PLUS The Bear Finale (and spoiler discussion). With guest Lionel Boyce

27:25Yeah. Yeah. Before we moved to ITV. Yeah. I see. I can use you to get to her. Clearly, that's the way forward. I mean, I guarantee you she won't remember me. She'd be like TV's Boyd Hilton. I know him. But yeah, so I think podcasting is a big thing. And also TV more than film for the same reason. Yeah. Because you see these people week in, week out, and you do feel that you know them. I mean, I definitely get more, if the word can be starstruck, around TV people than film people. Yeah, same. I bumped into, this is a true story. It's going to be good. I bumped into, just about a week ago, Amanda Abington, right?

27:59Amanda Abington, who has been on the pod in the early days. You remember, James? Yes, and she's been on the Empire pod as well. And she's been on the Empire pod. Fantastic actress. Sherlock, et cetera, fame. And it was in M &S in London Bridge, right? and um and i kind of we looked at each other and i went oh hi and i had headphones on so by the way after listening to a podcast she was like really busy running around getting shopping she's oh hi boy and then i get honestly neither of us knew what to do from that point do you i was thinking do i engage her and chat about what she's up to now and do it is she want does she want that i had a real moment momentary crisis of someone who i know quite well i've hosted quite a lot of q a's with her, going back to the Sherlock days.

28:43And, you know, she's kind of like, I've messaged her on social media, she's messaged me on social media, but in the end I just went, see you later, nice to see you. She went, yeah, nice to see you. And that was that. But it was a real crisis moment. In your brain it was like, do I engage, do I engage? Abort, abort, abort! Exactly. Yeah, it was really difficult. So it was a specific level of, like, she's not a friend, but she's definitely an acquaintance. She definitely knows, yeah, all those complications arose in those few seconds. That's horrendous. That's like, are you work colleagues? Are you like, you know, work colleagues?

29:15Are you friends? Oh God, that's made me feel a bit sick. Oh Lord. I think the other parasocial thing is musicians because I think people have such an emotional connection to music as a whole that you feel an emotional connection with the person who's creating the music as well, which is why I think people lose their shit with musicians more than they do with movie stars as well. Oh, I definitely had a very, very deep relationship with John Mayer when I was at university. I was like John Mayer is my boyfriend I 100 % believe that James thinks Taylor Swift is his girlfriend because he once took an illicit video of her when she visited the office hey okay I feel that that needs some clarity when we're talking illicit videos it wasn't that illicit it was just backstage at our office when she was walking through the studio and I got in trouble for it but that's not the end did you?

30:01did you get in trouble for it? of course you did because I put it on social media and I got it was suggested in very strong terms that I remove it from social media so I did oh my god i can't believe not from taylor swift's team it was from our internal uh pr team tay tay herself yeah tay did not drop me a line and say james do you mind james my close personal friend would you mind taking that down off the internet oh my god i can't believe you got told off i don't think anyone could tell you yeah they did and i was quite sheepish about it because i realized it was wildly unprofessional even when i did it so you said you knew what you were doing you knew it was illicit it's an illicit video it was somewhat illicit she did wave though and she She spoke to me.

30:36Oh, it was brilliant. It was an absolute triumph, I have to say. It was. What did she say to you again? I think she said, hi, how are you? Or something equally generic. I think so. I think so. But yeah, that's fine. I'll take it. Now, I'm going to have a t-shirt or a tattoo with that on it. It'd be great. Anyway, anyway, I have a question here from Chris. Now, Chris, this is a very long email. I cannot read this out, for I fear we would be here all day. But the gist of Chris, Chris's issue is, and I'll read the introduction. Long-time listener and subscriber here, writing for the first time. This sounds like a moan, I think.

31:10It's honestly not intended to be that way, but today's chat about the team's mixed at best feelings towards Clarkson inspired me to write about a long-time niggle I have with the pod. Obviously, a viewer's feelings about cast-slash-talent will influence how they feel about a show. I would really struggle to watch anything with Clarkson in it too, but I feel the level of debate doesn't get applied to other stars who frequently get mentioned. so he then goes on to reference jerry seinfeld who apparently has uh been quite spoken about palestine he mentions ricky gervais and obviously that trans skit which have been brought up many many times as well and obviously we talk about ricky quite a lot uh and i think his there's some very long paragraphs there and then basically he said i love the part it's highlight of my week i'm not having a moan uh i appreciate you can't be debating or making personal caveats about people every time you mention a name it is your job to evaluate and respond to what they've created and it's often essential to separate the art from the artist i just wonder where that line is or whether some nuance is required at least um i yeah i think he's absolutely right i think everyone and we've i we've definitely talked about this multiple times on the podcast before um i think everyone has to make their own decision whether it's listening to michael jackson's music reading jk rowling's books you know you kind of have to decide do i you know fundamentally have an issue with this person if you do have an issue with that person is that issue so great that you cannot separate the art from the artist and i think when someone is playing a role or someone is behind the scenes of something it's maybe easier to separate those so for example i think you could read harry potter as a book without necessarily thinking of the person who wrote it and if someone plays a part in a movie you might actually say well actually i see the character of verbal kint i don't really see kevin spacey so it's not really an issue for me to re-watch the usual suspects for example.

