PLUS Reacher

0:07Welcome to Pilot Plus, your extended guide to every show that matters and we are back with Reacher. My beloved Jack Reacher is back for this fourth season on Prime Video. It is based, of course, on the 13th book in the Jack Reacher oeuvre. And I'm holding up my vintage hardback copy of Gone Tomorrow here. It looks very new. And I love that you're holding it up on a platform where... On an audio medium. So you too can see it. But this is... To prove to us. This is my copy of Gone Tomorrow. And if I were to turn my camera here, you could see all of my Jack Reachers there. every single one in hardback.

0:46Oh my God. Just to show to you how much of a reach ahead I am. Your bookcases are crazy. You need to upload a picture of that because that is insane. Do you know what? I actually might do that. If there's popular demand, I will actually take pictures of my bookshelves and upload them so people can see all my books. There is demand. I need other people to see what I've just seen. That is crazy. Are they in order or are they like colour coordinated? So I order my books in a kind of a brain order. so there's salient positions for books that I particularly like where I run into difficulty Steph is when I mix and match hardbacks and paperbacks within a series why would you do that because sometimes sometimes the paperback will fit in a shelf and the hardback won't and then I would have to separate them and that gives me anxiety so I have to rearrange the entire bookshelf to accommodate that it's a whole crazy psycho John Doe's diary serial killer mess of organization I can't tell you how long it took anyway oh my god and you know what like what's brilliant about Whilst we've been discussing this, Boyd was just reaching back into a random drawer behind him to collect his Lee Child.

1:48Yeah, I found that. Hey, a wanted man. I have it somewhere. I've got that book somewhere. But unlike James, I don't order my books in some kind of weird anal situation. Yeah, I do. I very much do. I do order my books, but my books basically are all like art books and photography books, the books that I have on display. and I keep like any, usually it's like obviously like true crime things or any autobiographies or anything. I just don't have them on display. I don't know why. I just don't want them. Because you're ashamed. Yeah, I don't know what it is. I just like to have coffee table books on my shelf.

2:25Yeah, yeah. Basically, you buy books just to show off. You don't, not to read them. 100%. You're a performative. It's common, it's common. No, I do read all the books, but they're all like, you know, Mark Seliger and like all nice photography books and books on Picasso. Oh, there is nothing pretentious about my books, as people will see when they see them. My books are 100 % James. Well, I love that about you. That's just another reason to love you. Even in my front room where I have my cloth-bound hardbacks on display, they are, again, all very James. There's no fucking Tale of Two Cities. There's no Dostoyevsky.

2:57It's all fucking George R.R. Martin and shit like that. Oh, God, I've missed you. Tale of Two Cities is not pretentious. Only a truly pretentious person, Boyd, would say that. It was a serialised romp, basically. And you decided that is pretentious. Dickens is pretentious now. Dickens, yeah. Oh, my God. I'm saying Dickens is pretentious. I have like a whole drawer under a bed of like Lorenzo Carcaterra books, which I just feel like I can't put on display because I don't know why. Oh, you can definitely put those on display. I think Boyd, he's clearly got a well-thumbed copy of Ulysses above your mantelpiece.

3:29Is that? I think you can have Steinbeck on display. I think that's fine. Yeah, I think you can. Because they do those great covers as well. Truth be told, there is a copy of Of Mice and Men floating around here somewhere. Which we established was a novella and not actually a novel. But we'll go back to times. Anyway, we've bored Boyd because he's doing light admin around the flat as we're talking at the moment. So let's go back to the review at hand, which is, see, this is the first podcast back and we've already gone off the rails. I know. I'm so happy to see you back, though. Did you have a nice holiday?

3:57I did. I did. I had a lovely holiday. I'm going to talk about it on the main podcast. I should also say I listened to every episode of the podcast that you put out while I was away. and I have notes but I'm going to save those until the regular podcast. I was only on two. I, because I'm a professional, broke my holiday to record two with Kay and Boy. You did, yes. So I wasn't on all four but oh, I'm interested to hear the notes. You weren't on all fours. Steady. Steady. Sorry. Anyway, Reacher season four based on Gone Tomorrow the 13th in Leechard's Jack Reacher series. This is show run by Nick Santora and I want to hear Before we do anything else, I want to hear what Boydie thinks about it.

