in the end he's not. No, he's not. He seems to come up with good ideas but he also wants a piece of the action. Yeah, of course. And the other thing is it's such a brilliant rug pull, full of rug pulls this series because you expect that to be the case. You expect it to be dodgy. He's not really. He's genuinely helping them. And I expect the tete-a-tete with Oliver Platt with Jimmy
42:52Boydy:to be like Jimmy's like furious but he's not Jimmy's fine with it Jimmy it's just like listens takes it on board you know and you know doesn't want him wants to get away in the car or whatever but he's a genuinely helpful person who's going to help them with their business yeah decent people exist even in this podcast studio I mean I'll try and find them I'm the Will Porter aren't I of the podcast you think okay yeah yeah you are you're the Albert Schnur
43:21Kay:anyway what did everyone else think I mean it's great it's great but I love the little cameos I love the sort of the moments and I like the returns like Jamie Lee Curtis coming about the scenes between her and Kami oh my god where she's kind of apologising for everything his honestly like his reaction shots the emotion on his face also he has these incredible like cobalt blue eyes
43:43Boydy:what are those eyes? I was saying
43:44Kay:what CGI madness is this is he a Fremen? is he from Dune? I don't understand I don't know what any of that means
43:52Boydy:but they are so blue
43:53Kay:The eyes of Ibad, Kay Okay
43:56Boydy:Whatever you say
43:58Kay:It's quite extraordinary That sequence and then when he's talking to Sid in the alleyway and the fact that he's so you know it doesn't come naturally to him but he's trying to be really open to why he is the way he is and his own feelings and he's apologising for it and he's kind of copying to it and owning to it but also screaming at people at the same time but also saying the reasons why I'm like this why I'm like this and trying to he's trying to kind of articulate the trauma that has been caused by his upbringing his mother, the suicide of his brother all of these different things he's like a ball of anxiety the fact that he was incredibly bullied by Joel McHale's chef he's got all of these issues and by the end of it I think we start to understand that he's beginning to I think a lot of that trauma is tied up in his work as a chef and I feel like he's starting to realise that if he's ever going to be himself again he needs to separate himself from that job, which is that whole identity.
44:51Boydy:He escaped into it, right? Because he was running away from his family stuff. He got into this profession, which ironically demands that he sort of like represses his emotions and feelings. So it's kind of perpetuating this unhealthy pattern he's got himself into. The finale was my absolute favourite episode. I thought it was so, so good. The fact that it just was like so distilled in that little alleyway, just the three of them. I thought the performances were exceptional. and the fact that there's this bit, quite a lot of it, particularly between Sidney and Carmi, they're just talking over each other with such passion and force.
45:23Boydy:But also, you know, like the journey of Carmen, this series has been brilliant and so realistic and you can see, you know, his process of thinking and how he's suddenly realising his patterns and like, you know, you really sort of like are rooting for him. But the truth of it is like also when he's in that situation where you've got someone who's so fired up, Sid who's going through her own shit and she's like turned down this job which she doesn't actually know he knows about and she feels so passionate about it and she's blindsided by his decision and she's screaming at him wanting answers and the thing about calm years and it's completely fine but I would get like Sidney's that because he's processing stuff and he's not used to doing it he's so fucking slow when he talks right and when you combine him with Claire Bear who still annoys me What have you got against Claire Bear?
46:10Yeah I mean latterly in the season
46:13Boydy:I got on board more with her but I remember last series she annoyed me as well. There's something about her, you know, and partly it's because when they are together, they talk so fucking slowly,
46:22Kay:right? Glacial speed. You get frustrated. Yeah,
46:25Boydy:because everything's so, you know, and I'm like, no, speed it up. You know, I'm a bit like Sid, but I thought that finale was exceptional and because for me personally, this series, there were a couple of, I don't want to say dud episodes, but there were a couple that I thought could be either trimmed. The slower ones,
46:43Kay:definitely.
46:44Boydy:Yeah, and just something that I was like, I don't know if I need this. Like the episode where he goes, what? Kami goes somewhere to look around that place. Where is it? It's not a museum. It's like an old building. What is it? Do you remember? Oh, yeah. And he's walking around. And then he ends up going home to see his mum. Yeah. Like, I don't know. There were certain extra layers to it that I didn't need. Yeah, he was looking back on his past, his childhood, in exploring places where he stood out. Yeah, but it wasn't his childhood home. It was just like, yeah, I don't know what the significance was particularly and I didn't need it.