32:51I would say when you're watching reality television and that person is playing themselves, they are just being themselves, what you're essentially doing is voluntarily spending time with that person. And I think that's a slightly different thing. Although I should point out, it's not Jeremy Clarkson's political views that make me not watch Clarkson's Farm. It's because it's a show about a farm and I find Jeremy Clarkson quite irritating. It's more that and less to do with his politics. I can overlook his politics. That's actually not the issue. It's more I think he's a bit of a bellend, and I don't really want to spend time with him.

33:25I mean, yeah. There's also a difference because Jeremy Clarkson punched a work colleague in the FAPS. I mean, you know, it was, I don't think, Jerry Seinfeld, or who was the other one? Ricky Gervais. Ricky Gervais. To my knowledge, they have no public outbursts of violence. And I think his history is what I think of when he pops up on TV. So that's, it's a very personal thing. You're right. It's like, I just take against him. But having said that, as I've said that, I do watch She Wants to Be a Millionaire and another brilliant episode the other night, by the way, guy got to 500 ,000, threw away about 180 ,000.

34:04And then Jeremy stood up and punched him in the face and he didn't get the next one. More or less, yeah. No, he didn't. He didn't. So it's just specific. Yeah, I don't have a, I mean, I don't feel great about the Jerry Seinfeld stuff. I think I've said that on here before, actually, as well. I've alluded to it. is that annoying phrase that we misuse. But yeah, all these cases are different, I think. But in terms of Clarkson, I kind of do watch him anyway. And I think James' point about him being, you know, TV shows made about him doing stuff in cars in the Top Gear days and now doing this stuff with his phone and saying stuff that is, you know, oh God, you know, anti-woke or anti-politically correct.

34:40I find that whole thing tiresome. So yeah, that's kind of why. But I happily watch him, having said that. So the hypocrisy is real. yeah it's really i think they hit they hit upon the point when they said it's about separating the art from the artist and if you are what to what level you're comfortable doing that because yeah and kay always says you know kay is a massive michael jackson fan absolutely massive and i think she talked about watching the michael jackson shows but i'm going to come back to um jeremy clarkson for one minute and just say this my i live next door to these amazing musicians i'm going somewhere with this right and they played at farm fest right they're amazing they do all the bbc prompt they do everything they're amazing right and they told me that they went to farm fest with their harp and their saxophone and all they were given or they weren't given it they were on stage and all they were given all day was one bottle of water and a packet of crisps so i'm just gonna say my weekly salary at power media yeah is that by the way is that jimmy floxon's thing farm fest it's not a random thing that you've associated with him it's actually his event no there's not not everything I say is completely deranged like they say there is yeah yeah so that's I'm just saying you know he is the kind of man that will only give harpists one bottle of water and a packet of crisps if they're playing he's directly to play but we should investigate at the very least since we are trained journalists yeah it's going to be an investigation okay one bottle of water and a packet of crisps yeah lucky he didn't punch them really yeah he is lucky he didn't punch them but yeah I mean you mentioned Michael Jackson that film has made so much money so clearly there is a massive amount of people who either don't care or choose to not believe, for whatever reason, his rather checkered history.

36:18But also, in that case, I find everyone's surprised at how big that film is slightly surprising. No, I always knew it was going to make a fortune. Yeah, it was massive. It needs absolutely still. There was never a doubt in my mind. Never been. Not one of the biggest cop stars in the world, before his death, after his death, etc. And also, by the way, someone made a good point to me. perhaps someone was saying lots of youngsters people 18, 20 teenagers going to see Michael the film and they were like oh you know what about all the stuff it doesn't cover like they don't know that those people don't read reviews do you know what I mean they're not going to know the ins and outs of what this film is until they go and see it so I don't think you can blame them it doesn't mean they're approving of the allegations against him I think it's just that they want to see a film about Michael Jackson full stop and whatever else that means anyway we're now discussing a film but I think it's like It's like R.

37:08Kelly, isn't it? It's like, right, you can never enjoy a single R. Kelly hit ever. Like, I Believe I Can Fly. You can never listen to that again because he's an absolute monster.

37:16Lionel Boyce:But people do listen to I Can Believe I Can Fly. I Can Believe I Can Fly. I Believe I Can Fly. You know what I mean? It's like they haven't cancelled Space Jam because it's R. Kelly. It's really, it's so hard because so many good artists do shitty things. Well, I mean, if you are going to hold people to a specific moral standard, you've got to wipe out the whole of like 80s and 90s rock music. I mean, it's a big chunk of popular culture you will have to eject. And this is just the stuff we know about. I think ultimately, as we say, it's a personal thing. It does a thing, a product, a piece of art give you the ick.

