PLUS Scarpetta

0:07Welcome to Pilot Plus, your extended guide to every show that matters. and today we're in Steph land because we're tackling a forensic series specifically Scarpetta based on the books by Patricia Cornwell which stars Nicole Kidman as Kay Scarpetta forensic pathologist in the present and in the past so something for Boydie as well because I know how much he enjoys that particular device have either of you read the Patricia Cornwell books yes I have see I thought this would be the other way around Steph I was convinced that you'd be like a Scarpeta truther. Steph's like a newcomer to really, I mean, she professes to be the world's leading expert on crime, but really I'm going back, I'm going back decades.

0:46I don't really, I don't really, I don't really, do you know, I love Lorenzo Carchaterra books. Those are the crime books that I really like. So Sleepers, that kind of thing, right? Like I've read everything he's ever written. But yeah, I haven't read these. You're boycotting, Scarpeta, it's two, it's women, isn't it? You're boycotting the women, women wrote it, women adapted it, women starved it. we're in producing yeah yeah instead of being a misogynist oh no oh my god I'm in the manosphere on International Women's Day week as well oh no what is wrong with me you'll be pleased to know that this is one example one of my many examples that I mention often on the podcast of when in the days when I reviewed books for Simon Mayo's show on Radio 5 Live oh my god you did this in front of Patricia Gormel we did she was on down the line from LA or wherever she lives yeah she was down the line awful yeah but I really liked I think she's a great writer actually you know in the context of this kind of genre.

1:39She's really good. And the characters were interesting as well. So, yeah, I really liked what I... I think we did two Scarf Hedewicks in my kind of six or seven years in that role. Six years? Seven years I did that. Bye. Wow. Yeah, I know. Anyway, yeah, so I have read some of the novels, a couple of the novels. Okay. So we've gone from some to two. I think it's two. I think it's two, yeah. I think I've read the first one of these, and I've read, I think, the first of Kathy Rice, who also did these kind of forensic pathologist type with Temperance Brennan with her, with a female lead. But you hate this stuff.

2:12Yeah, because you hate this stuff. So why would you read it? No, no, no. So see, what you're confusing there is what you love, which is true crime. And I think you don't like this because it's fake crime. Whereas I like fake crime, but I have no interest in true crime. That is absolutely true. I find fictional crime quite hard, quite hard to deal with. It's not really enough. It's not nasty enough for you. Yeah, I like it to be... But saying that, most fictional crime novels are grounded in reality and based on true crime. So I say that. And a lot of people who buy the magazine which I edit say that they get a lot of their ideas from the true crime.

2:52They get a lot of their ideas from true crime. As in what the people who... Are your readers who you are grooming to become serial killers is what you're saying? Excuse me, Linda LaPlante has a stack of Crime Monthlies in her toilet, she told us. Yes, so just saying. We can confirm Linda LaPlante is not, unless we've heard different a serial killer. She's not a serial killer that's everywhere else. No, she's not. She's an author. Okay. Yes. Okay, that's good. And she subscribes to Criminologist magazine, which is, of course, your public reference. That's good. God. Now, this begins, we should say, with a mutilated naked female corpse, which is a trope Boyd and I have very regularly rolled our eyes at because it's gratuitous and it's unnecessary and I wasn't thrilled about it.

3:35But look, that aside, Boydy, did you manage to get past the dual timeline shenanigans? Did they, in fact, enhance your experience? How did you feel? I got past it, but I would say it would still not have been my preference. I just think it didn't need that element to it, the jumping back and forth between. So the kind of idea behind it is, as far as I understand it, that, you know, she had a really important case that defined her career as a famous medical examiner, forensic detective, whatever you want to call her. She's the chief medical officer. Thank you. Let's get that right. Thank you. Thank you, Steph.