4:36This begins with Jack Reacher on a train. Boydie, I would like to hear, before I get into this, what you think of the show. Well, it's funny because I've got this creeping sensation that, because of what you've said before on the podcast and, in fact, in person. This is the show that he doesn't like. Well, I think it's the show that he's been, somehow he's disappointed about it. I mean, he will speak for himself, probably, in a minute. but you've been you've been oozing you've been kind of manifesting you've been it's been clear that you have issues with this season of the show that you that you know that we all know and love and us jack reacher fans i'm you know i'll have a copy of that lying around somewhere i stopped buying them when his brother fair that's when i stopped reading and this is not it wasn't a deliberate thing but i i stopped reading with the last purely child and i never read exactly same so and and this to be honest this um in the oeuvre as you as you described in your intro is one of my favorite um books i think i i remember it's got such a great opening here he's on the subway he sees a woman who's fretful and something's wrong and he's because he because he's very attuned to all the senses he goes through a checklist of yeah he loves a checklist so she's you know yeah she's like sweating and mumbling and she's definitely something's gone wrong and he thinks that she he thinks she's like a a suicide bomber potentially yes or something um and it turns out to be um that she's got and she kills herself this is the premise by the spoiler this is this is literally the first scene it is the premise it's such a it's such a kind of grabbing setup scenario that uh you're completely in both in the book and and the tv show now i felt that this adaptation this this season i've only watched the first two episodes seems very seems to follow the book very closely like i mean it's been how long ago did that one come out or that's a good question i could check the date on the front i can't remember but it's um 2009 2009 they've made some geographic changes to the main characters right let's just say it was in new york right it was all it was in new york yes and the yeah and and should we say the the plot revolved around a different country yeah i'm being very very vague about this because I don't want to give away any spoilers.

6:53But I haven't read it since then. The only thing I really remember is it was the New York Subway slot and this one, it's moved to Philadelphia. Is that right? Philadelphia, yeah. Anyway, I didn't have an issue with it. So I was sitting there watching it thinking, this is hewing quite closely to the original book, as far as I can remember. It's in classic Reacher style and the way it's shot and acted and directed is slick style of the series that we've enjoyed so far. So I enjoyed it. And it seemed to me like a close, you know, closely attuned to the basics of the original book, if not the detail and the geographical changes.

7:28So I was sitting there thinking, what is James' fucking problem with this new series? If indeed this is the show, you don't know. I have not confirmed. Well, we're about to find out. But you definitely exuded some level of, you had issues. And in fact, I think at one point you said something like, oh, I've got a lot to say about this new series of Richard. Maybe I'm going to say many good things. You don't know. so I'm intrigued I still think Alan Richardson is perfect as Reacher pretty much he's got the body for it he's got the hair he's got the hair, great hair he believes he's as quick witted as he needs to be I like the police being idiotic there's an idiotic policeman character who's kind of like there's like a police duo one of them's a complete moron the other one's quite intelligent and she has to fight with the moronic guy there are all kinds of officials that are after Reacher and there's loads of great interrogation scenes where he inevitably one-ups them and shows them all to be charlatans.

8:24There's great fighting. It takes on five, six, seven, eight different groups of people who want to kill him in the first couple of episodes. So I enjoyed the hell out of it. What is your fucking problem, James? How do you not have a problem, Boydie? Well, do you have a problem? You seem like you've got an issue. Exactly. Do you or do you not have a problem? if you do what is it a few people wrote in into the postbag to identify reacher as the show that i was talking about when i was being incredibly irritating and smug before i went away that that was the show i had an issue with and i am here to tell you unfortunately you are absolutely correct and that was definitely the show that i had an issue with and it is this one how many episodes did you watch boydy two two right okay so sorry can we just say at this point just so people think like i as we sometimes do have issues with screeners and getting screeners in time i have not seen no you haven't i have not seen it which is why james is now going to do 25 solid minutes on what he thinks about breacher because i stayed up till ridiculous o 'clock to see if they'd sent me the screener i got up ridiculous o 'clock early and they i still haven't got it so that is why i am not contributing i'm just going oh right go on sorry steph um i'd actually it's a shame because I would have been interested to see what you thought of it, but I'm not sure that it would have changed anything for the simple reason that this, I had a similar relationship with this season as I did with the previous season of Reacher, which is that when it begins, and also season two, so I should say season one of the show, I think is almost flawless.