37:47If it gives you the ick, do not partake in it for whatever reason. But I do think it's a personal choice. Nice words from JD. Thank you very much. I'll send a bottle of water and a packet of crisps over to you later today, buddy. Payment for this podcast. Sounds like the title of a song. Yes. Bottle of water and a packet of crisps, please. That is it, because we've got bear stuff to talk about, some bear necessities, if you will. If you've got some messages for us, do send them to postbag at pilottvpod.com. Okay, it is time for The Bear. Yes, indeed. This is the fifth and final season of Christopher's Drawers, The Bear.

38:22We are going to spoil the shit out of this. So if you haven't seen it, do stop listening now. Sound the spoiler klaxon, please.

38:33please okay that was a klaxon let's get into it now we'd seen the first seven episodes of this final fifth season we have now seen the eighth one hour and i want to say two minutes or something uh final episode of this which is different so the first seven are real time they're set in one day and this is a separate one which takes place uh a few days or a day or some chronological period after that day uh what do we think do we love it do we hate it it's had mixed responses we should say and in fact one of the big criticisms of this final episode is people have said it is utterly superfluous and in some cases detracts from the previous seven episodes thoughts please i don't think it detracts from the previous episodes i do i did wonder why why we weren't given that episode to watch like you know when you're you're given the first seven out of eight episodes of the final season of a show and they're like but we're holding back on letting you see the finale.

39:28And that kind of stirs you up, doesn't it, into a level of excitement, thinking, oh, what's he got planned? Yeah, you think it's something really crazy dramatic, and if it gets leaked out, it's going to ruin everyone's experience. Exactly. Whereas it was completely superfluous. So I think it was absolutely pointless, and yet at the same time, I kind of loved it. So I think the previous seven are like a movie, aren't they? They're like a real-time movie, and they're just divided semi-randomly. In fact, sometimes the cut between the end of the previous episode and the arrival of the next episode is so sudden, you're almost taken aback by it.

40:05But effectively, they could have had one four-hour episode, and then the finale, and it would have been roughly what we get. I think the reason why the finale feels like it's just been added afterwards and it's just kind of trying to – it doesn't give us anything new. It just kind of reiterates all the things we saw happening across the previous seven ones. And yet there are moments that are really sweet. So I think when Marcus drives Luca to the airport and they have that moment together, everyone, I've said it before, I'll say it again, they're my favourite characters. Their relationship is so brilliant.

40:40And that's when he says the thing about, Luca says the thing about, you know what makes your restaurant special? And at that point, I seriously was thinking the answer he's going to say is you. So did I. Yeah, right? Now, am I not the only one? And I was thinking, and you know, maybe they're leaning in Kiss. Something like that, right? I did wonder. I did wonder. Because they have incredible chemistry together. They are clearly in love with each other, these two characters. Clearly in love with each other. But in the end, I think it's probably realistic the way they went. He just goes, the family, you know, family sort of makes it special, which in itself is such a cliche, right?

41:11You know, it's like, that's like Extenders, you know, level of, it's all about family, you know. That's such a cliche to say. And yet, I think because of their performances, they made that work. But I did feel like that was a wasted opportunity to somehow allude to how special their relationship and friendship was. And there have been so much. And there are loads of examples of that in the rest of the episode. So lots of people doing kind of loving scenes. But to what impact, to what effect? None of them revelatory. Just kind of all underlying. It was a bit like, and I think this is probably deliberate on the part of Christopher Story.

41:47It was like eating an incredible meal, the most incredible meal of your life, the first seven episodes. And then you end it with a nice cup of tea. You're saying it was like the little laughter eight that they give you on a plane. Yeah, it's like a little post-brand deal treat. Well, it's funny. So I think this final episode is an anti-climax. But I don't mean that it's anti-climactic, because I did not find that to be what it is. it's almost designed to be like a very small quiet soft emotional sentimental grace note which follows the climax because the climax is the end of service on that day which is a huge high and it's exciting and everything happens and this feels like a denouement like it's a little it's a little sort of like little thing as you say that you tack on the end and it's deliberately anticlimactic in feel and in tone but it is also i think exactly what i wanted and exactly what i needed like these beautiful little send-offs to the characters you know do i need to know that you know at the end of it that that richie and jess are an item no i don't need to know that but i quite like to know it do i you know seeing them on the plane together and holding hands like that was something that i wanted i may not have needed it but i definitely wanted it um but and you also had these lovely little grace notes all the way through the episode like finding out the marcus and luca are the spoon thieves you know again this is like it was a lovely do we need it absolutely not but it's it's lovely i think that's fantastic and just seeing how they all kind of sign off and they say go and it feels like everyone it was almost a little bit like the end of like fucking return of the king that everyone gets their little conclusion everyone you get to see how everyone lands and even when it's ambiguous uh and i really like the fact that you know bob ogenkirk obviously turns up and doesn't speak molly gordon turns up and doesn't speak i quite like the fact that claire is there so you're aware of her because it'd been weird if she wasn't there but that it's quite vague and you're like, are they together?