4:14Thank you. And this is supposed to, you know, so we get to see the case that made her famous and, you know, blah, blah. And you get to see literally at various points that are cut from something that happened all those decades ago with almost exactly the same scenario happening decades later. And, you know, they have some quite clever edits, cuts to emphasise that. But I did find it a bit distracting. and I think and I was reading some interviews with people involved like Jamie Lee Curtis Jamie Lee Curtis was involved in the creation of the whole series right she actually got she was the one who got engineered getting the rights back from right okay interesting and she plays Dorothy Scarpetta yeah sister we'll get to her we'll get to her don't worry anyway anyway she's an exec producer and in this case her credit is actually means something because she was the one she drove the whole idea really and amazingly the rights to these books weren't with anyone when she got in touch with Patricia Cornwall and she was like yeah no one else wants the rights no one else cares yeah you have them so and then and then reading again creatively they were like they seem to be obsessed from what the interviews I've read making this different to other similar crime procedures crime thrillers and one of the ways they thought to do that was the two timeline thing but I just think it's a bit I'm really interested this often happens with me with novels that do this whereby there's one you prefer to the other.

5:40There's one timeline story you prefer to the other. And I get the idea of filling in what's happened to her and the sister and et cetera. And that's fine. But I did prefer the present day narrative, I have to say. Oh, lovely dog. Interpretation. You know the dog doesn't understand, right? Yeah. Nancy is absolutely against what you're saying. She loves a dual timeline. Yeah. she's saying she's saying 100 % she's commenting she's just furious that the schnauzer didn't win best in show you know what we're going to leave all this in listen to say when I said it's not this because Steph was not like talking to the she was mouthing to the dog like to stop barking so you're not just suspecting your dog to be able to understand English but to lip read as well I'm giving her my stop barking face oh okay that's not working is it I mean that's for sure sorry I'm really sorry okay that's good to know I mean you must have had I don't know well maybe you didn't i had an incredible moment of relief because when i saw it said 28 years earlier uh i was also first of all i was thinking that's not the danny boy film that i'm familiar with but uh but when it said uh when it said i was looking at i was like i was 100 expected to see a de-aged nicole kidman turn around and when it's actually rosie mckewan i honestly breathed the sigh of relief i was like thank god for that i know what you mean but even then i'm like you've got nicole kidman playing this character i mean for fuck's sake don't cut to someone else playing 2080s previously.

7:05Who needs that? I just thought it was, so I fundamentally do think that was a misguided decision. I think it would have been much better just to play it straight, to adapt, because this, you know, if you want to adapt the first novel, do it. If you want to adapt a more recent novel, do it. Don't mix them all together in a morass. It's just distracting. Yeah, because this is, isn't it? It's the first novel post-mortem and then it's also one of the other, it might be Body of Evidence, I'm not sure, so it's two novels that actually makes it into this. So that I didn't, I didn't, I mean, it didn't ruin it, would have, if they'd have come to me, I would have said no, no, no.

7:36I can't believe they didn't if I wanted to. Yeah, me neither. I've read two of the books already, so you know. But that's not the problem. That is not the problem. The problem with this show is, it's derailed by the most fucking out there performance by Jamie Lee Cursis you could ever see. And it's like she's decided to transplant her character from the bear into this show without any justification because as far as I'm aware as well, by the way, this character of the sister, Doroth, isn't even that prominent in the books. I stand to be corrected by fans of her, but as far as reading up on it, and from what I remember from the two books I read, she's not a major character in the books.

8:18But in this, which mixes, as well as mixing the past with the present timelines, it also mixes the domestic with the professional. So you get as much drama, literally you're at them shouting at each other, whether it's in the home or it's in a cemetery by the way yelling at each other at the top at one point they literally physically they're about to physically fight and you know what it reminded me of Steph I think you'll get as well is you know in Curb Your Enthusiasm every time Larry David physically fights someone and it's like it's the funniest thing because it's so ridiculous like it might be it might be what's his name from Cheers you know or you know these people people in his life who are friends physically grappling with them on the floor I do enjoy the physical comedy of friendships.

9:02Literally Kidman and Curtis at one point they're practically grappling with each other. I'm like, fuck this. This is insane. And it does feel like Jamie Lee Curtis as executive producer felt like she had to, she wanted to give herself a major role. Fine. But she's going so bonkers. It's such a demented performance. It's such a preposterous character that you think no one had the kind of balls or whatever to say, maybe dial it down just a little bit. it's beyond comic relief, isn't it? I suppose. Honestly, it really is. But also, I think at one point, I think it is comic relief. And bear in mind that the director, by the way, is David Gordon Green, who David Gordon Green mostly, in recent years, directed some of the most broad comedies on TV.