9:59Like it is exactly what I want Reacher to be. It's a brilliant adaptation of Killing Floor. I loved every minute of it. I thought it was great. The second season I thought was ill-conceived. It was an adaptation of bad luck and trouble it incorporated neagly hard g uh and his old team and i thought that was too soon and obviously they did it because they're setting up neagly uh for her spin-off series so you want to introduce her neagly who they say neely they say neely yes and it annoys me because she clearly has a g in it the g is not silent anyway anyway the second the second season i thought was ill-conceived because he is like he's the lone wolf he is sherlock homeless he is hobo cop like he is on his own he's doing his thing introducing that team is something i think you needed to earn from a number of books which kind of stick to the reach of formula and then you get to that and then it provides a really interesting change of pace so i didn't like the second season for that reason i didn't think it was a bad season i just that didn't sit right with me the third season i did not like which is persuader that one i wasn't a fan of and one of the things that bothered me about it a little bit as i felt the writing was too on the nose but it was the direction more than anything it had a direction which to me sapped it of energy like it seemed a really non-dynamic direction to the point where this show which i do not imagine is cheap on any level felt cheap to me like it had the whiff of kind of like early 90s network television about it and that and i was like i don't understand why that is because this this is one of the jewels in prime's crown and i don't know why it looks so cheap and so that combined with i would say slightly mixed acting and slightly i thought bad writing it meant that i really didn't love the previous season but i was really looking forward to this one because as you say boyd he gone to my is a really good book it's a it was a great premise it's really well executed a brilliant twisty turny plot very much enjoy it really looking forward to it when it started i watched the first episode i was like yes come on reaches back and he's punching people in the face this is why i'm here this is television hallelujah second episode i felt quite similar you know i'm really enjoying it and it wasn't until about halfway through the season that my joy kind of leached away and honestly for the for the sort of the second half and certainly the last few episodes it was pure hate watch for me like it really was like i was like i am not enjoying this on any level but i am going to finish it because it's reacher and because i love the story and but i was just and i was trying to put my finger on why it didn't work for me and i think part of it is the nature of lee child's books which and i love the way he writes lee child who by his very admission he sits down i think it was in september each year he knocks them out in a very specific period of time while stoned off his face and like he admits this this is not in any way defamation this is by his own admission he has literally said it to me in person um and you know you were stalking him when i was stalking him now when he came into the office for a web chat um you know and they're very tight there's no fat on them they're really really lean and they get exactly where you need to go these tv adaptations do a lot of padding by necessity because you've got to fill out a whole season's worth and they introduce characters and they try and pad out characters and they definitely have to pad out dialogue because reacher is a famously laconic protagonist he doesn't speak an awful lot alan richland speaks a lot it's a tv show i get that that's not even a problem alan richland also we should say is perfect casting for this role the man was basically born jack reacher his birth certificate almost certainly says jack reacher on it his name isn't even really alan richland it's just jack fucking reacher no middle name however the problem with this is i think the subplots and the padding start to become a little bit overwhelming i think the writing is at best functional like the some of the dialogue is howlingly clunky and the performances are regrettable and i'm not even i'm not leveling this at alan richmond they are regrettable and i'm not leveling this at alan richmond in particular because alan richmond i actually think does do reach a very very well i think there are occasions when he is forced to execute very on the nose dialogue and it doesn't come out well i'm not sure that's really his fault that is i think more the dialogue's fault but it's the performances around him i just think feel quite subpar they feel slightly cheap and again maybe it's just me but the back of my head i'm just thinking 90s network procedural like it just it has that kind of quality to it and then again we have this direction problem like there are some you know huge set pieces this is a brilliant fight towards the end which has some really interesting ideas in it but there's no energy or verve to the direction it feels so workmanlike and it just doesn't it doesn't do justice to the material so i end up just feeling bogged down in a series that i feel should lift me up and you know and like i say i love reach i'm in one of the books for fuck's sake uh the affair incidentally which is the one star general james dyer who appears in that i should emphasize that he did not name that after me anyway i want to love this show i need because i asked him he signed my book and he put it says for the general lee child he signed the book for me um but you really you should be compromised because you lovely child i love this stuff so much oh no they do make changes to this and i kind of understand why i can't really talk about the changes because that really would spoil this particular story could you say roughly does it deviate from the book on an enormous level not really it's the details that change so like i said the countries involved are different for because it's a different time and i think that's the main reason why like things have moved on a little bit and i think they wanted to do something and i get why they did it and I have any problem with that to be honest with you I think it for me it's just the execution of this it just it doesn't feel slick it doesn't feel prestige and it feels more than anything for me just disappointing sometimes and so I walked away from this and I was really not happy now I should say two things one Amon Warman has also seen this season and he thought this was three stars he got what I was saying but he thought it was better than I did I was very much in the two-star camp uh Chris Hewitt did not watch this season at all because he never made it through the previous one and chris hewitt is the only person i know who's as big a fucking reach ahead as i am and he yeah he had the same problems i had with the previous season and didn't finish it if you loved the previous season i would say you will probably love this because it is more of the same but if you had similar problems that i did with the third season then this fourth one is not going to remedy that and honestly i have had screeners for neagly for some time and i haven't been brave enough to fire them up because for me the highlight of this show is reaching himself reach like reacher is it like he's the reason you come to this because for the same reason the books are pure wish fulfillment it's pure catharsis it's this man mountain he's super smart he's incredibly ripped he never goes to the gym he can beat up absolutely everyone he's funny he's funny he's all these things he's there is a joy in just watching him bulldoze his way through these things it is just joy so i do love these things i actually think that works really well i just think that not not to throw shade at nick santora except that's literally what i'm doing I just think it's being fumbled.