43:38Are they not? Is it unresolved? And it feels like that's quite in keeping with the feeling of the bear. And I quite, I quite like that. Oh my God. I, okay. I'm sensing that you, like, I think this was an absolutely stunning way for this series to power because it was, everything is not wrapped up in a neat bow. Okay. And I think you, what you're saying is totally right. The ambiguity is the charm because you're not supposed to end this type of series, if you've lived with these characters, you're not supposed to end it where, you know, Kami's now fully together because he's going to be an architect or whatever.

44:14He's going to go and do this in terms of, oh, he's got it together. Everyone's relationships are actually fine. No, yeah, the Richie thing is great. Obviously, we've been waiting for ages to see him get to a place where he can be in the beginnings of a relationship with another person. and his character arc is just amazing. The other thing we must make mention of is, and it really brought a tear to my eye. So Rob Reiner, who sadly passed away before, and his character Albert, who was the man who was telling Ebra how to make all this money. And that was the theme that went through the whole of season four.

44:54And then this, and they have that beautiful, the opening scene where he's talking to him on the phone is obviously he's not going to be there and the cast have spoken a little bit about that and and the effect of that and how amazing rob reiner was to everyone on set and i just that really god i felt and he says as you wish yeah which is from the princess bride it's just it's just incredible the whole and i think i would have felt so cheated if they had wrapped up everyone's story i don't want it i don't want to know what happens i i want to see that they're out in the world but my criticism is actually that they go too far in wrapping up everyone's story yeah i think there's a lot of tying up of not so loose ends yeah because you just recounted half of them yeah i mean yeah i i think but i actually i like i like that it's ambiguous where it needs to be but it gives you the closure that you want like the fact that obviously tina's little brussel sprouts were like the you know save the day and she gets made sid second i think that's a lovely moment.

45:52I love the fact that, you know, Kami and Sid, you have that moment where they come together and they hug but crucially, and it was like, are they going to kiss? It's like, no, because I don't understand when people thought there was chemistry between them. They were never more than friends. I never got a vibe that they were anything more than that. But I like that there's kind of almost like a nod to that, which I thought was quite nice. And so all of these little things work. The spoon, the spoon bit, when Ibra discovers the spoons, that's for me one of the absolute best scenes of all the series.

46:18Like, that's so magical. No, don't get me wrong. I really enjoyed it. As I said, I think it is superfluous, but I really liked it. I do think it's trying to wrap up too many of the… I didn't get that at all. Yeah, there's loads of wrapping up going on. Even the mere fact that the restaurant's going to be fine because they've got… No, right. Okay, sorry. It is. I don't want to stop. I still feel like they're not going to be… There's potential. They're still always on the precipice of disaster. No. You didn't get that feeling? No, absolutely not. They've got two Michelin stars, right? the two Michelin stars that's going to that's immediately propels you into another stratosphere of making money out of your restaurant they had to sign the deal with the franchise the franchise I was going to say that would be what keeps them afloat yeah that would keep them afloat you're given an ending for every character in fact it's completely the opposite sorry Steph to what you're saying every character does get a resolution I just didn't get that sense at all I didn't get that sense I didn't think they got a resolution I thought they got just a continuation I agree with you the fact that at the end of all of this, Ibra is going to be the one that saves everything.

47:23Like, is, to me, incredible. But I still think, like, I just... And to run along that point, Kami gives it the nod as well, as if we needed that. But, like, there's loads of moments. You're right, but you're almost... I think you're agreeing with me, really. I know, maybe. I enjoyed the wrapping up. I think I like the fact that it's very conventional in a way, this episode, right? Whereas the previous episodes and the special previous episodes have been quite experimental and interesting and arty. You remember that episode that was at the beginning of three or four season where it was just like a tone poem and there was no dialogue, you know?

47:54He's done all that kind of stuff before, which makes the show so special. This was a fairly conventional wrapping up of the whole thing. And actually every single major character got a conclusion to their story when you think about it. And that's fine. I didn't think that. I felt like they got a stop on their journey. Maybe that's what I've... I feel like... I mean, we didn't follow them through to the end of their lives. No, but that's... No, I know, but I suppose that's what I mean. I mean that, yeah, it felt like there was, because we ended every character on a moment in their journey, but it didn't feel like the end, but maybe, I don't know, it just didn't feel like that to me.