9:46Yeah. Which I'm sure James loves. I'm not a fan. No. Like, The Righteous Gemstones, Eastbound and Down. He's celebrated with those guys, like making ridiculous, kind of ludicrous comedies, which I quite enjoy. So there are scenes in this, which are verging on comedy. And actually, some of the dialogue, to give it credit, some of the actual dialogue is pretty good, I think. I think it's slightly more ratcheted up and interesting, the script, than it might be for a lot of this type of show. It's not a butterfly. You know, it's not a show that is completely dull and routine and unoriginal and nothing special about it at all.

10:23It's not that. Do you remember the butterfly, that terrible show we reviewed with Russell T. Davis, right? which has become a byword in my world, by the way, for a mediocre show. This is trying its best to be different and special, but along the way, it's just got this derailment of underperformance by her. I don't want to labour the point, but every time she arrived on screen, I was like, oh God, it's like, it got really tense and not in a good way, not in a like, I'm watching a thriller way. I'm watching the domestic scenes way and they are fucking insane. So apart from that, I really enjoyed it.

10:54I mean, Nicole Kidman is great. It's weird. because it is a fairly formulaic show, but it just so happens with everyone played by an A-list, Ariana DeBose, Bobby Cannavale, like Simon Baker, all these people are like really big stars who all command, by the way, who could all have a lead role in their own show if they wanted to. They're all playing second fiddle, not just to Nicole Kidman, but to bonkers Jamie Lee Curtis. That's all I'd say. Okay. Wow. The Jamie Lee Curtis fan has really bothered you, hasn't it? I mean, am I right? It is a lot, isn't it? Well, hold on. Okay. Okay. Here I go. Right.

11:32Okay. Firstly, I'm just going to set my story up. I love this show. I love this show. I watched five episodes. Oh, my God. Well, you know when we review something and then I – this is – when I really like it, I just keep going. No, fair play to you. I just keep going. It opens very old Hollywood, actually, which I really enjoyed. It's got a touch of the sugars about it. You know, Sugar, the detective show with Colin Farrell, which I love. I really enjoyed that. I thought the soundtrack, it's kind of classical. I think they've got a mix of lots of things that are right up my street. Yes, okay. Jamie Lee Curtis's character is ample bosomed and used as a comic device, for me, to great effect.

12:19I really enjoy her. I love the bear. I love her as the mum in the bear. I actually thought that the juxtaposition of the sister character Dorothy with Kay Scarpetta's just relentlessly uptight nature was key to my enjoyment, which I know you completely disagree with Boyd, but I loved it. And actually, every time she was going to have a scene, I enjoyed her even more. There is a hilariously, this is not a spoiler, it's a hilariously comical scene where she goes to visit her sister at her offices and she's confronted with all these dead bodies and it is physical comedy. And I loved it. I also, again, would say I'm a fan of East Band and Down.

13:07So, I also really liked the dual timelines, thought the dual timelines worked well. After I got over in the first episode, spending a lot of my time going, she is so well cast as the young Nicole Kidman. Isn't she? She's brilliant. She just is so well cast. After I just, and I really bedded down with it, I think actually the dual timeline serves really well to underpin the nature of the relationships of the characters in the present day. Yes, they're all, yes, so many of them have got this big screen energy and there is a part of you that thinks you could have one of these and one of these people one of these actors in this and it would be great but to have this ensemble cast of of a-list actors is a joy I loved it the other thing I want to mention is I know that I absolutely destroyed Silent Witness when we did um the 156 ,000 series of Silent Witness um this gets right many of the things that I had problems with the camera the camera shuttering I think you'll remember I didn't enjoy that in this I thought it was it was exactly the right amount um the extreme autopsy scenes were poetic and they they are extreme and you see a lot and um they're very graphic uh I think Nicole's sort of narration of it I also really really liked I love an old case so I think where we've had things like Gone where recently under Saltmarsh where they're alluding to an old case and you see them the traditional devices they're looking on their they're looking on their computer and it flashes up the headlines from an old case I like that you're getting this deeper deeper dive into it and you're actually seeing what happened with the old case that's haunting now haunting case at Scarpetta so I think that dual timeline really works to great effect and I just like to say one One of my favourite lines, you mentioned dialogue, Boydie, is you've never seen a cock or a mirror you didn't like.