16:53I really do. I think, you know, I think a course correction is needed for the show. That is mine. And will they course correct? How many? So where are we? I think, I mean, it's a hit. It's a massive hit. So no, they will listen to nothing that I'm saying. And after a few recent, shall we say, disagreements with our audiences over certain shows, we'll get into that on the regular podcast as well. then people may not be listening to me anyway. But yeah, I was really, really disappointed with this. And I feel like without Reacher himself, although I think he is going to appear in it, I worry for Neely.

17:24But, oh, I said Neely, Neely. Can I just ask, right, when you, how many episodes are in this season? I want to say seven or eight. I can't remember. I watched it a while ago. Eight, sure. Right. Did you watch, did you what and and did you watch them like in a week did you binge how did you consume them oh good question i think i watched it all over a weekend okay you watched it all over a weekend and would you say your mood over that weekend was was good it was good when i started it was bad at the end largely because of this show okay was it pretty i mean it's been hot like forever at the moment so i'm just wondering if you were slightly affected by affected by your mood because it just it seems unlike you to not love this and i know you've made some valid points about why and some but i did have the same experience with the previous season as well in much the same way okay where i was excited when it started and then became less excited as i went along and then realized that while i want this show to be fantastic it's just fine do you think that if you did a re-watch that you would still have you would have the same i think it would be more acute actually because i think the re-watch would begin with season one which is genuinely great and I think I would probably find the juxtaposition between season one and this season very jarring.

18:43I watched the trailer because that was all that was available to me and I have to say I thought it looked basically just all the Reacher that we've had before. I was like... Yeah, I don't think... I don't have to say it. I was like, this is everything you want. It is the dad called explosions. But, you know, one-liners. Yeah, you can't... I mean, literally, you can't judge from the trailer, obviously. Absolutely, of course I can't, but I'm just saying that's all I had at hand. And it gave nothing away about the fact that it was like, you know. I would like you to watch the rest of this season, Boyle, if you can.

19:13I'll try. Did you finish the previous season? No. No. Should we take that as telling? Yeah, it is telling. It is telling, yeah. I know what you mean, yeah. I think it feels like, and this happens to a lot of, to be honest, probably to more streaming shows than we like to think. But I think what happens often is with these eight, 10 part shows of all kinds, really is that I start off really, really well. And they kind of like heavy loads the first episode or first couple of episodes. And then they kind of peter out a little bit in the middle. It's almost like everyone's like, and as you say, especially when you're adapting novels like this, whereby they, they is, there is padding out.

19:55There is introduction, new different characters. There is more dialogue than you necessarily need. One thing that struck me actually was that there's, there's weirdly not much music going on, which I thought was interesting in the first couple of episodes. That's one thing I noticed, that there are certain scenes where, like there's a scene in episode one where he is going into the lot, into a kind of evidence collection place, and he goes down into a basement, and he kind of walks from one place to another, basically, Reacher, right? And you'd expect there to be some kind of like TikTok-y music going on.

20:30Do you know what I mean? to kind of fill in the get and that wasn't and i was like listen that's weird and so and for me that's possibly indicative of the fact that they are settling into a pattern of not really bothering to make it special enough so i get what you're saying is my bottom line is i kind of understand what james is saying but it does that kind of thing doesn't bother me too much if i if it settles down into a 90s style you know to a show that as you describe it a 90s style kind of um regular network cop drama i'm not that bothered about it you know it doesn't because it's all about the story and the character and the dialogue and i and i get what you're saying is is there there are clunky elements of it the um the character played by kevin corrigan right he was the bad cop in the in the beginning yeah he i thought he was ridiculous and over the top and and i i no disrespect to the actor but miscast because the thing is that it's because it would that was that was again and this is what takes me back to some of that 90s network feel it's like it's a such an on just the way he looked the way he dressed everything about him was so unnecessarily on the nose there was no subtlety of any kind yeah i'm i just i i think it's always had that feel i'm i don't know if we're watching a completely different show i don't know that it's never not had that feel i think that's one of its mass appeals and that's that people you I don't, I don't know.