47:13Also, I mean, it's a nice flourish,
47:16Boydy:but Sydney in that dream sequence, you know, her nightmare playing out as she's a host of something. Oh, yeah, I didn't like that. Like, I was just... That was my golden rule. Yeah, dream sequences. I railed against them before. It was just felt gimmick, like, for the sake of it, right? Didn't need it, so it took you out of it. Yeah, so there were moments like this that I just thought could be trimmed back. But for me, the finale made up for all of that and actually the penultimate episode, which was the Dee Dee and Kami confrontation. And it was so raw, right? You believed, you believe Jamie Lee, like that she's this woman with so many failings and flaws that she's recognising issues she's finally dealing with, the strength it takes.
47:51Boydy:And that she is actually role modelling that for Kami. Because, you know, the moment before the wedding when that uncle tells him...
47:58Kay:Bob Odenkirk, yeah. You're exactly the same. No one throws a fork at him this time.
48:02Boydy:Yeah, but the way he says to Kami, he goes, yeah, but you're the same people, you do the same thing. And that moment of realisation for Kami and then to be confronted by his mum who's actually doing something about it, I don't know. the whole thing of him I'll make you something to eat I was bawling
48:17Kay:also the revelation that he was at the funeral and then left which is kind of a big deal as well
48:22Boydy:well thanks for reminding me because that leads me nicely to Richie right who has been the MVP I think this series oh you're obsessed with even more Spackrack I am because he's been so good like he you know even in the dips for this season for me he was a standout every episode because his character progression he brings some humour actually which is much needed which is why they're in the comedy category and his development you know like the way he's dealing with his ex-wife marrying right and those dynamics or the fact that there's this latent rage and anger resentment to Kami which comes you know has such a satisfying conclusion we find out
49:01Kay:you know we peel back the layers and all of that don't we which is great
49:04Boydy:yeah but even just like you know with Kami saying to him I resent you for being in my family I was like fuck that's so deep
49:11Kay:I'm trying to work out because there's a bit when he's like is he your cousin and he's like no he's not is he actually related to them or was he just Mikey's best friend no I think it was just Mikey's best friend because they call him cousin but are they actually in any way related I don't think so I think they've just all embraced him as part of the family
49:27Boydy:I think it's that way that you know in certain cultures you know like someone's an aunt you know they assign a role an honorific yes but I think a turning point for Kami also was when he was talking to his mum and she was like I just think about you and Natalie and Mikey. And she adds Richie. And I think for Kami, that was a real thing of like, fuck, actually, Richie is part of this fabric of this family, even if he doesn't want to admit it. Well, I think he also realizes that Richie, them having Richie as a son figure is replacing him. He's off on his wild adventures in... The French. Yeah, the French.
50:05Is it actually in France? No, it's in California. That's right, yeah. you know he's off having adventures as a chef and meanwhile they've got an actual man who's interested in their lives yeah
50:17Boydy:so while he was gallivanting or whatever you know dealing with his stuff yeah of course Richie was there and I think that is like noted in the last episode and the nice touch by Sid of like okay but Richie's got to be in on this I was like yes
50:29Kay:can we talk about Francie fucking Fag Brie Larson and you talk about the joy of having people yell on top of each other it's a bit where her and that
50:36Boydy:it must be 30 seconds utterly incomprehensible
50:40Kay:they were just yelling at each other over each other it was amazing but also how that resolved was fantastic yeah that was great I love that I love that I like Josh Hartnett in that episode as well his relationship with Richie was fantastic you know that's what I'm saying that episode alone bears with the under table the whole thing from start to finish was a masterpiece I think it's one of the great again that's going to be in my top five episodes of the along with the Lena Dunham fifth episode of Too Much
51:05Boydy:I was going to say to you so when you were skirting around spoilers when you've been talking about the fair and you said one episode you got really emotional. Which one was that? I think it was I wonder when I said that. Well I think I got the mother and son scenes that had me in tears. The Marcus getting the acclaim in the magazine that had me in tears of joy. So it might have been the Marcus I can't remember which way around it is. Maybe the Marcus one might have been first. And then just you know I'm obsessed with it but The Return of Will Porter as well and by the way I have interviewed Will Porter a couple of times in my life and he himself the reason he's cast he's a fucking lovely guy he remembered my name I remember that he's an Arsenal fan I mean the whole thing he's got the whole package so yeah it might have been the Will Porter first arrival when he's in just big sun he walks in and points his birth into tears yeah I think so yeah let's get him on the pod yeah oh my god the life of him let's see I'll tell you what happened to me recently was on Instagram you know sometimes on Instagram something pops up in your feed and you don't really know why like it must have been because I've been googling the bear or whatever I don't know but a bear parody popped up on my I was trying to find it this morning I couldn't find it I was really not annoying it was really funny but you know what it was taking the piss out of was the way in which people have the conversations in the show about their emotions and just the way and there is a certain um way that they're written and performed that is very unique to the bear and this kind of spoof thing with these people pretending to be the characters from the book.