15:07And having those kinds of amazing lines in it, I just think it's really enjoyable. I think people are going to like this in the way that people liked. I'm going to say it, his and hers. It's not his and hers, but it is enjoyable. Boyd is literally like, Boyd's. He recoiled when you said that. Bemused face. It's enjoyable. It is really, it's exciting. I don't disagree with that. It's more the comparison with his and hers that's just threw me. I think it's got a bit of his and hers. When I say his and hers, it's a bit like some people might go, like you, Boyd, this is lunacy. Jamie Lee Curtis is demented.

15:43She's the mad aunt that's in the middle of this, just like being crazy. But I don't think that takes away from the enjoyment. In the same way that with his and hers, everyone was like, this is a little bit mad, but it's actually really enjoyable. I think that has a bit of this element. Yeah, I don't. Look, I actually said in my rant about her performance, I really enjoyed everything about it, apart from the two things, the timelines and her performance. The thing about her performance was so, I think it's as much the problem with the writing of that role, because she doesn't ever, well, from what I've seen, I've only watched the first two, there isn't enough annoying her to send her into this paroxysms of fury.

16:22So, for example, her daughter, her poor daughter, whose wife... Recently bereaved. Recently bereaved, right. Jamie Lee Curtis just gets hysterical at her for no reason whatsoever. And I just think they needed to ratchet up the script to match what she clearly wanted to do with this role. For me, and that's what's missing really, is why is she so fucking furious with everyone? And at the same time, you know, this kind of slightly cliched idea that she's, you know, after men you know she's a man eater I think in fact she's literally called that at one point in the show and most of my issues are just with that role I genuinely did enjoy everything else about and I do think some of the lines some of the dialogue was really was fun was particularly fun and they're trying they're trying their best I'm going to say that thing that I say every time I've watched like five more episodes of something that you guys have right how many did you watch Boyd?

17:15I said two two okay two sorry right so I would say her character development is extraordinary and you do get to understand why she's obviously both of them have had early childhood trauma which I can't remember which episode that's sort of uncovered in um which as much yeah yeah so they've both had an early childhood trauma and that's why one of them has gone one way the other one's gone the other and but but you do unravel why Jamie Lee Curtis's Dorothy Dorothy is is so kind of demented and so kind of bosom thrusting you do get to that and also that there is another element um of this which i haven't seen addressed in um shows to this effect which is a generation of an ai character in it um i don't want to give too much away i mean that was interesting yeah that was that was interesting in the way they did that when they when you said they did it because they wanted to do something new there is an ai character in this and again like i said props they're doing all kinds of things to make it feel different they've thrown a lot at it haven't they yeah they really have i'm interested where james lands on yes me too on the is is jamie curtis deranged debate the derangement maybe wasn't the issue for me i think what pulled me out of the show was the fact that this is literally her character from the bear transposed into another series and I felt like if I'd been Jamie D Curtis I'd have maybe pushed back on that because I'm like I've played this character this is literally the same character why am I playing this character again and the matter like everything about her was that so weirdly I found it quite distracting because it just made me think of the bear all the time um so I found it a quite overpowering performance that's not so I didn't enjoy the scenes where her and Nicole Kidman are just bellowing at each other like genuinely and as you say some of the best lines are in those sequences they're fun scenes but it just it just took me out the story a little bit yes that's what you're saying it took me out of it it just took me out of the show yeah the the two timeline thing i think rosemary queuing great casting yes uh i genuinely the thing that threw me was jake cannavale bobby cannavale's son playing him and i was just like it just was weirding me out a little bit because he's almost like a caricatured version of his dad so i found that quite distracting but i didn't i don't mind the two timeline things i think for me the thing that sat not wrongly with me because i didn't dislike this i actually quite enjoyed it but i was expecting something slightly different and i think from the first scene where you see that body i had mayor of east town in my head and i couldn't get away from that because mayor of east town is incredibly cinematic beautifully paced artistically constructed it is like it is a hundred percent like peak tv like it is very prestige this on the other hand lacked a certain artistry like don't get me wrong i thought the story is actually pretty good and i'm interested to see where it goes but it doesn't have that really cinematic quality that something like mayor of east town has and that's not what i expected from this i thought oh it's a prime video show it's based on patricia cornwell books probably cost a fortune to get the rights you know it's got jamie d curtis it's got nicole kibman it's got ariana debout's got great people in it weirdly i expected it to feel slicker i expected to have more of an apple sheen to it do you know what i mean to feel a little bit more it was actually it felt a little bit not quite network but also not a million miles from so what i'm i suppose what i'm essentially doing is that i'm imposing my tv snobbery on this show is what i'm doing i totally disagree with you i think that i don't think it wants to be that i don't think it's trying to be that either um yeah god that's so snobby james honestly it really is This isn't, and also I don't agree with you.