21:52I don't feel like this is, this is not a bingeable show for me. Like I wouldn't sit and binge this show, but when I've watched it, I'm like, I feel like you can dip in and out and it does have that kind of, it does have a bit of that procedural feel because you get, every episode has a certain amount of action, a certain amount of jokes, a certain amount of, you know, I don't know. It's a formula. Yeah, it's a formula. But I think they spent more time, money and effort on making it seem a little bit special in the first season. Okay, yeah. And I think they've done the same in the first couple of episodes of subsequent seasons.

22:24And then from the sound of it, when it hits the middle segment of these seasons, the last season and this one, that definitely happened with the last season, which is why I didn't finish it either. Okay. And so I think because it's such a big hit and because people love it anyway, I feel like almost subconsciously everyone working on the show is like, well, we don't need to do it. We need to keep it at this base level of decency, as in a decent effort, rather than make it spectacular. I think the first series visually felt more stylish than the subsequent season. Don't you think, sorry to interrupt you, but don't you think that there's a problem which you've alluded, losing the word to, in that what we find now is that everyone seems to have to commit to this eight episode, eight to ten episode run.

23:07And it does just, like if it was, you know, five or six massively action-packed. I think it would benefit enormously. It would benefit. And I think, yeah, we're getting these long runs and they're not needed. and then that's where the unnecessary padding comes in. Like I say, I haven't watched this one and I certainly haven't watched the whole series of it. So I don't know, but I do think it's, I don't know, what do you do if you have to have eight episodes, if you've committed to that already? I mean, no, you've hit the, what's the phrase? You've hit the... I've hit something. Nail on the head.

23:39Nail on the head. You've hit the nail on the head. You've nailed it. It is, yeah, they're all eight episode seasons, yeah. and no matter what no matter what the material is that they're adapting and so yeah i think i think that is a big part of the problem yeah i think also like if you look at amazon's stable of dadcore shows you know god knows jack ryan has had some like the most recent film for example has had some some bum notes but they don't as a rule feel cheap like they they're all pretty slick pretty well put together and they feel pretty prestige cross i didn't keep up with i didn't love the second season really like the first season but again like it is quite a slick show and I think this lacks that I genuinely do I think it needs a little bit more panache I need to think it needs to feel a bit more premium I do think you're absolutely right I think lose a couple of episodes make the like condense it make it tighter take a leaf or a page quite literally out of Lee Child's books like have no fat on these things people often say oh the Jack Reacher books they're shit aren't they no they are not under any circumstances they know what they're doing they do it really fun no people do they say oh it's not they're not great books are they they are a hundred percent brilliant at what they do and i remember lee child once saying you know i could do what my name is does but my name is couldn't do what i do and obviously people at the time like what the fuck but like there is some truth to it he can tell a yarn and he can tell it extremely well and it's so gripping and so compelling and it is you know on the on the one level quite basic wish fulfillment and it is kind of male fantasy to a certain extent and yet he's really good at it and he managed to fucking knock out tens of novels all doing the same thing and they are all brilliant so yep anyway anyway reacher season four watch it let me know what you think feedback let me know give me your reach your feedback i would uh i would i would like to hear if this is just me you know is this another widow's bay i don't think it is uh let me know oh no it's nothing like oh it's not a widow's bay no there's no way it's on prime video when poidy is it today it's out now yes yes it started yesterday okay fabulous right it is time to open the post bag triage it's the post bag i fear the post bag you should fear the post bag let me tell you why because i've been off for a few weeks from because the post bag has run amok so much so that i was triaging just even as we started this podcast i was still mid triage and there's a lot going on in this post bag can i just can i just say if any of it related to the vampiric backlash which i have been enduring several weeks now a lot of these messages have teeth yeah fangs in fact uh it turns out you really did kick a hornet's nest that the is after you big time i know because as i said on plus and on the main podcast while you're away if you listened i this i mean i've been in hiding i've had to be in hiding um and if anyone goes onto the youtube channel um i couldn't believe the the amount of people that were coming for me it was insane but i'll let you please please go on i'm just i'm ready for it well so do i want to go through this and tackle this particular thing now or should i leave this until the main podcast until a private moment where i've got some tissues and you know i think i think you know what because we're going to just because you are watching because you are watching interview the vampire i think let's save this i okay so i'm just gonna i was gonna reveal this tomorrow on the main podcast but i'm just gonna let you know i've boxed off season one okay okay so i think i think for everyone who wrote in calling for steph's head we're gonna put pin in this and we're going to pick it up again on monday's main podcast but let me know i've read your i've read your messages and i have heard you so are they okay give me just give me like give me the top lines i mean a lot of them are very long uh are they all explaining why i should love a little bit some of them are just absolutely furious yeah like wanting like actually like we're gonna kill her she's awful but actually there's there's there's lots to discuss there's lots to discuss uh but But I think in a broader conversation on Monday's podcast.