48:29But their issues within this narrative of this show were definitely resolved. The overarching narrative of the show and all the questions surrounding it were absolutely resolved in the finale. And I'm not against that at all, by the way, as I have to reiterate. I just think it was, I thought it was an interesting creative decision and I'm still mulling it over in my mind as to whether I fully kind of believe everything in it but I really enjoyed it I just love being with those characters and for those characters to have achieved the success they have, as you say, Richie there was a lovely little moment where they flushed back to him when he was starting out and you're like, his journey has been incredible to use that cliche loads of amazing things have happened to all of them but it's almost too neat it's almost too neat but I still loved it I still loved it I think the seven episodes the first seven episodes are astonishing I think they are the best season yet they make it up into being the best season yet and I think the finale is open to debate I think it has more flaws and more questions but the first seven episodes oh my god talk about two of the fours those are brilliant One of my favourite things that you ever do Boyd is when you say something and then I say something which I think is the opposite and then you always say this you go I think I think you actually what you're saying you actually agree with me and I go do I?

49:46oh okay yeah maybe I do I think you do it's hilarious I mean it's annoying it's Boyd lighting no it's not it's not annoying at all I can only apologise but I do believe it no it's fine you're a greater person than I yeah I don't know I just in the way that I feel about it I suppose I just didn't feel because I I feel there's so much more to all of their stories that it didn't feel wrapped up in a boat at all for me but I take your point in that kind of maybe their major conflicts in there did get resolved to a certain degree. By the way, I see that Empire Stafford was sent to Paris to do some kind of event with Marcus.

50:24Yes. He actually plays Marcus. Why the fuck wasn't I invited to this shenanigan? I wasn't invited to it either. What the fuck? So, yes, Harry did go to Paris. They made pastries. He made a vanilla choux, which is better than a bottle of water and a packet of crisps, let me tell you. And they sat in a very nice restaurant and ate very nice food. and yes, he did in fact hang out with Lionel Boyce. Oh, I'm so jealous of all the actors and the cast to be there. You want to be there. It has to be him. Wow, that's brilliant. He got to make desserts with Marcus. Incredible. He didn't mention how many spoons they had to hand.

50:55So is Marcus, is Lionel Boyce, he can actually make his own proper patisseries now? Oh, I don't know if he contributed to the spread, but he was there as well, and they did it in the kind of bare kitchen. Sorry, I interrupted you with that, Greg. I've been meaning to mention it for ages. this yeah uh harry had a great time he must have been he must have picked something up when he was doing you know when he was doing the day must be some and not in the way like if you're in the pit you can now you know remove a kidney but like you know there must be something you pick up i bet i bet he can yeah yeah i don't imagine he's ever been asked that uh but look i i felt what's most interesting about this in some ways is that that this was a very self-aware final season of the show in that not only is it a great season but it also feels like it's deliberate course correction and almost like a mea culpa for the stuff they've maybe done wrong in the past i think part of that is the propulsion of it so they're almost like addressing the fact that people have said that the show has been a little bit too you know rambling and a little bit uh you know deliberately paced um but the other thing is this show sets up to tell you one thing and that's that sid is the lead and it's not carmy and i thought that was quite interesting because we've kind of like the whole cast has been dragged into kami's kind of personal trauma every season and sometimes it has bogged down the show but here it's like no sid was always really the person the heart of this she's a controlling source she shines in this and i love the fact that he walks away from the restaurant because i saw some people saying oh it's ridiculous kami's left like that's the whole point and he makes the whole speech like this doesn't make me happy and i'm not sure it ever did like he doesn't like being a chef he's never liked being a chef he associates it with stress and trauma and abuse and all this stuff.

52:32And he just needs a clean break. Although, on a slight side note, I would say, if I had invited a young man into my office to be an architectural intern and he had given that interview, I'd have fucking called security and had him thrown out of the building. I'm just saying. And, furthermore, it's still ambiguous, I think, isn't it? In the end, he's sitting there, you know, sitting there in his chair, thinking about life, thinking... It's the peas, isn't it? It was the peas. When they mentioned the colour of the peas, he lights up. Yeah, exactly. So I think he's still, I don't think he's still, I think there is ambiguity there.

53:04Sorry, Boyd. Yeah, are you saying that that wasn't wrapped up neatly? I am saying that. I just want to check because, you know. I'm saying it wasn't wrapped up. So I'm sorry, I'm just sorry again. Let's just go back. So what you're saying about everybody's story being wrapped up and it was all delivery, but not Kami's. That's what you're saying. I'm just saying that what you're actually saying, Boyd, is that you agree with her. I feel like you'll just agree with me. Would you think it's wrapped up or not? No, it's not wrapped up at all. No way. You don't think it's going to become an intern at a...

53:34No, I think that whole point of that scene, which again, I may be completely incorrect. I thought the whole point of that scene was him reflecting on the fact that how much he could see that he didn't have what they had, which is that true love of it. And you know, there's that great episode, that great scene with Tina and Sid where they reflect on that evening and they're talking about how awful it is and they both talk about how much they loved it. And Tina says, but you know what? I kind of loved it. And that's what he is never going to have because it doesn't represent that for him and I don't think it ever did, which he would like it to, but it doesn't.