20:56I think it does have, it has a cinematic quality to it. Maybe the problem that you two have is maybe is trying to throw too many devices at you at once. Yeah, I don't think it's not going to be Mare of Easttown. It's not, I think Mare of Easttown is so driven by Kate Winslet's character. And this is not, this has got too many sort of dual leads in it. Because this isn't just Nicole Kidman's show, is it? It really is, Bobby, as much. Jamie Lee Curtis this is based on the case Carpetta Books right and there's like what 30 of them and they are all centered on that character so it is quite character led but they have made the decision for whatever reason not to make this show focused solely on her which is the problem which you think is the problem I think it's the problem also I'd say I'm not saying this is the case but it just gives it the feel that decision gives it the feel that oh Kidman was too busy to do you know entire episodes carrying the character so we had to bring in the parallel time so another actress could pay her half the time it literally felt like that for me I have no idea whether there's any truth to that but it's just weird to get as I say to get Nicole Kidman playing this iconic character you know at the front and centre of dozens of books and then have half of it played by another do you know what anyway just quickly I totally agree with James about the and I hate to say it about the about the cinematic the non-cinematic nature of it I told you and I think what you're getting at is that I think that's the thing about HBO shows, task was the same, right?

22:25They reach, HBO shows reach a certain level of technical and cinematic excellence that I don't think Amazon Prime video shows necessarily do. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. And in this case, I don't think they did. I think it does feel like a quite, visually and cinematically, it feels like a procedural, rather than, and in fact, I would say, Yeah, almost, halfway. I would, furthermore, I would say it's actually a non-snobbish thing to say because I think that for example The Capture which we reviewed in the main thing which is just brilliant you're right I think that's much more stylish and cinematic than this is and I think some British network shows don't get the credit for actually being much more technically impressive than say this because there's so many shows being churned out by the streamers so in this case I think this is fine in that sense but not outstanding at all Okay but does this need to be like that?

23:18No it doesn't No So it's not going to It's a crowded field, I think is perhaps it. But you know, perhaps I am looking for something that just isn't there and that's not what they're trying to do. But it is a crowded field. So I think, you know, production excellence, I think does does carry some weight. It's not no substitute for a great story and great characters. 100%. Just in doing this, and I'd be interested to see how this goes forward. Like I said, I don't remember the book. I read it decades ago, but I can't remember if the dual timelines in the book. I'm only assuming it is. part of me almost thinks that if you're going to introduce a character like Case Garpetra and you want readers to bind that character, having a single person embodying that character and getting to know her might be an easier way in.

23:54And then as an interesting season two wrinkle to then introduce a dual timeline with the younger Kay, I think maybe that might have been a better way into this, to give you more time with Nicole Kidman, to give you more time with that character to maybe understand her. Anyway, that was just my thought. I had enough time with Nicole. Like, I just think you get enough time in a little girl. And the thing about Kay Scarpetta is actually she's not that complicated as an individual. And that's one of her characteristics. So I don't think you need to spend loads of time. She's had early childhood trauma.

24:27Her career trajectory took her to become chief medical officer. You don't need loads and loads of explanation. I think I literally could not disagree with you two more on this. I think people will enjoy it. This is like Rooster. Actually, Boyd, sorry, you said you liked Rooster in the end. It's like Rooster, or possibly Vladimir. Vladimir's terrible. Scarpetta, then, which lands on Amazon Prime Video on March the 11th, which is, or was, yesterday. Yes, it was yesterday, but it was embargoed. Okay, it is time to move away from forensics and forensically dig through the post bag.