27:52So we'll put pin in that. And instead, we will pick up a different sticky wicket instead. There's no nice way of putting this. So I'm just going to not read any of the many messages. And instead, I'm going to read the one that has just come in via DM on Instagram. This comes from Robin. And Robin says, Do the guys on the pod want to revise their loving for Alley Cats, which has been roundly savaged by critics with one star and even Empire not going above two stars. It was predictable that Boyd would love it but is it time to admit Gervais is no longer funny? The reason I read that one out is that more or less encapsulates all of the many messages on this particular subject.

28:33Oh, I really liked it. The Empire Review signs off by saying about as funny as Nightmare Alley and about as visually compelling as Cats. It is at 25 % on Rotten Tomatoes. It's gone up. it was 17 actually yesterday and the metacritic rating is 39 in the red i'm gonna i'm what i will say about this is i think people for some reason were absolutely primed to want to hate this i think before it even started people were like they wanted to hate it i don't know why and like i said like i know people feel like boyd you know has a relationship with ricky but i was upfront about that to be fair but i have no relationship with him i have absolutely no relationship with ricky gervais and i still really liked it i and i thought um the animation was beautiful i i i'm really i'm really confused as why people have taken against this i don't understand i think it is funny at all no i'm not surprised the reason it that's what i'm saying i'm not surprised because i think people it's almost like people wanted to hate it and i'm i don't really know why it's interesting because there's definitely, like, Ricky Gervais is a polarising character, and I think there is definitely a political component to some of this.

29:44However, GB News apparently went to town on it, and The Telegraph gave it nought stars. GB News? Wait a minute. You're quoting GB News? Oh, sorry, Boyd. I know you are the GB News pundit, so I really shouldn't be taking words out of your mouth. But, you know, if you like to speak for them, you're welcome to. I refuse to go on GB News. I'm confused as to why we're even including them. No, I'm just saying because... Is TV reviewing... Certainly there is a... There's been a discussion around whether or not, because he's quite polarising as a comedian, people take against him just generally, right?

30:15So my point being is that the right-wing press has been equally scathing as the left-wing press. James, have you watched one? No, I have not watched it. I think we can all agree this is not for me, right? Like, 100%, I would not like it. I'd like you to watch one just so you could just... So that I could weigh in on the main... Maybe I will. Maybe I'll watch an episode and weigh on it. Just watch 15 minutes. Just watch one just to see because, I mean, you know, Ricky Gervais is like, you know, his stand-up is like the biggest thing on Netflix, isn't it? So to say he's not funny, I don't get it.

30:50I don't really get it. I think you might find it quite funny. I think you might like it. Yeah, genuinely. I mean, first of all, let me just say this. you know I hate it when you come in with wielding Metacritic scores it's like my least favourite thing that in itself the reliance and even the mentioning of those aggregating website things is I find in principle just wrong headed and stupid because I just don't care what I can come in with any I can find you good reviews of AliCats there are some good reviews from American outlets particularly I think American critics generally are much more favourable to him, the British ones.

31:31The Wall Street Journal gave it four stars. That was the most positive review. It got three and a half stars from Variety. Hollywood Reporter gave it two stars. Roger Ebert gave it two stars. So it's been mixed, but there have been positive ones, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So anyway, but genuinely, I am in the pocket of Ricky Gervais, obviously, which I would always, never try to hide. You always admit, you're always very upfront about that. But I like, it is, as he's said in many, many an interview, including our one that we had on this very podcast. It's a kind of like a fairly plot-free hangout show.