54:11It was wrapped up. So in many ways, Brida, I think you're agreeing with me. You think it was, I don't think it was. No, I just think that scene was very deliberate in him being reflective of how those other people felt. Am I the only one who thought that? you know the whole do you remember there was the whole thing about Jamie Lee Curtis his mum finding that book of all of his recipes and all of his notes and his illustrations I thought that was going to be she suggests that a publisher comes in and publishes a book by him I thought it was a book the whole way through that scene that he was talking I thought he was going to talk about a book or he was pitching a TV show called The Bear that would have been the most terrifying thing no I thought it was I thought it was a book I 100 % thought it was a book or he was going to become an illustrator yeah there was a kind of slightly pointless that scene where she's just following through his stuff and there's no conclusion to that.

54:57My one, there's one thing, and it relates to this, that he has shown literally zero interest in being an architect. Oh, I know. That's why it was so surprising. Not even like a hint of like, isn't this building incredible? Like you never see him like on journeys where he's going, do you know what I mean? Like this is really, you know. I wish there'd been a line earlier in the episode where he goes, isn't this building incredible? so the setting up love these Greek columns that's so good I'm not wrong am I like we've never like out of everything you'd think he was going to do like and also you see this is what I mean I thought I sat there thinking you're not going to become an intern anyway you fucking liar it's like no way is he going to be he can't do that that's not him that's not his personality you know whatever he's going to do so I yeah I thought that was I thought it was a funny scene but a funny scene if not ambiguous the same

55:57what else is there to discuss now kami makes a joke in the final episode that was exciting kami has a sense of humor who knew when he's like oh my god we're stuck in the freezer and he's like oh yeah yeah yeah which is acceptance of his being stuck in the freezer the worst thing that ever happened to him in the series yeah indeed indeed because this whole show has been all about him working through his trauma and then you've had like things like because it's always been like adversity as metaphor for internal trauma and strife isn't it like and i think this series like they almost nod to that because you got the storm you got the pipes you got everything happening it's like is it a metaphor is there a metaphor somewhere i think i can detect something is there some text here uh but i quite like that i like the fact that they're almost like nodding to all these things that they've been that they've been criticized for in the past and one of the things they've also been criticized for i think a lot of the time is sidelining their own ensemble in that the idea is that when he takes over mikey's restaurant carmy keeps the beef people there and but it feels like the show was always more interested in the cameos and it feels like a lot of those characters got sidelined so i like that they get more to do do you feel like it does focus on the ensemble this time oh god we have to talk about that scene where ibra's talking to the gut the beef guys and they're talking he's talking about what he's going to how he's going to say to and they were like i'm gonna fucking i'm gonna kill him i'm gonna do i'm gonna do this if he says no i'm gonna cut him off i'm gonna shoot him in the face and ibra just goes i don't i don't want you to kill him i just want him to say yes that's such a great scene also the way that he keeps bringing up his blue eyes your blue eyes will not intimidate me when he's talking to himself oh it's amazing yeah that's very very cool i like that a lot um i also love the fact that when richie uh is asked to cancel reservations he's just singularly incapable of doing it oh yeah you No, he's not going to do that.

57:44But those stories, he has to deal with that, to be fair. I think he's flown in from the other side of the world. Yeah, I mean, that was... And I love that they bring it to the card table and then he puts people in the kitchen. I mean, it's genuine genius. Eben Moss-Bacharag is, without doubt, the greatest telephone actor of our generation. Like, nobody does telephone acting, one-sided telephone acting like Eben. He's unreal. Did you know that the weatherman character who's at the dinner... Oh yeah, who is that? He's a real Chicago weatherman. Oh, is he? Playing himself, yeah. He's a, so like Chicago viewers would have recognised him massively.

58:23Tom Skilling is called. Okay. And I loved his interactions with the big guy where his name is. It was really funny. I know that scene where he kind of suddenly takes their order, dives in, and has long stories about what they're ordering in the background. Oh, when one of the Fat Brothers has here. Yeah, brilliant. it uh yeah i i i just think it was just a lovely lovely send-off to it and and did but were were either of you at any point like hoodwinked by the kind of fake out when she's like did we get a star and carmy's like no and i was like it's so obvious what he's gonna say that was like that pause goes on forever and he's like you got that was like the moment in the x factor when you know they go and the winner is yeah you knew yeah but fair enough I think that guy the guy who called them from Michelin is the real Michelin guy as well I believe oh really oh that's interesting I like the fact that they're playing to him all the way through the previous seven episodes and then and then it actually wasn't him and he'd come previously it's like in an episode that we'd seen okay fine I thought that was quite fun the other thing is that and we I think we talked about this a little bit and we didn't mention this when we reviewed this but we said one of the big things about the bear all the way through has been the music, right?