25:11triage. It's the post bag. Okay, I have the post bag in front of me. I am now going to wade through all manner of goodies are in here. I'm going to go back to some of the older messages we've got on here, which have been neglected for a few weeks, and see what we have here. This is a message from Morgan. And this, I think, is aimed at you, Steph. Oh, God. Well, sorry, Morgan. Morgan says, Hi, guys. Now that Steph is job sharing with Kay so as to keep the ratio of bald, white, middle-aged men to women as two to one, i can send this one that i've had in the back of my mind for a while now as it's very much one for her expertise are there true crime events that are too terrible to ever get the true crime treatment either as a standard documentary or as a drama series i ask us last year there was the death of a very high profile sex offender in prison who was evil personified and though i have zero interest in his story being told i knew i know true crime does showcase and tell the stories of despicable individuals but is there a line that won't be crossed or will we eventually see some dramatized accounts and or documentaries on this very individual once enough time has passed and is any true crime tv show possible if you can find a story to tell that doesn't shine a light on the perpetrator for example the film she said focused on the journalists and victims of harvey weinstein but he is only shown in the background or as a voice p.s i've deliberately not mentioned the name of the individual but if you are easily triggered don't google their crimes and sorry sorry i said I said this was from Morgan.

26:34This is from John. John Morgan. I apologise, John. We're not really on close enough terms that I can just call you by your surname. That is a great question and very timely because one of the cases that I'd say could not be covered is that we've had the recent death of a child killer. I don't really want to mention his name because I also think, put it this way, I've covered that case in my magazine and I have omitted photographs of the victims because I think that is something that just will not happen it will not happen it's too awful it's too it's it's a British crime that I just cannot see will ever get that treatment and um what we do what I make sure we do is we are very very careful not to picture victims and perpetrators together and that's a conscious decision and it's very much based on the British public's appetite and also sometimes things are just they are just too awful which I know sounds strange with me saying that actually I don't really enjoy fictional crime but I will also say that lots of fictional crime is rooted in true crime so yeah there definitely are cases it's hard to go into the cases without naming the people and I don't really want to name the people but I think we all know the person who was just murdered in prison.

27:59You know, by the way, there was a drama about that case. Was there? Yeah, absolutely. Which drama was there? Was there? It was called Maxine. Oh, yes, but that was Maxine. That wasn't based on, that wasn't so much him, was it? No, he was. He's in it. He's literally depicted. Yeah, it's about the whole crime. The folk was slightly more, but it was dramatising that. It was all about that case. I don't remember that. Yeah, it wasn't very good, but from memory. It was a, yeah, it was Channel 5 drama. There you go. Well, I don't want to be disparaging about Channel 5, but I would just say Channel 5 are the channel.

28:34That's normally my job. Well, Channel 5 are the channel that will go down those routes that other channels will go. Okay, I'm going to modify that and say I don't think any sort of well-respected TV. No, I don't think that's the issue. What do you think is the issue? I remember at the time Channel 5 said, you know, because they did come in for a lot of criticism, and it was their version was it's not about the actual crime it's about what how did the particularly Maxine hence being named after but absolutely portrayed her relationship with him the other murderer and it was all about that's what we're exploring how do you get to that point in life where you're this person which is valid so it didn't it tried to avoid depicting the crimes or whatever but but what but my point is I don't think there is any anything literally any crime that it would not be the subject of a true crime drama.

29:23Honestly, I think there have been so many examples now of, it's just a matter of how long you take to tell the story, really. That is a really good point. I think the other thing is, is the British viewing public will very happily watch overseas an American crime, crimes being depicted, being dramatised. I also, we also do cover mainly American crimes in the magazine because, it sounds terrible, but they're more palatable to a British audience because they are so, we are so removed from that. Yeah. And obviously there's a lot of, I don't really ever watch things about British crimes because I find that quite, quite, I don't know.

30:07I just. Well, it's close to home, isn't it? It's too close to home. and actually one we you know one which is a huge british case which is the two boys that murdered the toddler from the shopping they again i'm purposely not named and and that was made into dramatization wasn't it with the interviews with the two boys so yeah you're you know you're you're probably right there is there's always they find some kind of artistic way to do these you know these dramatizations and then it somehow passes but yeah there's definitely a cutoff point for me. The sixth commandment guy is trying to get out of prison now isn't he?

30:42Have you ever watched Do You Know About That Case? The sixth commandment? Oh my god. I watched The sixth commandment. Yeah. No I watched The sixth commandment. Anyway sorry this has taken up a lot of time but it is a great question. It is a great question. Yeah. All I know is I will not be watching any of them because I do not enjoy true crime. No. Question here from Cameron and Cameron says all the talk of bums on this week's episode made me think. Have you seen season two of The Pit yet? there was one episode that has to be seen to be believed. In Australia, it was the only rated R episode, or one of the only rated R episodes.