32:07It's a hangout show. With a bunch of guys who we know from Afterlife who are talking shit about stuff, and it's rambling, and it's like a podcast, and it's not really a heavily story. There are story arcs. There's a romantic story arc with one character. There's the little kitten find a home story arc. but intrinsically it's a different proposition to say afterlife and the office and other stuff because it's just you know it's it's indulgent it's unashamedly indulgent he's given himself you know netflix has given him the freedom to do this extremely rude but as i say fairly plot-free show which is just you just want to kind of you know just if you don't if you don't enjoy that level of um casual relaxed improvised rudeness then you won't like it sure so it was it's more that I don't I'm not going to go down the easy route of saying it's a political thing and people don't people who don't like it awoke I don't think that's the case at all but what I do think is that as a certain element of Ricky's comedy that's always been there um particularly in Afterlife I would say because there's a reason he's using the same core cast you know to do the voices in this show that is definitely he's definitely let that flood out to an extent he hasn't before because I think he felt the freedom of having it animated and about a bunch of cats And I think critically, it was never going to be a massive hit because of that.

33:28Intrinsically, it's almost like it's not the kind of show that is going to appeal to your average TV critic. And on top of that, there is a certain amount. There's definitely a backlash against him for various reasons. So that's my explanation. I am going to defend this based on the fact that I think, yeah, like I said, I think people were primed to not like it. I don't really understand that. I love Ricky Gervais as a comedian. I think but just to specifically talk about the show I think what we're it is a hangout show it's not trying to be anything other than that and it's also punctuated with some incredibly tender moments which I think are really well done and you know just even in like there's several cat deaths and I think they're done really well and the main character of Gus who is an absolute arsehole right and by his own admission total cunt right but he does he also he has layers and I think to have an animated character that also has layers in a show that essentially does have a very loose kind of plot and very sort of loose storylines I think is really entertaining and it's there only 15 minutes I just I think people maybe people are coming to this and they're expecting something completely different i don't know what they're expecting because it doesn't it does not profess it's never professed to be anything other than come and hang out with these fucking crazy cats for a bit and just it's just it's bans it's a little bit of bans it's a little bit of tender moments it's that's that's what it is and it is also you're right i agree with you but it's also an acquired taste and there's it never is it was never ever if you'd have said to me you know the night before the thing started what is the score going to be on metacritic I would have guessed.

35:13No, it's not a surprise. It's definitely not a surprise that people don't like it. But I genuinely do enjoy it. I think you and Kay, I think we reviewed it together. Kay liked it. Yeah. So it's like that. I hate that whole sense that, oh, there's this, obviously it's terrible, isn't it? Why aren't you admitting that it's terrible? Why don't you agree with me? Kind of. My least favourite form of criticism is, I hate this thing and you should too. And if you don't hate it, you're some kind of fucking moron. and I absolutely refused to acquiesce to that line. I agree. And that happened in the office.

35:44Someone who I will not name literally came up to me in the office and said, see, you know, you've been nice about Ali Ketch. Obviously, you like it because of Ricky Divo, etc. But it's obviously going to be shit, isn't it? Isn't there a heat quote in the marketing? I think one of your quotes is in the marketing. But right, I'm not trying to diminish you, Boyd, but just put Boyd aside for a minute, right? Kay and I both don't know Ricky. And in any way, and we both took it on face value for what it is and we both enjoyed it and i would be and i'm going to do a poll in the office when we're in tomorrow to see who's watching it because i have a feeling that the people on the ground are actually oh yeah it is a bit it is a bit funny because it's a bit like it's got that kind for me like i love phone shop um and those kinds of comedies so it's got that feel to it and definitely there's probably people who who just not in with the banter and they don't like yeah by the way the guy from phone shop is doing brilliant stuff in House of the Dragon on HBO.

36:42Oh is he? Who's the guy from phone shop? He's the main guy in phone shop he plays Ulf I think his name is Ulf the White I'm talking about the other guy from phone shop who's in Alleycats it's that certain type of comedy and not everybody gets on with that and I understand that but But I've got a feeling that more people on the ground like it. And as we know, people will get... Well, I mean, it's number one on the Netflix show. Yeah, people will like to say... That's not exactly an indicator of quality, but yes, I know what you're saying. No, but people love to say when they absolutely hate something.

37:15And people who generally are like, oh, this is good, won't say that, won't speak up. So, I don't know. I just... I don't know. It's funny. I think well argued, and I would agree with Boyd, that I think there's definitely a feeling that when someone hates something, there's an almost incredulity that other people don't share their hatred and i think you're right i think if you like a thing it shouldn't matter to you that other people hate it however i also think the reverse is not true and i use something like widow's bay as a case in point if i don't like something and then i find everyone loves it it does always make me think what have i missed like clearly there is something here that i have not found hence going back to widow's bay and okay I was wrong right and I think we've and we've had a few incidents of this recently I'm literally living that life now with the vampires I'm living it and the only reason I went back to it was because I was like okay this cannot be like this amount of people can't want me dead over something that's really shit I need to go back and see I'm going to mention another example which is can prove controversial particularly I'm going to say put a pin in that okay I know what you're going to say save it until Monday okay all right you know what he's going to say I know what he's going to say Save it until Monday I barely know what I'm going to say myself That we will get into Don't worry But James will you do me a favour You please just watch one And then just watch one Because they're only 15 minutes I'm sure I can spare you 15 minutes To be fair regardless of its quality I suspect I will not like it Because it's very much not for me But we will find out Have you got something against animated shows James It's hard to say Although that segues us quite nicely Into our animation education where we've had a number of interesting submissions here.