59:38The needle drops have been a massive part of this. And crucially, they went a different route for this season. So this is entirely a score. It's credited to Hans Zimmer, but it's not him. It's Christian Lundberg did it. It's produced by Hans Zimmer. Yeah, but it's definitely credited to him, isn't it? Yeah, but he's not the composer. Yeah, Hans Zimmer produced it. Christian Lundberg composed it. And it feels like... And it gives it a very different vibe. but I also think for the real-time format it was brilliant yeah it was brilliant I was banging on about the needle drops before yeah before I watched the whole series I was thinking oh you know there's about two more needles there aren't any at all no but I thought it worked perfectly because you had the relentless clock kind of ticking away of the clock um in all of the music and then it kind of built and built and built and then I thought it was fantastically well done yeah that whole soundtrack.

1:00:33Yeah, it's very good. So, yeah. So, are we saying a triumph for the final season of The Bear? Is this where we're landing on it? I think it is a stunning, an unresolved or incredibly overresolved triumph. Depending on who you ask. All the bows are neatly tied in a triumphant way. Except for Kami. Except for Kami. Who may or may not become an architect. Yeah, who may or may not be allowed to become an architect. Something he's shown zero interest in. in every season. I mean, honestly, I don't know about an architect's office. I thought he'd end up in a therapist's office. That's where he probably should have gone, but you know, fine.

1:01:09Yeah. Fantastic. Right. That is almost it for our discussion of the bear. There is one more thing that we're going to mention, but I'll get onto that in just a second. Suffice to say, we will be back in your ears for the regular podcast on Monday when we will be reviewing what we are able to review, which is not an awful lot. We're going to be doing Human Vapor on Netflix, The Dark on ITV, and we may watch X-Men 97, but Boyd's anti-animation bias has already exerted itself when I suggested this morning, and Boyd said, I wouldn't bother with that. And that is a direct quote, but we are going to bother with it, folks.

1:01:44We are going to. We're going to review that on Monday's podcast, despite Boyd. That is going to be a slog. It's only a slog if you watch it, Boydy. It's only a slog if you watch it. But as we round off this bear special, I leave you with something very special, which is Harry's Parisian chat with Lionel Boyce. Unfortunately, you do not get to have his vanilla roux or whatever it was that he made. Vanilla schwa, what was it? Shoe. A shoe. I don't know. Some kind of vanilla dessert. I don't know. Pastries, whatever. But you do get to hear, this is Harry Stainer, Empire's Harry Stainer, talking to Lionel Boyce, a.k.a.

1:02:19Marcus, in the kitchen about his time on The Bear. Congratulations on an amazing fifth season of The Bear. It's so intense. We were talking in the office the other day that there are so many great shows that have been ending this year. Have you ever done an exit interview for a job? No. So an exit interview is where you pretty much you go into a room and you just kind of talk about the experience of working where you've worked. So I wanted to do that with you for The Bear. Okay. And so one of the first questions I wanted to ask was pretty much like, you've had five years of this show, you filmed every year, which is a rare thing for a TV series.

1:02:53Is there a memory you go back to that kind of encapsulates the whole experience of working on The Bear? Is there like a day on set that you're like, that was that's the one that brought me like the most joy i feel so hard with this show because i

1:03:05Lionel Boyce:that's why i'm so grateful for it there's like so many of those experiences where i think those are constantly happening there's like so many micro moments where you just any day on set everyone's always i think everyone's just so proud of what we're making and everyone loves these there's so much love on set that any day a random 4 p.m i look i just kind of like look out and like someone has zoomies and someone's cracking jokes it's like the moments where it's like towards the end of day and things are starting to fracture but it's still everyone's still performing at a high level but it's getting silly i think about that there's like maybe i think it was like season three maybe it was a day where um i think it was io who drank some coca-cola and and just like started literally pounding the ground so hard you can hear the ground thumping on the set and it's It's just like, I don't know.

1:03:54Lionel Boyce:I could go down, like, shooting season one, episode seven, when we did the one-er, where I remember it was one of those rare moments. I had never been a part of something like that, where every single person is involved in every department. Everyone has something on the line. And when we're done, when they yell cut and we got through the takes, everyone's celebrating because every department had did their job. And it really felt like a headless horse. And I think that's why it's hard to choose a moment because there's so many of those things just sprinkled throughout Every single season every single week of every season and I guess it when you have like something like that Which is like the most high-stress version that where it's like a one-er and you're doing stuff in the kitchen What's that compared to something like I rewatched the Bears episode the wedding episode?

1:04:36And it's like the first time that that cast is like everyone there is like is together And it's like the kind of the first time you're expecting it to all kick off like the fishes episode What was that day like in terms of it? Because it's such a calm episode, much like Marcus. It's a very like chill. So that one must have been nice to film that one where it's not all of you shouting at each other. Yeah. Kind of like a calm, a calm episode.