31:16Not sure what it's like in the UK, but it's strange when episodes of one TV show can be rated M, M, A, or R. But it's my favourite show at the moment and makes me want to re-watch ER. Impressed that Noah Wiley has been writing episodes. Are there any other Noah Wiley or John Wells shows worth tracking down? There's a certain John Wells show that I can certainly recommend to you. If you've ever heard of a little show called The West Wing, I do suggest you give it a watch. I've heard about this scene in the... I haven't found time, unbelievably, to watch season two yet of The Pit. We have got screeners, thanks to HBO Max, starting soon.

31:50But I heard about that. Do you know about what that scene is? I do. I think the term is disimpaction. Yes. But also what I read is there's a credit to the actor whose butt gets special billing. Well, Boydie, we had a message from someone. God, I can't remember where it was. I think it was on Blue Sky. Yeah. And they were saying, Boydie, Boydie, Boydie, people under no circumstances in the interview are ever asked to show their bits or the whole production will be shut down. Yeah, that's not now. That's in 2012. I'm going way back. I'm saying maybe that wasn't the case. I agree with you, Boyd. I think back in the day they were like...

32:26They were like, yep, bums out. That's it. Yeah. Good God. I don't even know how we got onto that. Right, okay. But yes, I'm looking forward to it because we're only, what, like a couple of weeks away now from The Pit, seasons one and the beginning of two arriving on HBO Max. I haven't even watched a single episode of The Pit because neither of you have helped me out with that. It's outrageous. We didn't buy you a flight to America so that you could watch it. Yes, exactly. It is all available now on the HBO. Yes, to be fair, HBO have given us the whole first season now at this point. Yes, but I don't have the same access as you, remember, because you two are like VIPs.

32:59Sorry, Steph. Who refuse to help me. We will not assist. Message here from John. John Armstrong, and John wishes to continue the conversation we had about meta scenes in TV shows. He says, love the pod. Wanted to add to the discussion of TV shows being all meta and referencing other shows. Really enjoyed all the examples you gave. Hadn't heard of some of them, but I do have some to add. Some new and one old. The new ones come towards the end of How to Get to Heaven from Belfast. The best one was film-related, where the line is, your name is Norman and you own a motel? Which I remember, that was funny.

33:30but later Saoirse Monica Jackson is seen standing under a huge mural of Derry Girls this is actually true it's quite distracting because it's quite an extended scene where her character is having a conversation and behind her is that famous mural of the Derry Girls on the wall and I was just like yeah I mean that's clearly you and both of them that was a little bit weird then the fictional Saoirse played by Roisin Gallagher goes to her show's writer room to be told repeatedly how well Jesse Armstrong runs his writer's room and he does excellent lunches that is good that is good it is and obviously recalling he recalls from your interview with Lisa McGee when she says you drew up on her own experiences I think it's safe to say that was probably one of them and then the old one comes from the first season of NCIS at one stage Sasha Alexander asks Mark Harmon what the character Ducky Mallard looked like when he was younger he's played by David McCallum Mark Harmon replies with the words Ilya Kuriekin who is a character from The Man from Uncle yep classic so there we go classic have you been Have you been back watching NCIS, Boydie?

34:31No, no, but The Man From U.N.C.L.E. Not NCIS. I was brought up on The Man From U.N.C.L.E., not NCIS. Not that bullshit. The Man From U.N.C.L.E. was brilliant. Take that back right now. NCIS is not bullshit. We've got a message here that may be from Taylor Sheridan, but it says his nom de plume is Ella Manning here. Hi, or just listen to your review of Under Saltmarsh and Steph mentioned Kelly Riley in Yellowstone. In this, Kelly plays one of the most iconic characters ever. this mayor of kingstown and landman are three of the best tv series in the last few years taylor sheridan's character writing and development is phenomenal you guys need to get in the taylor universe did steph enjoy yellowstone steph has not seen yellowstone no so i but what i'd said is because i was right so liam watched it has been watched it and i so i kind of vicariously watched it because i know loads of things that have happened because he was watching it and i was like in the room and our whole like we just have one of those open plan places where the kitchen's in the, you know, everything's in one place.