52:37It was hilarious. I was like, it's also a bit harsh because this is a show that deals with emotions. I think, as I said about, you know, including scenes that you might not see in other similar shows. I think that's my favourite thing. But the way it deals with emotions is just genius. But it can be taken the piss off quite easily at the same time.
52:54Boydy:And exposing the emotional immaturity of characters and like, you know, their struggles. Like I just noticed a little note I'd made about episode 10. You know, Kami, he's such a nut. you know he's not a narcissist but he's so sort of focused on how he's feeling he can't see beyond that and the fact that he says to Richie I didn't realize how basically you lost somebody too no shit like that's how you know in his head he is and how he just hasn't valued Richie to this
53:19Kay:point sorry as you know I'm team Richie all the way were you in no way impressed that he uh
53:24Boydy:mended his uh bridges with Claire no I did I mean Claire hater yeah no no did I need him to find In that green sweatshirt, probably not. But no, I'm happy they've sort of reconciled it.
53:36Kay:I thought it was subtly done, that sequence. What, the green jumper? No, no, just them sort of like reconnecting. I thought it was done in a very believable way and it was organic. And again, part of the under the table conference, which I thought was great.
53:49Boydy:Yeah, no, there was a subtlety to it. And also, it's not saying that they're definitely together. It's more that they are both growing. I'm a bit with you with Claire. I know what you mean with Claire. I'm believable this Claire hates. I think she's one of the less three-dimensional characters in the show, is what I'm saying.
54:03Kay:And I don't think so. It's not the performance or anything. It's just I think she's slightly underwritten, as you know.
54:08Boydy:I'd find her annoying. Maybe she'd find you annoying. Yeah. Oh, so you're the lover of Claire. Yes, I love Claire. Yes, that's what it is. My love for Claire is all-consuming. Whereas on the plus side, Nat is just brilliant, right? I love how she is with the brothers. She's always like, sweetheart. She's fantastic. She is one of the MVPs of the show as well. You know, the baby. Sugar. Yeah, what to do with the baby not giving the baby to the idiots to hold. And how much they want to hold the baby. That was really sweet and clever. Yeah, oh my God. And then denying it. And then he wanted to smell her.
54:42Boydy:And then he's like, Neil, when did you last wash your hands? A couple of days ago. But also when he was having the conversation, and I think this is episode six, which I'd missed, so it's fresh in my mind. But you know when he goes to the office to talk to her and he's only half showing his face. Yes, when he tells her
54:57Kay:that he's invited Francie to the wedding.
54:59Boydy:There's such a sort of boyishness to him and their relationship is just so sweet. Yeah, brilliant.
55:06Kay:It was a great season. I really enjoyed it. Fantastic season. It has been nominated for some Emmys, but we will talk about that on Mondays. Now, those Emmys, by the way, I haven't checked this myself, are those Emmys for this season? No, they are not for this season. They are for the previous season. The Emmys eligibility does really go quite late. Not this late. They're definitely for last season. and so Squid Game had it had nominations would be season 2 and this is for season 3 right okay I mean you should get loads of nominations next because we had this last time with the Bear wasn't it where it was season 2 was being nominated as we'd just seen season 3 yeah it's confusing it is confusing we'll get on to the interviews on Monday not only that but we were talking about mixtape featuring Boyd's personal nemesis Jim Sturgis and Narrow Road to the Deep North is on as well and we'll also be reviewing Washington Black on the Disney Plus and I think Mark Gatiss is going to join us.
55:54Kay:Yes. Let's talk about bookish. 100 % he will. Yes. Exciting times. That was another recording for you. I don't know how that's going to turn out. What is the matter? What is happening? It wasn't my fault again. Oh, classic.
56:05Boydy:Wasn't my fault. Jesus Christ.
56:06Kay:Anyway. Well, we hope you enjoyed the show. That's assuming there was a show. Who knows if we've even recorded it. This could just be us talking to ourselves in the studio. Boyd is here, so anything's possible. Unbelievable. Assuming you could even hear us and have heard us, Pilot Out. Thank you.
From the publisher
Boydy is finally able to shower us with all the Bear spoilers he’s been bottling up on the main podcast, as we take a deep dive into Season 4 of this excellent drama (not comedy!). Plus we dig up some cold cases with Lauren Lyle in the second series of Karen Pirie on ITV1 and Kay stirs up some postbag controversy on name pronunciations.