1:04:58Lionel Boyce:I know it's funny because it, it's the irony is it feels no different than the stress episodes because in between takes, we're sitting down hanging and just throwing banter. But the difference was there was so many chairs and so many people. So I was like, this is cool. because it's like the extended family of the show who are like integrated with us and like the conversations are a little bit different and then we also get much better like uh crafting snacks when we have like the extra people there we got like some kusama brought over and it's like all right yeah this is nice yeah exactly it's better when we get like the heavy hitters there nice i was going to say as well so marcus has paid like made so many amazing dishes you're so involved with that over these five seasons what's the thing that you've been made or had made on the show that's tasted the best?

1:05:45Lionel Boyce:I think probably tasted the best is the I think the chocolate cake uh was the one that like everyone like raved over and we I was the only person who didn't get to taste that one there's some focaccia though that we were like I think uh last season uh Marcus is uh making focaccia maybe season four season four and season five I think but Courtney Storer who's who's the incredible culinary producer, she's like a wizard at making focaccia. So I've made it with her. I've learned from her, but she liked the fresh focaccia. I think that was that. And like some butter is just simple, like out of this world.

1:06:23Lionel Boyce:Yeah. So if that's the food you could take from the set, and I'm not saying you did take anything from the set, but if you were able to take anything from the kitchen of the bed, did you? Or could like, what would you have to have taken? I'll tell them myself. I took as much as I could. I'm right. You should. Yeah, I was like, yeah, like, I'm not going to be too cool. I feel like I'm OK with being earnest and being like, I love this show. And I love I love like collecting physical things and like keeping them at home and stuff like that. So, yeah, I like took a lot of stuff from Marcus's wardrobe.

1:06:50Lionel Boyce:I took some of the other like the aprons, just all the good stuff. And I was trying to take my chef kit, my Marcus's like chef toolkit. They didn't give it to me. I think I think they were like, he's doing too much. like let's hide it from them just wait now that this is out you should go back to them and be like hey like no i'm gonna text them i'm gonna i'm gonna send them excerpt of that and i'm saying so what's up yeah i need it yeah um i just wanted to uh ask you um so of all these amazing people you've worked with over the show if you could pick one person from the show to work on another project with who would the person be and what would the project be i feel like that's how you've written with a on the show but i was like there's so many great people involved i think that's the thing is hard because I feel like in the way my brain works is I was like I just daydream of like all right what's the I want to work with all these people so I'm like what something me and Evan can do what's something me and Jeremy do me and I are going to do something I would love to do something Liza Abby El Maddie everyone all down the list I I truly feel grateful because it sounds like when people lie and say like yeah we love being with everyone it's truly like it's hard to choose because everyone's immensely talented and great at what they do and yeah I feel like I would I'm a collaborator by nature so I was like I think I would choose every single person it's hard to pick one was there anyone in the show you didn't get to do a scene with that you would have liked to yeah it would have been cool to do a scene with Jamie Lee Curtis I would have been you don't cross over in the wedding episode do you no we never cross over there's a moment this season where I thought that maybe and it's funny because she joked about it she like whenever We'll be on set, like it's been a couple of times we've been on set together and she'd be like, yo, what's up?

1:08:35Lionel Boyce:Like Donna and Marcus need to have a scene. And I'm just like, I don't know what world it would make sense, but it would be cool. So I would have loved to have the opportunity to do a scene with her. That's the goal. That's the dream on the next one. Try and get to work with Jamie Lee Curtis. We all have that dream. I also wanted to, I love the episode Worms and it's probably my favorite episode of the show. I like adore it. What's the experience of writing that? Has that changed how you approach Marcus as like a performer after that? Because then that gives you like a taste of actually like working, writing on the show.

1:09:04Did it kind of change how you came to Marcus as a character after knowing what the process or what it goes into writing an episode?

1:09:09Lionel Boyce:I think it's funny because it's not that it changed it. It just made me feel like, wow, we know this show so intuitively. It was cool because I think I was like really nervous to do it. I was like, I don't think that this thing is working with me doing one thing. I don't need to like rock this boat. But doing it, it was like it just made me have a deeper appreciation for the genius of the show where I'm like, the point of these episodes is to like like you watch these pod episodes and it reveals more. I feel like the goal of those, if you watch that episode, you can watch the first episode of the show and like understand this character in a different way.

1:09:48Lionel Boyce:So it just made me realize like how powerful Honeydew was. I think it just like kind of added a layer of perspective and allowed me to zoom out. I think it didn't change anything about my approach to the show because I feel like I just applied what I knew and brought that over. And that's why the episode is so great because you can feel like you're yours and Io's hands on the episode. Yeah, and it's just really Chris and Joanna and everyone's trust in us being like, it's no different because they're like, you know these characters so like you guys can like do this and you guys have read every single episode.

1:10:20Lionel Boyce:So, you know, like the structure. So, you know how the episodes generally move. So, yeah, like just go ahead and do your thing. Well, it's a fantastic season. It's been an absolute pleasure talking to you. Yeah, thank you.