38:56I want people to know, I'm not going to get into that at this stage, but thank you. You have been heard. They have been filed away. Something is being done with these. You're not getting into. There are many things being kicked down the road. Things you're not getting into. But rest assured, rest assured, animation education will return very soon. Just bear with me ever so slightly. Steph, what I am going to do, having said that I'm not going to read out any of the vampire hate mail that you've had, the fang male if you will i'm gonna read out one one of them only one and this one which is from stewart uh differentiates from all the others in a key way okay does does he use the words fucking moron because that that's really big i feel like that's overused now well let's find out hi pilot tv team i loved both seasons one and two of interview the vampire and was already in the tank for season three but hearing the divisiveness of the vampire stat review made me intrigued i am usually aligned with James on most reviews, but also quite frequently agree with Steph.

39:55So who knew what I would end up thinking? Oh, I'm so interested. So I watched the first three episodes, and Steph is a thousand percent correct. Let's ignore that mathematical blunder that that's not possible. Any of the subtlety from seasons one and two is gone. It feels like it's sending itself up. It's no longer sexy. The songs are awful. The voiceover feels tacked on. And worst of all, it's boring. And yet all the reviews think it's a masterpiece. empire says as moving as ever yes says stewart moving me to sleep so steph i am so glad you reviewed this show because even though you hated every second of it and the haters have come for you you've at least made me feel like i'm not crazy stewart oh stewart thank you no he's made me feel like i'm not crazy and also i'll get into why i'm more disappointed about the stat having boxed off season one of interview the vampire but i'll get into that yes i agree with that so i you, Stuart, as well.

40:48We will continue this discussion on the regular podcast, Fear Not. Thank you for that, Stuart. And, of course, for everyone else who was, shall we say, slightly less glowing in their feedback of old Stevel. Just delete them. I don't want to hear them. I don't want to hear them. I literally had somebody message me last night saying, just keep your head up. Don't worry. Thanks so much. One of my Insta friends, Ben, was like, just don't listen to them. It's okay. You'll be okay. I think the worst part of this, of course, is the way YouTube works because the podcast goes up on YouTube it gets pulled into people's algorithms and because Interview with the Vampire or the Vampire Stat was in the title of the episode and because it was a picture of Sam Reid it got pulled into the feeds of the stat heads and then they went to the comments section and it all kind of went to shit.

41:33They went to the comments section and then I got so scared I went into the comments section to just say no I'm going to go and watch it and they still kept going and I was like okay they just want my blood literally they want my blood. It's a very particular fandom that one is and you don't want to mess with them. Yes, yes, it really is. Anyway, we have a message here from Jennifer, who has issues with meat. Good morning. Listening to the Pile TV podcast about Ted Lasso, poor Steph. First, she's hiding from Vampire Lestat fans I don't watch, so I was just amused by her rant. But she's going to hear from barbecue fans next.

42:07She said that the Lasso gang were eating Texas barbecue. I think you'll find they were eating Kansas City barbecue, which is the whole another kettle of fish. and people take this shit very seriously. I'm from the Mountain State, so I don't have a strong opinion, but in British terms, it's like confusing Cornish versus Devon ways of eating scones. I didn't even know that was a thing. Well, one is cream first and one is jam first. How do you know that? Anyway, okay. Finally, back on your discussion of visiting filming locations, if James ever wants to visit Missoula to see Yellowstone locations, give me a jingle.

42:41I roll my eyes about the show because its take on Montana is ludicrous and its geography is on par with Thor getting off the wrong tube stop. My family has lived along the Madison River since my great-great-great-grandfather went west from Detroit, Michigan in 1864 to make his fortune after gold was found in Alder Gulch. He ended up running a general store in Virginia City. I've got his brother-in-law's diary about the foundation of the family ranches in Jeffers, Montana. So there are my credentials for disliking the Yellowstone universe. Oh, you were totally allowed to. But able to give advice on where to visit in Montana.